에피소드 45: Mia Skogster

And my dog was like really less prepared for this kind of thing because I have been struggling with his emotional state, especially in the motion exercises. So I have been forced to reward him a lot from healing parts. And that was now showing I maybe should have taken the risk, you know, that the tail goes a little bit down or something. Right, right, right, right. Like a little bit anticipating. The chess game of the sport, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But this was, of course, a mistake that would be easy to fix, I would say, within a few months. But he got 93. Nice. Yeah. And another mistake was that when I came to pick him up from the long down, he stood up to sit without my comment. He was anticipating that as well. Yeah. So little issues like that. But generally, it was, I think, a complete nice performance. We didn't completely, you know, lose it or something. And in tracking, we were a little bit unlucky because every dog who was tracking, it was like beautiful fields, track valid perfectly. But this happens always in IGP sport that there was a horrible, how do you call it, like a rainstorm or something like this on the day when I was tracking. I said that. And exactly on this day, the points in the tracking field were like from 12 points and the maximum point was 89. And we were also like, there were like lots of water in my track and it was kind of uneven ground. So my dog had made some checks and had some difficulties in the corners. So he got 84. And then the second day, the dogs made like 98, 96, 95, 90. You know, like, like, like, like the points were like completely different because then it was a perfect weather. But this is like nobody can affect on that. I know. It's what happened. I know. I wish I wish there was some solution to the tracking problem with the weather and the conditions. But it's like it is. And like we, I always think it on this way that when we compete enough long, this will happen to all of us. And in the end, your scorebook will say and show what your dog, you know, was made of. Like you will have some not so good results perhaps. And then you will have if your dog is well trained or you can train him better and improve his behavior, you will make it one day. You will have also your lucky days. And then somebody else has the bad days. And so it's happening. So it's just one competition. But it's it's the sport. And I'm sure that if my dog would have been older and, you know, more experienced and perhaps better trained and everything.

I'm sure that if there would have been now some really old, really well trained dog, he would have done, you know, excellent also in those conditions. So it's it's and I can't say what if I would have been the second day, what would have been what would have been reached then? Who knows? It's just a guess. So so it's makes no reason to think about it. But however, so this and then I like we talked last time about this, what I'm going to do like after this competition, because I don't have so much fun and it has been so clear for me that I want to focus on my younger dog. So I decided then to I will look a new handler for him. And then I have been showing him in the Finnish special forces and they really loved him and they would like to buy him. So I have still some other options as well. If I would sell him to some private person and I have had a lot of guests, but I don't find a comfortable idea that people expect. I don't know how to say this, but some people expect that a really highly high level trained dog would be for sale with 5000 euro. I know. And it's not. It's not. And and I would never pay the food for two years. But you've spent. I mean, it's not. I mean, come on. It's like it's ridiculous. So I mean, yeah. So I would not sell him to somebody with this price and then find out that maybe they will sell him forward somewhere. You know, because. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. So I'm thinking that either, you know, I think this I think he would be the happiest when he would get really to this kind of. Real working dogs stuff kind of because then he definitely has it's in there. I mean, he can do just as you said, like I, you know, I told you before, like I like him just just in overall. I think he can just as you said, he could be really, really good for any kind of police or military type of work. But he's also a dog that's cool with people. It's not like, you know, so I. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he's like easy to handle. So he's he is like easy to handle. So he will adapt very quickly. He could be also a really perfect dog to somebody who wants to compete. But it's just not satisfying me, you know, but like what they are expecting me to show there. But yeah, you were not as patient with him or you just didn't click between the two of you. I think we just don't click that well. I think it's just this thing. And then also that I don't know, I don't know, like I'm pretty, pretty sure that a lot of things you could even improve his work a lot from what it is now. Both in obedience and both in tracking by just like changing a little bit the training style and the person who trains.

But also you can also go the other direction very quickly. So if you don't know what you are doing or you choose the wrong method. So, yeah. So either way. But that's the good thing that wherever he goes, you can for at least a little bit give some feedback and help to the people because you know who he is. Yeah. So that's even cool. But I think this could be a very, very strong option to be a military dog. And I also love the idea that it would be super interesting to see how an IGP trained dog will adapt to a canine work. And how quickly and what other, you know, like this would be interesting to see that as well as the perspective as a breeder and also, you know, the canine and sports. And so it could be nice to follow his path a little bit as well there. Yeah. Typically, there is almost no transition, not much of a transition. They just need that green light that it's actually really okay to do what they want to do. And then they are. I remember with Tarzan. I don't know if that was when you were here. Like I did. No, maybe it was before that. He was like a year and a half or somewhere in there. And I just had to, I mean, you know, training protection dogs and ring dogs. And so it's easy for me to do. But I just wanted to see who he is, you know. And I put him in a situation in the bushes. And he just went for a really just a crazy, just a body bite, you know, on a protection suit. Of course, he didn't know that that's a protection suit. But he got challenged and he responded that way. And that was really the only time I don't have any interest of doing anything more with him. It was just pure curiosity to see. But I think a lot of IGP dogs are, actually most of the IGP dogs, I would think, are very capable to be switched into serious work without much problem. Going back to making points, that can be a little hard. Exactly. I think so, too. Oh, yeah. The control especially, I think, is one of my things. Because a good dog is going to just like it too much, you know. It's like, what do you mean? Yeah, I mean, and I can really see it a lot. Because, obviously, I like to test my dogs. I'm always curious. I bring my dog to different surfaces, environments. And he has been fighting to the hidden sleeves and full suits. And without me, like, you know, in some industry hall, also together with me, I have sent him to different rooms to search the person who has been passively waiting. And people who have been attacking. And so, in a surprising moment. And so, it has been interesting to see. And he really loves it. So, I think it's also, I think, you know, when your dog has, like, that kind of talent.

And there is this certain type of aggression in them, which is like, I really, really hate this. And I'm happy to be talking about this now in this podcast. Because, you know, in Europe, they are, like, especially in situations like in Austria, for example. They are, like, talking about, oh, we just trained the dogs out of the prey drive. And it's just a fun game for the dog. It has nothing to do with aggression or aggressive dogs or something. And it's so crazy because all these dogs who are, like, who are good military dogs or who are bred for this purpose, you know, they must have also a strong aggression and the natural instincts to do that. And it doesn't make them antisocial or it doesn't make them, how to say? Unstable. Dangerous. Unstable. Yes. And dangerous. When we train them and let them use that aggression because it is there. But we can tell them that in this situation you can do that. But then we also train them to be super social, confident in other situations. And the more confident dogs we have, they don't have the need to show aggression in the wrong moments. That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a... I don't know what to even say about especially Austria and Switzerland. I feel bad for the... I don't know how they do it even. I mean, it's tough. But it's on them at the same time. Just as you say, like, I think the path of defending the sport and what we do. Yeah. With making it look like it's not what we do, but it's something else. I think it's the wrong idea. But who knows? Who knows? I guess we can get back to that at some point. I don't know how much if you want to talk about this or not. About the, you know, FMBB and the letter that you send, they send, whatever. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that whole thing of... Like, I can... I mean, I'm sure you could see the point of what the Van den Bosch had the letter of the... I didn't actually ever read it. I haven't read it. Can you make a shortcut? Yeah, yeah. What did he write? So, basically... I haven't had time for this, you know? Yeah. I'm focusing on other things. I think, like, in a nutshell, the important parts was, of course, organizations, you know, they can make mistakes and they want to adapt, but sometimes, you know, the ideas that they have are already well taught and there is a certain goal. Well, I think the... Probably the main thing was that it's inappropriate, I guess, to just go after somebody, a judge, that even if they judge right or wrong, but go after them on social media because then, from the judge's point of view, what are they supposed to do to defend themselves on social

media or, you know, and basically, I'm not sure what the suggestion was, but I... I'm speculating here, but I think it was, you know, like, not that these things shouldn't be addressed, but to follow the normal line to address those things instead of... And what is the normal line to address those things? Yeah. I mean, I would think... I would think... A letter to FNBB, like we did. A letter to FNBB, yeah. Yeah, something like that. To where they can start some internal process or something like that. But they never answered that. Never. Yeah. We had a lot of names from lots of different countries, a lot of top competitors, even judges who signed that letter. And we wished FNBB to talk about it, and we never got an answer back from them. And we sent the letter, like, directly after FNBB, and now we are in August. Yeah. And we only got an answer that they will discuss about our letter in their next board meeting. But after the next board meeting, we never got an answer back. But what was the letter like? What did you guys want to... Would you like me to read it here? It's up to you. I mean, I haven't seen that, so I don't know. So it was like basically this that we competitors, participants, and spectators of this FNBB World Championships 2024, we were writing to express our concerns about Edgar Circle's dual roles in this organization, not only as a board member, but also as a supervisor position during the championships. And during these recent championships, we felt that there was inaccurate scoring. So competitors didn't receive the scores that did reflect their performance accurately. Some were awarded lower scores. Some were awarded more than they deserved based on the factors like nationality or their status. And then misappropriate world champion title. And we felt that the Czech competitor performed better than the German competitor. But because of the judging, the champion title went to the German competitor. And also improper influence. We felt that he was also influencing tracking judges, resulting in unfair downgrading of competitors' performances so that he was giving the points instead of the tracking judge himself. And then he was also communicating with the final judges in the protection phase before scores were finalized, compromising the impartiality of the judging process. And we felt that this is not like aligning to the transparency and fairness, what should be, you know, upheld by FNBB. And we were basically urging or asking that his position in the board member, both in DMC and also in FNBB, should be considered again. And then we were also saying that we should think,

because a lot of competitors are so disappointed at the moment, that we are thinking of other existing competitions. Where should we go? Should we go to Sussit in the future and stop completely competing in FNBB if FNBB is continuing on this way? And a lot of, because it was really collective disappointment. I was there. I saw the audience reactions. And it was, it was feeling so bad. And so we had like competitors from Brazil, Canada, Czech, Denmark, Finland. Actually, the whole team of Finland, for example, scientists, including the leader, France, Hungary, you know, Sweden, like, you know, there were lots of nationalities who wrote their names there. But, yeah, that was pretty much what it was, because we feel that in FNBB, it's pretty much Edgar who chooses the judges and even in the IGP commission. So if the selection is done by the way that, to whom he can influence or something, I don't know, it's just like, whatever. But we don't want to see this kind of competition anymore, basically, where Germans take care that Germans will win. I'm very direct. So I don't know. No, no, no. I think it's okay. I don't have to be any mean, you know, I don't have to be in the board anymore or commissions anymore or anywhere anymore. And I don't wish to be there anymore. And I don't even have to go to those competitions where those people are judging me. So if this is going to be, if this podcast, what I'm saying here, is like causing the problem that the next time I show my face and my dog in the World Championships and the judges will say, oh, we will take a little bit more points from you because you have been that bad person that you have been judging us publicly in the social media, then feel free. Yeah. Because what can I, I mean, it makes no sense anymore. I mean, it was so, so obvious. Like, if you give them 90 points protection, 96, come on, we are not blind. If the same dog would have been shown by Finnish woman handler, never shown a dog in the competitions, she would never, ever get more than low very good because the dog was dominant in the guarding phases and the dog had like so many issues, stuff like that, you know? And it's like, it's like a joke. Yeah. Yeah. I don't say that, you know, the other people got what they earned, but then if there are some people who they upgrade, then this has been happening so many years. I mean, we, we, we know this kind of, but it's what it is. I don't know. It is. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead. I mean, you go, go. And what I want to say that it's not the fault of the competitor. He takes what he's, what they give to him. I don't say this, but, but, you know,

and another thing, what I also don't like is this, that we have like two supervisors who change each other, who choose each other from one competition to another one. And then like nobody else would be the supervisor in the whole world. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because supervisor also has a lot of affection. I really, really hope that next year there will be another supervisor. Yeah. Somebody else. Yeah. That is the reason 10 years in a row. Yeah. Man, that's a, and I, you know how. How many points do you want to lose? No, you know how I was talking. No, I don't care. I mean everybody knows that I, I speak my mind and, and whatever. Yeah. And, and everybody knows me and Eric, me and Edgar have a very long history of, I mean we started at the world, you know, from the first to whatever he was competing. Yeah. And, and, and we've been friends, we've been really, really real enemies. We've been back and forth, like I'm, I'm, I don't have a, you know, I don't have anything at stake to, you know, against him or, or in favor of him because, I don't know, tough one because, um. You were not there this year. I'm not there. There were no videos. And, and probably, like, you know, when, when I, I'll tell you, I don't know what year that was. Sometimes a long time ago with Kenny. Um, and, and it was a, we got a really, really, really rough trucking. Like I remember, um, it, it was Slovenia. And it was up in the mountains to where the first truck starts in a little valley with the, just amazing, just amazing grass. And they kept progressively going higher and higher in the mountain to the point that my truck was, literally on the peak of the mountain where you have the, the satellite there to where. Yeah. And we're going down. And there is not even grass because it's just so high. So there is like patches of grass and, and basically a rock. And my dog makes the truck, but of course he cannot make the points that, uh, Knut Fuchs makes on the, on the nice plushy grass. And so it upset me. And I filed a complaint. And it's like, well, you're going to have to pay a hundred or 200 euros or whatever it was. And it wouldn't matter. Nobody will, whatever. I'm like, it, it doesn't matter. I will file the complaint because that's shitty. It just, it was upsetting. You cannot do that to, to, you know, like you have to take under consideration that we all put the same type of work just as, you know, you know what I'm talking about. So that's what I did. I made a formal complaint. I've been in a sport long enough. I understand, as you said, sometimes the conditions of tracking change.

But from, from having this nice plush, just like a, like a Zen garden type of grass down on the bottom. And me tracking by the satellite on the rocks, literally going downhill like this, which I still have videos of. Uh, um, it, it just not compatible whatsoever. And you cannot say that's the luck of the draw. Cause if you say that, that's, that's just shitty. So they tried to convince me, well, you're gonna, you're gonna, the way to do it is, you know, you have to file a, uh, um, complain and, and put the money in and so on. And, but ultimately it wouldn't matter because it is what it is kind of thing. And that, that made me even more mad. It was an FCI competition. It was an FMBB. I, I filed a complaint. I sat down with, I don't know who was, I can't remember. I think it was the tracking judge, the organizers and, uh, uh, France Jansen at the time was the press, you know, like the guys. And I'm like, listen, uh, I know the outcome of this is, you know, nothing, nothing's gonna change. But I, I just want you to know that I'm not blind and, and that, that's just shitty. Thank you very much. You know, I mean, I said it respectfully. It wasn't, you know, as respectful. That's rough. As I could be in that situation, right? Yes. And then the next year, and that was the year that I won, that you got third. And then, I had the whole working dog commission on my truck talking about pressure. Um, they're like, well, when is your truck, whatever. And all of a sudden, I, I, I see like everybody on my truck. So, uh, you know, even you think it does another, but it actually mattered because they were there. Um, and I think, I think the formal complaints are the very first thing that needs to happen, basically. That, that's my opinion. And then, I would want an explanation. We kind of talked about this a little bit on, on the first podcast. We had the one, you know. I, I think, um, a judge has to be able to have opportunity to, to justify their points. And it's like, okay, well, this is what happened. These are the points, and this is the points. And, and then that's looked through whatever the judges committee and the super, and so on. And so on. Uh, because. Uh, because. As we said, we, we. Cannot get. Influence by. Who the crowd on a stadium things should be the champion. In any sport. Nothing against somebody favoring somebody. I mean. Um, and, and, and this particular situation, that's, that's like a, like I can talk about Edgar just cause, you know, I, again, I mean, I can have him on a podcast. We can have a, uh, conversations. But. We've had a. A very, very, very rocky history. And, and it's there to stay.

To where, like, I mean, you know me and Yanni are really good friends. Uh, um. Um, I also, um, respect Oli very much. Um, you know. So, so. Uh, like I cannot take sides on this. And especially that I have not been there and not seeing anything. But, but I would think that the right step is not to, for sure, not to count on what the crowd likes. I mean, you take any soccer game, depending where they are playing, the other, their team is getting fucked if they lose. No matter if it's right or wrong. Right? I mean. Right. Oh, yes. It's always like that. That's just, that's just us humans. They have their favorite. Of course. I think, I think the, for me, the problem, for me, the problem is this, that it seems to be that, um, when somebody's favorite, I talk about the supervisors and judges, like, like last year, uh, in, uh, how to say, uh, in Romania, there clearly wasn't any German competitor that was so important to any of the judges. So it was okay. But then it seemed to be that now there were some favorites who needed to win or it felt like this. And, and, and, and one thing in this sport is so difficult to say because how we say, what is the very good performance? And what is the excellent performance? And what is the dominant dog in the guarding phases? Mm-hmm. What is the dominant barking? What is the intensive and the, and the power that the dog puts to his work? And, and, and because this is like, uh, I would call it like, it's the same, like figure skating. What I so much love in our sports. And I also so much hate in our sport. It's the same thing. And it is that, um, it's like the beauty, what like the dog's emotions, what we can interpret. Mm-hmm. But the problem really there is that we can see it completely differently or we can decide to see it differently. We can always say that I didn't see that dominance or I saw the dog was very dominant in his guarding, whether he was or whether he wasn't. And nobody can say and prove and, and argue that he isn't if the judge is designed so, you know? So, um, they can be exactly like two similar performances. The other dog gets 92. The other dog gets 96. Just because you say, oh, but the dog was perfect in barking. The dog was excellent in every guarding phase. And in the other way we can say, oh, this dog wasn't. So it's like something completely not arguable. And, and, and that is something crazy kind of in this sport that nobody can prove something like was he or wasn't he, you know? Right. And then it always, you know. Unless you see something from the stands or from a video that it's very obvious.

Otherwise, um, to critique a dog if it's dominant or no, and not being in close proximity to, to actually feel the dog there. And that's, I think, where the judge and the decoys have the advantage of, of, you know, you know, and, and to some extent we have to trust them that they will do the right thing to judge and, and decide if the dog is dominant or not. Yeah. And, and, and I, um, I have seen a world champion dog who got. Who were the people in the, who were the judges? What judges do you remember in the protection phase in the final? Uh. Anyway, but I don't think any of them are like, like I just don't think that those judges are like puppets, like easily influenced and pressured by, by anybody of what to do. But that's my opinion. I don't know. Like I, like I wouldn't ever think that Edgar Churchill will have any influence on, uh, uh, Harry Arch on how to judge. Like I, I just can't see that. I think he has a good idea of what he likes. I also think the same for, uh, uh, David Garcia Suarez. Regardless if we like what he judge or no, I think he has a, he has a very good idea what he judges as far as, uh, like you can see it in, in every trial that he's judge. It's just how he judges. So I don't, like I don't think, well, what I'm saying is I don't think that Edgar, Edgar had that big of a influence on manipulating the trial. Um, simply because of, of who the judges were. They were too, I mean, if we're talking about the two performances, they were in every way, two very different approaches, different styles of training, different styles of performance. And they both had their mistakes on different areas. In obedience, yes. But I think in protection. Hmm. He, he made in protection. I mean, Yanni, Yanni made, uh, um, I can't remember the scores. I'm so bad with this. 96. Yeah. He had a better protection. No, they got the same points. Okay. And I think the obedience, both of them had like different mistakes. And I could live with the points, but both of them got, because I think that they were just different mistakes. And understandable that both, you know, get kind of, you know, something, I don't remember 89, you know, something like this. Uh, for me, the biggest issue was the protection. Yeah. That with completely different performances, both scored 96 and in protection, we cannot much explain. I, I, you know, how we were talking about the guarding and, and being prepared to liking, I, I, I'm gonna get in trouble and that's fine. It's interesting conversation.

Like, um, I think, um, already from the first part of the competition, not the finals, the, the championship, they started to make it clear. They started to, you know, they, they weren't killing for it, but the judge was making a point that the guarding is not, I don't know, direct or whatever. When they, when they shift, you know how we were talking, um, the first podcast about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one way to look at it. And I, I, you know, like I, I've, I talk with so many people about this and I talk with people that agree with me. And people that disagree with me and people that disagree with me and that's what's interesting. I think we all need to see each other's points on this. And one good way of looking at the helper. You, like you would look at the helper as helper with a sleeve as, as one piece, one, one thing. It's not like, okay, well, he has a sleeve, but the sleeve does another, but then there is a helper and then there is some barking at you. And then I'm, it's like, uh, ideally this is where like when, when you get to the finals and you see the two styles. And then, uh, one dog staying direct of, uh, uh, engaged in a fight and the other dog switching from a fight to, you know, mentally switching to, to do just bark and call to, for totally, definitely switching the mood and, and, and, and moving away from the sleeve. And then, um, once they start to emphasize on that, and then you have two dogs that the one does and the one does. Like I, I can see, I'm not saying who, which dog is the better dog. I'm not saying which training is the better training. I, what, what I'm trying to say is that I understand what the judges were wanting to see. And ideally it would have been a combination of the two dogs in obedience and in protection to where, uh, um, but let's stay in the protection for a little longer. I think the, the protection if, like, I would be really pissed if Yanni's dog was not shifting from one guard to a different guard. And I'm talking silent and active. I'm talking position and intention and, and mental preparation. I'm now fighting with you and now I'm switching to get a reward from a side. And I think, I am speculating, I have no idea. I don't think none of us know. But I'm speculating that that play, played a, a big factor of how the points got distributed. And I would like to know, like, I would like to, to, to know from the judges or the, the, the supervisors and, you know, it's like, break it down. Why, why, why was that like that?

Um, and maybe they have a legit reason and maybe they don't, but that, I don't know, that would have been probably the, the better way to go about this. I would like to know, um, I would like to ask from the judges, how can you reward a dog with excellent? The judge, who is not even ready, who is not clearly guarding so intensively, so dominantly. I mean, they, this has been always, always mentioned. In every FMBB judge meetings by Edgar himself, the judges, we want to see a dog that when the helper attacks, who goes for it, like who goes to wars, who is like ready for the fight, and who is guarding that intensively, that you can see the power in the re attacks. and now we didn't see that we didn't see the grip we didn't see the power there and we didn't see that kind of like dog who is like eating the sleeve and so for me this is like i would like to really emphasize that where how it's possible where were those emotions where was that intensive dog what is like that we know that the excellent should go only for those who internally have that i don't know whether it was for training that was missing or whether it's in the dog i don't i don't take part of that the judge can only judge what he sees but where and how they got the dog suddenly doing that excellent when it wasn't visible i mean even even from the audience we can see it even from far distance we can see that the dog wasn't ready to re-attack and it could be visible in the grips and in the attacks and during the bite phase and everywhere in the in the sound of the not even sound but the body position of the guarding and everything like the expression that clearly that protection i i just don't get it in my face or eyes or so that it could be anyhow excellent and surely they must know it themselves i i i'm thinking whether it comes for this that they know the dog from the training or whether it's because he's a judge and they are all charges and judges like each other's and they are thinking that he's going to judge me in the next competition so i'm going to give him more points so he's going to judge me nicely that's what people were talking so i'm not really super honest that's what people were talking there that because you are a judge and the judges are judging the judges that they have tend to give more higher points or something like that it's like a kind of good brother association so welcome to a judge yourself and then you can get also better points or i don't know but i'm just saying they can they can shoot me for this reason i'm saying what all the competitors

competitors were talking right maybe minority not but even even the german competitors and that's already pretty much said yeah even they felt embarrassed i am trying to like you know as i'm listening to i'm trying to get to the like i i actually want to see um the performance the routine because it's i i take the i don't know why but i i video i recorded it and i posted it on my facebook so i have it and um i i don't want to start talking again without without without uh um refreshing the memory yeah because like i i send me the link yeah i did not see what you're what you're saying and even like the back transport the dock is so without power that it doesn't have to even be under control because it's just kind of like daily walk yeah and and if the dog really wants to attack you know you know it's not easy to keep the truck then in like next to you it's not easy for the dog to walk there but if the rock is a little bit out of the leg and he's like a daily walk a little bit so it was like i don't know so for me it was i don't know it's not really bad but it was like for us it was really like a clearly low very good and for me there is a big difference between excellent work and low very good work yeah and i think this is where we need to like this is where we the the best way to deal with that is to explain it to have to have say well they should say don't i would love to say hey mia look this here this is excellent don't you see this is excellent guarding what the dog is doing this is an excellent transport this is an excellent re-attack don't you see the power what the dog puts in when he re-attacks and i will be like okay maybe i have to take my own glasses away those pink ones or something that are blurred and watch it once again that i can really understand that this is the excellent so maybe then i can change my opinion about it yeah i think i really need some kind of refreshing like that yeah i think um um no but i mean i i don't think that's a bad thing to i think it's totally fine to disagree with points um but but i'm i'm going i'm searching to find that video so we play it so i i here is another take before i i found the video now and we'll watch it in a second but let me just see you here so there is another thing i think we're in a very interesting moment in the sport where like that there is two different pictures of of what the the preferred picture that we want to see is and a lot of trainers like one and a lot of judges also like one but different group of trainers and judges prefer the other one

and they see dogs differently well interpret their emotions differently they see dogs differently because they're not they are or not taking certain things that the other ones are taking under consideration and vice versa so so to say that well even judges and top competitors like or don't like something uh i take it as well they prefer a certain different style and different judging and the other ones prefer something else um but uh let me see how i play this now feel like the blinds are super wide yeah they're quite wide maybe could be a little tighter could look a little bit more inside but he looks inside he looks inside i saw him but they're wide now yeah so he comes in the blind and immediately starts barking and it's very direct in front of the guy and when i look at the body language his years are forward he he has a very much forward body language with the barking so i in in in my opinion i it's very hard to say that that's not dominant to me so for me this is like like um how to say he's uh having breaks between barking he could be more aggressive more um like um putting more pressure with his bark towards the helper um they are like how to say for me it's more like a prey i don't know how to say it but uh like a kind of uh actively taught behavior but the emotions but i would like to see more like like i i would go for you know like very good yeah but yeah let's go forward let's go forward i would like to see the whole barking like when the handler comes there and how it continues the barking but i would like to see a more fire in the guarding but i don't have that feeling that oh maybe the dog starts to get a little bit you know right of course barking is just one thing so we have to always look the whole whole picture of the dog like the whole performance and put all those faces together so we can see like the barking we kind of i mean i guess we want to also make sure that it's not just barking but what the intentions are so here is yeah also for me uh i would say also uh the same is i think also with this dog that um i think the worst part of this dog's protection in my opinion is the barking like like he could be a little more um right right right but energetic and active there so so they're like this is also for me that i think um yeah let's play them yeah also starts immediately yeah oh sorry it starts immediately but the intentions are very different and this is again like if if we if we

say that the the first dog is not dominant then this dog we we we have to say it's like not um he's not going with the purpose that you want him to go in there he's going with very different intentions in the blind and and this is where i think we need to decide is that okay or is it not okay i'm not so sure i would say that both of these dogs are waiting for their bite no he's not waiting for a bite come on he he's in a wrong place to be waiting for a bite right now if the helper just goes and attacks he he will bite them well we we don't know but i will i will say that he will bite because i know the dog i know the dog is a is i mean it's incredibly strong confident dog but i am not arguing if the dog is or isn't confident by what his genetics are the argument really is that this dog here is asking for a toy and the other dog is asking for the sleeve as a toy the other dog is not asking for the slip that's where we would argue you know and that's kind of where we need to leave the judge to probably say which one can you show the whole guarding face of yeah yeah yeah like how does it end and um you know when the dog comes to fools and yeah is um getting lower in drive when the handler comes or staying as active and dominant the whole parking or uh then the second i don't like also the dog is like changing his position like back and forth yeah thinking yeah do i get reward oh i didn't get reward okay i have to continue but i will tell you yeah yeah so yeah i i mean the dog should be so that you know like what i would like to see is a continuous barking where the rock is not all the time thinking is the handler coming absolutely the helper now rewarding me that's just keep on focusing on the guarding without thinking anything and in my opinion this dog body language tells that he is thinking about something exactly he he absolutely i agree with you in ideal picture he should have more uh rhythmic guard barking in the garden stay in the position but and where we disagree is yeah the reasons why he doesn't have continuous barking you're thinking that he's waiting for reward or something and i am or handler and what i'm seeing is he wants to bite

he's like he's like ready any moment he's like that barking i just want to take you which which when the dog thinks that way a lot of times can disturb the barking and it's that anticipation of like i i don't i i know i'm barking but i want to bite you so i see it actually in a in a totally different light but these are yours and my interpretation and yeah somehow we have to trust the churches what they are saying and how they critique it and that's why um but let's play it one more time and see if you can see it the way i'm seeing but one thing also i think is yeah i can tell it so the changing of switching positions and stuff i think this is just him being ready to bite and wanting really badly to bite that's how i see this and it's not like it can be way better the barking can be of course way way way way better and just the fact that the one dog is in the mood of i'm gonna bite you and the other one is in the mood of is it time to get my toy that's what i think uh we need to and and when i'm saying we that even that's a very tricky you know how i was in the first podcast i was talking well we should have a uh commission of trainers also to be part of uh um what the rules and how changes and and then i'm thinking man but how many competitors really understand how many competitors are taking times to even understand where we are going with it and so bottom line with that guarding is like what do we you know what's the problem you want to do you want to do you want to reward you to do you want to work maybe i i wouldn't i wouldn't give i would say either one of them made an excellent guarding in this and uh but the other one was more continuous in his barking and the other one was less continuous in the barking so uh i think what i like to say one thing about your your um when you said that you interpret it on that way but i think that judgey shouldn't interpret anything because we have some rules so we want to see a dog the only one who can get excellent is showing okay it has to start immediately the barking it should be like like like you know powerful effective you know like that he really guard self-confident keep the position all the time and not thinking about anything else than guarding in the moment so if the dog is thinking about whatever he's thinking about because now enough us can know what they are thinking about i see it as as a mistake as well if the rock is thinking about biting because this is a guarding exercise now hold and bark and then and there the dog should think

nothing else but just barking and that i'm barking here that's my mission and when i'm calling out i come so i see it on this way and i think that when the judges are starting to interpret these kind of things would the dog bite would he not bite if the helper attacks so if the dog is we know it's a competition it's a it's a let's say um this is an igp trial we know there will never be a bite in the car in the blind so if the helper would attack and the rock would be here you know it could be that my dog probably for example he would bite to the chest and of course he would be disqualified but i know the rules that the judge is never a helper will never attack here so and it wasn't mentioned in the rules that which position the dog should be barking should he bark more here or there or something i think more the emotions matter but uh you know that the dog is more intensive more you know really like looking to the face of the helper saying like you know you move i bite you but yeah it's it's it's a bit different thing but i i don't like so much this idea either that judge is not the thing that oh he's just this because he wants to bite or he's prepared but then we have another handler who comes there and shows exactly the same and then in that talk they say oh your dog was just expecting the bite so we give you just very good or something you know my point so this is what i exactly hate a little bit in igp that we can always this start decide that if we like some person or somebody's talk or we know the dog otherwise we say oh this dog would put this yeah it's a little bit complicated so to me the guarding in the blind is a is a dog that's ready to prevent the attack and you can say that you you will judge only the barking but um i hope that's not the case with the judges that it's not only about barking and it's about being ready to stop the helper and staying direct in the confrontation with the helper and not switching mood and we know there is no like there should be no argument that all the dogs that are staying in the right side they are doing it for a toy and they are not prepared to to uh um to prevent or they can be pretty but it could be then another you understand like it's not for the sleeve then it can be the real so to me this is yeah that that's the wishful thing that's another issue yeah that's the wishful thinking because again the only that's why i'm saying like the you know how i was saying like the the helper with his sleeve it's one unit it's one piece it's not

like there is a sleeve to bite and there is a helper to bark at it's like uh um you you can bite only on the arm and that's where you bite and you can even like go as far as saying a dog that's not staying directly ready to bite he is avoiding the sleeve i don't think we can sort this one out i think that's for the judges i personally like that the judges are starting to pay attention and and want to see those that are just really again i mean jani can change this in two sessions if he wanted to now and and me and him have had this conversation too and it's like well why should i change it when in the rules it says or it doesn't say when we talk about dogs that if they cannot be trained to and i'm not talking about the any dog but i'm talking just a dog that cannot make bark and hold they cannot teach them how to stay clean in the blind so they resort to something like this well if you resort to something like this then you have to yes you are making some success but you also have to pay some price for for not showing what in fact we want to see and then how we were talking about the breeding qualities of the dog like i if a dog is trained to bark for a toy i i i don't want to be confused i want to see that dog what what the dog has and some dogs can and some dogs cannot um as i say like clearly and again i'm speaking not just from watching videos i i know jani's dog like that's some other a few sessions and it can be very different but but when when we have in a competition one dog doing this and the other dog doing this um now they both have mistakes right it's just that the mistakes or the training styles are different and it comes down to what do we want to see and that's what i'm saying a lot of judges and a lot of competitors say this is totally okay uh not this one but the other one right and then other trainers and other judges say no we that that's not okay that's not what the sport's about i think this is the conversation that has to happen do we are we okay with it or are we not okay but this also changes like it's so interesting because in the like i remember maybe 10 years ago uh it came from germany that if the dog is parking in front of the sleeve then the dog is not barking the the helper you know the man so uh it's and taught the dogs to go on the other side no no no no no no no no no i see it a little bit on this way you know also that for me the position where the dog is parking whether he is in front of the the sleeve whether he is uh on the other side like on the sleeveless side parking for me it hasn't been

a big matter i always look more the emotions of the dog and also how it continues you know but that's what i'm saying when you when you say that you're looking into the emotions of the dog i you are puzzling me how you can say that you're looking and you are appreciating and you want the emotions of the dog but you don't see how the one dog interacts with the helper to to fight with him and the other one interacts with the helper to get a toy so clearly they're but the sleeve is a toy for this dog it's also a toy i'm thinking more that we can have dogs that always bark um they bark in front of the sleeve but they are never able to do like i don't know they don't even have much aggression but they are have to they just are taught to be barking there and they are expecting their toy so for me it's also like for me the sleeve is a big toy and there is a big difference as we know from the military dogs and police dogs and every all those dogs that you know a lot of dogs um you know who can bite the sleeve but they actually they don't want to bite uh if you don't have the sleeve they don't even know where to bite and so that's but see that's why we have a hope not in this stock's case because i understood this is a police talk or so but i'm just talking about generally sure that that it's it's not about this dog but it's uh um so here is here is how i would answer you that one like that's why we have the whole protection routine like right now we are judging is the dog directly engaged with the decoy and is he prepared to stop him that's that's what that is now we have a whole other part of the routine where we can judge the seriousness of the bites the gripping behaviors the speed and the entries and so on and so on yeah let's go forward and you could watch a little bit those talks forward so i think it comes interesting the emotional part so even even this um it's again i i just want to point out that there are a few different different that it's just that their mistakes are coming from different angles they are not the same mistakes because of different styles of training so watch now when this dog comes into heel position how he has to come between the body and the hand in that pocket in that tunnel and we can argue well that's nothing but we know that that's an extra security that uh um you you're getting extra control in some ways that's okay okay like there is no question about that like you and i are uh trainers in a very different level to where we cannot argue that many people cannot will say well what but i know you and i see this let's let's see it one more time

for me this is just so unimportant in protection like i see this like for me this wouldn't matter like at all yes but when you have yeah when you have two dogs that okay show again this dog show again this dog yeah you're comparing two dogs and two different training style so you have to decide which one you like but say big body helps also from him he moves the upper body and also shows the dog so both have again helps the other one opens the hand a little bit this handler makes it a shoulder and looks at the top hey come here and then moves it back so both have body helps both have the same helping the dog to end up in the perfect place but if i would be a judge i wouldn't care either one of those because now we talk about protection and not like obedience yeah but this is after wrinkles so but that's yeah that's the secondary part of protection is the obedience and yeah and this i'm more like we have the dog coming in the pocket is a very secure control this is very secure so for me it's still like you know this that we have so less excellent protection dogs like so less of those dogs who show like really really effective fights and the fire and everything that if there is something like this for me it would be like okay 0.25 points right something like this i would be so desired to see yeah no i mean i so this wouldn't matter for me of course i that that these are absolutely i'm a total agreement if we start to have more of them then we can start to count minus points for this those are little little things but those little things matter like this is a again like like this makes control there is no question like you you're having control here yeah yes um here you don't have control even though you help the dog to come to the position here the dog is independent here the dog is not independent that that's just my take um now okay it's perfectly trained there is just no question about that now i don't know if you see that but everybody liked the the part where the dog is trying to stop the helper and actually stopping the helper but yeah there is the transition moment and watch the grip here now i'll make it bigger yes watch the grip yeah and and now he makes what every good polystock or strong working dog is doing and he wants to really push and shake the person i love that personally if there comes one re-gripping but he dominates the helper also before the out and i love it i personally love it but yeah let's go forward

and then i'll be able to do it but no but but when we're talking about when we're talking about demonstrating the transition phase right and and one time and then really nice shake okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay okay Oh, shit. I remember somehow my phone stopped here. It's not like that's somehow. Yeah. I think I lost reception. I remember this now. It starts to play, but we actually, I don't think we have. Yeah, fuck. Oh, we don't really have that exactly that part. But I really, really wanted to see the escape and the re-attack after escape. I know, but we will see it on the other ones. Yeah, but that was me. My Wi-Fi stopped and I was like, I mean, I'm happy that at least I have that. But yeah, that's what that happened here. So let's catch up here on this. So there is the re-attack. And just to make a point, this dog here is ready to stop the helper. This is a dog ready to fight with the helper. In my opinion. Yeah, he goes really directly for it. But because he's on the right place. So there was that one, again, I mean, we're nitpicking. We're like looking at middle details because we are stopping and playing two routines and we have to take under considerations that you being a judge, you cannot do what we are doing here. But still, there is, you know. I actually would like to see this stuff like a silent, a silent guarding. I think he could make a really great silent guarding. He can make extremely nice active guarding. Like I've, I've, I mean, so many times we train, I know the dog.

It's kind of almost unfair to talk about it because I, I love the dog. The dog can get really angry and the barking is off the charts when, when he has the different meaning. Right now, it's just not, that, that's not, you know, like from, from this guarding, now we went to watch. Yeah, and I meant that, I think that this could make also really, really good silent guarding. If it would be trained for this. It just, everything changed. Like, you know. What do you, how do, what do you say here? And we play the next one. Okay, let's play the other one. It's like, also the grip, there was like no transition. You should wait a little bit, like a couple of seconds before you call the dog out. Absolutely. I mean, you should show the grip for the, for the judges, but now. Absolutely. It was immediately, immediately out without waiting. But we're not, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, he outs on the command. And, but I agree with you. It's not, that's why neither one has 100 points or 99 points. He was, and he was already once correcting and re-cripping his bite as well. Correct. But the handler immediately called the dog out without showing the transition phase. So we don't know how many, what will have happened for the grip there. Right. And as, as we know, it cannot be excellent if the handler is not showing it for the, for the judges. That's also one, one aspect because at this level, we expect this judge and this handler 100% surely knowing what he's doing. But that's why both of them don't have 100 or 99 points. We, we know that both of them make mistakes. Yes. Now, again, when this dog comes out, he also doesn't make a good transition. The other one also doesn't make a good transition. They are in two different ways, the transitions. But after the out, it's very different in this dog. Okay. Don't watch the transition. Watch the, what happens after the out. So the mistakes are, they, they both make mistakes. There's no question. It just, it just, this. I really would love to see the previous parting. Right. But, but since we don't have it, at least we have these two guards. Because I think in the other garden, he was missing the opportunity to bite. He didn't go directly for the bite. He was kind of like thinking there's something. If I remember. But again, let, I mean, we don't have it. So we, I can comment. I'm commenting only on what I can see. Yeah. And I also, you know, it's, it happened in May. So I also need to rewatch it, you know.

Thank you. And you know, this, like the dog is looking a bit away and looking the handler and kind of, for me, this is like the same intensity. Yes. What I'm missing. Again, like watch, watch what happens. Watch how that hand that we say that it's a minor deal. Watch how much control you can put with that. Right. Right. Yeah. Definitely not better than the other one in here. No question. And again, this transition was missing. Right. So let me, let me kind of, again, I, I, they have mistakes. Both of the dogs, they have different mistakes and some competitors and some judges like to see a dog that is not switching mood. And some other judges and competitors think that it's okay. I think that's, that's where it's at. Like I, I'm not, I'm, I can never argue that that dog doesn't make mistakes or the other one doesn't make, they, they make mistakes. And I would like this dog to show a better mood. You know what I mean? Like not even changing the mood, but just show the better mood. Right. And that's. And, and, and, and, and for me, like if you, if you start back transport, but the dog is not focusing on the helper there, but instead starts to look a bit around. And, and, and, and then I'm considering whether it comes from the training or whether it comes from the nerves of the dog, because I have had in my training group, for example, some dogs that they always did this, like even we trained them quite the same way than the other dogs, but they have so much difficulties to focus that they have to release their stress to look a little bit around. And, and, and that is something that also bothers me in Doc's emotional state. Yeah. When, I mean, the doc can look the handler, because he's taught to look at the handler and then he can look at the helper. But if there is a lot of this kind of running the eyes and watching, I don't know what, the audience or somewhere else, then, then that for me, it's the lack of intensity towards the helper and the right attitude towards the helper. Right. And, and, and again, it can be coming from the training and not from the dog's genetic, or it can be both, or I don't know where it comes from. But again, as judges, we can't start to give points by thinking that maybe it's just, you know, a little thing, because in the end, we are rewarding some dogs who will be in the, you know, it's a championship. So this is really one of the big debates that we're having, like you and me right now and the whole IGP community. It's this and this.

And I never even thought about this would be an issue for anybody like I have never thought about that. Right. If the dog shows the right attitude or it's attentive or it's continuous, that it matters the position of the bargain because that's a technical thing which we can change. But I can see that you see that not as a technical mistake, but emotional thing. And I see that as a technical detail, which can be changed depending what the judges want to see. No, let me, let me, you, you, I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not arguing that that dog doesn't have a dominant emotional state. He does. I'm saying that at this moment, his dominance, if you can call it dominance, we cannot, but he wants something different than this dog at that moment. And that's what the conversation right now is. The one dog is direct and ready to engage. Again, if you think as the helper and the sleeve as one piece, and the dog only knows that the, the, to stop the helper, he has to bite the sleeve and not, nothing else. These two pictures is where the big controversy in IGP lays right now. And I'm not like many, many, many dogs can change from this to this very easy, but also many dogs don't have the courage. And then we can mask temperament by doing that because they are not in a guarding position because they don't have to. And then as a judge, it's very difficult to evaluate. I don't know. But that's the, the one, the one big controversy is what do we want? Is that matter or does it not matter? Personally, for me, I can do both. I just have to know what they want to see. Right. I'm always looking more at the dog's body language and, and, and, and where he looks at and how. But I'm surprised that you. And he, of course, we can see the eyes of the dog really like what he really means. And we can have dogs who are in the perfect position here, but they are all the time looking at the sleeve. Yes. Because they are prepared for the bite. Yes. But then we can see dogs who are a little bit on the side of the elbow and, you know, they like to go a little bit that side. Yes. There can be a lot of variations, but. And all of that is judged. Yeah. I mean, all of that is judged. If the dog is not fixated on the sleeve, I mean, if the dog is fixated on the sleeve, then, then of course we are having a problem. In the old times, we always lost points for this. No, no. When the dog was perfect, perfectly in front of the sleeve, but they were just looking at the sleeve. Exactly. Exactly. And then we taught them as a, taught them to look at the eyes. Over the sleeve. Exactly. But this dog is not right.

Because everything is a little bit like a circus. Okay. But that's exactly, this is the biggest point I'm trying to make. We can make it a circus or we can keep the integrity of the program and strive to show what we really have as a dog. That's really the point. And as I said, as you said, dogs that are staring at the sleeve, and again, that's why we have the whole routine to where you know which dogs are still saying, yeah, give me the, give me the toy, even though it's the sleeve. You can recognize, and you, like saying that this guarding doesn't change the mood of the dog, the expectations of the dog. Like, like coming from you that understands emotion and you don't understand that that's a hundred and eighty switch in emotional state. From, I'm gonna fight, to when, where is my toys gonna come out. I think that that's one of them. But let's, let's go a little further. I haven't watched it like this. I haven't watched it like this. Yeah. Yeah, I try to mean what I find, like from, I have filmed them both. So I try to find also my, my phone. Like, Yanni's training is flawless. I mean, in this routine. I'm not saying all the time or whatever, but that, that, that routine, the dog basically did everything Yanni's training could do. Oh, now I found it, Ivan. I have it in my phone. Which one? Would you like, if I, if I share it, the escape. And the bite, what happens because you said many times that this dog is prepared for the bite when he guards. And I found now I have filmed it myself. So we could share it here. If I send it to you by WhatsApp for example, I try to make it quite quality. Yeah. And, and then you see what happens when the helper attacks. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. I don't. When so what I wanted to say is that when we look the whole picture and we look from the start and we see the whole program and we see all reattacks, then everything, every one of them gives some additional information from the dog and the emotional state and how good the guarding actually is. And if all the reattacks are super good, then we can say, OK, even the dogs maybe didn't sound so powerful because the dog's voice wasn't that dominant or something. But we can say, but the dog at least was like really reattacking and was always ready, prepared and so on.

Yeah. So so I think that that's why I said that we always have to look the whole picture, but everything, the whole performance, because every one of them will be like, you know, telling us something. And I mean about this, that if the dog looks away when the back transport starts, if the dog is not prepared when the reattack happens, if the dog is a little bit packing and forthing in the guarding, then we can say, hey, there is something that in the training level or or or or the dog or both or anything. But anyway, it's something that we shouldn't reward it with. Excellent. But look at the video and please share it when you have got it. But you understand I'm not saying again, they don't have mistakes. And you haven't seen this part, I think so. Let's go. But now we will watch. So the rocks. You see what I mean? He wasn't ready. It doesn't matter why, but he wasn't ready. So. Okay. He comes like basically the helper has helper pushes the sleeve into his mouth. Yeah. I mean, the helper has to go forward. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. I mean, the helper does everything correct. Sure. You know, but he pushes the sleeve there. The dog is just standing there opening the mouth and taking the grip. But he didn't go forward. Yeah. And this was so importantly always mentioned in FMBB meetings that we want to see a dog who is ready. And if we compare it, for example, now this previous dog, the other dog who was like really ready and he made like that. So there is like, there is the thing. Absolutely. So I mean, I absolutely cannot argue that the one re-attack is like Yanni's re-attack is better than Oli's re-attack. There's no question, right? And this is one of the most, I think, these are always very expensive bites because we want to see how the dog is attacking when the stick hand rise up. The dog didn't do anything and then the sleeve came to his mouth. And so, but okay. And that's the toss up between the active and silent guard. You know, that's why me including, I have trained my dog that he has a silent guard. But ultimately. You know what? I have to say one thing. Yeah. When I was so much shamed about my dog before that we taught him to guard, you know, on the other side. And we very quickly switched him to be an active in his guarding, like I mentioned. And now in our championships, I gave him the command and I think he even started like an active guarding twice. Like he started it like after the, if I remember correctly, I'm not, no, no, no, no, no, no. But anyway. Yeah. But he stayed really like in the perfect position, however, like, or like not the perfect, but the way, how you want. Right.

So, so in front of the sleeve. Right. Yeah. But again, like. Yeah. I, I saw the moment of the re-attack. Yes. The, the dog, the one dog, because he's in the barking, not prepared. But he, again, like the, this picture is very different. And for many trainers, including me, I, I would like to see that like you and some many influential trainers and judges say that's just as good. And that's a conversation that we, we just need to decide on. But right now, right now, when I have been listening to you, I'm, and, and, and definitely making sure that my next dog is barking right in the middle of the sleeve. Because I don't want to lose points for, it doesn't matter who is the judge. You know, I want to always train my dog for that good. That doesn't matter what's the preferred style. Right. I agree. I, I congratulate you for it. I think, I think it's important that we show that the dog is at all the time staying with the same emotional state of fight and it's not switching. Okay. I've done my job now. Let's do something. Okay. Let's watch it further here. Yeah. Let's watch it further here. Man, I hope people don't clap like this if I ever qualify again, because that's going to just give me a heart attack before I ever send him. But it's cool, though. No, it's cool for sure. It's cool. Also, here the grip is completely not full. It's a little bit open from the side. As we talked, when you have a dog who is guarding, like barking, then there is always the risk that they don't get the full grip, unless they are really eager to swallow. You know what I mean? Unless they have a very good reflex and you train it. You've got to like, yeah. Yeah, and the barking style, like depends how they bark, like how they rhythm themselves. But on the other way around, we all have a chance to teach our dogs to be silent in those guardians as well, if we want to. But we also know that some dogs, I mean, it takes a hell of a dog to be also really good in silent guarding. I think it takes even a bit more intensity. The dog can make a good silent guarding than like very good barking. I mean, of course, to be excellent in barking, that's another case. But to be a very good barker, it can be easier for many dogs to show better because they have a mission to do instead of being silent. So lots of handlers also hide things by not making them silent. You know, to go back to the point of what the crowd sees, when you have a silent guard, you can have a very good picture from a side. But when you are right there, you see the dog's expression and the dog's concern. Okay, I am not supposed to look around. I'm waiting for my handler to come,

and I'm very passive. I'm not ready to kill. And that particular moment, it's very difficult to detect from the bleachers, you know? But look how every time he makes an out, he shows that directness. He's like, I'm in your face, motherfucker. For me, this style, this body posture of that dog in the barking is, you know, like backing up a little bit and thinking, and then again up front and back. Yeah. So we have very, very different. I must say that I don't interpret, yeah, I don't interpret that as a dominant. I've interpreted more like, give me the bite, give me the bite, give me the ball, more like that. And another thing what is like, what bothered me here is that I couldn't see any transition phase where the handler would have shown in any of those five bites that he would really let, I don't know, maybe there was one of them. I didn't, now we just check it so quickly. But most of the transition phases, we couldn't evaluate what the dog would have been doing if the handler would immediately call the dog out. And so every single bite shouldn't have been excellent because if you, it's like hiding something. If you don't show it, how the judges can say what happens? And this is so many times told in the, in the FMVP judges, both in obedience and protection that, and I have heard it from the supervisors explaining to the judges that we want you to evaluate it on this way. If the handler doesn't show it, it's the same, like the mistake would have happened. So you have to downshift one grade lower. And I mean, like the predicate must go from excellent to very good or very good to good and so on, depending what other points the dog would have to go. So we are like really moving from one to the next too quickly because like right now, like I don't argue about the transition phases. There is no argument there. Yeah. We... Our... So, like, you can say, and again, these are, of course, there is personal preferences, but personal preferences sometimes are not necessarily what we want. And so, if this dog is backing up and doing all that, he stays direct. And this is very different. Let's watch it until the end. If we can watch the whole thing. OK.

Thank you. . So what, like, what you focus on is the rhythmic barking. What I'm trying to have you also consider is that the one dog stays throughout the routine in the same mood. And the other dog goes from fighting to play reward. And I am, again, not arguing that that specific dog cannot do what the other one does. It's just not, that's not what it's showing. That's not, he's doing what is asked from him to do. So, of course, he's switching gears. So for me, the thing was that the other dog showed five times full bites and the transition phase is where he was dominant and really like using the whole body to move. The helpers were like moving, he moved the helpers there like by shaking. There was maybe one or two times that he made the same time adjusting his grip even fuller, which would be like considered like preferable as a working dog. But of course, in our sport, it's a little mistake. But then, and this other dog was like, there was like one time that he didn't have a full, like one time exactly in reattacks, both reattacks. Other time he didn't get a full grip and the other time he was like hesitating to attack or didn't or wasn't prepared so that he didn't react on that. There was a moment of miss and the helper basically had to push the sleeve on the mouth. And also the handler didn't show the transition phases in every single five bites. So if we have, it cannot be excellent, like it cannot be 96 points. So, so it's like impossible if there is like, if, if, if every time judges are told that it has to go to very good from even, even the bite would have been excellent otherwise, but it has to go to very good because the transition phase is not shown to the, the judges. So how it can be then 96. So this is like, um, understandable for me, plus one, not full bite plus one time hesitating the bite. And then we can always talk about that was the guarding phases. Like, was it enough dominant? So for me, it wasn't, for me, it was very good body. I don't say it was bad. It was very good. Uh, the rock was staying in the same mood, like you said the whole time, but they were like moments of like, for me, he was thinking too much about the re bite and he wasn't that active. And, and, and, and, and he was putting the part almost in the seat position, kind of like, like, like wavering. I don't know. Um, so I, I would like him to put the, you know, like when he, I would like to see more active, more intensive, more fire in his parking. I'm just generally. I, I would, I would too.

I would too. But when I compare the two, you're, you, you consider them. Um, you actually almost tend to say that the dog that's going to the side, you, you would award more. And, and that's our argument and that's everybody's argument at this time. Um, as I say, that's why they don't have point. They, they all have losing a lot. But then the judges should give both of these stocks like 90 points, not 96. If they wanna, if they wanted to take points away from Yanni's stock, then they should have then also say, hey, every time, uh, then Yanni's stock should get more. Then Yanni's stock should get from all those fights where he makes a silent guarding. Then he should have got excellent. And then they should have taken three points where he makes the guarding phase. They should have given him then very good. This I would then, this would be the understandable to say, Hey, these two are excellent. These two are, they are like, these three are very good. But then in this other dog, he wouldn't have any excellent fights. What is the most expensive in protection? Which, which exercise is the most expensive? Um, the re-bites exactly where they stock, the re-bites are always, you know, like when the re-attack happens, where the stick hit basically used to be. So, uh, exactly where this dog did the big mistakes, you know, where he was too late. It's actually, it's actually all the guarding besides the blind, but all the guarding after the out. And then, uh, the, the IGP program is actually quite brilliant because whomever put the time, um, and it kind of sucks that we continue to move the goalposts and change it. Because, um, you really know when, what a dog is made out of. Not when he's on the grip. The grip prepares the dog. The grip prepares the dog. During the grip and the drive, you're putting the pressure of the dog. the dog, but the dog has something to hold on to. Where the dog really gets stripped down and exposed to who he is, is in the guarding phase. And this is why the guarding phases are so expensive, and I love that they are. And that's kind of my concern that we are trying to make a game out of the guarding phase instead of say, hey, this is my dog, she's a big ass motherfucker. That's really all it is. But let's, I mean, I think that we got this, like I think, and everybody has plenty of time to discuss this and hopefully they do, because that's super important, I think, where we are and need to be talked about. If one of these dogs had a, again, where the mistakes are and how many mistakes, like you can have few shallow grips and one not strong guard,

you will lose more points for the guarding. Just like you can have a, not as good down, out of motion, but you don't have a nice retrieve, they are not one to one the points. So you, you know, you make sure that you have excellent retrieves, you can afford to have a step or two in the stand and a little looking around on the down and so on, and still be on top of the other dog, because of the more complex and more important parts of the routine. I have a question for you. Yeah. When you look about now, let's say this Janis dog and his guarding, he made three of those guarding phases where he went to bark. He was continuous in his barking. He didn't anyhow react on any environmental stress or trotches or the handler when they were coming and so on and so on. However, what would you give as an evaluation? What would be your, would it be very good for you, not excellent, or would you even lower it worse than that? I, yeah, good, good one. And again, I, I, I just want to make sure that I am, you understand, I'm giving my own personal opinion on this. I think generally we are, we meaning how, how the judging is shifting. I think it's going in the right direction. And I think we shouldn't be killing the dogs that are doing this kind of guarding, but do what we just, what just happened, I guess, in the last few big competition, make a point out of it that that's not, that, that, that there is a difference, right? So if you're a smart trainer, start to adapt because this is where it's going and this is why. So I am, I'm perfectly fine with, with that kind of just, hey, I, I'm telling you that's where it's at and, and you need to do something to change. But eventually, I really think it should go to, to a good rating, this kind of guarding, if, if I am. And again, I, gosh, I, I mean, most of the friends and, and people I have, they, they train that way. Right. Yeah. And I feel that, you know, just because we are friends, we, we should be able to have just the conversation you and I have, because those are healthy conversations of, of making, hey, where, where do we want to go? Right. So in this competition, in this particular competition, from those three bites, which were, the bites were excellent. He reattacked perfectly for them. He had a full grip. He was very dominant there. And he also had like a really nice grip actually in those, I think in those transition phases, which was very, very visibly shown. And the control was good. Okay. Little hand help. I mean, would you, would you have given very good? There. Would you have given high, very good? Low, very good. Middle, very good. Low, excellent. High, excellent. What would be your points?

On, on, on, on Repi or on, Repi, Repi. I, I, I have no problem giving the points that he get. For this competition. So you would have given like a low, excellent, low, excellent. Yeah, I have no problem with that. Yeah. For this competition. But like, yeah, like a, a year from now. In the future. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And again, like I, I would have, like regardless who would have won, I recognize the two different styles. Yes. And, and I can, it's just not fair to say which dog is more dominant by nature because it's, it's what you see as a judge at the moment. Yes. What you see at the moment. And it can be the, and it can be the training, you know, the totally different training and so on. Correct. Just as we were talking about the escape bite. Okay. Some dogs are stopping the helper. Well, are they stopping it because we constantly run them into a chair and a blind and we teach them to do that? Or are they doing it naturally? And if they do it or don't do it, how much it matters? Because again, we have to, as a judge, how, uh, um, you can say, well, yeah, it's not an easy, easy place. I would say though that that performance, what we saw from Yanni's talk is something that you cannot even, teach that if the dog doesn't have that behavior naturally, like he's, that is exceptional performance. A hundred percent. What he shows in. Absolutely. A hundred percent. But this is something like, like, like, like, we can teach some dogs, you know, like, you and I also know the dog personally. We've, we've spent great deal of time to know the dog personally, and we know who he is. And we know that he's a very strong dog and very cool dog. It's, and, and as I said, he did brilliant of what Yanni asked for him to do. So it was flawless routine. Uh, from what Yanni asked for him to do. It's just that the, the, again, the argument is why would you do that? And, and, and also I think that it was like, for me, it was so exceptional because we so hardly see dog showing that much heart in the world championships. Like in the recent years, like in the recent years, and no matter what's the breed, they are not so many dogs. I can count them with my one hand fingers that really show that power in their bite. So the power was so exceptional and still the dog was able to do like full and, you know, creeps and everything. So, so, so I think, um, for me, that's why I, I felt it so unfair that the other dog without showing their precision face, is with a missing, like, like missing the moment of re attack with, uh, with another one by taking not full grip and so on. So for me, there was so big. So, so these are like so clear for me that with those mistakes, it cannot be for me excellent.

And it couldn't be then. And, and this is something what we don't have to be on the field because we can see also from the stands, if the handler is not showing, for example, transition faces or, or we can see if the dog really is not ready to re attack. And, and, and I think that's very big mistake, no matter. I'm, I'm sure it's also one competition and it won't happen in the next one. I'm, I'm sure this, you know, this dog has also more, you know, better competitions in front of him, but it was just something that in this particular performance, it didn't show his best performance there. Yeah. So that's, that's like my, uh, interpretation. And that's why it felt unfair that they ended up with the same points. Yeah. I, I mean, again, the points are different and I don't know, this is how I see it. I, I'm not there and I'm not, you know, whomever the judges were. Yeah. My, my, my assumption is that the one was losing points in different areas and the other one was different losing points in different areas. The day ended up very close. And just as I was giving you the example in obedience, some points are, some parts of the routine are very expensive and some are important, but they, they're just not as, they don't bring that amount of points. And that, that's my take. They might be, there might be politics. There might be, there might be a lot of things going on, but, um, I'm, at least I'm 100% sure. I would never have got those points with the same performance. If I wouldn't show transition phases, they would kill me on the field. In, even in Finland, they would have never done that. And it's even a national competition. Yeah. So I think that, it has been so important in our sport. They have been so much highlighting this transition phase for the hunters. I would say, Yeah. It like, I mean, anybody that wants to see like the 2015 in check in PSEC, watch the top five routines and, and see how, you know, judging gets influenced and whatever it's, it happens. When the routines are close and you're a judge and you like one style more than another style, you naturally tend to reward this one that fits you more. The, Yeah, of course. The idea is to have, Of course. Yeah. to, to develop more united kind of vision of, as I, as I was showing you the two guards, for example, let, let's figure it out because I know for sure that the tendency is that we don't like the dog to switch mood and to, and to avoid the sleeve and so on, at least at pleasant time. Um, let's go to, let's go to, um, um, um, um, obedience a little bit. I think they, I think it's the same stuff. A dog that's trained to perform and a lot of dogs like, like, let's take the dumbbell.

I think we talked about the dumbbell, didn't we? Last time. I'm not sure. Sure. So let's say the one dog goes and takes the dumbbell and goes and takes it and turns immediately, but it doesn't have that crazy speed. Yeah. And the other one has the crazy speed, but it takes three more steps forward before he decides to turn. Yeah. Yeah. And if we, uh, uh, as a, as a breeder again, I want to see which dog is more, has the, what are the more natural tendencies as much as possible. Training's becoming very, very advanced to where we can, we can change things. Um, but I think it's sometimes super. Yeah. But to, to some, to some extent. And so like right now we have healing as being six, 15 points. And the reason is because we start to realize that there is a lot more into healing, which I also kind of can argue, even with 10 points as it was, because we still could have break it down and, and emphasize what we want, but they decided to put more points. I'm okay with that. There is many different styles of training, healing, like you and I train differently. Yeah. But there are dogs that are stuck in their foundation training to where they have not moved past that point in training. And when you look at that dog healing, they, they are not, they are not connected. Like we can talk about harmony. We can say, well, the tail is up and the ears are up and, and he's energetic, but, but they are fixated on something else. Clearly, like you can clearly see it. So, if a judge can clearly see that that dog, let's say comes to a basic position, and it comes way back to the shoulder area, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or when they're healing, they're clearly fixated on something. Let's say the, what is it called? The one, contacting where you have it on the belt or whatever, and, and you teach the dog to make that. Yeah. And so, there are many different ways to get to Rome, but eventually, the, the good trainers are able to put the foundation and move on from there. And there is a vast number of healing routines where you see dogs that are very mechanical and disconnected as they're doing. You, you know what I'm saying. I know you know what I'm saying. And, and now that's another one, big one. Do we say, well, he, he looks like the other dog, but as you are walking right next to them as a judge, you see the dog is fixated on, on something that has nothing to do with another dog. That's actually interacting as they are healing. Do you know what I'm saying? Mm. Yeah. I mean, I know you know what I'm saying. You may not agree with it, but I think you know what I'm saying.

Usually we can also see it in the turns or in the speed changes or in the stops or in some other parts. Like, like, like, um, so, so that, so that if, if, basically, um, I, I understand they are like very, so for me, there can be so different styles of healing and, and many of them can get excellent. Like, um, whether the dog walks, like, like how the whole holds the eye contact or how he moves his front legs or something. That, that wouldn't really matter so much. Like, like, like, of course, like my style produces certain type of styles. Of course, like my method produces certain types of healing for sure. Like your, your style also. But I think, um, the most important there is this kind of, um, the rock stays in harmony, balanced, affected with the hammer. He is ready to react for turns. He is, uh, not shifting his mood, like, throughout the healing, you know, because we have some dogs that, that, that they change a little bit, like depending. And I have been, and I have been struggling personally with one of my dogs with that a lot. Like, really a lot, my current. And, um, that, that he has like, you know, there's this 50 shades of gray, this book, or, or this kind of, uh, movie, you know that. Okay. So we have made jokes at 50 shades of tail position. My dog has that. So, uh, so, so for example, this, and it tells something about the dogs, uh, what he's thinking about during the healing and then the connection and the relationship between us. And when he thinks about the toys coming, he's at the thing, he's at the fixated about things like this. Now does it comes out. The down comes, now comes the next thing or something. And this shouldn't be visible. And that should be basically punished in the competition, in my opinion. So, um, here is a question. Um, very interesting question. Yeah. You're the judge. There is you. You, I mean, you're stuck at the finals as a judge in obedience. You're judging two dogs in healing. And for whatever reason, you actually clearly, and I know you, you're more than capable within 10 seconds to see it. But you see the one dog overly fixated on the armpit or on the belt or on the back of the, like, like you clearly see it. It's not like you, you, you clearly see it. Like to the point that you, you know exactly what's happening. And then you have the other dog that it's not fixated like that. And to specify here, I'm not saying that the training approach is right or wrong. I'm saying that if you go to the finals and the judge can say, that dog is just staring at an imaginary something there, that means you haven't progressed your training to the level that you need to. So it doesn't look that way. But as a judge,

if you can see that and the other dog, you don't see it. I think it will be unfair to put the two dogs in the same category. Well, I think I would have, I would maybe look it on this way. I think it's a good way that usually if the dog is fixated on some imaginary spot of the reward, like in the wrong way, you know, they usually have then a wrong body position. They go then two behind or something like this. But if the dog would be, I mean, if the dog would be clearly watching up, but not to the face, but you know, like somewhere, the body, but the dog's position, you know, that he would be straight position. He would be otherwise harmonic. There would be no mood or rhythm changes or something. And he would be very active in all the turns and also in the halts. It wouldn't be my preferable way, but I would reward him with excellent. But in most of cases, if there is some kind of wrong fixation, usually the dog is then two behind when he makes the halt or he sits, you know, like in halt, for example, or in the turns or somewhere. So if I would see there clearly mistakes, then of course I would have to, you know, um, lower the grade. So I would look more this because it's not like really written really clearly in the rules exactly where the dog's eyes must be staring at. But, uh, but if the dogs, if the dog would be, then actually, it is in the rules. I don't want to pull the rules out, but it is, it does stay in the rules that, um, you basically, if you, if you recognize that the work is mechanical and it's disconnected or it's fixated on something different. Again, training styles can vary, but you have to end up to the ultimate picture to where the judge is watching it. And it's like, okay, the dog is not looking to, to the back of your, belt or whatever. But if he, but if he, but if he would look there, I think then, then they usually, there are other issues as well. Like I, I, I have, I don't remember that I would have never seen personally. Oh, there are many issues. Of course. I mean, like all of your, you know what I mean? All of your positions will be a disaster typically because the dog is so fixated on, on being stuck on that, that they cannot separate. Right. There is, there is a whole level of other sequences of consequences. But so that, that's one thing in the healing that if, if a judge is capable and say, okay, that dog is just really, he's, he's fake. He never progressed. He's stuck in kindergarten. That's not, not, that's not the same as the dog has graduated from that and showing a different picture. And, and usually it's like, usually there's also like the wrong emotional state a little bit, you know,

there is something like the harmony or, or power or energy or something that the dog is putting into the work, uh, or just the connection. So, yeah. And then we go to another one. Let me give you more in the healing. Yeah. So then we say, well, when we say it's free healing, how free do we say, when do we say, if the dog is really pushing and the dog that is kind of not pushing, but a judge clearly can see that the dog is having that contact kind of light velcro as a, as a stability, as a security versus the dog that doesn't do it, or maybe from time to time make some contact, but the kids not searching it as a safety. Yeah. I think as a judge, you have to acknowledge that too. But then it's also a bit of a question of power. It's also a bit of a question of power. So it depends how much power we want to see, because I have felt that it's always connected with that. The more powerful the dog is, then the more close they are usually. And then if we really want to bring this kind of international obedience here, you know, they have this 10 centimeter distance that the dog has to be, and then it starts to look more like the border collie. So I'm also thinking about that. That's not my preferable way. Otherwise I would have competed in international obedience. So I prefer like this kind of powerful healing, but I, I, I come off like, I connected a bit with the power. No, no, I understand what you, so, but the question, You see what I mean? Of course, like to make it more difficult for you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you have now two dogs with power, and the one from time to time, make some contact, and the other one maintains that contact, as I say, and, and clearly you as a trainer, as a judge, you understand why that dog is there, but they both have power. Again, which one do you award more points or are they the same? Yeah. I, I think in this way, it's a good question because I would look again, the emotional state, because again, if that power is, if that connection, not the power, if that touching is a safe spot. Right. Again, we can see it in the dog's emotional state. We can look the eyes of the dog. We can look like all the hulks, how the dog reacts, or if he stays, you know, you know, we have to look then more the emotional state of the dog and the facial expression and the body expression. So if the dog is like avoiding, let's put it on that way, there is a bit more stress and the dog is like kind of escaping a little bit for, for these, or if the dog is like, yeah, I really want to work with you, you know, there is a difference with some. Right. And we, and then, then, so, if we can see this kind of negative side effects, then I would again reduce,

you know, great lesson or something like that, you know, then, then it goes for this. Yeah. So we, I think we're on the same. I think this is universally hard to argue, and I'm glad we were on the same place with this. And I, and I want to, for everybody that's listening, I'm not insisting on one training method that is better than another. What I'm saying really is that so many trainers are stuck literally in the kindergarten of training. And as you said, because, because of that, even the change of position gets very tricky because they, they're, they cannot unsnap and separate with the comfort that the other dog does because of that kind of, right? So there is a bunch of other side effects from it. And I, I don't think the majority of IGP trainers at the moment believe that they need to improve their healing past the level of kindergarten. And, you know, they, they, they're happy with that. And, and maybe the judges are failing again to, to say that and only take points. And then people are unhappy and protesting because they don't understand where, I don't know. I'm just talking. But it's, it can be also that, um, I don't know if, if it's so that they wouldn't like to do that, but I think it's hard to do that. Um, it depends also the dogs qualities, because as we know, some dogs are naturally cooperative and engaged with humans and some dogs are not that so much, or they can be more passive. And I think, um, what I found also is this, that we have like some dogs who have a bit more higher energy level, some are like too hectic and nervy. And that's why the handlers are forced to like, give them the safety spots. Smart. And they're smart. Yeah. And, and, and, and they should be seen like a little bit if there is like these nerves connected for the healing. But this is why. And then another way around, we may have also those. Yeah. We have to agree that, that dogs that get those excellent score, like, you know, like the tendency right now is the complaint, kind of a major complaint is why is nobody getting excellent scores. Yes. And, and that's kind of one reason why, because you need excellent genetics, paired with excellent training. Together. And that's hard, you know, you have hope. Yeah. And have all the stars today lined up for you. And that's not easy. You have to have the excellent genetics. And if you don't have it, then you do the best you can to compensate. But if the judge can pick on it, don't get upset. Excellent training. You need the excellent training. You need to make sure that you graduate from kindergarten. You don't get stuck there. That's. And I think, and I think that is fair. And,

and the one thing what I think also is really important here is that, in my opinion, it can be just my opinion. And it's maybe wrong. It's maybe not true. It's true. But I have that feeling that it's harder nowadays to find genetically, like, those dogs who are talented to do the excellent, because we either, we have this nervous, nervous dogs, like, like the dogs arousal state has somehow got like higher. So we have like dogs who are highly energetic, like, but they don't really have that ability to focus on the real desire to play and fight. So the prey drive and the fight and the fighting spirit, natural fighting spirit and prey drive has been Malinois, went lower. And then, like we see a lot of dogs who don't like to play with balls, you know, and they have some drive that comes out of aggression, but you cannot really use that so well in obedience. You need to have a dog who naturally wants to play with the ball. Yes. I mean, who likes to fight and play the ball. That's another one. Very good one. That's a super point, because you have a dog that's healing. Sorry to interrupt. I'm just so excited. Yeah. I shouldn't be interrupting you so much. No worries. I just get so excited. But because you bring super points and, you know, like, like I also am convinced that many, many, many people in the sport totally confuse positive energy and active dog in a, in a positive way versus dog that is frustrated and, and looks like he's active, but he's active, but he's frustrated deep inside. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. And, uh, and I think the problem comes already there that we need to start to get more puppies, more dogs that naturally want to play, naturally want to fight and have a good ability to focus and concentrate and keep the mouth shut and, and, and focus what we are doing. And when we start to have those dogs more, who really have that natural drives and not some drive that comes out of only aggression and only from the nerves, then, because those dogs who, you know, um, who make the fight out of the nerves, they have really a lot of difficulties to, even in obedience, when they play, you know, I play with the dog and you can see the dog's eyes when he's like looking the right and left and right and left doing the biting. There's still concern. There's still something going on. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. They are, they are a little bit all the time, like concerned about the environment. And that means that they have difficulties tend to like really focus on doing the obedience as well. And the handler, if it's a good handler, they need to use a bit more corrections to get the dog more focused and, and they can do that. But you,

like you said before, you can see the difference in the outcome, you know, but if the handler start to choose like, oh, we have to breed and the breeders start to breed, like we have to really focus on breeding dogs that really have more natural talent for playing, because I think it's the most pittiest thing in the whole thing. If, if the Malinois start to be like a dog breed that doesn't want to play, right. Uh, just for the poor prey drive and fighting spirit. And then, um, so the one thing is this, that, um, if the judges start to take more points away and they have to play, they have been doing that since now, then the handlers must start to think what kind of dog they need to get in order to teach the excellent obedience. So, uh, for me, I, I haven't been complaining actually personally about the judging in obedience. And if, and, and if I would bring, for example, the dog, what I would like to bring now, or what I, you know, like my, my current competition dog, which I talked before. And so the reason why I don't bring him, to the world championships is because he really was the lowest prey driven dog of that leader. And I was struggling so much to getting him focused, to getting him playing, to getting me doing a piece. I get him now. He looks nice now, but you can see the signs. You know, you can see if you really know how to read the dog, you know, there is possibility to say, uh, uh, here, like you said, retrieves, he has a lot of drive for the dumbbells, or he goes, he attacks for it. He makes a little circle before he starts to speed up, because he doesn't have that natural drive for the ball so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, he's like satisfied when he got the dumbbell already. And, and I have really worked hard to get it, you know, like, like to get excited about the ball as well, you know, both of them, but it, it's just that the, and, and the only way to make it would be pressure. You know that, artificial artificial way to, to make it better would be to put pressure, but that's not fun. And that's not how I want to train him, you know? And so, and then I have another dog, the young one, you know, who has that naturally. When I take him 12 months old to the competition field, they were like people and cars and everything. And he has been in the car three days because we went to the Finnish championship and he was like, you have the ball. I can focus anytime, anywhere. I don't have to use any. And he is there. He doesn't look anywhere when, when he wants to play with me. And it's not because of the insecurity that he's escaping, but he just has naturally more drive for the ball. And that is natural.

But then on the other way around, the, the elder dog, what I have, he's super good. Like he's very strong in his aggression and he's good with the helpers and so on. And he's all the time searching the possible helper somewhere because the ball is not interesting for him. So I think for him, the challenge is if he goes to military dog is that he must search explosiveness. Yes. Even after he could have a chance to bite somebody in the room. So he has another, but, but, but he will for sure be really, really talented in biting those bad guys. So you're bringing some super cool points here with, with the two, the two dogs of yours. I mean, it incredibly, it's easier to say that because, you know, I, they are my breeding so I can blame them. I can say them and I don't, you know what I mean? No, of course, of course. So I don't hurt anybody's meaning. Maybe, maybe somebody. I know, I know that that's, yeah. I, I, You know what I mean? Yeah. People are very sensitive. I know exactly what you mean. I, yeah. But, so like, this is the, in my opinion, the hardest part of the judges that understand what you just talked about, because they feel responsible to show us, the competitors and the breeders, which dog has what traits naturally. And every dog has something and lacks something. So like Mahis, for example, he's a tough, when, when you challenge him, he, he stands his ground. He has definitely something to bring into somebody's breeding program. Because of that. Yeah. Yeah. And then your other dog, he has a, a whole different, suitcase of qualities that, a different breeder is searching for. And the, the judging, and the program, ideally, I wish that, it is about pointing this out and say, okay, yes, you have an excellent training. But your dog, we can see that if, if you can see, if you cannot see it, there is no, you cannot argue. It hurts off. You, you've done an amazing job and that's it. But, as a, as a judge, a responsible judge, I think the obligation to the community is to say, I see the natural tendencies, versus excellent training. And then I see excellent training with excellent natural tendencies. And then we can start to accept that. And that's, that helps you and me and everybody that cares about the breed and, and does breeding because you, you know what you're working with. But it's super hard for a judge, even the best ones, sometimes to make that separation. That's natural. That's excellent training, but it's not natural. Sometimes it's difficult. And when it's difficult, then nobody can do anything. But in the cases where it can be pointed out, I think it's good to be pointed out and we shouldn't get upset about it. It's a community,

not talking about anybody specific because it helps everybody that way. And thinking this way, making excellent points in anything is, we just know much more today. And we are appreciating the training and we're appreciating the genetic qualities and the combination of both to where we realize that it really, truly is an exceptional dog with an exceptional trainer. It's not everybody. And that's kind of going back to the point of why, why is nobody getting more than 93 points? And sometimes I cannot say it loud enough. Sometimes we all get fucked on the competition. And sometimes it's the judge picked on it and he knows and he sees it and he says it how it is. But the, I don't know, just the demand of asking for more points, it seems dangerous to me. Like I look, I just looked at the VDH. And so we have this thing, okay, the FMBB judges are becoming fanatics and they're just so, so hard. And now other judges are, okay, we're not going to be like this. We're going to start to kind of be more, you know, just a little bit of Santa Claus here and there. Now, which one do we like? Yeah, I think that because, yeah, because I'm a, I can't really call myself even a breeder because I breed so less. I can't even say that I have a breeding program because. But you are a breeder. I'll tell you why, because you, you, you know, lines and you know what lines bring what. And that's a big part of being a breeder. But I, but I, but I breed like a, yeah, I breed like a one litter in a year. And, and so, and so it's like super less, but however, but I have been, I have been a Hmong in the breeding in the last 20 years. So 24 years. So kind of, it's a long, long time anyway. And so, I think because of this breeding aspect and also as a kind of, I consider myself selfishly and, and, um, arrogantly as a top competitor as well. So because I, I, I, I, I, I think. Nobody can take that away. That's like. Yeah. But that's a bit, uh, like, uh, arrogant to say, but, but, uh, yeah, but I consider myself also like a competitor who wants to, you know, succeed well. So, so in both ways, I think it's important that we also look, we look all these aspects and I, I prefer hard touching, but fair touching. Like I said, my heart is always in protection. I want to see a dog who is really powerful and self-confident. And, and that's the most important thing for me there and there, that's the aspect where I can, I can forgive. If I would see really that kind of dog that really amazes me, I can say, okay, there was a little hand help or something, but that's something that I can forgive there then in order to reward the dog

who otherwise shows those qualities because we don't have them so many. In obedience, I really want to see dogs that can be silent, focused, uh, still energetic, put power in their work and, and are willing to cooperate and engage with the handler and who don't have this kind of like reluctancy to like, how to say, I mean, the dogs don't have to please the handler, but they have to be willing to do cooperation, engage, you know, they need to be dogs who love to work. And, and then, um, and, and I think this should be something that should be rewarded and there are not so many dogs who can do this excellently together that they are also excellent in protection. I think then the combination, to find those. And, and I think that that is something that, uh, it's easy to find, of course, those dogs who are super cool in obedience, like, you know, border collies in, in international obedience, but then to find the dog that is like that in obedience and also really, really good in protection, then it needs also skills from the handler to get all these things together. And then of course, the tracking tracking is also one part. So, however, I think I, I, I, I'm in your way in this way that I, I like that the judges are not Santa Claus is, um, and give and make everybody happy by giving 96 points, because then there is no difference, you know, there, and the handlers don't get the information which they need to get in order that we can keep this, keep these beautiful dogs as a good working dogs. And, um, and another thing is that when we are training our dogs and we know that, uh, those aspects we have to take care of, it gives us also a lot of information. If we would be more honest with our dogs, if we could talk about our dogs, good things and bad qualities and, you know, all these things more honestly, it would be also really, really much more easier to breed good dogs. But when I'm now talking like this, people are like, Oh, she has a bad dog and I don't want to take a dog from her. You know, I was considering to take a dog from her sister's litter, but I don't want to have a dog like she had, you know what I mean? They go for this because they don't even understand that you can't breed a litter where every dog is like a piece of gold. And that, but that's what I'm saying, even like just, just going back to Mahis, you know, like you don't click with them. Natalia constantly, she's like, man, I wish I, I, I take him. I love the dog. I wish she just keeps going back and forth. Now she knows my hair. And I'm

like, shut up. You have already three dogs. Just leave it alone. You're not taking Mahis. You know, I'm going to give you directly this money by cash. I want to have that. And, and his wife was like, I also want to have him. Yeah. So what I did, what I did was that I let them take my dog in the last training. I have videos and they were handling him. You know, take the dog and show, try. But, um, what about the new rules, the, the proposals for the new rules specifically? Like I have, I have one in mind. I'll, I'll start that conversation. Yeah. Lowering the jump for IGP one to 80 centimeters. Oh, I hate it. Like who came up with that idea? Like why? Because you know, um, you know, in Finland, they made a new rules. I will tell you, we have now IGP, IGP one rule, like, like you can do the a obedience or B obedience. In B obedience, you can decide the lower, uh, hurdle and you can take, uh, lighter dumbbells. Like you can go to a third class, I think with 650 gram dumbbell and so on. And they wanted to do it, uh, in our national sports. It's not in IGP, but we have the same IGP obedience in our searching and tracking and so on. And they said they want to do that. And they, and there is no gunshots because now the dogs who are afraid of gunshots, they can compete. The dogs who are afraid of jumping one meter, like those little breeds, they can compete and they don't have the power to fetch the two kilo dumbbell. They can compete. And I, I think that's a nice idea. We can have this kind of B obedience and you can compete there. That's not going to be in the championships, but you can, if you have a dog who has this kind of genetic, they have genetic problems, you know? So I think it's cool that they can, they can, they can, so people who have those dogs, they get to this sport, they get into this sport, they can start to do this sport and they have fun, they can compete, but then they cannot go to the championships. And hopefully those dogs wouldn't be used for breeding in our breed. I understand if they are breeding, you know, Moody or Pumi or, you know, this kind of dog breeds, so, you know, like, I don't know, you know, little dogs is another thing, but in our sport, it's measuring working dog quality. So we should never lower the hurdle because we have so, I don't say so many dogs, but I would say we have too many dogs that one time touch the hurdle and they are a little bit soft and they thought they had to hesitate to jump and they are not good jumpers. They don't trust themselves or something. And then they are very

good with 80 centimeter because you can do it like in agility, like little, little jump, little jump, 80 centimeter. But then you put this one meter, it seems to be like a big ghost to many dogs. Yeah. And, and not, not, not so many, not so often with Malinois, it has been more the problem for German Shepherds because of the body of them, but, and the men both together. But now we start to have it also with Malinois. For sure. You know, it gets worse. For sure. Because of the real drive is missing, they don't really want some ball or something. They're like, I don't need the ball, I'm a bit afraid of the hurdle. I don't want to jump. So, so, so in my opinion, like we can make another class for those dogs, but we shouldn't make the kind of... Yeah. I love that idea. Actually, actually, that's very smart what they're doing in Finland because it allows, I have a dog. So why... People to come to the sport. Come, you're welcome. Of course, train the dog. What better than spending time training and playing with your dog. Sure. But when we're talking about the gunshots, if we're gonna do IGP, like actual IGP, bring the gunshots back in the BH because if the dog cannot, it's not sound and it's reactive to noise, we can find out way before you are deep into the program. And it's important because our program is designed to exactly to expose the genetics, the good and the bad. So the gunshot, in my opinion, should be already the first thing. Like I tell you when, and I don't know what I do now, but when I used to be a guide dog trainer way back in the nineties, they will have the breeding program. The dogs will go to 4-H homes, meaning they get to families and be raised. And then eventually at a year, a little over a year old, they come back for training. And day one, the very first thing we did is whine everybody on the field away from each other so there is no stupid things. And then a gun tester comes from a distance and takes everybody that cannot handle it out of the program before the program ever starts. That's how important it is. And we have that opportunity in the BH already to do that. And having the program that you're mentioning in Finland, it's brilliant because still gives those dogs outlet and they need it. But at the same time, you're not stuck in doing something thinking that, oh, you already know right away if you didn't know on your own. So I think the gunshot should be one of the first things to see because you know, it tells you so much about the temperament of the dog.

And I think actually, like, when you mentioned about the dog in a funny way that, not in a funny way, but you said this, that if you don't get excellent because you don't have an excellent quality dog or you're not an excellent, you didn't succeed to train in an excellent way. But the same is a little bit with this country thing that people in Finland, and I think in US or many places, they say we should make firework, like forbidden, because dogs are afraid of that. And I think it's a bit similar argument that why we always have to change. Like, when I have owned my new ones since 1990s, and none of them, not a single one of them, I can walk with them in the in the New Year Eve. I mean, maybe I have some common sense that I don't bring them like, you know, some crazy New York. I don't know. But but generally, I can I can walk with them normal, they are not anyhow stressed, they are perfectly fine. This should be the goal for every dog breed or no matter the breed, the breed dogs that don't stress this kind of things. And so in in my opinion, actually, we shouldn't even have a dog show, we should have the in the dog shows, the first thing, I mean, just for if we really want to do a favor for the dog's mental health and the well being and everything. The first thing should be, you can use the dog breeding only, I mean, if you say you have to x-ray the hips and the gunshots, if the dog is not afraid, you can breed this dog no matter if it's a Maltese dog, or if it's a Tibetan spaniel, or if it's a Kana Korsko or whatever. Yeah, it should be the first thing the breeders to consider. They are not afraid of noises. But of course, I understand that it's a big issue. It's money, you know, but it's money, I think it's money. And they don't care because New Year is only once in a year. And you can always say that it's anyway stupid to put money on the sky and maybe even the nature animals can be afraid or something. You can always find another arc. Yeah. That I personally really like, really like firework. I think they are beautiful. I'm so superficial. Sorry. I know a lot of people will hate me because I say this aloud now. And because I think that's the smallest little thing is that we should breed dogs who are not afraid of this. Yes. And it's easy to do. It's easy. It's not hard to do. And going back to like to to circle back to the jumping, I had this conversation. I don't know what was his name. Louis, the German Shepherd. He's a big confirmation judge in Australia. He wrote that big book, really good book. I can't think of his full name, but I had a conversation like the show German

Shepherds, instead of having them run around in a circle, instead of doing this, what do you call it? The AD with the bicycle, just have a jump, not one meter, just 80 centimeters. But let's start there. Easy one. Yeah. And if you cannot jump still, again, just kind of like with the program with IGP, don't go very dramatic and kill everybody. But if you cannot jump 80 centimeters, you cannot have the VA rating. That's going to be a disaster as far as the income for those breeders and the whole German Shepherd confirmation machine. But within 10 years, those dogs will change simply because they added a criteria. Dude, you've got to be able to jump 80 centimeters. Like, you have to. And instead of us maintaining the jump, we're now deciding to make it 80. We immediately want to, if whenever possible, if the program can expose the dog. Okay. He's not, he's sound sensitive. There is a flow in the genetic makeup of that dog. That dog cannot jump one meter. He's struggling. He's, he, he really just, conformation doesn't allow him to. It's not that they don't want to. It's just the conformation doesn't allow him to. We take it off the table instead of lowering the criteria. It's such a big mistake. I can, I, my mind just goes blank. I have no idea who decides on these things. And if we want to make the sport more available and accessible, then that idea that what, what they do in Finland, I think it's amazing. But it's not in IGP. It's just the other sports, you know. But we should adopt that in IGP. So it's like, yeah, yeah. It's like a national sport. What else comes to mind with the, with the new rules? Anything that you looked into? No, to be honest, I haven't, I haven't even checked them yet. Yeah. I, I'm like, I'm, I have been so busy with other things. So I'm always like, okay, rules changed. Tell me and I will train my next stuff like that. It's a bit like this take, take, take, take out. But my, my, my overall comments, hopefully somebody of, of these people that are playing with the rules listens to this and maybe takes it on their consideration. But I think level one and two shouldn't derail you, shouldn't sidetrack you to train something different. No, yeah, exactly. They have to flow. Like you have to leave him behind. They have to flow and prepare you for the actual level three instead of sidetrack you. Yeah. And some of the propositions are just that they are sidetracking. Yeah. Like stand from walking and then you have to go back to your dog. And it's like another external exercise and do it directly from running.

I mean, they're like, they're like, I think like the stand is a good example. And the A-frame I have never understood that. Why it can't just be the same basically. I don't know. Or for me it's like, yeah. Or at the very minimum, at least allow a trainer that has high goals and is preparing the dog for level three. They do it the same way like in IGP. Exactly. Exactly. At least, at least allow that. Right? I have a new dog. I'm training and I'm like, so what now? I have to sit him on that side of the A-frame. I have to come here and make her like, why? I mean, if they make it easier, why not to make it like, if they really want to make it easier, why not to make it on that way? You can hold the dog from the collar, throw the dumbbell over one meter hurdle, and then he doesn't have to sit there, you know? He can just speak like that. Then you let him just fetch it, you know? And then there is the A-frame. You can hold him in the collar. And if you really want to make it easier, then that's the way to do it. But instead of like, you know what I mean? Or you don't have to call him out of the blind. You can go there, take him from the collar and pull him away. Then it would be easier. Then there is like, how to say, then you can bring the dog to the IGP-1 actually when he's younger. Because you don't have to have those separate thoughts. If you want to. But it doesn't help anyhow that you do like, in the IGP-1, you can leave your dog behind the A-frame and call him. So this is something that I don't kind of, I mean, if you really want to make it like a low level, like we know that in Mondioring or maybe in PSA or the other sports, it's like simple, easy to go to those first classes without so much training. Like after three months training, you can go there. Yeah. But then that would be, then if we want to make it on that way, then IGP-1 would be no corner in the track. Just one line and an article. For example, if we really want to make it like a low level entrance. I don't know how to say it in English, but you know. No, no. Yeah. Then it would be, sorry, I'm like making some noises with my pen. And then you can make obedience like with lesser control. Basically, you have to lessen the control parts. Yes. Then it's easier. Yeah. Leave the sender way out because then it's, that takes time because you don't want to call the dock down before you, before you have done like a couple of, like a long time drive at the dock. If you really want to build like an excellent championship level sender way, you need to spend a lot of time for this usually.

So then you can say, okay, we can leave the sender way away from the first class. Then that makes it really like hell of an easier. Usually that's for me, one of those exercises where I don't want to bring one and a half year old dock to IGP one, but if there wouldn't be exercise, I could bring him, you know, something like that. Yeah. But you know, kind of. I like the, the, they considering bringing the sit out of motion 10 points again, because we know it's for whatever. I don't know why, but it's a, it's a complicated thing. And, and I think. It is. I think. The most difficult of all of them. Yes. And I, I, I actually, I mean, when, when you think about it, it is directly connected with that kindergarten healing that I'm talking about because the dock, it's overly fixated and cannot separate. Yeah. And then you kind of, you start to put some more. Yeah. And pressure and pressure, not necessarily corrections, but just demand to do it. And now they get even more concern about the sit. And I think, um, um, you know, how the dog heals immediately reflects how the dog sits. And, and even if it's not that it's the reality is we have problems. Dogs, dogs, dogs struggle to make us it. And 10 points, uh, going back to the 10 points, I really, I think it's a good thing. I know a lot of people disagree with that, but hopefully they, I don't know. What do you think of the sit? Yeah. I think for me, it doesn't matter again. Like I can, I can leave with the five points or 10 points, but that wouldn't matter for me. Um, I understand it's a difficult exercise, uh, for many reasons. And, uh, first of all, it's some dogs, it's genetically difficult to sit like relax way when they are expecting reward or, or more, more intense in their healing and so on. And then some dogs, it's like natural, more natural to sit like easy way. And then of course the training methods can vary and so on. And then I think there is one interesting part. And I think that's something what many handlers haven't considered about. Have you, um, I realized that handlers such like you or me who are quite experienced about the body control. Like we can control the body. Like we know exactly which moment we give the command and we can separate, like we can decide that we give the command when the left, left leg always goes to the front or right legs goes to the front. Or we can like, we can, um, make it always similar way to the dog. And then I have real, and we usually even walk with the same tempo, you know, like, like, like our rhythm of walking, our hands move the same way.

And, and then I realized that there are handlers who don't have that good body control. And they have very much, they always give the command in any possible moment for the dog. And they are changing their own walking style also constantly. And they are changing their hand movements constantly in that. And, and almost every time that I see those handlers struck like, like struggling with those problems, their dogs are also very insecure in the motion exercises. Yes, because they are all surprised. It's always surprised what is this exercise now, because dogs are not so good with listening the command itself. They are always connecting it with our movements, whether we want it or not. And then, and, and then, um, and even when we are teaching this exercise, we can help the dog in the beginning by giving the command ourself and stopping the movement, but we can even stop the same way and move the hand in the same way and in the same length and, and, and then I realized that, uh, sometimes when I try to help some handlers, because they have already had this issue and the dog has been coming so insecure that it was like really difficult to change that because, because, you know, the handler just kind of couldn't control herself. But I think that was something interesting. And it is exactly the most difficult exercise is of course, to sit, um, and, but yeah, yeah. So, so even, even this was something like surprising. I didn't think about this like 10 years ago so much, but now when I have been coaching people, I realized that it's sometimes really difficult for handlers to control the body. The moment you start coaching, it really opens the eyes. It's so good. It is. It's just so good. We did another, who knows how long, probably another four hours straight. Like you and I can talk forever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, but you know, like when you said that coaching is cool, coaching teaches us so much about ourselves as well. Like it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's like when you talk before that, when you write a book, you have to, you, you actually like, you start to understand why you are doing something different than somebody else. You have to, um, really analyze your own things and why somebody else is not succeeding now. And then you start to see like in the coach, you say, that's why it's not the fault, even the dog or something. It's just because you constantly do it differently. Yes. Talking about this actually really reminds me about something that we kind of never, we, we always have so much to talk about, but this is important.

I think, uh, um, to tell everybody, uh, you know, what, what, what are you up to right now? Is there a second book coming? I know you have the online course. So just, just tell, tell people what, what's going on on that aspect of, of teaching other handlers. Um, I think it's important. Um, um, um, like in the next month, actually, uh, like why I opened my new website, which is like miascogster.com. So what we are changing there, uh, we are bringing all the materials from my old website there, but however, so I'm going to open this kind of one-on-one coaching program that people can, um, like come to me, like, let's say, um, at the half year package. So I make a program for them that I plan a training program together with the handlers and their wishes and their goals. Um, and they can get like, uh, a few times in a month, um, advices from me. Mm-hmm . And then they also get the media library, like how I teach the exercises. So they can see also same time that they can go to watch how I teach the healing or how I teach the, you know, uh, retrieves and send away and so on and so on. So they can get also this one available and this I didn't have before, but of course there will be like, it's, it's limited number as we know. It better be. I mean, like, like this, and then the same, because the time is, I mean, depending how many people want that, but I have the same library basically available for like, like for those who don't, um, like get the private one-on-one coaching and for them, I can give like once in a month, one live session for our, for an hour where they can ask some questions, but that is more like, of course the time is limited depending how many people are coming. So not so, you know, I, I can ask, answer for so many questions as we have time, but, uh, this is something new and it's going to happen like in September. So that is something cool, something new, what was, what's going on. And yeah, I, I mean, that's the, and another thing what I'm also like looking at is because we have this problem that a lot of us people, people from Australia and, and, and many, many different countries, they wanted to buy the book, but of course that the shipping costs are super expensive to different countries. So I will also make the book like as an ebook available for those who come to the program. So they can also read that. Very cool. Yeah. I mean, they have to, if they're going to work with you, it just makes sense. I mean, it just makes sense. I think it's very cool. I think everybody that, um, you know, the, the kind of get mixed feeling about all the influencers and all that.

Um, but I appreciate everybody that has good credentials and accomplishments, like legit credentials and accomplishments and are teaching. Uh, I think that's really the way to go and that's the way to navigate around all the noise on social media. And that's kinda, I applaud Yanni for doing his helper, uh, thing and going with the young kids. And I know you are doing, and then like, I think, um, it's not all about the money really. It's, it's just, you cannot, I mean, just what you said, you cannot just do this for money. You, you do it cause you like to do it and, and you feel good about contributing, about giving back to people that want to be like me or to want to be, you know, and, and anyway, I think it's super important that people that have that knowledge one way or another to excite the rest of us, you know? Yeah. And, um, and I think it's also this, that like you said that when we like, like, when we like, for example, uh, when I, for example, was thinking, I, can I bring my dog to the championships? Because I think he's not like completely ready. And, and then there was like a mistake happened and he got like 93 points, but still like, overall, we didn't like, it wasn't like 69 points or something. Exactly. You see what I mean? Like, like there is still like, um, you can always see often like, like the, the, the, trainers and coaches who have real credentials and who know how to prepare the dog to come, come, but just instead of just cool videos in Instagram, you can see that they never fail completely. They can be something it's, it's, it's, it's normal. They can be something here, but it's something fixable for the next. Understanding, understanding that training evolution with your own dog, you know, to, to where. But it's not like, you know, that, that, uh, everything just like collapses and, and, and, you know, like this is not happening. So, so, um, that, that is always something that, uh, I'm actually, uh, for example, like I, I showed some highlights like in, in Instagram, for example, and the next video, I decided to put all the mistakes and point them out just for fun. Yeah. Like being a little bit like more transparent to people and say, Hey, here you can see like these, uh, these happened, that happened. And then, um, and, and, um, and a little bit of explanation, like, like, like, so that, that they also see that it's not just always rainbows and unicorns. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also that, it's actually a rocky road to get there. It, it, it is a rocky road to get there. And you, and, and, man, so many people are so quick to kind of quit on a dog because of

watching videos and, and, you know, YouTube and Instagram and, and it's like, Oh, I want to accomplish this right now. And it's like, it's a long, a long process, like, and they think that it's like, I mean, like how many years we make the perfect, how we built the perfect performance. It taking so many years there and every single dog, I'm, I'm sure that when, when the top 10 trainers, they call the competitions, they know for sure that they know their mistakes. Yes. They know it's going to be here a little bit, there a little bit, there a little bit. And then it depends on the date, like how badly something comes out, but still it usually becomes like very good at least, but, but still, so there will be, but they know that it's not so big deal. And I have noticed that sometimes like a young hand, they're like stressed a little, like, let's say, what I was talking about one, one lady, for example, and she, I saw her retrieves and they look phenomenal, good, like really talented. She's made so good work with the dog. And she was so stressed about that the dog takes the dumbbell, not behind the canines, but a little bit in the middle. And she was, I mean, not that she was overly stressed, but she was more like considering, Oh, should I now start to fix that somehow? Or so. And I'm like, if I would have that retrieve with my dog, I would be super happy. You see what I mean? It's not mentioned in the rule book exactly where the dumbbell has to be. And the dog was so powerful. And, and sometimes people call, and it's also important for them to hear. Also that's important to say that don't focus too much on that. Don't stress with this, because how can they know when they watch something, you know, from the Instagram and it looks like perfect there, but they don't know how many times the rock has done something worse, much worse in the training. We just don't publish that. I think it was a year ago or something. There was a, a super cool meme with Usain Bolt, the sprinter. He was, and I, I don't know exactly how it went. The saying, but it was like, this is the six seconds of success that took Yeah. Incredible amount of years and effort to make it happen. Yes. There is no shortcut. Yes. There is no shortcut for anything in the life. And, and, you know, and, and just like how Instagram makes things or, or Facebook or TikTok or whatever. So unreal that right today, there was, um, somebody wrote me that you, you seem to be always so happy. Is it just like, are you never like sad or something in your real life that I, I, you seem to have this kind of aura or, or how you pronounce it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Everything is going to be okay. And, and you are always so positive. And I'm like, you, I just don't publish in Instagram the moments when I'm like 10th of the times losing my hairbrush somewhere, because I don't know where the hell is my hairbrush. And I'm shouting like, where the fuck is the fucking hairbrush again? And there is nobody else in this house who is losing it except me. And then I'm like, Oh, here it is. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like me looking for my coffee cups. Yeah. Or whatever, you know, because I keep on looking for everything. So I'm like, I'm, I'm emotional. I'm impulsive. I have like low self-control. I keep on losing myself constantly. And I keep on like getting in one moment, super pissed about something. And then in the 10 seconds, I'm like, Oh, I'm happy again, you know? And right now I'm considering of doing a video when I'm smashing our television to pieces, posting it in somewhere. And I don't know because, you know, I can't tell what happened to it originally, but it's a little bit broken. No. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we, we are, we are still normal people. I mean, all kinds of crazy things happen, but, but yeah, but yeah, that there we go. And the same is in the dog training. And I was asked a question in radio and it came so quickly. I didn't have time to think about. And it was like for, you know, normal people by listening to that program. And they asked like, do you ever lose your control with dogs? Like, do you ever lose your self-control? Are you ever angry to the dog? And I'm like, well, do you want to know? I mean, like, it's like, do you ever lose your self-control with any people? Or are you always perfect? Right. And then it was, and I was like, and then I was something like mumbling something stupid. They're like, well, in a normal life, I think I lose it even more often than in the training, because in the training, I'm so, I'm prepared my dogs and we have the connection. No, I mean, it's even important for the dog to, to see, oh, Ivan's unhappy about it. He, he, he actually is unhappy about it. Like, it's different if we really become this, like, like hating the dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very different, that, that has nothing to do, but it's part of the whole interaction sometimes to be like, good, what are you doing? Like, like why, you know, like it's normal. It's the, it's part of the, the, the good training. And, and one good example is this, and now again, people can hate me for this. So for some reason, when I, I want to, sometimes I, I'm a dog person, but I also have my other life.

And sometimes I like to drive with Lamborghini and I like to put like really cool clothes on and I like to look like a movie star. Okay. It's a, sometimes I like to, it's, it's cool, you know? So I go somewhere out and I have like really nice clothes on. And exactly when I have those clothes on, my dogs have like intense desire to come to sniff on me, to slime on me, to, you know, to, to chomp on me. Like, oh, she has this super extensive dress right now. And I need to come. And I'm like, no, don't come close to me. Stay there. And then they are like, but I really, really, really, really want to come. And I'm like, no, you don't come. Yes. You know, and I have this struggle. So, and, and, and now my dogs, my younger dog has learned, you know, that when I have like really nice clothes, I'm like, hey, don't do that. He's like, oh, mama is now angry. I better to stay there. I'm like, super. You get the bone. Good boy. Do something else. You know, something else, whatever. But don't come close. But however, so, yeah. And I haven't, okay. I agree. I didn't train my dog so perfectly. I should have trained him better before. But they also learn in this way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I, it makes them also more resilient. Like, like, you know. If you have to give an advice to, to anybody, because I know there is a lot of people, like a lot of trainers that are looking up to you. Like, any simple advice that comes to mind as far as training, as far as, you know. Do you have a, something like that that just comes on top of your head right now? What would you tell people? Oh, I'm bad in saying something, the most important thing, but I can tell, like, maybe the third or the fourth most important thing. Let's go. What just pops to my mind. I would say, let's go. So, it's this. Just, like, forget what the people are, like, around you. So, really, when you are training your dog, keep your focus in your dog and be as real as you can. Show emotions and don't be ashamed. Don't be ashamed. Don't be afraid of doing mistakes, being too much. Because, because that's blocking you to show, like, like, like the important emotions. And dog training is so much about emotional communication. It's not like, it's not just that you are teaching tricks for the dog. It's about how you communicate. And you have to be able to be, like, real and show those things. And if you are all the time thinking what somebody is thinking about you, if you look ridiculous, if you do mistakes, if you do mistakes, you can always correct them. It's not a big deal. I mean, everybody does them. Then we fix them. And don't try to do it perfectly.

Just try to do it the best you can do it. But I cannot give, like, you know, one thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, no, no, no. That's like, that's a very, very good, good, good advice. It's kind of don't, don't, don't freeze. Don't, you know, like, be yourself. The dog can recognize it, of course. Yeah, and then also I think is that even it would go wrong, don't freeze. Even always do something. Yeah. Do something. Show the way. If the dog does something wrong, just help him in that situation. Because when the handlers start freezing and start to think, what should I now do? Then the train already has gone. And the dog realizes that you are insecure. And dogs always want to work with a confident handler. Even your decision would be wrong, but just react. And especially, yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially when something goes wrong and you freeze. You kind of amplify the problem instead of working with it, right? I think, I think the most important, I think that's the reason why many handlers, good handlers, good dog handlers are rather impulsive. Like, they are fast in their reactions. They don't freeze. They are like, they do before they think. When they learn more about dog training, they learn to do the right actions, you know? And some, of course, are natural talent and so on. But, but I think the most important is always to do something. Do always decisions. I think the worst is always not doing the decision what to do and just freeze. So that is, I think, maybe something. We did another big one. I hope that everybody that is part of the sport shares their opinions. Because, because, again, I think collectively we need to, we need to stay together and we need to, you know, it's an amazing sport. Like, I mean, and, and we have to preserve it and we have to move forward. It's, it's, it's, I hope it, it doesn't end. Divide people. People predict in 10 years or five years there will be no more IGP. Or we get so much stuck into this animosity between each other to where we, we gotta accept that we have different ideas. And, and I think this is like, when you say that we should unite, we shouldn't divide and so on. And this podcast, what we now talk about, this could easily divide people. Because docs are emotional thing. And, and the docs performances are emotional thing. And now we haven't been talking only about our own docs performances, but we specifically took two top handlers, docs, and watched their videos. And we, we evaluated their performances. And we were talking about should they have got like excellent or very good or whatsoever. And, and so on. And I think that can be also taken in a bad way.

I know. Uh, which. Hopefully that's not the case. Not meant to be. Good point. Yeah. Because we, we, we eventually we would like to talk about, uh, how to bring the sports forward. And, and, and you wanted to talk about very much about this guarding, uh, and should be punched out docs who are guarding, like depending on their position. And I was talking about like, like the transition phases or emotional state or, or power in the reattacks or whatsoever it is. And so on. But also, um, but I think I'm also open for this kind of conversations about my dog. I understand that there are also different opinions about it. And so. Yeah. The same. I feel the same. Feel free to, uh, kill my dogs and their performances in the internet as well. However, breaking down the performances kind of reminded me of, of, I mean, how many times you and I would sit down and, and watch videos like this and talk about it in private. So we ended up doing this. Now we made it publicly. We made it publicly. And that's really reminds me of pretty much every, every time you and I are together, we end up in, and it's always cool because it's productive. Like, I think we both look at things and make notes and I adjust, and I'm sure you take some considerations and, and, and that's what's about. It's not a, oh, I don't like you anymore or whatever. It's like. I mean, I understand your point. I, it doesn't mean that like, like, for example, I haven't been thinking about it before that somebody could even think it on that way, because for me, teaching a dog to park on this side or that side, or even behind the helper has been just like a preference. We chose to do because somebody originally wanted that. And I didn't think it so deeply how somebody else could evaluate it or interpret it. And now if I hear that, I'm like, okay, I can easily change that. It's not a question of honor for me. So if, if it should be changed, we got to decide. That's the point. Anyway. Yeah. And I, and I, I agree. It can be changed and then I can change, you know, it's not a big deal. Or we don't change it and we, but we agree on something. We got to agree on something. That's the point. Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's, it's interesting. And so, okay. Thank you very, very much. It was amazing. It's always super cool talking. I wish it was in person, but thank you Mia. And thanks everybody. Very curious to hear what everybody thinks about the conversation. I know the IGP community have opinions. Don't be shy. See, we can talk about it. We should talk about it. So again, thank you. Time to go. Thank you so much. And do something else, Mia. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.