42: „하트 & 소울 – 바트 & 마이클 벨롱“ 영어

and then it takes a few years to make it fluent going. And what we do see is that leadership needs a strong locomotive and there is a lot of people that try to be captain and if they cannot they like to sing the boat with all the passengers. So it means that we must stay on the boat take a direction and prepare other people to take over one day. That's what we are doing. So, five more years. >> I mean, you you were just talking about your mission. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about the mission you had and if you fulfilled your mission already or if you just need more time or is it changing throughout the years? Can you tell us something about that? >> Michael Bart, >> go ahead. >> Ladies first. Well, we do see that around the world tools are being not allowed. And when you make tools not allowed, you're changing the type of dogs that can be trained and the type of sports that you can do. And as we all know in Austria, they already prohibited bite sports. So part of what we want to do is we want to encourage people to be able to train their dog the kind of dog they want in the kind of sport that they want or vocation that they want. As long as they have heart and soul and the dog always does on quue, then they must be doing something right. And we want a little bit of tolerance. And we also don't want to have a certain type of dog be called because of a certain training ideology. We believe in we believe in all different types of dogs are good for something. For every advantage, there's a disadvantage and for every disadvantage, there's an advantage. What can I say? So that's a little bit of our mission. Can I jump in? >> Of course. Years ago, me I had one mission. Winning. That was all. And to win I had the time to train and yes a little bit talent. And winning was the mission. And then by winning you win the empty trophy which you cannot feed your family with. That's the reality. So, and you live a very egoistic life and people start to hate you because you're a winner. Not a whiner, a winner. And then slowly people ask you, hey, what is the formula to win? So, they request you to come and give seminars worldwide. And of course you accept the challenge and you go to that seminar and then you can speak for five minutes and then you are there uh uh uh I don't know what I do. I'm just a belly dancer and then you start thinking bloody hell what do I do? And of course, Mike and I, we have a little bit study background. And due to that study background, the brain can analyze what the belly does automatically, spontaneous. And then you go around the world and you tell that to people slowly more and

more. Now you can speak 20 minutes, 1 hour, two hours, and you can show it to people. And then you don't realize that you wear blue shoes and that you wear and you use red ball and a black leash. And then in your first break, the organizer come to you and say, "Hey Bart, you must use another type of color of balls because all the balls you use are outsold." And I'm thinking, what the heck is going on? So people like to buy the tools that the winner are using. People don't understand that it is about the philosophy and the strategy that the winner is using. That's what it is about. And then what did Michael and I see that you become the trick master on a seminar. A little trick to make the dog sit. A little trick for this. It's not a system training. You're a trick trainer. And of course that trick works five times, 10 times and then the dog is outtricked and it doesn't work anymore because there is no system. And then slowly over the years you start to implement systems. And what did we see over the years that a good system to go fast to success fast and good was the dogs were very bully pushy dogs. And then we did use pressure with the leash and in the old days with the pinch collar and with the OE collar on low level. And when the dog due to pressure did do what we want him to do, pressure did stop first reward and we added eventually a second reward because that was the day where Karen prayer come with clicker training only and so on and so on. And then cames the third level of training. Booby trap your training. put distractions in your training to break your training, the conflict training. But the dog must be able to manage the conflict. And when the dog manage the conflict, the system becomes conflict management training. And it looks like the dog just walks in the bush like up. It's a day like another day. That's stop training. But that system we could implement on bully dogs. dogs that were positively trained, positively trained on purpose or by accident. That were the good dogs. So that was a winning system and people did start to copy the winning system. But on younger dogs from six, seven weeks old. And of course those little dogs became fantastic good in what they did. But they had one missing link. They never did drink beer and they never did smoke cigarettes. And those dogs never did had the luxury of having a ego. So it were little monkeys that were good in the little monkey drills, but as soon as you needed a dog, it was over and out. So there, Michael and me, we did speak a lot because we did travel a lot and then you speak a lot. And then we said, well, this is not what we want. And then we

did start with a lot of shaping to make the dog a free thinker, active active dog, a strong mindset. And that was lately a topic on the internet also. And Michael and I, we train dogs in that system of free thinking and a little bit monkey drills. And then when the dog is ready, then we bring it together. Vasa, the water must boil. And when the water boils, then you could can put spaghetti in the water and within a few minutes the spaghetti is ready. But people always put spaghetti in cold water. That [ __ ] cannot work. And then they are mad to the spaghetti. They are mad to the water, to the pot, but they're never mad to themsel because they don't wait enough until the dog is ready. And in top training and especially for the working dog industry, the dog must be ready. If you need a dog that does not move, and that's the big demand of the pet world today. I want a dog that is on the carpet for 32 hours, 23 hours. Don't move. Don't move. I remember years ago, Michael had an interview with a specialized pet magazine and they asked Michael, "What's the difference between a sport dog and a pet dog?" And then Michael said, "Well, for the sport dog, for the working dog, we need stem to make the dogs active. And for the pet dog industry, we do the opposite. We need the same stem to make them passive which is a lot of times true not 100% because you must be able to handle that bully dog but over the years what did we also see that the position of the dog did change in the world >> the dog becomes more >> no I was just going to say for a working dog you push them to do and for a lot of pets you push them to not do don't do that don't do that don't do that yeah >> so and then over the years. Michael did see that worldwide the position of the dog is changing. So it becomes in the old days the dog were in the trailers never in the hotel rooms. Now a day more and more the dogs are in the hotel rooms. You see that for example last year I was at Katchet. I saw a lot of dogs in the hotel. I did not hear one sound. This is new 20 years ago. the whole night barking bow bow bow. So there's things changing and the law in different countries are changing also the interpretation of the law because the law stays the same. It is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain or to make a dog suffer. That's the law all over the world. It's how they interpret it. That means that there is some countries like Germany, Austria and everything above that tries to be very very strict and not we are not allowed to do pressure on the dog and we are not allowed this and not allowed that. So dog training becomes very complicated and due to the fact

that dog training becomes very complicated in our difficult world start to select a type of dog that fits perfectly in that new strategy. For example, we call that the dopamine dog. When I started in the game, it's long ago early 1970s when we picked a puppy at five six week in the litter. 5 6 weeks, not at 9 10 weeks. 5 6 weeks is how we did it. We did pick the pup that was not coming to the people. We did take the dog that was a little bit I don't like you. >> A little bit antisocial. >> Yes. And we did throw a ball in the pack of puppies and we did not take the pup that did run behind the ball because we did not want play drive neither. We did not want that. So we did wonder a little bit that a social dog that very fast become pow pow mean and vicious and thus zone protection what you guys call brief trigger forbellan the dog that barks on the postman automatically that's the type of dog we wanted in the past today >> civil a civil dog yeah >> yes today that dog is a problem I remember in the beginning when I was a helper in the bite work you could not pet a dog in the bite thing impossible because that dog was immediate nailing your fingers and then over the years all that thing started in a game and there is nothing wrong to that. In the old days we did select dogs that were more endorphin dogs when that dog was one year or older. We put a pinch on the dog and we pulled a little bit and that dog was making drive automatically. with the type of dog we have now, the dopamine dog, which is the dog that is selected to be frustrated when they don't get their food or they don't get their little prey. Frustration and that we canalyze in what we want. That's how we do. It's a specific type of dog and that dog loves the people. Loves the people and that dog likes prey. It's selected for that. It means that and that's a danger today. Today the modern breeding is selecting dogs that are easy to train in the new world. That means that all the dogs that are not in that picture are out selected, outranged. It means there is a type of hunt going on. All the dogs that don't have prey drive and that are not social and they go further. If a dog at six weeks old is not putting the tail up and waggling out selected. So a normal dog that is very stable with tail down is out selected. This is very dangerous. >> It means that today >> the tendency is to go for nerve bags very nervy dogs instead of stable dog. And the stable dog comes when he's 18 months or older. 18 months or older. That's when you train a stable dog to do the things. >> In the modern world, they train already 6, seven, 8 weeks old. And when the dog

is one year old, he knows everything. It can be dangerous. So it means that they out select all the dogs that don't fit in this picture. So it means that there is a hunt going on the opposite way of 30, 40 years ago. So what we did do long ago is no good. What we do no good neither. is somewhere the middle of the road. >> But I find it very interesting because in modern days they accept people. You have to be very tolerant of people of all different personalities and types. But for dogs, it's getting less and less tolerant. >> It's kind of the It's kind of inverse. It's very strange. >> I know that you have two dogs yourself at the moment. Is that right? A black one and a yellow one. Yeah. So, did your preference for dogs change also in picking a dog? >> Well, it's very interesting like the dog I have now, my Zot we got because we had the father and we really liked him. But he's not a prancer. He's not a dancer. He's a soldier. He took He's slow maturing. >> He's very calm. He's very stable. If people come to the house and they're visiting and he knows it, he doesn't go up to them. He doesn't care. He doesn't say hi to them. I mean, he's a a a a very stable dog that's maybe not that easy to train in obedience and things, but he likes to smell and he likes to bite and he likes doggy, very doggy things. The [ __ ] we have is very intuitive and a dopamine dog and she's a dancer and she's a prancer. and she's a little ballerina. >> But to go back to preferences, in the old days, I did like to train dogs that were too strong for other people. What we call the bully dogs. >> And the bully dogs, the water is cooking. The previous owner on voluntary did do the perfect preparation. They always do a little bit, but never enough. And that dog takes everything. That's the dog that I did like to train. That was a challenge to me. >> But we still like to train that kind of dog. >> Of course. We still do that. Of course. But that was we did see that the big majority of people have that golden hand to involuntarily prepare dogs to be good. They don't do it on purpose because if you try to copy their system on purpose, you cannot do it. For example, in the old days, my daughter Ines was specialized in preparing dogs for me. And then I took them over when they became a little bit too bully. Then I took them over and within two days soft and very good dogs. Black was a typical example. >> I remember that she learned him to hold her hair and then click and it was fun. >> Funny. >> And then it was funny. And then one day I see her working and before she clicked so he anticipated and grabbed her on the air and start pulling and I thought to

myself, "Aha, one of these days is mine." And then two days later she said, "Papa says, "I think it's time." And I did fake like I know nothing. I said, "Time for what? I think it's time that you take over." It was such a nice dog to train. Yeah, that dog would if you had a ball under your armpit like for her and he was watching it and he was healing. But as soon as he wanted it literally he would just go in there, take it, knock you down, whatever. Like he had no respect. >> To tell you an anecdote, Black Thor had no respect. No. It was a bull. We call that the typically Alibaba dog. But he was nice. And then of course I have no hair and he was thinking I'm gonna grab his hair also. So he did fly up and cluck cluck. I immediately grabbed him and I said you never do that again. And he did do it once again. And grabbing means showing him there's no brutality. Necessary rules. Sometimes you must show the necessary things that you have to do. And within two days the problem was over for it was such a nice dog you cannot believe. smart, intelligent, bully, active, always asking, always, always, always. And of course, they are pain in the neck if you don't want to do things because they want to do things non-stop. They're pushing you non-stop, non-stop. I remember the mother from Michael was there and she said, "How many hours must I must I do this every time?" He would just sit and watch her and wa watch her and then she'd give him something and then he'd follow her to the next place and he would just sit there. But yeah, I do have there was a solicitor that came to my house in Bethesda and rang the doorbell and Thor was there and I opened the door and I saw it was a solicitor. So immediately I grabbed Thor by the collar and I pulled and when you pull he gives resistance and starts barking. So he did like a rhythmic wa and I was like sorry I can't control my dog and the guy was like okay I'll leave I'll leave and I'm just the more I pull you as soon as I shut the door I let go and >> he's calm again. Andre, to go back to your question, type of dog. What you must understand is that today if you go train, you must be able to show your training. In the old days, there was no problem. You could train however you wanted. And that's why some of us did exaggerate. Now is the opposite. It is exaggerated too much positive only. And that's why you need a type of dog that is trained in a modern system where you can publicly train and use the consequences of the training systems you are in. That means that Michael and I, we train a dog positive. We train a dog with negative reinforcement. We train a dog in Naple

with tools. We train a dog with a bamboo, with the leash, with a clicker, with everything. So it means that we Michael and I, we also can adapt as a chameleon and we adapt to the environment where we are in. No problem. And then what you must understand is if you like competition, which I did and if we have time, we going to help Michael to also go far. She has a top dog. She can go very far with that dog. And what what we did learn is that in a competition there is nothing in your pockets, nothing in your hands. The dog must like to do the work he's supposed to do. It means you need a dog that likes to track IGP and cops. You need a dog that likes to do obedience, likes to sit, likes to down, likes to uport, likes to jump. Why should a dog not do it? Now we have another problem. The dog should only do it where we tell him to do. >> Yeah. >> Okay. But that also you can control. And now the helper work. >> If I have a dog that does not like helper work, it's not the right dog to do helper work with. But that dog that likes helper work must like to out and likes to be obedient. And now we're going to tell you something very important. We see all over the world that by people love biting. I don't know why. Maybe I was the same. And they don't like the control on the dog. Listen very well to this little story. There is a competition and the competition says you must swim 100 mters swimming and after 100 m swimming you come on an island and on that island you must do 100 push-ups. That's it. And you know what people train? Push-ups. take steroids and push-ups and more push-ups and no push-ups, but they all forget the swimming part. The competition said, "You must first swim 100 m." And the guys and the ladies that can give 500 push-ups cannot swim 3 m blah blah blah blah over and out. So folks, don't forget to train the technical part, the swimming. For example, IGP in cuff bite work in IGP is 95% obedience if not more. >> It means that with a dog that can not bite very well but just good enough, you must have 90 points if all the technical work is perfect. Rean tat that's and people don't train that. And when they train it, the dog has no desire to cooperate. >> It's not I love to do it. I don't love to out. And then about the out, the danger is that the dog outs too fast. You don't need that [ __ ] neither. >> The dog should only bite when you tell him to bite and out when you tell him. So, it's a very complicated game, but people train too much the push-ups and people don't train enough the swimming part. >> Mhm. >> And when they train the swimming part, they train it the technical part, there is no fun in it. And we learned that

after a little bit technique, you do heaven. After a little bit technique, you do heaven. And more and more technique and less and less heaven. And after a while the dog they love it. You cannot believe >> it's very strong what you said make making it making everything you ask them to do making them love everything that you ask them to do. Whether you're asking them to out whether you're asking them to bite whether you're asking them to come sit down stand they must love it. That's your whole job is how can you make it so that the dog will love everything that they must do that they will say please thank you for asking me to do it >> and then comes very very typically because the main purpose of the podcast is EGP IGP and in IGP if you watch the obedience the last 20 years it's from another world. So if you watch the world champ 20 years ago and now >> it's it's it's unbelievable. Yeah. You can't believe those people won now. Yeah. It's >> so it means that the evolution did something right. We cannot ignore that. So it's very well done. >> Yes. >> The problem of the evolution is that a lot of Joe Bops cannot follow anymore when the past they could follow. So long ago, a good dog could come very far. Nowadays, that good dog needs a good dog trainer. >> So, >> I did play in the Belgian ring. In the Belgian ring, I had competitors that I was thinking, how do they do? And then I went to watch their training and I did not understand how the dog could understand, but the dog did very well. And then I w next training I went again and then I said, "Well, it's just a lucky shot. The the dog's name is Lucky Shot. The guy's name is Lucky Handler. The club is lucky club." It was all just luck. And that gentleman only had one dog in his life. Never again. So in the Belgian ring sport you could have extreme good dogs because the system is they go on the field and the dog does find an advantage by doing everything on their own and because there is a variation in the program operant conditioning the dog became a champion adapting and me with my systems I had to fight to to those people I could barely win from them. I'm not joking. So and then you copy and you say whoa operant conditioning. So you must recognize the things in what other people do even by accident and then you come very far because from profession I'm a sport teacher so I'm quite good in analyzing things and yes I did also like drinks at the club at the end in those days it was like that so we did train and train and train and then we're thirsty and we did drink too much and then we did kill our cars and my god not the dogs the cars So everybody did told to lose their

cars. That was like that in the old days. Lucky us there is no more drinking that it was no good. And it was like that in those days. I did train every every day. Every day. Passion. Passion creates a jobby. The seminar demand. Joby means you have a job and your hobby dog training gives you the black money. The black money in those days. We call that jobby money. >> And then comes the moment that your jobby money is three times bigger than your work money. And then you go to professionalism. >> And that's a dangerous moment because in your job moment, you never did pay taxes, never did this, no insurance, no that. And then when you jump to professionalism, you say, "Bloody hell, I must work my ass off to don't go bankrupt." This is the reality. >> So hobby, jobby, job. And a lot of times when you are the hobbyist, you are the best because your only concern is your hobby, your passion. As a semi-professional, when I had Zot, I was a semi-professional. And in despite of that, I still became champ. Normally a chump was always a person in pension and the person in pension has a lot of experience and a lot of free time. >> Yes. >> And because they have a lot of free time that it's spended on the dog and they have a good relationship. I was one of the first guys breaking that rule because I did work at a dock as a docker in those days and my shift was done 1000 p.m. and I was on the training field around 11 p.m. at night. They were waiting on me and then a guy did serve me and then I did serve a lot of other people as a helper because I was a very good helper and then it it two three four o'clock in the morning it was like that in those days. So hobby and as a hobby man, I was very passionated. And now >> as a professional, of course, Michael and I still have the passion, but we must pay so many people that we cannot afford to hang around on dock clubs anymore. We must make sure that there is enough money coming in to pay everybody and so on and so on. It's a choice. We must not whine. Bart, do you miss the times when you were just doing dog sport for a hobby? Yes and no. Yes and no. It means that I could be myself and do my thing. Now when Michael and I go somewhere, people always ask, "What are you doing? Why are you doing?" We are not We don't have the freedom to be ourselves anymore. That's a little bit the problem. And that's why we don't go to clubs anymore because we cannot enjoy it. We cannot. >> And the other question would be uh do you miss competing? Do you miss winning? >> Can I answer that? >> I miss the winning. I I like to win and I was not a whiner. Not a whiner. I'm a winner. But >> what I didn't realize is that doc sport

is one of the only games where there is no professional competition where you can live from. >> No. >> Imagine I have a lot of money and I purchase the best horse then I pay the best jockey to show my horse. That does not happen in dock world. In dog world, the fat guy with a lot of money buys the horse and he the dog and he tries to become champ with that dog. It's typically so in shoreline German Shepherd they pay a runner to present your dog because there is money to win. >> So dog sport there is only the empty trophy. Imagine imagine Michael goes in competition in two years. Imagine. Tell me what can she win? Glory. What else? >> Glory. Yes. Yes. >> What? What if she is What if she is number two? Huh? She [ __ ] up. Da da da da. What if she wins? That's what my daughter told me years ago. She said, "Papa, I will not compete." And I say, "In why?" Well, if I don't win, people laugh with me and laugh with you. And if I win, it's normal. >> Yes. >> And it's a little bit true what she says. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's part of that's part of the game also. Huh. >> Of of course. Of course. And there you must be very strong. And the question I like competition, but the reality is Andre, I cannot run anymore. I can't catch dogs anymore. I It's true. So, there is a moment where I would never work a dog like the black [ __ ] I have now. That's a dog under 30 kilo. Are you kidding me? A dinky toy. I needed a dog 40 kilos. >> But my my dog is way bigger. >> I I know, Michael. That's why I cannot handle him. I cannot anymore. Of course. I mean, those dogs >> Dominique, are you going to come here and and be the helper for my dog? >> I will. I would love to. He would love to, but he will go. >> He's not allowed. He's not allowed to go in. >> Well, I mean, so competing, we are a little bit competitive and that's why all that competitive desire we put in the the businesses we have. So, because Michael and I, we are very hard workers and we are both of us, we are very autistic. Once we are on a thing, we are so concentrated like a razor blades. So people only see when you have success, then they see the good things. They never see that at night when they sleep, you're working. They never see that at night when they sleep, you're thinking, what did I do wrong? How can I pay this? How do and so on and so on. So success has a big big big, how should I say, there's another side. >> Yeah. Bart always says to me every night, "What do people do who don't work constantly 18 hours a day?" Like, we have two of us who are working constantly from like 5:00 in the morning till 9 at night. And he's like, "How do people sur get everything done?" And we still don't

finish everything. And we're like, "Okay, we did that, we did that, we did that, but now we still have to do that." Yeah. So we're constantly I I I don't think we live a lifestyle that's in accordance with our age. >> That's one thing. And I think that a lot of younger people cannot follow our lifestyle. They don't have that discipline to wake up in the morning and to do the necessary things, the chores, brushing a dog, brushing horses, cleaning stables. >> Yeah. Every morning we wake up, we get the stable ready, we bring the horses in, we get the dogs ready for their bike ride, we bike the dogs two miles, then we come back, we clip their nails, we brush, we It's not a joke. We do it every day. Every day our dogs are well exercised. And yes, we try to train a few times during the day as well. But yeah, but we we make sure that they're well taken care of. >> When I give Sorry, >> is that the life? Is that the life you you're wishing to have? Is it Are you happy with that? >> Or do you complain? >> We No, no, we're not complaining. We actually have fantastic dogs. I mean, I whenever we have a dog, we always think it's the best dog we ever had, but now we sort of think we have two really good dogs m in in their own way. No, we we we we like we like to do that. Whatever we do, we like to do a good job. >> Andre, you cannot make me happy by letting me go one week to the karibes. After one day, I say, "What the [ __ ] am I doing here?" >> Right? >> It's not good for me. So, >> right, he's getting out his p his paper and he's like, "What? We have to draw a schedule for blah blah blah." Yeah. >> Well, you have to understand my dad just turned 87 or 88, I think. 88. My dad just turned 88. >> He has a he has a business. He just got back from a three-week trip to Asia where he set up a whole bunch of business deals. He's a He's in uh Atomic Energy and yeah, he still works non-stop. So, and flies around the world. >> So, we're a little bit that kind of >> personality. >> I must confess I'm a workaholic. I like to work, >> but I only like to work if I like to do the job. Go sleep. It's done. Don't let me do things that I don't like to do. I I cannot. Then I'm I'm the biggest donkey that you can have. >> That's why I have to do all the things that nobody likes to do because somebody has to do them and it's not going to be barred. >> If if I had that's without joking. If I had Michael's character, I would be much further in life businesswife and in everything. I have a little bit that lazy side. I can only do things that I like to do. And if I like do go sleep, it's done. Day night, I do it. No problem. And I don't need coffee to stay

awake. When I like I I need the passion. When I don't have the passion, I cannot do it. Lately, one of the top engineers was asking me, "How did you find that?" See, because I like it and I'm not an engineer. >> It's the same with dogs. Huh? They need the passion to do it. Huh? >> Yeah. The same thing. The same thing. And then you must ask yourself because that's a question that Why do we do the dog stuff? How did it come? Because me, I come out of a family and my parents were not animal lovers. No, they were very old-fashioned. And yes, in Africa where I did grow up, we had a dog on a chain and that dog had to bark and bite. That was the job of the dog. And I think that when I did born, that dog was in my life as a pup, six week old. And I think it created type of image. And I'm not a real dog lover. I like to train dogs. But if they say, Bart, no more dogs. Well, okay, no more dogs. But I like to train them. And when I train them, I like to do my stinky best to make harmony. Harmony was always very important for me and I was always thinking my a dog on a chain. It was like that in the old days. E Michael, she had dogs in the house. Me, I did not like dogs in the house. Now I tolerate it because we have a [ __ ] She lives in the house. And you even don't know she's in the house. When you come in, she goes at the side. She goes on the carpet. And when she needs something, she's bully. She She start pushing me. I say, "Hey, I was so happy that my kids were out of the house and now I have a black [ __ ] that tell me, "Hey, I need my my milk." And hey, and don't forget it because she's pushing until she gets it. >> She doesn't get her little vitamins at night. Yeah, >> I like it. So I I mean, I like her to push me around, so I accept it. In the old days, that was impossible. No, no. But I learned and that dog came very far just by accepting her bully [ __ ] An example lately, Mike is on a bicycle, >> big property, and she loses her transmitter. >> Oh, bloody hell, where's my transmitter? And then she she said, "Jack, come here." And she take off the collar and she let sniff the collar and she says, "Identific, go search." And bloody hell, that [ __ ] comes back with that transmitter. And I'm looking to She has intuition. You see that? >> Yeah. And she looks a little bit Yeah, she looks a little bit like she's just messing around and you know you're a little bit like just find but in one minute she's picking it up. >> Comes back with the transmitter and then you think how does she do that [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And at night when she grows wake up there is something and she shows you where the danger is.

That's what I like. So these are the things that's what they call that something special and when you work with animals you cannot do the top job by just taking them out of the crate and doing the alphabet and putting them back. It doesn't work like that. You need to have a little bit bound, you know. Well, I have to say I I like it and I think Bart also that we like to observe our animals and watch the patterns that they create and things that they do because it's a little bit like chess. Now, the horses do one thing and we watch that and we're like, "Okay, now we're going to change this and see what happens." And then they do that thing and then we say, "Okay, now we're going to do it like that." And it it's a little bit a chess game. It's like we we were gone. We were gone for a week and we came back and Jack wasn't acting happy to see us. She just went over to this cabinet and sat down while we're unpacking and bringing our suitcases in. She's sitting there and she's just looking at the top of this cabinet and we're unpacking. And then I realized her bone, we put her bone up there before we left. So, she was just sitting there staring like she wasn't making a scene. She wasn't being loud. She just sat there and stared. Then we got the bone out. We put it down and then while we unpacked, she chewed her bone and it was a fine. But there you see, she's telling you something. >> The key is if you ignore those signals, this dog will stop showing you the signals. The little things like that >> and you must react on it. >> And that's the power of success. How to make a little dog like that bully? >> Well, it's a little bit like when we trained our dogs to bark. Initially, they would come out of their kennels and get on the pedestals and we had the ball in the gutter above the roof of the kennel. And one day they were on the pedestals and we start talking and they're expecting us to reach up and grab it and they go, "Woof." And then we say, >> yeah, they look to it and then they give a little bark like, "Hey, and give me my thing." And then you say, "Wow, okay." And then you use that. >> So that was our first dog trophy. >> Yes. >> The ball on the roof. >> Yes. >> And then you go to the next step. It's all coincidence. And then it goes to the next step, the ball and the rope. But then the dogs are smart. They take the rope and they pull the ball down and say, "Oh, we must stop that [ __ ] also." Yeah. So, >> but it's all about watch. Yeah. Watching and then saying, "Hm, that that leads to that >> and then you in your head." Huh. You >> And it's it's chess. >> It's like this. And for example, luring a dog. You have food in your

hand, for example, food. And the dog follows the food and bites your hand, whatever, and you give the food. So in Michael and I, when we have a weak dog that needs a little bit toughness, we let that dog pushes our hand to get the food. The dog must push to get. And now we train a very strong dog with that food. That dog is not allowed to push. He only gets the food when he goes back a little bit. And now you get it. >> So it is the same reward, but it is not the same behavior to get the reward. Yes. >> For example, you have a strong dog. The strong dog can never touch in the barking. If you accept that from kissing comes more, remember? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, if you have a weak dog, you must accept it because that weak dog becomes stronger and stronger until the water cooks and then you tell it, "Now we stop that shit." But that [ __ ] that stopped must not stop the whole behavior. It's just that touching. It's like tracking. What do we want in IGP? A dog that goes very deep in every cast. To get that there is different systems. One of the systems is foot in every footprint and then people put the big foot on the ground and then instead of sniffing the dog is just cut cut cut like a chicken. They pick it up. They are not tracking. And they are visually picking up the food. No good. So the food must be smaller. And then we do like in direct reward. Direct reward. It must be boring predictable. Every footprint nonstop one foot kibble. One kibble. One kibble. And we put it in the footprint. And lately there was a discussion about the machine that digs a hole in the ground and opens the ground a little bit. >> It's a cedar. A cedar. >> Okay. >> And then im disadvantage the dog starts scratching and da and da da da. Well, let us say like this for some dogs that are not with a deep nose and there is no aggression enough you must dig it in. So they must push and they must scratch a little bit. But you don't like him to scratch. But it's a good signal. Now he scratches. And the moment he scratches, you give a little bit negative, negative, negative. If negative is too hot, they stop the whole behavior. We don't want them to stop the whole behavior. We want them to continue but find another trick to get that foot out of the ground. Now with the muzzle, we take it. That's why we take. Okay? So it's not because they are digging that that machine is bad. It is just bad if you accept the scratching because if you accept it 10 times you are in the [ __ ] you are it's already mileinated and now you need a baseball bat to stop it. So what can I say? It's a little bit the reality. So be careful in accepting things but also be careful in huh I

should not judge it. For certain type of dogs it can be very necessary more aggression the deeper nose and for other dogs not. So >> it's not the system that is bad. It's the way that you implement it. Well, it's a little bit like we were talking with one of our students, Michael Carpenter, and he was talking about people starting training in the Napo pyramid, which I'm not going to go into the pyramid at this moment, but he said there's a level below the pyramid, and sometimes people start training at the bottom of the pyramid when the dog doesn't have any ignition at all. Y >> and so that first thing that's even before the first level is to have some ignition. And basically I've been giving it a little bit of a name. Before you have ignition, you must make expectation. So you may have no ignition. You don't have ignition for something. So you just give things for free and make an expectation. Once you have an expectation, assuming the dog likes that thing and feels like he deserves it and wants it, then he's going to be frustrated when he doesn't get it. And what that frustration leads to the ignition that you want. So that's why Yeah. There's a and and once you have that ignition, you can do everything. You can track when your dog has food drive if you're using direct reward and tracking. If your dog doesn't like food and you put food in every footstep, whether it's dug deep in or put on the top, it doesn't matter. You see, it's not going to be good. So, >> I mean, uh, the expectation is a good synonym for hope. And, uh, if you go to dog training fields, what you can see is that, uh, people are trying to use a system, but they don't read their dogs. And they come there without hope and without expectation. and then you don't know where to start. So, normally as a trainer, you have to send those people home to create hope or show them how how they can do it before you can start on a training field. And reading dogs is I think this is the thing you just talked about, Bart. Yeah, this is so important and this is something you hardly can learn and you have to you have to have a little bit of the talent to do that like uh empathy or or whatever you call it. You must have knowledge, feeling, and experience to be a really good dog trainer. And if you have two, a lot of times you can get the three. So even if you have no feeling, if you have experience and knowledge, you can eventually get the feeling. If you have feeling and knowledge, you can get experience. You you understand what I'm saying? >> But it's a lot the same also in horses because we use, for example, we use tools for horses. uh we use negative reinforcement and

that those tools don't replace being a good rider. >> Yes. >> It's it's an addition to it's an it adds to it. So it's a little bit like what you were saying a lot of knowledge is something but if you can't read your dog it can't replace that. >> But what you you just said is experience is something you need years for. So then it would mean you cannot be a good dog trainer after one or two years. So you need at least five or 10. Well, some people are extremely gifted. That is also true. So there is exceptions. But that's why we tell when people are graduated in silver for example, we tell them okay. And then Michael and I did give the gold school and then people were happy but we told them hey it's a milestone but now it just starts now. You will need five years >> to shift it around >> in your way because you will become the architect of your training system. Michael and I we were just there to give you the ingredients. Now it's up to you to cook. And in the beginning you must eat your shitty meal yourself and later you become better and better and better. But to go back to what Michael said that foundation I like to drive with a car but the car will only drive if there is gasoline inside that everybody understand. And what do we do when there is no gasoline? Then we have to push a car. Do you like that? No. Why the hell do you push a dog? make gasoline. But Michael and I did give a lot of schools and a lot of seminars and it's always the same thing. At the gold school, day number five, most dogs were ready to just start day number one. We just needed five days to create gasoline. Hey, charge the clicker. The clicker is not charged. And then we use the manners minder, the treat and train. And in three sessions the three the beep is charged. So people do things wrong and they need something and somebody to explain them. It's that preparation. The water must cook. You need gasoline. >> And then that's that's experience. That's experience. Knowing how to do that is experience. And the thing is is knowing how to do that with all different kinds of dogs. Like when I had my business, I took every kind of dog. I took I took dog like I I have a cut off at this point in my life. There's certain kind of dogs I don't want to spend time on cuz it's very slow and I've done it. But but I think everybody has a lot to learn from all different types of dogs, different ages, different breeds, different personalities, different drives. And that's what makes you a good dog trainer. And then you you you get the next dog and you say, "Well, I see that that and from your experience with all the other dogs, it really can help you unbelievably."

>> An anecdote years ago in one of the last gold schools, there was a lady with the extreme on the feet dog. I was thinking and Michael the same thing. We were thinking, hm, that's at the edge. And we called the lady on the side. >> Of course it publicly. >> Yes. I said we cannot work that dog. It is close to animal abuse. I I don't want to be part of this. But it's a type of dog that did not like to eat. It's true. That dog >> it was a Korean a Korean type of dog. Like a meat dog. A dog they breed for meat. >> Okay. >> And the lady she's used to getting those kind of comments. So she just went on her merry way and she she has golden fingers and was able to train this dog to do so many things >> without food drive, without prey drive. It had a little bit of pack drive >> liked her, but the what she could do with this dog that had most people couldn't train it. >> She trained that dog. Dominic, can you remember the brings? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> Yes. >> At the last day, we the the second day we told all the students, listen, there is a test with the brings. If you want, you must not. We let you smell the smell of a jacket. And we put three jackets on the ground and the dog has to find it. And if the the jacket that matches your scent, the dog will take the bringsel and come to you. She did a chief with that dog to do that in 4 days. I cannot do that in thousand years. >> I must confess. >> I mean, she is h she might have even been in your class. Dominique, was she in your class? >> I can. >> I don't think so. >> Okay. That was amazing. And >> and there we were wrong because that dog >> did not like to eat, preferred not eating. And Michael and I, I remember that in Washington when Michael had her business in pets. Once she had a whippet, I never forget it. And that whippet, they already look very thin. And that whippet did not like to eat neither. And we did understand too late that the dog likes to run. The biggest reward for that dog was running. Okay. So sometimes you must go with the flow and don't stay on your stupid like this. It must be like this. No, no, no, no. You must have that little Okay, go with the flow. >> Right. You You think your your special toy you got for your dog is the is the preferred thing, but really it's your tennis shoe. >> Yeah. Well, it's like if they ask Michael and and and me, how do you train healing? >> We always change the system. We adapt non-stop. >> We adapt nonstop the way we train the healing. It's just a basic thing. How you train a back transport, Ricken transport, you go with the flow. How you train a bark and hold and >> it depends. You must a little bit go with the flow and and and and

>> well that's why I remember at some seminars and we were helping we we always help with the the trick of the day and one lady after the seminar was done she said and how do you so how do you train the the heel or how do you train and we don't have a recipe. It's not about the recipe. It's about having the ignition and reading your dog and observing. How can you make it fun for this dog to do what he needs to do? How can you make him enjoy it? >> And to go back to the beginning of the podcast, what is changing in the world? Well, I'm going to tell you something. We post Michael recently post a picture from her dog and it's a good-looking dog. She's in the city and the dog is on the ground and does nothing. It's a beautiful picture. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of likes. And then you post something that is hi training, one like and 20 thumbs down. That's what going on in our modern world. It means that a dog licking his own balls, 5 million views, and then a dog doing a nice performance, nothing. That's the reality. So it means that what we do IGP is not easy. It is a very complicated game and >> it takes a lot of time >> and people have three times in the week desire to go train and they don't see that the dog has no gasoline. >> And people don't do homework. They don't prepare the dog home. They just go to the club and say, "What must I do?" >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Lings, Rex, links, Rex, Hulk, T. Doesn't work like that. >> Well, that's interesting. I was talking with somebody who they had a little problem with stairs in Belgian ring, going up and down the stairs. And part of the problem is that they only practice that when they're in training. But when they take steps in other places off outside the training field, you can also train taking taking the stairs. That's what makes it easy. It's a lifestyle. I mean, Zaw is not in Belgian ring. He's probably not going to have to do stairs in a competition. But if I go to a place and I walk down the stairs, he's walking with me. He's taking one step at a time. For example, yesterday I receive a message from an old friend and say, "Hey Bart, I like the way you guys train dogs. I have a problem. My pup is 8 weeks old. He does not like to eat." After 15 minutes, everything is eaten. What must I do? And I like him to eat. I say, "Don't change nothing." You just leave it 14 minutes. You take it away. Next day, 13 minutes and 30 seconds and you take it away. He will be faster from himself. The dog had no competition as a young dog. As a young dog, four pups, they have a lot of food. Why should he be fast, no reason to be fast? But in dog training, you need that gasoline. And

that's how you make that gasoline. For example, the black [ __ ] that we have, she is not food addicted. Not at all. And we did train her on the back tie, but if there is a fly in the air, cluck cluck, she kills the fly. I said, "Aha." Michael and I said, "You like to kill the fly. Now you're going to kill the kibble in the air." So we throw kibble to her in the back. Cluck. And then she likes it. Cluck cluck cluck. >> That she loves cluck. She misses, of course. And now she misses it. It drops on the ground. She can hunt it. >> Day number three, you change the rules and in your head you say, "If you miss it, I pull the leash and now you cannot eat it and the rest you can eat." And more and more. And one day you miss it and I will put it away. And now for two hours the restaurants stay closed. But people cannot make more and more consequences. They cannot do that. Oh my little doggy and ali Michael's horses. Michael is a real horse lady. She every day goes to the pasture, does the whole thing. And then we have two horses that are beggars and one horse that says you. And the beggars are the easy ones to train. They always, hey, they like to eat, they like to be pet. And then we have an artist that doesn't like nothing. And that artist learned if they come with the horse gear, I run away because then I must work. That's what he learned in his past life. And with the horse, it's very hard to work with food because a horse must eat every four hours. That's one thing. And two, in the summer, our dogs, our sorry, our horses are on the puri, which is I think 16 acres, and they can eat. You have a competitor, free food. Why should they come for food? They have food for free. So they see me, they run away. I don't like that. I drive behind them with the electronic bike and with the whip and I chase them around the property running, running, running until the only escape gate is towards the boxes. The how do you call that Michael? >> The barn. The stars. >> The barn. >> Hey, if we call them now full speed, they come >> and they pass the whip. They don't run away. They know exactly in the box. And in the box, they have their food. Special grain. >> I call one time. I hate it. And then the slacker, there's always a slacker. And there, well, he will have less food. He learned to be much today the slacker was full speed but people people cannot train that but that's how you make that gasoline and when they have the right mentality now we can train them hey I'm a sport teacher how can I learn my the kids that I must teach to love the game if they don't love basketball how can I teach basketball you must learn them to like

that ball and so on and once they like the ball, then you can start training. As long as they don't like the ball, you cannot start. It's impossible. It's it's the same thing, you know. >> Yeah. For the hand, it's absolutely important to have um the experience to to have the view for things like the the example with the fly. >> Yes. Yes. And and and then to Patrick, a lot of people copy what you do, but they don't it's monkey see monkey do, but they don't understand that you implement always more and more and strict rules. And then when the dog misses the foot tuck and it flies away, we don't punish the dog, we just hold the leash that you cannot eat anymore. It's what you don't eat, you will not eat at the end also. So if they miss 10 times, it means 10 kibles less. If they miss 30 times, it means 30 kibles less. And their meal is 100 kibles. Believe me, they start to hunt with more and more concentration. >> The motivation is there, but you must find very she's very concentrated >> even though she doesn't like food. >> One short question for you both. Um, what is your view on the protection of working dogs in Germany right now by UNESCO? >> Can I ask? >> I think it's Yes, I think it's fantastic. I think that it was time that people with brains change direction. >> People with brains to them >> because what happened too much in every >> federation is that there is a old pension guy like me that is on the throne for hotel salams and blah blah. I'm very important but at the end they don't care because in three years when they change everything >> yes >> they have no vision. >> They're not doing it they're not doing it for the future. >> Yeah. >> No, they're doing it for just for themselves. >> And that UNESCO idea is a brilliant idea. Brilliant. >> And that's the way that I think the >> and it is called heritage. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's the way why bull fighting is still going on. why the races with pigeons are still going on. I think that it's part of a culture. I think it's very important and what is very amazing to see is that Austria which is beside Germany prohibits tried to stop everything with bite work. >> Yeah. >> And that a country besides Germany due to a few very intelligent guys >> Yes. have the right to continue a genetic selection because we did receive a treasury in genetics from older generations and that's a problem of all the docor we did heritate fantastic genetics we did also heritate fantastic training fields but we did also heritate not upto-date how should I say club formation the So in the old days it was all nonprofit organizations. Today you must change that maybe in a profit organization with

rules. And we believe even Michael and I we believe we go further. We should like to say and you can only be part of it if you have a minimum license and you will be trained to do what you have to do. An example, 20 years ago, the German hunting was not liked by a lot of politicians. And to give the German hunting the next shot, they implemented a very complicated, very difficult hunting license in the hope that they would kill the whole hunting business, the whole hunting associations. >> That was what we see. >> That was the plan, of course. Okay. And what do we see 20 years later is the biggest revival ever with the new generation of trained people that like culture historical hunting but with modern principles selection and so on and so on. So the idea to kill was the biggest revival injection ever given to German hunting and on that model you must copy that and we are 100% convinced that the politics what Michael and I aim for is what do we do now? We go to the politicians and say, "Please, please, please make an exception for us because we know what to do and we know how to use a clicker and we know how to use a slinger and we know how to use this and we we are loud and the others not." So that's how we go to politicians. No good. You always lose like this. You if you are your niece and and pray please doggy doggy doggy do your best. No, no, that doesn't work. The dog must beg. And now we can train. That means that you must create a system where hundreds and thousands of people do agree with and because you are such a big quantity politician will come and say hey how can I help you to promote this >> that's what you need >> yes >> change the game so that you become attractive >> and the model is the German hunting >> that's a little bit like that's a little bit like the first question that you asked at the beginning of this podcast. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was Andrea's question. I think >> it's a long it's a it was a long answer. Now that that now the answer is fully answered. >> It's like >> okay. >> If I want to be member from one of the German federations, I pay and I'm a member. That's wrong. If I want to be a member of one of the Belgian federations, I pay and I'm a member. That's wrong. It's not because you pay that you can be a member. If Michael and I have everything for say, we should say we don't sell membership cards anymore. You can earn membership cards. You must prove first that you know everything about positive reinforcement. That you know everything about negative reinforcement. The combination of both. You know everything about tools. And now we go for an examination. And if you do

a certain score now, you receive your membership card, but it's not >> a lifetime membership card. It's not because you're a member that you are a member for life. If you do stupid [ __ ] we kick you out, >> right? >> Because you should know better. And that's the model we must go for. Licensing. There is no other way. Yeah. I don't like licensing. Can I tell you something? Everybody goes for the driving license. everybody that they like it or not. There is no other way but we are used to it. What can I say? We must make it attractive. >> Yeah, that's also a thing that Matias said in our podcast. Matias Durgle he said uh we must change our position because we are always the beggars. >> Yes. >> And uh >> it's no good. >> We need to change that. Yeah. But question is how people are afraid uh in the last days they were so afraid to show their sports to talk with politicians about that because uh it got stricter and stricter and stricter the laws and so they they they were hiding in the corners to do their sports. that was how the situation was and uh I think the the sasset is is an opportunity to do to change that also to show what we can do what what training is like what we learned is that sometimes you must start from scratch change everything for example Michael and I did purchase Martin system was bankrupt when a company is bankrupt it means something is wrong and Then we did continue with the same people that worked in the bankrupt company, the black sheeps. And we did install a new policy. And then some of the co-workers said, "But it will not work." I said, "Hey, it did not work before neither." Michael and I do believe in this. Let's try and when it doesn't work, we change. After seven years, we are very profitable and very successful company. And now with our team we can say whatever we want and say okay we go for it. That's fun. So but if things go wrong you must not be afraid to cut it off and start from scratch again. And the big problem for the moment is we don't cut things off of >> we stumble further >> and we still can walk on one leg and so it should be stopped and we must start with the tabular raza with a clean sheet and install new rules and believe me in the beginning it will be slow but slowly it will boom and that's where Michael and I do believe in you know And it's a beautiful sport. IGP or whatever the bites, it's beautiful, but you must explain it to people. And the same people that don't like it, they watch every night mixed martial arts and it must bleed and there must be knockdowns. The same people love you. >> Good point. >> And at the same time, they have a chihuahua in their belly. Of course.

>> Yeah. >> Of course, it's the same people. I see that. No, I was just saying maybe that's a a moment when you can tell about the minister of agriculture. I think it's >> Well, yeah. Years ago in Belgium, Belgium years ago in the early 1900s, dogs were pulling the cart, dogs were pulling the bicycle. So, the dogs were the working horses from the poor people. Okay. And then the minister of agriculture has the portfolio animal welfare which is typically for Belgium I think in Germany. >> Yeah, >> I think it's the same. >> That's right. That's right. Yeah. And then the minister from agriculture was married with a lady that had a little chihuahua that was eating chicken wings and had a little jacket and she did not like the dogs to when they were pulling the cart. She had no problem that the guys were pushing and pulling also that she had no problem with. And when you sleep with the minister, you can influence his brain. And she did influence him so hard that a new rule did exist that dogs were not allowed to pull a cart anymore. Not allowed. The next day, 500,000 dogs were killed because there was no money to keep them alive in the name of animal welfare. Come on. Until now, it is still not allowed for a dog to pull. That's why when I pull with my dog, I need a special sport license to pull on a bicycle. The same idea. It's not allowed to chain a dog anymore. That's why we did invent the flex pole years ago. The flex pole is not a chain. Okay. In the old days, we did chain up dogs in the club and they were on the chain and they were growing. And when we did bite work slowly, they were starting. The water was cooking. And now we knew, aha, water is cooking. He's right. We can start. Nowadays, if you do that, you go in jail. You see? And then, of course, and then in the old days, we didn't know exactly. Don't go when a dog is back tied because he's defending that zone with heart and soul. When you come too close, he barks. And because it's a very deep bark. Wow. Wow. Wow. It's to chase you away. It's a ritual barking. And if he did not change away, he did bite you. There was no other solution. That was typically those dogs that were on the chain, very strong. You unchained them and they were like little sisses. They were not used to not feel freedom. The modern dog is the opposite. He's used to freedom and if you back tie him is in the [ __ ] You must find that little balance. And that's why Michael and I, we do a lot of back tie work. And no, our dogs are not back chained day and night. Hey, we have here a neighbor where the dog is chained. When you go on that property, you see a barking from

another planet. Pow pow pow. Aggressive. Nobody did teach that dog to bark. It is a spontaneous behavior. The intruder comes in my domain. And when I bark, the [ __ ] goes away. Haha. He goes away and it's a home win. But nobody did train that dog to Bart. >> And we actually Bart Bart said if he didn't have a dog, he would buy that dog. He's like, I love that dog. >> Yeah. >> Is it a Belgian Malinoi at least? >> No, it's a mud. >> No, it's a mud. It's a nothing. It's >> what you must not forget Andre when I started Lucky the dog my first dog was a mud it was a little bit of everything it was a mut and all my dogs I had in my life were never dogs with paper never. And if I had paper is because I did cheat a little bit the Belgian way. We were world champs in paper cheating but we're good in dog selection. Okay. So for example, my dog Zot on paper was Ni the Malazagnagnaga, Nchi the Malazagnaga, father Ank unknown, mother unknown. And that was the original NVBK. But I had FCI paperwork, Ni de Malazagna. So I'm not interested in paper. I'm interested in a dog. My first dog, my first cham flip on paper was Yuri. Flip had no papers neither. It was a 47 kilo mut. It was a missing shepherd marino noise. 47 kilo. >> Dominic, you had a question. >> Uh, yes. So, no, it was not a it wasn't a question. So, uh, you were talking about licensing and, um, and I think that's the beauty of also the NAPO system that you of course you have a training system and I think a lot of times people are doing those monkey drills that monkey see monkey do and then they have a problem then they come back to you and asking so I have a problem what do I do now and the good thing about the Naple system when you do the the silver and the gold school is that you don't get a do this, do that and then do this. So like you said before, you get a how should I say you >> Yes. And and you also become uh like the um the creator training system. >> Yes. >> Of your own. So you learn how to learn within the rules of the system. And I think that's that's the beauty of of it. And you you grow into that system. Dominic, Michael and I, we have we we think big and by giving our life school, we did not reach enough people. And when we did reach people, you did reach people that could afford to come financially and also could afford the traveling and the hotel and the one week away from home. So, it's a whole investment. We didn't know that and that's why we did create the online version which is three times cheaper and once people have it they can always watch it back and watch it back and again so they have it for lifetime. Oh what did they say there and they can go

back. So it is a way to reach more people that's important and the whole thing came together like that. So our big dream is to create that big quantity of people and more and more people become online silver and more and more people due to that go to one of the multiplicators to become gold. An example, one of our good friends from very long ago was successful in Nepopo online and now went for a gold. It makes me so happy. And Michael, you cannot believe. So, and he called me afterwards and he said, "Bart, I learned so much." And of course I had a lot in my belly already because I did do a lot of these things but I I did not know I did do it. I could not explain it but I do it. See? Yeah. So and that's the thing that makes us happy, you know, to make that big army that one day we'll not be silent and one day we'll not accept that the politician says hund. We don't accept that. Remember years ago I was a lot in North Rinfallen and Doris Bundeslanat and in those days I was a worker from the brand Inoch and I was the boss of the prostaff team and the prostaff team was a team that did learn other people how to work with an e-collar but in northwest fallen was written to that was the law in Northrine Westfallen. So me I'm a guy that like to follow the law and they say okay where can I make myself licensed because heist license >> the response was oh that we don't know are you kidding me you ask people to be of course in those days I was quite naive and I did just take a job pop lawyer a normal little lawyer Normally now today, Michael and I would go to a big name and say this is unfair. But in the ruling against me, and it's still the ruling economy. So the the law maker did keep a possibility to license people. All right. Um Matias gave us a question for you. He was our last guest, Matias Dougl. And he asked the question, "What kind of dog would you not like to train?" Can you answer that question please? >> Well, it's a very good question and Matias maybe is trying to push me there a breed and I will avoid to answer which breath I don't like to train. What in general is very important for Michael and me is that the dog in question has attitude. The dog must have the working desire, the activity desire. And that desire

must be intrinsic. So if we have a dog that is lazy, we call that the lazy dog. That dog was always served because he's lazy. So we try to change that attitude. And the dog must change by trying to do something with the environment. And once that the dog is pushy, then we start training. So to answer the question, it has nothing to do with breeding or with a specific breed. We like a specific type in every breed. And we like the dogs that are active. And the activity must be intrinsic. We call that when the water is cooking, you can throw spaghetti in the water and within a few minutes you can eat. That's the point. All right. And is there any chance to pick a puppy if you pick a puppy out of a litter to see if there is a puppy with a more attitude than the others or is it a thing you need to educate? >> Well, let's say like this. Huh? I have a little bit experience in picking up Malino puppies. And in Malino puppies in the old days, we did always pick up the puppy as soon as possible. So we did try to pick up five, six weeks. 7 weeks was already very late. So we tried to pick them up very early. And then of course, well, we have the good genetics. So like Michael said before there is a lot of genetics and what we do see in litters is if you come at the litter and there is one puppy that did eat a lot the feeding time before that puppy a lot of times is the less active. So if you go a lot of times to litters you see a lot of times different dogs are the most active and you know for us it's a little bit a feeling thing. And you just have the feeling. What we double check is does the dog has the eyes that work well. Does the dog has a mouth that is normal configurating? Not that it is a overbiter and you see a normal dog. We like them not too skinny. When they are too skinny, it means that there is somewhere a problem in or he doesn't eat well or there is a type of diarrhea and so on and so on. So what we do sees it must be a match from in the beginning. For example, to tell you the truth, I would never have picked black to years ago. It is my daughter that said, "Oh, papa, oh papa, please, please, please, please." So, and then, oh my god. And then she did pick out the dog with the smallest legs and with the biggest ears. Oh my god. I was thinking, what is that again? And then after 3 days, I must say that pup did amaze me. That pup went up the stairs at 6 weeks old and went down the stairs. That pup was at the inside of her jacket like a Chihuahua. She did bring that dog everywhere. She did put it on the table. He was sleeping. He was stable as a rock. And then when he was awake, he was the pushy guy. You cannot

believe. But when he was sleeping, he was sleeping. So I was wrong. There I am with what do we pick? You see what I mean? So >> don't make too much rocket science about it because the genetics are there and sometimes dogs are later late later blooming. For example, now we have a dog zot that is late and when you use all the criteria from previous dogs, you think in yourself what is that for a sleeper? But now that dog is active, you cannot believe. So you see what is a dog and how do we pick? Well, try to pick a healthy dog. If we are in the sport world, we are on the working world. If we already pick out a pup with three legs, there is a leg missing. You see what I mean? So try to pick a dog with four legs that is healthy and that's a good start. Yeah. What can I say? I mean, yeah. I mean we are in the business of return on investment. Hey so >> I mean that's what what Hans uh said Fabroen he said the genetics right uh just bring me a dog I don't have to choose okay just just bring me one and I I make the best out of it. Yes, >> it's a very good answer. It's a little bit what Michael said. Michael said the same. Genetics kicks in >> and let's say like this and specific on the Malino. We are breeding that dog now for more than 100 years specific on sport. Breeding, selecting, breeding, selecting, breeding, selecting. And the selection was based on not the best training in the world. So the dogs had to take a lot of [ __ ] from the owners. That's a typically malign breed. And do you think that by for example 20 years of other type of breeding you breed out of the genetics everything that for 300 years was installed? I don't think so. So it is very very hard to in a for in a very short time go for another type of dogs. You need decades and decades to come to stable genetic production. And it's a little bit what is happening now. In dog training the modern world want dogs that react on not getting the reward. N positive only positive >> and there you need a certain type of dogs. So you must out select the other type of dog. So we commit the type of genocide on all the dogs that don't do it spontaneously. That's a little bit the danger from what we do now. So I mean choosing puppies the genetics well the answer of Michael and the answer of Hans is good. bring the pup and we'll make the best out of it if it's a healthy dog. That's very important. >> Okay. Thank you. There's a question for you, Michael, >> by David Thomasek, >> and he asked, "Are there any parallels between horses and dogs?" >> Yes, there are. There are a lot of parallels, but the one thing that you need to keep in mind is that horses are foraging animals.

So to be healthy and not get ulcers, they need to eat most of the day. They can go 4 hours or so without eating hay, but then they need to eat. So with a dog, you can take away their food and give them food the next day, but that's not an appropriate training method for a horse. But if you put that aside, it's a lot is the same. Horses that are good eaters are very easy to train. Same with dogs that are good eaters are very easy to train. Yes, negative reinforcements work very well on horses. And positive reinforcements work very well on horses. And NAPO reinforcers work very well on horses. And in fact, we have five horses here right now. And we're showing a lot using maple bow on the horses. So yes, there's a huge number of parallels. It's a lot the same. >> Okay. Can you also work with a negative punishment with horses? >> Yeah. Uh you can work with negative punishment, but it can't be it can't be super long. Yes, you can stop. If if you put, for example, if the horse goes in the trailer, you can reward them. And if they don't go in the trailer, you can put them away and do it later. But it's not it's still not the same because you can't let a horse get super hungry. What people have to understand is that horses need to eat all the time. Horses can't eat so fast because they're hungry because they can't throw up. >> So there's a lot of physical Their intestines are like 180 feet long. I mean it's there's physical differences but yes you can use negative punishment. >> Okay. >> Absolutely. >> I've I've seen a western horse once working. It was a young horse and I was so amazed that this horse had an attitude and a will to work. I just saw with dogs at this time and uh then this this horse was like a working dog. >> Yes. Yes. Well, and the and the more they work and enjoy it, the harder work they do. We have one horse named Jet, and even if you reward him, if he thinks it wasn't good enough, he does the thing again. Because he's like, "It's not good enough, I'm not going to get the reward. I'm just going to do it again." And then he's like, "Okay, now it's good enough to get a reward." >> Okay. >> But yeah, that's absolutely true. Yes. Okay, Bart, there's another question by Tanya Dinsza and she asked, "Did you have a protection dog for your house or yard during your time at Bhundi and what kind of breed was it?" >> So that's Well, Tanya, that's maybe the reason why I am in dogs. When I just was born, my parents had a young dog, Luki. It was a street dog and he came in my life and I did think that by seeing that dog it came part of my life because my parents are not dog lovers and the job of that dog was and

that dog was on a chain to bark and to bite everything that came close in his zone and he did do the job that little thing. So, and I remember that in the evening the dog re that dog did receive coffee to stay awake at night and in the morning when the shift was over then the dog was feed and when we did feed the dogs they did always receive the same food in the same food bowl from the same hand and there was a verbal cue on it. So we did try everything to avoid that they could poison the dog because when a dog is hungry and in the night shift they could eat the bait. You see what I mean? >> And then they did also throw the bait and then the dog was double proofed and then there was a old baby gun. In those days all that stuff was normally and when the dog was eating the bait the baby gun was shooting in the flanks of the dog and it never did it again. So there was already a system. You only eat out of a certain bowl, a certain type of food on a queue. That was one system. And on the other side, there was a system. But in case you should eat, you must be a little bit aversive of what you find as a bait on the ground or things they're going to try to buy you off with, you know. So yes, we had a guard dog. Yes, it was a mud. The name was Luki. I never forget it. And my parents were certainly not dog lovers. But maybe that's the reason why I'm in dogs because that dog did create a special vision. That is part of me, I think. And in those days, we knew that you should stay away from a dog that was chained up because a dog bites, a horse kicks, and a cat scratches. We knew that. And the dogs were very strong on the chain. But when you did unchain the dog, they were like lost in paradise. They did not know what to do. It's typically the modern dog is not used to be back tight. And when you back tie a modern dog, a lot of them collapse together. They only are strong free. The old dog was the opposite. He was very strong on backside on back tight, but totally scared when you took him off the chain. And that's why we today we do a lot of back tying our dogs on flex poles. >> But hey folks, that is not during the whole night. age 10 15 minutes when we can supervise the animal and later we do a lot of exercises by being back tight because it creates a controllable boundary. You have your aquarium that is as big as the space that can go around. >> I hope that I did answer the question of Tanya. >> If if you want you can look on Bart's biography on the website and there's a picture of Lukey on the website. >> Yeah, I've seen it. I've seen that. >> Yeah. >> And that lookie did bite a lot of people. >> Even I never forget it. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I never forget it. My parents did ask the how do we call that in English? The the director of the school during our vacations to feed that dog. And one day he was a little bit sloppy and he did come too close and that little bastard did bite him in his leg. >> I never forget it. So he was biting everybody that came too close and it had nothing to do with color. Nothing. Everybody that was too close was in danger. Lookie and never forget it. Mhm. >> And how did it come that you uh started working with Belgium? Because you were a Belgium guy or how did it come? >> Well, as a young kid in Africa, well, in those days we had no internet. That did not exist. The only thing we had was a big dictionary and in the dictionary I was always blading herders shepherds and then there was already written German shepherd melder malino and because the little city where I come from is a city very close to Meccan St. Catalan Wav I think it's about 5 kilometers away from Mecclan with a bicycle and I think that created the magic thing in my in my mind and I remember the first day I was in Belgium I said to my parents I want to have a melder and then my parents that are not animal lovers they told me Bart remember you have a dog you take care of the dog and I say yes I will and that's how I did start in that maybe malino world because it was creating something magic in my mind. Yeah. >> And were there any other breeds you had during your life or was it just the Belgian Mal? >> Well, it was always Belgian Molino. Meal. First of all, it was a very cheap dog. Secondly, I was at source from the good breed stable dogs that had those spontaneous drives. And I must confess that over the years I had two other breeds. I had one shepherd and that shepherd was a very good dog. But at month number nine, month number 10, Bus started. I don't know how you say that in English. Bart pancreas pancreas pancreas pancreas insufficiency. >> Yes, it was making me crazy and then yeah b it is due to your training as in no no no no no I did train so many dogs in my life and I never had pancreas. It was just something that breeders don't speak about. And then I did do a little bit research and I see that a lot of people have that problem but they don't speak about it and they breathe with it >> and it is a bad thing and then I told that to my vet and then comes an answer that I never forget is a Bart look what do you see on my shelf German special German shepherd special it is specially made for German shepherds with this >> disease disease >> they make money on it they want dogs to have box sparkle dua. And then I said, "This is the last one in my life that I

will take." And then I >> say he was very well trained and a lot of people confuse him with Thor, >> but it actually was a black shepherd >> and Thor looked a little bit shepherdish sometimes and you'll get them mixed up. In some of the movies that shepherd was really nice >> to tell you something that German shepherd was the best jumper I ever had in my life. >> H >> at young yes he did fly. You cannot believe. So everything was there to be a extreme good dog but physically the animal was sick and that was a genetic problem. And in dog training and in dog breeding, you must be able to select. H. So I mean that was one dog. And then I had another dog, a beagle. I never forget it. A beagle out of the top hunting bloodlines from a good friend of mine, Jerome Besson. And then the purpose of that dog was to find criminals. When criminals do an act of crime, they release a fear pheromone and they escape on the highway with the escape car and then they stop the car and they run away. And the job of that dog was to find that person. And there I did see that the beagle remind me of my old lookie size-wise. I had a lot of fun with that little dog. It was a half wild animal and it that dog came in a point of my life where and then Michael know that because I start dating Michael and then we did bring that dog back to the breeder to Jerome but that was a very good nice dog and healthy as a rock. You cannot believe everything was there to make a big success out of that little doggy. That's the only time I had a non malino noise. Yes. Yes. Yes. >> Michael. Michael, I'm amazed that you know the German word. It's quite a hard word, huh? >> You understood. You understood what B said. And you said, "Okay, it's pancreas. >> I know what the dog had." >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. That's smart. Very smart. Very smart, Michael. >> Okay. So, >> and can I can I continue on that? Can I continue on that? Sorry. Because it's important. From that day I watch very sharp when dogs do poo and when other dogs from other people do poo. And then comes something. It's typically diarrhea and mushy. And then there is another actual big problem with faces of dogs and that's a giant problem and they call it jardia. Every >> every dog breeder today has Jaria. If you want it or not, they have Jardia. And Jardia is a bacteria that is very hard to get away. And young dogs are very very vulnerable in that dirtish stuff, but it is not sparkle. >> It's not the same. >> Well, it's not the same. Yeah. But the the pancreatic insufficiency is pickiness and then the the poo is like uh like on a cone. Like ice cream on a cone. >> I like ice cream. I like ice cream, Michael. >> Yeah.

>> Sorry, but yeah, that's Yeah. And also they get very they get very um dull when they have pancreatic insufficiency. Even even though they have drive, they they're exhausted. They're they're they're they get more and more dull and normally it gets worse and worse. It doesn't stay the same. So it's to me it's a death sentence. You know, >> I had a dog who had a giardas and I went to the vet and uh >> she gave her medication that made it even worse >> and worse and worse and it really was a hard time because you have to clean everything >> every day. So, I have never cleaned that much in my life and you have to wash everything. And then uh there was um a guy Hans Budmaya and he told me >> um just buy a medication. It's for doves originally for doves. It's called gamba mix. Just give it to the dog and then it's it's gone. Just give it once. And then I I had nothing to lose. So I tried it. I gave it once and it was gone. So >> wow. Unbelievable. >> I have I have so many >> Write that in the comments what that is. >> Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. The vets will hate me, of course. Yeah. But you can you can buy it. It's very cheap. And then I have I have a couple of uh >> if you're actually interested in my wardrobe. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's really good. And and no >> and there's there are no side effects. So, it's really good. It was really good. >> Wow. Okay. That's good to know. >> Good to know. We learned something. >> Okay. And what about you, Michael? How did you start with dogs? What was your first dog? Well, when I grew up, we had a a shepherd mix. And then when I was really small, like three. And then when I was around six or seven, we had uh Karen Terriers. We had three Karen Terriers. And they were wild ratting away and not the best behaved, but I taught them little tricks. And then I used to ride horses as a kid. And my trainer had a Doberman. So of course my first dog that I got for myself was a Doberman >> because my trainer had a Doberman and I loved their her Doberman. So um >> then I I ended up I got three Dobermans, but that it's very hard to find healthy Dobermans. So my first one had a heart problem. The second one, the second one was pretty healthy but had different issues. And then the third Yeah. So anyway, then I got out of uh Doberman's and I got a shepherd, but I got a shepherd. I had a couple experiences with shepherds and then I started working malininois and it was by far for me the most fun cuz they're healthy. You don't have to worry about over bites, under bites. I mean I never had I never had a malininoa that has had a health issue. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So and and they also can work and

they're also nice. There can be on, off, and we're trainers. So for for for me, a Malininoa is perfect. >> Okay, thank you. So here's another question from Malino Fond. So there's a a small Game of Thrones reference in the in the name. Um, during which period were most of the dogs bred that you personally admire and what do you think made that time so successful for producing your preferred type? It's a complicated question. Let's say that let's say that and I speak now in the reproduction of Malino. >> Yeah. >> The world where I come out is we know every dog because it's a very small circuit. That's one. >> Then what people do forget is that in the old days the Molly knows breeding was based on a very hard selection. The dog had to be in the highest category before we did put a dog in the breeding program. That means the dog the male dog because the moly noise was in those days a male breeding because the female was supposed to be good ground where the seed can grow in. Mhm. >> And we did see that a lot of females that were good in the sport were very bad mothers. They were too nervy. They were it was no good. So we did prefer a very stable dog as a female and then a male that did prove himself over the years that he could go in the highest level of the do of the sport. Still jumping the maximums, still hitting with the muzzle. So that the dog proved and still bite in the leg. >> That was very important a leg bite because a leg bite you go from very far. You go fast and then 10 m before the dog bites he turns already the whole body. It means one side of the body is totally relaxed and the other side is totally crisped. And there a dog of 3540 kilo hits a helper with a suit of more than 120 kilo. And the Belgian helpers are not the most, how should I say, sophisticated, athletic person. They don't swing out. They just absorb a little bit. So the dog had to be very strong. Everything had to be good. And if that dog was in the highest level, we did take it as a reproducer. And the dog could reproduce three times with different [ __ ] When nothing came out, we stopped reproducing that dog. It means yes, all the qualities are there, but he doesn't trace the it's not the blood tracker, blood tracker. He doesn't trace of course. Yes. And of course the combinations are you must hit that golden combination. I remember in Belgium we had the bloodline of Willie Wartz where his old dog and all the brothers were in the highest level of Belgian competition. All the brothers, the whole litter. It never happened before. All those dogs were top. It happened one time. You see what I mean? It's a unique. >> Yes, it's unique. It never happened

again. And that's a tracer. And they all came out of Deber. And Deborra was a dog owned by Jeff Nulus. But that combination never came out again. It was a one-time shot. >> Wow. >> But all these dogs separately later became good reproducers. Okay. So the way we did it was that's the old way. What I would propose to modern people is if your dog is one year old, two year old and you see all the qualities you like, take the sperm and put it on the sperm bank. And when the dog is five and six years and if you see everything is still what you like, then you can throw the sperm into the breeding circuit. And there you must differentiate between a business where you sell sperm or you do genetics. And there you know in the old days we knew everything and because the sport was so small everybody knew everybody. We knew everything about every dog. For example my top dog Zot. If the guy I buy him from tells me, Bart, it is a tree king. Dri Corning. Driingan was the biggest shittiest bloodlines in Belgium. We knew that if he tells me in advance, Zot is a tree king. I I say, "Fuck it. I don't want him." And I did buy him. And then I said, "By the way, what's the bloodline?" And then he told me, "Dorning." I said, "Are you kidding me? And now comes that is one of the reasons why I only did do I think six or seven breedings with Zot. I was not convinced about his bloodlines. I was convinced about the dog but not about his bloodlines. >> Maybe you were convinced about the training. >> Of course. Well, Zot was a psychopath and I was quite psychopathic trainer also. And my job was to train dogs three times a day. And Jot needed three trainings a day. Where you find a dog like that? A normal person trains two, three times a week. I did train two, three times a day. So I knew that the dog was a psychopath. And I did not want the normal person to have a dog like that. A doctor in the biology, France Kilman, he was as foul judge years ago. And France Kilman told me, "Bart, the good dog for the grand public is the medium dog. Medium food drive, medium prey, medium aggression. Everything above and under this medium is a no-go for the big public." So my dog Zot was a nogo for the big public. And I knew that. And in the breeding sometimes the same psychopath did come out and he came back. Kimmo was one of those dogs. Kimmo came back. You cannot believe what what a monster that was. >> Yeah. I You can't make that up. >> No, no, no, no, no, no, no. And that was a second generation dog chemo came out of black tof. So a lot of times in the first generation it wandles out a little bit and in the second generation boom you had the kickback of the old guy and

that's what you must see. Huh? So for example, if I see a good dog, for example, we have now a very good dog in our kennels here, male zot, I would not reproduce zot on the [ __ ] we have. I would go to the father of zot tomake. I would use tomach to do the breeding. You see what I mean? >> This is me because that's what I did. See, because it's very possible that if we breathe with what we have, it's already watering down. Hey, so what can I say? And and and you know, breathing is it's also feeling and you must test it and what you think is good is sometimes no good and then you must change it. What can I say? But breathing is a lot of times done by people with a good heart and they start loving what they do even when it's shitty. When my daughter speaks about her son playing football, I say maradona. And she starts laughing. Say, "Is it the Maradona?" I say, she knows exactly how I think because as a sport teacher, everybody came to me, my son is Maradona, my son is Messi, a tennis wonderer, my my daughter plays like Stephie Graph. And then you see them play tennis, and you think, hm, >> they did sleep maybe far away from Stephy Gra, but it is not Stefy Graph. And then you must tell that to the parents that are dreaming about things that are impossible. Impossible. It is not there. >> So it's not there. So it's interesting. So I hope that I did entertain a little bit with my answer. >> But also you have to like for Zot's parents the mother not much was done with her. She was a very stable she had good bloodlines but very stable. I think nothing was done with her. She she wasn't particularly well trained. So it's a little bit in that old school and then yeah Tom pretty much threw himself. >> Can I go there? The mother was a Haras. >> Yes. >> Daughter and Haras was one of Anik's bloodlines. So it is not a coincidence. So Haras En these are the big names folks. These are the strong things from bells and blood lines that you must know. Any was one of the best biters all times. >> You put on a suit, they bite and then you put on the suit for normal dog. You say I don't want to be helper anymore for normal dogs. I mean you be you have complexes from those dogs. >> Yeah. But I mean the mother I never saw even the mother ever bite but I was very impressed with her stability. >> Okay. And I think Zot has that. >> The good thing about the old breeding that was based on stability and drive. So >> today they mix too much drive with nerve bikes. >> Mhm. >> And they start to think that the nerve back that at six weeks put the tail high that is the driving dog. No, it's a nerve bike. M >> tri can be the dog that is very stable

and then slowly it comes. We have here a horse Jack. It's a white horse, white gray. If he pulls a car and if he pulls whatever then the the drive kicks in. He loves pulling. You cannot believe it's powerful and they are unfatiguable. And you say whoa, they stop and you say go. They start pulling. That is drive. They can be stable and when you need it, boom, they push it in. That is what we need. And the old generation knew that very well. And the modern generation makes a big mistake and they start breathing with nerve bugs. There's a big problem and they want to see everything when the dog is 6 weeks old. We don't want to see it when the dog is 6 weeks old. We want to see it when a dog is two years and three years old >> and then the nerve back is gone. >> Yeah. A lot of times with very stable dogs, it can be slower to get to where you want to be. But >> yeah. >> Yeah. That that's typically they're a little bit late maturing. More stable dogs are more late maturing. >> That's why those stable dogs are so hard to train with only modern techniques. And that's why a lot of people cannot train them because they are used that if they give food and if they take it away, the dog starts to go in in drive. the stable dog said, "Fuck you. I don't need that food." You see what I mean? >> So, and there you are with your training technique and the dog is not ready to be trained. >> No. There's another uh interesting uh question in this context from Stefan working dogs and he asked, "Does the breeding of Malino out of IGP work lines has still anything to do with the Malina of the original?" >> Well, can I answer that? I know how it did begin. It did began with bloodlines from Bber. That's how it did start. So Bber was the dog from FCI paperwork that came out of NVBK without papers. That is the biggest tracer all times in the world. And Bber, we knew that was not the best dog with the muzzle. Not the best dog with the muzzle. Not at all. And IGP, you need a very active dog. And in IGP, people don't have the patience to wait until spontaneous zone barking will come. IGP people like the dog at four months old to ba ba ba as a big dog because they want to go to the championships when the dog is two years old. I stay away the championships. We wait until the dog is ready and when the dog is ready, then we start. It's another way and the selection in IGP jump. Hey, with all respect, but I can jump that hurdle of one meter even with my plastic knee. >> What makes IGP difficult is throwing the dumbbell over that jump. That's a difficulty because most of us train speed on the dumbbell and then when it's perfect, then we go to the jump. You

throw the dumbbell over the jump and before you know the dog has in mind, dumble, dumble, dumble. Oh [ __ ] there is a jump in between. I did not see it. Boom. And there it goes. So >> what I was thinking that was easy. It is not so easy. I always underestimated the jump of IGP >> because the jump of IGP is difficult due to the dumble that you throw over it. >> Yes. And IGP was not made for the malino vision clamoring between abbreviation. IGP was made for the original German Shepherd that was not the most active dog. We know that. And that dog need a little bit the lure to jump over it, which was the dumble. >> Okay. >> But the Malin, no. >> No. But no, >> but that but the for the jumping, we want the jumping to be the first idea. That's the thing. The jumping goes to [ __ ] when the first idea is to plow over it to get the dumbbell. >> Yes, that's a very good sentence what Michael said there. In Flemish we call it the jump must be the first idea and the dumble must be the second idea. When the dumble becomes the first idea, you have a shitty jump or you have the dog that runs around the jump and just takes the dumble. Okay. So to select the athletic capacity of the dog, the IGP is not selective enough in jumping. And that's why I would suggest, hey, you have a maximum for every dog. Why not changing it in a variable height where I have a dog that is 13 years old, still does do a very good tracking and a very good bite work, but due to the too high jump one meter, I cannot compete anymore. And due to the A-frame that is even now by going lower still a problem. I think that we must go to a system where the owner decides I put the height for my dog like I want and we must accept that the higher the dog jumps the more points that dog should get so that in the breeding we can see oh that's a dog from that belot line and the hurdle 1 m 60 that's a sister the hurdle 1 m 50 bloody hell maybe they are good trainers but there is also a good genetic and now I can go to the genetic jumping and that's interesting and you select towards a system where the owner decides I want to save my dog and yes I accept the fact that if I only jump 30 cm that I will have five times less points than a dog that jumps 1 m 50. And the A-frame the same thing. The higher it goes, the more points you get. I come out of a period when I did start in the game, it was 250, then the lower to 230. And now they did implement the obliged ramp down to go down. What for [ __ ] is that again? >> Which is even more dangerous, especially when the jumping isn't the main idea. It's getting the dumbbell and then they're jumping off the top and flipping around. And

>> I would tell the older owners, you get two points more if your dog if your dog landed well without going through the legs and so on and so on. So that's how you implement you oblige the trainer to train a certain way that they must be very careful how they learn the dog to go up and when the dog Hey the A-frame that's not a jump it's a crawling exercise and you go down it's climbing it is not jumping >> and that's what people don't understand. You must not learn your dog to jump the A-frame. you must learn the dog to climb the A-frame and you do that slowly and it's no problem, you know. So, but the problem is that they tell the federations A-frame is no good. We are from animal welfare and what does the people do that do sit in the seats? They bend over and they say yaw we take away and we will put the ramp and yaw and they salute. No, you must not salute. You must say no, we don't agree. >> Yeah, they they pull down their federation and make it more and make it more dangerous. >> And you know, I did post something I think one or two days ago. I repost something that people were posting. It's a post that I did in 2006. That's years ago. And in 2006, I did write an article in Honda Sport Magazine, a Dutch magazine. And somebody did translate it. It's not perfectly translated in English and in German. And there already I say, well, we have a big problem. They oblige us to only train positive. They oblige us to only train positive. And that's a dangerous tendency. So I was already ringing the bell. And nobody did do nothing with it. Nobody. The only people that did do something with it is Michael and me. We started a school for that reason. And we not going to speak behind the corners, but yesterday we had negotiations with the government that has problems with the eco ben and they want to go for a school that's unique, you know, and that's what the federation should have done instead of selling membership cards. No, you must earn your membership card by going over a school. And a school must teach everything about positive reinforcement, everything about negative reinforcement and everything about the combination. And the combination is in old Germany is po we do we do neop and in French the same thing. B and we do the opposite. In English they speak about carrot and whip. We do the opposite. Whip and corro. So you must dare to say hey we need all the motivators and at the end it's easier folks. It is the old wise farmer that told me when I was 14 years old with a bamboo stick because we use the bamboo stick a lot. With the bamboo stick you must be able to pet your dog make harmony. With the same bumble stick, you

must be able to give a direction to the dog, the tactile commands. With the same bumble stick, you must be able to speed up the exercise. Sit down, stand still, the reinforcer of the command. And with the same bamboo stick, when the dog does not do, you must do bum bum bum as a correction. And after the correction, you must be able to throw the bamboo and say, "Fetch." That guy that never went to school did learn me everything about dog training. It's easy as that. And if you understand that, you will become a top trainer. And if you don't understand that, you're dumb as a pump. What can I say? >> So, so Bart, that that story brings me reminds me a lot of of the the silver school I did. And uh regarding to that topic, we got a question and I mean I know the answer but um the question is why did you stop teaching seminars and started doing your NAPO post schools? Can I answer it Michael or do I answer it or do I answer it and you answer it? Go ahead. >> Well, you know I did do more than thousand seminars in my life. That's a lot. And in the beginning, you do it for free. And then they ask you so much that you have no time anymore for your own dog. And then they start to pay you because in the beginning I even did not receive kilometer. I did not receive the money for the gasoline. I had to pay for my own hotels because they did put you in a crappy sleeping room and so on and so on. But Michael and I, we stopped doing seminars because you become the trick master. People don't have a system. They want to solve a problem. For example, the out. A lot of dogs don't have out because in training, the dog always receive out together with pinch collar. Out together with pinch collar. And the dog is not hearing the out. He feels the out. And in competition, you cannot give that feeling. And because your dog is not trained on hearing, the dog will not out. So we were sick and tired to be the trick masters on seminars where you are just there to solve one little thing and that one little thing that you solve with a trick after five six sessions the trick is gone and it's not working anymore. We know that and you know on seminars you have also people that go to one seminar and then they go to another seminar from another person and to another seminar from another person and there is a lot of contradictionary going on and believe me all the people that are on a high level do things right but you must stay in that system and not jumping from one system to another system and to another system and people become system jumpers and that doesn't work and and I we became trick masters. We we wanted to be more performant and we said no more

tricks. Now is a school and this is the basics that you must know because after a seminar at the end people come to you and say and how must I learn now my dog to sit? Are you kidding me? We give you all the ingredients. >> Yes. So as soon when they would leave when we would pack up they'd say okay so I'm going to go home and how do I and that's the thing they need to find what motivates their dog >> a typically thing you see a dog doing everything well I did comment catch it lately okay then you see dogs send away full speed plats no plats the dog is looking looking and then go down and that means that that dog learned in training for Bal plats for house toy down and then in competition you turn it around you say now you do first down. No no no said the dog I must find my toy first and then I go down. It is training mistakes. Another thing that happens is for house the dog runs 2 m and then go down or for spins around three times and then full speed continues. Those dogs showed that they did receive poet. They did always receive a reward and then one day there was no down and then cames a plus correction. The dog did not take that very well and the whole situation became aversive and that's why the dog is doing a erat handlong. They start to spin around three times and then continue. And in training the dog trainer does see that I for hours the dog turn turns turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turn turns for hours for hours and then dog continues the dog is rewarding that shitty spinning with the whole behavior that's typically we see that all over the world and that's why you must have systems systems systems in the beginning in IGP you need a dog that go full speed so you need a type of direct reward whatever it is okay a ball or what and Then the day that you dare to say plats, you must do that separately. You can put that dog on a long leash and when the dog pulls and pulls and pulls high drive, low speed, you can say down. You can say plats and if it doesn't do, you block him and he will do. And then you say for hours again because a lot of people do that and then they do one mistake for hours plat and then say and they let loss align they let the leash go and what is a dog learning when there is loose leash there is no more plats it's deadly >> you must think about all that [ __ ] when Michael and I work on a forouse the first day we say plats there will be no ball that when the dog is disobedient he cannot not reward himself because people

say for hours plat and the dog is disobedient and then grabs the ball. The dog is rewarding himself with [ __ ] disobedience. It's deadly. Don't put that bloody ball there. And then to double proof because lately a friend of mine said, "Bart, I have a perfect dog, but it dares to blow off in the sendway." I say, "How do you train with a ball?" When you say plats, does he do it on training? Yes. Because there is no ball. I say it's easy. You put the ball and you make it visual for the dog that there is a ball. And when you walk away, you let somebody take that ball away. >> Yeah. >> The dog is convinced the ball is there. Now you say for us, you say, "Platz, of course, the dog will ignore you." You say, "Okay, we stop training." Negative correction. Huh? Why did I not think about that? He tells me. He say, "Because I do think about it. We always in chess game you must always be one move ahead. One move ahead. One move ahead. And if the dogs can reward themsel with disobedience, why should they be obedient? There is no reason. It's the same thing in Belgian ring sport. For three years, they let a dog go bite. Three years. Okay. And then then they decide, okay, now the dog is very decisive. Now we're going to recall him 3 m before he bites. Of course, the dog is not coming back because for 3 years you always let him go and then you whistle and the dog is continuing boom and bites. That's what you learn. It doesn't work like that. It doesn't work like that. And and that's what people must understand. And then in a lot of cases like that, people will use the e-collar to try to get them to come back for those last three meters. And then when the dog bites, they let go. And what is the dog? The e-collar is a a reinforcer >> to bite. I did see it as a helper. >> Yes, I did see it as a helper in the in the specific recall. When it's done well, the dogs run faster and faster the last six meters so that you don't have the time to recall them. That's a good recall creates more desire. >> Mhm. >> Resistance makes the love bigger. >> Yeah. >> Still good. Yeah. Some of the old things are still good. Huh. You know, you shouldn't forget that. Huh? >> True. So you're talking about systems and there's another question of Lisbet Hun Stefan and he's asking how does the Nippopo system start in its former evolution and what do you think will be the further evolution of it? >> Oo >> so I think will it still change? >> Well yes Nepop is a modern language and all modern language non-stop evaluates and change. For example Greek and Latin are dead languages. They don't have a word for computer. That's why they are dead languages. When I was in Africa,

Swuahili was not ready for the new world. Swahili was the language. And for example, the bowl we called it Mupil Cucha Kaboomu. The Mupila was the thick in the product in kachu. What's the name in English? in rubber >> to play soccer with >> and then mila the the water hoses the plastic to give water mat to wamay. >> So they did do conjunctions to make their language modern >> and we believe that Nepop po is a non-stop evaluating language where you the trainers will go much further than Michael and I ever did do. We see that more and more that when we had all the information that you guys have now and if you dare and if you do because that's a problem a lot of people keep the dogs for 20 years in the diapers and then so people keep the dog too long in the diapers they don't dare to go to the next step the next step the next step they are non-stop chunking and they don't continue so neop the ingredients will bring knew very far, farther than ever gone. And if Michael and I would have all this information when we were younger, we would be much further than we are now. You know, >> much much much further. You guys are going to push it to levels you cannot believe. >> You guys going to push it. >> Yeah. >> 100%. >> Thank you both for your knowledge. Thank you very much. >> Well, can I answer that, Andre? If the dunkey is not thirsty, you cannot make them drink. And there is a lot of dunkeys in the world and they >> protest with heart and soul against all that modern information. It's like we are convinced that we are 100% right. Like Copernicus was 100% convinced that the world is round. Well, >> Copernicus died for that. Well, one thing people do get in a they don't they don't show enough respect for experience. It's like if a plumber comes to our house and he's well respected and he's been a plumber for 30 years and he's built a lot of houses and he tells me that a certain pipe must be used in a certain attachment. I'm not going to tell him because I had have had one house in my life that it's going to be a certain way. I mean, he has some expertise and yeah, there you see there's some people who have they've had one dog and they've trained only in positive and they know more than you who've tra who've trained for 40 between the two of us about 80 years and you know I mean so you can't speak with those people. There's a very good one. E, you start all at level one. Most of us in dog training, we are in conscience that we are incompetent. We are incompetent and we don't know. And then we see we are walking a dog and bloody hell, Andre calls his dog back and he comes back. Patrick calls his dog

back and he come back. Dominic calls his dog and he come back. And my dog that I love so much, I call him. And that bloody bastard does not come back. Now I start to be cognitive that I'm incompetent. And now because I'm proud and I'm a little bit interested, I start to do research. I research in books. I research in videos. And I start to assemble information. And now I start to be cognitive, very competent. And now I start to write books and make videos and da and da da da. But I'm still not at the level where I can do all these things on automatic pilot. The highest level >> doing them. >> Yes. The highest level of competence is when you are unaware that you are competent but you do everything perfect. That is the highest level and you will reach that guys. It's like the doctor you enter his room and you speak and ah Bart is sick did they hear you speak and they know already what you have you see what I mean I exaggerate a good guy or a good person expertise expertise is so important you cannot believe it's like experts hear your car running and they say oh that engine has bad fuel or there is water in the carburetor they know exactly and that's their expertise by hearing the engine. They hear that, you know. So expertise is so important and expertise you can only assemble by doing it a lot. And by doing it a lot, you become so good that you do it on reflex response. Something happens and boom, you react. You have no time to think about it. >> That's why for in a lot of the seminars, people would come and they'd be so depressed. we'd be just show your dog and then they'd show their dog and quickly we found a solution and they thought, "Oh my gosh, that's like magic." But it's not. It's it's experience because maybe they hadn't seen it before, but we'd seen it many times before. And so to them, it's magic, but it's not. It's it's it's experience. Maybe it's a little bit different, but that's the thing. And >> Michael and I over the years when people show their dogs, people are not used to perform in front of public. They are not used to be watched and people are clumsy. We know that. And that's why when the seminar was finished, we stay and we watch what happens on the field. And then the same people a lot of time take the dogs and now they are themselves. And now you see what you want to see. >> They are not thinking. They're just pum they do it on reflex response. They say aha tomorrow I will ask that person again. So what we learned is that when you ask people to show things they are a little bit blocked and when they are in free time and they are with two three people they are in their delirium and

they are themsel and that's what Michael and I stay done in the club and then we watch and say okay that's what we want to see now we know the real dog and now we know the real handler and now we can help. And that's important when you see people working on those reflexes, the the automatic things. It's it's so important, you know, and people always ask Mark and me, when am I ready to go in competition? And then we say, well, you're ready to go to competition when you can repeat three words. When you train, we're going to say you three words. And if at the end of the training your training was good and you can repeat the three words, now you're ready. That means that you must be able to concentrate on something else than your dog. You must do your dog on automatic reflex response so that you can concentrate on other details. Now you're ready. And it looks easy what I say you dare, but you can test it. It's not easy. >> It's a lot the same also with horses. If you're getting on and you're having to constantly keep the horse going straight or keep them from spooking or and you're concentrating on this, you're you're not on automatic pilot. But when you can go get hop on a horse and go somewhere and be talking to somebody about where you're going to dinner that night, you're in a much better position. >> An anecdote about this. It was with Bumby Andre. You knew the Bambi Flip Barter need. >> Yes. I am driving >> I'm driving with Bambi to Frank Rottle. I never forget it. And the drive from Antwerp to Frank is about six, seven hours. And I'm there and we do a track and Frank is on the phone and blah blah blah blah blah. And then I stopped to say, "Hey, Frank, I did drive seven hours to do tracking. Are you kidding me?" "Hey, concentrate." And then it he gave me the best answer I ever received in my life. He said, "Bart, I must not track. Your dog must track." I said, "Fuck, he's right." And then I did shut my [ __ ] mouth. >> Yeah. I remember when we used to go and we would arrive and Frank would be tracking and Frank would wave to us and yell, "Hey, I'll be back and I just have two more dogs to do." and and then he's getting on his phone >> and the dog is tracking. And I came from a culture of literally you must be a mile away. All dogs in the car, no speaking. >> We're tracking now. Super quiet. And there's Frank. And I'm And Frank would even say, "Come on over and watch the track." We're like, "We don't want to step on." He's like, "Come on. >> The dog is tracking." He would, "Yes, no problem." So it's and when you start to approach it like that, I think your dog learns better tracking. They are

learning distractions from the beginning that it's not super quiet because I'm sure you've heard of people saying, "I got the worst track because there were dogs barking in the car behind the fence of my track." Right? But if your dog is used to it because you >> you just track. So it's the importance importance of of uh training with distractions. You have to use that in your daily training. >> Yes. And even not acting like it's distractions. It's like real life. >> It's one thing. But when your dog is motivated, there is no distraction. >> Exactly. >> And when there is distraction, it is because your dog is not enough motivated. There is not enough ignition. It hangs together. >> Right. If you if you need it to be perfect if you need it to be perfectly quiet, then you need to go back to a 15 foot track, >> you know. >> Yes. >> And not only that, you're not prepared. >> I remember the same guy because we learned a lot from Frank. We are on a track with Frank and he's on the phone because no, everybody's always disturbing him and he's tracking and his dog passes an article say, "Frank, what the heck is that?" And then no problem. He picks up the article. He watches his strike. He walks 20 yards and put it a little bit further and then he wait until the duck come boom soft. I say, "Uh-huh." So he let make mistakes, you know. It's it's strong. But it's all on automatic pilot. And that you must dare to do. We want to interfere too much. As a beginner in track, I'm a maniac of control. It's me. I'm a control freak. And that's why maybe obedience is so good and bite work is so good because I can control with my eyes. And that was the biggest mistake I was doing in the nose work. I wanted to control the nose with my eyes. And that's why I was not good in the beginning >> lately. >> I remember Yeah, >> I remember. Go ahead. No, I I remember tracking with that monster that was KMO and I remember on this track I was like it goes right and Kimmo's pulling forward and I'm stopped because I'm like he's supposed to be turning right and I'm sure he's supposed to be turning right and I'm holding him there. This was like in 2012 and finally Bart's just like let him go. If he wants to go forward just let him go and let him find it. So I let him go and 3 ft later he turns right. So I was wrong. >> Yes. >> Yeah. But >> it happens sometimes. >> And and then lately I do work a lot with that black [ __ ] because due to my surgery I'm not the Bart that was very athletic. So I'm not the old Bart anymore. So I'm happy that I have a little 60 pounder that is easy to control. And then my attitude in the tracking is h I don't care. And because

I don't care, it's so good. And I click release the dog just before the article. One sentiment. Click release. To me, everything against the rules. It works perfect because that's the system that we do when the dog does the send games. We always click release. So for the dog is nothing new. We click release her. No problem. So, and the click release creates more love for the job because just before she wants to pick it up, I click release. [ __ ] She says, "I had I nearly had my my article and you click release me." Yes. And now one day she will be stung and she will take then she will sit. I know that will come and that's what I want. So we create Yes. Well, it's against all the rules that we did learn years ago. Years ago they said never click release on track. You never call your dog out of the blind. Never. Never say here fools when a dog is barking. That was against the code of top training because the dog is going to anticipate this set. Yes, perfect. Let the dog anticipate and then you stop training. Anticipation must come. But you must know what do I do with the anticipation and I don't kill the dog. Eh, I stop the training. I say, "Okay, we train again in two or three days from now and on track we train tomorrow and no more love and I put you back and no more ball playing, nothing." And let them think about their mistake because they don't know they were mistaken. They just anticipate to make it go faster. It's the most beautiful thing that can happen to dog training. The anticipation of the dog, but you must make love with the anticipation. You must know how to handle that thing. So Michael and Bart you have talked a lot about ignition expectation you have talked a lot about repetition reflex response and uh another big point for training uh out of the book the talent code of Daniel Coyle is the importance of a master coach. So how important is a master coach? That's my question. >> Ah I like to start here. I love that question. Well, a master coach is a person that pushes and motivate the subject people, animal, in this case dogs to other boundaries. So, for example, if you look to the videos that Michael did post lately from the horse, non-stop, we push the horse to do better. It's a young fal one year old I think or two years in a shaping program and everything every time we push further further further. We want more behavior. The big problem is that people always stay in the same behavior and never try to push the animal the person to do better. And the master coach must motivate to do better but it must be feasible. That's very important. always push but it must be feasible and that is

the master coach and the master coach can be the trainer for young kids from five six years and that master coach for example in tennis must create love for the tennis that the tennis player wants to become better that's love and if you don't >> that's the job yeah that's the job of the young ones it's not to make it perfect it's to make the love for the game with the puppies it's not to make their healing perfect. It's not to make their sit down. It's make them love obedience and working with you and having a bond. And >> we we see that too much people with puppies train on perfection. And yes, it's perfect, but there is something missing. Gasoline, there is no heart and soul. And when there is heart and soul, oh god, don't let do that dog another job because they collapse together. They only know that little monkey drill. And we know that. And we let and we play with the nature. And for example, a guy that was my master coach was certainly a French guy, Franual Levier. And he was a lifestyle coach because he did criticize a little bit my lifestyle and he was 100% right to criticize it. But he did do it the way that I accepted it. Other people did do the same, but I did not accept it. from Frana. I did accept it because he drink did when we did drink 10 beers, he was drinking 11 beers. When we we did wake up at 8:00 in the morning, he was already there at 6:00 in the morning. So, he was an example. And that guy could control me. You cannot believe he he controlled me by not controlling me. He did control me by challenging me. I I I cannot explain that he had the way to do it. Franis was a magic man for me. Maybe not for other people, but for me it did work. And he had the right approach to make Bart better. And my parents did do a fantastic job, but they could never finalize the thing like Franis did it because my parents did say, "Hey, you must wake up. Hey, you must do that." But it was boring. And Franis could do it like that. A way that I was challenged. That's the trick of the master coach. You must challenge the student, a person, a dog, whatever, you know. And what works on one dog will not work on another dog. You must find that magic key to make it work. You know, the magic key. >> What I like is that when you're progressing, that you're always progressing, but you're taking such little steps, you just ask for a little bit more the next day. A little bit more. It's It's only a It's only a little bit more. It's hardly noticed, but it's going very rapidly. You're moving a very rapidly, but it's the changes. What you're expecting a little bit more, a little bit is is so gradual that it's natural that it fits in with

with harmony and it seems almost obvious. >> You know, when we post things lately, we post a lot, people think we have nothing else to do. Well, we do that the moment that we train with our animals and we do lifestyle with our animals and it's maximum 1 hour a day maximum. I mean, we've been in meetings the entire day today. >> No time. And then later we take a video and then people think, "Oh, Michael and Bart, they have the live. They do nothing. They just train animals." No, it's not true. It is not true. It is not true. But we train, we know, we have a system, we believe in it, and we have what we call a chess game. What is our desirata today? The briefing. And then the debriefing at the end. What did we reach from our goals and hey it's like tracking if on track with food for example you track every footprint with food and then you put an article and then behind the article food. The dogs that like the food they will eat the food before the article. They will skip the article and take the food behind the article. That's typically another typically thing is when they take the food they start chewing on it or they swallow it and then they go up to the other and the next and the next and the next and while they're chewing or swallowing up the article is there and they skip it. So you must now not put food before the article and not put food behind the article. But don't do that five times because then no food means there is an article. >> The dogs are not stupid. Okay. So, you must nonstop change that or you make a corner with food and then on purpose you throw food behind the corner and the dog must be obedient to the truck and not on food. And these are the little tricks how you learn and then ah I must make my article more motivational and then people start to give jackpots at the article. That's deadly because now you make a dog that runs from one article to the other article. Yes, the dog will find articles but will skip track and in IGP track is 79 points and track must be done mini tickets. Boom boom. So whatever you do, you must think on what you do. And then Michael and I, we were using the tracking system that we learned in Germany. And in Germany, you have beautiful tracking fields. And then we come in the desert of Mexico. And then we come in Miami where in the long grass there is as much rattlesnakes as fires. And there you are with your European techniques. You must nonstop reconsider yourself. And then on the footprint you do the same like on the article when dog is at footprint you make it an article article article article article or you must be very click release whatever what works works

but the European system does not work where it is hot and where there is fire ends and when there is snakes and people always oh B has a gun. Yes, I have a gun. When I see a snake, bang. We lose a top dog to on a a rattlesnake bite. That's why I have always the gun with me. Okay. And the rattlesnake is there when you don't expect it. Well, I'm ready. I have it with me and thousand days nothing happened. Well, it's like yesterday I'm cleaning the water pong. Two snapping turtles. You know what a snapping turtle is? >> That's a turtle when they bite you, they're vicious. You cannot believe. And yes, they bite. Yes, they bite. So, and that's why we are very careful by letting our dogs go in the water pond. I must be sure that there is no snapping turtles because a big snapping turtle >> can snap the leg of the dog and cluck. It's like there is no more leg >> really. Oh yeah. Oh. Hey, >> last year I killed one that was it was it was huge. Uh-huh. It was huge. It was size of an enormous watermelon. >> Okay. >> And this is things that never happen in Europe. In Europe, there is no snapping turtles. There is no And certainly not in Germany, there is no rattlesnake that can kill your dog. Fire sometimes, but not too much neither. >> So, >> so you should come back, huh? Well, I I miss the German tracking fields, especially from Hustle Laben where Frank knows all the people and there is kilometers and kilometers and kilometers around where you can use the tracking fields and you know exactly where it's allowed to track and where it's not allowed to track. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Because there you still have the old German where yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And those farms still there are from it has a special name in German. I don't know the name anymore. And there he he he did work in that industry. So he knows all the foremans. He knows all those people. So he knows where he can track and so on and so on. And that was making me mad. If I see the last catch it in Poland, I see that they did do track on quite long grass that you must try to train on quite long grass. When the farmer sees it, he shots at you. >> Yes, >> of course. So I see that worldwide they always go and pick something that nobody in a normal country is allowed to train on. Michael and I, we have here a little farm. We can let the grass grow very long and we decide when we cut it but normally when grass is long there is not one farmer that accepts you to good tracking there they don't accept it because that grass must become hay and I see the same thing the aker um has been turned around and they just did plant seed and there is little corn that grows

>> there's little corn now you must try and go track on a field where little corn is growing If the farmer does see it, he shoots at you. >> Yes. >> But in competition, they put that and I'm thinking, how is that possible? >> Respect the farmer. Don't do this things. You see what I mean? So there is something that is problematic also in IGP. And if you live where Frank lives, no problem. But if you live in Aren in Ken, try to find tracking fields or in Switzerland, try to find tracking fields. Dominic, where you live, I think you have still tracking opportunities. >> Yes. So, here I mean, it's it's always a little bit tricky with the farmers, but here's also we we could have a lot of tracking fields out here. Yeah, >> of course. I know a little bit the environment, but you still ask the farmer. Then, if you have a deal with the farmer, you must have a deal with the guy that yakvart, then you must have a deal with the guy that does supervise the hunting, the hunting boss, and so on and so on. So you must be negotiating with everybody and that is the big problem from the future. For example, catching Germany, I think the next time there will be 150 dogs. They already had to drive 40 minutes to find tracking fields where 140 or 150 people can track. It's not easier, folks. The tracking fields is the modern problem. >> It is a modern problem and maybe it's a business model. You buy two three acres and you tell people well I I've just turned it around and you come track on my fresh fresh and aker and then after one week you turn it around again and turn it around again. So I mean what can you do? I remember >> go ahead. Have you heard? >> Sorry. Have you heard that there will be monuring at the next satset? I did hear that there will be a ring spot and Dominic will participate. So >> yes, you will meet again Dominic will a Dominic. What is the breed of dog you participate with? >> It's a Dutch >> which is a Dutch shepherd which is not the typically breed for Monduring you know. >> Yes >> because muring is always linked to malino muring. Malino I know it. >> Yeah. So >> but but but it's it's a good it's a good way. And is there other breeds that will participate? Dobermans, Reason, Schnowzers? I I have no clue. >> No, I mean uh next not not this weekend. So the next weekend will be the German championships where I will participate and uh there's also some other breeds that like I think two giant schnozers, >> a few a few German shepherds, but the rest is mostly melon wars. M >> by the way about monuring I did read a post I think one week ago that there was a ESF club in Germany that did prohibit people to do muring.

>> Can you specify there because >> the whole >> the whole espho okay >> can you spec can you explain that a little bit and then I will give an answer on that. H >> yes they they had a a meeting a general meeting I think the yearly meeting or whatever that's called >> that's correct >> and um there they decided that it's forbidden on all uh SV odds scop so on all their training fields it's forbidden to do clubs yeah it's forbidden to do monitoring >> okay and I did hear I did read the motivation there was also they did motivate we have enough erat we have enough other possibilities to make fun with dogs. And then there was another reason we don't, >> how should I say, we don't make the dog bite on a person. We bite on a sleeve a toy because that's how in the old days before you guys were in the sport and people from my age will remember that the sport people did hire a German I think it was Federson that lady did write a reason why IGP must be allowed And she did say that it was based on prey and that the arm was prey and it was not on men aggression. And that's why we are very careful to do what we call zone defense and aggression on people to make the dog bark. We know that that works very well because it's a deeper voice and the dog is not thinking on biting the toy, biting the toy, biting the toy. The dog is ho ho h how in the deep barking. And normally if you do a zone defense, the reward is you walk away from the dog. The victory for the dog is a no fight, a no bite. And h a dog has what we call a ritual. Deep bark. Oh, to chase away all the intruders. That's a ritual. And typically for praise I I yappen that's typically and that's why today in the barking they learn the dogs to bark at the open site. What we did with Bambi by the way years ago the dog from Peter did learn to bark on a person and on the world championships FCI in Breda. I never forget it. I was in the blind on myself with horse chops and with the red >> thing and with a cowboy hat and when the dog was barking every bark was bringing my arm higher and higher until I did grab a ball and slowly that ball came visual and then I did throw it away and when you throw it away you have two seconds of no barking when they hunt and then take the ball. Then hun vexel the dog does change in drives from barking towards hunting and there is not too many dogs that during the catching a barking if you watch that natural thing and that's why in recent videos we show the same barking on the [ __ ] where the ball is on the rope and we pull it the rope and 1 second 2 seconds 3 seconds later she can take it and that's why you keep that very good barking because if

you reward the barking with preywow and then you and they cannot bark anymore. A dog locks in prey. And that's why people start to do the zone barking, the barking on the person. And if you don't understand that, it looks like the dog is barking and is aggressive on a person and they go very far in it. And yes, they whip the dog a little bit and that and the dog goes in aggression and so on and so on. And that's a dangerous picture because Pedan Federson said, "We just do games with the dog and the arm is a game." And if you analyze it very well, the arm is covered with Jude sleeve. And Jude is by far the preferred biting texture by genetics by all the dogs always. You cannot believe why but it is what it is. I think and we think it's more nice to bite on. The smell excites the dogs. They love it. And that's why in Belgian ring sport all the biting spots are covered with a Jude sleeve. One, the dogs do love it. Two, when they bite on the Jude sleeve, there is a lot of saliva that destroys the sleeve. So, we have to put a new sleeve on it. And remember, if the sleeve is not destroyed, you destroy the teeth of the dog. So, that's why we like the jute. And in Belgian ringport, there's another reason, and that's the politic reason. And we can say for the same reason, yes, but the person we do send the dog on has biting spots in Jude and that's where the dog is biting on the biting spots in J. And there is no person in the streets that wears the Jude jacket. It's based on toy prey. It's a politic idea behind it. And that's why we try to always speak about that to people, you know. >> Mhm. >> Very interesting. Yes, it is interesting. It is. >> And then you see in some sports where they have the dogs encouraging the dogs to go for the next and such. But h >> so you can you can understand the decision of the SV part. You can understand it or >> I have problems with that decision. Then I would say >> I would say to the muring people to counter the fact that you send the dog on a human being. We do send the dog on a costume with J. You must play >> the same game, the same argumentation to keep the bite arm. You must do the same thing with the muring suit where you tell Yes. And that's why it's not a dangerous dog. And if you prohibit that, you prohibit also the sleeve bite on the IGP sleeve. >> Exactly. An easier way is to go to Eris Fo >> because that was what one of the people did say. >> Yeah. >> But but there you see that a lot of people don't know how to counterargument and I would like to counterargument and that they are trapped in their own arguments and then they must say well we must stop bite work on the sleeve also.

Okay, then everybody goes to the Aris Fo. It's over and out because the answer that I did read there is a lot of holes in that answer and that can be countered. But at the end, you know, if you're a member from a club, you accept or you don't accept and if you don't accept, you go away and sometimes going away is the easiest way. Huh. >> But there there also is the compromise. Of course, the Mandio ring people would have to compromise if they are gonna make bite spots, right? So political reason if they I don't know if they're willing to do that but I'm just saying >> for public reasons and political reasons sometimes compromise is necessary in order to keep things moving forward >> because now come Dominic I've been helper all my life and I know exactly what a pence is in ringport and I don't like the what do you call the elastic suspenders I never like them >> I make a pens hanging on my hips and hanging. No, having support for my ankles. So, I don't need suspenders because I know that the suspenders are the reason that you have big problems in your backbone. And in ring sport, there is a lot of how should I say movements where you bend over the dog and and the suspenders and bending over the dog is no good for your back. I tell you that >> it's already no good without suspenders. So with suspenders you make it worse. Now how can I make my costume lighter by not putting Jude sleeves on it? By putting Jude sleeves on it you add minimum 4 kilo to that pen minimum. And then when there is a little bit saliva over when it rains a little bit immediately add two three kilo because the jute is absorbing moisture you cannot believe. And that's why it's such a nice biting texture because it absorbs the wetness of the saliva so that the second dog can have a nice grip because if all the dogs bite on linen it becomes very slippery. Is the same like biting on a leather cover. >> After two dogs it's so slippery that the dogs cannot hold it anymore. >> So there is a lot of motivation. So me I would say monuring. Yes. And the helpers must learn to accept to work with Jude cover. And then the problem is you see a lot of bites in the quadriceps and in how we call it the the hamstrings of helpers. So you must now cover the whole suit in Jude. And that's why in Belgian ring sport we cup and we stay under the knee and we stay from the elbow to the hand and that's it and a little bit inside of the arm. So we cap, we focus the bite on limited spots. But there you must accept to carry more bulk as a helper. And you must accept that if you want the dog to bite everywhere in the chest, that chest also should be true. And then you must think, huh, is

taking the bite spot away the way we can promote our game or must we go more to very static work like we do in Belgian ring sport. So you must find a compromise that works for everybody. So it's a very complicated matter because die hards from monuring will say no we don't want jud I understand very well the mentality of the people but there is a reason why the joot >> yeah but we want to keep bite sports alive you know. >> Yes we do. And then there is another thing you must understand. And if a dog bites in your chest, how can a dog bite full in your chest? It's nearly impossible. So the dog hangs in your chest with two teeth. Those canines will break sooner or later because canines are not made to hang 40 kilo and then to swing them around. They will break. Is that animal friendly? You see what I mean? So >> yeah, >> and so on and so on. >> And so on and so on. So I mean there is a reason why we in the Belgian ring sport did stay on those bite spots and why we wanted the full grip because people do underestimate the value of a full grip. You know where it comes from. I did hear it in the old days. Doc sport did no dog sport they did stop the how should I say the hability of dogs to pull the cart because it was against animal welfare that dogs were pulling the cart and then a minister of animal welfare in Belgium did prohibit with a new law it's forbidden for dogs to pull the cart the next day 500,000 dogs not five e 500,000 dogs were in the water with a stone around the neck. The economic reality was that there was no money to keep animals alive without a job. That was the economic context. Lucky us there were some people that did keep their working animal. And every Sunday after the church in a circle they did do tricks and that's how ring sport did start. And one of the games was biting. What you must understand is that in the old days those malino were used to be a shepherd dog. They had to push the cattle and to push the cattle the dog had to turn the head turn the head and to bite as low as possible and as deep as possible so that the meat had still a value when the animal was slaughtered. That was the reason because if a dog bite very nipped with their canines, they damage a lot of meat. So they wanted to see a full push bite. That's where it comes from. Now you >> It's unbelievable. And that's why the selection has been done. And in IGP, we want the opposite. We want a full grip and it has to pull. And the check say that very well. We don't want to see a dog hanging on a bag of potatoes. There must be a little bit contouring. He must pull pull pull pull. And the malino that by genetic has been

selected to push push push push push. Now we must learn that dog. The opposite in IGP. Now he must bite full and pull pull pull. And we have training techniques to go there. There's no problem. You can learn every dog that pushes. you can learn him to pull. There is positive reinforcement, there is negative reinforcement tricks, and so on and so on. And the classic trick is when the dog likes it, you just tap a little bit on the nose of the dog. And that little tap, he starts to pull. And when he pulls deep, you stop tapping on the nose. That's it. And you learn that to young dogs. It's easy. When you have hope, you can give pressure. And when on that pressure, the dog goes backwards and still full. You stop the pressure. And in addition to that, you can give him the sleeve and so on and so on. So, >> but one second one one second but sorry for interrupting you but I think um Dominic am I right? There's one question left. >> Uh yes, we have one more one more question from >> Okay. Okay. Just just one last one. And I think that's that's a pretty interesting one that we already discussed a lot in the in the gold schools. And the question is um maybe there's a different answer from both of you. How do you define? So a definition what is hope? Because in in inop system we talk a lot about hope. The dog has to have hope to go training. But what defines hope? Hope is the intrinsic desire to go in heaven. It means that we create habituations. For example, if you look to the video that Michael shows with her horse, that little horse eats like a tiger. Okay, easy. So, what did Michael do? She did put the bait, the food in the trailer. And now it's on the horse to go in the trailer. And in the beginning, that food bin is half in the trailer that the animal sniffs it. And then you see I go away, I come back up, and they go in. So, you create hope. It's the way you catch fish. Eh, when you are a fisher, you go bait. The place where you go fish, you throw bait, the fish swims and find food for free. The next day, the same thing. Day number three, the same thing. Day number four, there is no bait anymore. What the heck? And now you create frustration. And now you the fisher in thread of throwing bait you put your angle your how you call that your rope in the water and now instead of finding bait because the fish is frustrated because there is nothing for free anymore now they see some bop and they eat it. Hope creates something and hope means you create a habituation and you slowly take away that habituation and now you have that magic thing happenings. there is hope and to not lose faith and that's why in the

Catholic church now and then they have to make a miracle otherwise people have no faith it's typically and the jackpot dopamine speaks very well about that you must take away the habituation and that is >> I think I think for for me hope is where the dog has a lot of things that it wants And that's why when I raise puppies, I like them to be very food motivated, as food motivated as I as I can get them and make them crazy for it. But not just food. They must like their ball. They must like a bottle. They must like if I pick up a stick, they must like if I have a glove and I am out training and I need a reward, I have something in my I want them to like everything. So when they like everything, they have a lot of ignition for everything. They have a lot of things they want. And when there's a lot of things they want, there's a lot of things that they'll do to get it. And there's also a lot of things that you can take away. So the hope must be invisible. The lure must be invisible. That's very strong. Eh, because people train with a visible ball and with visible foot. That's a lure. And that works well. Now how take you take the lure away? If you take it away and the animal is hungry or the animal wants the ball, they start offering the behavior when you were luring. They do it from themsel. And now we change the system from active lure. We change it toward active dog. And because the dog is active, now you show the miracle hope. Boom. And they get it. That is the trick. It is always the same thing. Always the same thing. When you add it from in the beginning, you must know how to get it away. How you wean it off or you go to another system. There's so many system that are successful, but hope is so important. You cannot believe hope, hope, hope. And I think that if there's and if you put it in the things things that you have desire for, the more things you can have desire for for your dog, for your horse, for your children, for your workers, the more things people want, the better the better that that that those things can be manipulated and make them happy and in harmony. It's easier to move. If you if you sometimes get a dog that's that comes to you and it doesn't like to eat. It doesn't like to be pet. It doesn't like to go for a walk. It doesn't like anything. It doesn't like it doesn't want anything. It doesn't you can't you can't motivate it. Right. >> So, I had a friend Sorry, Michael. >> Go ahead. >> I had a friend calling me lately said, "Bart, I have the first Molly pup in my life that does not like food." I said, "Oh, okay. Well, I said, "Does the animal is healthy?" Healthy as a rock.

And he was born in the litter from four mates, four little mates. So, okay. So, there was plenty of food. So, the animal could chew and chew and there was still food. I say, "How long do you leave the food there?" "Okay, now 14 minutes." Every day, one minute less. He called me late. is a B. It's unbelievable. Now he eats like a pig. Say, of course, it's normal. If you give them 15 minutes to eat, why should they eat in one minute if they had plenty all their life? So now, and if there is something left, you take it away. No problem. The next day they receive it again. 13 minutes and they eat faster and faster and faster. And now we can start training. There is no other way, folks. >> For example, we had the black [ __ ] here. She did not like food, but she likes prey. So what did Michael do? She did throw the kibble in the air. And then later she did tap the e-collar level one, throw kibble. Tap the eco level one, throw kibble. That dog now eats, I tell you. And when you give medication, you just tap the e-collar and she eats the medication that normally she spits out. But you must dare to go there. And level one is so low that nobody feels it, but it's a motivation for the dog. And level one creates the hope. The food comes and hope is something strong. And folks, hope is something that becomes invisible. An example, I hope to go to the disco. What was the most exciting preparation to go to disco or the fact that nobody is in the empty disco because only you are there? You were going to the disco and I'm going to see girls and I'm going to see boys and da da da. Bloody hell. There is nobody in this [ __ ] disco. So you the hope was so strong and the reality sometimes is disappointing. So and that's why hope is so important. You know folks hope hope. It's like people call back the dog and they show one kibble and the dog said I don't come back for one kibble. That's shitty money. People forget the surprise the element of surprise. And that's why in the school we ask everybody to go to the jackpot dopamine study from professor Sapulski and we Michael and I did see all our lives that people that reward too much have lazy dogs. >> Yes, they have lazy dogs. And you see that in tracking in tracking the direct reward system with food people go too fast to intermittent reward and >> or no reward >> or no reward and there they create speed. Okay? And if you analyze their obedience in the obedience they reward every second and that's why they have a lazy [ __ ] in obedience and that's why they have a crazy animal in tracking. Isn't that amazing? >> Do the opposite. It's easy. They have everything, but they don't see that.

>> You should do it. Yeah. You should do your tracking like you do your obedience. >> And do your obedience like you do your track. >> Yes. That's how you create stability. Boring. Boring. Predictable. Predictable. Now you're slowed off. >> Yeah. and do your obedience like you're tracking and take it away and be totally random and then make jacked up dogs. >> But people cannot do that. >> Dominic is laughing. I see your face. But you you you see what I mean? >> It's it's people make their dogs lazy by overrewarding them and then they start to go in that animation show and cracking whips and jumping around like monkeys and then the dog is just watching. Huh? My master is very sportive today. >> The hope makes the dopamine and not the event. Huh? >> Yes. Now you're there, Andre. And that's the result. Hope makes the dopamine and animals and people are dopamine junkies. And yes, you have bloodlines that have been selected for that. It's like you have blood lines in people that are addicted to cigarettes. You have blood lines of people that are addicted to alcohol. You have bloodlines of people that have no fear from depth. For for example, there is Indian tribes, Indian tribes that they like to work with when they do sky, a very high, how should I say um monuments because they they have no fear of depth. No fear at all. So it's genetically alcohol the same thing. For example, I come my father was smoking addicted. I was a gambler addicted. So and now I did change that addiction in work addiction. You see what I mean? >> And a lot of times the detoxication for your addiction is another addiction that overrules your old addiction. And that's why a lot of people that were addicted to something, they start to run marathons and run decatons and all crazy [ __ ] that you think, huh? >> But they addicted. That's what it is. And me, when I cut grass, I'm addicted. When I when I do wood, everything I do, it's me. What can I say? >> And I'm counting one, two, three. >> But work addiction is also destructive. Or in the long, >> of course. I know. And but I don't like to go in holiday because when I come back in holiday I have 10 times more work than before holiday. So I don't go in holiday. >> More stressed. Yeah. >> I hate holidays. After one day I'm thinking what am I doing here? >> I'm not joking. >> So guys I I I missed my steak a few times earlier because in the first part we talked a lot about Nepopo Silver School and there's an announcement I would like to to place here. So, Michael and B have kindly agreed to donate something for our community for another competition. So, you guys can win online access to the Nepopo Silver School to

the Nepopo online silver school worth €700 by the way. So, it's quite a big fish. Um, all you have to do is use the hashtagpmcop under the following post on Instagram, like the post and share it. And thank you to both of you for this great donation. >> Yeah, thank you very much. >> Awesome success, you guys. >> That's a really great thing. If you Spanish is your mother language, you can tap on Spanish as undertitling. >> If you are German spoken and if English is not your strongest language, you can tap on Deutsches. So you will have the German undertitling, you will have the French undertitling and I think the Flemish undertitling and more undertitling is coming. >> Great. >> Yeah, >> very good idea. And I think the the online silver school was a huge a huge process that uh you you both did and it's it's a it's a big honor for for everybody that that uh did the school was pretty amazed about the all the content and and about the knowledge you get and like you always said it's it's that is an much easier access to more people that maybe cannot afford traveling to Appalor to USA uh to attend the uh in-person schools which will also be there. Um, but that's I think a huge step in the right direction. >> Michael and I are very proud that we did it. If they ask us, do you do ever again? We say no. It did cost water and sweat to realize this. We have been so lucky to work with top people because what looks so easy is not easy. It starts with the person that films it. What must he film? And then when they have film, how do they bring it together? And then now they bring it together in how many paragraphs do you bring it? And then the questions. And then you must find if everything is finished, you must find a person that can put it on a website so that everything works so that people can watch Vimeo that thousands of people can watch simultaneously. Without that there is >> a problem. >> It's Mhm. >> We have been so lucky to work with people that we did not know were so good. >> We have been lucky. >> Yeah. >> And never never we would do it again. Never. >> But the the live school has something the online school doesn't have. It has the atmosphere. Yeah. It has the atmosphere that creates a big attitude. And uh that's really a strong thing. We know that. >> I loved it. Yeah, I loved it. >> And uh the life school gives you goosebumps. The life school gives you I'm not the only crazy guy in the world. There is here 100 people that are like me, crazy about dog training. You feel like you are in a community. We know that. >> Yes. >> You cannot copy that with online. >> But with the live school, we could not reach enough people. That was the

problem. >> Of course. Yeah. Of course. >> And quite selective. financially and so on and so on. >> Well, it's very nice. I think networking with people who are like you who have the same interests and the same you have your nose in the same direction as all the people is, you know, that's that's a nice thing. >> Yeah. And you have to you have to hold together in a whole dog sport world you know that's so important you know >> because people start chasing chasing each others and uh >> I mean >> we we are so little community so we have to hold together. I agree >> Andre. There you say something. And what we try to preach is tolerance for people that do it successfully another way and where the animal shows us it's done a good way. You see what I mean? That's very important to us. And we have no problem that you are vegetarian but don't oblige us to be vegetarian. We will not oblige other people to do things. We just say this is a system in the complete spectrum and if people in for example only positive can go to responsible dog ownership and always on queue with heart and soul perfect. And if you do it with negative reinforcement and you have the same result, perfect. Where we have problems with is that for example a country like Germany and like Belgium in the future will prohibit the e-collar because it is forto there. We don't agree. You see what I mean? So and we will fight that very hard and we are busy behind the screens fighting that very hard. Well, I I I borrowed two horses from a neighbor and he wanted to feel the level of stem that I'm giving to his horses, which is normal, right? So, he felt level one and he said, "Okay, so you can push it." I said, "I I am." He's like, "No, no, I want you to turn it on." I said, "It is turned on." And he's like, "I can't feel it." because to him when we said we were going to use e-collars on the horses and he has he doesn't he didn't want his horses to be quote unquote shocked right so that's that's the stereotype but we're just giving level one yes it's enough it's enough because in negative reinforcement it needs to be the lowest possible level that works and if level one works as a negative reinforcer. That's the level you should use. >> That's the whole point people use. >> People use as as that's a little bit our definition of negative reinforcement that that it needs to be as low as is working. That's the level that it should be because most people use negative reinforcement way too high. And that's where you get in all the problems as it's interpreted as a punishment or it's an aversive stem. But if you're always thinking I must use as negative

reinforcement the lowest working level. That's my level. Then you're in a good spot. >> It's easy. It's the story of the farmer. If I only use the stick to beat my dog with the dog will be afraid of the stick. But we don't have dogs that are afraid of the stick. An example. And then I stopped. We have now five horses. In the morning they are begging. They have 14 acres with fresh grass. In the morning they are begging to come in. They must run about 200 m and then they are in the stables. Okay. In the beginning we had to find them all over the property. Bloody hell, where are them? because they were grazing somewhere. And then I told to Michael, we're going to stop this. We have electronic bikes and we have that classic horse whip. I'm saying, Michael, you open the gate. The only escape out of me chasing them with the whip will be the gate where they are. And for five minutes, I did chase them around the property, but nice way. It's not brutal. It's just with the electronic bike. And they were escaping. And they knew exactly what they had to do. And then they did find the escape out of pressure that was through the gate. And then nobody was disturbing them anymore. Now I have always the whip with me. They run to me. They don't run away from me. They run to me to the whip and then I open the gate and they fly in the boxes. Now you. So there is a moment where you must dare doing and you wait and you wait and then there is a moment you say okay now we going to change the attitude the attitude of the horse must change and the attitude was I did drive behind them and they are not afraid of the whip they are not afraid of the bicycle they are afraid of the consequence when they would not come and that makes sense you see what I mean and that is what people don't rap and they they will give and give and hey how how can I compete if they don't want to come they are grazing grass I have one horse autistic one when I call him he comes I tell you that oh it's impossible well I just implement basic dog training from one marker board to the other in five minutes I did do it five minutes it's imposs five minutes it is dog training it just a huge big dog that's Yeah. Yeah. >> And you must be very careful by not using a steam they cannot have because if 700 kilos go in panic you have a problem or when 700 kilo goes in aggression you have a problem. So you must be very patient and very firm and clear. That's it. So for me, training that horse is like I recognize myself like in the beginning that I did learn the low-level tool, the power of the low level. It's it's it's it's beautiful for me. And I'm not a horse rider. I know nothing about

horses. And I don't claim to know something about horses, but I just do what I do in dog training and it works. I call, they come, I send him to the trailer, he goes to the trailer. I send him to the markerboard, he goes to the markerboard. We do the same with with with dogs, you know, and people don't know that in our lives. Michael and I did train a lot of pets and I also did train pets in the beginning of my career and pets with problem. We never never train the problem. We just gave >> the dog we call basic rules, a structure. You come out of the crate, you go on the pedestal, I brush you, we do, you do. And by working on structure, the problem was gone away. >> Yes. >> By not working on the problem. You just work on other things and the problem stops. And that's another thing we like to tell people. >> Mhm. >> Well, you have a problem because you don't have a structure. Give structure and the problem will go. If your kid only gets attention if you put your house on fire. Well, that's the reason why they put your house on fire because that's the first time in 10 years that you did see your kid. Maybe you should see your kid when the kid does something well. They say, "Hey, good job. You must not sing 50 songs neither, but you must Hey, good job." That's it. And with Docs, it's the same thing. Eh, >> perfect. >> Same thing. >> So, Michael Bart Oh, sorry, Michael. Go ahead. >> No, no. I I was going to say it must be late there for you guys. >> Yes, I was going to just uh >> uh >> and uh yeah, Michael Bart, thank you for that. You followed our invitation for being a guest in our podcast. Uh I think we had really really good discussions. I think uh the listeners will have a lot of worth in the conversations. >> Yeah. And um yeah, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for the knowledge you taught me and also Andre and thank you for the nice conversation we had, for all the questions you answered and um yeah, is there anything you guys you guys want to say at least? >> Bart probably does. No, no. You know, it must be >> you must live it. There's >> it's only one way to be successful is you must live it. >> Could that be could that be a good suggestion for the title of this episode? IGP with heart and soul. >> Why not? >> Or do you have a different suggestion for the title? We give you the honor to give it the title. >> No, no, it's very good. It must be heart and soul. You can only be good at something if you do it with heart and soul. If you don't do it with heart and soul, you will be medium. >> So, so the title suggestion is just heart and soul. That's it. >> Yes. Yes. >> Mhm. >> Okay. I think that sounds I think that

sounds also like a like a t-shirt. E pay and cop but also in heart. Sounds like like a t-shirt for me. >> Oh, yeah. Good. Well, if you make one, you can send some this way. >> Yeah, of course. >> I have another question for you both. Um, our guest, uh, Albert started that. I think they gave us a question for our next guest. So, that's what Matias did with you. And do you have a question for our next guest? We should ask. Must we tell it or must we think over it and write? >> You can tell it and I will write it down and you can think about it for 10 seconds and then we have >> you you already thought of the question this morning >> and what was Michael? You know that I have Alzheimer. >> What did I answer? >> Oh, I I can't remember what you said, but I remember you had an answer. >> You had an answer. >> Really? >> Yeah. I I was going to say we we were a little bit talking about what are things that needs to be done to make the training training dogs community future proceed as we want. What what exactly needs to be done? >> Well, that's that's an interesting question. >> You see, I mean, and I'm not talking about breeding dogs. I'm not talking about pet dogs. I'm talking spec and I'm talking specifically about training. >> I need more than 10 seconds, folks. >> No, we we I think we we take that one. That's I think that's a good question, Michael. Perfect. All right, guys. Thank you. >> But can you rephrase the question? Wait, wait, wait, wait. What should be done? >> Yeah, but I mean, Michael, you did speak a few minutes, but how can they phrase it short in a question? I I wrote down what are the things that needs to be done that uh need the training community. Is that what you said >> that will benefit the future of the training community? Yeah. So we want to think about the future to keep >> to keep you I mean what are what needs to be done. I think that if we find out and we can say what needs to be done then >> because I think there's disagreement on that right now. >> Okay. I have it. Thank you very much. >> Yes. Well, be interesting. Okay. >> So, beware will be our next guest and we will ask that question to him or her or whatever. Okay. >> Okay. All right. Um, get some sleep you guys. >> Thank you, Michael. >> Thank you very much for your time. >> Okay. Hey, thank you for being your guest. Thank you. See you. Enjoy. Thank you. Bye. Great for Bye. [Music]