NePoPoNePoPo® (Bart & Michael Bellon) · 글
IPO(현재 IGP로 명칭 변경) 사례: 많은 훈련사가 'stand in motion'(움직이는 중 서기)을 훈련할 때, 1단계나 2단계가 완벽해질 때까지 3단계를 가르치지 않으려는 경향이 있음 [03:45]Bart Bellon의 구사 가능 언어: (영국식), (프랑스어), (독일어), (네덜란드어), (스와힐리어) [01:22]EnglishFrenchGermanNetherlandsSwahiliNePoPo® 훈련은 두 가지를 배우는 것보다 세 가지를 배우게 하므로 겉보기에는 더 어려워 보이지만, 실제로는 훨씬 더 쉬움 [04:38]clicker나 whistle을 사용함 [05:08]clicker 사용이 허용되지 않지만, whistle은 사용이 가능하기 때문에 whistle을 훈련에 적극 활용함 [05:08]whistle을 clicker 대용으로 사용하는 것을 낯설어하지만, 실전성 때문에 whistle을 사용하는 것이 합리적임 [05:37]Mercedes Sprinter 차량과 DC Metro canine이라는 광고 문구를 보고 관심을 갖게 됨 [09:08]German Shepherd를 리드줄로 끌고 오는 한 여성을 만났고, 대화를 통해 세미나 참석 여부를 확인하게 됨 [09:42]bitework에서 리드줄 당기기에 대한 철학pool collar(목줄)를 당기게 하는 훈련의 일환임 [10:12]bitework(물기 훈련)에서는 개가 large collar를 착용하고 당기는 것이 허용될 뿐만 아니라, 나중에는 타겟(목표물) 방향으로 당기는 것이 필수가 됨 [10:12]bitework에서 개가 공기 흐름에 약간의 어려움(struggle)을 겪게 하는 이유는, 전통적인 훈련 방식에서 호흡이 조금 제한될 때 개가 더 진지하고 건조하게(drier) 물기 때문임 [10:38]choke collar(초크 칼라)를 사용하는 이유:choke collar의 마법NVBK(벨기에 셰퍼드 독 클럽) 클럽에서 "악어처럼 무는 개들"이 있다는 소문을 듣고 직접 자전거(혹은 소형 모페드)를 타고 찾아감 [11:41]helper(도우미)는 거의 움직이지 않았음 [12:10]helper가 개를 질식(choke)시키려 해도 전혀 떨어지지(out) 않았음 [12:10]helper가 의자에 앉아 있었고, 개들은 여전히 강하게 물고 있었음 [12:41]out이 되지 않았음 [12:41]Art Villain 전기(biography) 웹사이트에 게시되어 있음 [15:07]tricks(트릭)은 숙련도가 조금 부족해도 아무도 문제 삼지 않음 [17:32]exercises(운동/훈련)들은 훈련 기술은 옳을지 몰라도, 이를 가르치는 training strategy(훈련 전략)가 잘못된 것임을 깨달음 [17:32]Michael과 함께 고안한 해결책: 모든 exercise를 trick처럼 가르친 뒤, 만족스러운 상태가 되었을 때 천천히 명칭을 붙임 [18:00]on cue(큐에 맞춰) 동작을 수행할 때도 여전히 flashy(화려하고 활기찬)한 상태를 유지하게 되며, 이것이 바로 NePoPo®의 핵심 [18:00]expert(전문가)가 되게끔 내버려 두는 것이 중요함 [18:33]intrinsic drive(내적 동기)에 귀를 기울여야 함 [18:33]Michael은 대학에서 psychology(심리학) 학위를 취득했으며, 그곳에서 배운 내용이 NePoPo®의 criteria(기준)를 개발하는 데 큰 역할을 함 [18:33]Bart와 Michael)이 만나 각자의 고집스러운 아이디어를 결합하여 NePoPo®라는 체계를 완성함 [19:40]monkey see monkey do(남들이 하는 것을 무작정 따라 하는 것) 현상이 만연함 [20:12]bitework(비트워크) 훈련 시 흔히 보이는 defense(방어) 요소에 대한 비판: 99%의 경우 올바르게 수행되지 않으므로, defense를 이해하지 못한다면 시도하지 말아야 함 [20:12]defense가 아닌 prey(프레이) 드라이브 상태인 경우가 많음 [20:12]Bart와 Michael은 훈련의 모든 단계에서 '왜(Why)'를 끊임없이 토론함 [20:42]Bart의 훈련 철칙: "do nothing unless there's a reason to do something do something only for as a reaction to the..." — (어떠한 행동을 할 이유가 생기기 전까지는 아무것도 하지 마라. 오직 반응으로서만 행동하라) [21:08]toy(장난감)를 겨드랑이 밑에 끼고 healing target(보상 타겟)으로 삼는 모습을 흔히 목격함 [21:35]toy(장난감)를 보지 않고 핸들러의 눈을 응시하고 있음 [21:35]direct reward(직접 보상) 상태라서 장난감을 보고 있어요"라고 답하지만, 사실 개는 장난감이 아니라 핸들러의 눈을 보고 있는 것임 [22:01]ball(공)을 던져버리는 것이 나음. 핸들러의 눈을 보게 하는 도구로서의 공은 필요 없음 [22:01]relationship(관계)이 형성됨 [22:27]behavior(행동)에 부정적인 영향을 미칠 수 있음 [22:54]Larry Crone의 시청 인사를 확인 [22:54]John Sparks가 언급한 "같은 collar pressure(칼라 압박)가 많은 pet dogs(반려견)로 하여금 의도치 않게 다른 개에게 달려들거나 물게 만든다"는 지적에 동의함 [23:23]collar pressure(칼라 압박)는 개를 공격적으로 만들 수 있음 [23:23]vicious(사납게)하게 만듦 [23:23]positive clicker trainers(긍정 강화 클릭커 훈련사)들의 훈련을 봐도 배울 점(pearl)이 있음. 비록 그 내용 중 많은 부분이 hogwash(허튼소리)라 할지라도, 배울 수 있는 무언가가 반드시 존재함 [24:23]dog training(개 훈련)에서는 eclectic knowledge base(절충적인 지식 기반)를 갖추는 것이 중요함 [24:23]individual(개체)이며, 훈련 프로그램에 예기치 못한 gremlins(골칫거리/방해 요소)가 발생할 수 있기 때문에 다양한 지식이 필요함 [24:23]drive(드라이브)를 쌓아야 한다'고 생각하지만, 모든 개에게 드라이브를 높일 필요는 없으며 오히려 차분하게 가라앉혀야 하는 개도 있음 [24:51]bike sports(바이크 스포츠)에서는 개가 핸들러(handler)를 쳐다보게 만드는 것이 거의 불가능했음 — [25:54]RPO(루틴 오비디언스)의 백 트랜스포트(back transport) 상황에서 개가 핸들러만 보고 헬퍼를 보지 않는 현상이 발생 — [26:28]NePoPo®에서 헬퍼란 공(ball), 축구공(football), 사람 등 무엇이든 될 수 있음 — [27:27]Michael이 훈련했던 개 Andfor의 사례나 최근의 개들처럼, 훈련 초기부터 'Hold, out, hold, give(물고 있기, 놓기, 물고 있기, 건네주기)'를 반복 학습함 — [28:31]bike sports의 오비디언스(obedience) 종목에는 물건을 가져와 건네주는(fetch and give) 과제가 2개 포함되어 있으며, 이는 총 120점 중 20점을 차지함 — [28:31]bite work(물기 훈련) 중에 휘슬(whistle)을 불거나 구두 명령을 내릴 때 훨씬 수월함 — [29:00]Michael은 강아지 때부터 놀이를 통해 휘슬을 활용하여 놓기 훈련을 함 — [29:00]Ring sports와 같은 상위 스포츠 경기에서도 휘슬이나 훈련 도구(training tool)를 사용하는 것이 가능함 — [29:27]Ring sports에서는 280점의 큰 비중이 물기와 놓기에 할당되어 있음 — [29:27]Outing(입에서 놓기)과 Bite work(물기 훈련)의 관계 및 오해Outing(입에서 놓기)에서 Zero points(0점)를 받는다는 것은 Outing과 Biting(물기)의 가치가 동등하다는 것을 의미함 [29:55]Dog(개)이 Outing을 잘한다고 해서 Bite(물기)를 좋아하지 않는 것은 아님 [29:55]Outing을 가르칠 수 있다고 생각함) [29:55]Obsessive(강박적)인 생각이며, 실제 NePoPo® 훈련은 그렇지 않음 [29:55]Awareness(인식)를 가르치는 것임 [29:55]Dog(개)이 현재 환경에서 일어나는 모든 일을 스스로 인지하게 만드는 것이 목표임 [29:55]Communication(소통)의 기초Chaos)이 일어날 수 있는 세계에 살고 있음 [30:25]Dog(개)을 인간의 세계로 데려온 이상, 이 세상에 어떻게 존재해야 하는지 가르치는 것은 인간의 Moral obligation(도덕적 의무)임 [30:25]Right answer(올바른 정답)를 알려주고, Contrast(대조)를 보여주는 과정이 필요함 [30:25]Communication(소통)의 통로를 단순하게 열어주며, Dog(개)이 무엇이 Right answer(정답)인지 알게 함 [30:55]Dog(개)에게 Right answer(정답)를 보여주며 Shaping(형성)해 나가는 것이 핵심임 [30:55]Separation anxiety(분리 불안) 예방Come to me(나에게 오기)와 Go there(저기로 가기) 훈련은 동일한 맥락임 [31:23]Go there(저기로 가기)를 가르치기 위해 Come to me(나에게 오기)가 '번개처럼 빨라야(lightning fast)' 할 필요는 없음 [31:23]Dog(개)이 주인에게 오는 것만 배운다면 Separation anxiety(분리 불안)가 생길 수 있음 [31:23]Neural neurons(신경세포)들이 발화하기 시작하면서 Doubts(의심), Fears(두려움), Anxieties(불안)가 몸을 덮치게 되는데, 이는 동물에게 공정한 처사가 아님 [31:50]Contrast(대조)되는 반대편의 상황을 보여주어야 함 [31:50]Dog world(개 훈련 세계)의 화합Ragnar(개 이름)와의 Bite release(물기 놓기) 영상이 도움이 되었다는 피드백 [31:50]Valerie(시청자)의 사례: Task training(과제 훈련), Retrieve exercises(회수 훈련), Pet dog(반려견), Service dog(서비스견) 훈련에 이 스타일이 효과적임 [32:18]Take-Give combo(물고 놓는 콤보)는 단순히 Sport bite work(스포츠 물기 훈련)에만 국한되지 않음 [32:18]Dog world(개 훈련 세계) 내의 큰 Division(분열)은 불필요함 [32:18]Pearls of wisdom(진주 같은 지혜)들은 Pet dog, Service dog는 물론 반려 동물과의 관계를 최대한으로 끌어올리는 데 적용 가능함 [32:51]Dog sport(개 스포츠)로 유명한 나라들을 다녀보면 50년 전의 Old-fashioned training(구식 훈련)을 여전히 고수하는 곳이 많음 [33:18]Internet(인터넷), Seminars(세미나) 등을 통해 배울 수 있는 수많은 기회가 있는 시대에 50년 전 방식에 머물러 있는 것은 이해하기 어려움 [33:18]Martin System®이 생산하는 장비는 세계 최고 수준이다. [33:46]Flip과의 일화 및 e-collar(전기 칼라) 사용 계기Flip은 저자가 성공적으로 훈련한 첫 번째 개이며, 7번의 벨기에 챔피언 출신에게서 구매했다. [34:12]Jeff News는 개를 제어하지 못해 곤란을 겪고 있었다. [34:12]Flip의 구매가는 8만 벨기에 프랑(Belgian Franc)이었으며, 판매자에게 10번의 종부료(stud fees)를 지불해야 하는 조건이 있었다. [34:46]e-collar를 강력히 반대하는 입장이었다. [35:21]e-collar는 버튼을 누르면 무조건 최고 단계(maximum level)의 자극만 나갔기 때문이다. [35:21]CBs(시민 대역 무선기) 신호에 반응해 개가 원치 않는 전기 자극(zapped)을 받는 등 나쁜 경험이 많았다. [35:21]Flip이 '아웃(out, 명령에 따라 물던 것을 놓는 것)'을 하지 않아 e-collar를 도입하게 되었다. [35:48]Flip은 어린 시절 물지 않다가 나중에야 물기 시작했는데, 이전 소유자가 물고 놓지 않는 행위를 허용하여 '아웃'이 되지 않는 문제가 있었다. [35:48]choker)으로 해결하려 할수록 개는 점점 더 사나워졌다. [35:48]e-collar의 효용성 발견 및 장비 개발Lose Zemi가 사용하던 초기 DT Systems 장비를 빌려 테스트했다. [36:45]e-collar가 훨씬 낫고 개를 더 강하게 만든다는 확신을 가지며 e-collar 지지자가 되었다. [37:15]Checker 제품은 두 번의 긴 태클(tackle) 만에 고장이 났다. [37:43]Tri-Tronics 제품은 안테나가 매우 길었지만 꽤 작동했다. [37:43]Innotek이라는 브랜드가 시장에 등장함 [39:05]Innotek 제품은 20,000 벨기에 프랑(약 300 유로 이상의 가치) 정도였으며, 매우 작고 부스터(booster) 기능이 있는 트랜스미터 형태였음 [39:05]Innotek의 주요 인물들인 Greg, Frank Hughlin, Steve Gill과 인연을 맺게 되었으며, 지금까지도 좋은 친구이자 서로 존중하는 사이로 지내고 있음 [39:33]Innotek이 Radio Systems에 인수되었고, 해당 기업의 컨설턴트로 근무하게 됨 [40:01]Radio Systems 컨설턴트 시절, 주요 업무 중 하나는 경쟁사 제품들을 구매하여 분석하는 것이었음 [40:01]Martin System®의 발견: 분석 결과, 벨기에의 작은 브랜드인 Martin System®이 단연 1위라는 결론을 내림 [40:01]Radio Systems 경영진에게 전달했으나, 그들은 이 아이디어를 수용하지 않았고 결국 퇴사하게 됨 [40:28]Martin System® 합류: 이후 Martin System®의 컨설턴트로 이직하며 Charles Martin과 개인적인 친분을 쌓게 됨 [40:28]Martin System®은 뛰어난 전문성을 가지고 있었음에도 불구하고, 니치 마켓(niche, 틈새시장)을 넘어 세계적으로 영향력을 확산하는 데는 어려움이 있었음 [41:02]Martin System® 행사에서 Michael과 Darwin이 시연을 진행함 [41:31]Michael과 Bart에게 회사 인수를 제안함 [41:31]Mr. Martin이 알츠하이머(alzheimer) 진단을 받았음을 알게 됨 (이전부터 건강 이상을 감지했으나 구체적인 병명은 몰랐던 상태였음) [41:58]Michael과 의논 끝에 인수 의사를 밝힘 [41:58]Alliance 사의 도움을 크게 받았음 [41:58]Martin System® 사업을 그만두게 된다면, 이 경험을 바탕으로 베스트셀러 책을 쓸 수 있을 만큼 힘들고 스트레스가 많은 과정이었음 [42:29]e-collar(전자 훈련기) 회사의 CEO를 맡고 있는 도그 트레이너임 [43:02]e-collar에 대한 부정적 여론과 그 이유e-collar를 금지하는 국가가 매년 늘어나는 등 논란이 거셈 [43:33]e-collar가 나쁜 평판을 얻게 된 데에는 두 가지 주요 원인이 있음 [43:33]Martin System®의 기술적 차별점Martin System®은 SSC(Stimulation Stimulation Consistency) 특허를 보유함 [44:35]SSC 특허의 핵심은 송신기(transmitter)와 수신기(receiver)가 1초에 약 20번씩 서로 통신하는 기술임 [44:35]e-collar가 겪는 두 번째 주요 문제는 트레이너들에 대한 교육의 부재임 [45:03]e-collar 제품 하나를 사려고만 할 뿐, 자신이 무엇을 구매해야 하는지 충분한 지식이 없음 [45:03]e-collar 역시 사람들은 자신이 무엇을 쇼핑하는지 제대로 알지 못한 채 가격과 외형만 보고 구매함 [45:36]e-collar 산업의 비즈니스 구조와 혁신Martin System® 제품이 왜 그렇게 비싼지에 대해 분노 섞인 이메일을 받은 적이 있으나, 그 가격에는 특허 등 합당한 이유가 있음 [46:05]e-collar 회사들이 새로운 혁신(novelties)을 내놓지 않는지 이해하게 됨 [46:37]iPhone 세계와 비교하면 혁신 속도가 훨씬 느림 [46:37]e-collar(전자 훈련기)의 위상e-collar 역시 기술의 영역으로 간주해야 함. [47:03]electric collar를 검색해보면 베스트셀러 제품이 39.99달러(약 40달러)에 판매되고 있음. [47:03]e-collar인 mini educator는 200달러 정도임. [47:34]anti bark(짖음 방지기)의 기술적 난이도와 위험성anti bark 제품들이 저렴한 가격에 판매되는 것에 놀라움을 금치 못함. [47:34]anti bark는 가장 만들기 복잡하고 안전을 보장하기 어려운 도구임. [48:01]anti bark라면 개가 짖는 '행동 도중'에만 stim(자극)이 전달되어야 함. [48:01]anti bark 제품은 개가 짖고 난 '후'에 반응하며, 바로 이 때문에 많은 강한 기질의 개들이 오히려 더 짖게 됨. [48:01]stim이 correction(교정)으로 작용하는가, 아니면 aversive stem(혐오 자극)으로 작용하는가에 달려 있음. [48:01]aversive stem은 원치 않는 행동과 동시에 전달되어야 하며, correction은 개가 불복종한 사실이 발생한 '후'에 전달됨. [48:31]correction만이 효과가 있음. 필자들은 anti bark가 가장 어려운 collar라고 강조함. [48:31]NePoPo® 훈련 시스템의 정의와 배경e-collar가 공격받는 두 번째 이유는 훈련 문화 때문임. [48:31]NePoPo®는 negative-positive-positive 시스템을 의미함. [49:04]NePoPo® 훈련 방식 예시:negative라면, 개가 보호자 방향으로 움직이기 시작할 때 리드줄 당기는 것을 멈춤. [49:04]pressure를 멈추는 것 자체가 positive한 경험이 됨. [49:32]e-collar 회사로 보내는 이메일의 전형적인 내용: "my dog is misbehaving" — (개가 잘못된 행동을 하고 있어서 e-collar를 구매해야겠다는 식의 접근이 구식 훈련 시스템의 특징임) [49:32]prey drive(사냥 본능)를 다루는 기초 과정을 우선함) [53:03]biting) 자체가 아니라 harmony(조화)임 [53:03]basics)보다는 cheeky cheeky taca training에만 관심을 가짐 — (cheeky cheeky taca training은 헬퍼가 소란스럽게 움직이며 개를 흥분시키는 자극적인 훈련 방식을 비꼬는 표현) [53:03]harmony(조화)가 중요함 [53:03]out 명령을 내리면 개가 즉시 물기를 멈추고 돌아와야 한다는 복종의 핵심) [53:31]hold(물고 버티기)와 give(놓기/뱉기)를 모두 가르쳐야 하며, 훈련의 양면을 모두 가르치지 않으면 개는 동전의 한쪽 면만 보고 다른 상황을 마주했을 때 혼란을 겪음 [53:31]minimize the fighting)하는 것임 [53:31]Amazon)이나 펫 박스 스토어에서 파는 저품질 e-collar(전기 칼라)는 동물 복지 활동가들을 자극하며, 이는 사실일 가능성이 높음 [53:58]NePoPo® training school은 Martin System®을 소유하기 전부터 존재했음 [54:26]Martin System®은 매우 강력한 도구이며, e-collar는 복음(the bible)과 같은 역할을 함 [54:26]Martin System®)를 반드시 사용하라고 강요하지 않음 [54:52]finger kick(손가락으로 조작하는 방식)과 sensor(센서)는 game changer(판도를 바꾸는 기술)임 [55:20]contact measurements(접촉 측정) 기술은 훈련을 시작하기 전에 실제 기기가 개에게 접촉되었는지 확인해주며, 이것이 가장 중요한 혁신임 [55:20]distrust)을 심어주게 됨 [55:48]rapport(라포/신뢰 관계)를 쌓고 파워를 구축하려 하지만, 확인되지 않은 자극 전달은 쌓아온 관계를 모두 무너뜨림(wiped all that stuff clean) [55:48]sensor 기술은 접촉이 확실히 이루어졌다는 추가적인 보험(extra insurance)을 제공해주기 때문에 매우 필수적인 도구임 [55:48]Chameleon®의 탄생 배경과 혁신성Chameleon®은 매우 신중하고 눈에 띄지 않는(discreet) 디자인을 가진 e-collar(전자 훈련기)임 [56:17]stimulation(전기 자극) 기능을 즉시 제거할 수 있음 [56:17]e-collar 사용이 금지된 독일 등지에서 훈련을 진행할 때 유용하게 사용됨 [56:51]e-collar를 사용하는 현대적인 훈련 방식을 고수했음에도, 'delete kick' 기능을 활용하여 'smoking gun'(증거물)을 남기지 않음으로써 단 한 번도 법적/윤리적 문제에 휘말린 적이 없음 [56:51]Chameleon®의 기계적 특허와 구조적 장점Chameleon®은 단순한 전자기기 그 이상의 기계적 특허 기술이 적용된 제품임 [57:23]e-collar의 문제점:box(본체)가 달려 있어 그 부분이 가장 무거움 [57:51]necrosis(괴사) 문제가 발생함 [58:16]box가 항상 같은 위치로 떨어지기 때문에 훈련사가 위치를 옮겨줘도 30분 뒤면 다시 원래 위치로 돌아옴 [58:16]Chameleon®의 구조적 이점:box가 없음 [58:42]contact point를 원하는 위치로 자유롭게 이동시킬 수 있음 [59:08]feather contacts(깃털형 접점)를 사용할 수 있음 [59:08]contact measurement feature(접촉 측정 기능)가 탑재되어 있음 [59:08]necrosis가 발생할 경우 접점 위치를 즉시 옮길 수 있어 괴사를 과거의 일로 만들 수 있음 [59:08]Feather contacts 및 시스템 기능Feather contacts는 미관상 아름다울 뿐만 아니라 기능적으로도 매우 뛰어남 [59:08]feather point들은 강아지의 피부와 완벽한 접촉을 유지함 [59:35]stimulus(자극)가 가해지거나 contact(접촉)가 이루어질 때 불이 들어오는 표시등이 있어 상태를 즉시 확인할 수 있음 [59:35]Chameleon®의 접촉 확인 시스템 및 기술적 특징Chameleon®은 인디케이터 라이트 사이클이 있어 현재 상태를 육안으로 확인할 수 있음 [60:05]"I raise his head and i just look okay we have to contact if we don't i know i must brush him i must move it i i'm i know for sure i've contact" — (강아지의 머리를 들어 올려 접촉 여부를 확인하고, 접촉이 안 되면 털을 빗거나 위치를 조정하여 확실한 접촉을 보장함) [60:37]Chameleon®의 탄생 배경과 Martin System®과의 협업Michael Bellon과 Bart Bellon이 e-collar의 발전을 위한 비전을 가지고 Chameleon®을 개발함 [61:10]Chameleon®이라는 명칭은 상표권으로 보호받고 있으며, 다수의 특허를 보유함 [61:10]e-collar 브랜드 중 Martin System®을 선택하여 몰딩된 플라스틱 내부에 전자 기기를 삽입함 [61:10]Martin System®과 라이선스 계약을 체결하고 비용을 지불하여 BCBB(Bart & Michael Bellon) store에서 Chameleon®을 판매함 [61:35]Extender(익스텐더)는 다른 브랜드의 brickstone(기기 본체)을 부착할 수 있게 해주는 장치임 [62:05]Chameleon®과 유사해 보이지만, contact measurement(접촉 측정) 기능이 없으므로 진정한 Chameleon®은 아님 [62:05]Chameleon® 내부 프레임에 넣을 수 있도록 기술을 개방할 준비가 되어 있음 [62:36]"we're apple we're on our next phone" — (애플이 아이폰의 다음 모델을 준비하듯, 우리도 다음 단계의 기술 발전을 준비 중이라는 비유) [62:36]Finger clicker 개발 및 생산 비용의 이해Chameleon® 프로젝트의 완성으로 Finger clicker(손가락 클리커)를 곧 출시할 예정임 [63:02]clicker(클리커)이며, 링 훈련 등에 사용 시 인증받은 도구로 보일 수 있음 [63:02]"it will be a regular clicker that the picture of your ring is not approved that you did use whatever it's just a clicker" — (특정한 훈련 방식이나 인증 여부와 관계없이 순수하게 클릭 소리를 내는 도구임) [63:28]R&D(연구 개발) 비용이 포함된 결과이며, 거대 기업인 Radio Systems와 같은 자본 없이 소규모 인원이 직접 운영하기 때문에 발생하는 구조임 [63:57]Martin System® 본사를 방문하는 등 모든 과정을 직접 관리함 [63:57]CTT(Chameleon Trainer Tool)와 모든 Chameleon® 제품, 그리고 목에 거는 pester까지 직접 테스트함 — (모든 장비를 본인이 먼저 직접 검증한다는 원칙) [64:22]bark collar(짖음 방지기)를 테스트할 때 직접 짖으며 성능을 확인하자, 주변 사람들이 그 성능에 놀라며 훌륭하다고 평가함 [64:22]e-collar를 종일 사용하는데, 매우 훌륭하다는 후기) [64:52]Martin System®의 기술적 진보를 강조하며, 관심 있는 사람들은 martinsystemshop.com을 방문하여 제품을 확인하고 문의할 것을 권장 [64:52]e-collar.com(Greg의 Educator 등) 제품도 자주 사용하지만, Chameleon®은 발표자가 꿈꿔왔던 제품이자 자신의 반려견을 위해 선택한 제품임 [65:22]nano나 다른 e-collar들은 너무 크고 무거워 마치 "big old brick"(커다란 벽돌)처럼 느껴짐 [65:53]Chameleon®은 최첨단 기술을 집약한 제품이며, 특히 induction(유도 방식)을 통한 배터리 충전 기술은 매우 혁신적임 [65:53]induction 충전 방식은 기존의 USB port 충전 방식에 익숙한 사람들에게는 다소 생소하고 어렵게 느껴질 수 있음 [66:24]extender를 발명하여 소형견(예: Chihuahua)에게도 맞출 수 있게 개선함 [66:24]Chameleon III(3) small, medium, large 사이즈 출시 [66:52]Chameleon IV(4) 출시 [66:52]Bart와 Michael을 Steve Jobs와 Apple에 비유하며, 그들이 탁월한 혁신가임을 강조 [67:23]esoteric knowledge)이 부족함 [67:49]go-to)이 될 것임 [67:49]e-collar(전자 훈련기)는 소형견에게 너무 부피가 크고 무겁다는 문제점이 있음 [68:18]Feathers(깃털 형태의 유연한 접촉 단자) 시연: 스테인리스 스틸 재질로 제작 [69:39]Feathers의 기능적 요구사항: 반드시 구부러져야 하고, 다시 원상태로 돌아오는 복원력을 가져야 함 [69:39]NePoPo® 관점에서 지나치게 강해서 부러지지 않게만 만들면 유연성이 떨어지고, 이는 necrosis(피부 괴사)를 유발할 수 있음 [69:39]leash(리드줄)를 해당 부위에 직접 연결하는 경우 [70:07]e-collar의 구조: 양쪽에 작은 receiver(수신기)를 배치하고 그 사이에 밴드가 위치하는 방식 [70:33]NePoPo®의 대표로서 회사를 운영하며 동료들의 급여, 공급업체 비용 등을 책임져야 하는 현실적인 무게를 인지함 [71:05]Inno Tech 시절에는 매년 매출이 2배, 3배씩 성장했음을 언급함 [72:00]Inno Tech 콜라(collars)들을 박물관에 전시할 정도로 보관하고 있음 [72:00]E-Collar Technologies가 시장에 진입했을 당시, 사람들은 시장이 이미 포화 상태라고 했으나 결과는 정반대였음 [72:30]E-Collar Technologies는 지난 10년간 매년 성장을 거듭하며 놀라운 성과를 보여줌 [72:30]Martin System®만큼 방대한 제품군을 보유하고 혁신을 이루지 못했음을 강조함 [72:30]pigeon launches (비둘기 런처) [72:57]fuzzand launches (퓨잔 런처) [72:57]beepers (비퍼) [72:57]falcon mps gps (팔콘 MPS GPS) [72:57]dock gps (독 GPS) [72:57]anti-bark (짖음 방지기) [72:57]invisible fence (보이지 않는 울타리) [72:57]lala (랄라) 제품 [72:57]chameleon (카멜레온) 제품 라인 [72:57]Martin System®은 단순 제조사를 넘어 R&D(연구개발) 기업임을 강조함 [72:57]chameleon은 독립형 리모트나 콜라가 아니며, 반드시 페어링할 수 있는 Martin System® 송신기(transmitter)가 필요함 [74:29]chameleon은 타사 브랜드 콜라와는 작동하지 않으며, 오직 Martin System® 송신기와만 호환됨 [74:57]extender (익스텐더)는 chameleon 브랜드 제품임 [74:57]extender는 Dogtra, E-Collar Technologies, Garmin 등 타사 브랜드 제품과도 함께 사용할 수 있음 [75:24]chameleon처럼 전자 장치가 내장된 제품은 반드시 호환되는 전용 송신기가 있어야 함 [75:24]Dogtra 수신기를 Martin System® 송신기에 페어링할 수는 없으며, 이는 작동하지 않음 [75:24]Martin System®과 Chameleon® 제품의 장점은 구성 요소들을 자유롭게 결합(pair)하고 분리할 수 있다는 점임. [75:56]transmitter(송신기)와 페어링할 수 있으며, 기존 장비를 유지하거나 판매하고 새로운 장비를 추가하는 등의 관리가 용이함. [75:56]Micro 수신기나 Chameleon® 수신기를 하나의 transmitter에 동시에 페어링하여 사용할 수 있음. [75:56]Finger kick은 손가락에 끼워 사용하는 장치로, 이를 처음 접했을 때 매우 인상적이었음. [76:22]collar wise(칼라의 존재를 눈치챔)가 되거나, 핸들러가 조끼 등에 착용한 remote(리모컨)를 꺼내는 동작을 보고 즉시 태도가 바뀌는 경우가 있음. [76:22]Tri-Tronics 같은 거대한 튜브형 e-collar를 사용할 당시, 개가 그 자세에서 전기 자극을 받았기 때문에 엎드려 있어야만 했던 경험에서 비롯됨. 사람들은 이것을 '엎드려'라는 명령으로 오해하고 따라 하지만, 실제로는 개가 상황을 학습한 것임) [76:56]Tri-Tronics 제품으로 훈련할 때는 먼저 vibration(진동) 신호를 주고 바로 전기 자극을 가하는 방식을 사용했음. [77:25]Martin System® 제품은 injected molding(사출 성형) 방식을 사용함. [77:54]G-Shock 시계 브랜드처럼 배터리 소모가 사용 방식에 따라 다르기 때문에, 보통 배터리는 보증에서 제외되는 경우가 많음. [78:22]Martin System®은 유럽뿐만 아니라 전 세계적으로 동일한 2년 보증을 제공함. [78:47]Finger kick을 사용하여 Chameleon®을 운영해왔으며, 이는 최고의 의사소통 도구임. [78:47]Bluetooth 장치가 제대로 작동하는지 확인하는 방법: transmitter를 등 뒤에 숨긴 채로 작동시켜 신호가 전달되는지 테스트함. [79:14]Bluetooth 신호를 차단하는 성질이 있음. [79:14]Martin System®은 이러한 신호 간섭 문제를 해결하기 위해 세심한 기술적 노력을 기울였음. [79:14]Martin System® 리모컨(Transmitter)의 테스트 및 활용bluetooth(블루투스) 기능이 탑재된 리모컨을 사용할 때, 내 앞쪽에서 버튼을 누르는 테스트를 수행하십시오. [79:46]helper(헬퍼/보조자)로 활동할 때 이와 같은 등 뒤 조작 방식이 본인이 선호하는 구성입니다. [79:46]CTT(Martin System® 리모컨 도구)를 팔에 착용하는 방식도 가능합니다. [80:15]CTT를 허리에 두르는 방식으로 운용할 수 있습니다. [80:15]police(경찰) 및 army(군대)와 같은 tactical people(전술 전문가)을 위해 제작된 tactical stuff(전술 장비)입니다. [80:15]joe bob(일반 사용자들)이 가장 많이 구매하고 있습니다. [80:42]GPS 추적 기술 및 시장의 가치 판단GPS locator(GPS 위치 추적기)를 보유하고 있습니다. [81:15]emerging market(신흥 시장) 단계라 인식이 부족합니다. [82:14]e-collar(전자 훈련기)의 기능과 관점e-collar는 거의 항상 dual tool(이중 도구)로 사용됩니다. [82:41]competition(대회) 영역에서는 개가 최종적으로 어깨를 톡톡 두드리는 신호(tap on the shoulder)조차 피하도록(회피하도록) 가르쳐야 하지만, pet people(일반 보호자)에게는 신호를 평생 사용해도 아무런 문제가 없습니다. [82:41]IACP(International Association of Canine Professionals) 행사에서 사람들에게 e-collar를 착용하게 한 뒤, 100달러 지폐를 가져가도록 시연함 — (참가자가 e-collar 자극을 견디며 돈을 쟁취하도록 e-collar를 조종함) [83:39]working dog(작업견)을 위한 좋은 e-collar에는 돈을 아끼는 경향이 있음 [84:05]Fred Hassen과 Sit Means Sit의 훈련 영상을 보고 "how the heck are these dogs doing this" (도대체 이 개들이 어떻게 이런 걸 하는 거지?)라고 생각하며 마법 같다고 느낌 [84:32]Fred Hassen은 절대 e-collar 사용을 부정하거나 숨기지 않고 항상 솔직했음 [85:01]e-collar에 대해 혼란스러워함 [85:01]e-collar를 쓰지 않는다고 거짓말을 하는 것은 기만임 [85:32]enforcer(강제 도구)를 세상에 전부 공개한다면, 많은 positive professional(긍정 강화 전문가)들이 체면을 잃게 될 것임 [85:32]e-collar 사용은 Harmony(조화)의 일부이며, 이를 솔직하게 밝히지 않는 것은 비밀처럼 유지되고 있음 [85:32]e-collar seminar(전자식 목줄 세미나)를 요청하지만, Bart는 이를 거절함 [86:01]e-collar는 그저 시스템 안의 하나의 도구일 뿐임 [86:01]Jeff Size라는 노인이 있었음 [86:28]Jeff Size는 매우 똑똑하고 성공적인 훈련사였으며, 승마(horse world) 분야에서 훈련을 시작한 인물임 [86:28]Jeff Size는 Bart에게 'Manneken'이라고 불렀는데, 이는 Bart의 언어로 "little guy" (꼬마)라는 뜻임 [87:00]bamboo stick(대나무 막대기)을 사용하여 개를 훈련했음 [87:00]Jeff Size가 가르친 bamboo 사용법:bamboo로 명령을 강화(Reinforce)하고 속도를 높일 것 [87:00]e-collar(전자 훈련기)도 이와 같은 원리이며, 이를 통해 많은 의사소통이 가능함. [88:00]Martin System®과 Dogtra, e-collar technologies, Garmin 등 일반적인 e-collar의 자극(stem) 느낌 차이에 대한 질문. [88:58]Martin System®의 자극이 다른 것들보다 더 'activation stem'(활성화 자극)에 가깝다고 들었음. [88:58]e-collar로 'activate'(활성화)가 가능하며, 훈련사가 유능해야 함. [89:30]pinch collar(핀치 칼라)나 choker(초크 체인)로도 개를 활성화할 수 있음. [89:30]Martin System®의 차별점: 사용자들의 선호도를 고려함. [89:30]USB 스틱을 통해 사용자가 자극 선호도(preferences)를 변경할 수 있음. [89:30]Tritronic 제품은 'pulsating electricity'(맥동 전기)로 유명했음. [89:59]Tritronic의 'tap tap tap'(초당 약 3회 펄스) 패턴은 마치 'Harley Davidson'의 소음 패턴과 같음. [89:59]gobobby.be 웹사이트를 참고할 것. [90:26]e-collar 관련 블로그 글이 다수 존재함. [90:26]e-collar 브랜드 간의 오해와 NePoPo® 훈련 철학black belt karate(가라테 검은 띠)를 딸 수 있다고 믿지 않기 때문에 온라인 교육을 신중하게 생각함 [91:29]Chameleon®을 샀는데 세미나 강사가 Doctora로는 활성화(activate)가 가능하지만 Martin System®으로는 안 된다고 하더라)라고 말함 [91:55]Chameleon®을 사용하든 어떤 e-collar 브랜드든 훈련 방식에 따라 결과가 달라짐 [92:20]tap(톡 누르기)하고 음식(food)을 줌 [91:55]tap하고 음식을 줌 [91:55]tap하면 개가 보호자에게 오고 음식을 주는 과정을 반복 [92:20]e-collar의 자극 방식과 학습 원리:tap-release(누르고 떼기)를 반복하면 자극이 없는(no stim) 휴식 순간이 생김 [92:50]relaxed moment(편안한 순간)가 반드시 필요함 [92:50]bitework와 근육 수축(Muscle Contraction)의 관계bitework(물기 훈련) 시 높은 레벨의 자극을 사용할 때 주의할 점:collar(칼라)로 계속해서 자극을 주면 개가 out(물기 놓기)을 할 수 없음 [93:40]e-collar는 TENS unit(경피적 전기신경자극기)과 유사하게 근육을 수축시키는 원리를 가짐 [94:08]bitework에서는 근육을 계속 조이는 것이 아니라 tap-release를 통해 근육이 풀릴 수 있게 해야 함 [93:40]Martin System®의 기술적 사양과 표준화 노력millijoule(밀리줄) 수치를 담은 차트를 온라인에 공개할 계획임 [94:08]stim(자극) 수치를 비교할 수 있게 돕기 위함임 [94:08]Martin System® 엔지니어가 자사 제품의 millijoule을 공식적으로 발표할 것임 [94:37]Martin System®의 강점은 SSC(Safe Stimulation Control) 기술에 있음 [94:37]millijoule 값이 일정하게 유지되도록 보장함 [94:37]SSC는 벨기에 동물 복지법(Belgian welfare)에서 collar의 합법성(legal)을 판단하는 파라미터로 인정받은 특허 기술임 [94:37]NePoPo® School(학교)은 세미나와 달리 채찍(평가 기준)이 존재함 — [96:16]pinch collar(핀치 칼라)나 e-collar(전자 칼라) 등을 사용하다가 소송(under siege)에 휘말릴 경우를 대비함 — [97:28]NePoPo®가 인간과 개 사이의 커뮤니케이션을 쉽게 만든 것에 대해 감사를 표함 — [98:30]Chameleon® 제품을 구매하여 반려견과의 관계를 최상의 잠재력으로 이끌고 싶다는 의지를 밝힘 — [98:30]Bart를 처음 만났던 ICP(International Association of Canine Professionals) 행사 당시를 회상함. [99:28]Bart는 진행자에게 다가와 직접적으로 "you look like you need to shave"(너 면도를 해야 할 것 같아)라고 말함. [99:28]Bart의 태도에 대해 "i love this guy i'm quite direct"(이 사람이 마음에 든다, 나는 꽤 직설적인 편이다)라고 반응함. [99:28]Bart에게 지적을 받거나 문제가 된 적은 없었지만, Bart가 보여주는 특유의 솔직함과 자유로운 태도가 좋다고 언급함. [99:28]Bart는 진행자의 성향에 대해 "that's right you come in loud you come through loud and clear"(맞다, 당신은 분명하고 확실하게 의사를 전달한다)라고 화답함. [99:57]Bart와 Michael은 시청자들에게 감사를 표함. [99:57]NePoPo®와 Martin System®을 더 많은 사람이 볼 수 있도록 영상 공유 버튼을 눌러줄 것을 요청함. [99:57]martinsystemsshop.com을 통해 Bart와 Michael에게 연락하거나 질문할 수 있음을 안내함. [99:57]Super Bowl이 열리는 일요일임. [100:25]Bart와 Michael도 시청자들에게 감사의 인사를 전하며 방송을 마침. [100:51][00:00] We are live right now ladies and gentlemen welcome to another live stream the first live stream of 2019 and we have Michael and Bart Bellin hi you guys hi Bill hi everybody where are you guys out in the world what do you mean where are we living yeah where are you living where are we talking to you we are living [00:25] in Belgium yeah I'm in Seattle so it's a quite a quite a bit of difference was 8 a.m. in the morning oh no it's 9 a.m. now in the morning here and you guys are about ready to have dinner over there so what I'm doing now is I am sharing this and I know people are just joining us now and if you wouldn't mind I know a lot of people wanted to watch this live so if you're watching this go ahead and hit [00:54] that share button let's get this information far and wide and don't don't forget to ask any questions down in the comment section below and tell us where you're from in the world where you're watching this from I'm in Seattle the balance are in Belgium and we have people from all over the world that tune into these lives live streams is super cool so means not only English people but also [01:22] people not speaking English so I suppose slow in our conversation that's right that's right do you how many do you do speak any other languages other than English part I do I speak English I speak United Kingdom English I speak French German [01:48] Netherlands and a little bit of Swahili Swahili yeah it's crazy to me that you come America and one language you know I wish my well me now you guys have a lot of a lot of different countries around you too well let's say like this the younger you start with eating foreign languages the better you become you know and you're young you don't have to study it you [02:21] just please it's like before the same thing that's right formative years so the format tiv years and that's the format that you're gonna be wanting to use for the rest of your life and during that that that time if we can make that format big so I can accept a lot of information and that includes many different languages and you're [02:48] absolutely right it's same same in dog training or it drains you very fast learn another language because you were trained in a lot language skill and you fastly will adapt that system to other languages which is similar also to that came oh yeah and in what way well you generalize I mean you
[03:17] learn a new language the first language it's like in shaping the first shaping exercise is the most complicated though and the second will go faster and the third the fourth the fifth the sixth the seventh whatever will go faster and faster and the first is the mother language there's a mother language huh oh yeah that's why the longer you stay on your first exercise the harder it is to go to the second exercise [03:45] mmm the longer you stay on your mother language English 20 years the harder it is to learn another language that's it's a common thing in IPO where people don't want to keep the dab the stand in motion until they're ready for the two or the three they don't teach it right away but then they sit and the down and [04:11] the stand comes more difficult because they didn't they had so much practice and so much repetition on the the first two that the third is a little stumbling oh yeah well if you teach it if you teach all three at the same time it's more fluid they're both they're all layered together it looks yeah but at the end it's [04:38] easier yes so say that again Bart it looks it looks more difficult it's much easier it looks more difficult because they must learn three things instead of two that's right and I've heard that the shaping exercises are kind of like giving the dog the right answer you know and showing them hey look this is what we want this is this is it and then the dog is exploring and then once they've done it do you guys use a [05:08] clicker or anything to indicate where do you how do you indicate that the dog is doing exactly what you want well let's say like this for the public and for public appearances we use a normal clicker or we use the whistle because the whistle in our scores is allowed in competition where the clicker is not allowing competition why should we not use the whistle as a clicker and a lot of people get confused by [05:37] that when they see that because it's a little bit not normal and when we click or when we whistle it means stop doing you do the right job come and pick up your surprise your surprise which might be money or might be no money it's a package so but you say like money you're not handing them like a quarter you're handing them dog money right is that the what do you mean by money whatever the money is to the
[06:07] dog if it's a a toy a slack in the beginning certainly like the existential food exactly because I think go ahead well I think that helps people understand because they get motivated for money and that's what I call dog money all the time you know pay that dog pay him you know they've done a good job pay them and you know I think that that and and I'm glad to hear you say that but you know what really quick [06:38] I know we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves I want I want people to know anybody who's watching right now we have we have a ton of listeners from all over the world New York State Switzerland Greenville South Carolina here in Seattle would you mind given a quick a quick bio and just tell people what you do where you're located we said Belgium and then just basically what is Bart Bellen [07:08] Neil Popo and just kind of a quick synopsis to help our listeners out that might not know you well to start with my first name is Bart my family name is Bellen I married with Michael and since we married she's also a Bellen that's family wise and me study wise I was a sport teacher okay Michael you [07:40] a lot of things I went to school and have a degree in psychology I worked in a hospital and I did some other things and then I started a golf business so but I was never a sport teacher or no and then we met in room two thirty two that's where we did math in the room two thirty two no ten years ago yeah at a dog event [08:14] yeah the dog training seminar and then me the day before the seminar I always look let me interrupt let me interrupt I drove there to the seminar at the encouragement of my friends because they were like oh Bart's so great and I never heard of him but I went to the [08:40] host's house and they said oh my gosh Mr. Bellen he just left and I was like oh okay so I went to my hotel I didn't know I didn't see him or anything next day the next day so the day before the seminar I always walk around in the hotel where most of the time they put or they also host the guests [09:08] and I always like to see the cars they drive with the trailers I'm a little bit interested in the gear and I remember very well on the park place there was a Mercedes Sprinter which is not a typically American brand and I was looking at the huh the Sprinter here and I still remember the advertising on the door was DC Metro canine and then was a lady coming which later I knew it was Michael with the German
[09:42] shepherd pulling on the leash and then we start speaking and then she asked me are you there for the seminar see yeah and then the next day she saw me in front of the public and then she was looking like me like you joker and then it's the rest is history you guys uh got along and did he fix did your dog uh stop pulling or [10:12] uh did you get some answers in that seminar there Michael it's not about pulling it's about on purpose letting the dog pull on the pool collar yeah so means that especially if you want to do bite work we like and there's different opinions about that that the dog must know that a big large collar there it's allowed and later it's a must to pull it's a must right direction of the target [10:38] and in the bite work we like dogs and there again everybody his personal opinion we like the dog to have a little bit struggle with its airflow because in the old dog training schools oh yeah when the dog is a little bit without air the bite is much more serious and much more drier and that's why you see a lot of helpers grabbing for what we call the choke color and during the bite [11:12] give a little bit pressure in the bite take away air play with the air and there you see dogs that are very nervous starts to be very very concentrated and biting very hard and of course this must be done very well and we have an anecdote about that when i was a little kid i think 15 years old i was already in belgium in one of the leading [11:41] mvbk clubs and word was spread that in a club not far from our club there were always dogs biting like crocodiles and i was very interested in that and i did drive with my bicycle or my little moped i don't remember anymore i didn't drive to that [12:10] village where the club was and there i was a little bit disappointed because the helper was about 60 years old and he did nothing he didn't move the dogs were biting very hard and very viciously and out he was trying to choke them but he could not choke them so the result was a hard bite but no out and i was a little bit like huh i don't understand and i went home disappointed and i think two or three weeks later [12:41] it was triggering me again and i went back and that day i was even more disappointed now the helper was 75 years old sitting in a chair and yes the dogs were biting hard and at the end no out choking choking but still no out and there bingo i would grab it the helper did nothing to make the dog bite the dog had to bite
[13:08] from himself and the choking was the magic involuntary biting cue that today top trainers used to make dogs biting much harder and much drier oh yeah it's it just but you know as a little kid i grabbed that like thing a lot of things like that happen in the dog training where you have an intention of one thing [13:36] but the dog interprets it differently and your result is not what you expected but you can use it somewhere else yeah it isn't that well that's why one of the most important things is read the dog and read the picture because for one dog it will do this and for another dog it will do that there is no 100 rules that's why it's dog training you know yeah every dog is an individual yes sir and you're working [14:05] with the dog at the end of that leash you're not working with the shepherd you just worked with you're working with that dog right then and right now you know and that's important and then the other thing to know is that uh this is the sport world and where people would look at uh you know some of the stuff that that uh they do in the sport world and they have no clue uh a lot of times what these dogs are even capable of and um you know what what were you were you born i mean did your father work dogs or [14:35] anything bart no i come out of the family where we had the guard dog in africa so they were on a long cable and on the cable there was a chain and they had to guard the property that was it but that's a little a little bit was mean enough to bite everybody lucky lucky is a dog name huh name was lucky yeah [15:07] it was um i don't know what it was but it was little and vicious there's a picture actually if you look at the art villain biography on the website i think there's a picture of lucky there that's possible yeah and bart is a little kid holding the chain so so what what what was your interest in getting into sport then bart and what was i mean i said you were 15 when you went and saw these guys a 60 year old [15:32] and a 75 uh helper let's say like this the same question is for everybody what is your entrance what is your interest in doc training and why do you invest so much time in it the same for other sports or other passions somewhere somewhere there must have been a trigger for michael i'm sure she has a trigger and i think i
[16:01] have the trigger it's it's it's more than one trigger i think that the day i was born i think two or three months later my parents did receive that little dog lucky so i did draw with that dog and it created the picture of what life should be i think that's one thing and then i think i was around seven years old and then i received a nice little book and the name of the book was uncle boom lala [16:35] and his seven dogs uncle what boom lala boom lala it's a name like trada boom lala okay boom lala was a circus artist that did do circus acts with his little dogs it was fascinating me and i think that that there's something and actually people used to call bart circus man oh yeah in the beginning of my career [17:02] because i do a lot of exercises in those days that are not requested and is more based on with sex that whole weave and the wrong healing on the left healing on the right healing in the middle now everybody does it but 10 or 15 years ago no no and i always did it from in the beginning as a young kid and all the old men always said don't do it you you blow up your dog the dog doesn't need that it's already [17:32] difficult enough like this yes but i was stubborn i continue everybody always says that your dog doesn't need that and then what i did see very fast was that all the tricks the dog did with pleasure and fun and even if the dog did not know the trick well nobody did see it and the exercises the dog did not do with pleasure it means that you have the right technique to learn the tricks but you don't have the [18:00] right technique training strategy to learn the exercises and that's why michael and i came up with the idea well let's teach every exercise like a trick and then slowly name it when we are happy and i later when he must do it he's still flashy and he does it on cue that's nipple pull okay so it's a very long story how it slowly came together it's a very very slow process you know yeah and then we look back [18:33] and we see it you know that we're here today but i think you know that you let your dog be your expert you didn't listen to these guys these mentors you know you still kind of listen to that intrinsic drive that uh that that the relationship with that animal brought about um what about you michael what what got you into working dogs and um you said that you were working in the hospital before as a in a psychology field um and i'm sure a lot of correlates there too huh yeah well i i always had when we were
[19:05] a kid we always had a dog we had three dogs when i was growing up and my name before we had dogs my neighbor had a dog and the dog was lost and i was the only one who could find it so i had a and i rode horses so i i've been involved with animals all my life um and then when i went to uh university and i have a degree in psychology that uh a lot of the things i learned there has been instrumental in developing [19:40] the criteria for the school yeah yeah it's you know if you bring two people together that have the nachi and you find the the oral to bring them together that you needed a lot of oil yeah well that was happening because i like to me so it means that two very stubborn persons together with very strong ideas [20:12] well we we cook the whole thing you know so the there is a lot of monkey see monkey do in dog training and certainly reports for example i see today a lot of defensive in the bite work me personally i cannot see that because 99 of the times it's not done well so if you don't understand defense don't touch it and if you look at the dogs they are not in defense they are still in prey so i mean at the end they're [20:42] still playing the games so and and that's what happening with people do without them and that was the fun thing by michael and me we did speak about all the things and the why's why the why and that's why the why is your power that's what i tell people if you don't know the why you're doing this you're [21:08] spinning your wheels here you don't you don't you're not rooted down in anything you're just doing something because somebody told you and that's why i say why why are you doing that and then they just look at me because i saw somebody else do it i was like that's that's not a good why i normally tell people do nothing unless there's a reason to do something do something only for as a reaction to the [21:35] dog's action you do something an example by going around the world a lot of times we did see people having a toy under their arm as a healing target yes they look to the dog the dog is not looking to the healing target the toy the dog is looking to the eyes of the handler and then we tell the folks
[22:01] what are you doing well my dog is in direct reward he looks to the toy and i will say no he's not looking to the toy he's looking to your eyes so or you do it on purpose to have a conflict there which is the ball or just throw the ball away you don't need that ball you have your eyes that's it so people do things but they don't grab what they do so well it'd be like saying to a kid you know say [22:27] thank you but i'm going to put a 20 bill right here to ensure that you say thank you or do the etiquette that is needed it's it kind of it kind of messes it up you know it's not real it's not it's not a real connection real commitment and it's and and when you when you do pay these dogs they've really earned it and it's a and it's a true uh relationship there instead of trying to throw the money uh put the cart [22:54] before the horse you know and try to pay pay pay pay pay for nothing that the dog has done is is uh to me like paying a kid 20 bucks for saying every time they said thank you or something this is basic etiquette and if we pay the kid at the wrong time it's going to have a negative effect on that behavior um for the rest of their life and and it's just not understanding that real quick we have uh larry crone he says good morning folks so he says he's watching with us good old larry um and then what [23:23] you were saying earlier about the the choke and making the dog bite uh john sparks uh here um he says this that same collar pressure causes a lot of pet dogs to launch or bite uh uh other dogs unintentional by handler yes yes of course you can generalize this on a lot of things yes and it creates also pleasure in the minds of the dogs taking away the air and at a certain moment getting it back [23:54] makes them very vicious well that's why kids play that game today it makes them happy but when they go too far with it they kill themselves i'm not kidding that's what happened oh yeah well that's that's a really good point that i think that john made about uh you know just to to how that correlates into even though you're a sport uh dog person that a lot of this information can be gleaned and there's pearls
[24:23] everywhere even with these positive clicker trainers man i go watch them and there's a pearl you know even even if it's uh you know a lot of it is might be hogwash there's something in there that you can learn and it's important to have eclectic knowledge base um in dog training because like as we were saying earlier every single dog is an individual and there's something that's going to happen that's going to throw a stick in your program that you know these gremlins that pop up with behavior [24:51] um that it is important to have that eclectic knowledge base well going back to what we were speaking about before treating every dog the same or doing things that you really don't need to do a lot of people are in the mindset of we need to build drive for example but not all dogs you need to build drive some you want to calm them down so you must read your dog and say hey i don't i'm not trying [25:22] to get him more gung-ho i'm trying to get him more stable and whoa uh so again find the off button i'm trying to hit the off button on this dog you know you just see a lot of that even that and it's just because people aren't reading their dogs we call it you must train your dog in exercise and immediately opposite of the exercise if you stay too long in one direction it's so hard to go in the other direction [25:54] can you give me an example well for example 20 years ago in the bike sports nobody nobody was able to make the dog look to the handler nobody all our dogs were looking around like crocodiles who am i gonna grab and then if you look at the old videos you see that oh yeah so there was never focus on handler no and then slowly came focus on handler and the style and the style so far that a lot of dogs even never [26:28] looked to look to the helper anymore and that specific phenomena you did see in the back transport in the rpo the dog was looking to the handler but not to the helper yeah okay so we did see the long the same thing in the long tackles in the in the dog sports the dog were looking to the handler the helper was making a noise [26:54] 30 yards further walked away slowly 30 yards further but because the dog did look up he did not see the helper moving and then you said right and the dog was running to the place he did he did here yeah the helper do it chakra but he did not visualize it and that's why the top trainers today they have what we call control control on the focus look to me look to it whatever this and michael and i we call it helper
[27:27] no matter can be the ball the football a person whatever that's helper and we're on our hand with a piece of food and slowly it's again you know look to me look to help her look to me look to help her and then you put pressure look to me look to help her the same pressure for exercise the same pressure for opposite exercise that's what most people cannot do yeah and that's that's what makes it uh uh very nice [27:58] especially with the the biting biting and outing holding and giving teaching them at the same time makes them very even they're they're equivalent so they're just as happy to because they must they must out and they must bite it's the same for example if you look to the little videos that michael did post from a dog named and four or from her last dog she has now what's his name again right now we have so many [28:31] dogs i guess i'm joking but i mean for us they go in the bike words so the first exercise we always learn is hold out hold out hold give hold give because in our bike sports in the obedience there is two exercises where they have to fetch something and give it it's 20 points from 120 20 points on that [29:00] so by training it from when they're young it's a piece of cake it also makes it easier when you when you already have that reflex response of a good give out when you're whistling or when you're outing your dog in the bite work it's a reflex response that's why michael uses the whistle when she does those games with their little pups okay good job coming at the money but in the top sports ring sports [29:27] for example you can use the whistle and you use your training tool in competition why should you not do that exercise build the whole give hold give later in the bite work for example in the ring sports 280 points out on biting and outing but if your dog is not biting you have zero points but if your dog is not [29:55] outing zero points finished so it means that the two are equal and it doesn't mean because your dog will out that he doesn't like to bite oh yeah people have that idea they they want to stay very long he must really bite like a killer before i teach the out yeah that's too obsessive it teaches us and not like that but you know and this is all awareness that's all we're teaching this dog is awareness to be aware of everything that's going on in this environment we belong to a world that's rich with
[30:25] external stimuli almost infinite amount of external stimuli and we belong to a world where chaos is inevitable at any minute and it's fair it's actually our moral obligation to teach these dogs how to exist in this world because we're bringing them into the human world and you're giving them the right answer both on this and then let me show you contrast this now let me show you this let me show [30:55] you that let me show you this let me show you that now show me beautiful you know and then it's it's opening up those lines of communication in a simple way that that dog is knows that right answer and that's that's basically it that's shaping what i was saying earlier about showing that dog that right answer before we move on um and also check it in yeah it's the same as come to me and go yes company and go [31:23] there you don't have to have to come be lightning fast before you teach the go there if they both come up together yeah well and if your dog is only coming to you guess what they're going to get separation anxiety because that's all they know and so when you go away that dog is like oh crap this the the thing that's kicking in his head that we have uh uh conditioned is going off those neural those neurons [31:50] are starting to fire and be like hey this is not what i've been shown i'm starting to have doubts fears anxieties flooding my body and that's not fair to that animal we have to show them uh you know the the other side the contrast of what that is and uh we have a couple comments here the bite release video with ragnar was very helpful valerie says um this training style works great for me with uh task [32:18] training retrieve exercises with pet and service dogs the take give combo has been very helpful doesn't just have to be sport uh bite work one of my goals and one of the reasons why i have so many inner people um on on these uh interviews in the sport world and in the pet world is that i think that we can learn so much and we can uh have unity and um together we don't need to have such a big [32:51] division in the dog world um and that's that's absolutely right all this information that you're learning these pearls of wisdom can be applied to pet can be applied to service dogs can be applied to just bring your relationship with your beloved animal to the fullest potential that it can be i agree yeah and you know that's why mike and i were very disappointed if we go around the world
[33:18] or specifically in the known dog sport countries that you see still the old-fashioned trainings from 50 years ago and then you're thinking how the hell is this possible we are now 50 years later with so many possibilities for people via the internet via seminars or whatever to learn something no the big [33:46] chief said this and we say on that old pad makes me crazy well we all have these little boxes in our pocket and in fact we're talking live on the technology that we use every single day you know to access and to uh disseminate and to produce information and and not only that but we also have equipment and in my opinion you guys are producing the best equipment in the world um with martin systems [34:12] and the e-callers the electric callers that that you guys have um there um can i speak on that sir of course the first dog that i was quite successful with was a certain flip f l u p and i did buy flop from a guy that was seven times belgian channel so he was not a dumbass [34:46] he could not control that crazy animal and i still remember today when i did pay for that dog 80 000 belgian from in 96 96 no sorry 1986 it's long ago and i had to give jeff news was his name 10 stud fees so he could come to me with bitches bitches bitches bitches bitches then i had to let my dog do the job 10 stud fees [35:21] and i was a very big opponent i was against the e-cars because in the old days when you push the button it was only one level the maximum level yes on the helicopter did fly over the dog was receiving a stimulation and when the cbs of police patrols was going on the dogs were zapped so i had very bad [35:48] experience with that so for me it was a no-go until the day that i had that crazy dog that was not outing and why was he not doubting because as a young dog he did not bite and then one day he started biting and the old owner did let him bite and no out and no out and no out and then slowly with the choker and he became more and more vicious also and we were talking about earlier that dog with no [36:19] physical systems everything they did was a part of the game to bite harder for the dog the out stimulations were part of the game to bite harder it was conflict training for him so but why he did not know was electricity and i never forget the name there was a guy lose zemi in my club long ago and he
[36:45] had one of the first in those days dt systems around the neck of the dog and his dog was flying out i said look give me that thing i'm a bark when you break it do you pay me back i said hey i will pay whatever you want i want to see if my dog is out there and immediately around his neck there was no training for we learned the dog to use two three weeks to wear the collar i know i want to see it [37:15] immediately i zapped the button he did fly out you cannot believe i said aha now i'm pro-ecology because that was much better than all the other brutality that did not help and it made the dog tougher and tougher and i did buy in those days my first color and that was a german brand checker i never forget it again i had to pay again more than 80 000 belgian from which was a lot of money in those [37:43] days and i did two long tackles and the thing was flying out of each other as a young guy with not a lot of money and then i did buy the tritronics with one pin and that worked quite okay with the antenna until the roof and then and now you must listen very well i created a own training remote control with an engineer [38:10] that i did pay for that and everything was ready it was the first first remote control that by transmitter you could change the levels because in those days it was not the transmitter on the receiver you have to change resistors okay so that i was already my wheels were spinning and i didn't pay an engineer and then the day was there i went to the banks [38:40] and i think it's one of the first and the last times that he ever cried the banks did not want to support it and i was no no sir because there was only three crazy guys in the world like you and blah blah blah okay at the end it was a lucky shot that the banks were not giving the money because three months later [39:05] there was a brand inno tech that came on the market inno tech and we could buy those little things for 300 euro in those days uh money about 300 euro no it was more it was 20 000 belgium front it was a little bit more than 300 euro and very small and a little transmitter with a booster and that's how i learned to [39:33] know the big bosses from you know that greg frank hughlin steve gill which are still good friends you know yeah absolutely rogues i mean yeah we we respect each other very well but that's how i remember greg was telling me a story about you jumping a fence or something for a dog well let me continue first because that's our start yeah and then i worked a while for inno tech you know that has been sold
[40:01] radio systems and i was at radio systems as a consultant and one of my jobs was to investigating competitors and then i did buy all the brands and you know which came out as number one for me martin the little belgian brands martin system and i said that to the management of radio systems and [40:28] i don't know if they did grab it they did hear me but they did not like the idea i suppose and then i was spaced and then i went away from radio systems and i became a consultant for martin systems and that's how by accident i came to that brand martin systems and i became a good personal friend from charles martin who was a hunter and specialized in bird hunting and pointing dogs so don't underestimate mr martin so he [41:02] mr martin's pleasure was not to make money because he was not interested in making money he was interested to be the most innovative on market make cool gadgets gadgets yeah yeah well that eventually will help dogs and help uh open up the lines of communication with people and dogs yes and no we did not achieve to reach the world with all the specialities that they have so we were good in our little niche we could [41:31] not spread the word enough and then two years ago by accident michael and darwin give the demonstration on a martin systems event and in the evening the family comes to us and say michael bart are you guys eventually interested of taking over the company and we were like huh what are you asking us we were [41:58] shocked and said what's going on and then they said well mr mr martin has alzheimer okay i did see the little while already that there was something going on that i didn't know the verdict and then michael and i had our little powwow and we said okay we are interested and then it took eight months michael nine months with the help of professionals for the lines we owe those guys so much for alliance is a company [42:29] specialized in taking over companies purchasing and they did find where where everybody was happy anyway if one day we would stop with martin systems we can write a book that will become a best seller this part of our life is one of the most stressful parts because michael is smart i'm smart but we are not educated for this type of deals you know there's a lot of legal stuff patents financial stuff you need
[43:02] you know the moving parts yeah and now michael and i we are the only dog trainers in the world that are the ceos from the e-collar company so we go where we want to go and yes we sometimes must go where the money is but on the other side we also follow our dreams yes we do that well i i have to say that the with the all the the uproar about e-collars around the world and how e-collars are becoming [43:33] forbidden in more and more countries every year yeah we do feel that there are uh two major reasons uh two major reasons why uh why it's e-collars get a bad rap one is uh that the callers are not [43:59] up to snuff yes the the consistent the consistent levels involuntary stim from uh changing of the impedance of the dog's skin uh battery life that's not a that's not a animal welfare question but uh those those things it impact the dogs adversely and when people see it it creates a bad feeling [44:35] so martin's system has the ssc patent which is a a patent where the the transmitter and the receiver speak to each other so every how many seconds it's like 20 times a second and it it it adapts automatically the output so that the dog feels the same like the preset level and and also another [45:03] very important part why uh the e-collars on the siege is education of the trainers yes this is this is specific technical features the big problem is that the end consumer joe bob wants an e-collar that's it he doesn't know enough to decide what do i really want and they pick up a color they pick up uh size of antenna they have a very specific but well it's it's very similar i when [45:36] i bought my first persian rug i went into the store and i saw one and the guy told me the price and i said uh can you go lower than that and yes it was a kashan and he said lady you don't know anything about persian rugs that road looks the same to you as that one it's right with e-collars people don't know enough to know what they're shopping for well and at the end it's a money deal and so and the money [46:05] drives the volume that's typically american sentence and we did hear a lot of quite angry emails why are you guys so expensive why are you guys so expensive and well there was a reason for that there was patents we we did the whole explanation and it's too much to explain here yeah but now being the bosses of a company we understand better why the most e-collar companies don't come with novelties because
[46:37] they have so big quantities to produce that if there is a bug they have 10 000 pieces that come back so they go for the no risk and they try to make it so low in price that people buy and buy and buy and they can sell and sell and sell which is big business and there's nothing wrong to that but there is not enough innovation if you see the iphone world there the innovation goes much faster [47:03] the computer innovation goes much faster and everybody technology technology and e-collar should be considered technology also yes we do consider it technology well i'm looking on amazon right now and i see i just typed in electric collar and i'm i'm just i'm cringing here because i see one the best seller is 39.99 40 bucks american you know 40 dollars american and the color that i use of most here [47:34] is the e-collar the mini educator 200 bucks yeah you know um and that's you know that's that's the good quality color here but it's also i mean we're i mean it's it's you can't quality you you pay for what you get now let's say like this what we are very amazed to see is the the price anti barks are sold [48:01] we know that anti bark is the most complicated tool to make to make safe so that the dog is only stint when he barks during the action of barking not after not after most anti barks react after the barking and that's why a lot of strong dogs start barking and it's about interpretation is the stem a correction or is the stem a [48:31] aversive stem aversive stem comes together with unwanted action correction comes after the fact that the dog is disobedient so but it's only a correction that works i tell you the anti-bark is the most difficult color and we are so amazed to see that it's so cheap but the the going back to what bart was saying the second reason why e-collars are under siege is because of the training yeah spoon yeah it's it's part it's part of [49:04] the the popo nay culture of training what is nay popo what is that uh what does that mean nepo is a negative positive positive system okay so it's a little bit like i could take a leash pull a leash when the dog starts coming in my direction i stop pulling on the leash and i give him a treat a piece [49:32] of his food easy easy i push it's name i stop pushing this phone stopping the pressure this feels positive and then you can add but a lot of a lot of the old system is when we get this this email a lot at our e-collar company is it's about time i buy an e-collar because my dog is misbehaving
[50:02] so they go to popopone and the problem of popopone is the net comes Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female Female [50:38] to accept pressure as a language as a friendly language well i can speak with a low voice to you and i can raise my voice if needed well the same thing with pressure you can that's a tactile command they used in horse riding everybody understands that with my hand i can be very nice to my wife with the same hand she can be more brutal to me i mean more points so right but [51:06] it that's a very clear explanation and i never know what to say when people send those emails i never really know what to say because it's not training it's a business where we sell collars but we're trainers also because we're an e-collar company owned by dog trainers what people don't understand is a short question can be a whole book of nonsense oh man i know all about that you know
[51:35] and that's where people you know they friends and family they're like hey man could i ask you a couple questions about my dog you know and i'm just like well uh yeah no no yeah i'm like how much how much you got left on your credit card i don't know the english word for very complicated mathematic exercises but imagine a person that doesn't know how do you call it the vehicles uh calculus calculus is that [52:05] the thing there i don't know algorithms maybe whatever so a person that doesn't know calculation asks you that question calculus yeah how can you go there without going to the basics you must go to the basics and then after five years you can answer the question and dog training is the same people always jump over the basic things right and it's in the clubs the same and they all want to see a young [52:33] dog from two months or three months old biting they don't impress me they learned a little dog to smoke cocaine the little dog was learned to behave how do you want to be happy with obedience later explain that so it's like people already asked michael hey biting your dog is biting what we say well we hope so but we train first and of course we let him grow and he's good in prey and [53:03] everything but we are not interested in the biting we're interested in harmony and when he's right we will let him bite but that will be so easy but that's what people don't grab people are never interested in the basics they only are interested in what what we call the cheeky cheeky taca training a helper that jumps around and walks and makes a lot of noise we want harmony when we say out he must come [53:31] back well it's a part of that that teaching the hold give you know the both sides of the training you know you have to teach them both otherwise you're just giving them one side of the of the coin and when they see the other side they don't know you know they're like we want to minimize the fighting yeah absolutely well and um we have a comment here i think the crap on amazon if we're talking about [53:58] those e-callers uh the crap on amazon and pet box stores drives the animal welfare activists uh that could be true absolutely i mean in an emotional arena uh that we're in people get very salacious um uh you know because they love their dogs i get it but a lot of times i think that that they try to think with their emotions in the training here and you can't think with your emotions folks
[54:26] right right no that's that's and then let's go back to marketing systems now michael and i with two full-time jobs we have the napole training school which was there before we were the owners of marketing systems it's a very powerful tool so it's a little bit like you have now your school and they can [54:52] propagate the bible the bible is the e-call you see what i mean so but we try to be very uh honestly what we do but honest i mean the school must stay to school and yes we like our students to have good tools but until now we never did oblige them you can only do the school if you use more consistent you see what i mean we could do that we even don't do that so we can get to the best that's why [55:20] my life i think it's a press too man and the finger kick and then the the the sensor this is the game changer folks is a sensor that shows that we have contact before we even begin we call it the contact measurements that that right there is the game changer in my opinion because so many times i'm trying to get the level of this dog he turns his head and oh my gosh i just hit him at a heart a higher level because the contact wasn't made that i was not aware of and guess what we just did [55:48] we we just uh introduced distrust we just introduced uh you know i'm trying to build rapport and build power and build with our relationship with this dog and boom we just wiped all that stuff clean and and to me when i first saw that my my brain was just like oh my goodness when can i get this right now like i want this right now i want that extra insurance that i know that this is making contact here and so uh you [56:17] know that's the proper um innovation i believe what you also must know is that michael and i 10 years ago we started the idea of the chameleon the chameleon is the slicky color that is very discreet looking and that you can adapt to the changing politic environment where you move in or out it means that by remote control you can take out all [56:51] stimulation so that there is never a proof that you did use stimulation we call it we have a delete kick in the last 10 years when we worked a lot in germany where the use of the e-color is not allowed well everybody know that the barbellon seminar were standing for modern training with modern training tools and yes the e-color is part of it i never had problems never never never in despite of all the
[57:23] advertising that was done but i was always ready with the delete finger kick to push out stimulation so that they can not catch me on with a smoking gun you see what i mean yeah so but the the the chameleon is more than the electronics and it's the the chameleon is a mechanical patent that makes it so that you [57:51] have perfect contact because if you have a box on the end and you have contacts on the box the box is the heaviest part so it's always you're right you have to tighten it very tight in order to get it in order to make it so that your contact points are always touching the neck this creates a variety of problems [58:16] with contact and also with necrosis because it always falls to the same spot you see a lot of people if their dog starts being in the process in on the on the neck they move the box to here but what happens after a half hour it's done here again here again and then they move it and then guess what it doesn't it doesn't change so with the chameleon because you don't have a box you don't have a weight [58:42] and in fact even a weight helps because a weight would just pull the sides in yes and make contact better but there is no uh for the extender the contact is on the side so the box actually helps the contact and for the chameleon you have no weight it's weight is evenly distributed and you have perfect [59:08] you can move the contact points where you want you can use feather contacts on it you have the contact measurement feature and if you have necrosis you can move your contact points and that's the whole beauty of it that was a design to make contact better and to make necrosis a thing of the past yeah those feathers those feather points are something else too man oh it is beautiful but it's more than the [59:35] beauty aspect of it can you slide it over just a little bit my you're like holding it right behind where my head is so over to the other side other side the other way there you go perfect so right there so we see the point so if you point out the points on the side there so right there's there's a feather point and then there's a feather point there so those are the what make the contact on the dog's neck and then we have the light that shows uh when the stimulus is is hit or when the contact is being made
[60:05] there's a cycle of lights that go through and um i'll bring a transmitter so we can see it yeah and then um i put these things on me too you know and i was having them hit me with this stuff and um yeah i mean it's it's remarkable and the thing is is that this was invented for professionals by professionals and now you can see the light lighting up there now if she makes contact with her thumbs there you'll see the lights change a little bit there see that so when she doesn't make contact we [60:37] have the lights going off to show you that there's no contact but once the contact is made and lights go off so before we even start we know that we're making contact and to me that is humongous yes well when uh i use this on my puppy and when i put it on i raise his head and i just look okay we have to contact if we don't i know i must brush him i must move it i i'm i know for sure i've contact [61:10] but it means that michael and i 10 years ago we had a vision the e-color is on the stage that's why we create the chameleon we did protect the name with a trademark which is now since a while registered a lot of patents and we did shop around for the e-color brand to put in and we did choose the martin systems [61:35] brand to be at the inside of this molded plastic you know yeah and then you know we licensed all the thing from martin systems so we did pay the company martin systems to sell us electronics and to be able to sell the chameleon for our little store the bcbb no yeah yeah bcbb store and well it created something [62:05] magic this is what we call the extender where all the other brands can put their brickstone on it and then it's a lookalike of the chameleon in functionality okay but not real because you don't have the contact measurement the only thing you have is the side contacts but it's already the beginning what michael and i will offer very soon to the other brands is to put their electronics at [62:36] the inside that will come so we are ready for that step it's we're apple we're on our next phone you understand what i mean but you have you have diehards in every brand that say well i like to stick with my brand why not so the only thing is we will put it in another well it's the same as with dog training is we feel if it's working for you it's making harmony then you do something right
[63:02] if you like your color and it's working for you and you the last thing okay so michael and i will it complete the whole chameleon dream the last thing that we still gonna do is we're gonna put a finger clicker on market that if you push on this it will click that you hear it it will not be electronics it'll be a regular clicker it will be a regular clicker that the picture of your ring [63:28] is not approved that you did use whatever it's just a clicker and yes it will be quite expensive because that mold is again what people don't understand is that moldings cost 30 000 euro a little thing like that 30 000 how do you want to amortize that over 30 000 pieces well in which year will we sell 30 000 pieces in the year 25 that looks like 20 20 20 20 next year you guys are gonna [63:57] so and people must understand that things that we do have a price of that's right we must pay for the r d we're two people we're two people without a big company like radio systems you know what i did i did i just came back from the martin systems today so i have to drive three hours and i didn't do quality control [64:22] so myself so all the ctt's and all the chameleons i'm the pester around my neck i test everything he does i'm not kidding you should have heard him when he was testing the bark collar at the office he was barking he was barking well we have people here that are daniel says amazing didn't know about this collar uh and he says outstanding i use the e-collar on my shepherd all day since we are out most of the [64:52] day in the country wonderful you're pushing the technology of this tool i need the feathers for sure um and so yeah there's people out there and that's that's the goal here and not only that but martin system shop.com that's that's how if you guys want to find out more about the chameleon and actually order it um go ahead and visit the shop and you can reach out to them and and um you know i i i don't i don't endorse anything and i don't you know unless i use it you know and the colors that i [65:22] typically use just because of the price point are e-collar.com you know greg's uh the many educators and stuff but this is the color that i dream about you know this is for me and my and my little guy so this my little girl right here can you guys see her you know she's you know i want to i want to get the little guy or the little colors for my little guys and i was looking at them um and and with the chameleon and the way that you have uh this collar you can actually put it on i've tried
[65:53] the nano or other different colors for these dogs and it is a big old brick you know bottom of this dog or these feather um what people must understand is that the chameleon we are we can put a lot of high-tech technology it means that the charging of the battery is with induction which is very innovative and for a lot of people [66:24] quite difficult because they are used to the usb port that's right what we do see is change is hard people are so hard to change from habits good or bad whatever it's a habit and they're like so when they try to do that but with this color we are limited in size so we cannot serve the real small dogs that's why we need to invent the extenders and that's a medium and this is a [66:52] medium we also have it smaller that that fits small dogs the chihuahua yeah and we're going to tell you a secret first of march we launched chameleon tree small medium large but don't say don't tell it further i won't tell anybody we are on and in october we launched chameleon four don't tell nobody okay you got it and look at this [67:23] bart and michael are like steve jobs and apple the outstanding innovators and that's all because dog trainers innovate dog trainers tools and that's the point and that's it too is that we need to look at a lot of these uh a lot of these tools uh are invented by an engineer or somebody that really they get an idea of the electricity part of it and how to put together but it doesn't really translate and they [67:49] don't have the little nuances of the dog training uh like the esoteric knowledge of working with thousands of dogs to see how this could actually benefit and um you know and and um you know i think that because you guys are trainers that you have a unique perspective and the product that you're going to produce is going to be not just top of the line but uh the the go-to for for many professionals you [68:18] know i'm i'm drooling over this stuff you know like like i love it and um for me the traditional e-collar bulky and heavy for small dogs yeah yeah say it again absolutely well you have an artistic side that bill i see that when you work things that you do with glass you like to create things well michael and i were the same and for me it comes when i was a little kid in africa we had no toys we had nothing
[68:43] so we have to create our own tools by imagination so a big imagination is what i did bring back out of africa yeah love it regardless of what you believe in and i'm going to get out there a little bit on the philosophical tip but we because we come from a creator regardless of who you you know a creator created us and therefore if we come from a creator that means that we are many creators and [69:11] that's why we're here to create and to uh innovate and to explore principles on this plane of existence by doing and by learning and um and so that's that's exactly why we're here an example what looks like very very easy is the feathers which is not easy do you see it can you see the background you must have put white paper oh you can just hold it really close up to the camera and then you can [69:39] hold it right there yeah yeah perfect this is stainless steel it must bend bend and it must come back so michael and i had to find a balance between flexibility and durability because we can make it so strong that it cannot break but then it cannot bend and it pushes again for necrosis so you have to [70:07] find the balance does it break well maybe one two percent do break and then if you look why it breaks it's because people are putting leashes on it you cannot believe what people do it's oh yeah i know and yes sometimes accidents do happen i mean and yes sometimes or dogs that scratch they scratch so hard you cannot believe with the back pole with the power and that's how it can happen [70:33] but yeah we see also the the little dogs are really left out of the e-collar train you know and when you when you look at this with the small would be minus an island on each side and your collar would go your receiver would go here so you see it can be quite small go ahead and put that around your wrist if you don't mind just so that you can show people how what that looks like you know medium so it goes [71:05] smaller than this folks smaller than this yes so it could fit around my wrist the small could fit around my wrist i did put a picture already on facebook but you know it's fun for michael and me we are the bosses of the company but on the other side we also learned that we must be able to pay our colleagues we also learned that we have to pay suppliers we also learned that we have to pay for everything so
[71:32] it has a price and it's it's on our shoulders yeah what we do see is that since we have the company we triple the figures so we don't double we triple wait and we do that together with those hard working colleagues but we are also coached by that company for reliance and they do the and the the the projects and the forecast and in the beginning they were asking mark on me um what [72:00] you think we will increase five percent ten percent and we said no you don't yeah we were looking just like are you guys crazy or what yes we know the market so we hey i i know in the old days inno tech double tripled every year you cannot believe i'm trying to find my old inno tech books i have in here with the old collars on them too you have them in a museum you know bill it's like ecolog technology [72:30] came on market 10 years ago where everybody was telling the market is full well ecolog technology shows the opposite they fly high they double they double they double it's unbelievable what they did the last 10 years why should be able to do it there is not one company in the whole world that has the whole range of products that we do have at martin systems with the innovation we have pigeon launches we have [72:57] fuzzand launches we have beepers we have falcon mps gps we have dock gps we have anti-bark we have invisible fence we have the traditional lala for the pet people and then we have the more sophisticated stuff and then we have the chameleon product line tell me which company does do that and then what people don't know is that we are an r d company research and development one of our engineers did [73:28] develop a tool for mining people that if they go in the prohibited areas there is an alarm going off you cannot believe okay it's to save lives to save life which we have very strong unions and the union say the workers and certainly the lonely workers must have that tool but he means lonely workers the people who work solo in the dark yes where no one can see them the the next project is the man down the man down [73:58] means there is a man down the system must tell the headquarters that the lonely man is done we call this a reactive system we will go further we're going to create an active system i will not reveal secrets with michael but the system will tell half an hour before hard attack comes you already revealed some secrets yeah i won't tell anybody you're saying the same with me we reveal secret is because we don't want
[74:29] you to tell it i mean in my life sentence what two people know a lot of people will know soon yes yes the chameleon the chameleon is not a standalone remote and caller it needs uh it needs a martin system transmitter that it can be paired to so yeah we have a question here terry asks what i want to make sure [74:57] i'm understanding uh the chameleon isn't a standalone remote caller it is just it is used in conjunction with the martin brand callers is what he's saying in case of that doesn't work with the martin brand callers with martin system transmitters okay so but the the extender is a chameleon brand it's a chameleon brand and this can be used with your doctora or with your equal technologies [75:24] oh okay or with your uh garment or man right this can be used with whichever brand you have the chameleon where the electronics are built into it must have a transmitter that they're compatible with same as if you have a dog chair receiver you can't pair your doctora receiver to my martin system transmitter it doesn't work right so he would very good question yeah yeah so he would buy the receiver [75:56] um and you have this all bundled up and everything right you get a separate and that's the nice thing about the martin system products and the chameleon products is you can get they they you can get this and pair it to this and then you can buy a different transmitter and also pair it to this and you can sell this or you can keep it as an extra one or you can buy a micro and you can pair your micro and your [76:22] chameleon to this transmitter you can buy an extra finger kick and show the finger kick real quick too because that when i first saw uh martin systems i was blown away by this thing and yeah so that goes around the finger because a lot of dogs will get they'll get collar wise and they'll also get with the remote and these people will wear the remote on their vest or something like that and then as soon as they start to reach for that that dog will be like oh crap you know you must listen actually i i [76:56] i have a story for you go ahead the uh the the the famous bart stance when the dog lays down yes 96. it's because that was the position where he got a zap from the e-caller and you must stay down the old tri-tronic which was the big tube yes under and of course people don't know that but people copy
[77:25] that move yep everyone copies that move and as if it's the lay down command but really the dog just caught on yep aha yeah look at that you guys so this is uh from the 70s look at the my gosh that's the tri-tronic eye understanding electric dog turning color with this they would do the uh vibration and then just boom nail them you know and then that dog would be because it would be calm vibrate and [77:54] then here here it comes man if you don't if you recall it's flying to me you're about ready to get nailed you know another thing bill this is injected molding again that's what people don't grab people always want to open things we know that what people can open water will come in yes and they always say no i did not do it we know it water comes in yeah that's why we decide we make it so that [78:22] they cannot open it yeah but if after 10 years the battery is dead well i've here a watch from a very g-shock well-known brand g-shock and then you read you read the warranty there is no warranty on the battery because they say that if i always push on the light i kill my battery very fast and that's why [78:47] they don't give warranty on the battery everything is michael and i we are obliged to give in europe a two-year full warranty which we do and we also do it in the rest of the world we must not but we do so we take care of our people and after the warranty we will always always help the people absolutely i have been using the chameleon too for two more than two years with three finger kicks [79:14] outstanding all capital letters communication tool now if you check if you check a bluetooth that's how you do it folks you have your finger you have your transmitter you hold it behind your back and then you push if it's working then you have a good bluetooth device why your body is more than 90 percent water and water blocks the bluetooth signal we went to those pains so if you buy a system [79:46] with bluetooth do that test transmit it in front of you your button with bluetooth behind your back and push because that normally does happen when you're always when you're working off i do it all the time yeah i mean even just you'll find you're in that configuration as as a helper this is my preferred combination this is the tool ctt you put that on your arm or something right don't you have it where
[80:15] you can put it on your arm arm but here in this case we put it around our waist like this okay and we do it antenna and rotation of down so that we can watch we watch and now you know which level you are and you can flip around you put it wherever you can go swim with it this is especially made for that so this is the real tactical stuff that we make for tactical people police and army and what do [80:42] we see who buys it the most joe bob buys it the most he said how is it possible we make it for tactical people and joe bob the finger kick more and more pet people wants this because they want to have their transmitter in the purse or wherever and they want to be able to bite with their dog they want to be able to do errands and get their dog out of the car or carry their groceries it was never designed for that but people are smart and they find out hey it's a technology world i want immediately when i drive my [81:15] car i want to push on the button by the way be quiet now do you see this this is the smallest gps locator in the world the smallest among we can find 32 dogs with a color like this with one handheld unit this is non-seed in the world and we have one engineer that does this we are the companies that have 150 [81:45] engineers and have big bulky stuff i don't understand that so somebody does something wrong or somebody does something right i think that we do something right but we cannot reach the market with our too high prices because people only compare price shooting and they never compare what's behind the price functionality never so with cars they do because with cars they have more knowledge and with pants [82:14] they do oh yeah yeah well well everything and i think that we're just not there i still think that we're in the emerging uh market here and the more that people uh see how this the the many different ways that this can be used in the applications that it can be um you know and that's a that's a very good point i'm sorry to interrupt but no worries different applications because we use the e-caller as a do [82:41] tool also yeah mostly as a dual tool almost always as a dual tool it's not you know it's a tap i heard a lady say it's a tap on the shoulder when the voice isn't working you know and that was kind of like okay cool that that that helps you know it just kind of it brings the communication a step further um of course at the end the dog must avoid the tap on the shoulder in competition but not for pet people
[83:12] the pet people you can use a tap on the shoulder forever it's not a problem yep absolutely well quality is not cheap uh uh alexa so you know and that's that's it and and you know i i encourage people to just check out the products you know and i i love just how how he's so i mean throwing it on me and shocking i mean hitting me with it and then walking you know uh through through the um when i first [83:39] saw bart how i got introduced to you was you put these e-callers he was on the international association canine professionals and you put the e-callers on people and then you had a hundred dollar bill so you put real money out there and then you had these people try to get this this bill wearing the collars and you were controlling them and i thought that that was fantastic man yeah the lady won [84:05] what's that lady won yes she did she got it well if she was a dog we would say she's a good bitch let's breed her good thing i don't know who it was otherwise i'd have to tag her you know people will pay one thousand dollars for a year for a new phone but stint uh on a good collar for a working [84:32] dog and i just think that they don't know you know i think that a lot of this is that they they um you know they just don't know what they don't know and as we move further along on this and and uh people see the dogs that are being produced um and that's the other thing that got my attention too i think it was with uh fred hassan and sit means sit a long long time ago and and the stuff that he was doing um was i was like how the heck are these dogs doing this you know what's going on here you know and [85:01] there's some like magic happening here i've never seen anything like this and so we let the dogs show us you know that that they're the expert um what i did like about fred hassan is fred never never never denied the e-collar never he was always open and frank about it and that's what making michael and i sick the whole world especially in europe is a little bit confused about the e-collar because the [85:32] people that know how to work with dogs tell the world they do it without they're just liars because if michael and i show the enforcers of our company to the whole world a lot of professionals positive professionals would be have losing their faces what we can say is we were we will never do that it's also a secret that we have to to keep but i mean why just not telling the whole world that it's part
[86:01] of harmony and and that's another thing is uh we've gotten a lot of questions from people asking would we get e-collar seminars no e-collar workshop i refuse and it's not a e-collar is just a tool in the system and we think it's just a tool it's a tool and it's how you use it it's like i was a young kid [86:28] and i came in belgium and the first club i had two clubs in my life the first club i was was about five six hundred meters from the door of my parents in those days a top club and there was an old man and i never forget his name jeff size and jeff size was certainly a guy that did influence me a lot he was a very smart guy and very successful with dogs and he came out of horse world and he told me [87:00] mannequin and mannequin in my language means little guy little man little man and here in my hand i have a bamboo because in those days we trained dogs with a bamboo stick and he said with the bamboo you must be able to give the dog guidance direction direction with the same bamboo speed up reinforce of the command with the same bamboo you must say no and then bam bam you what is us that's you charge the word no with [87:32] the consequence what other people don't do they say no no no but the dog continues why because they don't charge the word if you charge you you must also charge you your stop word whatever it is well and do it doing what's right doesn't always feel good and that's the other thing that that the people do is that this doesn't feel good to me and i'm telling them it does it's not supposed to feel good because it's a it's a correction we're we're charging this up this is something that the dog doesn't want to [88:00] repeat again yes and then the same bamboo you must be able to pet your dog to cut it in and then after you whack his ass you can shift and you you throw the bamboo away you say fetch if you can do all that with your bamboo then your doctrine he told me i was not right to understand it and at the end that's what the e-color is you can do a lot of communication with it and if you go too far in one direction [88:30] then it becomes that if i use this just for bam bam when the dog sees it he's afraid of it he's not going to let me pet him with it he's not going to get it apprehension it builds apprehension and distrust if you do it wrong you know and that's if they're clear in their head then it means something in that context and it means something in that picture and it means something in that picture and then it's clear one more question you guys and then i'm gonna let you go we've
[88:58] been we've been talking for a while here i know you guys got to do dinner and i i so appreciate your time today this has been fabulous this has been better than i even uh was picturing uh bart can you explain the difference in the feel of the stem between martin system collars and other common collars dogtra ect garmin i don't have a martin collar but i've been told that the stem is more of an activation stem than other collars do you have a comment for that i'm gonna ask that [89:30] it's easy you can activate with every color from every brand you must be a good dog trainer you can activate a dog with a pinch collar you can also activate a dog with a choker whatever i mean if the dog understands your stimulation you can activate him with every brand but what we did do especially with our brand is we know the preferences of people that's why in our brand people with a usb [89:59] stick can change their preferences for example the old tritronic was known for pulsating electricity tap tap tap it's about three pulses per second and tritronic in those days that even patterns that stimulation pattern is like the harley davidson that pattern their noise and you can also check uh the [90:26] go bobby site where he wrote uh an article about the different um uh the different peaks of electricity in the different brands and he did a comparison and he's scientifically minded so if you go to go bobby.be you will find a fair number of articles in the blog about uh e-callers what was the name of [90:58] that michael go bobby oh bobby dot be bobby dot be bobby dot be i'm gonna answer that question with an anecdote about activating what people must know is that always free to ask for a video chat with michael or with me okay we will give people five ten minutes to explain the tool we will not give training [91:29] on video because i don't believe in becoming black belt karate via online some people do michael now we don't do too much anyway but the guy is in a video chat with me and he said hey bart i did buy a chameleon and i was on a seminar and the seminarist told with doctora [91:55] you can activate and not with martin systems because with martin systems and then he did like this it does i say okay maybe you push the line say it's easy tap your button of our brand on the low level giving food giving food tap giving food one week later you go one level higher tap he will come to you
[92:20] you give him food tap he comes you give him food now you change the feeling of the steam in a do something and then after three weeks you say hey bart my dog is very active now on the chameleon i thought the chameleon was not making your dog active it has nothing to do with the type of e-collar brands it has to do with how you train your dog what is true what is true is that if you tap release tap [92:50] release tap release tap release tap release there is more moments of no stim and the dog needs that relaxed moment to learn yeah that's progress yes we for example with our brand we have 200 peaks in one second it goes very fast okay with a usb stick we can change it in three times per second by factory [93:15] setting we said it so that from level 11 it's top release top release top release and on the low levels you have 200 peaks you can change it yes but that makes more sense because in the in the for the low levels it's when you're training and when you're using it as real communication and the dog is in lower drive theoretically and the higher ones you have a tap and a stop and a tap so [93:40] they can think and especially bite work because the most people bite it or you buy it for the bite work on the high levels unfortunately yes and if you tap with a normal color with a lot of stimulation peaks the dog cannot out because you activate the muscles to hold and that's why we want to tap release yeah muscle contraction yes muscle that's right but this is a tens unit you know and they use it in physical [94:08] therapy because it contracts those muscles and you can actually see if it gets to a higher stem you can actually see that that muscle contraction here well and then before stopping bill you're gonna make a promise between this and two months we get we're gonna put a charter online that level one is so much millijoule level two is so much jewel level three so that people can compare with their brands that [94:37] people because what frustrates us well they must ask it to their brands whatever i will not measure other brands our engineer will announce our millijoules and our advantage is 100 percent that whatever the resistance is our millijoules stay the same because with a classic brand because we have ssc yes that's the most important patent for us the ssc that's the patent that was even accepted in belgian welfare
[95:10] as a parameter for colors to be to be legal that they must have that okay and we the company we are prepared to share the patent with other brands if they come and they have a fair discussion why should we keep it for us there is no reason so we are going to benefit dogs you know that's why we're here benefit dogs at the end of the day you know um so people uh daniel says he wants to know if you're [95:38] going to be bringing to uh coming to canada with your nipo po you guys have any seminars scheduled by chance in canada i don't do seminars anymore it's no go oh there you go only that's cool come to him you got to go to him now folks no so uh thank you for your time in educational chat what's that bart sometimes you must turn the page you know what the problem of a seminar is you are a little bit doesn't [96:03] you you're a performer at the end of your performance it's about people having fun and oh it was funny la la la la la but you never knew what do people take home yeah what did they learn and you have no whip in the school we have a whip you must make 90 or you are not qualified to go to gold and in gold you must do well or you don't receive your gold certificate just because you pay doesn't mean [96:31] you yes yeah standards are huge man and the standards that they should be very very high especially in the sport world in my opinion that's why that's precision and uh you know and that's where a lot of these standards have gone by the wayside you know it's like the everybody gets a trophy type of thing of course it is a little bit like a driver's license because you can pass your driver's test and then hit a tree the next day yes or actually three years down the road you you have a whole bunch of [97:01] tickets but it doesn't not it's not measuring that it's measuring on that day when you weren't evaluated you you you had a good enough score to pass the rest is experienced and what michael what michael tries to explain you is that from every student we will keep the files for 10 years for the day that one of the students ever is under siege because he or she was using [97:28] pinch collar e-collar or whatever then we can say well that lady or that gentleman was very well performing and it's not because there is a claim against them that they are faulty it can be that the people that are charging them of a claim are very innocent and know nothing so we will with pleasure plead for those people and say whoa whoa whoa don't judge them before you know the whole thing because they learn a
[97:56] lot and yes sometimes people can do mistakes and then we will also say that but i mean we have the files of everybody for 10 years for when it burns and stinks we could eventually prove that that day that it passed they were very very knowledgeable yeah well valerie says a classroom work is entirely designed to help the students succeed if they do the work class was amazing thank you well michael and bart i want to [98:30] thank you two for being uh sharing your day with me today and and uh all this information and and just thank you for innovating and making um you know communication easier for people and dogs and i look forward to owning one of your chameleon products and and uh bringing my relationship with my dogs to the fullest potential um when i have that that uh the tool that that fits them very well i i'm i'm so looking [98:58] forward to having one of your collars on my dogs hey bill tell people that my english is not perfect and that sometimes it confuses the brain you know can i say it yeah for example the words lazy is it a lazy fox is it a lazy fox or is it lazy fox i think the first one lazy is just well the you know [99:28] that uh the first time i ever met um bart was at the icp my my beard was so like ungroomed and stuff i'm like hey bart you walk up to me you're like you you look like you need to shave oh yeah i was like i love this guy i'm quite direct yes i always come away with some things i never was in trouble about that never but that's the freedom of the chester i suppose [99:57] that's right you come in loud you come through loud and clear bart well thank you very much you guys and if you hold on for one second i'm gonna i'm gonna say goodbye to you on the other end here and everybody if you're watching this make sure to hit that share button uh so we can get as many people watching this and showing them the the excellent product and martin systems and then also let me show the the website here really quick martinsystemsshop.com uh reach [100:25] out to bart and michael and um and say hi and if you have any questions ask them and and thank you everybody it's super bowl sunday here in america so everybody's gonna be partying and watching the football game so uh i i i really don't know i'm gonna be playing with my dogs so i don't really know who's playing or anything not really important to me but everybody else have a wonderful day in america and um and then hold on you guys i'll say goodbye to you on the other end [100:51] bye everybody thanks for watching bye everybody thanks for having us bye bye everybody you
Bow Wow Bill and The Bellons Talk Dog 3 February 2019 3 February 2019 Interview with The Bellons, from Bow Wow Bill
Martin System®peaktap-release 방식이 적용되도록 세팅되어 있음 [93:15]peak가 작동하며, 이는 낮은 drive(드라이브) 상태에서 실질적인 소통(real communication)을 할 때 유용함 [93:15]tap과 stop(멈춤)이 명확히 구분되어 개가 생각할 시간을 가질 수 있음 [93:15]