E424: 마이클 시카시오(Michael Shikashio) - 각성도와 공격성 (그리고 CANIS 2026 미리보기!)

online it just it just shows a graph and one is the performance and one is the arousal so the xx is the arousal y is the performance and you can get like you wake up in the morning and you lower state of arousal but as that goes up maybe you've had your first cup of coffee and you're starting to get awake your arousal level might go up a little bit and as that continues to curve up there's going to be a point at which it is going to start curving down meaning you're over aroused and that's going to impact your cognitive ability so the same thing can happen with dogs where if they are hitting these states of what we'll call it over arousal it impairs their sort of cognitive functioning which makes them less likely to respond to those cues and that's why we might see dogs respond less when they're like fence fighting with another dog on the other side of the fence I can tell you most dogs aren't gonna come when called when they're at that state of arousal unless they have a real high fluency in that type of behavior so with aggression again it is often the fuel for the fire and what is making it more difficult for the dog to respond to our cues that we've tried to train them in those kind of moments so and we'll talk more about what we can do in those situations as well so why is kind of understanding that so important when working on behavior cases yeah so so if we don't recognize states of arousal we're kind of dealing with a highly fueled situation so I love to use the fuel analogy a lot and I use it also with arousal so think of like a think of a car right if it's if it's low on fuel and something happens you're less likely to get an explosion but the more fuel you add and the more fuel you pump into that engine think of the brain like the engine and you're more likely to have difficulty controlling that so as the engine revs up as you pump more fuel in there that's going to make it more of a risky situation so um and you also have to think about other stressors right so other things impacting the environment could be weather for your when you're driving that car right a slippery road that can make it more risky so same thing happens with aggression cases I always look at not just the antecedents or the things in the environment that are triggering that aggressive response but what's underneath that hood so to speak what kind of fuel is in there the arousal level and if it's too much fuel and you're driving on ice you're more likely to have an accident and so always think about other stressors like uh you know maybe

the dog's had a real difficult day or the dog just saw another dog that barked and lunged at it now we're adding other stressors we might be spiking the arousal a little bit more and that's where it's going to make it much more likely for that aggressive response or in our car analogy the accidents to happen so what do we mean if we say that you know the arousal spills over into aggressive behavior what is that phrase yeah that's a common saying and I definitely use it I'm guilty as charged of using that saying a lot because it it does look like it you see a dog let's say in a dog park that's still a good one we see a lot is you know dogs playing very vigorously and we see that you know we could label it as oh that dog's highly aroused based on what we're observing with their behavior their body language some physiological signs maybe their pupils are dilated maybe they have their hackles up so we're saying oh that dog's in a high state of arousal and that's why they spilled over into an aggressive response I think we should probably move away from that labeling a little bit because arousal isn't necessarily the direct cause or the antecedent or the trigger for the aggression it's just a fuel so it's it's important not to think arousal is going to always cause aggression because that can become problematic too because especially in the sport dog world we sort we kind of get like oh we don't want those high states of arousal because it could spill over into aggression but it's just making the aggressive response more likely because of the higher arousal so um think of it maybe more as a I guess we should come up with a different saying you know help me brainstorm this a little bit arousal fuels aggressive behavior maybe is a probably a better way so because in the dog park analogy for instance you have two dogs highly aroused it's it's more likely for them to go into aggressive responses to each other but it's not the direct cause it's usually something like ouch that hurt you bit me a little too hard during your play bite or you jumped on my sore shoulder or you don't know how to play well or you you don't communicate well those are the direct antecedents for the aggressive responses but they're much more likely to happen than if the dogs were just relaxed and calm and around the house and maybe one gives each gives the same dirty look that they did in the dog park but they weren't at high levels of arousal so um so yeah hope that answers the question and hope we can move away from spilling over into some other label that we'll come up with at some point

deeds it or I don't know I'm trying to think of what what other phrases might work but maybe folks if they listen to this they can brainstorm some over in the alumni group so if we observe that we have a dog who maybe tends to tip over into aggression um and we can tell that their arousal level is going up are there ways to redirect that into more positive or at least neutral behaviors so it depends you know because it depends on the state of arousal and that dog's ability to to sort of modulate that and that is a part function of experience and the training that we do with dogs but it's also part of their physiological processes like we don't have control of our our own arousal sometimes like I I can have this cup of coffee that I have in my hand and if I have two shots of espresso in it my heart's gonna probably heart rate's probably gonna go up and increasing my arousal so I don't have direct control over that I can stop drinking espresso but I don't have direct control over that right so going back to that car analogy we can think of like um use like steering a car at high speeds right when you're at a lower speed and less gas is going into that engine you're gonna have an easier time controlling the car but at those higher speeds then you're going to have it's more risky so you have to have better timing just like we would with our cues to dog we see a dog staring at another dog their hackles start coming up they might start barking and we're gonna have a harder time often getting that dog to respond to our cues so good timing before we start seeing the car going into a slide or before we get too close to that car in front of us we've got to have good timing to do something proactively to get the dog or the car out of that situation and it's sort of sidetracking here a little bit you also want to think about the breed of dog just like the type of car you're going to have some cars that are higher performance that can go to higher speeds much more quickly you can have turbo boosters in them right and so some think of some of your dog breeds think of border collies or mountain balls or any working line breeds they're going to be like driving high performance cars so your timing and your control has to be even better with certain breeds or cars right so with dogs we we talk about stimulus control which is putting you know when a dog is going to respond to that antecedent cue we give them or saying hey if I don't come and putting that on stimulus control which is just lots of good training and repetition as we know and that's going to be more likely for that dog to

respond in those high arisal situations because it's been practiced and those sort of pathways in the brain have been more firmed up just like we would in a car we're going to make sure we have good control good brakes good tires we've practiced driving if it's our teenager we've brought them out driving with us you know so it's that's one part of it so if we're going to redirect it we're going to want good stimulus control sometimes though you have to go over to management because the dog it's not they're not going to respond to anything so we're just going to have to move them away from the the issue that they're having with the arousal and even in dog sports we might see the same thing not in an aggressive sense or seeing aggression but we might see some performance issues or you got totally out of my wheelhouse because I'm not a dog sports uh enthusiast like like the community here however um I do see the obviously the parallels with aggression and not having a dog not respond so there's actually um as I was thinking about this question there's uh lots of great people out there that that talk about the conditions in the brain and one of them is uh dr kathy murphy who I think you know and a lot of the listeners probably know as who's a neuroscientist and um she mentions the the frontal cortex right so think about the fuel and the engine and if we're throwing lots of fuel we're revving that engine there's a point where that engine can fail right and so the same thing can happen in the dog's brain that frontal cortex the neurons start to fry and that's also think about that yerk's dotson law once you get over that hump in that curve you get into these poor states of cognitive performance the same thing's happening with the dog's brain that frontal cortex is frying the neurons or uh it's like too much fuel going in there and that's where you have that those issues and that's where the dog might not listen at all it might not even hear you so it's like your engine is overheating and you need to let it cool off so what do you do you've got to pull off to the side get the dog away from the stimulus and then let it cool down get them focused again and then if you're working on something you can try again or if suddenly it's an aggression issue you want to think hard about the management and reset and refocus on what your training plan is going to be so um yeah there's ways to those are the direct ways we can talk about indirect ways as well um and how that we can build tolerance to that yeah yeah i definitely want to go there so how can owners

help their dogs kind of build you use the word tolerance i think it's a good word um to arousal inducing situations we've got a situation that we know is likely to cause that spike um we want to go to the dog show still or we want to be able to take our dog on the walk past the dog that barks to the fence you know how do we get there yeah so i break this up into a couple different um initial paths that you have to take so we talked about like what to do in the moment a little bit we'll talk more about that but uh for it always starts just like any behavior case we want to start at home we want to start looking holistically at the dog and because there's a lot of uh influences to arousal such as stress such as what happens in the environment so what first thing i'm going to do is look at the environment of the dog and say what kind of stressors are here what can we do to reduce that because especially if a dog that's experiencing chronic stress that makes it much more likely for them to go into high arousal situations or becoming more highly aroused because they're hyper vigilant uh they're sort of on edge if i was going to label that and there's a lot of anxiety components to it too so if we can reduce that in the environment to start with so at home is there lots of traffic people coming in and out of the home it's a lot of dogs barking um from the neighboring fence as if people passing by and the dogs at the window barking at them all day long i've i want to significantly reduce that because that's going to help with the dog's arousal we need to have more more time in the day where the dog can kind of regulate and uh relax right um the next thing i might look at is medical too because medical issues certainly if we're in pain arousal or hypervigilance around something that could um potentially be painful right and so just like us if we're having you know some sort of injury we're going to be potentially more likely to go to higher states of arousal or readiness you know that responsiveness i was talking about earlier to deal with that unparalleled threat that could cause us pain so always important to look at medical conditions uh because that and that's just in general for any behavior issues right um look at nutrition too uh i know that if i ate a box of twinkies or had my two espressos i think i'll be in a higher state of arousal then if i was to have a nice you know cup of tea and maybe just some uh fruit or something for breakfast so nutrition does matter you know and that's my again not my area of expertise however i do think we should do our

diligence and learning about what's best for our dogs and their nutrition what they're eating and how it impacts their behavior and their arousal and their physiology throughout the day and next up is really important too obviously enrichment and exercise is something everybody talks about knows about these days but what type of exercise and what type of enrichment is the dog getting um and is it appropriate for their breed for their individual selves because sometimes we see dogs they're put into high states of arousal in the name of exercise so let's think of like a treadmill right and there's nothing wrong with treadmills per se it's how you use them so if we have a dog that doesn't know how to modulate their arousal we throw them on a treadmill thinking we're going to get that out of them because we're going to make them tired you might get them tired but that doesn't mean you have changed the arousal that frontal cortex area right so uh appropriate exercise and enrichment for dogs that have issues with arousal i prefer much more uh relaxed exercises like going for a nice relaxed sniff walk in the woods or hike off leash somewhere if possible go to a sniff spot you know place you can rent like the airbnb for dogs and those sniff spots you can go and just let the dog sniff around get that enrichment but it's much lower arousal it's at a lower arousal level um next thing you want of course think about is sleep and rest that is another one that dogs especially in aggression cases often are not getting enough of because they're constantly hypervigilant so you can see kind of think about this vicious cycle where the dog's like i'm tired but now i'm on my edge and like no this person's going to come by the house and so they actually don't get enough downtime and ability to go to regulate and come back to homeostasis right so um i often will ask clients how much sleep does it all get and i then ask them how much are you sure that the dog's getting that's much sleep because they don't sometimes don't know and and a lot of our clients are going to think oh they sleep all night well that might be seven eight hours for the average human but that's not enough for dogs and dogs especially experiencing high states of arousal we need are going to need even more sleep just like if we are doing lots of high arousal activities during the day we're going to be fried by the time that the day is over so it's important sleep is in there and then i think one other part of the sort of holistic package is the routine so having an a

nice set routine that's predictable so dogs thrive on predictability because they they don't know what we're going to be doing during the day so the more routine we can create is going to make it less arousing so just like um if we don't know what time that drill instructor is going to come running into the barracks with the horn glowing you guys got to get up now that's going to spike our arousal very quickly uh versus if we know all right i've got to get up at five in the morning to do my drills or whatever and that's that's going to be much more predictable so um so those are the things i look at first to help them build tolerance but then the actual exercises uh the dog sports people are the folks that go to to teach these things so helping the dog go into higher states of arousal you might use something like tug for instance uh dogs we can argue are probably in higher seats of arousal when they're anticipating a game of tug and we can we can modulate that we can get them really ramped up we can use our movement and by the way movement really is one of the things you want to look at as a human how much that impacts their arousal so the more i obviously run and move quickly that's going to escalate their arousal level or their state of readiness for that tug toy so we can watch for that we can say okay this dog's getting more excited the eyes are getting wider the bounciness is more there so this dog's getting to higher state arousal can i ask for the dog to do something in that moment can i get a sit can i get a down can i get a hand touch whatever it is whatever's most appropriate for that dog and breed can i get that in that higher state arousal and that's going to really help the dog learn how to respond to those cues in higher states of arousal moments whether it's a negative situation or a positive situation like playing tug so practicing those things in a variety of contexts in a variety of situations can be so helpful because guess what when you're out there with your dog that tends to bark and lunge at other dogs you're going to see that response to a cue but you can also integrate those games that you're using to control arousal in those moments because it's gonna when you think about it feel very similar to the dog i'm feeling a certain way the dog doesn't know my heart rate it's going up but they're starting to feel a certain way and they're also seeing that they also probably feel some of those similarities when they see that on a dog that they typically react to so you can use that activity that the positive balanced emotional

activity like tug in the environments where those negative balance emotional situations like seeing another dog happen and you can start to shift and transfer that through through classical conditioning but it's also through controlling that arousal and getting that responsiveness to cues so um that's probably one of the most important things you can do is like practicing you know and you can go back to the old days like go wild and freeze and there's different types of games that people used to play and again dog sports people other people i turn to and in fact if you watch the webinar that's coming up you'll see uh good examples of that um and i just a few other quick mentions too is um there's sometimes people talk about relaxation protocols like karen overall's relaxation protocol dr chris pachl has one uh nan arthur has one so suzanne clothier there's quite a few different versions of relaxation exercises i highly recommend those uh because it also helps the dog learn to be calm now there's some arguments of like are we really teaching uh are we really teaching like how to modulate arousal or is it a function of here's the context you're near your handler you're near your guardian um and they're reinforcing you for relaxing is it more so that right so is it the chicken or egg right is it the behavior that's reducing the you know that calm relax behavior the dog on a down on a mat or something like that is that reducing the arousal or is it because we're doing that it's going to reduce arousal which then creates the calm behavior so there's a lot of arguments around that but for me whatever right but it definitely helps i've seen it help many dogs where dogs learn relaxation exercises uh whatever you want to call them or however you want to uh like define how they're working i find that they work well so that's one uh and then massage is also highly underrated massage and movement and things where um uh dogs because when you think about tension in the body and the arousal you you think about tight musculature and sometimes that can impact the dogs physically so same thing is just um you know again there's other people that are much more savvy about this stuff than i but i do like to talk about it because i find it uh it it can be also very helpful teaching the dog how to relax when being touched also helping them physiologically and physically and um you know you can incorporate that as well in moments where you're having issues so like outside let's go relax on a mat while you see other dogs at a distance and get the massage or we practice relaxation exercises

so um so there's a variety of of approaches and you got to find what's best for your dog because you you might have heard me mention okay relaxation and massage or high arousal tug game in the presence of the stimulus you got to work see what works best for the dog and sometimes both and sometimes one or the other so um yeah so that's my um general overall like what to do to help dogs and you can see it's much more holistic than always just in the moment a lot builds around it it does feel a little bit like kind of the core pieces there are we're going to take day-to-day life and try and make day-to-day life a little less arousing so that we're you know starting with a little bit lower baseline and then we're going to try and build fluency into behaviors so you can think when you are a little more excited and we're going to try and build some skills so that you have the ability to modulate that arousal yourself a little more is that kind of three yes yeah and one other thing just another good example to think about real quickly is just a little like shelter dogs where they don't they aren't getting the things i just talked about so you might see lack of sleep you might see of course lack of exercise uh routine is sometimes there but not always uh sometimes they're going to have undiagnosed medical issues because maybe they just came to the shelter so and they're maybe on a new nutrition or something so there's a lot of variables in the shelter environment that can cause these arousal issues and certainly if you talk to any shelter team member you're going to hear about arousal and the dogs jumping up and biting leashes and biting clothes and those those are all functions of over arousal and uh and frustration of course as well sort of a cousin of arousal but that's a perfect example of like once we start to shift into the things the dog needs that enrichment that sleep that exercise meeting the breed needs giving them olfactory outlets to go sniff things like that you see significant reduction in the arousal so and you don't and a lot of times you're not really doing anything in those moments you might have a good handler that can handle like all right the dog's biting the leash here's what i do and what did i say before it's movement so good handlers where the dog's biting the leash or something they relax their own body they they slow their movements and the dog often follows suit so that can be helpful in the moment but really you won't see a ton of change in that those type of moments until you address those other holistic factors

so you mentioned the webinar kind of in passing so let's talk about that a little more so you have a webinar on arousal and aggression coming up on september 4th for fenzy um talk to me a little bit about kind of what's going to be included what are you covering and maybe who should join us yeah definitely so it's going to be about what arousal is what it isn't um some exercises to help i mentioned there's some great dog sport trainers that i've asked and some other trainers as well to to give some demonstrations of the exercises they use so you'll see that in the webinar and of course i'm going to be talking about how it all relates to aggression and what to look for uh especially in problematic cases where you are seeing arousal uh being the main component of those aggressive responses so we're going to talk about the body language involved what to look for how to modulate it it's kind of a soup to nuts overall uh look at arousal and aggression so um i'm excited to do this one because it's a topic that a lot of people ask me about so it's uh so it's good for dog guardians and and trainers as well that might be working these kind of cases awesome all right so i want to switch gears for a little bit here uh so you recently made a kind of big announcement next year next october you're going to be hosting the canis conference can you share some of the details absolutely so this was born because i um i was approached by abdt so the association for pet dog trainers and they're now known as abdt international uh about hosting a joint conference and then i thought to myself hmm what if we just get everybody that's holding conferences together because there's there's a lot of conferences out there and it can be difficult to decide if you're a real conference junkie especially you you can be like all right which one do i go to which again because you can only get away so much and afford so much so we thought why don't we try to get everybody who wants to get involved in this into one giant conference and the goal really for it is collaboration and connection it's it's about getting people together because we see enough divisiveness and fractured silos and things like that in our industry right a lot of people arguing all the time social media and it's just getting worse and worse i think because of the nature of social media so we and we start to see all these smaller groups sort of splinter off and form their own groups and have their own little conferences and there's nothing wrong with that because you can certainly have specialty conferences

but we decided you know let's try to shift that trend a little bit of all of this divisiveness and bring everybody together in one place where we can all talk because we know that when people are in person with each other it's so much different than when they're behind a keyboard right talking on social media it is so much different and it's just that's the goal here is to get everybody in one space not only from the dog training world but from the veterinarian science world the shelter world dog sports of course you know so all of this coming into one space is going to allow for even more collaboration and more idea sharing and and lots of um i think ways to connect and that's the most important thing for me it's just it's always been like that i've always been i always enjoy connecting people and just introducing people because i i find that when people collaborate some beautiful things come out of it so so it's going to be um there's going to be actually eight different organizations represented here so it's aggressive dog and apdt we also have kim brophy's family dog mediation group iwabc foundation is going to be there best friends animal society for the shelter track nacsw which is the national association for canine scent work and of course fenzy dog sports academy will be there um and the companion we just picked up the companion animal research and education lab in the canine science symposium group so that's going to make up our veterinary slash science track uh and there are going to be five tracks if i can't remember if i mentioned that which is training behavior shelter veterinary science and dog sports and of course we're going to be having uh the fdsa camp there so that'll be making up our dog sports track yeah um all right so you kind of talked a little bit about the idea kind of how it came together but um for you personally kind of what inspired you what why is this important for you breaking down silos breaking down walls building bridges it's again i my goal is to just connect people to to because i think a lot of trainers approach me and sometimes they're they're really afraid of stepping out into the dog training world or saying anything on social media because of their fear of the critiques and the attacks and a lot of that is born out of all of these walls that we're building um over different topics obviously tools come into mind um you know people that raw feed you know things like that there's there's arguments all the time so people are actually really afraid of um they're hesitant you know there's this hesitancy to connect

and that's a shame because you find i found that there's some really brilliant trainers with such incredible ideas and they approach me with it but they're just afraid to put it out there and what a shame right what if the next really groundbreaking uh strategy or technique or something that's going to really help dogs and their people is out there but that person's like i'm just gonna i don't i don't feel comfortable sharing it um and it never gets out there i mean that that's such a travesty to me and i think it's it's it's terrible it's not good for the growth of our industry it's not good for dogs and their people so that is what inspired me is let's just let's you know let's drop down these walls we all have differences regardless right that could be i have differences with people in you know the aggressive dog group and people within fdsa can't probably have differing opinions on all kinds of things a nutrition or how to teach weave balls or whatever you guys do and that's uh and that's okay you know we can do that but it's it's so much better to do that in person because people are less likely to say something mean to your face versus when they're behind a keyboard so um that's another part of it it's just just bringing people together and finally again i think i mentioned but just just getting the different industries together so because veterinarians veterinary behaviors have a lot to share with trainers trainers have a lot to share with the shelter folks shelter folks have a lot to share with the veterinarians so you see there's all this potential collaboration um is is what the aim is so so let's get together yeah so what can attendees expect i mean you talked about the different tracks can they just kind of sit in on anything they want can we do a little bit of this and a little bit of that so this is going to be you know we've had lots of if anybody's been in the conference circuit over the last like half a decade or so we've had a lot of great conferences but a lot of them have been solemn because we went through the pandemic and that and all the the you know difficulties happening in the u.s and across the world and a lot of it has been focused on um you know being having spaces to talk to one another and uh support each other hug each other you know i mean that kind of thing like really that's and that's a good thing um but what's been the thing is let's have some fun right i think it's time to have some fun celebrate let's you know and forget about the world's troubles for just a minute and come together and just have a so that's

the that's what's going to be different here it's going to be a different experience uh we are really you know shifting towards the music festival theme and i use this analogy a lot it's like think of it like coachella or lalapalooza a bunch of different bands getting together we're all going to have fun um we're actually designing some of the the speaker um uh graphics where it's going to be like a like a music festival poster if you ever seen those where it's just like different bands and you get to see who's coming so um that is and the attendees can pick up to six we actually have six different rooms going at any one time so um and you can choose the track you want to go to you don't have to stick to one track though you can say all right i wanted to check out this talk on shelter behavior oh there's a good veterinary talk there oh and this one i'm going to go check out the dog sports and check out the dogs working in the fdsa camp so you there's no restriction to what you can do you kind of go to each one um the there are limited working dog spots so if you want to sign up for the fdsa camp there's a very limited number um and so we are going to have working dogs there as well as demos we're going to have a exhibit hall with over 100 exhibitors so you get to so bring your wallet in an extra suitcase time to go shopping yeah that's what happens at dog conferences you know you end up going with a bunch of stuff for your own dogs so uh yeah think of it in a we're going to have a amazing cocktail reception at the end of the conference we're going to have special events throughout so dr patricia mcconnell is coming in uh she's not going to be speaking but she's going to be doing some special events uh there's a indoor golf uh indoor uh what do you call it a go-kart track right next door to the hotel man so we can literally you can literally walk from your hotel room to the indoor go-kart track there's a top golf there's tons of restaurants and other fun experiences there's like one of those 80s arcades there there's just so much to do in the area so so think fun exciting experience still supportive collaborative inclusive but let's bring some fun into the environment now so i think we skipped a step there so do you want to just kind of verbally because i don't think we've said it yet where it is and the dates oh yeah so schaumburg illinois october of 2026 and it is uh so schaumburg is like just north of chicago it's technically part of chicago but it's really easy to get to so we were smart about choosing which way you go from the airport there

if you go one way from the airport it's like an hour of traffic but the way to schaumburg it's like 20 minutes from the airport so it's a and it's a beautiful location i might be biased but it's like they've completely redid the whole hotel convention center it's just absolutely amazing place so uh yeah schaumburg 2026 and not 2025 people are some people like well i can't wait to go next month i'm like that's a month and a year but uh yeah we needed time to plan something this big so we did uh start it quite early but um yeah yeah so and where can folks go for more information on the conference uh canis conference.com so that's canis like canis familiaris canis conference.com awesome all right any uh final thoughts or key points you kind of want to leave folks with on either topic yeah um you know what i've been i've been talking since we're talking about social media and things i've been seeing a lot of um good discussion lately and of course denise is always coming up with with great topics and bringing reasonable discussion into our world and that's that's what i want to think about is think of community and um community building and that's again the goal of this the goal of this this conference the goal of us talking together on a podcast so all this is just building community and i think that what we're seeing too is especially on social media and i think the final thought for me is do you want your legacy to be breaking people down to build up your following or is it to build people up to build your following because there's really two types of accounts on social media when you see it you have those that criticize others to create controversy to build those algorithms so that more people comment more people come in seeing the controversy and that's so damaging to our industry so i think you know think about the legacy you want to leave is it going to be you're going to be known as ah they were just great too so supportive bringing people up never criticizing or do you want to do the opposite so um yeah so that's my final thought there very important one for sure well thank you so much for coming on the podcast mike thank you i appreciate the time absolutely super excited to have you it's always a good conversation so thank you and thank you to all our listeners for tuning in we'll be back next week don't miss it if you haven't already subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available

today's show is brought to you by the fenzy dog sports academy special thanks to denise fenzy for supporting this podcast music provided royalty free by bensound.com the track featured here is called body audio editing provided by chris lang thanks again for tuning in and happy training o