E326: 헬렌 로러(Hélène Lawler) - 스타트 버튼, 스톱 버튼, 그리고 각성도, 오 마이 갓!

Our dogs communicate with us through behavior, whereas we tend to communicate through language. So because of this natural kind of tendency that we already have going, a start button in training is something that we set up intentionally so that we can check in with our dogs about what we're about to do. So it gives us the ability to ask our dog, do you want to do this? And then our dog can answer yes or no. So is that different or the same or kind of like, how does that compare to like a ready to work signal or kind of an arousal check? Like how do those things all kind of fit together? Okay. So I would, I would say that a ready to work signal and a start button are pretty much the same thing. So let me give you an example. A lot of people will, well, one, a very simple start button would be you're, you're about to start training and let's say you're, you're, you're at your training setup and your dog's kind of looking around all over the place. And then your dog look gives you eye contact and looks up at you and makes eye contact. Um, and that's the dog saying, yes, I'm ready to work. Um, so that would be a start button in, and then you can then ask your dog to do a behavior in rich in exchange for that. So I, I, in that sense, I'm not really, um, sure how everybody uses a ready to work signal, but to me, that would be a very similar idea. An arousal check, however, would be different. And the big difference is, uh, we can talk, we'll talk a little bit more about this. I'm sure, but a start button, you're asking your dog, do you want to do this? So let me say the same example. I'm, I'm at, I'm got my, my, I'm in my training room, something really simple, uh, like a simple context. You're at home, you're in your training room and your dog, um, you bring your dog in, you're, you're set up to train and then you go and you stand next to a prop you want to work with. And your dog's kind of milling about the room and sniffing. Um, and then, and then comes over and, and sits down and gives you that eye contact, which tells you, yes, I'm ready to go. And so that could be your start button as again, a start button. That can be something that has just emerged naturally. Um, and, and you, and you read your dog that way, or it could be something that you've taught your dog when you come over and do this, but you, you understand you and your dog have this conversation going where, when the dog comes over and sits next to you and gives you eye contact, you know, that they're saying, yes, let's go. Um, whereas an, an arousal check is not, we tend to use arousal checks where we don't

tend, we will use an arousal check for dogs that we, that always want to do things. Right. So your dogs always go, yes, yes, yes. You're, you know, the answer is always going to be yes. So we're not asking our dog, do you want to do this? We're asking your dog, can you do this? And we want to check and see if the dog is in an optimal arousal state to do the work. Because some, you know, we have these dogs that are always switched on. They're like, they're just in all the time for everything. And that can be great, but if they're, they, they can be excited to do the work, but if they're not in a, in a, an optimal mindset, they will, um, make mistakes or we'll have arousal problems as we go forward. So we want to check in with their arousal level. Um, and so we're asking a different question than when we're asking, we're doing a start button. That makes sense. Uh, what about a stop button? I haven't heard that one before. Okay. Um, a stop button is, I don't know if I've heard other people call it that, or if that's something that I, I I'm sure other people have called a stop button, a stop button. Um, but, um, I just, I, I, I also labeled it, uh, the behavior of stop button. So a stop button is simply a behavior that our dog does to let us know they need to stop what's going on. Um, either stop training or have us stop what we're doing depending on the context. So a simple example would be, again, I'm in my training room. I'm doing some training with my dog and, um, my dog in the middle of doing something gets up and walks over and sits on her platform. Um, and if that's a trained stop button that tells me my dog needs a break, maybe she's confused. Maybe she's tired. Maybe she's, um, needs more information. Maybe she's bored for whatever reason. She has the option to opt out and just go sit on her platform. And, um, uh, and, and that's information for me that we need to take a break and then I can, I can explore why that is. Um, and, and, uh, to give another example of how this all works, I love the, um, I don't know if you're familiar with Shrag Patel's bucket game. Um, and for anybody who's listening, yeah, you can, you can Google that and see how that's worked. And that, that would be a great example for people to check out that's used in, in, uh, husbandry. So we use, uh, it's very commonly used, uh, start buttons, uh, are used a lot in husbandry. Um, and, and the, and the, the bucket game, what the bucket game is, is you have a little bucket of food and your dog understand, I mean, you have to train this, but your dog looks at the bucket of food.

And when the dog is looking at the bucket of food, that tells me the human that it's okay for me to do the, the husbandry behavior that I'm working on. So let's say I want to clip nails. So my dog is staring at the bucket. I can pick up her foot and I can clip the nails and, um, and the bucket has food in it, but she knows she's just looking, watching, and then I'll, I'll reinforce with food, but she's looking at the bucket and I'm clipping the nails. If the, and so looking at the bucket is the start button. Yes. Let's let's do this. You can go ahead and pick up my foot and you can clip a nail. If my dog breaks eye contact with the bucket and looks away, that's a stop button. That means stop. And I immediately stopped doing what I'm doing. And so the dog will look, uh, and I, I know when I do this with my dogs, um, they will look at the bucket. I can usually clip. I don't try to clip a lot. I'll clip one or two nails and then I stop and reinforce, but they, they have total control. Um, and they can immediately, like if, if they're a little uncomfortable or maybe their foot, I'm twisting their foot. Cause that happens where your nail and you don't realize it. They look at me and I immediately put their foot down. Um, and then they'll, they'll look back at the bucket and then I readjust and I keep going. And so, and the dog can go back and forth. And if I find my dogs looking away all the time, I'm like, okay, she just doesn't want to do this. It's fine. And if she never looks at the bucket, then I just never start. So looking at the bucket as a start button, looking away from the bucket is a stop button. And that's my dog putting, being in total control over what happens to her body while I'm working with her. Okay. So what does kind of having these pieces in place? I think we're kind of getting at it already, but what, what does kind of having these pieces in place do in terms of like improving our training and our communication? You know, why are they important pieces, um, of the training process? So again, um, so for that example that I just gave it, it gives our dogs control over what happens to their, to them, to their bodies. It puts them, it gives them a lot of say in, in the training and the, and what they experience in life. And if you think about it, like our dogs really have very little control over their own lives. Um, you know, like once your dog is potty trained, like they can't even pee without us letting them out to pee. Right. They don't get to eat unless we feed them. Um, they, you know, they, they depend on us to like for, for everything.

And so by building in these consent protocols, the start, stop, start and stop buttons and the arousal checks, it really helps us give them some control, give them back some control. There's always a, there's a power dynamic that we can't not, we can't erase. I don't want to go into that down that rabbit hole, but, um, but in terms of like like we can still help them have more agency, more, more control. And the reason this is so powerful is, I mean, there, there are ethical reasons for this, but if we just stay practically in a training scenario, um, when we give our dogs control over, you know, what they, what they get, what happens to their bodies, what we're asking them to do when they get their reinforcement and so on. Um, what we, what happens is they, they, they, we get more buy-in. So it creates a sense of safety for the dog in the training. So going back to the bucket game description that I just gave, imagine, imagine you're in, uh, the dentist chair and, um, you have completely, you know, I don't know about you, but like, I haven't been to the dentist in a very long time. Cause that's just a, a scary thing for me. But, um, I had a lot of dental work when I was a kid and I just like, it was overwhelming and they would just like, you just had no say and they were just doing things and you were always waiting for the pain. And it was, for me, it was really scary. So that became like, I have a huge negative CER negative condition, emotional response to the thought of going to the dentist. But if I had like a start and stop button, if I could sit there in my chair and be like, start, stop, start. Okay, go ahead. Nope. Stop. And, you know, and I had total control over what the dentist was doing. I would probably be much more inclined to go and show up at the dentist office and have regular checkups. Um, and so this is sort of the, the, what we can offer with our dogs. And then the stop button is that the arousal checks, I mean, are also a way for us to really evaluate their emotional state, which is connected to their arousal state. And so we can, we just have this, it just gives us this way to have this more nuanced conversation around training and, um, around husbandry work. But I, I, um, I use it a lot of these behaviors more in, in, like in training for sports. And I like them because we as humans are messy and training is complicated and we often aren't clear and we often, um, are all in our own heads and we can miss our dogs telling us I'm uncomfortable. I'm confused. I'm, I, I, I'm overwhelmed. Um, this isn't fun.

And, and what happens is when our dogs are feeling this way, first of all, they can build up a negative condition, emotional response, like me to my dentist office. Cause they didn't give me that option when I was a kid. Um, so they can develop a negative CER to training, which we absolutely, you know, that's, we definitely don't want that to happen. Um, but they also, what they, our dogs love us and want to please us and want to, want to participate. And I, you know, most dogs like want to be in the game, but when they don't have a say and they're uncomfortable, um, that, that internal stress starts to build up and then they go into over arousal. And then we have a dog who's in like in a fight or flight reaction or a freeze response. And by that point, we have a big mess on our hands and then we have to try and figure out how to unpack that. And all of those responses get built into our training too. Um, and so we end up with dogs who then start to automatically go into those states of over arousal just in the context of training. Um, and, and then that's just, you know, that's a lot more work to undo and, um, and as, you know, really, if we can find ways around that or to prevent it or to, you know, um, avoid it in the first place, um, that would be great. So giving them that, the consent protocols allows our dogs the opportunity to tell us that they're uncomfortable, that they want to stop. Um, uh, or, uh, and the arousal checks give us an ability to evaluate where they're at, um, before it gets to the point of being a big hot mess. And so we can make the fine tuning when everybody's still, you know, in a relatively calm functional state. And we can keep, you know, we can keep things from going off the rails because we can see when the, when the, you know, things are starting to go off the rails and we can either just stop or we can gently bring things back online. So it just gives us that opportunity to, um, to, to prevent the big blowups, to keep our dogs in a more optimal state, um, to keep ourselves in a more optimal state, because we of course respond when our dogs go off the rails, we tend to go off the rails. Right. So, yeah. So I just love them for giving us the ability. And for, like I said before, many of us humans get very caught up in our, in our head. We have all sorts of brain drama ourselves and we're so caught up in like the end results and the goals and all of that, that, that it's very, very easy to miss the subtle thing, the very subtle cues that our dogs are giving us. Um, and so while the start, start button, stop buttons and arousal checks are fantastic

tools for our dogs to communicate with us. They are also fantastic tools for us to be able to, um, stay more mindful, more present because we have a criteria we're looking for is my dog, you know, and if your dog is like, let's take a stop button. If you're, you've trained a train stop button as your dog gets up and walks over to her platform off to the side of your training area, um, that you can be like, you can't miss that. Right. Your dog suddenly opted out of training. You can be like, Oh, I wonder what just happened here. Um, and, um, whereas if you, if your dog doesn't have that outlet and then the next thing you know, your dog like takes off or shuts down or something like that, you have a lot more, you you've kind of ridden roughshod over what's going on because you're too focused on other things. So I think it really helps a lot at both ends of the leash is my point. You mentioned a couple of options there, right? So leaving, going to a platform, you mentioned eye contact, you kind of talked about some different behaviors when, when looking at those things, do we get to choose that behavior? Does the dog get to choose that behavior for start buttons and stop buttons? Um, do we have multiple depending on what we're training? Can you just kind of talk about some of that and pull some of those pieces apart for us? Yeah, sure. So the most beloved answer of all answers for dog training questions is it depends. Right. So, um, as I mentioned earlier, we can have what I call organic start buttons. And those are the things that our dogs, they kind of just emerge out of training. Um, so again, you might see like maybe, maybe, so let's say the stop button, your dog loves their platform and your dog start just naturally leaves and goes to her platform when in training, when she's uncomfortable. Um, the way we turn that into a stop button is you would go and reinforce, reinforce that, which may seem really counterintuitive. Wait a minute. My dog just left me to go get on the platform and I'm going to give her a cookie for that. Yes. Yes, you are. Um, and the reason is because your dog's going to get a cookie to stay and do the work with you or your dog equally can get a cookie by going over to the platform. That means your dog will be happy to go to the platform. Um, if she's not happy with what you're, what's going on in the training. And so that's a totally, that's like an equal value, um, uh, opportunity for her. And she's not going to feel like if I leave, I lose out on my chance to get the cheese. Um, and then, which then makes the cheese coercion to stay through more things that maybe she's

a little uncomfortable with. So in a situation like that, um, the, the, the stop button, um, may naturally evolve. Um, and then when we, so then we, we capture it by, by reinforcing the stop button and making it something that the dog can choose and know that she will, um, get her cheese for leaving the scenario and then get her cheese for staying. Um, so that would be, um, again, an organic, um, stop button, an organic start button might be, um, just that eye contact thing. And we, you know, you're out there, your, your dog sniffing around and then she's finally like satisfied herself with the environment. And then she turns around, she gives you, she looks at you, that's eye contact. So those are, so we can, we can capture the things that are emerging naturally from training. Um, and those can be really powerful and really useful. However, they don't always work, um, as effectively as we might want to. Um, so for instance, eye contact, what if like, what if your dog gives you eye contact for all sorts of things? What if your dog is giving you eye contact for, to feel safe and secure then, and right. And so then all of a sudden, um, eye contact becomes the signal to start. Let's say you're, you're at a trial and you want to go, you're going to start your agility run and your dog gives you eye contact because they're worried and you, you then launch them over a jump that can then not work. Right. And, um, the other thing is also, let's say, let's say you've got a trained, um, eye contact start button, uh, and then you go to the line, uh, I'll stick with the agility example. Um, how do you send your dog when they're looking at you? You want your dog to be locked onto the first obstacle. So eye contact in that situation is not a useful, it is not, it's, it can be a counterproductive start button, even if it genuinely tell the dog is genuinely saying, yes, I'm ready to go. They are set up wrong to be as effective as possible. Um, so in, in a case like that, um, you would maybe have, um, your, uh, a trained, uh, like you could use middle where the dog stands between your feet, um, and points forward. So you, you stand in front of the, the, the first obstacle with your legs a little bit apart and your dog, and then you ask and you just wait. And if your dog is ready to go, she'll zip between your legs, sit down and look forward. And then she's all set up and then you can just walk ahead. And that's her saying, yes, I'm ready to go. And she's set up correctly to start the, the, um, the activity you want to start.

So in situations like that, um, you often want to choose the behavior and train it rather than just use whatever is naturally emerging. That makes a lot of sense. Um, and I think probably not just for me, right? Like I think a lot of people probably listening to this and going, uh-huh, uh-huh. And kind of nodding their head and they maybe understand the whole thing in theory, but then it comes time to actually put it into practice and maybe things fall apart a little bit. So can you talk about why that can be hard, like actually taking and implementing some of this stuff and then maybe how to actually get started with some of them? Yeah, sure. Sure. So, so start buttons. Um, I remember when I first started hearing about them, to me, they sounded very complicated and overwhelming to teach. And I was like, I don't understand. Like I remember listening to a, I think it was a podcast and they were talking about teaching, um, horses to choose whether or not they wanted to wear a blanket. Um, and I was like, how can you even do that? Right. Um, but, but the reality of training start buttons, um, and stop buttons and arousal checks is that they actually are very simple to train. They're much simpler to train and practice than they are conceptually to get your head around in theory. I found anyway. Um, and so, uh, that, so I'm going to talk to a couple, I'll tell you briefly how to do it. And then I'll also explain why it still can be hard. Um, so briefly how you teach them. Um, so a start button or, um, I already talked about how you might capture, uh, train a stop button, but let's a start button and an arousal check. You do, you train them the same way. You basically decide on your behavior. It's either the organic or the trained behavior. You train it traditionally with like, uh, cheese or like, you know, food or toy reinforcer. I prefer food because I train everything with food. I, but I'll say, I'll use the reinforcer that keeps your dog in an optimal state of arousal. So if your dog like goes bonkers for food and is, can stay calm around toys, train it with toys. If your dog goes bonkers for toys, use food. Like you don't, we don't want, we don't, we're the whole idea is keeping your dog in a nice, calm mental state. So use whatever, whatever works for you, for your dog. And, um, and you teach them the basic, uh, behavior using a reinforcer. So let's stick with the middle example. Teach middle with cheese, teach middle with cheese, right? So you, you teach it at home. You get your dog is very, very until, you know, it's fluent.

Your dog understands when you stand in this particular, um, uh, position, um, maybe with your legs apart or your hands on your hips, or you give some kind of, of, of a cue to your dog. So they know it's time and then you wait. Um, and then they come and do middle and they get their, get, they get their cheese. So you get that fluently trained at home. Um, you take it on the road. So let's say you want to use this, um, you know, in a, uh, at your agility class or at a trial or whatever. So you want to bring it on the road to get into the context where you're going to actually need the start button. Um, once your dog can do it fluently, um, for whatever reinforcer food or toys in that context, then, so let's say middle line, your dog up in front of a jump, you're going to run an agility sequence. Um, so your dog lines up, gets, uh, uh, goes middle, you give them cheese, and then you release to the agility content, uh, to the first jump, first obstacle. Um, so then to turn that into a start button, you eliminate the cheese or the toy. So your dog then comes, uh, you stand, you give the cue, your dog comes into middle, looks forward at the jump, and then you release to the jump. So then what happens is being released to the work becomes the start button. Sorry, it becomes, becomes the reinforcer. And so that way, if your dog wants to be reinforced, wants, you know, just like if your dog wants cheese, they'll go into, they'll go into middle position. Now your dog will learn after you do this a few times. If your dog wants to start running agility, they will do the, the, the, the behavior. And if they don't want to do it, they won't do the behavior. And that's how we can evaluate. So if I stand there and I do my, my prompt to get them to come into middle position and my dog was like, doesn't line up and just stays sitting beside me. I know she doesn't want to be released to go do the run. And to me, that's then that's no. So, so the, the, the actual training part is, is quite straightforward in that respect. Now where it gets complicated is that people will then be like, are you sure? Let me, let me, maybe you didn't notice that I just asked you to do this. And they ask again and with a start button, what makes a start button so powerful is that no means no, no, doesn't mean, are you sure? No, doesn't mean, did you miss my cue? Like you want, so you gotta, you gotta work those things out. Um, so, you know, if your dog is like looking around the, the, you know, the arena and, and your, and your cue is like a hand signal and your dog isn't even looking your way.

And you do the hand signal and you're like, did she see it? Did she not? Do I do it again? Do I not? Um, that's where things get a little bit messy. So you have to have those sorts of things worked out where you like, okay, I got to wait for my, know that my dog is actually aware of what I'm doing. And then I give the prompt. Um, and then I don't, and then if my dog says no, it's no. So I, you don't ask again. So if your dog, if you go to the start line and you line up and you know that your dog is like aware of you, what you're doing, you give the prompt and your dog doesn't go into middle position. You say, thank you. And you leave, you turn around and you leave with your dog playing with a tug or whatever you would normally do at the end of your run happily with no resentment. So that's the hard part. That's the handler end of the leash part, right? Is that we have to be willing to take that. No, accept that. No, not be upset by the no. No, not be upset by the no. And not ask again. And so we have the internal work that we need to do to make sure that we can accept the no. And importantly, if we can't accept the no, we don't ask for the start button. Um, so a simple example would be dogs who don't like to get in the car and you have a start button to have for them to go into the car. Um, let's say you want to go to the park. You say you want to get in the car. Your dog says, no, you're like, okay, we'll just go for a leash walk around the block instead. Right. Oh, we have a vet appointment. We can't miss. It's really important because you have like a medical condition that you have to be seen for. Um, or I'm going to get charged if we don't show up or whatever the reason is. Um, you don't ask the dog, you don't ask for the start button. So like I have a dog who's like that. What I do when, when she has to get in the car and I can't accept a no, um, I pick her up in the house and I carry her outside and put her in the car. I don't, but we have a whole different approach to a car when I'm going to ask her a start button. She'll be off leash. I open the door. I ask she can get in the car or she can run off. But if I need her to get in the car, I like, if I can't accept a no, I just pick her up in the house, leash and call her on. And I walk over and I load her into a, into a crate, close the door and we go. No questions asked. Um, she's fine with that. Um, and well, she's not fine. She'd rather not, but you know what I mean? Like she just understands that. And, and because, because the two scenarios are so different, that doesn't affect the, the, the consent protocol.

It's just, she's just like, Oh, I don't have a choice in this matter. It's like when you're, you know, the kids like getting, we have to go to school. I'm sorry, honey, you got to get in the car. Um, so there are times like that, but in other situations, um, where I, I want to give them as much choice as I can. So where I can give a choice, I do. And where I can't, then I don't use the start button. That makes sense. Okay. So you kind of talked us through the teaching process. I know you've got some content coming up on this stuff. We've got a webinar that'll actually have happened the day before this podcast comes out, but should still be available for folks. Um, and then you've got a workshop coming up. So can you just talk a little bit about what's covered in each and if people join for one, do they need both? I mean, what, how can they decide what they need? Okay. So, yeah, so I have, um, so the webinar, which like you said, just, just, just got released or just, just ran. Um, uh, that goes over like everything we talked about today in this podcast, but in greater depth. Um, I go into more detail, um, about all the things we talked about and also into greater detail about, you know, how the nervous system works, why this stuff is important. Um, and at a very kind of like more granular level of like why these things work and why, um, and how, and, um, and then of course you get, you get some PDF downloads. Um, I include my, um, uh, handler mindset, um, workbook and guide as well as the PDF of the, uh, of the, of the, of the presentation. So people can, you know, refer back to that and have that as a tangible resource. So, um, that's, I, I, if you, if you, what I'm hoping is that anybody listening who's curious will be, you know, get some good information today. If you want more, um, the webinar, it gives you a lot, like it gives you much more detail in theory. Um, and I do give you the practical steps. And if you're definitely the kind of person who can learn from that, or maybe you already have enough context, um, or you're just really good at, um, figuring stuff out on your own, you should have everything you need. If you would like some more, um, feedback, um, the, the workshop gives you the step-by-step with video where I'm like, here, here's what I do. Here's some examples. Um, here's what it looks like. And, um, and then you practice it and then you get my feedback. You get, if you've got a, if you're a working participant, you get eyes on and, um, eyes on the, um, on your videos. And then everybody who joins can ask questions.

So it's an opportunity to get a lot of dialogue and feedback rather than just self-study. So the workshop is, is designed for that. And I had one more thing I was going to say about, um, oh, um, in the, uh, in the webinar, I also talk about the two big, the two most common questions I get, uh, about, you know, about start buttons, which the first one being, if I ask, if I give them the opportunity to opt out, won't my dog just start opting out all over the place? And the other one being, Hey, I've got a start button and it doesn't work. And I talk about why that happens. So those are, those are two other pieces that I dig into in greater detail. I mean, we've, we've touched on that here in this podcast, but I go into more detail also in the webinar on those. So some, some problem solving, and I'll do more of that in the, in the workshop too. Awesome. Any, um, other final thoughts or key points you maybe want to leave listeners with? Um, sure. So how about I just quickly summarize, um, the difference? Cause I know we threw a lot of information out there. Okay. So a start button is an, is where is, is something that we ask the dog to do, to tell us, to answer the question, do you want to do this? And importantly, these, a start button is really good for, um, what we call, what we typically call the stress, low, but a dog or a sensitive dog. So dogs that tend to shut down, um, get slow and sticky avoid and all of that sort of stuff though, that though they really respond well to start buttons. Um, a stop button is a behavior that is initiated by the dog that gives them control over what's going on. And this is also really good for this, um, for the sensitive dogs, but it's the stop button is also really good for the, um, so we talk about our like stress, low sensitive dogs versus are worked up or high, uh, stress high dogs. Um, and so the stress, low dogs are the ones that shut down the stress. High dogs are like the barky lungy, zoomy, you know, clownish, all of those like high energy buzzy behaviors. Right. Um, so the arousal checks are in particularly, uh, are, are, are particularly designed for the dogs that's, that are the stress high, like always on yes, yes, yes. Let's go, go, go kind of dog. And we are asking them, can you do this with the arousal check? Um, and all of the behaviors that, that, um, that we see here, the stress low and the stress high, these are all, all, um, behaviors that result from over arousal and the start buttons, stop buttons and arousal checks all work to help reduce arousal so that we have dogs that,

um, stay, you know, either return to or stay in optimal arousal so that we can, um, so we can achieve the goals that we're, we're trying to achieve with our training. Um, and, and one, one more thing I wanted to say is that, um, as much as I love these protocols, they will not fix everything. Uh, so specifically they won't, they won't fix handling and training problems. They will, but they will help really identify where they are, which is cool, right? If your dog's opting out at a point, you're like, Oh, if they, you know, when your dog has, feels they're comfortable, they can opt out. They will show you where, where they're confused or where they're feeling, where, where something's not quite right for them. And so it can, it can help, it can help locate and identify where you're having problems in your training. It won't fix it, but it'll show you where it is. Um, it will absolutely help your dog with resilience, um, and, and build communication and trust, um, and willingness to try new things. And depending on the dog, um, it may or may not help with environmental sensitivity. It really depends on the reason for your dog's environmental sensitivity. So if you have a dog that's just, you know, needs to feel like they have the opportunity to opt out in order to feel safe, to try to go into new places, then that they'll, that'll really help a lot. If your dog like has, um, like really deep fears or say sound sensitivity, um, it may not help so much there. So these are really wonderful tools. They don't necessarily fix all of our problems, but they can help us fix some of them and they can help us, um, identify where other pieces need to be put into place. And, and then I just love them for building communication, trust, and deepening relationships. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Well, thank you for having me back. It's always great to be here. Yeah, it's a good topic too. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Body. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. cop cop cop cop