E245: 바브 부크마이어(Barb Buchmayer) - "긍정적 허딩"

It was through Guiding Eyes for the Blind and I raised Clay, who was a black lab. And that was my really first introduction to traditional dog training. And so he went through the program and I took him through it. And then he was part of my life. He went with my husband and I down to Florida. He was at our wedding. He was just, you know, really my introduction to having a dog in the house and having a close relationship with a dog. And he went on to be a successful guide dog. And so that was kind of a really cool thing, way to start, I thought. And I even thought of becoming a guide dog trainer. But my love was really farming. And so that's how I ended up staying with the herding. And my first dog training was like in 1980 when I got Clay. So that was a long time ago. And, you know, so it was, but he was really fun. And I think because he was so useful to somebody and he made somebody's life so much better. And the man sent me, you know, little snippets of what Clay was doing. And he worked in Colorado and he said, oh, he's so great because the people love him. And, you know, they'll come up and ask me about him and the people at work, all the women love him. And so he was quite enamored with him. And it gave him that freedom that he didn't have before. So that was really wonderful. Yeah. You mentioned that was back in the 80s. Did that kind of lead you into positive training? What got you started kind of on the positive side of the training world? So let's start with the how I got into herding because that came first before I got into positive training. It's kind of funny. I was interested in dogs after raising this guide dog. And I had some golden retrievers that I raised and did some obedience with. And that was really fun. But then I visited my sister-in-law in Ohio and she had an Australian shepherd that a friend of hers had won at a horse show raffle. And so he was raffles. And he was really a beautiful dog. And I thought, oh, I could maybe do some herding with this dog. So I started, I took him home. We lived in New York at the time. I took him home with me because she really didn't have a use for him. And he was a young dog. He was only two. So he came home with us and I started worrying about or looking into, well, how do you herd? So I took him to a instinct test for Australian shepherds. And I tried him on my dairy cattle. That's what we had at the time. We had a dairy. And he would go around him and he acted like he was herding in my mind. But then as soon as they would look up to see what was there, he would back off.

So I thought, oh, I don't know if, you know, he really has instinct or not. So I took him to an instinct test. And the woman was so excited. She said, oh, he looks like a, you know, an Australian shepherd with the herding lines. You know, he doesn't look like the, you know, the real foo-foo ones. And so she put him in with her sheep and he was afraid of them. And she said, well, I've got some lambs here. Let's put him in with some lambs. And so she put him in with three little lambs and he was afraid of them. And she turned to me and said, well, what do you want to do with them? And I said, her dairy cattle. And she said, that's never happening with this dog. So I said, okay. I, you know, he just, I think he did have the instinct, but he didn't have the bravery. So yes, the confidence. So I started looking. I, at the time I was working for the post office and I delivered express mail and I had met a man who used a border collie to move his dairy heifers. And so I got talking with him, found out where he got his dog and ended up getting a puppy from Virginia. And that was the start. Then of course I had to get some sheep because they say that's the best thing to start on. And I got some, they're called Barbados. And they look more like goats than sheep. And they kind of are like, act like deer, but they're really light or they move very easily. And so I started working with the sheep and the dog. And so that was Brooke, my first border collie. And I tried to find a trainer and I found a woman in Pennsylvania and she was, you know, pretty much a big hat in herding. And I would go down and visit her and work with her. But it was so far, it was like six hours away and I could only go once every few months. So it was kind of slow going. But eventually I got him going a little bit and I went to a friend of mine and she had sheep. And she allowed me to work her sheep one time and she watched me. And her conclusion was, you always move the wrong direction. And I thought, well, you know, there's so much going on. The sheep moving, you moving, the dogs moving. So, you know, I persevered and we made progress. But then we moved out to Missouri in 96 and I found a trainer that was within an hour of us. And the first thing I said to him was, you know, I want to learn to train my dog. But, you know, I don't know where to move. And he said, well, you don't have to move. And I thought, oh, what a relief. Now, only two things are moving, the sheep and the dog. Eventually you do have to move. But in the beginning, it really helped me to eliminate, you know, where do I go? This way, that way.

So that's how I got into herding. And I worked with him, took weekly lessons for eight years to learn. And that's how I got into positive training is I got really tired of saying to my dogs, no, not that. Don't do that. No, no, not that. Get out of that. Stop that. And this man's idea of training was you never said anything good to your dog. You never said good dog. If you said good dog, he said, what'd they do that was so great? It's like, well, I kind of like to tell them when they're right. And so then I was doing better and better all the time. And you start out at the lower levels, of course, and work your way up in the trials. And I got to the highest level and I won a trial and won a beautiful dog box with a beautiful border collie stenciled on it, picture of it. And at that point, I decided, well, I have to make a decision. Either I try and run with the big cats, you know, the big dogs and the big field trials, or I go a different direction. And I couldn't afford to be gone every weekend because of the farm. And I didn't really have that desire. I really enjoy, I mean, I like to win, but I really enjoy, yeah, training my dogs. And so I decided I'd like to find a way to train in a more positive way. So of course, get on the computer, what everybody does. And I found balance training. Well, I was a balance trainer for like three days. And then I realized that's probably not the way to go. So I looked into positive training. I picked up a clicker. I clicked it three times. And I thought, how hard can it be? And that was probably a mistake. But I was committed. And so I started and I did what everybody does. I took, you know, courses online and I read books and I watched DVDs, which is what I had done for hurting, you know, until I found somebody. And it was pretty slow going. And, you know, but I loved it. It made complete sense to me. And so I kept going. And then finally, I worked with Kay Lawrence some and, you know, took different courses. And then I found Bob Bailey and they were starting up their chicken workshops again. And I went to one and I came home and I had worked with my dogs on, you know, lie down and that type thing like everybody does. And I came home and in five minutes I had a better, quicker lie down on my dog than I did after months before. And I said, this is the answer. So I started going back to them and I traded classes for driving the chickens back and forth to the, you know, where they set it up. And helping set up and helping, you know, tear down and all that good stuff. But it was just such a tremendous learning experience. And to work with a chicken is so different.

And because dogs try and help you. They want to help you. They want to please you. They really, you know, if you make them, you know, set them up to guess, they'll guess and they'll try and, you know, they'll work it out. But chickens, now you either, you know, they get it and do what you ask them or they do what you ask them, even though that's not what you want. And they don't want to please you. And if you don't, you know, give them enough reinforcement, they just leave and go somewhere else. And so to me, that was a real turning point because I started to really understand what positive training was about and what a poor positive trainer I was. And so we kept moving forward. And the other problem I think I had that a lot of people have is I was a crossover trainer. And so it's very easy to revert back to what you know. I mean, all those years of experience. And the problem with traditional training is it's so darn reinforcing to the trainer. I mean, you get good at your timing and you learn how to use punishment. And, you know, not that you're mean with it, but it works. And so that's so reinforcing. So, you know, that's still something I struggle with, not when I'm working with my dogs in the house so much, but when I get out with stock. I have, you know, such a long history of that traditional training that I, if it's not fun, I have to stop myself and say, why isn't this fun? And how do I get back on track? So that's something I still struggle with. But, you know, that's a long history. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, just like our dogs, right? Like the thing we learn first is sometimes what we revert to when we're feeling a little stressed. So that's exactly right. That's what I had. The first dog I took to this man to train, he said, well, you know, we had this problem that she would rush in. And I said, well, can we get her over that? And he said, yeah, but when there's a lot of pressure, when she feels stressed, she's going to go back to it because that was what she learned first. So very true. So that's kind of what got you down, got you started. How would you kind of describe where you are, you know, today as a trainer or your current kind of training philosophy? Right. Well, along the way, I have to bring Sally into the conversation because through Kay Lawrence, I got this email that this woman from South Africa had contacted Kay and was looking for a positive trainer for herding. And Sally had never done any hurting, but she was a very good positive trainer and she had taught agility and obedience and she likes to like to train tricks.

And so she contacted me and we got started together through Skype, email and YouTube. And so she got a puppy. And over the years, we worked together and she really helped me to explain things to somebody and and see what problems they had. And she had a great sense of humor, but she felt, I think, really isolated because I couldn't. She was 9000 miles away. I couldn't go help her, which was very difficult for her. And but she told me one of the things I really believe in is that the dog has to engage with you near stock because the stock is a huge, huge distraction. And she so what I wanted to do is put the stock in a little pen and then work her dog till she could get the dog up close to the pen and could just do. Well, first, take treats, tug, you know, whatever she did and then then sit and down and then do the herding cues, which we had taught away from stock. And I think it was like three or four weeks she told me it was not possible for her dog to do this and that they needed to move on. And I was like, well, you can't move on because if your dog can't take a treat, if your dog can't sit, if you how can they take a herding cue? You know, it's just not possible. And now she says, well, that was one of the most important things, that step. And and and people want to get by that because it's a it's a big wall to get over. But, you know, so she did. She did. And then we moved on and she became very successful with Ren. And it was a wonderful experience for me. It basically proved that my method worked. The positive training worked. And it was all starting without stock with cones and the flirt pole, except Sally wouldn't use a flirt pole. So she used tugs and balls. So we proved that you can do it without a flirt pole. And but she, you know, she went through the whole the whole training as it was developed. And that the training, I would say, basically is it's all based on positive herding. And it's all based very similar to how people train agility positively, because that's what I studied, because agility dogs need to be fast and they need to be precise. And that's exactly what you need in herding. You need a dog that will react fast, but to criteria. And so that's one of the big things I've come up. I call them the track skills, timing, rate of reinforcement and criteria. But of those criteria, criteria, criteria. I mean, that's because the dog starts to cheat and we don't see it. And then pretty soon you look and it's like, oh, my gosh, where'd that come from? But the problem is, you know, you let it happen. And I've trained my dogs to do things and I have no idea how I did that.

I know I did it. Honestly, I I've taught my dogs things. One time I taught Quest not to walk past me and I don't know how I did it. And then so I just took him away from stock. And he's still with a tug out beside me. He would not walk past me. So I just turned my body sideways. So he was walking in front of me and he could do that. And then I slowly kept the tug the same and just turn my body till he's walking past me. And we just grew it from there. But how I train that, I have no idea. So I'm not going to tell you I'm the greatest positive trainer, but I can look at a problem and break it down and find a way to, you know, to build the behavior I want. But, you know, I make tons of mistakes and I wish I could do better than I do. But, you know, no one that I've seen is perfect yet. Nope. Everybody's always on a continual improvement journey, you know, at least if we're good. If you think you've got it all, then you may need an outside eye to look at things. Exactly. Point out where you still got room to grow. Yeah. So I invited you on to talk on the podcast because you're going to do a webinar for us in the not too distant future, specifically on herding. And kind of looking through your description, there were some things that like jumped out at me and kind of caught me by surprise. You mentioned in the description that a dog doesn't necessarily have to have herding instincts to join in the fun. Do you want to just elaborate on that a little bit? Can any dog learn to herd or are there just skills there that we can play with? I would say any dog could learn to herd. But I think dogs that are high energy would really enjoy it more because there's a lot of movement involved. And for a lot of dogs, that's inherently reinforcing just to move. And if you have a dog that's low energy, yeah, they could probably learn how. But I don't think they'd really enjoy it as much. But any dog that's got high energy, the thing is when you have a dog with instinct, herding instinct, it's a double-edged sword. They want to control stock, which is helpful. But then that also means they don't want to take your cues all the time because they're driven to do what they instinctually want to do. So, you know, it's great when you get to that point where the dog will control the stock and you can turn things over to him. But you're always fighting that until you get to that point. And then if you have a dog that doesn't have instinct, you do not fight that. And so the dog, it becomes what I call obedience around livestock. The dog will flank when you ask them. They'll stop when you ask them.

But now you have to be the one reading the livestock and deciding where will the dog be? When will they move? Will they walk in? Will they stop? Will they flank? Will they keep them? And so now the responsibility for reading the stock falls all on you, where with a dog with instinct, they'll control the stock. They'll keep them online if you train them right. And one thing I've heard people ask me, and I'd like to throw in at this point, is people are afraid that if they train the basic herding skills away from stock and using cones, flirt poles, toys, whatever, that their dog will be mechanical or robotic. And I do not like robotic dogs. I feel like if I have a dog with herding instinct, I want them to use that instinct. And to me, that's one of the most beautiful things to see is a dog controlling stock without me telling them anything. And I would never want to take that away from a dog. And traditional trainers look at this method and say, oh, you're going to get a mechanical dog. But traditional trainers make dogs mechanical too. So it's not possible to do it traditionally. So people worry about that. And my dogs aren't mechanical. Sally's dog isn't mechanical. And it's just how you integrate these skills with livestock. And if you allow your dog that chance, let's say their dog is bringing you the stock and the stock's starting to go offline, you pause just that moment to let the dog flank over and correct themselves. And if they don't, then you ask them to. But you have that little pause where if you don't have that pause and every time you tell the dog to do it, well, pretty soon they depend on you. And so it's not impossible to make a dog mechanical. I mean, people can do it if they want to. But and dogs that don't have instincts are going to be more mechanical because they don't have the instinct to tell them where to go and what to do. So if your dog is a dog that doesn't have instinct, you're probably going to have a mechanical dog to a great extent. And if the dog has any instinct, then you're going to allow them to use it. Good stuff. So you kind of mentioned some stuff in there, and I want to kind of zoom in, I guess, a little bit on some of that. So what skills are kind of important that we're talking about when we're talking about herding? And how are you kind of breaking some of those things down into the behaviors that you're then kind of actively training? Sure. Well, first of all, I believe you should train all the herding behaviors away from stock because stock is just too distracting. I mean, sheep are the most distracting thing in the world.

Maybe a squirrel might be more distracting, but not much. And that's why I like using a flirt pole because it's like having a squirrel on a string that you control. So you can use your pre-mac easily because you actually can control that squirrel and fly it back into your hand. So the skills that the dog is going to need for herding, first of all, is that we work on at every stage is engagement. Because if the dog can't listen to you, can't hear you, is so laser focused on the stock or even on a tug that's moving in front of their face, then they can't do what you're asking them to do. So that's the first thing we work on is getting engagement and then moving that. We start at a great distance because stock is so distracting that the dogs just can't deal with being very close. So I start with Sir. I think I started like 200 yards away from stock. He could see them. And he was a puppy, but he just couldn't sit. The things he could do around the front yard in the house, couldn't do them. So we start with engagement. And then at the same time, we're working away from stock on teaching the stop and the walk in and then directionals, which are right and left, which become your flanks. And flanks are what the circles that the dog make around the stock. So come by is a clockwise circle. And away to me is a counterclockwise or anti-clockwise circle. So I teach all those. And in my book, I also teach the close and out, which is as the dog's flanking. Most young dogs flank too close to their stock. So you need them to move farther. So farther away from them as they circle. So we teach close and out because some dogs tend to run too far out. But that's the thing with the dogs is they all have their own characteristics. And you have to deal with what you get and adjust it and move them towards what you would like to see. But then they're always trying to move back to where they're more comfortable. And that's where the criteria comes in because you have to keep track of if they're moving away from where you want them to be or if they're holding criteria. And so then the other skills are I teach the bite away from stock because I'm not expecting my dog to bite very often. But that's the only defense they have. And one thing I tell people is you are the protector of your dog. If one of the sheep stands up to your dog, especially when they're young, you need to step in and help your dog be successful and turn that sheep away. And so if the dog, some people try and take the bite out because at a sheepdog trial, if the dog bites, they often are disqualified.

But on the other hand, a dog can lose confidence if they don't have any way to protect themselves. So I teach a bite and I like to put it on cue. And that way, you're usually not getting it just showing up. The dog knows, OK, now I can go in and bite. And most dogs that have a bite never use it on sheep. It's just it gives them confidence. So those are the skills that I teach. I use cones. I love flirt poles. I use treats. I use tugs. All that. And I've had people that are just looking to do some new training, some different training that isn't tricks, that's more movement oriented. And they say, well, I'm not really interested in herding. But they'll get to the foundation. And if they ever decide to move forward, they can. And you don't need to have sheep to work with your dog. If you wanted to start the engagement, you could get three ducks and put them in a little pen. And so it's something most everybody could do. But, you know, the dogs see the rat on the end of the flirt pole, that tug, as a squirrel. And so it's amazing how much you can train just with that. And because you can make it move away from the dog, run away. And they see that rat as prey. And so if you can get your dog to listen to you while the prey or the rat is in the picture, you're partway there. I mean, it's really amazing that the flirt pole is so useful. And that's why I'm so enthusiastic about it. Because it's so good. And the dogs love it. I'm working with a woman and she says her dog, you know, when she walks past her flirt pole that's in the corner, the dog gets excited. And it's so much fun. I don't ever use a flirt pole that I don't laugh. Because it's the dogs just they're so into it. I guess they're so intense. And yet, you know, if they make a mistake, it's no big deal. You haven't run sheep into a fence or you haven't had a big train wreck. It's very forgiving. Yeah. Yeah. So I was going to ask, you know, which skills can kind of be taught before introducing sheep or ducks. But it sounds like you're really saying like most of the skills can be taught off livestock. Is that right? I teach all the skills off livestock. I even teach the advanced skills. Not so much penning, because there you've got all the components in place. But shedding, which is when you in the highest levels of herding at the trials, you they'll maybe run four sheep and you'll shed off one, which means you'll take and separate one off and hold that away from the others. Or you'll split them in half and you'll separate two. And then maybe they'll say, okay, shed off two and take them and pen those two and let the others go.

And so I start that in my front yard with I use dog crates, empty dog crates, because they're big. Sally used 50 gallon barrels and asked the dog to come in between those. And I just set up dog crates. And then I ask them to I start out with a cones, line of cones, asked them come through. And then you always want the dog to turn in a certain direction, which is toward the head of the stock, because that's how you really shed is they take them off. And so what I do is I turn my body and I ask the dog to come through. And once they come through the cone circle, then I throw my tug and have them turn in the direction I want them to turn. Then I replace the cones with, for me, dog crates. You could use garbage cans, anything, you know, something big, because you're going to be asking them to come through, you know, stock, you know, sheep that are pretty good size. And then so they get the idea. And then when I take it into the field, I pen the sheep. And I first thing I do is I ask the dog, can you even run by them? Because the dog wants to flank out around. And so we get that, you know, skill down. And then I pen two groups of sheep. Well, can you come in between them? Can you come to me? So each time I'm asking the dog to increase their skill and move a little bit farther forward in what I actually need. And so instead of just taking them in to the sheep and splitting the sheep and asking them to come to you, I do that in about 20 steps. And I set it up so that the dog's successful each time. And when they're proficient at that, then we, you know, do a little more, a little more. And then at the end, they have a much better idea of what I'm asking them to do. And traditionally, they'll just put a rope on a dog and they'll call it and then they'll yank it and make it come into them. But, you know, as you know, it's pretty easy to force a dog out by pushing on them or stepping into them. But it's real difficult to get a dog to come to you once you take off that long line if you forced them to come. And so I don't, someone asked me this in the group, how do you work with pressure and release? I don't. I, like when I'm teaching a dog to increase the distance between them and the stock as they flank, I set up two sets of cone circles, concentric. And I start out by standing in between the circles. First, the dog has to learn to flank inside each circle and then, you know, so they can do it on both circles. And then I just throw, stand in there with my flirt pole and I flip the rat out and I lure them a couple times to go to the outside.

And then the next time I just release them and if they even turn their head or look that direction, then I, you know, go ahead and tell them to get it and let them go out and get it. And pretty soon they're understanding and then I add the cue. But I'm not, I don't step into them and say, you know, well, you got to move away from me because the problem is people will ask the dog, they'll push him out. They'll push him out, push him out, push him out, which is great. It's easy. And you don't have to be, you know, that hard on the dog. But the problem is eventually you're asking the dog to shed and come to you. Well, if you've spent months telling a dog, get away from me. Now, all of a sudden you're saying, come to me. And they're like, whoa, I don't think so. And so then it's now you're having to undo all that training and try and change it. And that's why people end up putting a rope on them because, you know, the dog pretty much has learned to stay off of you. The dog has learned what you taught. Yeah. Yes. Yes. And that's, that's, I think, a very profound thing you've said that when I, I have dogs do things and I know I've taught them that, but we don't always know how we did that. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I like that way of thinking about it too. All right. So we talked a whole bunch about herding in general. I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about the webinar itself. Who, you know, would really benefit from signing up? Kind of anything that we haven't covered that you want to mention that you are covering in the webinar? Can you just talk a little bit about the webinar and who should join us? Sure. Well, I think I have some videos in the webinar of all the five stages so that people can kind of see how I actually do it and how I've done it with SIR. And I think people that are interested that have high energy dogs, people that are, I have a lot of people that would like to herd, but they don't like how traditional people treat their dogs. So this is a way to look at it and learn it positively. So people that are just starting, people that, I have people that are partway in and they would like to train more positively. And so I have those people would be interested. And then people that are partway in are having problems. And it's like, well, I'm stuck. You know, my dog does this. One woman I talked to, her dog was too pushy. So they couldn't, as it would drive the stock, it would push them too fast. And so the trainer she was working with, the solution they had was throw a, like a can filled with rocks or, you know, pebbles at it.

And it's like, you know, you do something like that. Let's say you hit the dog, the dog thinks the sheep did it. Well, that may say, your dog may say, I'm done with sheep because that's enough of that. And a lot of people put a lot of pressure on dogs and they do quit. And all I told her was, well, just, you know, start stopping your dog and only allow it to walk in when it's right. And when it's calm and get some distance, let the sheep drift and get a little distance. And it was like, it was such a simple thing. I'm not sure why her trainer thought that throwing something was the answer. But most traditional trainers wouldn't, would do the same thing I was suggesting. So people that are, you know, are started and having problems. So really it's a whole gamut of people. And people that I've had people interested in positive herding that just want something else fun to train. And believe me, if you work with a flirt pole, there is a caveat. You want to make sure you're very careful with the flirt pole that when you whip it up out of your dog's way, let's say you ask your dog to walk in and stop. Your dog doesn't stop and it dives for the flirt pole. You want to whip the flirt pole out of the way so it doesn't self-reinforce. But if you don't whip it high, the dog can jump for it and twist. And there's a possibility they could get hurt. So I try to get people to practice with the flirt pole so they can place it where they want and they can fly it back to either hand and have control. And that's, I guess, one of the things you're saying, well, what do you want people to know? The main thing I stress is safety because you're working with livestock at some point. You're working with dogs moving. You're moving. And so you want to all be safe. But the other thing is I really implore people, if you take your dog somewhere and they start to do something and you're not sure because, well, I'm new to this. I don't know. So, you know, it's all new. But if in your heart or in your gut it doesn't feel right, then you need to step up and protect your dog. Because many people have talked to me and told me stories of things that have been done to their dogs that have set them back a long way. And if you don't feel it's right, then you need to step up and protect your dog, even if it's embarrassing to you. Or at least step in and talk to the person, see what they want to do. But if you're not comfortable, you're just going to have to step up and do what you feel is right for your dog. So that's probably the most important message I have for people.

Even if someone's working with me, if they don't feel that's right for their dog, I want to talk about it. What's going on? Why aren't you comfortable with this? Because, you know, they probably have a good reason. And like I said, they don't, most people don't know enough. So mentally, rationally, they don't know the reason. But a lot of times in your gut, you know, or in your heart, you know, something's heading downhill. And so that would be one of the main things is please protect your dog. Good to know. So to kind of round out our chat, I've got one last question for you here. So if we were to kind of drill down all the things you've been talking about today, drill down the conversation into one key piece of information you really want listeners to understand and take away from this. What would that be? Yeah, I think the thing I would want to say is when you're looking for a positive trainer to work with, which I know people are because it's very lonely working by yourself, which I have done for years and years. But a lot of people that are traditional trainers realize people are looking for more positive type training, but they don't really understand positive training. They think that it means saying good dog. And so when you're looking for a positive trainer, to me, the key is do they teach all the skills away from livestock? And if they don't, then in my mind, they're not truly a positive trainer. And if you're out there looking for some help and you're talking to a trainer, ask them, you know, how do you teach the skills? Because I think to me, that's the litmus test of a good positive herding trainer, training all of this away from stock and then step by step building it around stock until you have, you know, a dog that is really a proficient and wonderful partner. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Barb. This has been super interesting conversation. So thank you. Well, you're welcome. I'm glad, glad to be here. And thank you for having me very much. Absolutely. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Heather Lawson to talk about the AKC's Canine Good Citizen program. If you haven't already subscribed to the podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, they're our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fensi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensons.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.