Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 60: Dr. Josef Witt-Doerring

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because we're boosting these neurotransmitters. You know, these people, they have a deficiency in the neurotransmitters and we're boosting them. Well, it's a reasonable hypothesis. But the issue with that is that there's also a competing hypothesis, and that is that the drugs, and that is that there's no actual problems in the brains of the people, but the drug effect is simply masking the symptoms that the person is having. Now, that's a much less sexy idea, you know, and it's actually a lot harder to sell because intuitively, people don't like the idea of taking a drug to paper over a problem, to mask a problem, because it feels wrong. It feels like, you know, we're not really getting to the root cause. And it's also sort of linked in with ideas about, you know, maybe taking non-prescription drugs, things like alcohol, you know, when you worry about, well, you know, I don't want to do this to escape problems. You know, I also know that if people take these, you know, use this a lot, they can develop a dependence and they need to use more and more. And so when you think about the drugs out of this drug-centered model, people are a lot more concerned about taking them. But if you tell someone, well, you know, there's probably a genetic problem wrong with you, and this drug is going to go into your mind like a magic bullet and fix the issue, it can seem a lot more justifiable. It's like, well, I'm not papering over my, you know, my symptoms. I'm not hiding them or masking them. I'm fixing a medical problem. Now, Ivan, you mentioned Joanna's paper just a moment ago. And I think that was a big boom, right? I mean, that kind of exploded in 20, whatever, two, three years ago. Yeah, yeah. And so this was a really big deal at the time. You know, a group of researchers led by Joanna Mong, brief, and out at University King's College London, they essentially did a review of every single study out there that had looked at serotonin in depression. And so looking for correlations, you know, in these depressed patients, when we bring them in, if we draw the central spinal fluid, you know, out, and we look at the metabolites of serotonin, you know, are they lower? You know, they never found it, you know, they would do autopsies of the brains of people who had a lot of depression, and they would look for the concentration of, you know, serotonin receptors on the neurons, absolutely no difference. And then they also touched on really high tech brain imaging studies, things called functional MRIs, where you can look at

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different, you can look at structures in the brain, and you can also look at the way that the brain sort of, the physiology of the brain changes. And then they got all these people with depression, and they got normal people, and they could not find any reliable differences between them. Now, so what this means is that there is no underlying chemical problem that we're seeing with people who have depression, at least not one that we can test for. Maybe we haven't found it yet. But the idea that we are fixing well-known problems with these drugs is false. This doesn't mean that there can't be things out there like temperament. You know, we know that temperament is kind of genetic, but it's not this easily understood thing where it derives from this one thing in the brain. It's likely polygenic, meaning it's made up of multiple different genes. But that's not a disease. You know, this is just normal human variation that you get some people who are more nervous and some people who are more extroverted. Yes, like me having an opening to a podcast when I'm nervous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's just normal human variation. I mean, some people are taller, some people are shorter, you know, some people are more athletic and less. And all of these different things have survival advantages, and they're completely normal. And so what this, you know, this paper by Joanna Moncrief, it really brought to the fore, at least for humans, that when we are using these drugs, we are not fixing broken brains, we are papering over anxiety and depression with a drug. Now, and that and that made a lot of people very uncomfortable to hear that. But it's the truth. And that's why that paper was such a big deal. And so my like, follow up question to this is like, if the science was always that shaky, why did psychiatry and media and pharma and everything, why did they kept pushing it so aggressively? Because like, I mean, they had to have a little bit of an idea that that's not quite the case, or did they? Or how, why it became such a mainstream? It's just like, oh, yeah, you should, you go to the doctor and within five minutes, with the list conversation, I will tell it before before you answer maybe, like, I remember myself, way back in the 90s, when I first came to the States from Europe, and I broke with my girlfriend. And at that time, I had two young graduates from, you know, from school, psychiatrist and, and, and I still remember the girl looking at her boyfriend, it's like, we should, we should put him on something. And then they both look at me and I'm like, what are

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you guys talking about? And I can only imagine if at that moment, I was to accept that, which way my laugh would go from there on, how little I knew, and how much I would have trusted doctors, right? But how come that it's pushed so aggressively to everybody that it's hard to argue? Well, see, a lot of this comes down to commercial forces, right? And so anyone, you know, I mean, most doctors have known for a long time, essentially, you know, depression, you know, why do people get depressed? Well, you know, it could be due to life circumstances, or it could be due to maybe things we don't understand. And so I think we've always had this idea that there was this interface between maybe your temperament, and just the natural variations between people, and then also stresses in one's life. But what the drug companies wanted to do was they wanted to downplay the life hardship, you know, when life hardship leads to depression and anxiety, they want to downplay that, because that's not what their product fixes. They wanted to paint depression and anxiety as more biological than it was, because that's what they had the solution to do. And when you have a group of powerful companies who have billions of dollars of marketing spend, and in the US, they used it on television, you know, there, there are old ads from, you know, the 2000s, where there's this bouncing Zoloft blob. And it says in the commercial, black and white, you're going into these big, nice, beautiful colors, and you're happy. Yeah, I remember. Yeah, exactly. It's, yeah, yeah. And it says, you know, if you're suffering from depression, you may, you may have a chemical imbalance that's going to be fixed by these drugs. Now, I think for most people, it's understandable that, you know, a drug company is going to play shenanigans, and they're going to market things in a way that increases the, the amount of sales. But the thing that most people don't realize is that the medical community, especially the leading academics have been corrupted by the pharmaceutical industry. Most people think doctors get corrupted because sales reps for the drug companies, they come in and they bring them sandwiches. And, and because the sales rep is sexy, it's meant to convince the doctor. I'm sure that plays a part. But as someone who used to work in drug companies, let me tell you how the real corruption happens. The fastest way to, to excel in your career as an academic psychiatrist. Now, these are the people at Harvard, Yale, you know, UCSF, you know, the leading institutions out there and internationally as well. The fastest way to make a

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name for yourself as an academic is to work with drug companies. Now, the reason for this is they will let you run their clinical trials, they will write publications for you, and they will fly you around the world. And all of these things will bolster your curriculum vitae. And that will allow you to get promotions. But what this means is, is that for very competitive academics who really want to rise to the top of their profession, they, they're not going to speak out about the drugs, they are going to actively avoid saying negative things about it. Because as soon as they start doing that, they're not going to be supported by the drug companies anymore. And so the, the influence and the power of the drug companies has, has corrupted academia. And then the final thing, the final reason why you don't hear about negative stories about these drugs, is that most of, you know, for, for many companies, especially big ones, and you'll see this, when you watch TV, they're running drug ads, a huge amount of profit in media comes from drug ads. And so even them, they are going to be less likely to run any, you know, to support any negative content about, you know, that's, that's critical. And so it creates this, it creates this thing where you seem like a crazy person, if you start saying things like, hey, these drugs don't fix chemical imbalances, they're just masking the problems, people go, I've never heard of such a thing before, you know, I've only ever heard the opposite from people. But it's just essentially, it's just kind of like how everybody was, how everybody was laughing at Tom Cruise at 2005, right? When he was on that interview, it was like, there is no chemical deficiency. And everybody was like, Oh, that's a Scientology guy, right? And it ended up being actually... Yeah, he's completely right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so... Yeah. That's, that's just very difficult situation to get out of. But then let me, so, so if, and, and I don't know if that's even correct, but if, if depression, like in humans, let's talk about, so we don't talk about aggression in dogs, but depression in humans isn't caused by low serotonin. Do, do we, what, what are the SSRIs actually doing to people? How, how... It's gone. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, I mean, when we think about the things that make humans depressed and uh, I mean, we think about, um, I mean, the, the main ones that Sigmund Freud would always talk about, he says, love and work. And I think that's a great way to think about it. We are social creatures. And so relationships tend to be some of the biggest things that make

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us unhappy. Um, but we also need purpose. And so we need to be doing something that we like. Um, and, and so those two areas, uh, are significant, but then when we get outside of those things, I, I start to worry about, you know, drug use as well, especially overuse of caffeine and nicotine, but also things like cannabis. I also worry about medical problems that are missed. Um, big things can be dietary issues. You know, that we have a lot of people with dietary problems. Um, they have, they have problems with insulin because they eat poor foods. They, um, and so your physical health can also lead to feeling unhappy. And so those are the main ones that make humans unhappy now. So what are the drugs doing? Well, the drugs are disrupting your neurotransmitters. And when we're talking about SSRI type medications like Prozac, which I think is the main one that's used, uh, used in dogs. Um, they are typically inducing, uh, an effect of emotional blunting. Um, sometimes they're a little energizing and that can lead to aggression, but generally the effect is one of emotional blunting. And if you're someone who's anxious or you're, or you're feeling depressed and you're, you're being tormented by a lot of anxious thoughts, if you can blunt your emotions, you are going to perceive that as therapeutic. And that's why many people take the drugs and they willingly take them because they are, they, they are benefiting from that drug effect. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's where it goes. But it's not fixing, but it's not fixing the underlying problem. And, and when we start talking about long-term use, that's when we run into problems. Right. That's kind of like the, you know, how you mentioned, uh, um, I mean, Freud's idea. And, and there was this one again, like 20, 24 study that was really cool. The, I mean, just the title itself was amazing. Like, uh, um, what was it like depression, depression, difficult life's explained depression better than, than broken brains or something. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and, but we are very quick to, it's like when you go to a doctor office and when you go to the psychiatrist, you're almost very open to just prescribe me the pill, fix me with the pill. Right. It is. And, and I think it's, and I think it's because it's become so, um, commonplace. Everyone knows someone who's taking these medications now, and it seems so normal. Um, and, and the other, and the, and the, one of the reasons why people get doctors, uh, can put people on these medications so easily is that they lie to them about, well, they don't lie to them per se,

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but they leave out a lot of the, the, the, the information which people really ought to know before getting on the meds. I mean, and the main one being that these drugs have never been studied, you know, for, for longer than a year in a, in a controlled clinical trial setting. And, you know, when we have 50% of Americans on these drugs for over five years, you know, drugs, which clearly cause tolerance and dependence and the effects wear off, and you need to take higher and higher doses. And they, and so they, they're changing your brain. You know, your brain is fighting against them to stay in balance. Um, we've never done a clinical trial on these drugs that lasted longer than a year. And some people take these drugs for decades. Um, and, and so it's, you, there's, if people knew that they, they would know that they're really, um, they're really in the unknown, you know, they, they, they, and, and from what I see clinically as a psychiatrist, here's what happens to people when they take them long-term. You get some people, the drug effect will stay there and it will work for them. But then you get some people where it just wears off and they need to go on higher and higher doses to get the same effect. Then they need to get on more and more medications to, to maintain it. Um, and then we have some people who get worse. They develop a condition called tardive dysphoria, which, but it's essentially brain changes that make people that have, you know, high anxiety, low energy, uh, low and low motivation. And they get stuck in this chronically depressed state that's induced by the drug. And if we're not even talking just about what the drugs can do to people, there's also an opportunity cost about being on these meds. You know, what if, because you went on these medications long-term, you never experienced the impulses to fix your relationships or to, to go and find that job that you should actually be doing, you know, you need to quit the one that you're doing now. But what if it means you neglect a health issue that was making you anxious and that's just festering in the background? Um, I mean, if you don't fix these problems at their root, they get worse. And so I worry about all of the long-term problems, um, um, in these, with these medications long-term. And, and let me tell you this, this is the exact same with dogs, because before I got on this podcast, I did some research. I couldn't find a single clinical trial in dogs that went longer than six weeks. Right. Um, and so, and on top of that, they were based on

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surveys when you deep, dig a little deeper in those two studies, they're based on the owner saying how my dog feels after. Yeah. Yeah. And we're also told for, for as long as I remember that they're safe and effective. This has been like one of the major slogans, like, don't worry, just we will play with the dose or we can switch to a different medication, but ultimately we know what we're doing and, and it will be safe. You will be okay. But as you mentioned all this, like there is incredible side effects. And at least in the dog training arena, when I, when I try to work with a very difficult problem dog, that's been already for three years, I mean, dog's life is 15 years max, let's say three years, a young dog on floxetine for three years, gabapentin, trazodon and some other CBD, like just, and without any outcome. So finally everybody gives up and it's like, let's utilize it. It's nothing's working. We cannot change anything. And when I look at the dog, there is, there is just nobody. It's just this emotional blunting. Like clearly like we dog is very easy. You can talk nicely for a second and they start wagging their tail or they show you some excitement, something, and there is nothing. And from everything that I've listened and to you particularly, because you're one of the really specialists in the arena of tapering the meds. But with dogs, it's very difficult and there is nobody that can really tell us how, at least yet. But so the only easy thing, I guess, with the dogs is as dangerous as it is, is that with a human, you can, they can get close to being off of the medication and then things go very bad and they jump back in because they start to feel, as you're explaining it very well, I can actually let you explain this. But with the dogs, the way we, you know, it took me, typically it takes me about three to four months just for the dog to start to get a little bit excited about anything. Being like, even when you tell them, hey, don't be a bad boy or hey, you're such a good boy and you get the same kind of dull look from the dog and there is nothing to work with. And it clearly just prevents, in my opinion, for dog behavior modification, actual success because the dog just doesn't care. Like he's like, I'm, I don't care kind of attitude, which makes it very difficult to encourage or discourage any behaviors and, and get anywhere with it. But it was very nice the, how, how it gets so complicated, how, how people think some psychiatrists argue that it's, yeah, it's not addictive. It's very

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easy to, you know, leave it alone. And, but it's actually, that's not the case. Can you, can you tell a little bit about how difficult it is and what happens usually why people get back in it? So, yeah. So, um, coming off psychiatric meds, especially the antidepressants for humans, um, can be really challenging. So, um, there's a huge variation in, in what people experience coming off these meds. I, I talked to some people and they, you know, they've been on the meds for, you know, three, four years, they can come off in two months, no problem. They go back to their life. Um, in fact, I actually think that's the majority of people. Um, but there are some people that when they try and come off, uh, for reasons we don't understand, their brains are just not very elastic. They, they don't, they, they have a very hard time adapting to the drug being removed and then they can develop really severe withdrawal problems. And, and sometimes these can go on for years. Uh, it's a condition called protracted withdrawal and, um, it can, it can make the person very unwell. Um, it's, it's not, it's not the most common outcome, but it can happen. And because of that, I mean, that's what I do now. I find these people who are having a really hard time coming off the drugs. And then I do these very gradual, slow tapers to, to help them come off, you know, typically after they've failed to come off, um, quickly. Evan, do you have any difficulty getting the, you're getting the dogs off medications when you take over their care? Yeah. That's what I was kind of trying to say that, um, I, I don't, it's not difficult because, um, uh, um, I know of trainers that will just, just cold turkey kind of do it. I know that that's not correct. So I do take time. Um, but again, I'm trying to do it on my own to some extent. I don't see, like, what I see is I gradually start to see the dog becoming just reacting to normal life better. Like even, even if there is a, let's say a sudden noise in a bush and they're like, they acknowledge it and, and they start to, you know, just have much more normal reaction to, to everything, not necessarily being happy or, or being angry, but they, like, the emotions are kind of coming back again. Yeah. So it's very difficult to say, um, what happens with the dog, because we, I mean, no, no way to measure. And the only thing we're left, no way to talk to them. We're left with their body language and how they go in everyday life, what they do. Um, so from typically, and again, it's not everybody, some dogs are, you, you don't see this dramatic difference in

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behavior and mood, but the, the dogs that I work with, the really difficult dogs that end up working, coming here, they just very, um, flat. And, and so they're like, they're so flat. I don't even know if that's even a good description to, to describe it this way, but to where you don't really see, like, if it gets worse, what more it can be besides they, they cannot just go in a corner and start crying. Um, but they just don't get excited in a good or a bad way. They're just very, it's like, okay, yeah, you're petting me or yeah, you're telling me. And, and that makes it very hard to, to read them. The interesting thing is that the whole, uh, um, that the way the medications are coming into the dog world, it's really based on the human experience in psychiatry. And it's basically kind of copied into the dog world with the idea that it would do the same thing, but it's became such a common problem that, um, that the, to me, the most dangerous thing right now is that these medications are not, not that they are just overly prescribed, but they are so easily prescribed by anybody. Like, like any, I feel that any veterinarian doctor, a dog will come to the office and the owner will say, my dog is too rambunctious and he's charging other dogs on the street. And chances are, they may walk away with an SSRI prescription because the, and that's, I'm speculating here, but because the animal veterinarian behavior is, which they get some, uh, uh, extra school, of course, the, uh, extra school, of course, and they get educated on the medication. But the older education is exactly taken from, from human psychiatry. And so my, my assumption is that if, if they're using it, they can use it, then they can use it. And you can, I mean, you can get a prescription. Like, I, I know that I can go to any dog, uh, veterinarian with my dog and, and convince them. They're very easy. And on top of that, I will go online on, there is like this dog website that sell medications and stuff. And tomorrow I have it. And off we go on medication. It's really, really sad. And the sad part is that the majority of the dogs, and I'm talking the majority of the dogs, like I remember one of your, I don't know, was it a podcast, but you, you had some really good presentation at one place where you had a big circle and you put a percentage and you were talking how there is this 5% of people that really need it. And everybody else, there is a whole other ways of alternatives and and it's just harmful to do. And that's kind of where we are with the dogs.

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Yeah. Yeah. A lot of these dogs haven't really been given the opportunity to, to, to find a non drug ways of, um, of, of, of, of, of coping. And, and instead of doing that, you're putting them on drugs that flatten their emotions and, you know, and the same thing happens with humans. A lot of the people that I speak to at the taper clinic, they'll come to me and they'll say, I just, I just want to feel like myself again. You know, yes, I don't really feel bad emotions, but I don't really feel good emotions either. I have pretty low motivation, you know, I'm not that excited about anything or doing things like I used to be. I feel like I'm just, um, you know, um, sort of like, you know, passive, you know, just, just living, but not really alive. And, and they hate that feeling. And, and I guess, I mean, it saddens me to think, yeah. And I mean, it saddens me to think that, you know, you have this lovely dog, um, and, um, um, um, you know, it's having some separation anxiety or that, or there's some issue going on. And then, you know, the way we do it, the way we treat that is by blunting them. And I, I think you might've said this, Ivan, because I've been on your social media. It's like, if, you know, if you left a child alone in a house for like 12 hours, you know, and the kid, and the child became unhappy, would you, would you drug that child? You know, but that's, that's, you know, that's essentially what I feel like a lot of people do to dogs. Yeah. Yeah. And even, I mean, dogs bite each other, dogs can be aggressive to each other, but because a dog is aggressive to another dog or dogs, it doesn't necessarily mean that there is a chemical imbalance and that the SSRI will do something to resolve that problem. So the dog actually can change its perception towards other dogs because of, uh, and, and of course the, the, the proponents of the medications, they will very quickly hear, correct me and say, well, it's not the medication only it's in conjunction with some behavior modification plan. But my argument is that the behavior modification plan gets kind of stalled because you have nobody to work with because the dog doesn't just doesn't care if they do something right or wrong. Yeah. And this is one of the things that I, that I worry about with, with humans as well with, um, because they all, they often say, you know, you know, drugs and antidepressants are the best combination. And I guess, you know, maybe for some people that's true. If, if they're so depressed, they couldn't even do the therapy without, you know, getting a little nudge from a drug.

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Mm-hmm . But I mean, we're essentially talking about a drug that is going to affect your mood and your personality, you know, and, and how you respond to things happening to you on a daily basis. And if you blunt that, you're also going to have a lot less material to work with. In fact, a lot of the people that, that I, you know, when I'm pulling them off medications, if they've been on them for decades, they tell me it's, it's like they were, their, their maturation was stalled. You know, if they got on the drugs as a teenager, they're, they're learning to regulate their emotions for the first time, you know, in their forties, you know, when I'm, when I'm pulling them off and everything is coming back to them, you know, it's, it's not like they've really taken gains or taken a lot of gains from while they were on the drugs. It just kind of flattened things. Yeah. So they never really got to have that experience of having to work through difficult emotions and, and, and deal with that. That's really part of the normal process of maturing. And then, so we get it all when, when we pull them off the drugs. Yeah. So I, I just thought of something else, like with the dogs there, I mean, of course there is quite a few different ways people would do, and there is different dog training camps, of course. And, but the way I, and, and some dog trainers will approach problems with dogs. I mean, the first thing you want to do is try to get close to the dog, try to make that dog like you. So you create some reports, so you have some trust, so you can start to get somewhere. But the dog has to kind of be able at least to see it, if not actively search for it, at least to be able to recognize it. And, and so we would try to get a dog to play because play is one of the, I mean, I'm sure with humans it's the same thing. I mean, when you play, you show very good intention and, and especially when you like to play and you activate your body and the whole good chemical start to interact in your brain. It's a bit, and, and then you present a certain situation and so on. So you have play and you have food, you can use treats as rewards. But from what I know and playfulness is something that kind of gets also quieted down. Loss of appetite is another side effect of, so on top of having the kind of emotional blunting, you have a dog also that I cannot reach and say, hey dude, let's play. I have a ball. And he's like, yeah, okay, so what? And, and it's almost like my hands are tied until I can go and I can go through the whole process of taking the dog off and starting to see that dog, as I said,

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at least starting to react to the world around it being, well, what is that? Woof. Or, oh, somebody's coming. Oh, it's a, it's not a friend, but you see a brain that's actively responding to, to the outside environment. And I, I really don't understand why, I mean, what would be the, the approach when, when you have this emotional blunting or motivation loss, you know, like, I, I don't know, how do you approach to get somebody excited to look forward to life again in that state of mind? So, I mean, that's a really good question. I mean, for some people it will be just removing the medication because it is, it's impacting their ability to be connected with the world. You know, some of the humans, when I asked them, can you describe, they're having a lot of side effects to the meds. I'll say, can you describe what it feels like, um, to be you? And then they say, it's like, I'm watching my life through a television. You know, I'm not feeling the emotional responses to things. When I hear my favorite song come on, I don't get prickles down the back of my neck, you know, because it reminds me of my youth. When I hug my child or my spouse, it's harder to feel those feelings of, of, of, of connection. I mean, it, it, it actually just is. I mean, it is the effect of the drug that is, that is blunting the emotions. Or also it can create increased irritability and, and, you know, it can kind of go to a different extreme as well in some cases, right? Or, or... So this is the thing that's, that's, that's going to be challenging. Um, because dogs can't say that they're not feeling well on the drug, you know, that it's, it's, it's really hard to know. So with antidepressants, um, um, many people, I mean, they may or may not be aware of that, that, that they have this thing called a boxed warning. Now a boxed warning is the highest warning a, um, drug regulator can give for a medication. It means that when you, you get the drug, it has this big black box on the front of it and it says, um, you know, and it says what the risk is. Now for the antidepressants, it's that the drugs may make you more suicidal. Um, and, and this is crazy. People, people will think this sounds crazy, but this is, this is real when they've done clinical trials and they look at the rate of suicidal behavior in people under age 25, there are more suicide attempts in the groups of people who get the drug compared to the groups who get placebos. Yeah. So, you know, let that sink in for a second, you know, taking an antidepressant will make you more likely to have, uh, you know,

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a suicidal behavior than taking a placebo. Yet we use these drugs and people under age 25 all the time. You know, it, it astounds me why, why we do that. Um, now the, the reason these drugs can make people suicidal is that they can cause paradoxical effects. And so when I say paradoxical, I mean, it's like a random effect that just happens to someone because they have the genetic susceptibility. And the example I usually like to use to explain this to people in a relatable way is you could have 10 people sitting around smoking, smoking a joint, nine of them are giggling and they're having a, you know, they're laughing there, they feel relaxed and you get one person who becomes paranoid. Um, now what that's, what happens with antidepressants as well. You, you know, majority of people are feeling emotionally numb, which is the intended effect of the drug, but you can get one person who starts to feel more depressed or even more aggressive. Um, and, um, and if, and if that's already an unhappy person and they start to have this paradoxical reaction where they feel even worse, that can push them into a suicide attempt. Um, I know you were talking recently about the, the mass shootings too, which is another crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let me, let me, let me link it. And so, I mean, for me, I don't know how suicidal behavior might turn up in a dog. I imagine it could be self injurious behavior. Maybe they start to bite their, their paws or their arms, or they, they start to do something like that. But also, um, you know, what we've seen in humans and this is in the drug labels. I mean, the, it, it has, you know, aggression, hostility, you know, all of these things are already in there. They've, they've been observed to be these, these idiot, these, um, paradoxical reactions. And, and when, um, and, and, and these side effects have led some humans to do terrible things like mass murder, um, you know, um, you know, people strangling their family members, um, you know, you know, killing their whole families and then turning the weapons on themselves. These have gone to, uh, courts of law where juries and judges have heard all of the, the evidence about, you know, what that person was like right before they got on the drug, you know, how their behavior drastically changed and, you know, and then, and then usually how their behavior got better when they removed the drug. They juries have heard these, these, these stories and, you know, based on what we know about the drugs and the side effects, they have, um,

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um, they have let, let people off who have essentially, you know, harmed other people, uh, during these things. They've also, um, uh, allowed people to sue companies. You know, one man got $6 million out of Smith Klein Beecham, uh, after he, after a side effect resulted in the death of multiple family members by his father-in-law. This is a guy, a gentleman called Donald Schell. And so we do know that these drugs can make some people unexpectedly aggressive. And, you know, Ivan, when I was preparing for this, I was looking at, you know, one of those two studies that you had mentioned. And in one of the studies, they have a doubling of, um, aggressive behavior. You know, the, the, the dogs who got the drug, the, the, the Prozac, uh, aggression as a side effect was seen in 12% of them compared to 6% of them who didn't get it. Now, um, and so, I mean, that would just be another thing that people would need to be aware of, um, before putting their, their, their, their animals on these medications is if, if you start to see, you know, a typical aggressive behavior or violence, um, these are potential side effects of the drugs. Right. Yeah. It's a very, very difficult, uh, um, it's a really difficult situation. We, we are in, in the dog world, especially like, like some, some veterinarians, or especially the veterinary animal behaviorists, you know, because they, they have gone through the school that they know how they're supposed to know how the medication work, but, but everything they say is not how the medication work. And they get very angry when somebody says, well, there is this emotional bluntness or, or, uh, lack of motivation or, uh, numbness. They, they hate it when somebody says that. And, and very quickly, it just doesn't make sense. How can one medication, the same pill work for anxiety, for fear, for aggression, for OCD, for sure. It does something collectively to all these problems. Yeah. But it doesn't really address them in any reasonable way directly. It's not like you, you have a, a cough and you got a cough syrup, and then, I don't know, you have a headache and you get some, I don't know if that analogy is even better than, than what we're talking about, but one serotonin pill. So it's a great, it's a great analogy. And we use them in the same way in humans. We will give SSRIs to people with depressed mood, to people with anxiety, to people who have PTSD and, and, and trauma. Uh, we give it to, uh, women who have, um, uncomfortable periods and, and are irritable around their periods

50:05

because the drug doesn't work in any specific way. It is, it's a chemical blanket. It, you know, they wipe out emotions. I mean, so anything that's, that, that generally tends to make people anxious and, and, and irritable, it can, it just turns the volume down on the, on the, on your emotions. Uh, good and bad ones. It's just like cranking a knob down and it'll work for many different things, but not in any specific way. The tapering or tapering, like what would you think would be a proper way to deal with this with a dog? Like, would you have a slightest idea how that would, depending on, let's say, let's say a dog has been for two years on floxetine 10 or 10 milligrams or something. And it's about 50 kilos. I mean, 50 pounds. Yeah. Yeah. What kind of protocol would be a reasonable, because, and the reason I'm asking you is because I will, I will, let me back up some, something here. Cause I do have a school. No, I'm smiling because this is like, this is like the greatest question that I've ever been asked before to, to, to, to start talking about the art of antidepressant tapering with dogs. I love it. I love it. It's, it's, it's great. Because no, because it's, it's a real, real question. Um, I also, I run a school for dog trainers. I teach people how to train dogs and, and then we have like a monthly meeting with the graduate students. And there, there was a time when, uh, out of curiosity, I was like, guys, how, how often do you get, because they deal with problem dogs. That's why they come for training. So naturally the question was, look, how often you get dogs that are on SSRIs and everybody, every month has at least one dog on medication. The youngest one can be six months old, which is like ridiculous to even say that it has a problem. It's just a, a little puppy that doesn't know who he is. Then my next question is, when you talk to the owners, have they ever been told that there will be a process of getting away from the medication? Not one, not one single dog, zero. And, and that's why how, how, how do we learn how to do this if, if we decide to? Yeah. So, yeah, no, this is, this is a great question. Um, um, and so what I would, what I would say the most important thing would be is to try and get a sense of the dog's baseline behavior before you taper, because you're going to be looking out for withdrawal signs. And, and so what do we notice in humans, you know, humans will start to, to become more anxious. Um, and you know, they, they might have a hard time sleeping. Um, they can look dizzy as well. Um, and, and sometimes

53:24

they have like brains apps, although that's really hard to, to notice if you're configured, it's going to be hard to notice that the dog's having brains apps, maybe you'll notice some twitches or some, or some ticks. Um, and this is just assuming that the physiology of the dog will, will behave in a similar way to, to, to the human when, when, when you're taking it off. Um, so as I mentioned before, I mean, most people, um, can come off these, these medications, I would say in a couple of months. And so, um, that's honestly, that's, that's way too fast for what I do, but I talked to a lot of people and, and, and, you know, and then they can come off pretty quickly. The most important thing that you need to be aware of is that if the, so if the person starts to look like they're becoming very uncomfortable, you slow down the taper. And so that might be the same with the dog. If when you're removing the medication, you notice the dog is very irritable, um, maybe very on edge, you might want to just wait. You might want to wait two weeks, um, or, or just until the dog looks like it's settled down a bit more and then keep on dropping the dose. Um, I I'm going to have to rely on you and your community to sort of educate the world on how to, how to do this, do this well, you know, whether it's something that can be done in a couple of months or maybe it takes six months, maybe for most dogs, it's, you know, it's pretty quick, maybe for a select few, it takes longer, but the, the, the golden rule is, is to, if the dog looks very uncomfortable, put, put it back on the last dose where it was comfortable, where it was comfortable. And then the next time drop it by a smaller fraction in humans, we drop the dose every two to two to four weeks. Yeah. Generally no, no, no sooner than every two weeks. It might be different from dogs. We're going to have to, we'll have to comment, have to get people to comment below this video on YouTube or wherever it is to start, to start sharing their experience of, of winning their animals off SSRIs and, and, and how it went. We'll, we'll have to crowdsource this one. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm sure we will get these responses for sure. It's, it's very, uh, every time I have talked about it, it, it brings a lot of interest and, and definitely, you know what else we do, um, especially because they, again, they're typically not as playful, not as excited about anything. So in some tricky way, we kind of force them to get, to start the body, to get active. So we would like maybe do

56:03

a light treadmill or a little bike rides and just start to increase to, to get some conditioning and get some just physical exercises to where the dog starts to like, I find that they, as they're doing, that they start to act a little more normal. And even then as they come out, they're like really going into a rest because they're simply tired, not because they don't care anymore. And, and that seems to be really helping as far as, um, kind of like a kick in the butt to like, Hey, do something like, let's, let's move, let's, let's do something together. There was a, you know, how I came up with this was, uh, because there was some, again, I don't know. It seems like it's becoming really, which I'm very happy, just very, very much the conversation is real and it's out there for humans right now. And, and more and more people are becoming aware that it's, it's not quite as it's presented for so many years. And, but there, there was like a couple of other studies that kind of prompt me into this, how they, they were comparing exercise with SSRI and, and like running an SSRI. And, and it was a very, um, I, I actually, I don't know if I have them here, but it was very, very interesting to see that the results of physical activity really made a very, uh, big improvement on mental health, bigger improvement than the SSRIs. Um, there is one, it's called the Exercises Trans Diagnostic Intervention for Improving Mental Health. And it's another umbrella review of things. And, uh, um, what was the other one? There is like two of them that, that did this with, um, um, but basically, and, and you have to tell me more about this, but I'm, I'm assuming that it's in some way you're forcing yourself to go out and do something for yourself than just sitting and saying how bad you feel or is there something more happening? I think, um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's both things. Um, and so we, so we do know that exercise is a very good antidepressant for, for some, for some people, not everyone. Now, the people that I see it work really well for are the people who are sedentary, you know, they, they don't move. They, they sit behind their computer all the time. They're, they're not active. Um, and human beings, we're designed to move. I mean, we're designed to be out in the sun, you know, with, you know, with the vitamin D effects and the fresh air, we're meant to be moving our bodies. And if you just sit behind your computer all day and drink, you know, three cups of coffee, and you never see the sun, you feel bad. Um, and, and that's why when we do these, these, these clinical trial,

59:20

when we do these studies, we always find that, uh, exercise, um, really makes people feel a lot better. Um, and, and yes, it's a distraction, but I think physiologically being outside in the sun, moving your body, like your biology is designed to is a, is a great way of regulating your mood and getting energy out. And that's the same for dogs. I mean, but before you go and put your dog on an SSRI, I mean, some, there's different dogs out there, but some dogs, oh man, they're, they're, they're bred to move all day. They need to, that's all they need. Yeah. That's, that's where it gets frustrating because, uh, that, that's what, that's the, one of the frustrating things is when it's like, my dog is okay, I'm really kind of really butchering this. It's not quite like that, but it's, it's like my dog is really active. So it's a problem for me and you, you can, it's just wrong to say that and, and label it now as a, some problem that the dog has to, almost like the, with the kids, with the HD and D and things like this, right. It's like, well, it's the kid is active, like sign them up for some martial arts or whatever, let them do something to, you know. Well, I think, I mean, a lot of people that they're not really, you know, they, they, they just get a dog. Um, and I don't know, maybe they have to move for work and they used to have a yard and now they don't have a yard and they're in a, you know, in an apartment and their job is busy, you know, their job is very busy or they have a child and all of a sudden they can't meet the needs of that animal anymore. Um, and, and I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's really sad. And then it's, it's, it's very complicated because, um, what do you do? You know, you have to, I guess you have to find a family for the dog that is better able to meet its needs. Right. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, uh, with the dogs, it's almost, and it may be with some humans, it's the same, but it's like a convenience thing to some great extent just to, yeah, let's just calm things down. Um, they have, um, if the dogs are, uh, not the dogs, if the humans, are they sometimes really on, on their own realizing that the drug, that the drug actually makes them feel better? Like, because in, in the dog, as I was opening the, the podcast, like all the dogs that I have worked with that were on SSRI, they like got way better and some just improved 100% after they were removed. Now, having said that, there is always in the back of my mind, I'm like, but there's gotta be that dog that really needs to be on. And that dog that comes to mind is just a dog that really,

1:02:42

we just need to really keep it in that blunt, flat state of mind because it is the safest for the dog. It is the, even emotionally, it's probably the better option than any other option. But I don't find that like, how, how, how does it really even compare with the human brain and the human emotion? Because dogs emotions are, you know, they're, they're not quite, I mean, they do have similar emotion, but they are not quite, uh, you know, we are humans. We have very different level, like in, in, in dogs, you know, you have affect arousal and, and, you know, it's much more basic. And how do we, like, do you think that there are dogs that have to be on or are they humans that have to be on and why are they have to be on? So, yeah, so let's, I, um, so I have no problems with, with, with people deciding that they want to be on the medications. And so, you know, generally what I like to see is if when, when a person is unhappy, that you really try and find out why, um, and the major buckets are, you know, relationships, purpose, um, and then also, you know, stopping any substances that are making them sick. And then also looking for medical problems or nutritional problems or problems with their food. If, if you have done all of those things and the person is still suffering a lot, I think with a very clean conscience, you can go ahead and, and, and, and say, well, you know, we've tried everything you're exercising, you're eating well, you know, we, we can't really explain where this is coming from and we want you to have a good quality of life. And so we're going to, you know, if, and then we explain the risks to the person, you know, we, you know, this is the evidence base, you know, these are, these are the risks. Do you feel comfortable with them? And if they say yes, then I think that's completely valid. You know, you, you've done a good job. You've tried everything you could, if it's not working with a clean conscious, I think it's fine to use the medications. Um, and I mean, another thing that, that comes to my mind when I think about, uh, dogs is, is the very real possibility that the behavior could lead to the dog being euthanized or to the dog being rehomed or something like that. And, and, and so I actually start thinking about children with autism or, um, parents with dementia because, because, because sometimes that's what we're looking at with families that are caring for these, for these people. Um, and it's the same for them. You, you know, you want to make them as healthy as possible. You want to do everything you can,

1:05:41

but, but sometimes, especially with, um, adults who have dementia, who are just getting worse, the most humane thing you can do might be putting them on an antipsychotic medication or, or some antidepressants because it allows you to control their behavior better. It allows them to stay in the home with you longer. Um, if you, and if that means that your, your grandparent or your parent can stay with you and you can look after them and you don't have to send them to a nursing home, these aren't easy decisions to make. I mean, these are ones that are very complicated and, you know, they're, they're challenging, but there's never a right answer. It's never, you know, it's, it's, it's never right or wrong to use a medication. You look at the individual circumstances for the person, you try everything you can. And if, if that's just the way it needs to be, then, um, then, then that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me this sometimes, not sometimes, very often in, in like the dog shelters, the, where, where, you know, people will just drop off a dog for whatever reason. And it is quite common to put the dogs on any SSRIs and tracodone and gabapentin for that kind of reasons. But the problem with that is that they are, if the dog stays for five months there and it's on the medication and then it comes out and it really didn't have to be on medication. The only main reason that it's on medication is because it's just wants to get out and run, but there is nobody to take him out to run with. And they're just losing their mind and starting to do things. So let's quiet it down. And it's a, it's a difficult situation. I can see how for the moment this is beneficial, but then aren't we creating more problems when that dog is not at the end of its life, but actually now needs to come out and needs to deal with the world and needs to become somebody's pet. Yes. Yeah. You're definitely creating, you're making things easier for the person who runs the kennel, but making things more complicated for the dog and the next owner when they're going to have to deal with a dog that's developed a physical dependency to a medication and has to go through withdrawal. Yeah. And I know sometimes there is just no, it's a, it's very difficult because the, the most of the animal shelters are always packed and, and eventually some dogs are just starting to being from the front row to the back side, to the backside. And eventually nobody ever even knows that they are there and they're on medication. And ultimately if it's a no kill shelter, they, if they can manage it, they, they manage it

1:08:54

somehow or otherwise it's euthanasia. That's an, that's a, an option with dogs that we have the euthanasia, but also very frustrating because that happens sometimes very prematurely. It's not, it's like, like we can say, well, we tried this kind of training. It didn't work. We put it on medication. It didn't work. And, and the medication is the final, it has the final say. It's like, okay, it's been on whatever, sir, this is right. And it doesn't work. So it must be, it's kind of contradicting because it, like, what exactly didn't work. Like the dog just had to come out and, and have somebody that show some interaction, teaches it right from wrong and give some outlets to, to do something with it. But when that's not happening, then they become very difficult to adopt, but they are also very difficult when they come out and well, here is your dog, your new dog, but he comes with a chemical imbalance. Do you still want him? And, and some people will actually take the dog simply because they, they, they will feel bad and they want to save that dog. But most of the people will like, no, I, I, I just want a dog to have fun and play with. I don't want a dog that has chemical imbalance in its brain. Yeah. And I also imagine it could be very, um, it might be very confusing for the person who adopts the dog. Because some people may say, I actually want a very docile dog. I want one that's kind of, you know, doesn't, you know, it is, it is very mellow. And if you go and adopt a dog from a shelter who's on SSRIs and, um, you know, it's, it's very mellow, it's very calm. And you say, oh, this is a good fit for me. And then you bring it home and you take it off the medications and then it's real personality comes out. And all of a sudden, it's like, I want you to interact with me. I want you to take me out. I want to move my body. I mean, that's also, um, I mean, that could also be very confusing for, for an owner. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very much. Um, Hmm. Like we, with humans where like, if things are progressing the way they are in, and the more awareness comes, which, which is really like, I feel like it's in the last few years is really just picked up some really, really crazy, good momentum. But if not SSRI, what, what, uh, what the future looks like for psychiatry? How do you, I mean, cause there are problems. Um, how, how would, how do you see it moving forward? So what I would love to see is, it's not that we get rid of any of the medications is that at least for the humans, the doctors really emphasize getting to the root cause of why people

1:12:32

aren't happy and being honest with them, you know, and, and helping them do that. You know, I would love to see us help people more with their relationships, with their work, with their physical health, and, you know, and, and, and set realistic expectations and say, listen, this could take you a couple of decades to figure out, you know, you have to cultivate these things in your life, you know, good relationships, work that you love, you know, these aren't shortcuts. There is natural pain along the way. And to set those expectations, you know, I'd love to see us get people on, on, on, on, you know, to stop using so much caffeine and nicotine and cannabis to, to clear up their minds. And then also to, to eat good food and to move their body every day. I mean, if we can do that, I think the, the amount of people who need these medications will go down a lot. The, the, the meds aren't really the problem. The problem is, is how we talk to people about them as if, you know, the reason they need them is a brain illness and the drug fixes the brain illness and the drug is safe and effective, even though it's never been studied longer than, you know, longer than a year. And it leads to all of these problems down, down the road. I mean, we're, if, if we could just help people with the things that actually underlie the depression and not lie to them about what the drugs are doing, we'd be in a much better place. And I, and I hope we could do that for the dogs as well. You know, that it will translate that, that level of thinking can translate over into the, the animal world. I think it will because again, I mean, if that's, that's how the SRS came to the dog industry. So I would assume that that's how it's going to go. And then I would say, you know, that's how, what is the whole, like when, when I had the conversation yesterday with, with Dr. Orion, you know, like, is there a way to measure serotonin level in the brain and to say, well, clearly by now we know that low or, or, or higher, like the levels are not really necessarily a factor, but how do we measure serotonin in the brain? So we've, we've been doing this in humans for, for decades. You, you, you stick a needle into the space between the vertebrae, um, in the lower back and you get it into the, um, um, into the, to, to where the spinal cord is. And then you suck up, uh, cerebral spinal fluid. This is the fluid that is kind of going around your brain. It's what the brain kind of floats in and what the spinal cord floats in. You, you suck up that fluid and then you look for, um, serotonin or the metabolites for

1:15:27

serotonin. And, and we've been doing this in humans for a very long time and trying to correlate it with different moods. And, and that's why we know, and that's what Joanna Moncrief, uh, found was that there was no correlation between the neurotransmitters and the people who were depressed compared to the people who were not depressed, who had the levels drawn. It's there, there, there is, it has nothing to do with low or high, uh, neurotransmitters. It's not that simple. How many types of depression? I don't want to get like too crazy on this, but I, as, as you were saying, you get fired from work or you break up with your girlfriend or your football team loses. So sure you can get upset and that upset can lead into more kind of into depression, but, but there is some, can you genetically be really predisposition and just, just come out and, and don't have motivation and just. I think it's, I think that's very unlikely, um, personally, um, in, and almost all of the people that I've, that I've met who have been depressed over the last 10 years and, you know, kind of longer, it's very hard to find someone who, who doesn't have a reason why, why they're unhappy. I think depression and anxiety is, it's mostly, uh, due to life hardship and then medical problems or substance use. Now, there are some people who are just more nervous and that's their temperament. Generally, they tend to have more depression because when bad things happen in their life, because they're more emotional and they feel things stronger, they, they will be more likely to be depressed. This is women as well. Women, women experience depression at a higher rate than men. They, they, they're much more emotionally attuned and emotionally sensitive than men. And so they're more likely to develop depression. And so, I mean, your, your question is, is it still possible that there is someone out there and they come out and, and they, and they're just depressed, you know, and there's nothing, right. There's, there's nothing out there. It's, it's always a possibility, um, because there, you have to be humble and know that there are some things that we may not know about, you know, the human brain and, and, and we're still learning things. And so I think it's a possibility, but I reckon it's, you know, 99% of the people with depression or anxiety, maybe more than 999. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's due to life and, and problems. I think that's the, the, the, the, the extraordinarily rare case that, that it's completely a brain problem.

1:18:18

I, it's a very, very crazy thing that the, the, the worst is that it's very young. Sometimes dogs just don't have any reason to be on the medication or on medication because maybe some behaviors kind of, as we were talking earlier is too, too difficult for the owners to deal with. And, but then there is the, you can have a training or you can give up on the dog or you can put it on medication and everybody can make their own choices, I guess. Um, but hopefully people, when they listen to this, uh, it, it, like one of the main things is to, to bring the awareness that you bring to people, that it's not, it's not just like a vitamin C, it does affect. And, and if you decide to give it to your dogs, ask the questions, talk to the vets, and if the vet cannot explain it to you, then you need to find a vet that can actually tell you how, what can possibly happen, you know, because typically what they will tell you, like, it's very standardized. It's like, okay, well, we're going to put the dog on medication. It may lose its appetite for a week or two. And we're going to see if we need to go a little higher on the dose or lower it or switch the medication. But that's the extent of, of, it's like, when you, as a veterinarian, you're relying on the owner to tell you, well, how are things? How is your dog? How is your dog? And typically when you're, like, I've had, I had clients with dogs that, again, been for quite some time, like, let's say two years on medication. And I remember this one woman, she was like, I know this is not working, but it's kind of, it makes the owner feel good that they're doing something about it. Even though that's something maybe puts the brakes to really make a big change in the dog, but they're going through the right channels to the veterinarian, to the prescription, and every day the dog gets its pill and they feel good about it. So I don't know. And that's one of the dangers of using the medications in humans as well. There's, there's a sense of, well, I'm doing what the experts are telling me, you know, I'm, you know, I'm looking after my mental health where your depression or your anxiety is so much more than, than taking a pill. You know, you, you know, there's so many things, like I mentioned, you know, cultivating relationships and work that you love looking after your health, but it gives people a false sense of security that, yes, they're, they're, they're really handling things when, when they might not be. And, you know, like I had mentioned, I, I take people off meds who have been on them for two decades.

1:21:42

And when they come off, we're rebuilding their lives, you know, and teaching them how to process their emotions. And, and so in some ways it might actually be, um, slowing things down for them, unfortunately. Right. Yeah. That's, that's kind of what I want to, yeah, that is, that's my feeling. Can you tell me one, like, I know you, like I follow you so much then, and I love the, the cases when you have, uh, uh, on, on YouTube, I think it is mostly when you talk to, to, I don't know if all of them are your patients, but are definitely people that have been, or are at the moment on SRIs and how they, you know, their experiences. If you, any of your like top three, very interesting ones that comes to mind to share with us. I think one that's really good for people to listen to is the one it's, it's called psychiatrist hurt by drugs. He prescribed challenges the whole profession. And the thumbnail has a photo of Mark Horowitz. And it says, I got, I got really hurt. Um, and that one, I think is a great story because it talks about a psychiatrist who everyone assumes, you know, is meant to know the risks of these medications, but he, he, he falls for the same narrative. Um, and, and so I think that that's a really interesting one. I mean, some of these, some of these stories are really, um, it can be really quite emotional and sad. I mean, we have, um, you know, if I think about another one, we've got, I feel like there's, uh, an interview I did with a gentleman called Matt Marin, M A R I N. It's called, surviving akathisia and protracted psych med withdrawal. He's just a very likable person. He's young, he's attractive. And he, he kind of talks about how he got lulled into taking these medications and, um, um, and then how it caused him a whole bunch of problems. And let me see if I had one more. He asked for three. Um, this is, this is very sad. Yeah. Yeah. The, the last one would be, um, uh, Benzo's killed my husband interview with Kelsey Krause. Um, this is a story of a woman who loses her husband because he, um, he, he comes off the medications too quickly. And I talk a lot about this on my channel channel. It's a, it's, it's a condition called protracted withdrawal where some people, if they come off their meds too quickly, it's they, they experience a traumatic brain injury. It's almost like they've had a very severe concussion and her, this happens to her husband and she fights to, to keep him alive for years. Um, but eventually fails. Um, and, and that's a very moving, uh, moving interview. So I think, I mean, those would be the ones that I really, uh, think

1:24:46

are quite powerful, but they're, I don't warn people, listen to this. These are sad stories. I mean, these, these, these aren't uplifting stories. They're, they're very raw and, um, um, and they may make some people feel uncomfortable. Very cool. Yeah. We're gonna like, uh, if, if anybody, I know, uh, some of, I mean, I actually know all of the, the places where people can find you, but you can, you can direct them to any specific, if you would like your website or the YouTube channel. Sure. Because I, I know that there will be people that actually, as much as we are talking about dogs, I know that I, I even have friends that are on medication or thing to be on medication and, and the information that you're bringing up. It's, it's so valuable that I know that there will be people that will show a lot of interest to this. So, so, so, um, yeah, best place I'm, I'm on every single social media platform I can think of, like the, the, the main ones. And so the, the biggest channel is the YouTube channel. It's Dr. Yosef. It's, it's spelt in the, with, in, with the German way. So J O S E F. Um, and, um, you can find me on, you know, Instagram, TikTok, uh, X, uh, under either Dr. Yosef or Taper Clinic at Taper Clinic. That's T-A-P-E-R, uh, clinic. Um, that's usually my handle there. Um, and we also have a website, it's TaperClinic.com and, um, and we, we work in 10, 10 of the most populous U S states, uh, doing drug tapering for people. And so, um, you can come to our website if you, or you, maybe you, or someone else that, you know, is interested in potentially doing a drug taper. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. Well, I think this was, I, again, I, I am so happy that I was able to, to get you because I know how busy you are. And, and, and again, it's dogs and, but hopefully that was interesting to you also just to get your mind off people for a moment. Um, and, and hopefully. Very interested in this. I, I mean, I actually think I'm going to do a, a dedicated video on dogs and, um, and Prozac, I think, cause this, this got me really interested. That would be amazing. You will, you will definitely have a, a big, big audience that will want to hear it. And, uh, uh, hopefully for everybody that listened, um, yeah, we're gonna post all the links of course. And, and yeah, I don't know what would be the closing things to tell you, but, you know, just, just don't, don't get too comfortable if you're gonna be using, or you're using SSRIs on your dog. Understand that it's not a necessarily treating directly a problem that the dog has in, in some ways it's more of masking or just, just as we

1:27:58

were talking, um, and they are not benign that they are not safe as an effective depending on, and if it's okay, I'd like to add to that, just that, that the studies looking at these in dogs, they go on for six weeks. Um, and so this is, you know, when, when the vet says, you know, this is effective for the dog, you know, dogs live for 15 years, you know, we, we have no idea really what it's going to do in the long term. Um, and these drugs, like any other drug that acts on your mind and alters your neurochemistry, you know, you, you build tolerance. And so you may end up, it may stop working for the dog, or you may need to go on a higher dose and the dog has side effects. And, you know, when you go to a higher dose, you know, there could, there could be problems. And so it's, um, yeah, you know, I think there's a lot less certainty than, than, than, well, I know that doctors convey, and I imagine maybe the vets could be the same, oh, you know, safe and effective. We do it all the time, you know, and then people don't hear, yeah, for the six weeks, you know, the study went for. Well, super. I am very, very grateful. And, uh, if you, if you really, if that was, uh, uh, if you're gonna end up doing something on those, that will be absolutely amazing. And, um, yeah, thank you so much for, for the conversation. Very, very insightful. And, and I know people will be very happy because this, this conversation was really missing in, in the dog training community. Uh, we, we're always here. Well, it was a pleasure. It was really nice talking to you, Ivan. I'm, I'm so happy you're interested in this topic and you're trying to, to spread awareness amongst your community and dog owners out there. Thank you. Thank you so much.