E382: 감정이 풍부하다는 것은 무슨 뜻일까?

And the conference absolutely is going to be excellent. But I want to drill a little more into just what we mean when we say, you know, dogs with big feelings. So what kind of feelings are we talking about here? Maybe what qualifies as big to you guys? Kim, do you want to start us out? Yeah, sure. I've actually been thinking about this a lot because my two girl collies have big feelings in different ways. So my five-year-old Jane has the very classic herding dog big feelings. So anything that moves, she would have a big reaction to dogs, those kinds of things. And it's kind of that big blow up, which I don't get anymore, but I used to. My eight-month-old Collie, I actually ended up with her because I was helping to raise the litter. And we saw as a baby puppy that she had some sensitivities and big feelings. And the breeder asked me to take her home and raise her to prepare her for a home as a puppy with big feelings. Because my husband did not want another dog. And so now we have five dogs and she's with me. But with her, Sunday, she's, I would say she's less big feelings and more just emotional. She kind of just has big emotions. She gets very excited very easily. She's very sassy, playful. And when I see her big feelings, it comes out as even bigger than that. So, but not as a reaction, more of like just barking and sharing those feelings. So I'm kind of thinking that I would look at the baseline of that particular dog's overall emotions and feelings. And then a big feeling would be something that derives from that. It's either bigger in excitement or bigger in, you know, fear or concern or whatever it might be. So where Sunday might be all like sassy and playful. And to her, that's just a normal baseline of her feelings. If that were my old man, Collie acting that way, I'd be like, wow, you got some big feelings today. So I think it kind of depends on their, um, the baseline. And I also think it's important to consider that sometimes big feelings aren't big reactions at all. Um, and it might just be displacement behaviors or, um, you know, I see like a lot of scratching or yawning or, you know, those are big feelings as well. I don't think they get as much attention because they don't bother us humans as much. So if my dog is barking and lunging, that's something that might be embarrassing for me. And I want to change that. But if my dog is just, you know, constantly scratching or something like that, I might not be so aware of their big feelings. Um, so yeah, I think that's kind of where I'm going right now when I, it comes to my thoughts on big feelings. Awesome. Patriot?

Um, for me, I think it in part has to do with the interpretation of, um, the human with the dog, right? Because like things that other people would look at some of my dogs in certain situations and be like, holy Hannah, like what is happening? And I'm like, oh yeah, no, no big deal. It's perfectly fine because I can man, cause I've had a lot of dogs. I've had a lot of super high drive edgy dogs and I'm really relatively comfortable that, but there are obviously times when it's starting to head to a point where it's no longer functional, whether it's in life or in competition training. And then for me, I have to say, oh, okay, this is a little bit too big. Um, but what's too big for me is not necessarily, you know, or what is fine for me for someone else might completely rattle them. And they're like, oh, this is too much. So I think in part, it's like, are you able to handle or manage what the dog is presenting to you? Um, so I think, uh, I think that makes a definition, at least from my perspective, kind of relatively personal, uh, because I think every different people are going to have a different take on different, um, dogs. And I've had both I've had, I'm a dog that actually literally wasn't right wired. Right. And would like easily go over the cliff. And it was like super crazy hard to get them back. And I've also had a dog that, um, has big feelings and is just standing there like, I'm going to die right now and I can't possibly continue on. Um, but so anyway, um, I just think it's somewhat dependent on the team per se. I like kind of considering it from that angle and kind of thinking about that piece of it. I think a lot of the times we don't talk about that. We only kind of talk about the dog piece of it. So can I add some interesting, um, you know, perspectives to that. Amy? Um, so, so from looking at the, the term big feelings, I, I don't know if people know where it comes from. It comes from the toddler world. Uh, it comes from parenting and it's usually thought of at least in that world as, you know, when toddlers start to have big feelings, how does that affect everything around them and us and, and, and their world and in, and why they'd be labeled big. It's not just having a feeling. It doesn't make it a big feeling. Just, just being in an emotional state doesn't qualify, you know, for it being big. Why are we calling them big? And it's because they become difficult to manage or are overwhelming to the, to the being that's having them. So if a toddler is having a big feeling, it comes up unbidden. It comes up very, very quickly. And, and it's hard for them to be experiencing it.

It's overwhelming to their decision-making processes. Right. So, so when dogs are having big feelings, I'm thinking of whichever valence, whether they're highly excited, wonderful thing, you know, like I enjoy it feelings or feelings of fear and anger and all the stuff that's difficult. I would, I, the line I would have for that would be, is it really difficult for this dog to manage having this feeling? Is it overwhelming to them? Right. And that means I have something to do. I've got to step in or I've got to help or I've got to, you know, just, just having a high amount of an emotion. If you can, if you can handle it well, and it's not overwhelming you and it's not difficult for you to make decisions around it, that, that to me doesn't, doesn't, you know, doesn't mean I have to intervene on it or that you need help. And that would, I think be fairly optimal. A large amount of feeling that you can handle very well is fairly ideal, right. In certain circumstances. So that's sort of where I would put that line. Is it, is it overwhelming to you or is it, is it something you can experience pretty easily? I'm actually still stuck with what Kim said about, is it big feelings or an emotional dog? I mean, that's, that actually clarifies in my own head, something I've been thinking about a lot because there is this image in society of what a dog is supposed to look like and it's calm. So it's not that unusual for a person to say to me, I'll say, well, does your dog have trouble with other dogs like on a leash? And they'll go something like, well, yeah, if another dog comes right up in her face, she'll snark. And that's not like, yeah, like to me, that doesn't register. Um, but it gets to the idea of what do people expect a dog to be generic dog and generic dog has almost no emotions whatsoever. Like it's allowed to get a little bit happy when you come home, but generic good dog has, I think in the minds of many bled all of the personality out of the dog. And then those of us who choose dogs who are pretty temperamental by breed, by breeding, by nature, I'm sure a lot of people would look at my, both of my dogs, my Terry and my Belgian and say they're reactive dogs because they do react in a big way to what happens around them. But then as Petra said, is that a problem for me? No, I just think it's who they are. Or as Amy said, are they unable to function with their emotions? No, they're fine. They get over it. But if you just look at it as a moment in time, I think most people would find it overwhelming and maybe in the Belgian's case, scary, in the Terrier's case, just a case, just intense.

And yet I would not say that either one of them actually has a problem and I don't have a problem. So as Petra said, you know, how does the owner feel about it? I'm just, I just think it's quite normal. And so I'm actually sitting here working through my own personal epiphany as I put all of these statements together because it kind of explains in my own mind a lot of what I hear people out there saying in the world where I'm looking at situations being puzzled about why they're concerned and they're looking at the situation as if this is just a terrible thing and has to be solved. So I have nothing interesting to add. I just, I just want to say that working through all of those prior statements and sort of integrating them in my own head really does clarify for me the challenge of definitions. And do you know, when you're talking about an adjective and big is an adjective. So big feelings, as opposed to what? Small feelings, normal feelings, abnormal. Anytime you're talking about an adjective, it has to have a comparison reference point. It must. There's no other way to have an adjective. And it's just bringing home to me why we struggle so much to talk about things like how do we label? What is a label? What is reactive? What is big feelings? So there's my not very helpful contribution. But anyway, what's going on in my head? I think that was a super interesting contribution and gives lots of additional ways to kind of pull some of that together. But I think that leads really nicely into kind of what I want to talk about next, which is, you know, we kind of all, all of you kind of mentioned in there, you know, is it problematic and looking at that piece. So when we're talking about the lens of a sports dog, right, are our big feelings kind of par for the course? Are we talking about something that's like problematic and we need to figure out how to deal with big feelings so we can have a successful sports dog? Are they beneficial? Like, how do we want to weigh into all that? Patriot, do you want to start us off? So I think Amy's definition kind of really was perfect because it's basically like, is the big feeling problematic in the sense that can my dog now not work, right? Like, so, and then I need to address this immediately because I can't just keep going forward, right? So I, so for example, if I take one of my dogs and I want them to be fairly aroused and I want them to be happy and I teach my dogs to be bossy and pushy and cocky and confident, right? But then if all of a sudden Zaina starts screaming at me, running in, biting my arm and looking

at the food, like, give me my reinforcer now, well, that's kind of a problem. So I have to find that balance, right? Like, where is that line where it's going to push the dog on over or under? Like with zeal, if he felt like he was, like, it was too challenging, he would just stand there during the headlights, could not possibly do a single thing. So in those cases, it's problematic. It's just a matter of, from my perspective, I'm like, see, I don't get too caught up emotionally. And I, I, I know that's kind of not typical, but I just don't, because I feel like then I'm not going to be, first, I have to be the anchor. And second, I have to solve the problem. And the only way I can solve the problem is if I step back and I'm objected. Why did my, why did this just happen? Right? Oh yeah. Whoopsie. I, you know, I held Zesty back and said, ready, ready, ready. And then threw his dumbbell and then he screamed like a lunatic. Well, yeah, maybe I shouldn't do that. That was not the best idea. Um, so yeah, I think it's good. It's problematic when it emotionally and mentally, it interferes with their ability to, you know, to learn and to function. Amy? Well, for many, but not all of the sports that we, that we do with them, we, we want them to have a decent amount of arousal, right? They have to be up and energetic enough to do the thing, not all the sports, but a lot of the sports. And so we have to be thinking about this because you, I'm not certain that it's possible to have arousal without an emotion. It's not just a physiological energy that like allows you to trot or something. Arousal is, um, enthusiasm. Arousal is excitement. Arousal is I I'm, I'm in it. I want to do this. This is great. I have a good feeling about this. Um, and certainly in, in at least the literature that I've been digging into about big feelings, those are, those are linked together. If you, you can have, you know, arousal in the good way, in the positive feelings or arousal in the bad way and the negative feelings, but it's still arousal. And so we want arousal and therefore we want that to be paired with the good feelings that come with that, you know, for our sport. So we're going to have to be flirting with big feelings all the time because we want somewhat big arousal. Right. And so the, the line for me, as I said, would be, can you think, are you thinking well through this? And it's our job to shepherd them through being able to do that. If we try to cause a lot of arousal thinking that that's maybe bringing up motivation or bringing up something nebulous that we haven't defined.

Um, we can get ourselves right into, I can't think at all during this sport or during this performance. Um, and I think people will sometimes try to jack a dog up and get them up, up, up before emphasizing the clarity. If you emphasize the clarity and emphasize the, you know, how to do this and how to feel safe doing this and how to lightly enjoy doing this now, how to moderately enjoy doing this. And then, and then all of the clarity is there. It's not so overwhelming to have your emotions go higher than because you're still doing something that's very clear to you. Um, not all sports have all the big feelings behind them. I don't know that nose work always does. You know, I don't know that, I don't know if tracking does, I don't know if sports that involve a lot of sniffing would have a lot of big feelings because those feelings wouldn't be overwhelming. Someone else can, can tell me different. Um, but if we want a lot of fast movement and a lot of quick decisions and a lot of, you know, diving for reinforcement, um, this is something we absolutely have to wrestle with. And, and because we want a pretty high level of activation and arousal, we should know that feelings are going to come along with that. We're not going to just have blank space or arousal with no opinion, no feeling whatsoever in it. Those, those are tied together. So, um, we, we should not think of them as separate and deal with the feelings that are part of our, the arousal of our sport right from the get-go. I think it's really interesting to think about that just because, um, like you said, we kind of have to flirt with it, right? Like we kind of need that little bit of activation and that opt-in and that enthusiasm. And we want all of that. And also it's so easy to go too far. It's so easy to jack them up too far and like lose the control, you know? Well, and we're sort of out of order with that, with that sense. When I was new enough to agility, I was worried now, you know, we're even noting that my dog was doing it, you know, kind of slowly and sort of like doing the things I suggested and, and she was doing them. And I remember maybe complaining about it or mentioning, no, I, I know what I, where's the speed I want, you know? And my, my teacher at the time was like, no, speed comes from the confidence. She's following everything that you've asked. Let her get confident. And sure enough, as soon as the task is well understood, then they can, they're freer to, to bring speed into things. So that's just one example. It's not exactly all the big feelings, but it, there's a, there's a, uh, a tendency to want

to go for something big early as if big has to be part of the performance all the time. Otherwise it won't be there for you later as if perfunctory is permanent. Um, but you know, there's, there's a process for all the learning and, and knowing all those pieces is very helpful. And of course there are the dogs who come with all the big feelings and the speed right from the start. And then you have to figure out how to get them to think. But, uh, Denise, you want to take it from there? Yeah, there's, there's a lot to this because it does seem that if a dog has one big feeling, they have many big feelings. So it's really the arousal pushing. It's not like you have a dog who only tends to be angry or only tends to move a lot or only tends to be fearful. It just seems that some dogs and maybe some people too, that's why big feelings is such a great definition because it does seem that it comes as a package. It's something that's with the dog and for better or worse, depending on, you know, how you want to look at it. We do need a degree of, we need desire in our sport. The way we get desire is by tying something the dog cares about a lot to something we care about. And a lot of the dog caring about it a lot is innate. So you want a dog with a lot of food drive. What does that mean? The dog cares a lot about food. What does that mean? It means they have big feelings about whether or not they get food. And it's pretty hard to separate those out. It also gets to the reality that there aren't too many unicorn dogs. They are out there, but it can be very challenging to find a dog who's kind of the perfect, well-behaved pet who gets along with everybody and is nice with children and doesn't chase the cat and also get a dog who's exceptionally good at dog sports. I'm not saying it doesn't exist because every time I say something like this, someone tells me how they have that dog. And I admire that greatly, and I would like to take that dog from you. But as the norm, as the typical thing that most of us experience, they're sort of a scale. And the better the dog is a pet, the more it enjoys sleeping, the less it seems to enjoy doing things we want to do. And the reverse is also true. So there's a little bit of pick your poison here, or maybe it's about celebrating what you have and trying to make the most of it rather than comparing it, you know, on individual elements rather than as a whole package. It's probably a more fair way to look at our dogs. I like thinking about drive as just something the dog cares a lot about.

Like, I think that's a really useful framing of like, what we mean when we say that, right? It's a really functional definition. Interesting way to think about it. Kim? Well, I mean, I agree with everything that was said as far as big feelings being potentially problematic when we're talking about sports dogs. So I do think at the same sense, there are some big benefits that we can look at. And for me, I find that with my big feelings dogs, when it comes to preparing for sports, I have a significantly better relationship with them because I have focused on these big feelings. I've helped them work through it. And I find that then going into the ring with them, we have a bit more of a connection. I also find that when I'm working on these big feelings, I'm able to then practice my sports skills or practice my mechanics for my sports skills. So like I said, I'm a certified control and leash instructor. So if I'm working on a pattern or something, I could work on teaching my dog her location specific markers, or I could work on, you know, a food lure or something like that. So I'm working on the foundations that I need for my sports skills, but on, you know, behaviors that I'm not actually going to be doing in the ring. Um, so I think perhaps I could look at the benefits of having that big feelings dog in helping us down the road when it comes to competing in sports with them. I like that. And I think that kind of pulls together some of what everybody else was saying about, um, you know, beneficial versus problematic and some of the pieces in there. Um, okay. So let's talk about those moments when we are in it. Right. And when dealing with big feelings, I think a lot of the time, um, sometimes we change the feeling, right? Like it's a big feeling and it's a problematic, big feeling, and we need to decide, is this a thing we're going to try and work on? Is it something we just need to manage? Like digging into all of that. Right. So looking at the kind of in the moment situation first, if you catch yourself in a moment with a dog who is having bigger feelings than you anticipated kind of about that scenario, um, how do you handle it? What do you do? Amy, you want to start us off? I can tell you what I do. I mean, I, I try to organize it into two broad things that I want people to be thinking about doing. And one is, can I get my dog's mind on something else right now? Right. Uh, I'm not saying that's always possible, but I'm going to be thinking about it immediately and to be able to do things like that, you need to do a bit of practicing.

So you can't expect an entirely novice dog who's not used to working with you. Who's having a very big feeling about something all consuming is just going to be able to switch to another thing you have to offer. But I can lay in that, that possibility for preparing myself and my dog for when these things might happen. If we're talking about sports, we can, we can prepare that things might get to be bigger than we meant. So, you know, do I have a redirection object? Do I have something else you also really value and could turn to, um, really quickly to kind of, it's like changing the channel on the new movie. You know, I need to get you to, to think new thoughts. They might be just as intense, but I can at least redirect that intensity to something else. Um, and if I, if I can't do that, or as I'm doing that, um, I want to be thinking about distance. I, and distance has, has, you know, more than one definition. It's usually physical distance, but it, you know, it might, it might be represented by, you know, changing what they can see, getting behind something might be enough distance, but either way, I want to sort of reduce the proximity, reduce the intensity of whatever it is that is causing that. Right. And if I'm the one that's causing that with my very big own feelings or my very big thing I just had to offer, right. I can get them distance from that too. Metaphorically by not doing that. Now, like realizing I've opened a door, I swung it wide and I, you know, I can't, you know, I got some real big coming back in. Um, I can change the subject. So if you, if you are out there and you're thinking, I don't know that I can do that. Putting some attention toward being able to change the subject is very kind of proactively helpful to you, you know, finding and developing other things. Your dog likes a lot that you can layer in early to teach them to switch between. So that if you've gotten really big on one thing, you've gotten really, really big on the toy, or Denise can talk about this really, really big on the bite. Is there anything else I can also give you to get you off that picture? And then from there, start to ratchet you back down. Or, you know, force comes to us. I'm going to leave the, leave the scenario and go find something else to do. That's calming like, like a scatter or some, some way to get them sniffing. But, but, um, there are as many versions of what to do as there are situations. So if you think about it in two ways of, can I, can I redirect to something else that can help me ratchet down and, and, or can I consider the distance or reducing the intensity so I

can get my dog, but kind of back in that thinking space. That's how I would start. Denise. So I tend to think in terms of positive valence or negative valence emotion, uh, and how I approach it is a function of that. So if a dog is feeling fear, then that would be a negative valence emotion under all circumstances. I cannot think of any circumstance under which I want my dog to be afraid. Um, and so then I am going to immediately, it doesn't matter what I'm doing. If I have any control over the circumstance, I'm going to put a stop to that. So as Amy said, distance is generally your friend, whether that is, uh, reducing visual or whatever. I don't want my dog experiencing fearful, uh, emotions and I'll go to some trouble. Um, I'm not going to wait and see. I generally just want it to stop. I mean, unless it's like a young puppy who sees a balloon for the first time and kind of spooks. Cause in that case, I know perfectly well that the balloon isn't going to hurt them. Um, and that there's a really good chance that they'll just have the opportunity to recover on their own. But, um, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about things where the dog, um, is feeling threatened and it's not likely to just be like, Oh, Oh, it's just a balloon. You know, um, a positive valence emotion. I have more flexibility. So I have the option of trying to redirect it into something I care about. Um, I have the option to wear it down with satiation. I just let the dog run its course. You know, it's the first time the dog has been in a certain area and they've lost their mind. And I know if I just leave them alone, they'll work it out because they'll get bored with it. I have the option of interrupting it frequently to cut the frequency and intensity. So an example, I took my dog. He, uh, struggles with the, um, lure of the female. So we go to a new place and he knows there have been girl dogs in particular, and they have peed there. So now what I do is I intentionally take him places where I know, and it's very easy. All you have to do is go to a dog friendly trail and hang out near the front of the trail. I promise you so many dogs have peed there. You don't even know how you can see the pee on the ground, even when you can't see the dog. So today I took him to exactly such a place in the parking area where I had excellent sight lines. And, um, I took him, oh, I don't know, five feet from a pole on leash, waited for attention and sent him to sniff the pole. So the first part of that's irrelevant for this conversation. The second part is what happens when he gets to the pole with the girl pee.

Is it a positive or a negative valence emotion? It's positive. It's curiosity. It's a desire to meet whoever owns that pee. If I let him satiate, I'm going to have problems long-term. Now, some dogs that wouldn't be the case, but I know my dog. So what I do instead is every 10 seconds or so I interrupt. So what A.B. was saying is having something the dog will switch to. So in his case, it's a toy. I interrupt frequently. And the reason I do that is because if I let him stay with it, he gets more and more obsessive, more and more grounded in. I fall more and more off the radar. I need to stay on the radar. And the way I do that is constantly interrupting what he's interested in. So I use the switch cue. I tighten the leash. So he has no choice. He cannot continue to proceed. If I have to, I put some pressure on the leash. He's unable to sniff because I pulled him in and chop it. He turns back to me. We play with the toy. Now, it doesn't actually go that way because he is very well versed on his switch cue. And generally, if I say switch, he just does. He doesn't even know he's doing it. We play for five seconds. I immediately say, OK, out, get ready, go back. And I keep sending him back into that same place because what I'm doing is lowering the intensity of the emotion. The curiosity is going down, but I don't let him satiate because if I do that, I'm completely outside the picture. So you have some pre-mat going on here, right? So if you do what I want, come back and switch, which is fun anyway, and then get back into position, I'll send you back. And then what happens after four, five, six, 113 repetitions, when I say, OK, you can go back and sniff again, he doesn't. He simply turns around and looks at me like, why would I want to sniff a stupid pole? He does that. And I have a higher value rewarder than the switch toy. The switch toy is a tug. He prefers a ball. So now he chooses on his own not to go back. I say, that's excellent. Get ready. And I throw his ball. So that would be a kind of an example of a sequence that I go through with my own dog when it's a positive valence emotion. It's super interesting to think about and to work through. And there's so many interesting pieces in there, especially around, you know, knowing your own dog and kind of the importance that that kind of plays in your decision making and plan making process. Some things to think about. Kim? So I agree with Amy and Denise that distance would be the first thing I'm going to, you know, do if I have a dog who has some big feelings. I am playing around with my five-year-old Jane.

Sometimes I allow her to see if she can work through a big feeling. So she tends to have a very big reaction and then a super quick recovery. So I allow her the opportunity to work through it. And I would say probably 100% success. She has been able to work through it and reorient to me. At this point, she's a five-year-old dog who's we've been working on this for a long time. I wouldn't do this with my eight-month-old. In most cases, I need to give her distance before I allow her to start working through it on her own. So I think that really depends on the individual dog. Once I've done that, then I will often start a conversation with the dog. So, you know, would you like to play the look at that game? Can you point out the trigger to me? And we'll talk about it, literally. If the dog can't do that, I'll say, can you take a treat? You know, okay, so can we take a treat over here? Can we play a pattern? If I'm having no success with those, of course, I'll add more distance. And I really like to use a snuffle or something on the ground that's going to lower my dog's arousal, so lower her head, get her snuffling. But all of these are things that I've practiced with this dog prior, you know, so that a treat scatter, if I say scatter and I toss treats in the grass, they're going to do that snuffle. If I don't have a dog with these skill sets that I'm talking about, then I'm just getting out of there. I'm just getting out of the situation and, you know, evaluating what happened and then work on what I can do to help my dog in that, you know, well, not in that situation, but in an easier situation in the future. So I would say that's kind of the approach I would take. And it really depends on the individual dog. I think it's really interesting because all three of you kind of talked about the importance of having some of those foundation skills on board. And I think a lot of the times, you know, and anybody who wants to respond to me can, but a lot of times in dog sports, especially, we think so much about our sports specific skills. And we don't think about building in these foundation skills so that when that inevitable moment happens, when our sport has become so exciting and so motivating and our dog cares so much about the things, that big feeling do kind of inevitably come out. You know, we have something to fall back on. And I just think it's, you know, each of you have hit on it in a slightly different way and just kind of like calling that out and talking about it a little bit. That's an interesting thing. Patriot, I think I haven't given you a chance to. Okay.

Um, so I think what everybody that talked so far had a specific strategy, right? And I think that's what people don't have because all of a sudden it happens and they're like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And, you know, and then all those human emotions, like, I don't know what to do. I'm embarrassed. I'm a failure. I'm on and on and on. Right. And so, because they don't have a strategy. Uh, so, and I also think, and they mentioned this, right? Like dog dependent. I know my dog, like a strategy that I use for one dog might not work for another dog. Right. So you have to just, um, I think just look at it as more like you would any other training problem. Like what are some different solutions that I can try, try them. Um, if it doesn't work, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, just like try something else. Right. So like with zeal, any type of pressure, especially if I left him, he would just panic. So I had, I knew what the problem was. Pressure equals panic. Right. So I had to, there was no, um, buddy out there saying, well, if your dog encounters this situation, do that. So I tried like a wide, vast array of different things until I, you know, came upon a solution. Right. So I think, um, it's super helpful for people to say, oh, okay. Like these are all some really good suggestions, write a list, try them out. Um, and don't, if it, like I said, if it doesn't work, don't freak out. If it didn't go as well as you wanted, again, don't freak out. Um, just try something different next time. Um, I think if you're just in the moment and you are panicking, the best solution is what everybody said, get out of there, right? Get out of there. Um, and then, you know, again, get yourself calmed down and then try to come up with a solution or a plan. Um, yeah, it's not just the dog who needs the foundation skills, right? We also need to have a plan and like spend some time pre-thinking so that we're not totally caught out, you know, in a moment. Um, okay. So all of you started to talk a little bit about kind of what you do after the fact, but, um, let's talk about that just a little bit more. So once you've kind of gotten past that in the moment, big reaction, you know, your dog's back in the car, your dog's back home in their crate. How do you start thinking about things longer term? How do you kind of create a plan for the future for, um, setting yourself up for success with your, hopefully your future sports dog, Denise? So I go through like my, um, my personal trauma cycle. So it looks like this. Oh my God, this is the end. So, and these all last for different periods of time.

So feel free to insert whatever sounds right. That's the first one. Second, this is terrible and embarrassing. Okay. Third. Oh, I did sort of observe this one little glimmer of not so terrible. Fourth. Okay. That glimmer could be used and grown by fill in whatever training thing interests me. I don't know how many steps there are, but, and, and for me goes pretty fast, but the last one is usually seriously. Oh, I'm glad that happened because it showed me, look, I've, I've had several things happen in trial. Now I'm not going to go through all of them. Okay. I'll tell you one, the worst one, 12 years old. I'm in a show with a Sheltie leaves the ring. Cause that was scary back then. But anyway, leaves the ring won't come runs through all the rings at the trial and has to be caught. I was 12. I still remember that. I'm 55. So that gives you some idea that kind of trauma. Right. But, um, what, if nothing else is in my head is I really would rather have the bad things happen outside of competition. So I always kind of go back to that. Like, did anyone get hurt? No. Rarely do people get hurt. Did it happen in competition? So that when I'm 97, I'm still going to be thinking about it. No. So anything in between isn't so terrible, right? Like this is an opportunity to feel even more confident that when I go into trial, I know I have worked through this. That doesn't mean things don't go wrong in events. They do. But it also means that I'm not guessing about whether or not my dog has an issue with balloons, dog pee, whatever it is. And so then I tend to take that and look for the small pieces that I might be able to pull out the threads and start actually addressing it. And once I start that, usually that shows me more problems that I didn't know I had. So then I can start pulling those pieces. But by then I'm on a positive cycle rather than the doomsday thing. Um, and that I find long-term makes my training much, much stronger and just frankly makes me a better trainer for going through it. I like that you end with, uh, such a positive perspective. I don't know that we all get there, but, um, but I think it's a good, it's a good aspiration to end the kind of that positive balance in your own head. Uh, Kim. Yeah, I'm glad I'm not the only one who goes through all those emotions or big feelings after, um, a big event or big reaction. So I guess I'm going to go home and I'm going to evaluate things as well. Um, if my dog does something completely out of the blue, um, I'm going to evaluate, you know, should I bring my dog to the vet? Um, or should I have, you know, something looked at?

So I think that's something to always consider, uh, before you look at everything else. And then otherwise I'm going to just evaluate the antecedents and what potentially caused my dog to have those big feelings in that situation. Um, and then just get to work breaking things down. So I'm going to work on building more relaxation for my dog. So that might be, you know, teaching him to relax on a mat or take a deep breath or whatever it might mean, um, I'm going to give myself and my dog more skills and more tools to start applying to the real world. But again, I'm doing this in the comfort of at home where there's no big feelings involved whatsoever. Um, and then I'm just going to start generalizing those again. So it's, it's like anything. I'm just going to go home and work on things once again and build that skill set up until I feel confident with it. And then I'm going to start to proof it and generalize it. Um, and I think even when it comes to working through our big feelings, we can do that with our management skills and our, um, anything we can do to help our dog feel more comfortable. So. I don't know if I have anything that much more to add what they haven't already said. Basically I look at, uh, you know, I look at, um, how can I prevent that from happening again? So what caused it, what can I do, um, to intervene moving forward? Right. Because that puts me in control and it gives me options. Um, I also, what I do now with every puppy is I put in, um, calming cues and calming behaviors, like right. As soon as I start training them when they're, you know, when they're puppies and as they grow. Um, and I, so I put in calming cues and behaviors and I put in cues and certain things that, um, bring arousal up. So I ha even if at that moment you may say, well, you know, that dog is kind of in the middle. Um, I still want them in my back pocket. Cause I know that a lot of times down the road, things might crop up. So they're already, um, kind of there for me to, um, have, should I need them? Um, and then it's, yeah, just break everything down into smaller pieces. Right. But I think really at the end of the day, it's why did it happen? The why is super important, right? Cause I could have made my dog too aroused. I could have just tugged like a maniac or got them too crazy or something could have had, my dog could be confused. Something in the environment could have happened. So I need to figure out why, and then I can pull that piece out, um, and work on that piece in isolation. Amy. I think that, yeah, I totally agree with that.

And I think that a lot of times we can, uh, make a problem where a problem didn't exist by over, over concluding about something that happened to Doug, you know, barks at its first stranger. And now we're certain we have to work on strangers, you know, um, you know, Doug freaks out about the thing, especially in adolescence. And we start making a nine point plan to, to therapize that thing. And I, uh, I want to caution people against that. Um, because I, I want you, it's really important that you understand the problem before you really try to attempt to do anything about it. And, and I don't know that you necessarily understand the problem in the first time that you have it. So really taking a step back to say, do I, do I have this, or did I have a fleeting feeling? It's okay to have fleeting feelings. It's certainly okay for adolescents to bark at things that, that are unexpected to them. Um, but considering that those might not be the big feelings we're talking about, if you really do have, you know, something that, you know, is a big problem, um, do make sure that you understand what it is because, because people throw a lot of, um, counter conditioning and I'm going to take this trigger and make it a good thing at a dog. When what may have really been going on is a, a combination of factors. And that was the final straw, right? So the first thing I'm going to be looking to, uh, in the, in the longterm, after we've gotten through the moment now, I'm thinking, what am I really going to do? The first thing I'm looking at is how, how full or empty is my dog's stress cup in general or, you know, distress, negative stress cup, because if they are already feeling pretty terrible in some kind of larger way, they're bound to make either terrible conclusions about what I'm throwing at them or exposing them to, or terrible decisions about what they should do about things. And so I, I really want to look at how are you generally feeling before you have to deal with, I don't know, um, these, this equipment or, or this man in a bite suit, or, you know, this ring, these judges. Right. And because I still want arousal, but I want the feelings under that arousal to be in the, in the positive valence and you don't get arousal without some kind of emotion. So I'm still looking for them to have all of the excitement and all of the fun, but not whatever else they're feeling. And, and I can get to that by looking at stress. I don't have to necessarily get to that by looking at how do you feel about men in hats, which is highly specific.

I can instead say, how, how are you internally functioning that you can make good decisions right now, or, or get in some good information and make some good opinions about them. And if you're not doing that very well, I don't need to start focusing on, let me counter condition this one specific thing to you. Right. So maybe that's a more holistic approach, but you know, when you're, when you're going forward, when you're not reacting in the moment to try to reduce something, but you're thinking, how am I going to go forward? You want to think about all those, all those individual pieces if you can. And, and so I'm looking at, can I get my dog some good information in a way that they are not in the way that they can still be clear headed enough to take in and not thinking about their own defense or their own safety or their own desperation to get the reinforcer that I have. Cause it's also possible to be overwhelmed by, by desperation to get to your reinforcer. If we've trained dogs that they absolutely must get to this bite or must get to this ball or must get to that, that piece of equipment, then they can be desperate to get to that piece of equipment. And that's just as overwhelming a feeling as anything else. And so, and so I'm making sure I'm clear, making sure what's asked of them is really clear and making sure they're not in a space where, in a mental space where they will kind of draw conclusions. I don't want them to be drawing is, is my, my, my first attempt. And I, my, or my first effort, my last efforts will be like this specific thing that you're, that I need you to have different feelings about. Can I cause them? It's, that's the last on my list. The counter conditioning is the last on my list. Cause it's, it's already coming in the package anyway. Okay. And if I can get a dog feeling safe, being clear and exposed to, you know, the, the things I want them exposed to, they're going to be drawing the right conclusions without me trying to say, this is the conclusion you must draw. This is one I'm trying to get you to draw, right? I want them to be in charge of doing that. So I'm more setting the, all the things in motion so that they can do a good job there. So that's how I think of it. I know that like all of you are going to talk more about some of this stuff during the actual conference. So before we go, I just want to give everybody kind of a chance to talk a little bit about what they'll be talking about at the conference itself. Amy, Pedro, maybe you guys could just talk a little bit about what your talk is and, and,

you know, a little bit of the description and then Denise and Kim, maybe you guys could share the panel topics kind of that you'll be on, but Amy, I'm going to have you start us off. Sure. I really use this as an opportunity to dive a bit into the toddler space. Cause I wanted to know, you know, why we are calling it big feelings. I know we in the dog area didn't invent that term. And, and I, I wanted to think about, I wanted to learn more about how people deal with big, big feelings and toddlers. So I, I, I definitely included more of that than I thought I was going to when I was first writing the talk. Um, because, uh, there's in there, it's just great advice when, when, when, when, uh, emotions overtake you, they are hard to deal with and they, they're no, you know, it's reasonable to assume they're just as hard for a dog to deal with being overwhelmed as it is as it is a child being overtaken by a whole lot of feeling all of a sudden. And then when, when that happens, we see, we feel just as dysregulated. Like I, maybe I don't know what to do. Maybe I, I didn't want my toddler slash dog to feel this way. Maybe I'm now angry also, or, you know, feeling how dare you, or that's not what we're supposed to do. So I kind of went into that a fair amount, um, cause it was just really interesting to me. And in there are the lessons of, you know, what are these feelings? How are they feeling when they're, or how are they experiencing them and what can we do? Um, and then I, I go into some, you know, a bit more specifics of when your dog is feeling this thing, what are the, what are the practical things that you can do? But I, I really wanted to delve into what happens with toddlers. And then, and then that piece that I have talked about a bit in this podcast of how arousal and emotion are, are together. I don't know that I thought of them quite that way. I thought of them as a bit separate, like arousal could be a bit neutral. I don't know if I really thought it, but I must've thought it because when I, when I got to the information that you don't get arousal without, without a form of emotion, getting you up there, um, like, oh, well, of course that would make sense. You don't really have neutral, neutral activation with nothing, no motivation, no opinion, no enjoyment, nothing at all behind it. You don't have that. So I, it was fun to delve into that as well. So that, that's what I, what I did for, um, for the big feelings conference talk. Hey, Trina. I'm sorry. My brain just went, uh, the whole toddler thing, which is like. Such a great way to describe it.

It made me think of like, I was on vacation with my friends and their daughter and she had like a major meltdown and the everyone, well, mom and dad were really upset. And I'm like, there's definitely something wrong with me. Cause I'm standing there and I'm like, this is fascinating. Why is this child so upset? And I'm like, oh, I'm listening to what the kids screaming. And I'm like, I think I know what's going on. And mom's over there like, oh, I'm a terrible parent. Everyone think must think. And I'm like, first of all, nobody's really even paying attention. Right. Like it was just really funny. So. And, and I did figure out why she was upset. And then we were able to talk to her about it and then it was resolved. So I think the big takeaway there is like, it happens and it's not comfortable at the moment, but it's also not the total end of the world. Because again, you could try to just figure it out. Right. So anyway, I don't know. It was random, but. Um, so mine is about managing big feelings and sport dogs. So basically I kind of. To beat a dead horse. Like I put a whole list of reasons why, what could have caused that to happen. And then I just look at each one and then I give, um, some simple strategies. Like what could you do if this was the root cause of the problem? And then I also give a couple, like we mentioned earlier, like if this happens in the moment, you don't know what to do. You know, how can you handle that short term to kind of get you through that. Crisis for lack of a better word. Um, and I think also like I encourage them within that process is to learn to just really watch your dog and read your dog. Right. Because optimally at this point I can look at my dogs constantly and be like, Oh, we're about to head in this direction or we're about to head in that direction. And I can prevent that from happening. Um, so yeah, so that's basically what mine's about. Awesome. Denise, you want to share your panel topic? I'm going to be talking about living with big feelings along with another couple folks. And the reality is most of our time with our dogs is not in the competition sphere and, um, how we live and what that looks like, whether you do competition dog sports or not is a big deal. I do think we're at a time in, in the dog world where we are so heavily concerned about our dogs and their wellbeing that we are not spending enough attention on the, um, feelings and wellbeing of their caretakers. So, uh, I'm looking forward to this topic. If for no other reason than just to say, it's not your fault, you're doing your best. Hang in there and you matter.

Like if there's the summary, you don't even have to come to my talk or anything I have to say. Cause that, that is going to be what I am going to say over and over and over again. Uh, and then hopefully maybe some more specific and proactive ideas, but, uh, it's not your fault and you're doing your best and you're a wonderful caretaker and it's not all about your dog. So there it is. Awesome. Kim? I'm going to be on the panel that's discussing navigating big feelings in the dog sport world. And I'm excited about that because that was something I've worked on the past five years with Jane, getting her trial ready and into the ring. Um, and I have a lot of great skills that have worked for her to help get her there, not only get her there, but get her happy in the ring. And also the past few years I've been dabbling in herding, which talk about big feelings. Even I get big feelings when I'm involved with sheep and a dog and an instructor telling me what to do. So I've learned a ton there too. Um, I kind of, I've navigated that, the, you know, and, and I kind of went a weird course where I started with sheep because that's what's kind of expected. And that's what a lot of traditional, um, trainers will do when hurting. And then I realized that I had to take my dog entirely away from the sheep and the big feelings and work through those. And now I'm kind of working on how to incorporate, you know, how to get some big feelings back into this. So I literally have a bag of sheep wool in my basement that I have slowly introduced my dogs to, um, so that we can make the sheep, you know, not as exciting. So, um, I love the concept of big feelings and the sport world. So I'm excited for that discussion. Awesome. All right. Any, um, final thoughts or maybe key, key points you guys kind of want to leave listeners with? Kim? Um, I would say what I'd love to leave listeners with is to keep in mind that a big feeling is a moment in time. Um, it's not who your dog is, um, or even who you are. If you have the big feelings, I see a lot of, so my business, we work with a lot of pet dog owners and it's a lot of, I want to fix, fix, fix this. And so many of these behavior issues have big feelings attached to them. Um, and I think it's so important to consider the feelings really behind any behavior, um, whether they're big feelings or not. And to embrace who your dog is, uh, I, when I brought Sunday home, my big feelings puppy at about like, I don't know, five months old when, you know, you're starting to see some changes. She went through a week where she was like, perfect.

And I was like, oh my God, are you going to be boring? Like, what is this? Um, and I think it's important to embrace them for who they are, um, and, and what their big feelings are and think of it as not fixing, but just helping them. I like that. Petra? Oh my goodness. I mean, after that, I really don't know what to say. I think, I think people should feel, especially from what everyone said so far, I can tell like this workshop is going to be just so beneficial for people. Cause it's going to empower them. Right. Cause I think that's the biggest thing when this happens, they feel like they feel those bad feelings. Cause they feel like they don't have control over what happened and they don't know how to fix it. Right. So I think if you realize that there are things you can do to help your dog and then that will make you feel empowered. And, you know, of course to understand that you're not the only one out there that, you know, um, many people, most people, anybody that's had any, a number of dogs in their lifetime, you know, has to a certain degree or another had a similar experience. I'd say that when your dog is overwhelmed. By the feelings that they're having, that they're having a hard time, they're not giving you one and to be empathetic toward that. Um, and to lead with empathy in that, understand that your dog is struggling. And then from there, the, the best you can do is to have a plan. It's, it's not for you to now get dysregulated or to, to blame who's ever fault. Any of that is, or whatever you didn't teach before any of that, don't, you know, see what you can do to avoid the spiral and, and go with your plan because all there is to do is the thing in front of you. It's not going to help to, to, you can either, you know, make it better. You can make it worse. And so, um, when your dog is struggling, be there for them, help get out of that situation, revert to your plan and take your, take your next step forward. It, it, you know, it's not your fault. It's nobody's fault. Feelings happen, but, um, getting, getting lost in what it all might mean can just be so much for people. And I say, if you have a plan, you have the confidence of what to do next. So that that's something you can do proactively. Denise. I love the emphasis on empowerment and proactive choices and that you're going to get a lot of practical stuff out of this. You know, if you can come to a place where you feel good about how you're going to get through the next days and weeks, that's a really awesome thing. So recognizing you're not alone.

A lot of people are struggling with these things that ups and downs are normal, that having a plan can give you an amazing amount of confidence. Actually, I've seen this in other areas where a person's really struggling. I set out a plan, they try it again, and the struggle doesn't come back. Cause it's almost like the dog looks at them like, oh wait, you just suddenly took control of the situation. Um, there's, and you'll see that sometimes when you hand the leash to another person, even if you just have the plan, it can change how you feel and how you feel as a big part of your ability to make good choices and good handling. So I think this, uh, I think this conference is going to offer quite a lot. I'm quite sure I'm going to learn useful tidbits for my own dog. And I look forward to seeing a lot of people. I think we're going to get a lot out of this one. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you all so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Melissa. Absolutely. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music.