에피소드 21: Mathias Dögel

uh okay i i know this too so i called uh first um folker riedel the breeder of the toitones yeah and uh i said um yeah i i wanna have um a male puppy from uh your litter and uh he only make ha ha ha ha euro number uh blah blah blah blah he was at one point he was very much in in you know everybody was asking for puppies from him at one time for sure exactly it was around the year 99 2000 and uh at this time it uh explodes in germany everybody won by uh malinois and of course uh nobody um heard about the name matthias dougal yes and so volker he don't care he said uh maybe maybe i have a female for you and um i answered um no i only want a male and this was the reason why i said um no to folker and uh uh then um i come to my to my camel uh from the kreen schmiede it's um he don't breed anymore but uh this time it was his sea litter and um i remember very well uh i drive there uh to to watch the puppies and before we go to the kennel we uh going to the um to the club um making some training um and then i see there all this malinois dogs uh from from this kennel and from airport hannover and um after this years with german shepherd my my first idea was oh my god what for ugly dogs i love it that's everybody's reaction isn't it so my my belly my belly was like i having a big stone and i was thinking oh what am i doing what am i doing exactly exactly then they make protection and uh i started to to to like it yeah and it was exactly like this it was exactly like this i think a lot of people did that when that was very very similar route me included i always always tried to do it with the german shepherd um i started also with them and one had the bad hips one had the bad back one had a really bad skin problems like really bad but as working qualities they were amazing absolutely amazing dogs but when you go by three dogs and you spend let's say year and a half to two years of each that's six years of of playing gambling and not knowing and but that was long time ago now i think it's i don't know do you think i i think there is better chances especially when you know when to look there's still a risk with the german shepherds but there is a better chance to to get a healthy one today i think better than before or i don't know what do you think yeah i i i agree so um i i think um in the in the late 90s and um until 2005 2010

um you have the much bigger chance to get a good malinois for for uh the igp sport than a german shepherd um but i i think in in the last 10 years it changed a little bit so um a lot of german shepherd readers um um see okay we must take care uh for sure first about health second about drive and uh third also about nurse and yeah and and today today um i don't know how it is in in the states but um here in in europe um um i think you have at the moment the bigger chance to get a good german shepherd than a malinois yeah i know what you mean especially at least in my opinion the the temperament of the malinois starts to it's changing to more uh i i don't want to say weaker type of dogs but kind of i don't even know what word to use but it's more of a temperament problem than the health problem right you know uh what what was uh what was um the reason why the malinois was so successful um in the in the late 90s and early 2000 um i i think um of course healthy and um second a good drive good temperament and um yeah also good a good good nerves for for for the sports and um more stable more stable more stable exactly and i think that the biggest problem for the breeder is um to to see the difference between drive and nerves and um you know how it is uh if you wanna if you wanna be um a training champion of course this is not so important but if you wanna be successful on competition you need a stable dog of course you know how it works you're driving thousand kilometer to to the championship that your dog um is under much stress because a new environment training all the time um you go into the stadium a lot of people um new helper um of course you need you need a dog who who can handle this yeah yeah yeah and it's uh uh and and because it's not stable it's not like there is a one training problem that you say i can fix this it can pop up in any in any place during the competition just just because of of you know the temperament and the character it's a it's very true and hopefully i mean we're paying attention i think we we it became popular very popular breed um so we we almost kind of maybe and maybe not but almost need to go through that kind of roller coaster that the german shepherd dog went to and i think we're in this peak that everybody wants a malinois because if you don't have a malinois you're not a good trainer or or something like this you know and that's uh that's a disadvantage for the we we want people to train we want to do the sports but yeah with with the the breeding selection is

very interesting how how it's going tell me with the i i really wanna i mean we're gonna go all over the place but i i definitely want to hear how how working dog how the the whole idea how did that came to you because it's so brilliant and i know at the time i don't know if in europe people knew but we had this and it still exists the pedigree database and like few different things at the time when the internet first started to come in and and those were the places to go but then you you took it to a totally different level so i i really very curious to hear how how this whole happened because i'm sure there was a lot of roadblocks and it wasn't just a smooth try to get where you did yeah it started um 2003 and it was uh at the beginning only uh the idea about um a small database for um belgian shepherds and this uh with with pedigrees and results so that the idea to to um combine um the result lists um from the competitions with um the pedigree and a picture of the dog and some information like um yeah name uh right right they yeah everything like this this this was the start and um how many people how what is kind of like just couple of people that you had going with it or was it just you doing it how how did um at the beginning it was um a friend um he helped me a little bit uh with uh the development it was a small coding so um i remember for the first version i i give him 300 euro for his support yes yes so it's it's nothing but um okay it was a small version now and um of course um i i learned programming development web development when i was young but uh then with 21 22 i i i stopped it so i'm i know what happened of course but but i'm not a developer yeah and um in this time this guy helped me and we bring up this working doc website to life at the beginning only with molly noise those results and everything like this and um after i think six months um i learned i met the first people who said oh we like this idea we we collected a lot of data in our excel files and then they started to to help me and yes this was the beginning without any community without any videos without all these functionalities um you see today yeah and um in 2005 i exit make exit to my job um i was um something like an account manager for for um digitalization in in the company here in leipzig and i decided um i want to be my own boss uh since i'm a child um and i decided to to to yeah to found my my own enterprise so my my own um startup

and um it was at home uh in my working room and after six months um i started with selling software and make customization for this um on small medium companies and after six months um it grows i was successful with it and i go to uh i rent the office and i hired the first employee and um yeah so with with this business i i grow until 2007 and um working dog was growing also but um the program was exactly the same like 2003 i make some bug fixes here and some small uh functionalities there but but nothing big big but my problem was that um 2007 i must spend something like uh three or four thousand euro every month for the server and for the hosting and um i i paid this only um with my income from uh my software company so and um then i was at the point where i say okay i i spent every month something like three four five thousand euro and with advertisement i only um get about 800 or 900 euro it was yes yes yes yeah and um then comes the point where i was thinking oh shit um it's a hobby but now it starts to be really inexpensive and uh and uh then there was a funny situation because uh one of my my first um sponsors of advertisement partners yeah yeah company here in germany called bell kando um and um i i met this marketing guy uh one day and uh he said to me um hey come on it's a good idea and i see it's uh too much for you so we give you some money and we take care about it with you in the future and uh bring it uh make it big so but they wanted to be like like partners in a way or yeah they wanna wanna be partner or maybe it was more that uh they wanna buy it okay okay they wanna buy it and um but for sure they they need me to um help them bring making it uh bigger um and um okay okay okay why not so what we are talking about and um he said to me 80 000 euro and i was in shock because at this time so much money for me for yes the website is um and for me in this situation it was so much money uh and i was really thinking about it but at the end um people people who know me know um money is not uh in my list on number one for sure not so it's

it's more about um i want to make things big i want to see them grow i want to develop things uh this is like the i mean like the businessman part i don't know if it all happened through as you were going with working dog but you're really good at it i mean yeah this is this is what i like and um so i said no to him and um after after this conversation um i i decided um to hire a developer um this was my first developer in my company and uh then we start to make working dog professional yeah and um we spent about one year of work and at the end we bring up the new version and then in 2008 i think it was um we released uh the premium account when did the video start i think it was around the same time no yes exactly um the video because that was a game changer a lot a lot of people won't kill me at this time because uh they said um why why you take money in our hobby why you take money in the internet everything in the internet is for free for sure and uh now you you're going and take money for data this is not okay and uh yes it was really um a difficult situation but at the end um it was necessary yes for sure that's more of a that's kind of typical of uh how people in europe would think that way like in the states it's a yeah if if you have passion and you're putting your time and you're charging for your effort everybody seems to be uh understanding it different than how people in europe are about it yeah exactly um in in 2008 um people in in in europe um don't understand why to pay uh a monthly a monthly fee um for for for data so and um in the states at this time um linkedin started and facebook and um all this company grow and um yes this was this was completely a new way to make um um business in the internet because before everybody know it's only about advertisement yeah very much similar to uh um like the online schools and stuff that's how i started you know the same the same way and i remember actually at one point uh we did some link exchanges and stuff when when you still had to you know promote it and everything that was a yeah a long time ago now it's not even only igp obviously we are covering all working dog sports but what else is there because i like on my end what i spend most of my time of course is igp and all the ring sports and and stuff like that but i i know that there is a lot more going on uh what what else do you have so we we have all the uh sports you you find out there on our website and um the the most biggest community for sure is uh agility wow and yeah not

surprising right it's at the moment it's it's one of the the biggest the biggest parts in in sport and um yeah you you know i'm i'm igp man too since i'm a child and i know both sports very well and um i always asking myself um what's what's the difference why is one one sport so successful and the other sport has um really a hard time to grow or to exist and for sure you have um the the the situation in the world changed and um a lot of people ask today why must a dog bite a human being like this exactly in this stupid way they ask it and um yes agility you um earn success much more faster um i don't i don't mean um you are faster in in the world success or on the big competitions for sure it's the same hard way like in my yeah and people competing in this sport and on the on the top places are high professional uh exactly like we did oh yeah so it's a way of life at this point there is nothing yeah exactly exactly it's it's totally similar but you know how it is um to do igp sport uh you need the right dog so it's it's not possible with a labrador in this way it's not possible with a golden red river but you can you can have a little bit of success in agility with this kind of breeds and um yes the igp sport is also very complex uh you don't have only one exercise you have three and to to build on that more agility is there is still judges discretion but it's way more uh unbiased much more fair the competition than like the the way a judge in igp can influence a certain competition by their own interpretation is so uh uh dramatically different than how how much agility judge can change things and dictate right it's a it's a little bit uh and i think um um yeah it's part of our sport the igp sport that it it's a difficult to to for everybody to one day become more on the same page no matter how much judges um you know camps and how much trying to come to the same vision ultimately still left to that judge on that day on the field too and it's hard because you're a human being and you have 100 dogs to judge and all of a sudden your brain just kind of go somewhere not necessarily that you're purposefully screwing up some competitor it's just human nature and um so that's a big big big advantage of agility and again i know i mean i've done some in in the early 90s myself and i i know there is still room for the judge but it's very different

compared to igp our sport is almost like the you know how how any priest can interpret the bible what actually says when it says something else and it's kind of like how igp judges can play with the rules another one it's a yeah this is a very true the all all breeds are welcome and you still need a team but you are not like if you if you want to go and do igp and have success you need you need a good helper you cannot not have a good helper and that means at least in the states and now i think it's becoming more and more normal in europe people used to think oh i'm not driving hour and a half because it's right next to the my next street is the dog club but i think now people in europe also understand the importance of a good team and good helper and and the support and the coaching and they're much more willing now to spend the time and to travel to to accomplish it you you can do a lot on your own for sure in igp you can you can also do it but at the end igp has has a kind of complexity it's it's in in the situation that you have different drives working together makes it so complex so when when i see the good people from from um the obedience of course they make only obedience yeah the the situation in our sport is you you know it when you start with the dog in the protection it changes something in the dog and and you must take care um to um explain the dog that um he don't switch in the drives this is this makes it very very hard and i'll i need a lot of years to understand this um and i see in the igp sport um from year to year you get more experience you know more solutions for some problem and you see a lot of good all the dog hand handlers and they make great sport because they have a lot of experience yeah and on the other side um so i i make i make dog sport now since 25 years something about this and um i'm still learning i'm still learning and i'm i'm really i'm really um um laughing always when when i see um in our sport um the one hit wonders some people who win a competition with the first dog first time they are successful and then after this competition you see them making seminars yes and this is for me such a funny situation because um they have one dog and um with one training um method and maybe a good trainer behind and with with this situation they were successful and when they go to a seminar there are 10 different dogs with 10 different

problems and 10 different things to handle and they have no idea how to do it yeah this is a yeah that's that's igp for sure and and somehow i think it's because the need i don't know why like i don't actually i i also wonder about this quite a bit sometimes what makes people just jump on that train it's like oh i'm gonna go to this seminar because this person and it's not that hard to see especially talking about working dog i mean just go on working dog put the name of the person and and vroom everything shows up do you want to learn from this person or do you want to learn from this person like i i think if we go to a doctor or something else we we humans make a little bit smarter choices and when it comes to dog training i think um most i and i don't it's one thing when you don't understand the sport but because you don't understand the sport it's still not an excuse to just kind of say okay i'm gonna follow this person because he's really good without really checking if he is really or she is really good it's a it's a something with our sport that it happens a lot they have um um yeah the one hit wonders is a good good way and and another big problem is the what we call it in in in the states seminar hoppers you know kind of like you have the people that hop at the bars saturday night you you have a whole community of dog trainers that they just no matter who is in town let's go and and let's change everything until the next seminar comes and let's change everything again and five years later now you're getting your second dog and you're not learning you're still doing exactly the same pattern that didn't bring you any success and it's so illogical to me and especially really like when you have the data it's it's one thing if we cannot check accomplishments credentials and then okay yeah that's what you have but but when that's possible yeah it's interesting interesting uh a way of thinking but the sport is definitely not easy sport it's not for everybody and i don't know like the we will get to this i i want to talk about fci and dmc and all just just like all those governing organizations trying to make igp sport for everybody it's not easy and i and i think no matter how we we you know certain people keep changing the rules and keep making it more a supposedly more uh trainer friendly and more for everybody i think um even in the 90s it was still friendly sport you just cannot you know you you still could go as far as you could go and then there is a different level that not everybody can get to which is i think it's totally okay just like when we

look at a dog that competes some dogs will get good scores and some will get very good scores and very few get excellent it's not like we all want excellent but it's not meant to be for this yes and i think it's the same with the training no like you everybody is not capable to be an excellent trainer and it's not that it's a bad thing or a good thing it's just but i think it hurts the sport of of um um washing it down and and you know changing the rules with the intention to make it more popular what what do you think about this the sport must develop um and if you don't develop um you are not ready for for the future and you are not ready for the next step and you will not not get new people into the sport at the end um i think everybody must understand um that our sport is very special in the way that he's difficult because you you have to learn this three things uh tracking obedience and protection yeah and um it's like it's this are three sports in one yes and and almost three different dogs three different styles of training exactly exactly it's so hard to to combine this three exercises in three excellent exercises this is the biggest problem you know you you you see it on uh at the satzit competition there was um a female making 98 points in obedience it was so wonderful yeah i really really like it but then in the long attack in protection she runs away and of course then you have a german shepherd you can't even look at him in the obedience he was walking like a sheep yep yep but in protection it was brutal it was strong it was dominant and this is um this is i think also one one uh reason why this satzit competition was successful because this this dogs will never see on the world championship right they they will not reach this goal because when they start with their first exam a qualification to maybe the nationals and try to get from the nationals to the world championship with this dog you will never have success and so nobody nobody can see this and this is what what we did at the uh tzatzit competition we we give this people um something like like a platform to show and um this makes it very very special and and was there was that a qualification or or how did that no right it was no qualification you need an igp2 yeah and uh then you go there and make your igp3 and uh this is this is this is i think the reason why it was um so successful because um the the the normal

the normal one can start there on a very high competition level with the high professional and um um everything there everything there was like one of the best organized world championships we have uh the best people in trekking making nice tracks um perfect organization there with draw with with high qualified judge we make it uh we make it uh in the stadium it was uh everything perfect like a big big big competition and this people who was never on a world championship um or something like this say wow yes what is this here everything is is so nice organized and and on top of that you were able to draw some of the best of the best from quite a few countries it wasn't it wasn't just and i mean we you know everybody that pay attention knows that i mean so um can you for at least for americans because a lot of us here it's not fci so uh tell tell my listeners what's a seat really is um so first uh that's it is is a title by the fci and um it's it's a working working champion title so it means if you go to to a competition what is um saved by the fci for the satzit title you can um get uh get uh this satzit card for first or second place of for the best from your breed and if you collect two of the satzit titles and your dog has uh a minimum a very good in an international show yeah exterior then you send this to uh your club to your fci club and uh you can get um the the title international working champion and in the moment in in the world it's it's it's not so well known but most people don't know it in czech republic this satzit competition exists since years and it's it's very very popular a lot of successful uh dog handlers uh competed there and one year later they are getting world champion at the fci or fmbb um so it's a very famous competition there in czech i was there first time last year that's what made you do that right yes um i i would make the first place there and for me it it was yeah it was really a wonderful a wonderful competition and i was thinking okay i must bring it to germany and yeah after this i decided um and it was successful we we we had the idea about the golden league yes tell me about this one because that's a very that that i mean it's already a very good uh uh progression of where it's going so um at the moment you have uh three such it competitions in the golden league

uh first of course it's uh the such it in czech republic in dobrik um braunz petra in germany and uh poland um it's uh this uh this mad box competition uh what the name in the in the last years and um this three competitions belong to the golden league and there is a pointing system behind and for the first 10 places you got points it's a little bit like in the formula one yeah yeah yeah and at the end you collect your points and when the year is over this guy or this girl with the most points win the golden league and okay okay this is this is the first year we started it right now um of course it's not everything finished right now so it's it's just in the beginning but i think it could have a big future oh i agree i agree i agree 100 i mean it's already created so much interest you because it's it is within fci regulation so you are playing the igp by the fci uh rulebook correct yes it's correct absolutely the reason i'm thinking is i i just somehow hope that we like the the sport community can eventually do something about it and stop the some of the changes that are put on us without without ever even consulting the people that actually play in the sport it's just all of a sudden some two people decided okay well we will change the rules and from tomorrow this is what we do and i i i think that you know people that are spending so much time years in the sport we should have some kind of allow for some kind of input and not always be dictated because some of the some of the rule changes are really just to me at least don't make much sense um what do you think with that it's a it's a big thing here in in europe and especially in germany um in the in the in the the normal people the normal people are um influenced by more and more by people that don't have the idea about the sport don't speak the truth about training a dog and it's it's something like our the the human being getting more and more um away from the reality in in this part because of course it's it's nice to hear um famous people in television or in social media um speaking about um that you can everything do in a positive way with with the animal yes and the way we say it in the states is everything is rainbows and unicorns yes and um they believe it they really believe it and it's it's the the idea i the idea himself is so nice so it's it's not about that um you and or me are interesting uh to make to make pain on our

models for sure not we are interested to make clear situation black and white everything what's necessary to uh that the dog the dog learns very fast what are the rules yeah and um of course um it's an animal and um i i i feel sometimes like here in germany the the um this is famous people uh one that every dog uh must wear a harness and every dog can't sleep in the kennel he must sleep in your bed and uh it makes me very very very sad when i hear this and it's frustrating because because it has gone so far that it's almost and i hope i'm wrong but it's almost impossible to try to bring some sense back to to to everybody there is a whole new generation of of people that do some dog training that are very confused right now in europe because of that yeah and um we must understand why it is like this and of course it's because um this sells very good and it's it's it's a business thing so this people or the one guy here in germany for example who make a lot of stress against the schutzum community um he earns his money that people come into his schools and pay for every hour of training what you take in the club for the whole year that's the difference yes and um um i'm a businessman and i understand how it works and of course for him it makes totally sense to to explain to the people don't go to this bad clubs of the german shepherd or of whatever of the dvg don't go there people are bad to their dogs they come to my dog training school and you will learn how to teach a dog in only the positive way that's i know it's a market of those people it's it's 100 market and and even with all the studies that they're done and all the animal veterinary behaviorists and all this they have hijacked the dog training and all of a sudden they have announced themselves that they are the people that know what dog training is and how it should be done and and and most of them have not even trained dogs they just scientists they don't know how to train dogs it's it's not a you know like you can have a a very good doctor that doesn't mean that that doctor is a good parent with their kids it's just a very good doctor being a parent it's a different skill set and and it's the same with dog training but um somehow i don't know why i i i'm sure it's because it's in the states and people here are a little bit more not so willingly following what somebody on top says of the government or whatever they we are a little more like why you know and in europe some like in the 2000s in the early 2000s when that whole

movement starts to creep in everybody used to think that oh well they're just talking we're gonna still be able to do what we do and nobody stand up at that time which it could have been easier to to battle this you know what what what you need for it you need a good connection you need a lobby and uh you know you must know how um to speak with the right people and um i still know a time it's more than 10 years ago that um the the the dog community in germany the breeding clubs or the vdh it's um it's an organization uh under the fci has um has always a year in the ministry and has always a year in in in the uh in the government uh um this time is over uh this people um nobody cares of them and uh in the government they don't listen to these people and why they don't listen because these people don't do their job in the last uh 10 15 years yes they they take um um they take the time to to save um maybe their position their position exactly that's exactly what it was and uh there is there is no idea what to do for for making a lobby in the government for that what we do and this is the difference to this uh to this people um from the other side they exactly do this and in today's age is it makes it so difficult because everybody is so quick to browse and scroll and swipe and you know you nobody uses their brain anymore so when you're presented with this very quick you're using are you a good or a bad person are you using corrections or are you not and you have no time to even explain and then that whole momentum goes and i think this is where the politicians get all trapped because uh on the surface when it's presented so nice it hits that soft spot on everybody's heart of course i'm a good person and nobody takes the time to really understand what we are doing and why and and it's a very very difficult battle but i think uh in in the states we we learned from what was happening in in europe and somehow at least still for now we are much more organized when in some state in some city they say oh we're gonna ban this and we're gonna make this and and a lot of trainers will actually show up at the meetings and say no no we you you have no reason and no ground to to do this this is this is this is one of the of the main things what uh brings me to to decide go out of this um um organizations and and and do something new completely on my own with my people and in in our way we are thinking with with sports people so when we do the the tzatzit competition here the first time we we do so much different we go out and make completely the entry to the stadium for free

everybody can come free entry you don't have to pay and i make so much advertisement here in the local towns and i say hey we have their stores come with your golden retrieval or whatever you have you can buy dog food you can buy this this and this and the people come and and they enjoy it and they see the sports and we have the television and yes you get the interviews you had the news the people there was there were people actually watching it was it was beautiful and ivan listen what happened it was so funny for me because we also make the live stream completely free you can you can see it everywhere for free and listen and then um you know we have bart uh yes of course that was super choice too yes and but but after some days he said yes to me he realized what does it mean for him and he called me and said oh matias what what i did i must stand up one o'clock in the night and i must speak the whole day this is not normal and i said uh yes sure but now i tell everybody that you will do it yes yes and now and now so much people from my company come to me after this competition and said to me hey matthias i'm working since 10 years for you um okay i'm a software developer i i don't understand anything about the sport but i watched the live stream and now because because of this guy um who speak all the time yes i understand what's important for you no no bart was a excellent choice for this i think uh i mean i don't know even how how that idea came to you but i'm assuming from back in time with dances with malinois when he was yes you know i mean he did such an awesome job with this no this is i mean very very smart way to approach it to to get people curious about what we do and and give them just enough understanding to where they can be involved in it it's like oh okay let me watch now the next dog and let me see if i'm getting it and you little by little you're making them interested in what we do i was super cool idea this is this is exactly uh what brings us in the last 20 years in this situation and um look when when i started in dog sport it was like okay i have a german shepherd now and the german shepherd uh need to be trained so i go to the local club i take my bicycle and drive to the local club and they are the people that was me in belgium the same way so and and this is this is how we started yeah and then what what happened today if if people owns a dog they don't go to the club they they go to the dog school they pay one time a week for one hour 50 or 100 bucks and then um they make their training and

then they go go home and that's it yeah so and the the the clubs they closed yes there's no i did i did the same i did the same i'm training with with the same 10 people since 15 years and every month somebody knocked at my door and said can i come for training and what i say no because i need my time my people need their time so i have so much so many good people going on big competitions in my small group yeah we can't we can't take new people to our club in in this situation in this situation i know that i am also responsible for this problem we have today i know it and we we must find new ways wow you just made me think i mean i feel now the same way because i i basically we have a chance i stopped even having i stopped even having a dog club i don't know at least it's been at least at least 15 years since i had like a club with with you know you you are professional in what you do and for me it's the same and you know it don't work said every week we have one new guy you must explain him the basics right it's not working for for for this level we want to compete with our dogs and um on the others on the other side it's okay but but i i felt that um i must do something um to to to to find a new way getting new people excite people yes and the the tzatzit competition um have so many ideas about this thinking and one idea was give the live stream out have somebody like bart explaining what this guy is doing there on the green that somebody who never who never see it who never understand it why he's getting for this beautiful exercise only a good it was perfect yeah yeah you know it no no again that that was that was brilliant and and and i know it's not stopping there which makes it even more exciting that was something we talked when i you said that you uh listen to my podcast with jani and i think we talked about this we we have to have a commentator we have to have people that explain and educate and it's like hey this is what you're watching just like with any other sport you have a that's how you get people hooked into that's how it's a very normal and it's not that you have to trick people you just make them understand a little bit more about a sport and then some people will be ah that's not for me but then some people will oh hold on this is interesting already how about i know now the um i don't even maybe we have to back up a little bit but but i know you and helmut riser made uh now now there is a malina club in the rsv 2000 which is very cool as well um tell me a

little more how how that happened and how um so um you know i'm i'm a dmc member since 20 years um and um um i i was so many years active there and uh we had a great time but at one moment my idea about how to to handle the people um how to to make the sport how to judge and how to make selection in breeding um my idea about it was different to a lot of other people there in this club and um yeah at the end um there was uh two parts yeah split it yes which is okay you know sometimes that's just what needs to happen it's a normal progression absolutely absolutely and of course um there was the fight um about um how to go on and we we try to uh bring our ideas um there and the the other side um try to to save the old ideas um and um in in in this times where where this big stress starts um helmut called me and said hey matthias uh why do you spend your energy into this fight yes because i i love my club i love my breed i want make things better yeah but then come uh to us uh there you have uh three hands and um you can breed uh the malinois uh in our club and my answer was how many bottles of wine you drinks this evening but but but but helmut i mean he he's already been through that same process he knows exactly where you were he's been through this struggle so much exactly and for me this this idea was it was so crazy um to bring this together as i said i said uh i would uh yeah i think about it but be honest at the beginning um for me it was like a joke yeah yeah so but but then but then i i i was thinking more and more about it and we have a first meeting um it's over much more than one year ago and um with with the board with the members of the board from the r3 and um everybody there was like um what you want here but uh some people we are open and helmut said um yeah we we must stay together we have only uh this one sport it's important we are in in the same in the same boat um everything like this it was a really good discussion and at the end i i said to them okay hey people i think it could work because you i like your ideas about breeding a working dog about making sport and um what and i like your idea what's necessary to keep on running but i i tell you first i want to save my club and if this don't work we can do it so i was

absolutely clear about this from the beginning and at the end um it don't work uh in my old club in the dmc and so i decided um i must leave this house i must build a new house for me where i can live and where i have the space what is necessary for me to expand and grow and bring new ideas to the world yes and i found this in this club so i'm really happy about this and um i'm sure if um this is a situation in the dmc where we are be uh positive for our fight and we win the fight then um it will not be the same like today because uh you you still maybe you you win the fight but you still have the old infrastructure and and sometimes and sometimes when you when you do something completely new you must start from zero you have to shut one door to open the next one yes yes that's destruction and um i i compare it a little bit um with with the big magazine newspaper companies um i have a lot of business with with this companies um 15 years ago and um the companies who understand that paper is um dying and will not exist in the same way like in the last 40 years or 50 years they are still here they are still here exactly so i'm i'm a little bit uh happy about the situation how it works of course it was real a real hard time uh not only for me also for the people uh going with me but uh at the end um it was the right yeah the right yeah is the i have an i i'm sure i have talked about this with helmut but i i don't like rsv 2000 they they don't necessarily follow the fci rule book right um there are two ways in the rsv 2000 uh you have you have you have the competition um with uh the schutzund uh it's it's outside the fci rule book and you have the competition um following the fci yes because there is also they they can uh uh send the team to fci yes yes yes and of course uh the tzatz competition is under the fci rule book so it means uh no hit with the stake and all this yeah but the rsv 2000 schutzund do they still use the stick or no yes they do still use good very good very good yes because um a lot of people don't know it um the stick hit is not forbidden in germany and it wasn't it wasn't pushed by any activists or anything no it was it was not it was only the point that uh when they changed uh some things in in the in the law um one year ago um there was something like you don't have to make pain on the dog

that's all and the stick don't make pain on the dog but of course uh the thinking was um we don't want go into discussion about it so we take it away before it goes official this was the thinking so um for me um yeah i i know i know how important in in in so much situation the stick hit is for for the working dog breed and um it's it's a pity that that we lose it but i i also understand the other side i'm i'm not 100 sure about it because at the end for me it's always this this big idea about uh that we are going one step back after another always one step back we take away this we take away this we take away yes and they are little they are very smart progression to where it's like oh we take a little something and okay well we're still okay then we take a little something uh we're still okay and then you realize 10 years later the the game is not the same anymore yeah and the first people uh discuss about the long attack right right point they say ah look it's so fast it's so dangerous so much could happen but i i i tell you i tell you i have this working dog over 300 competitions a year over 300 competitions we're making movies and there are much more much more accidents in agility yes then in igp dog sports much more and this is this is the situation yeah very excellent point yeah agility is not an easy sport on the dog that's for sure you know you know this is oh yeah this is a lot for for for the dogs it's really a lot what do you think um i mean i know i know everywhere in europe people are sport people are starting to wake up a little bit and starting to you know in in different ways and in different groups trying to bring back a little more sense and educate and and just like what you did with the sassi it and i think i think it's very important that we wish we continue to to educate and and get young people in without sacrificing and washing down the the program that we play because if we if we i cannot imagine what kind of dogs we will have if we are not able to select and breed and again like people that know what they're selecting and breeding it doesn't matter how the rules change but anybody that is from a generation after and generation after they're starting to see a different picture and they they are starting to losing what really the a a really good dog is about it's like uh you know like you have martial arts and you have it's very much the same i think with the dog sport protection dog sports you know like not every dog is supposed to do protection dog sports it doesn't matter if it's a malin or german

shepherd it's still not for everybody but the ones that like it the ones that are selected to like it they don't just like it they they're like i mean they can be 15 years old and they can be on three legs and blind and they're like please let me buy the sleeve please hit me with the stick let's play that game that i love right and that's gonna change if we don't do anything about it and also i think what's gonna change is training i think when we have this when when we bring the dog a little bit more in a dominant mindset a little bit more of like hey i'm standing my ground it's a very different touch very different skill of training and it doesn't mean that we have to beat up dogs and kick them and do that it just uh we have grown up this was 30 years ago we are evolving we are becoming so much better in dog training but to compare training a dog that does dancing or or fly ball or agility yes it's very their similarities but it's a different mindset for igp and it's like a i think the like i i really really believe this the training evolves because we learn how to manage and how to work with the dog when the dog is so pumped up and so whatever and we are not squashing them we're not making them be afraid we're just working together and that's gonna go away if we don't do anything about i know we have now in in next week we have our all breed world uh national championship it will be the very first one that i'm gonna watch without stick hits and the dogs that are in the competition even though they don't get stick hits they will get affected by the presentation because they have experienced that so we can still kind of test them if we start training dogs without stick hits from young puppies they will learn that there is nothing it's gonna they will never get into that mindset of of hey i'm i'm standing my ground what are you gonna do that's not gonna be it it will become yeah i mean the the the the way agility dog thinks it wouldn't be that much different than how uh protection igp will be for for maybe another generation of dogs it's it's hard to say what what kind of dogs uh we will have in 10 years but um of course um we we must protect this kind of dogs uh we we want stable in nerves with a lot of courage and uh dominant and uh brave and all this so um i'm i'm i'm thinking it's more and more about the breeder to to see the real dog and um you know it's because of the good training in in the last years um it's more and more difficult um to to see

the real dog to separate them yeah yes it's more and more difficult and of course um the the dog uh who wins the competition is uh very often not the dog who is good for the breeding i think one of the one of the the best dogs i i ever breed i finished with him after igp1 last year i said i don't want it i don't want it this this dog has too much from everything and um i make with him the igp1 and it was like i started training uh preparing for the exam on on sunday um i go in in hardcore training on friday with uh tracking obedience protection then next day um saturday again two times tracking in the morning then at lunch he he has a mating and in the afternoon um i make two times obedience and in the evening two times protection and then he was ready that i pass the igp1 with him on sunday and i i love this dog but this dog is not for competition yes it's not for competition and so i decided okay he he will always be on my side and but for sure i i will not bring him um to competition because it's but do you consider him for breeding because sometimes there is dogs that don't make competition but they bring something to the genetics for the breeding right he brings wonderful puppies yeah that's the point to to finish this this part was such a competition we uh we want make the three uh such a competition stable um it will be every time at the same place every time with the same organization team um this will make it um i think um from year to year much more professional um it's a a little bit like uh when you when you go um for a racing when you go to the new world thing every time the same you know it's monte carlo yes exactly and um so this this is the decision of uh the the members of the of the board from the golden league um so who are they tell me tell me about how who are the people in that right now um there is bogdan he's from poland um he's the owner of uh metbox it's a a trailer company for for the trailers and it's jada this is a guy who's the founder of the tsatsit in dobrys and he's also the guy who um has an idea about um the golden league it was it was his dream uh over years and um now after um i started with him and uh bogdan um decided uh to go with him um he said okay now it's a point we we we start with uh with the golden league um and the idea for the future is that um there are more sunset competition and um we thinking about

um a place like netherlands because then you you have something in the west for for the belgium for for the holland and for the danish people yeah there is a big dog community in there for sure yes and um um we're also thinking about uh something like um in in the north of italy um that you have uh the spanish people people from austria people from switzerland and uh on the on the right side in the east slovenia yeah yeah yeah and all this yes and um but one step after another um um i i learned in my life uh before you are going to grow um the the ground must be completely stable and um so this year um we will do everything to make the ground stable and then next year we will see i make one more day next year on the tsatsit competition that we are able to handle so is there gonna be another one this year or no no no no this year the three and um next year we are not sure we must see but at the moment um we only want the three and after this year is finished then we um we will decide and we will speak if the time is uh right is ready for maybe one now now how many malino or belgian shepherd clubs are in germany now yeah we you have the dmc dkbs bsd uh the the the belgian uh the the belgian uh berlin and now the rsv so there are five five so how do you work out qualification and and like going to fci or fmbb or or or are all clubs eligible to do or or some are not not um in the last in the last uh 30 years there was one special thing only the dmc was allowed to make competition and exams um all the other clubs are not allowed to do um exams and igp sport in this way but did they want or they didn't really have interest to do yeah some people have interest and they they use the club for breeding and for sports they go to maybe dvg or somebody else yeah yeah yeah and and and now uh the situation with rsv is a game changer because now you have you have the outlet yes and uh now it's the dmc who can make exams and it's uh rsv who can make exams for the malinois and um the sunset competition is also for the rsv members the qualification to the german championship vdh and there you can um when you are under the first five you go to the fci world championship okay we have discussion with some members of the board from from the fci working dog commission and they said um we can think about when we have one more such a competition that the winner of the

golden league uh gets a wild card to the fci world championship so it's an interesting idea but um we must see at the end um of course the the fci title or the fmbb title or the w usb title this is what what the people want to get of course they have a big history and um with the tzatzit and the golden league it's someone new on the field in the game and i think the future will show um which title is uh most interesting and of course um my room is full of this metal things here i it's like you we have tons of this um i i i don't i don't go to competition for this i don't i don't go to competition to bring this to my home because i have enough for this um i go to competition because i i want to have fun and i want to feel respect to my work to my dog to my people surrounding me and this is important for me and for for this for this for this i i don't want to go uh hundreds of thousands of kilometers to compete on a green field without nothing i don't want to go to compete um in front of a judge who is like uh bad bad bad bad bad right to to the point that it doesn't it doesn't even make sense you cannot even like what where what are we doing yeah so i would let's let's talk about this judging point because um for us at the tzatzit competition it was very important very important and i i never had a competition before as an organizer where i have so much discussion and zoom meetings with the judges of the upcoming competition and um it was speaking about the philosophy how to judge the dogs and how in in in what in what new idea the judges speak to the dog handles the the the main point is so i'm i'm a judge since um 2015 something like this and of course i'm coming from a system what goes really deep in the details and um i like this because at the at the beginning it was like a big challenge who sees more mistakes who has the better eyes who can who can um identify all the the little helps and this was was the challenge in in the last years but you see exactly this at the competitions where the judge only think about what what is wrong and don't think about what is good

and we we have a problem in our rule book and the problem is that there is um only the excellent the very good the good the good the good and you know uh befriedigend yeah sufficient insufficient yeah insufficient insufficient yeah and and the biggest problem is that insufficient and sufficient there is one missing in in my in my thinking when you go judging like this the good because if you have an exercise it's very easy to to bring this exercise in a low very good or in a good only because of some small things but then you have the dog the dog who is not well trained the normal dog and the exercise with this dog is not really nice but he he he did it he did the exercise so you know the difference now between between in this dog and and you're well done exercise with heart judging is one point and this is what we see every time on this big competition 90 percent of the of the people are between 80 and 89 points and then you have only a few in the area 91 92 and then finished nobody was excellent and i think this is wrong yeah this is this is not this is not the idea uh about our sport you know like that there was um i mean still it's like that when you have in one way you're thinking i'm thinking okay well we have two judges or we have four judges on the field it should be good right yes exactly and now what happens the judges compete against each other who sees more and who is and and and you just abuse the person and the dog that's showing because of the competition between the judges and even even with that we know we know every fmbb you will have four judges and the supervisor give collectively a wrong score to the right person in their mind it's a it's a problem it it starts uh at the philosophy of the judges and um the idea we had on the tzatzit competition was about that we say at this competition we have people who are um top sportsmen they they they competing all in world championship they are uh excellent trained dog and on the other side we have their people who who fight for the good right and in in this area you you must find a fair way and if you see the the um um the performance of knut at the tzatzit competition of knut fuchs yeah the protection it was great it was a great protection i really love it

and of course why not to give high points for this i tell you i can go there and i can judge this protection to 95 it's possible for me i find the right words for sure to make 95 points and everybody in the stadium will say aha oh yes he's a professional he see all the small details but for what it it was it was a great experience experience to see this performance yes and for sure this one of the world best performance must be in the excellent this is going back to the difference between judging agility and judging igp somehow what needs to happen and probably will never happen but it's just a dream of mine and i'm sure it's not just me to to to be able to go in or maybe it's not even supposed to be this way maybe it's really how the sport is to where we can go to a one competition with one judge and the judge is like yeah this is an excellent performance and then the other one puts you on uh 89 category for very similar performance and and as a trainer you know especially if you're new at it you get really confused like it's like okay do i change my training now do i change the dog like where where where am i standing i haven't did i haven't did you remember when when the discussion and the rules uh about the position of the hand in the basic position starts oh yeah oh yeah so it was it was like i was asking myself um a good judge see when the dog handler use his hand to help the dog a good judge see it you don't need four judges on the field one judge is enough but you must see what happens and he has to have the courage to actually point it out which is a problem too and then and then the first people started to say okay the hand must be on the at the body and for some people it looks so strange because they are small the dog is tall and then it takes a hand behind and they always this and i was thinking really this is the reason why uh people don't understand anymore our our competition and our sport exactly this is the reason keep it a little bit more natural yeah yeah we are not robotal the dog is not a robot when we're talking about judges and and and and judging do you have any judges that you really appreciate how they judge um as far as i i wouldn't say necessarily knowledge but but just being very sincere in ethical when they go on the field they're not oh well this is the person that i train with or this is the person you know i have some business with but who who who comes to mind there are a lot a lot of judges in the world i really like um it will be a lot a long list and and then maybe maybe i forget somebody and i will be sad about this so

i don't i don't tell names um but um i think there are a lot of young judges and when you when you see at the tzatzit competition all three judges um are not well known as judges of course they are well known as dog handlers very well known as dog handlers yeah but not well known as judges and this was one of the reasons for me to decide to take them and i also have in mind for the judges next year who could it be i don't speak with these people right now but it's exactly the same um people will say okay he's a judge and i don't i never heard about it yes you you you see in in the in the way they speak with the dog handlers on the field um this was so practical it was so full of respect because they know exactly they can relate to it it's like even even when you see a good dog and training and something happens and and you know it from your your heart it's like man it sucks for this person right now because i know you know and and that's the kind of people we want because judges are man judges are so important for our sport so important yeah because ultimately it's not even the breeders it's the the judges that can guide everybody and educate and and say where we are going and when when that is not there it's very easy for everybody to get lost yes and this this emotions helps us to to make our sport famous exactly this emotions it's it's a little bit you you have you have the chance in competition like this to write something like history uh in in the point that there are people like we work the the girl we we we speak about she with this beautiful um obedience um 98 it's and then she come to protection and she fail this is this is like this is like a story written down from a story writer or oh yeah that roller coaster of igp yes and exactly exactly exactly the same with knud and me we we we have um the same group so when we make the draw uh he come to me and said matthias could it be and i said oh no please not really i i i was i i was really angry about the fact that i must compete with him in the same group and he was laughing and was saying oh yeah this will be interesting uh and so it was on on the on a high level he make a great performance my dog make a great performance and uh it was uh and then it was quite yes and you have the competition and then you have the the friendship the camaraderie the respect for each other and everybody sees it and this is this is how we need to present the sport to the to the new people that's exactly what we need to keep doing yeah we we

we must we must think about what is what is necessary and for me make a good organization then you will have a nice atmosphere have good helper who are fair and absolutely clear to the dog avoiding accidents and then good judges with a very emotional speak to the handlers and when and when you bring this together for sure it will be a nice competition and people go home and say oh i had a good time i had such a good time yes and then and then after after this weekend then every day every day every day i must answer on on messages in facebook email and uh whatsapp people asking me what will be the date next year i love us from all over the world write me what i must do to be helper on this competition and this this gives me so much because it was a proof that it is still possible. That's the point. It is still possible. And I mean, one of the good things is also for the people that listening that are not part of the FCI world, such as United States or other countries, they're still welcome to show. They're not isolated. And that's also a big deal. Just about as you start to think, man, the sport is dying. Maybe we start to realize, hey, we can do something about it. We just have to do something about it. We cannot sit back. And that's kind of what you're doing. Believe me, sometimes I can't hear it anymore because there is some voice everywhere where people say the sport's dying. We're getting less, more and more. And I tell those people, yeah, a lot of things getting more and more shit, of course. But in the world, the sport is not dying. And I have the proof because I have working dog and I see it in my database. There are so much young people in Czech Republic, for example. Look at the competitions in Czech Republic on the podium. My God, girls and boys under 30 years. It's very inspiring. And it's the sport, the sport getting less people in countries like Germany. Yes, it is like this, but in other countries it grows. And we must understand that the situation we're speaking about at the beginning of our interview. You start in a club, you go there with a bicycle. I start in the local club, I go there with a bicycle three times a week. I think this is in this way, it's finished. And we have today a new kind of sport. It's getting more and more international. And we must protect this community. We must do something that this community stay together. We must do something that we are in the world, we must do something that we are good people, that we are not stupid people,

making shit with their dogs. We take care about our dogs. Our dogs got the best care, what you can expect. We spend so much money in them. We go to the best doctors. We go to the best physios. We do everything what is necessary. And we don't care about spending money in our animals. And it's not just the money, but we also do the best we can every single day to get better. Yes. Like better than today, better than yesterday. Okay, yeah, you can judge me today, but I'm trying to be better. And I will be better. You know, every, all of us have that desire to, to improve. And, and when we talk about, well, don't give me examples of what training used to be 20 years ago, 30 years or 40 years. Things have changed. Are there any shitty people that do stupid things to dogs? Of course. Are they going to exist? I'm sure they will. But that's not the majority of, of the people that are in the sport. We really, we're really educating and improving by the day, by the hour. And it's amazing to, to, but at the same time, very frustrating when I talk, especially with, you know, I talk on my podcast. Sometimes I like to invite people that are all, you know, wanting to ban electrical or whatever and, and try to get with their reasons why. And they always will give me this example. Well, I used to be one of these trainers 30 years ago. I'm like, well, 30 years ago, if you were to go in a dentist's office, it's going to look very different than today. You know, like go today and see how they do. Or I mean, just because you have a bad experience with one trainer 30 years ago, it's so wrong to make this total conclusion of, and put everybody in the same situation. It should be more interested in the people that actually do this excellent training. And it's like, well, how do you do that instead of trying to pick on them and say, oh, but you're doing this and that, that war somehow needs to stop between us. And you, you must, the people must recognize that our dogs, they have a genetic, genetically, they have insight that they need to be in this kind of activity. Yes. This, this dogs are breeded for over 100 years. Selected. For this kind of genetic. And you can't say from yesterday to today, we stop giving this kind of dogs, breeded for protection, breeding for, for tracking. Breeded it for all this work. We, we, we can't stop it from yesterday to today. It's not good for the animal. It's not good for the healthiness of this, of this, uh, dogs. So in, in this, in this position, it's in, in my opinion, it's totally necessary to explain that this is the best way to give.

To this kind of dogs, a really good life. Yes. In balance. It's a purpose. It's a meaningful life. Imagine if you just walk on a flexi around your block of apartments every day and you eat this quality food. What, what kind of life is that for a dog? Like, or, or for a person. We all need to feel that we can accomplish. We need, we like a little challenge. We like to overcome it. We feel somebody, you know. And, and this is, uh, the whole force free community as, as much as they don't like me saying this, it's, if you don't give the dogs any kind of outlet, even if they are not selected for it. If the dog likes to, and, and, you know, like they have to have a purpose. If they don't have a purpose, what happens? Because we end up with dogs with all sorts of problems and then the animal shelters get full and people get rid of their dogs. And simply because we eliminate and we don't allow them to have an outlet. Like this is the difference with humans. Like if we think of some analogy like this, you would have a kid. you can either put him in some martial arts and become very confident and very good, productive in society or he can go on the street and do exactly the same thing and go completely different way and end up in jail. Exactly. And if you have a kid that is full of power has so much energy then of course sent him to football sent him to karate sent him to boxing because he can expand his power there but he learned rules. Yes. And with this combination the child learns to be part in the society with this energy. And bring something to it. And exactly the same is with the working dogs with the Rottweiler the Dobermann the German Shepherd the Malinois the Ertel Terrier it's the perfect the perfect thing for these dogs. I think this is where we need to all of us we need to continue to keep talking to everybody and educating and not really going into confrontation and fights with people but really explaining why this is okay and not just okay but why this is important. Ivan it's a little bit like in the in our community you have to learn to accept the thinking of other people. Yes you really and and some people have the gift for that I had to learn it. I'm like oh I know what you're saying it's like no I don't know what you're saying I need to shut up and listen sometimes you know because that's it's so important to be able to listen to each other it's so important. For me it's exactly the same 10 years ago more than 10 years ago after working dog getting more and more successful I started to

make a copy of it for the horses it was in 2010 and I realized that the community of the horse sportsmen and breeders is very similar but on another level. of course and I got in joint venture with a big big company for newspapers in Germany and they come to me and I said okay we have news we have four newspapers or four magazines for the horse sports and they are dying and you started with this nice idea and one of our manager of the board he's a dogs man and he know your website working dog and he tells us when this guy makes the same for horses it will be so popular also and so we want we want to make a joint venture with you and I did it they spent millions of euros in our joint venture yeah yeah and it was such a crazy time because at this time my company has about 30 people so my own company in Halle has about 30 people and I built up this new company for horses with them on a completely different place in Germany and it was three days working in my company three days working in this company driving this car every week I grow up this new company for horses to 10 people and I bring this website to the market and it was so much stress and the biggest thing was that we are under the roof of this big magazine house over a thousand people are working this and there you have like in yeah like in big company it's structure yeah yeah yeah yeah every whoever worked in company like this no you spend 70% of your energy every day into the work and 30% you must spend into politicians into politics yeah and for me it was so hard at the beginning because I was always my own boss right and you have some idea but then you have to run that idea by everybody and they have to agree exactly why to why to discuss about it because this idea is brilliant I want to keep it running and one of my my teacher there in this time very well experienced businessman he said to me oh my god Matthias you are like a bulldozer in the in the in the in the wood and in this time I I learned to step back listen not always agree for sure but this is I think this is a very very important thing for our community oh it's a quality that

it's a very difficult but it's a very important one and I you know how I said in the beginning like you're really good at the like you like the business you see things and and to do that you have to be able to listen because otherwise it's not like you will you will miss opportunities you will miss you know like it's just not yeah it's not a smart thing so so the so where is the horse where is that standing today it's the world's most successful website for horses cheers to you man yeah but I decided in 2013 2014 to sell my options on this company today I'm not sure if I did it again like this but in the situation for me this was only a business yeah you know I like horses but I don't love them and so it was like okay the situation is good and I decided to sell my options I'm still I'm still something like a service company for them we help in development and administration but it belongs today completely to this big media house and yeah it's history and it's a worldwide yeah this times helps me also to to to have new ideas for for our dog sport community it it's always good to to to look at the whole sport because they are much more professional and yes at the end at the end they have the same problems like we exactly the same problems they have the people out there fighting against the horse trainers and it's completely the same but for them a lot of things are much more easier because in the government you have some horse people but you don't have some IGP dogs for people for sure yes yes that's the difference and and whenever they it's just they have a little not a little they have much more opportunities as far as money to where they can if if they really have to they can get lobbies they can get attorneys they can you know high end to where they can defend their rights to work with horses for sure at least in the dog world forget about horses and dog people to unify but in the dog world we can have different interests we can have different clubs we can you know this is normal human qualities sometimes we get along sometimes we don't get along sometimes we need to step away and do something else but there is a bigger picture and there is a really bigger enemy towards all dog training and in that sense we have to find a way to work together against that and that's not easy that's not easy you know when we were talking like how where is a can even stay in everything like I always kind of curious about how can even

comes in can even was the idea idea to create a platform to organize events like exams competitions seminars and all this and it starts with you can make advertisement for your competition when you put it inside people can make registration there very easy yes all the forms yeah very true we use it we use it you know and I always I always struggling with competitions when they don't use can even and I must fill out some paperwork and write in the chip number of my dog it's it's a hustle I hate it really and with the can ever system it's so easy and at the end you promote your competition because when I make registration with my dog and I'm on the competitor list of this competition you can see it on working dog you can see this dog will participate on this competition this dog handler will participate on this competition and this brings also advertisement to the competition and for sure at the end you have a payment system in Haniva that means I remember in past it's a big thing for example in agility it's not a special thing if you have an exam with 100 dogs or 100 starts it's normal there and with Haniva you can make the payment for the starting fee completely electronically and you don't have to collect it manually from the people yeah no it's super cool like I remember when it first came it was a little confusing like what do we do with it but then once you once you use it it's like okay yeah this is totally makes sense it simplifies things and it's worth it what about your like I I'm always interested in like all the laws and the legislations and is there anything new that you know of coming up in Europe that they're trying to to do against dog sports or nothing at the moment because you know how in the first of January there was a big problem with the police and the electric colors and what is next this this is the big question and at the moment at the moment nobody knows what is next because nobody has the connection to the important points in the government and I am sure there will be something and only the naive and stupid people think now it's finished it's not there are people in the background fighting so hard for the next big thing maybe private people are not more allowed to make protection trade something like this I don't know and

this is the point where I'm real afraid about that we don't know it and that our infrastructure and our our clubs don't have access at the moment yes very true because it seems like it always comes as a surprise at the very last moment where everything is pretty much decided and you have no chance to make a case against that anymore you know how it works people who are active in political maybe we make it very simple for example you are living in a village and in this village you have the governor and you have people are active in this village who are responsible for the streets ideas about what to do for the kindergarten oh our school needs something new blah blah blah what is necessary to keep the system on running and these people are active in politics they go there one time a month they discuss they decide they vote and at the end you see the result if you are only living in this village without any connection into this group where the decisions are made you will ever always be surprised about the new things yeah but these people they know about it since three years because decision in politics take so long and at the moment we have nobody who goes there this is what we need in the past we have it in the past the right people from the weedy age sitting in the government going to this to this conferences and make discussion this people today don't do it this people today say what they did and they don't even ask us can you imagine yes I can imagine move your ass it's your job make lobby work for our sport you got paid for this this people don't come and ask you you must go there and work for it so how can we change it how can we convince the people that are on the board of any working commission or whatever we want to call them this three four five six people in different organization that they need to actually become proactive and defend us because that's why they're really this is why they're there it's not possible that's disappointing but not surprising unfortunately right okay it's I can't I can't go in details but exactly what we are talking right now takes so much brain work for me in the last years to understand how we can fix it and at the end we must accept that

it's not possible to react to in this infrastructure in our clubs this kind of making lobby work it's because of this infrastructure in this yeah yeah that's how the machine moves right now yes yes so I have I have I have I have a solution for this since last year I'm working with a small group on this since last year we met every month and speak about the next steps and it's completely out of any official things it's completely hide it until now and over the next month for sure and there will be a day it will not be tomorrow or in two days that we come to public and when we come to public everything will be perfect to make this happen and solve this problem we have right now wow that's a little bit I know it's now a shit situation but definitely don't give anything away it's just very comforting to know that you know somebody's trying somebody's working on it and maybe there is other people working on something similar and even though we are not working together you know but we have to we have to for me it's always nice to see when people out there try something new and try to do something for the sport for the community I respect this and I'm totally happy that more people won't do something and I don't go out and say this will not be successful with it I don't do it because I can't know we need to try so much ways and at the end nine of ten will don't work and one will work and we need ten people doing ten different ways to have this and maybe my idea also don't work I don't know it right now I believe in it and I'm thinking the basic of my idea is going out of the bubble it don't make sense to get stronger inside the bubble we must go out of the bubble and there was a really nice situation I must speak about it because it's a good example for every organizer they must listen exactly to this right now in every competition or in every big championship in Germany it is totally normal that you ask for local politicians in most

in the most situation it's the local governor mayor of the town and it's always the same they come at the beginning and they come at the end our guy comes in the middle on Saturday when the stadium was full and at one o'clock after lunch it was the big greatest atmosphere in the stadium it was not the end ceremony where the most people are nobody paying attention anymore yeah yeah yeah very smart it was in the middle and then he goes around and he was looking and he was saying my god I never see this too room so much people here in my town wonderful and these dogs look what they do please explain me he don't know nothing about our sport and then we explained and then Dirk Adler the judge of the protection he said to me give him a slot right now Dirk what do you mean give him the microphone he we make a short break for two minutes he go on the field and he should say hello to the people what okay we make short pause he got the microphone he goes on the field and he said hey dogs people it's very organic very natural and at the right time yes and then he said it's so nice to see you here it's so beautiful this competition and I hope you come again next year and the most and this guy he make oh look they like me I'm famous so this is important for politicians for sure and after the competition we talked and he said how can I support you next year what can I do and this is such a small thing yes and it's very again it's at the right time with the right idea and it's not like it's not like he had to prepare some fake speech on paper and it's like no no I'm talking to you people and I'm getting that back the same way Ivan you know it every time it's a ceremony or it takes so long and then the local politician come and blah blah blah this is very smart and hopefully people that listen around the world it's a smart way to enter that that interaction is very natural at the right moment between the government and and the dog people beautiful and now you have you now you have a politician guy who's well connected in this area and he knows about the sport and imagine next time there will be discussion about new laws about new what to change against us you can go to him you can say hey can you help us and for sure he will because he knows that these are serious people

that it is nice atmosphere nice sports fair to the animal and this we need no this is this is what we really need and it's so much better than going to his office and trying to convince him of something it doesn't work that way it never works that way this is how lobby lobby work must go on we must speak about our sport we must go out of the bubble showing the people outside they never heard about our sport what it means making IGP sport and we have you know it we have a marketing problem about what we talking IGP IPO Vielseitigkeit Schutzund what is this why yeah tell me why the people did this in the last 20 years why it's exactly like when I changed the name of working dog every five years it don't make sense no this is mind blowing I mean how many times we've changed this for no reason for for actually of course there are reasons if you ask them but it's the wrong reasons it's just trying to play along and submit to instead of saying hey no this is what we do this is not bad we don't need to change we don't need to pretend that it's something and it's just as you said how many times if you change anything like I change my kennel name to something else you change working dog I mean you don't have identity you're nobody forever you know how hard it is to build up a brand it's so much work and it's so much money to build up a brand and when you have this brand you must save it you must keep it you must praise it honestly right now I'm trying to even think what IGP stands for yes exactly I mean gosh like come on people enough politics I think we this is this has been very cool stuff tell me tell me on personal like what is the kind of dog like what kind of dog you like to train like what is your type of dog when you see some dog and you're like okay that's my kind of dog in the past normally I was always starting competing with a female it was for me yeah this hole from Holzer floor that was my first biggest success where I make the second place on the world championship 2013 yeah Joseph Adam Mushkin he make first we have the same points and he had the better protection then after after Holle I have my working dog Bredana I was one time VDH champion in 2017 competed so often with her on world championships and yeah now it's a male it's Ash Ash yeah and how old is he yeah he's now seven okay and

it's it was really a pity because he was finished when he was two and a half so he I was so fast with him and then I have my first national competition and I make he was even not three years I make first place with amazing points and I was thinking with with this dog with this dog I will reach my goal and maybe I can make something like a world champion yeah this was my hope in this time and then you know what happened Corona comes Corona comes and this fucked me up so hard because when Corona was over he was almost five and I really did nothing in this two years I was really lazy in dog sport I okay we have training but you have no target right right for what to train so it in this time I spent much more time in breeding and when Corona was finished I have exactly two years after my first competition the successful competition with him I had the first one again and I have excellent in tracking and I have excellent in obedience and it was like I'm doing it again and then in the protection he comes through the blind and make pom and everybody said oh and I don't hear him barking and I know okay something gone gone wrong and what was happened at this time really a lot of people trained with me a lot of people who has dogs from my kennel and the last training it was two or three days before and I was making helper work for everybody and at one o'clock in the night when we was finished I take my dog out for protection so totally stupid but I don't think about the other people don't think about and then I make real a bad sink it was a mistake for me it was not a mistake from the dog and he has a wrong combination in his head because I work at the blinds for making the short ways with the ball in the blind and then we put the ball on the other side in the blind and we don't recognize that the ball is on the wrong side and every blind he come without the ball out and I was so angry of him and I said what you're doing take the ball yeah yeah yeah it's it's a must he don't want this shit ball he must do it to go to the helper so he come every time without the ball and I was so angry and I make force to him and I said come on come on do it and this may disturb him in this situation he don't understand it for sure it was my mistake right and then I checked I checked oh shit somebody put the ball on the wrong side so exactly on this side he don't look

right right and this this he takes to the competition and he comes around and he only said I must be right so I I'm taking something but he don't take the ball he take the helper and this was it cost me so much points that I don't get the qualification on the German championship and I lose two years of Corona and now one year because this stupid shit and then after this competition all my people who trained with me make first second third and fifth place wow and I was so down I was so down because I didn't pass and then my father come to me and said hey what's going on and I explained him and I said I'm so angry about my team why they don't help me in this situation I was the last one I do all the protection work with them and then he said to me stop with it why you are angry with your team it's your fault you are the leader of your team you make bad organization and now stop this and be happy of your team because today they are successful and I was like yes he's right I switched my mood and my mind and then it was really a nice weekend I just got goosebumps listening to this this is tough one man it was a hard exercise for me you can't believe me I've been there one time I remember with it was with Kenny it was the year before I won the world championship and I don't know I don't know was it FCI or FNBB but it was in Holland and he didn't just bite he he actually beat so hard that he moved the whole blind and the helper and the blind fell down so and then he let go and then he started barking I mean but that's the dog sport too you know that's kind of in a way why we I think it's in a way why we do it and why we like it because there is still that thing between you and the dog and the dog sometimes can just be the dog and say fuck it this is what I'm doing exactly and this is the point where you think hey I am a real professional and then you come and your dog said not today yep I'm a dog it's good that we can laugh about it but I know at the moment it's it's just it's a crash it's like it's just a yes yes and it's it's always it's always like everybody has his part where he's strong and everybody has his part where he's really

good and it changed from dog to dog so for me I do it like you so many years I'm always I'm always afraid about the track so my last four or five tracks where always excellent I make four times 100 in exams with with ash but again when I go to the tracking field in the exam I'm still nervous yes I can't stop it because because you're walking behind watching yeah and in track there are always so much things you that can be out of your control yes yes so which is your favorite like if you have a I mean you're right it depends on dog to dog like I know like right now I have a young one that's not even two years old he is a genetic freak when it comes to tracking like I I I mean I was busy trying to prepare for FMBB until my dog had the injury and we got out so I'm like okay well he's I can put him to wait a little bit so maybe four months I haven't done nothing I take him out and I do a track and it's not even any tracking food I mean just randomly like I could care just like okay let's do something with him and it's so different when the dog has this talent and and it's like you know some dogs are tracking they're on the track and some dogs are in the track like with their mind they're like and I I don't know I'm sure there will be some difficulties and and I still will stress about tracking because of that as we're talking it's out of control but I know that it's such a good feeling to know that the dog has this natural talent for it but like if you take on equal basis any dog what is your favorite part of the sport it's a protection protection yeah it's a protection because it's the real character of okay who are you right yeah yeah and for sure because I'm I'm I'm also a helper I love helper work and for me I I like dogs who are so strong in protection for me for me it's okay when when the dog is not so good in obedience then then for me I can yes I can agree with it I learn him the basics and for me it's okay if he's not the fastest not flashy right yeah yes it's okay but in protection I won't see grip and I won't see speed and I won't see a dog who do something on the help and this is also what I breed most of my dogs are

in this really really good they have some problems in obedience some people are telling me could be more drive forces but they work in another way they are like yeah yeah I know what you mean it's hard for me to explain in English for no I know what you mean it's more of a like like the classic you know Belgian ring kind more primitive dog with natural abilities of like okay this is this is protection this is important this is who I am and then yes they will do obedience for you but they don't see the it's not a border calling mentality right it's not the let's do this yes and Brudena for example was exactly this kind of dog Brudena my second litter I take her from all these puppies because she was for me most impressive as a young dog or as a puppy where I think okay this will be really nice working dog and then I stopped training with her and in protection from the first day it was so easy to make really something great with her she was powerful but in obedience I was dying I was dying she was nine months old or ten months old and I was not able to teach her the healing she was not interested in food she was not really interested in the ball it was like okay yes and I was thinking about myself that I'm not able to teach a dog the healing and it was I remember in 2014 I was at the championship in Finland I don't know was it the FMBB I think so yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and there I was with my Holle and I met there Karl Heinz Kries he was competing there and I know him for sure before well-known dog handler since years here in Germany and I speak with him and I said hey you were the guy with this touch this thing you make yes I have a young dog and she's really nice but in protection but in obedience I'm dying I guess I should explain to everybody that listens I mean Karl Heinz he had a it's it's basically like a very smart way of training the dog with a like a target to where it places it and then the dog kind of makes the attention but it puts a very clear picture of what to do exactly yes so you have the target on your side and every time the dog hits the target it makes a sound and of course you give reward for the sound and it's very clear because it also works with frustration if the dog makes sound

beep beep and you don't give reward he gets frustrated and make more more more yes exactly and then we started to train together in 2015 2016 and Carl Heinz he was I always say he was my last big mentor and I make protection for his dog and he helped me to getting into the next level and I said to him look at this dog we make no obedience yeah and he was looking and he said oh Matthias you competing on world championship I'm not sure if this dog is enough for you because she don't want make healing not enough drive why you keep her I said I said to him yeah wait we make no protection and after protection he said to me okay I understand I love it so and then he said okay it makes sense to spend time to try yes yes and one and a half year later or two years later I got German champion and with this dog now now comes the story with this dog on every competition I got an excellent in healing wow yeah it was the most worst exercise for her it was the hardest to train and at the end on every competition I make excellent in this in the heel work so and this is this is the kind of dog I like for me it's okay when I I must spend more energy from my side into the into the obedience but in the protection I want the real one yeah the natural one yeah does is Carl Heinz is he doing anything now or yeah he he want to compete at the tzatzit competition but his dog gets sick two weeks before and he called me and said shit and I'm trying to fix it but he was not fit enough and so he decided don't compete he was there the whole weekend and we called this afternoon and he said to me Matthias for sure next year I want to compete I heard from everybody that everybody wants to compete so you must save for me a place awesome wow and speaking of which how does it that's a good question about the you have to limit it at some point to certain number or how is it going to work so Bart said to me two days ago Matthias you must find a way that 300 people can compete I said Bart it's not possible because we need tracking and he said yes you stupid IGP people stop it with tracking you don't need it yeah yeah yeah this is a good question Ivan and I'm honest I don't have an answer yet for it I know I know so many people

won't compete next year the competition in Czech Republic they grow up to 70 starters and it was booked booked out in 20 hours something like this wow and I'm not sure we make one day more that we can have 100 competitors next year but I'm sure there are much much more who won't go there it also starts to be very difficult on the judges you know for so many days to stay focused like I know I also I'm a judge and I know myself like there is no way I can judge to a certain point but my brain checks out like I would not be able to so protection is your thing it makes sense it makes sense because it's I mean when you think about it IGP ultimately yes it's three phases yes it's it's but protection is the the essence of it it really is that's the point and this is think now three hours back when you asked me how did it start yes for me it starts at the moment I take the sleeve on and make protection with a nine year old German shepherd the first time and I remember it like it was one hour ago when I I take the sleeve here and I don't see the dog when he's coming here it was skipping a bit yes it was such here look I this is the emotion I feel about it and this is my life and now you know why I want protected right I can't imagine doing IGP sport without the part of protection I can't imagine then it's for me not my sport anymore right so and or or the very washed down type of protection that you don't really it's not protection anymore it's playing frisbee it's just it's just going through the behaviors without the emotion and the showing character anymore very true how soon do you start like do you have any what is your typical like I know with me I I I'm just so I I'm very I don't have structure with my training at all people sometimes think that I am because I train professional and whatever that there is always but I'm I'm freestyling big time like if sometimes I could start a puppy at four weeks I mean four months or eight weeks or a year old and like where are you with this like as far as training how how how often how soon do you start them I'm very lazy at the beginning and this always kills me when I see on YouTube or Facebook other people showing what their dogs do with eight months

then I get really in depression yes the YouTube champions yes and I'm thinking in this situation oh man Matthias raise your ass up go out to the kennel take out the dog and do something no you must I'm really at the beginning I'm so lazy okay I do the basics sit with food but it's really yeah not in this way a lot of other people do but at the end there comes a point I think it's when the dog getting about one and a half year then for me it switched and then I start to be doing a lot and then I'm always wondering where all these dogs are I saw one year ago on YouTube or on Facebook and maybe I have no result in my head about this maybe it's I don't know maybe it's not good to do so much when the dog is young I can't I have no idea about it I can't explain but I see very often good exercises good training from unknown people with young dogs they make perfect dumbbell work even with six months I was thinking like oh my dog never see a dumbbell in his life and he's one year I think about this sometimes too and I ask everybody when I talk to Mia and Yanni and they were here for a month we trained together and it was cool way back when I started it was very important not to start young because trainers at the time were just very too hard it was very different style of training and you cannot do this kind of shit to five month old puppy and and then things change then we change a little bit of training and we were like well puppies are still it's not that they don't have brains they still can do things and we know and just as you say you can have a six month old puppy that can do a lot of things if we do it intelligently I think I think there are benefits but even when you look at how how we said like yeah it's a youtube champion but then what happens when when he should be three years old where is that dog again and I think happens a lot with kids too like the parents decide no you will play tennis five times a week and at the moment the kid is old enough to say you know I used to like tennis but I'm done with it and there is that risk you know to burn a puppy by doing so much and demanding so much for a brain that's not ready and so I kind I think similarly to you I find that and

I have to be careful how I say this because I do I definitely do things with puppies but in all reality where I am today with my training I realize that I can accomplish so much more when the dog is older even if I start from scratch simply because the dog is a little bit more mature and understands why we're doing what we're doing if that makes sense instead of being a puppy and okay I'm doing these things but I don't kind of know what I'm doing so I yes I do things with puppies just to keep their interest but I'm very very careful not to be so demanding to a puppy and in fact if again kind of being lazy is a good word and sometimes I think it becomes with experience and age and realizing that you're not missing that much and I truly believe that you have a dog that's a little bit more mature and that varies of course of the individual dog but you know being a year old or 15 months old or even a two year old when I'm teaching him something totally new I think they put it more in the right context understanding and it comes just as fast and you all of a sudden realize that oh I didn't really miss the boat and that's kind of you know I guess I I mean you have different dogs too like some some there is puppies that are five months old or six months or seven months old and you know they are grown up they actually see it like they recognize oh oh you're looking at me kind of different I can show you who I am to where you have another puppy that is like okay I'm gonna bark at you but I don't see you as a threat you know and I think we have to recognize that I was yeah as I said I mean Yanni bomb with his new dog very very cool dog and he's so young and he has already I think he's gonna get IGP3 any day I mean he's totally ready to do anything then Mia was here at the same time her dog is the same age and she's like no no I have to take my time and I think that's the beauty of our sport to where we all feel different just like when you said with it depends on the dog exactly it depends on the dog for sure also on the dog handler but also for the most part on the dog yes yeah it's just like you know when you listen to to Knut talking about Clem at that time he was six months old and he was like I'm ready my dog Django at the time you know was at 2000 or what he was the youngest dog in competition he wasn't even three years old he was second at FMBB with one point difference between me and Knut it's like we shouldn't and this is important for trainers that are starting not to judge oh look at him he's ready should be there like you have to recognize who you are working is the dog ready and how much can you

ask before you cross that line because once that line is crossed it's hard to bring the dog back I think and it's a very cool thing to be able to recognize and sometimes take your time but then there is the other risk on the other side that okay well the dog is already four years old and you're still taking your time like really taking your time and then who knows what just like COVID comes or something happens and you're thinking that you have that two-year window of opportunity but life and you're and you have to start over it's a tricky game okay what what what happen always I I see it every time you have a dog on competitions in different generations so at the moment when you're when you're looking at the dog from Clued or my dog Ash they are in the end of the career age and there are some dogs now who are better in performance and technique but without this experience so at the moment when when you look at Ash I started to train him seven years ago right seven years ago with my experience and with the way to train before seven years and of course since in the seven years a lot changed and when I see at my youngest dog this circa from Holzhäuser Flur she made now this litter with 16 puppies wow and she will be my next dog for competition I make BH with her at the end of last summer and I started with her in IGP one and she's now I think not finished but she will finish this summer in IGP three and then she gets in heat at the beginning of the year and I decided okay I make a litter before I go with her on competition so I did the litter is now here and the puppies are going away in a few weeks or a few days and then I will compete or will go on with her in training and I will compete with her starting at the end of the year and when I see her training it's on a new level in different ways so I for sure I did watch out so much on things I don't recognize six or seven years ago like making the zits and directly the ears and like this and making the plats and directly the ears and making this and I did it from the first beginning with her and for sure she is now not perfect because she's young and not finished but in one or in two years she will have the better technique than right now and this is what always happens in competition

the new people come the new generation come with better technique but less experience and when they have a hard tracking than you are with your old dog on the better side the consistency yes it's better for you and this is easy then this young generation have the better chance and of course if you have a dog seven years eight years it's the end of the career and you see it also in the things you must do with the dog of course I prepare Ash completely in another way for the competition than I did it three years ago it's not necessary to explain him every something yes it's only it's only about he must be in good condition and he must be happy wanting to wait yes yeah true this is another cool part of the sport you know knowing learning how to manage the young dog in competition versus the five year old versus the seven year old and not do the same thing because they don't want the same thing there's got to be something that was my whole like I you know with eyes the same like I had the COVID I had bunch of family problems and it just it was a big struggle and he's seven and a half but he was in the best place in his sport career for that FMBB and and the key to that was even though you know we like it's so hard when you have everybody around you with younger dogs and they're training every day and you're like no I don't need to train every day like I really shouldn't be training every day because you have to keep that spark that flame of I want to with the older dog especially when things are there is nothing to problem solve and this is where you know like when again like your dog Knud's dog all the older dogs when they are able to perform this is a long term strategy of being able to maintain it going back to the example that I was giving with the kids that are very talented to play tennis but then the parents just burn them out before they are 16 years old and they don't want to touch a rocket anymore tracking is becoming more and more difficult to find places even in Germany now no depends of the region in East Germany it's brilliant like every time I go in there I'm like I need to take a two week vacation and just oh you have so much space for this year and the farmers are not so they're okay right so we have for the whole competition we have two fields wow that's all it's so huge here in our area and

the good thing it's the same for everybody okay for sure one day it was a little bit more windy sometimes it rained okay but the field was the same and that's good that's important I think yes trucking is every once in a while when I hear well we have to take trucking away like if we take trucking away it will change the sport again like the beauty of our sport is because of the three components that are so different if you take away the tracking the completely sport will change and it will not be the same the question is can the tracking be in another way like like the KMPV area searches and stuff right for example and okay we are international guys you come around you have contact to people all over the world for me it's the same and and I understand for a guy from China or for some young people living in urban cities this is a big shit yeah for me I'm here in my house I'm living in a village I'm not living in a city and when I go down one one one stair then I can take my dog and ten meters in front of my house there's the first field that's not fair here I have a field and there I have a big green for horses I can search on grass so for me it's easy yeah but for a lot of people it's not look at the at the field at the tracking field at the FMBB right now yeah this was crazy and you know you can have you can have a real good dog but in this point it's a lot about luck but I hope I hope I really hope that tracking stays because it's important that protection stays the challenges and tests a little bit the dog and tracking shows such an important quality of a dog that can switch drives and show you natural talent and you always recognize just like in protection and in obedience you recognize the natural talent or the training and when you have the training and the natural tunnel you're like you know as a judge as a spectator you're just enjoying it gets you motivated to go back and train when you see it in that excellent form in Florida very difficult with tracking we yes I believe we have to like right now it's already above 30 degrees and like we went it's it's not easy and I remember when I was in Italy at the world championship I had with me a young female I was competing there with Bredana and with this young female I make some training during the competition and I was on grass and I put my

food there and something like 20 minutes later I go there and it was full of big ants and they are biting my dog so hard it makes me so much problems for the next weeks it was unbelievable and then I realized how comfortable trekking in East Germany is and how difficult in other countries but there is no way around it you know it just so what we do like right now summertime we're already planning that we're gonna get in the cars and go like for a week or 10 days somewhere and just do tracking because it's not possible here we it's just we have our ants are not big they're small they're called fire ants and man like you put the food and within minutes less than five minutes and they're very like it's so bad and we come up with different strategies how to deal with it but it's it can really discourage you from doing it I can imagine for sure tracking tracking is a nice exercise because you're in a completely different situation and the dog is in a completely different drive and it's so much about concentration and about harmony and it also takes some time for me when I started to learn that stress and tracking is so bad for success and for me tracking is one of the parts where you really need a motivated dog yes if the dog is not willing to do it if the dog don't have pleasure to do it forget it it will not be pleasant experience for the dog and for the trainer at that point it becomes frustrating but there is the beauty of going in the open field and you and your dog and this peaceful almost like a meditation there is something about tracking absolutely I remember some years ago I was always good in tracking but I don't feel like an expert and so my last big experience in getting the next level was some years ago with a guy here in Germany his name is Sascha Angelmeyer a lot of people know him that he's making some tracking seminars and this and for me he's one of the best in this and his way of tracking I really like and he teach me a lot in the past so he brings me on the next level something like this and there was some very interesting moments the first was

that you use your leash and you communicate all the time with your dog but not in the way like the judge can take you points or like this it's on another level and this helps me to understand that it's not only going behind your dog it's like bring your dog in the right keeping him the correct mindset yes yes yes and this was very helpful for me and the second I was loving this days because another well very experienced trainer I think he's one of the most well known trainer in the world he was writing on his facebook profile something like yeah and the next video I prevent you is about how to handle problems with the corners so it was about when the dog miss a corner teach him how to handle this and when I read it I must really laugh about it because years ago one of my first questions to Sascha was hey Sascha when my dog miss the corner what can I do how to handle it how can I learn to solve this problem and he don't understand the question and then I explain it again and then he said why you want learn how to fix a problem learn your dog that the problem don't exist and I was yeah makes sense right so so so he he he teached me he teached me that your that your dog don't goes over the corner and when he goes over the corner then it was your mistake and today it's exactly like this it don't happen to me and when it happened one of I don't know 50 times or trackings like this right then then I realized okay it was my fault because I was not in concentration and so the dog was not in concentration this is a really interesting thinking yeah maybe he is also one interesting guy for your podcast yeah I can definitely does he how can he speak English yes oh yeah yeah I haven't had anybody actually talking about tracking and tracking is something that is very interesting it really is very interesting yeah you have some famous people here in Germany also very popular in tracking he makes a great job and teach people so much about tracking man I think we we close it we've been talking for well so long very long very long but super conversation super conversation so um I'm again like

congratulations on the succeed thing and definitely stay on top of that and keep it going because it's a big there is something into it and it's going to be important and what is the next competition what do you have next for you the next with the German no no it's wrong the next will be the competition in Poland when is it in June oh okay so it's not that far no it's it's not and after after this I go to the German championship okay and maybe maybe I have luck and make my qualification to the FCI world championship where is FCI do you know Hungary I think I don't know why no no it's Slovenia that's right that's right yes yeah yeah they I don't know who I was talking where it was some years ago but the tracking they're going to have in a different area not up in the mountains but from what I know the tracking is going to be like a bunch of different airports down somewhere so so the VOS fall world championship will be in Hungary and FCI in Slovenia now yeah we will see well I wish you best of luck it's you know it's important this year it's like there is a lot of competitions and you're you're on the role so best of luck and thanks a lot I'll see you I don't know when it's going to be maybe maybe it is this year but thank you thank you for for the conversation my friend it's awesome yes you're making a good job with this interviews and it's also I think an important part of communication and marketing for the sport yeah thank you yeah it's important I think we always collectively are starting to become more aware that it's important to do something about in many different angles and I guess that's what I do I don't get you know it's not like a sponsorship or advertisement it's just I do it mainly because I like to talk to people I like to talk to and and yeah it's interesting for everybody so I'll keep going but okay Matthias thank you thank you very much all right so I go now sleep yes I know take care my friend I