Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 57: Johan Weckhuyzen

something prior well I must say when I graduated from University as a let's say school teacher for sport what I never did I never was in school I just give private trainings or whatever but not in school but I have my University degree and I bought myself a dog the day that I graduated and it was a old English she dog because it was in 1984 and uh of course because I know nothing about dogs I say I need to go to a club so after couple trainings they start to tell me about uh dog Sport and competitions and I was like oh okay like I'm a really sport guy okay competition I motivated and so I started to do some obedience with the dog and in 88 I uh competed for the first time in the Belgium championship in obedience Belgium obedience and in 88 also that's a important date because January 888 I bought my first Belgium shepherd and like you mentioned already it was a l one and his name was Max kabos and uh I must say it is in my heart when I do something I go for not 100% I go for 200% and so uh I meet people I meet people with Belgium shepherds so that's the reason I bought this laa and uh all the look for me the lady that was breeding the laas she also had the dogs from Luke from the depot to Kel at home with her she took care of about I don't remember exactly but maybe 10 15 dogs of Luke were in her place and a lot of Ls were born in her place so that's also how I met Luke but in that time when I met Luke I was already in a club I changed from Club from Oban Club I went to a Belgium ring club and there I came in contact with Lucian Rivier who was a 17 times Belgium champion in ring Sport and uh there I started to do decoying I started to train and of course when when you're a sport guy and you compete you want to win you want to do good and every time I go I went one step further and further with my lers was in the start and uh with Max I can say in I don't remember the date I think in ' 92 uh I was competing then already in CA and in C I became Champion with the L against the males and the boues that were competing at that time and with luia so I did a good Evolution and at the same time look came there with the breeding program I started to know so I start I bought my first malinoa I think in 199 and so okay then it goes quickly because you go and you go you do one step further and two step further and in very short time I had 10 15 dogs at home so in 95 uh I started then professionally as a boarding kenel and the boarding kenel okay uh was interesting to do with my wife but that's not really my thing I really in the dogs in the sport and with' look I met Andre varl who is still my uh vice president who is now

recovering from a very bad accident he had in August last year but uh I can say he doing well now so that's good and uh from one came another and so I came completely involved in the dogs uh professionally it brought me with the boarding Kel I came into the position that people start to ask me hey you can you find us a dog we need dogs for the Army we need dogs for this we need dogs for that so uh I came in this world uh from buying and selling dogs adult dogs trained dogs uh we had to prepare those dogs for the clients like all those things uh so that went on till I think about 10 years ago because it was interesting to know that my first client was Joseph Rella in 1992 I still remember very well and Jose Rell was he was buying dogs for French army for Air Force and he was uh at that time already uh full-time busy with explosive detection dogs uh in the Army and he did a lot of things he did he was responsible when he met me for buying the dogs training the dogs and training the teams and uh that became very very intense relationship and beside the sport of course course and uh with Joseph he changed from army to private companies in the year 2000 where he became responsible for the airport in Paris for all the detection dogs for explosive detection dos and he had 60 teams under him after six years she said hey youan six or eight years she said Yan I start to get bored because I'm not working for myself and I want to start up a company and so I joined him in the company in France and we formed the company named K9 detction detection Ceno and and uh that was very very very intense let say like that so I deci and that brought good money I must say like this yeah yeah and so at that time I decided to go to start this same project in Belgium but in Belgium there was nothing yet there was no explosive dogs privately but with the law the European law that was there uh the possibility was present so in uh 2011 I started with my new company in detection dos K9 detection Belgium and what I'm still doing now about six years ago I made up a new training center K9 detection training uh because we need need it for all the dogs that we tra that we use on the on the airport in Brussels and the airport in oanda and this is a bit the professional way how my career went in 92 also the same year with Andre vle uh Andre he started by organizing a first competition for Belgium shepherds like a European championship in Germany and uh there it was was at that time V ridle who was uh organizing together with Peter angle from DMC and uh so Andre asked me heyan can you check up if you can have a igp uh Team to compete say oh oh igp said nothing about

igp I'm I'm a ring guy yeah so uh say okay I take a look and I will talk because most of the guys in the igp at that time with malinoa they were Flemish guys so it was difficult for Andre and Luke while French speaking to have the contact you do the about this me talking with look this was very complicated yes yes and that's uh the first competition we did was in Germany and we did uh igp and monitoring and three years later in uh because okay they then I was unlucky I must say I unlucky by the way of speaking um because every time they did a meeting I was the only guy who spoke French who spoke Flemish who spoke German and I I speak four languages soate yeah so as I had to translate all the time everybody started to uh phone me and ask me all the questions and yeah I got really involved in let's say in what became fmbb the the idea everything that's the time when everything got planted yes exactly and three years later we organized in Bren where I still have my office here uh the first world championship because then uh Team from America was there and I still have my t-shirt from the championship oh really okay yes okay that's it was one of the first I mean I mean it was for me and for everybody it was a very important event it was the first world championship as you said you know and it was in Belgium and it was a yeah it was a important event like really it it made the beginning of something great you know yes yes exactly exactly because uh on those every time on these competitions that's when we started to discuss with all the team leaders how we do next year and I got more and more involved and we said okay we decide and I must say there is for sure Andre who take really the lead in uh in the planning and saying hey we should do that and that and I was a little bit executor from all the plans that Andre had and uh so we were growing and growing and then uh with all the talks we have all around uh we decided in 2003 to organize the first time in the Han the multiple Championship with all five disciplines and everybody said hey Yan you're crazy you're crazy yes I know I'm crazy like I said in the start when I go for something I go for 200% and uh so that was let's say quite a good success and I remember the also I mean I you know like my memory is not like I don't remember names for example I don't remember certain things but then I remember strange things like I remember pretty much to to little details the Ming setup in the H because it was such a beautiful I mean the the place where it was and the idea with the kind of like the beach uh Team if you remember it was just so so cool exactly and another thing we also

did in the H when we did the the parade with all the teams up in front we had a guy from France with a laoa and some sheep and there was also the first time that we tried to introduce the sheep hering in the and I still have those pictures of course so that was also a thing that we planned and the next years after the Hound okay we had some different difficulties to find the countries that wanted to organize because they were I must say they were afraid they was scary this is a scary commitment I how big it was even even today it's it's scary right it's a yes that's that's true but so a good organization then uh you can collect so what happened after the H where did it go uh after the H oh I know know we went to Slovenia and I remember very well like in Slovenia we also did the muring yeah then I started from home with my van and my trailer behind with everything for the moning because in Slovenia they had no muring yes and I can say I did that for several years that on every competition I came I put up the fields with some of my friends of course I cannot do it alone but like that we could could introduce the sport and uh okay when we see that uh the last championship before we had Corona it was in czechy there we had 850 dogs competing in uh in all the different disciplines that we had because we started with five but now we are on 10 already 10 different competitions and already for this year uh I can say for the first time we split up the world championship because we have already a first uh World Championship in Belgium in end of April for the search and rescue dogs okay because Greece already told us because okay maybe you you know normally it should be in Portugal this year yes but last summer when we asked hey but you didn't sign the contract yet yeah but we don't sign the contract and then we were blocked okay and we could find Greece that organized to years ago or three years ago three years ago yeah two three years ago yeah yeah yeah we had now Italy Romania and before Romania it was also with Greece so Greece said they put out the Helping Hands and um but they could not do the search and rescue and not the sh sheep hering so we say okay no problem we organize it on a different date and now we have uh uh because we had nobody so my club in Belgium we decided okay we do the search and rescue and and I must say for me uh that is a very very important step that we do because the search and rescue for me for the future is a very important discipline uh because if we check on the sport and all the difficulties we have with Animal Welfare so with search and rescue there is I mean as far as I know like there are

different different competitions with different their own little rules like what what kind of um is a world search and rescue organization and what rules would they have for for championship for this okay well uh I must say the search and rescue is already organized quite some years by uh FCI and by eru which is not FCI Association but uh they work a lot together so FCI and ero they accept the the judges from the the other Association so and you can compete in both of the competitions okay okay sense uh the rules and like with all the competitions we do or standard rules are FCI rules okay we have uh we have signed a contract with FCI uh that we follow the rules and that we uh take FCI judges and things like that but we are not a real FCI member we are recognized we have a a coroporation contracts let's say like that which is not a bad thing I think you know no I think it's a good thing because uh like this I always say you don't have to invent the warm water yeah uh if something is there and you can use it you can better use and say hey I will make up something completely new and and then the rules they are a little bit different and and also in some ways you have much more control of of the organization than yes being answering to FCI for for every little thing right yes exactly exactly let's go back to we we'll go we'll come to to fnbb but let's go back to history a little bit okay um because um you you're one of the very few people that I personally know that had the passion with the Lino and and the understanding of the the dogs at the time and then they unfortunately just just um yeah there there is as far as I remember and know right now there are like few maybe maybe three can channels that are trying something to do with um recognizing the temperament and character but but it's pretty much even even in the show circles they are becoming not so common to to the to the point that I I remember again like early 90s people are you walk a Malin on the street and they're like what is this so you had to tell people like 20 minutes of explanation if you really wanted to tell them what the type of dog you have it seems today that when people see Lao that's kind of how they are they're like what is this what kind of terrier or what what what is that dog like they're very rare right now my question because again you you have the training experience and you worked with both malice and linoa what what would you say the interesting differences and commonalities between the two if you compare what did you like like you personally well uh how I started with is because in my club in Le I had a good

friend Yan also Yan and he was competing in obedience with L female and uh in the club he was also in the club in Leake uh in the club he was also training some bite work because he wanted to do the s s is like a a little Belgium ring program but for dogs that doing shows and that want to have Belgium championship title right that's like a a test they have to do yeah so um I said at that time oh everybody has like a Malino and I saw this L with the curly hair and in that time I also had a little bit curly hair but that's long time ago and now we wear glasses yes and uh no but I like the dog a lot and he was working very well and so I said hey youan I had my old English sheep dog and at that moment uh my girlfriend before I was at that moment she said no no second dog and this and that and so one day she decided to split up and leave so the next day I was calling for a dog and I say hey if she come back it's too late then I have my dog but okay she didn't come back okay but that's history right but Yan said hey but the breeder where I bought before who I work together they have a little right now and we can go and at that time I didn't know when anything about the Shepherds because that will be the first one that I buy and uh but I'm somebody I'm always trying to be informed before I do something and uh so I checked a bit on the lake and this and pedigrees and I needed to understand a little bit and when we went there uh the lady iin it was uh uh the kenel V cricos with l was the breeder and uh so Lin she explained me everything and uh she showed me the pedigrees and yeah in Belgium you know we have the white pedigrees and we had the rose pedigrees yeah and the rose pedig explain a little bit yeah for for everybody and the the white pedigrees there's a full pedigree recognized and in Belgium you can if your dog has no pedigree you can bu show uh get a rose pedigree but then only the name of the dog that did the show is mentioned and that's Annex in the in the in the stud book and so when I checked the puppies they would have a rose ping say hey but this how can I do how can I compete and then she explain me yes but you you know the mother of your L of the one that I bought in Max the mother of that she is a a mixed breed between a malinoa and a laa so at that moment I was worried holy [ __ ] no I want a pure bread dog and but Yan on the way back home he said no no no it's 100% sure it's official and this and that and so then I I decide anyway to to take a l but the L the mother was mixed from m was and L was and later on when I started to study well in pedigrees I could see that also the mother of the

mother I'm pretty sure that also there was Mala in behind I cannot find it back on the Pedigree but that's one of the problems uh in the early years that the pedig they were not always the interesting story of the malinoa and the Belgian Shepherds that's a very interesting for everybody those times were very interesting good times and also uh if you go back in history and you go back to the first dogs that were registered in the start of the 1900s because the first malinoa in the Belgium stud book was in 1903 192 193 something like that I think the name was Vos Vos the bers okay it's and uh but if you check on the origins the Malino the start of the malinoa and the start of the leoa they come out of the same parents they have the same not the same parents really but the same dogs are in both P yeah so this brings that sometimes uh in breeding of of Malinois sometimes you get Malinois with like a little rough coat a stripe of rough coat of the back and this is the origins of the L that is now more than 100 years years ago yeah but we still see it and uh so when they uh did this interv variation where my Marx was coming out of uh also there the dog that they used uh he had already given Malino with such a rough coat on the back of course and so we didn't lose so much on the coat by doing we I didn't do it it was Evelyn who did it at that time uh so uh the coach of this second generation was already perfect L wash and uh so if you talk now when you say okay the laa and the malinoa uh all depends on the blood lines that you use why they come right right and if we see like we mentioned in the start my friend Jo with kot okay he competed with the best Malin was and he could get sometimes better points than the best Mar oh if if he I mean if if he was you know trained how we know how to train today he was a he was a strong dog yes exactly he was a strong dog like I remember him biting it was always with intention it's like I'm not playing here no no no no no that's true and it's it's a funny story but the first time that J went for his ipu one at that time it was IPO what is now igp right but uh so the first time just to help him I said okay just uh I have also one I will train a little bit igp and uh I go with you to support you even I was a ring guy but I did it and so we went both witha to competition in Doberman club and they see is coming and say hey poodles are not welcome here on competitions like this yeah okay we do our best we do our best after the competition because Jos he did the bite work and if I remember well he left the field with 99 in bite work everybody was like oh how did this dog do that and

later on in the history in his career lots of time on world championships the helpers that did the bite work they come and see me they say Hey [ __ ] youran the bite the hardest bite we had on our arm it was L how did you do that how did you do that so it was very funny but I was shot he was later on very important in my breeding because he gave very social dogs but is sometimes a problem in the L was and I can recognize quite fast the dogs out of this origin and kot was used quite a lot and we see people that use him on beauty lines and and start to because most of L was I say beauty lines uh when I started with MOX there was not so much working with the lcos it was because he he was very rare but and also one of the the nice things I had one day we competed in the in the Holland championship of the club and all the big the malinoa handlers from that time they were participating like tlar like van rosam kop all the big ones that came to the world championships and they didn't know so well Jo and uh I didn't know kot and kot he was lucky to do the last dog bite work so everybody was standing there because bite work you know how it is when dogs biting in igp Everybody is watching dogs do The Obedience but okay you see a little bit public because then it's the time to go and drink something yes uh but everybody was there standing and I remember still because now still my head on my arms is starting to raise U the judge he started his command when he finished the thing well he said when I look now it's a shame I have to wait to the last dog to see a dog who was really biting so all the other one were oh and I was like holy [ __ ] what this and also there he he he stepped out with 99 points in the in the bite work and that's for a l so those are really extremely nice memories that is a so do you do you I don't know when when was possible to collect and and freeze Cen but um I don't know when did that started I know um did you miss that opportunity with kot or I I must say I already in that time I did some frozen Cen and I still have I still have what I have SE from Max my L yeah I have SE from Kish and I have seen from one of my famous Mar yeah I know St I'm trying to talk to you here and there every once in a while I keept talking about this one you know what happened I'll tell you a really kind of unfortunate story with with turos and I don't think we've talked about this one very like I mean he was super special dog no like and and we we can go into the story but the bottom line is he he was the duor dog he and and eventually you contacted me cuz I I really liked him you knew that I like him and it was just

a right perfect opportunity to to buy him so I did and I collected him a a lot of times like I collected him I'm like I'm going to have Frozen Cen from this dog until I'm done breeding in my life but I made a very big mistake I put all the cement into One Bank in one Hospital oh okay and inan what happened and I don't know it's because of Florida with the hurricane electricity whatever happened in the clinic at one time I tried to breed and and it's not happening I try another one I try four different females and it's not happening but before like like we already used them we used Frozen Cen like for friends that wanted to breed to him so he was there and he was very strong but something happened in the clinic and the Sean got destroyed and it was very very heartbreaking because uh even though he was dead already in my head I I had him you know and and for me he really died the moment I realized that the San is gone finally and and it was I get goosebumps too it's just one of the sad moments you know so like right now with every dog and this is for anybody that's listening ADV if you ever collect cement split it in two different places so you know that you have it because uh I was always thinking oh I have enough I had like so many straws for so many breedings all gone you know very very sad but that's amazing that you do have the the from the Lina that's very important how did the I mean how even the name what is the name how did the name come that uh VOR how did the name come yeah well very stupid very very stupid uh because I'm I'm not so strong in names because some of the guys that buy puppy from me say hey you where did you pick up this name where did you pick up this name so uh it was for the litter of of kyot because I must say I was not really interested in start breeding so I had a couple of litters with Max with Myla but that was on the K name of crius or from my friend Johan on V here that were the two said yeah but that on your name if it's female from you it's on your K name it's female from you it's on your K name so and one day so I do the breeding for kot and so I called to Evelyn and say hey Evelyn my female daughter from Max she had the puppies and I made it him with this man uh can you ask for the pedigrees and she said to me hey Johan the mail you used I don't like him I don't ask pedigrees for this said what what I do now oh no it's it's your problem oh okay so then I had to ask and sent bear very quickly a kettle name because without Kettle name it's it's not yes yes and if you ask a Ken name at that time I don't know how it is now but at that time we had to give 10 names yes so I was like looking in

history and some historical names say oh maybe that maybe that and so I the last one was over [ __ ] what what else can I put what else can I put and I'm from Newport where we organized uh also a second time third time the World Championship in 2012 um I'm from Newport and there is an old Tower from the 13th century and uh the name in our language is dor okay I said oh like I'm from Newport I will call him I will say the last one for the DOR it's the 10 they will never take it okay so good one that's the history of my Kell and I say uh theor it's how you say it's the language that we really speak in Newport and that's a real dialect and it comes from the Dil and the Dil with L is the devil so it's the Devil's Tower and they have ancient pictures from the first world war when the the normally it's the St Len I Tower when he was destroyed by the Germans and that was not the first time that the tower was destroyed every war when Newport was involved they destroyed the tower so the local people said hey this is the work of the devil we cannot have such a nice Tower so it's the Devil's Tower because he is doing all these things yeah and that's how uh we call it and in in in the in the dialect they started to cut the L like du but if you take a pigeon in our language it's MH and more pigeons it's D so a lot of people think it's the pigeons Tower no it's not the it's the devil Tower that's a good actually that I I like the name like this makes sense because you pick something local like I mean it's the same with me with vosa you know if it's really just the mount that I Grow Up near sopia you know um it's kind of and eventually what is strange with these names eventually it just becomes the name of your kenel it's not in your head it's no more Associated like you never think of it the way we just described it right that's true and what what is interesting also is that uh later on uh because you know I'm a collector everything I can see uh picture from Belgium shepherds or books or whatever I try to to buy them or or Bronze Statues whatever when I see something from Belgium Shepherd I will not let it go right because uh here in my office we have a little office for the fbb and there uh I have lots of books lots of books I have lots of statues I have paintings everything that we can get our hands on we buy it wow and by by searching like this I collected some cards some old pictures from Newport from The Devil's Tower and uh I had one card where I say hey this is just like a malinoa on the picture but it's very small but you can really see the type and I'm I'm 100% sure it's a Malino and then later on my father who

was uh doing always uh you know the genetics of people starting to fill in the the the family tree like we say and he collected the things and then he collected some pictures from my great grandfather with a malinoa and then I could find out that he was in in the Years 20 in 1920 1930 he was a member of the Newport dog Sport Club doing ring sport wow so that's that was for me a big surprise because me let's say nearly 100 years later I I see that my great grandfather had the same hobby as I had crazy yeah that's crazy for me that's also very really crazy I you know I mean if you have this kind of collection you should you should get some young kids to make like PDF files and then Reserve everything and maybe even have a section on the on the fmbb website or something about like I mean the history is very interesting and as far as I know you know like I was it in Bren or where was it there there was a little Exposition it was I think Johan Marie Van Buell exactly was in the H or in the H right in the H we did an exposition like that it was beautiful like for people that appreciate the breed it was very learning like like you really understand that uh Belgian Shepherds have just as much culture and history as any other breed you know yes um I I must say Jamari uh I had very very good contacts with him because we had same interests right about the history and everything uh and Jamar he died a couple years ago yeah but now his daughter is is still keeping on all the collections of things that he has and she still sells the books that he has and we will we will I I I already talked about it and we will try to put something on the our website uh to promote those things because they Al jar wrote very interesting books about history yes I think these are very I mean for anybody that starts or even even people that have been in with the breed for a while when you look around there is not much information or people don't know where to find the information yeah and and this can be very very because it's a it's a such an interesting story um how did it all start with the malice was it was it yeah I don't want to even mention names I I just want to hear how how did where how did you got stuck with the malice and the breeding and which dogs came to to like play the important role for you well uh like I said when I started with my llaw in the club in Le with Lucian who who teach me everything about the training how it was done at that moment because uh uh like I mention in the start I'm I have a University degree on How to Train people for different kind of sports the psychology is there yeah and so Lua he okay he trained me I was his Decoy

for quite a long time and uh at that moment he was competing with gai U uh who was three times Belgian champion in the different categories in the ring Sport and um in our club we had lot who was a veterinarian and she owned a dog from Depot J2 on a bber daughter and lot decided to do a meeting with gard muskai and uh I I was there with my M with my L andlaw and say yeah but maybe I take a I take a little Malino just for for fun and to train and you know and so I bought P from lot and [Music] uh P was the mother of stone yes exactly and and it was what elos and Peta elos PETA yes exactly and uh so uh with P we did few little competitions in sport uh but then she entered in my I started to breed with her yeah and uh at that moment I started to know luk very well because I met him quite a lot with with my l or when we go on ring Sport with Luan we went for training in dornik but I was always with Lua always I was always so L luk all yeah you you should to my club and no I'm very I have my but all my training let's say it's Lua who orientated me and Luke he orientated me in the breeding because when I had my female I said look I said yeah you should use elos so okay I used elos four times I did four times the same combination and then uh I started to become very very good friend with L because through Luke and Andre vle I started to work as freelance for Royal Canon where I had to visit the clubs and I remember those times yeah I remember those times and uh so when we went we looked to to an exposition we always shared the hotel room and we were always together and look he was really really really good friend and look he teach me everything he teached me all the the lines where to take care of what you could expect oh my God he he was so cool when uh like I remember the same stuff like I I would go to his place and and and it's just me and I my French is pretty much zero and we didn't have the phones to translate but then he would open the freaking big book and then we will start writing the pedigrees and explaining and it's like I remember this like it was yesterday it was very special times you know yes in fact you know I I um he made couple of breedings very recently and and I got one female from him um I don't know if he he he was in a hospital he had some very serious health problems just last year sometime but I think I don't know what happened I haven't checked in a while um well it's let's say it's now couple years it's from before Corona I didn't see look anymore mhm yeah so just before or just before or just after Corona we had still a nice meal together together with paa you know paa from Switzerland

yes yes yes who is always also breeding with on the depot L that's how I got Nikita she brought n she they sold Nikita to somebody in Switzerland I can't remember who was a high level competitor but they had didn't like her white feet oh okay and yeah and and that's how she came to me and I it was um I remember it was in Breen uh she was in heat and yeah that time I think berrant the Nikki and berr the jof arm they already had elos so she was in heat I was the last dog to compete um and right after I tried to make a breeding with elos and I was so excited for this breeding but it didn't take you know okay um so I I besides um yeah I had um what was the name of the the people um the the H hes shuk um breeders yeah Johnny missley yes yeah so that's kind of how I got a little bit of elos eventually and then from turos but much further back on turos um so going back to look and look is the the basically the Thea canel if you anybody that looks in their pedigrees if you're with the Malinois eventually one at least one of the dogs in your pedigree will go back to this oh yeah one okay at least right yeah yeah but for him it's a it's a very interesting story also because of of Bieber and Jito and then and then there was nelton and there was uh elos and tell tell me a little bit of these stories because it will be very interesting for everybody okay so look uh I I don't know in exactly what year he started to breed but uh when he started to breed he was breeding mostly on the lines of uh of flop H yeah with u what's no no no no kou is different that was the second wave of Luke breeding the first wave it was a the flop line with the the the famous French I'm bad in names I'm very bad in names me um uh um maybe will come yeah it will come so he started breeding that and he he was not so happy with that and so in the the early 80s then he started to be U to see some dogs in nvbk and he started to know Mark deelder and Mark deelder he owned jber and cou and uh then he started started to use these dogs and J and Biber they have the same father they are B out of kou but a different model where gv2 is then uh second time on the line of of arat who was behind kou and so he started on that and then he started to have his real real good and strong dogs and then the third wave was after he started to use elos right so that's with the three waves that I can say we've looked that we can uh that

we can see and that is very interesting how we did and he used other lines where he said hey youan stay away from that because you see this and this and this problems and I must say in all the years now we are nearly nearly 30 years after the 85 we are 25 so it's 40 years and those things that Luke told me and teach me about the Bloodlines I still can see that and people say yeah but that's not possible but the the traces uh sometimes the look of the dogs yes for sure you can say hey they go back on that they go back on that and if you see the look it goes also with the temperament and the character because everything is genetic yes and if you if you see the the let's say in the the in the 80s uh the French dogs they were quite small and they were all all let let's name it the Ludas was small dogs the males they were size of a very small female in the the bines so uh that is we can still see things that you say hey but this is typical French Line This is typical this line This is typical nvbk line out of the look The Look gives you already the information about the bloodline and if you know uh what characteristics the bloodline is giving you can have a a good probability that the puppies will be all like the father or like the mother but okay if you do some line reading you know what you do and you can know what you can expect if you do completely out crosses you know nothing you know nothing that's that's one of the big things in the breathing and everybody say yeah but in breathing and line breathing but without I tell you they ask me they show me pedigrees they say you what you think what can we get right it's throwing a DI in Las Vegas if if I see the pedigree I can see 25 different males with no connections say yeah it can be anything if you see let's say like luk bread with bber on on on gv2 or the other way around hey you know hey there's cartoons carto okay the probability that you will get something like this is of course much bigger and eventually you have to be careful how how thin how many times you go but but to some extent stand as you say you you can be almost certain that you know what's coming out yes but that is why also that also things that Luke teach me and then with the research that I did there were very very interesting articles written about inbreeding in the 50s by Mr verbank who was a real Belgium Shepherd guy who who had really high standard in uh how he could writes things about the Belgian Shepherds and Mr Bank was a very important guy in the history of Belgian Shepherds and now I hear everybody say yeah but in I only remember a black and white picture of him with a cigar or

something yes exactly exactly exactly he had he was from gent originally but uh look had a very in a way very simple recipe for breeding but he understand the types yes as you said like you you you you see the type of the dog and you kind of know what the temperament and what the the endurance and and Agility and everything you can kind of yes and then to keep the balance and not to lose it in your breeding program that's the skill of a breeder yes you because I know there is a lot of things said now lately about this inbreeding and uh I say inbreeding okay inbreeding that's father on his daughter or son with his mother or brother and sister that's in right all the rest is said line breeding if you take nieces or grandfathers or then you go on on line breeding but uh in the inbreeding really inbreeding it has been done quite a lot in the shepher in all history if we check on the start because the Belgium history the history of the Belgium Shepherd we have two important males that started the breed that was chop and wet those are the two most important dogs and chop and the wet if you see the pedigrees from that time wow never breed like they did but but the pool was small right yes and and you had the special dogs that you really wanted to yeah and after after after this uh start where it was a lot a lot in breeding I must say in whole history uh we can find back dogs that were important but that were issues of two three generations of really strong inbreeding and despite all the in breeding that has been done with the Belgium shepherds we can say we have quite a healthy breed yes and uh it's not because it's like that that you don't have you have to take care you have to know and understand what you do because the inbreeding if if people talk about say it's bad it's bad it's bad because it will accentuate the problems that the dogs have yes yeah but which stupid guy will do in breeding with dogs with problems that's what I that's my question yeah and and even even more today we have so much better understanding of like you can run Bunch ofet genetic tests and you can see a lot of health problems that maybe you okay well let's say there is I don't know epilepsy or skin allergy or whatever and then it gets like okay well do I really want to take a chance but when you today when you have all the opportunities to to do the health checks line breeding in breeding it becomes even more uh uh interesting because you can avoid a lot of the problems that we took bigger risk back then right [Music] MH yeah that's good because I I I can say with stoned I did some really in breedings I did three or four times I

made it Stone on one of his daughters but different daughters I must say yeah I got dogs wow hey I you could see you put them up and you and if you do a in breeding like that then you can see also the value of your male right because if you do n breeding a male on his daughter and the puppies are let's say [ __ ] well you put your mail at the garbage yes if if you have there the product that you say holy [ __ ] this is 100% the father's side that we see that is also the father of the mother well then you know that your dog will be uh of any interest in the breed because you will see the qualities of this do and that you can only verify in my knowledge by doing this in and uh when we did that with stone well we saw he was really uh giving what we wanted and uh like in Germany Stone he did only two matings in Germany but one of the matings was the L of Kasper fut more that our friend from F Moore help me CL said hey Yan I really want to do mating with stone with my female AA who was several times on the podium in igp yes because I I want to have a little bit more strong dogs and I I want to well if we see the lit of Kasper wow hey you check all the pictures and you put a picture of stones there are copies and there is no in breeding and then you see Casper what he br we have Fritz from brunck as Lun [ __ ] put a picture of Stone next to it it's Stone and now we start to see children of Fritz and we still see the same thing you know so there we can say this is a dog that is really tracing yes they're really giving his qualities because from the lit of Casper the first year they competed hey they were super super happy they were like wow now we have it but uh then I must say I saw the way they trained their dogs in Germany that's not the type of training that those dogs need because after one year out they were not out anymore they had disqualified they were disqualified for the biting because no more out because too strong yeah because too much used to the let's say a little bit easier dogs that have an out and that you have to to to support all the time where you support the ones that we had if you support too much tur I tell you I tell you story personal of whatever it was led to care it was when Kenny won the the fmbb the like three hours literally three hours before we go to the protection I'm like let's just he hasn't done any bite work in in few days he's going to lose his mind let's just give him a little just to warm him up can he out nothing can he and I mean I'm like right here I mean I'm looking at him out and he's like this I know and luckily thank God I decided to do this right before cuz

that's the type of dog we we discussing yes exactly and it's not in Panic it's not in it's just uh it's a Feelgood dominance it's a different you know you cannot like you try to really go against that the wrong way you no it's not going to work no no but that we had also is Stone then if you if I'm pretty sure if you could train those dogs with the techniques we have now from dog training wow would be very interesting oo I'm 100% sure J because I know that when Mario trained his ston uh he was really nice he was I would say nearly same as he did with Yus he had an obedience very nice yes yes till one day till one day that Mario said now I think he didn't had enough attention for me and maybe he was a little bit nervous Mario so he well we always tried to get more points and then you take a chance and he say now you will up I will force you to do and since then his obedience was over since then he was yeah he was doing obedience but not so intense not so attentive anymore as he did before and I know that from elos they said the same thing when people said yeah but we don't like elos because he's so slow in obedience is this he that yeah but for those dogs that's the type of training if you do the motivation type of training with those dogs yes wow then you have a I I still have I still have videos of turos after he come and I just but there was no pressure so I was just playing with obedience with him and he just just opened up and and just loved that you know just love that tell me uh um something because uh from kind of when we talk on emails and stuff uh you you go to some of the like Dubai and uh bakran and Abu Dhabi and you said that you do some lectures on on the breed and stuff what do you what give me something this is interesting what you what what you do well uh I've done a few uh when people ask me uh then I give like a little uh little seminar I seminar maybe two three hours it depends on how many questions are coming yeah but I I make up a little PowerPoint with the history of the belan shepherd very cool and uh then I start from the start what what what are we looking for how can we achieve what we are looking for how did the Breeders do everything how were the combinations made and uh I I think I did it now two or three times and uh people loved it a lot very interesting like I I know I would be interested that's why I'm like what is he talking about I want to see but uh you know I I I need I need really you know how much time it took before I could accept or speech today uh but I I need time to make it a real professional PowerPoint and then then I can go everywhere now it's a a

PowerPoint made by myself like a real amateur because I'm not a computer guy that's why I'm telling you there is there are some young kids that are already interested in the breed that would love to help you if you if you make some some announcement you will have some really really brilliant young kids that will make incredible work with with this stuff you know uh just because they will be excited and because they they live in this age they know how to do this we we we're learning it's hard for us you know the the young ones are resilient with with how I mean even with the AI now and everything they're so good you know M um how like like the detection you know I mean thinking of back in early 90 90 and today where did it change it changed like quite a few times but what is different today you think with detection training than how it was back in the early times it's completely different it's completely different uh I must say I I um how should I say I I started in the Belgium rink in The Obedience club then Belgium ring Club where at that time in the 80s it was quite common training were done mostly by force uh we say and the dog do and he has no choice that was the way how it was trained uh but I must say with my my studies my university studies being the teacher trainer for people I said hey there should be other different ways how it can be done and so in 1992 uh I met a guy in the club of Mario with Julia and I met H Boler and H he was then busy already in Dog Sports with clicker training and he was talking con prior and this and he explained everything those were the times when it became uh interesting um yes and uh so I was really fun I I I I followed immediately some courses with them because I say yeah but this is this is more the way how I think things should be done because I work only with punishment that's not really in my style and also I have two children I never punished my children and I can say they are raised perfectly I'm super happy and we see now with the the last dogs that we do we always do it uh without any punishment I don't say that you never need punishment that's something else but but the problem is you talk 99% of the time about how you can train with Rewards or taking away a rewards and you talk 1% about giving or taking away a punishment it's the 1% that 99% of the people will uh keep in mind as most important so when I teach I never talk about the punishment and uh I will only talk about the punishment when it's really needed and when you do the things correctly it's very rare you need the

punishments that's my opinion now and when you need that it's less and it's meaningful yes exactly right exactly exactly and uh so when we started with that it was quite funny because I was invited in Finland to give a seminar uh with uh with tarmo antila who was breeding tance and the guy with a with a curly hair right the that's that's Ze yeah yeah okay that's Ze yeah yeah yeah he was there also but it was quite funny because uh tarmo was there who had a sister of later lat of turos and so now I must say I see quite a lot of turant with real good quality but if you see the the size of them and the type you can sayable yes and you you go back and you see uh they come a lot from NPA with NPA Origins now one of the latest one NPA I don't remember Holden is used quite a lot and I see a lot of T out of him but with the type of Holden and Holden is a I think a great grandson of Bishop also Jos malinoa son of stone and you see the type you see when I see them right away I know I go at this yes is that okay har gr was there and daro and we come in the classroom and I said hey I come but I don't come alone because uh now the way we train I have Julia who did the competitions with turos yes yes and uh and here the bolster they will come yeah yeah okay you on yeah because they they were expecting 40 or 50 people on the seminar so we go there in the first morning and it's here to take the word I said I'm here just to help and to I let here do because that's the way how we do it now and he started to explain everything about the clicker training and at noon it was a big group I say maybe 40 50 people and lot of women but all different kind of sports right were ladies doing doggy dance and Agility and was a group of uh of igp and at noon the whole group of igp Johan Johan we invited you not to have this [ __ ] we want to train like Mario is training with stone a very hard way said yeah but uh that we don't do anymore that's the things have changed That's History because now Mario is uh that was the moment that he was starting with Yus and he said no Mar now is training with yagos and we do the clicker train training so for a couple days they refused to follow the seminar don't they don't believe they they don't they did believe in it they said no this is for for circus dogs and this and that but at the end we could show some things that they started little by little coming back to Uso he followed because he came to train with us in Gent so uh but it was strange and then we see later on how everything changed and more and more people started to train this way and okay so now coming back to the detection uh when I started with the

detection I said I met my friend Joseph who was in the Army and um in 2008 when we started the company with him uh I was involved in the company he asked me I was part of 40% in his company and uh the way of training that was done like they did in the French army was hiding the explosive but putting the explosive uh uh before the ball or the reward and they teach the dog to search the reward and they learned the association eventually the sense the association like you say now we don't do that anymore we are completely changed uh uh I must say have studied quite a lot about how we can train in the operant conditioning and that you know very well and uh by doing that W and you do it correctly it's rare we need to punish and like you already mentioned if you say then they say oh [ __ ] we did something wrong and they correct themselves because they so much uh they go so much for this uh reward that they want uh and they have to work to get the reward they don't have to find the reward that's very big thing right we say if you teach a puppy now for for an explosive well we start at eight weeks well when the puppy is 10 weeks I can show you little videos puppies of 10 weeks that is doing the job of an ad dog of of one year one and a half year old and they have a perfect indication and they thought of course they're not ready to work in reality they standing already they exactly they show they understand what they should do and they never had to search for the reward because the reward we give the food and we drop the food and it's incredible the results that we get with that so that's changed a lot but we see if I check here in Europe I don't speak nor countries Norway very they are very high level already huh and I had to some contacts with Runa feler who wrote books in the 90s about the rest method in Africa where for a a convention in Geneva where also Stuart Hillard wrote quite a a chapter about dog training right so they are really really strong in detection just like NPA in BOS but they coming Norway it's all the same thing yeah and uh but for the rest Europe I see a lot they still train like it was done in the 80s and the '90s and that's difficult that's difficult do you how how old when when do you like if you have it in a ideal situation when would you start to how how start we start at eight weeks when they when they're ready to go yeah and would you do what do you do like if it's if it's uh uh explosive like do you do pelo do you do cocktails like what what is your basic strategy I don't want to to give away any of the secrets but just curious but there are no secrets there are no secrets uh if if

if we start we start with an order normally we start with a neutral order so with a neutral order there I mean we make like a kind of oil by mixing some uh different things together uh that we know if he finds this this is something that you will never find in real life so but uh by using a neutral oil oil even if something goes wrong the dog will never associated with the order that he has to find later in his career if if you start okay you say we need a drug detection dog we start to to search on heroin or we start to search on TNT and something goes wrong in the training you have never to be afraid that later in his career when he finds this TNT or this heroin or or cocaine he he will never think about uh Hey I was punished yeah the backlash of of exactly yeah but I say punished not even punished because something can go wrong that when he's searching something is falling and even even some level of confusion that it wasn't resolved in their head right exactly so and then uh when we see he starts to recognize the order we we make it immediately every time every three times after three two three rewards we make it more difficult we make it more difficult we make it more difficult and that's the thing that I see in in the training that people don't do enough we explain something we say hey you should train that and we say for example uh you know we put we train the dog for example to go on on a spot on the ground on a little wooden PL about it h we do that so we say people we show and then you do it for a week but for a week they we do on the moment the dog put one feet on the on on the on the object they are happy and they reward yeah and then they come after one week and we say hey but he's not sitting on no but we rewarded only on putting yeah but if you put only this now it will be difficult because you made it so strong for him but when he put his feet or one foot on the pl on on the object he will be rewarded if you do if he do three times and you stop rewarding he will say hey why I don't get my reward and he will look to go further on he will put his second one yes that's what in animal I mean in Psychology that's the extinction burst of and that's exactly how it works exactly and I must say I I did this demonstration one day in the in the in the 90s and I had a puppy I trained him already on sitting next to me or or sitting in front of me uh reward him with click he knew the clicker let's say like that and he was sitting and I'm in the club and we are discussing about they say yeah but Johan your Technique it takes much too long and this and that and it's no no and if we do sit we push

him on the ground and he's sitting immediately and we see in two seconds he's sitting yeah but he don't know exactly yeah but we see and from you it takes 10 minutes before he h the first time but they don't understand that the second time mine is exactly exactly allow do to think instead of just yeah yes and uh I see now like the type of dogs that we pre they so [ __ ] intelligent if you do something three times and you don't make it more difficult they lose interest they don't want to work anymore that's very true and and that is difficult that is difficult in the training we have much more problems to train that Handler just to keep that momentum so so the dog has enthusiasm to keep keep him involved instead of reaching this level oh I know this is and eventually it becomes disinteresting and now you have to try to create motivation and that should not be happening to begin with right no exactly tell me with the this is the uh in detection the ongoing question question always do you after indication do you throw something at the resource or do you release and the dog goes back it depends it depends okay it depends on what we work okay because uh in the start we we uh we don't we don't even use the clicker when we start because when we teach him the clicker first of all but when we start on that we throw the food and we throw the food we we start searching on the on the wall or whatever and when we throw uh for me by throwing and the tick that gives my piece of food against the wall is in a matter of fact replacing by a clicker true the the sound the dog here oh it's there and then he gets away from uh his indication if we use the clicker we see the dog goes too much click and we check we say hey I will get it and now the noise is there and the food is also immediately there and you know take I can take that's the thing that we use uh so that means you probably use like a like a kibble like the dog food or something hard yeah we use we use dog food we use can or whatever the hard things that they eat yeah that's and I can say we have very very very very good results with it do you do you have any preference male or female do you find any interesting differences or no um I don't have really a preference uh because we've both we see we have good results yeah I I I would be the same way but knowing the just the military and police industry a lot of times the you know the now it has to be a male you know like it's a it's a thing and there is there shouldn't be a difference because especially for detection I mean if we're talking some protection work sure some females just don't have that power but for detection

there shouldn't be any concern of of male or female right um I I always say I prefer a good female than a bad male right speaking of females let's go back to breeding again because uh you know like again way back in I mean when I was in Bulgarian we were you know I started with the whole Russian style military training and um and the selection was very interesting then when I was in Belgium and started to hang out with look a little bit more and and few other people something very interesting happened that changed my mind that um you know if female has really she can do really good protection of course it's very good but for breeding purposes it's not like a un necessary thing it's more important that it's a mother and that carries the genetics than her herself have the that strong protection like elos or something yeah yes but we we see it also in the breeding in the history of the breeding uh most of the female uh that were used for breeding they were never trained just very good good character dogs but they they because most of the time they breed I talk about good breeders like look uh when he was taking female female for breathing they did maybe some biting and something but they were not really trained right know and uh they kept them at home and they that's how it was now we see that more and more people start to to compete also but uh it's it's not the training and the result of the training that will have a decision on the genetics right and people say hey we will uh we will breed with the world champion is he the best dog and he's a good dog that's for sure but he's the best dog for breathing he's lucky he has a very very good trainer very true and uh and and some dogs even uh dogs that never came to championships that were extremely good for breeding but people say no hey why you use that he was never in competition no but uh I had an example had a dog he had three four handlers and nobody could handle him right and I use him for breeding say hey why you him because he's he's a super dog people sometimes people look too much to the results well because when you when you don't have the experience that like you and I have for just understanding then you start to rely on competitions and who is the champion today and um very yeah it's a very common thing for for somebody that starts to do breeding is the relying on championship scores to make a decision which dog is good and which dog is not and it's such a illusion yes yeah because you see it also in horse breeding if you see in horse breeding and jumping uh yeah the the fs that are sold best that are the ones from where the mother is jumping 160 and were

jumping 160 right yeah we'll get to the horses in a moment I'm very curious about this because this is a whole different direction you're taking off in tell uh um I want to go to how what's happening with Belgian ring right now how is is a is it still maintaining some popularity and interest is it like where what's happening in Belgium with the do with the Belgian ring specifically um I mean is it the old guys or are there any new kids that are showing interest uh I must say uh it's a problem yeah for me it's a problem because uh we see that the number of dog sporters in ring sport it's going down and it's going going fast down like if we see that last year on the nvbk championships for the three championships together they had 30 dogs W it's nothing wow when when when we say when we say 20 years ago you had the three categories in every category you had 20 dogs and you had to fight to get in the championship SP yes now there's not one Championship that is full and also in the Belgium ring cental bear it's bit now the Cent bear has taken a little bit again a little bit up than maybe 10 years ago because then it was very bad also but the the problem the problem for me is that they don't want to adapt their methods they they the way how they are training and I am very very sorry to say but they are killing for sports by training all still the same way as they did 20 years ago and they don't want to change and the results is now with the Animal Welfare when they come on on that it's a big problem and I I I I I'm talking about that already very long because also when I was in this doing this seminar in the late 90s in Finland he said yeah but the way you want us to train the way way how Mario trained with stones if we keep on going that the government will make laws and they will supreme or support what is already happening in some noric countries but you would think that let's say some young kid starts to train and trains more in a intelligent way and become successful success always leaves these clues of well how did that happen and then they start to people would start paying attention um do you think the the the phon start to have a a like everybody's like on social media and nobody really spends time outside play with dogs and have fun with dogs like the younger generation that's where I'm like I know like let's say igp and not just igp but even Ming in Eastern Europe seems to be and in the states I have to say also there are there are young people that are interested yes um but how do we get young people interested I must say I I I must say I'm

quite surprised because the young people uh I think they have an intention to be interested in docks and Dog Sports because uh every year now we go to schools because we want to recruit uh security agents right for our company and uh like my company name is K9 detection uh we give a little demonstration and we see that these young kids from let's say 18 19 20 years old uh we have the most success with the demonstrations that we do and the way how we talk about the security and the security we do with the dogs because the security that we do with the dogs like uh searching for explosives on the on the airports or searching like we do in Ze in the harbor searching the the illegal migrants that want to go to England that we search in the trucks and where we find nearly every day people so that is very reward and very it's fun working like that yeah and we see that these young kids they are really interested the only thing what we don't have is enough people that can give quality training teachers yes that's what we miss and it's there in my opinion that we lose quite a lot of young kids if they go to ring Sport and uh uh it's one of my generation that will teach the young kids uh and he's teaching the kid the way how they were training 30 40 years ago the kids lose interest M it's normal yeah yeah no I mean when when even when you and I think about certain things that how training was done back then and you don't know better but somehow you know that that's not right you just don't know any better way now we know better way you know yes exactly um and and it's difficult because if you want to convince people to go to this way of training they they they laugh with you they laugh your way and if you show them then they turn their back and they don't want to talk to you anymore right yeah this is the the dog world yes that is the dog world we it's a such a big shitty problem like we we have to we cannot agree on everything we have to have disagreements but we have to be able to get back after disagreement you know instead of being this forever wors um it's just not good for anybody but I will say I I need to go now I get it I get it this was already very beautiful conversation my friend I'm I'm super super happy I wanted to we can go on not not tomorrow or the weekend but next week we can go on sure we can do part two I think it will be interesting for people these are very interesting conversations you no because you hear that I really am very enthusiastic about talking but I this weekend I have a monitoring competition and I need to go to the club of valer to pick up my things tonight very cool and I need I

need to go yeah I wanted to talk to you so we need to talk about what I want to do when we do part two I really want to talk about muring a little bit more in depth as far as where the direction of M rink is going and the rules and everything and and and also fmbb of course and and things like that but but this was super cool super cool so I very much appreciate it and um I enjoy it talk again my friend yeah okay and he I have my friend Phillip he asked also to have a podcast with you let just send me send me absolutely okay absolutely I and it it's also guy from the mouring and uh he was uh his Belgium guy uh he lived in Portugal for quite some years maybe 10 12 years because he was married there there he did to dog sport he was world champion muring for Portugal but now he moved back to Belgium and he came to work for me and when he heard I was talking to please ask I want to have aast absolutely absolutely thought scenes hey let me know let me know when we can go on absolutely thank you so much man okay and then I take care that I keep the whole evening free yeah no problem we we I'm the same way perfect Johan thank you [Music]