E247: 제이크 슈나이더(Jake Schneider) - "입질 스포츠를 위한 그립 발달"

Okay. So I know we talked about this a little bit before we got started. But do you consider yourself a positive trainer? I could say yes or I could say no. And I think there's going to be an asterisk next to it no matter what. And I'll kind of explain that. But so when I started, I started doing Mondia ring back in 2009. I did a little bit of Schutzen about a year or so before that. But when I got into the bite sport stuff, the idea of training, you were using pinch collars, you were using e-collars. It's kind of what the standard was. And there were exercises like in Mondia ring, like an object guard where a dog has to guard an object. You're out of the scene. You're out of sight completely. The dog has to guard the object. And that was how we were able to. That's like the thought was that's how you control the dog. That's how you get a dog to stay is to using e-collars and stuff because you're not there to physically tell the dog they're not doing something right. And so that was kind of the mentality starting out. And what ended up happening over time is I allowed my competitive nature to start to kick in. And I was talking to somebody. And this was after I finished my first Mondia three dog, Cato. We went to Europe with him and trialed all over at high levels. And I kind of reached what I considered like the peak of Mondia ring. I went to the biggest event in Mondia ring and we competed there. And so I was like, OK, well, my next dog, I want to do some different things. And my goal with him was to train him with no pinch collars, no e-collars, no nothing. And the main reason for that is because someone told me I couldn't. I mean, to be honest, that's how I got started in trying to do things more in a positive way is because someone said, well, it can't be done. And I started thinking, I'm like, I think it maybe can be. So I started playing around with different ideas. Thankfully, the club I was training with was open to me doing this as well and just trying new things with their dogs. And it just kind of stemmed into me going, you know what, I'm just going to try and do pretty much as much as I possibly can without using any form of of of correction. I punish wise. I mean, like I'll still punish a dog by withholding something or there's there's a consequence to obviously the dog doing not something great. But I really try to stay away from like physical correction stuff because I've over time I've started to figure out that it's not necessary to get results all the time. It's just something I started to get away from. But but yeah, so like I said, there's an asterisk there.

Like I didn't start that way. I'm definitely progressing into that way as fully and I embrace it because I think it's really an interesting, fun sort of thing to do with the dog. And if someone says I can't do it a certain way, I have to at least try. Fair enough. Yeah. So if I was to ask you to kind of describe your current training philosophy, then what would you say? So I think kind of to go back into like what I was saying before, my I would say my philosophy is heavily based in like the relationship you have with your dog and you have to be able to communicate. You have to have a bond with your dog. And especially if you're going to do it in, you know, if you're not going to use certain corrective devices like you have to have a relationship where your dog wants to be with you. If your dog doesn't want to work with you and this doesn't matter if you're a decoy or if you're the handler, if the dog doesn't want to be with you, that's a problem. It's absolutely a problem. And so I my training philosophy is heavily based in relationship stuff, making sure that the dog I mean, I obviously want the person to enjoy their dog, but I don't want to say more importantly, but like the dog has to like their people. If the dog doesn't like their people, it's going to be a struggle. So you mentioned earlier, you do Monday Ring, your handler and decoy, right? So I was thinking and judge, there you go. They skipped that one. So I'd imagine that doing those three roles, there are obviously similarities there, but there are some pretty dramatic differences. And when I was thinking about questions, I was like, I really am curious how, you know, one role and taking on different roles has really influenced your perspective when you're performing the other roles. So, so yeah, so how, how has that all worked out for you? So it's, it's actually been really interesting. So like as a judge, as far as I know, and someone could correct me if I'm wrong, at least at this point, there are some new judges coming up that are going to be similar to my experience. I think I'm the only one who has been a decoy for a long time. So I've decoyed over 30 trials. Um, I've been a judge now for three years and I've been a handler through two different dogs up to level three. And so I think I'm the only, or one of the only judge, uh, judges that have been through all three realms of the sport. Um, and it definitely does give you a different perspective. I think handlers sometimes maybe don't appreciate the perspective I have because I'm able to set things up that are weird.

Or I'm able to, to coach decoys in the trial and be able to help them like, Hey, you know, if you try this or do this, this might get more points. Um, but at the same time, like, I think the biggest thing for me is going from a decoy to a handler. So when I started in Mondia ring, I didn't have a dog. I had a, well, I had a dog. It was a Basset hound. That was my, that was my dog. And, and so they started introducing like the obedience only. And it crossed my mind to be like, I should totally do this with my dog. But no, no. Copper was not a Mondia ring dog at all. Very trainable, not athletic. Um, but so I actually started off in Mondia ring as a decoy. And then I got my first dog. And when I got my first dog, he was a Malinois. Being a decoy first showed me how, how the dog, like dogs love decoys. Your dog, when you're doing bite sports, your dog loves the helper, loves the decoy. Like they love the game. And so what it allowed me to do is actually when I was playing with my dog, whether it's in sport or just at home playing with my dog, I was able to do it in a way that was very decoyous where like, I don't know if that's the right word, but like where I could do movements and twitches and noises and all these things that like the decoys would normally do with the dog. And it made our relationship even bigger, you know, and it, it, it helped out a ton just because it, it just, the dog's like, wait, you do this stuff. You move like this. Oh my God. My, my best friend or my favorite toy in the world moves the same way. And so me being able to, to move and stuff at home, like the decoys move, the dog was just like, oh my God, I love you. You're awesome. You're the best play thing ever. So I think as much as, as much as being a, being a judge now, the handling and decoy has helped. I actually think going from a decoy to a handler helped me even more when it came to just being successful in, in monitoring. So kind of having those skills going in with your first dog. Oh yeah, for sure. Like I think I was a decoy for almost two years before, um, before I, I decided to get a dog. That's a long time. It's probably a pretty, I would guess it's a pretty unusual, uh, progression, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Most people get into the sport cause they're like, Hey, I got this dog who I think could do it. And I just was like, I'm at, I I'm into sports and stuff. And I'm like, wait, a dog running down and biting me. I actually was thinking about doing shoots. And then I'm like, well, I could do a sleeve or a whole suit. And to me, I was like, oh, a whole suit. Like that just sounds awesome.

So, um, yeah, so it was just like the sporty side of me just saying like, I want to do this. And then, you know, at the time we had a, like I said, we had a Bassett and like going from a Bassett to a Malinois was an intimidating thought. And then started to get to know Malinois, I was loving them. And then that was just like the best decision I think we ever made. What about the step up to the judge? Was that, was there anything that kind of surprised you or, um, you know, that's influenced things there? I mean, it definitely affects how I set things up. Like, I feel like as a judge, I can, I can look at a field now and be like, as a handler, I want to just, when I step onto a field, I'm hoping that the trial flows. Like if it's really like clunky and you have to go like from one side of the field and walk to the other side of the field for the exercise and everything. But I think a lot of judges, even if they, a lot of judges, well, all judges have been handlers. Um, I think we all want it to flow, um, as a decoy, it's almost the same way. I want it to flow in a sense where the decoys don't have to run on and off the field crazy. So I think it gave me that type of perspective, but it also, I think, like I said, it allowed me to communicate to decoys on what I wanted them to do. And I think coming from a place of being one of them, I think it was easier to explain to them kind of what I was thinking or show them if I needed to. So in the not too distant future, um, you have a two-part webinar series for us coming up, um, specifically on grip development. And I think you really kind of keyed into something important in your description, uh, that you mentioned, which is not everybody has access, regular access to a decoy or a helper. And I know you mentioned earlier, kind of how much of a difference it made for you kind of having those decoy skills when you got your, uh, first dog. So I wanted to ask, you know, how much is it really possible to do at home on your own? Well, when it comes to just Mondia ring in general, there's a ton, like even beyond what this webinar is going to cover. Like, I think there's so much you can do. There's obviously the obedient side of it, but there's exercises within even bite work that you can, you can be practicing at home, like defensive handler, contacts, object guard. There's all these different things you can do. And like for grip development stuff, I think that the ideas is people, people think, well, I need a decoy to do that. And, or I need all this equipment and you'll see in the webinar, like I'm using, if I need to, I'll use dog toys for engagement.

I'll use, you know, the only thing that's like a special buy, if you absolutely knew to needed to, it'd be like a harness, but you probably have one anyways, or, or like a bungee and, and something like that to add some, some flex to when you're doing certain exercises, but there's a lot you can do at home. And I consider like the webinars almost, I consider it like a supplement to decoy work. It doesn't replace it. Um, obviously in order to compete in whether it's Mondia ring, French ring, Schutzen, PSA, whatever, you obviously have to work with decoys to some degree. But I think there's a lot that you can do, you know, with the grip development, with these things at home that just really will help build. And, and as, as someone who's run seminars before seeing someone go home and work on something and then come back to you. And even if they hadn't worked with another decoy in between seeing the progression is awesome. And I think that's, that's what I think is super important is them to understand. Like I learned it firsthand. So obviously I'm a decoy, but we lost one of our decoys. He, he ended up, um, dropping out of the sport. And so I was left without a decoy when my current dog now Luda was maybe a year. So still within kind of that, like, we're really trying to figure out exercises and building and stuff like that. And, and, uh, it took me going, okay, well, I have to train these things on my own now. And, you know, outside of a suit in a suit, whatever I had to do, but I had to figure out how am I going to do this at home? How am I going to do this with, I'm supposed to be handler and decoy at the same time. And it just, it just made me kind of think outside the box. And I think that's what this webinar is about is, is trying to teach people like, don't, don't just think, okay, the decoy teaches the good grips. There's so much stuff you can do at home through, through interactions with your dog that'll help develop grips and, and relationship and everything. Mm-hmm. So as somebody who, uh, doesn't do Mondia, doesn't have a buddy dog, um, you know, how much of a dog's grip is really kind of instinctive or influenced just by kind of how they're built and, you know, how much is really tied to something more like their confidence level versus what, what pieces are like really trainable behaviors that we can kind of influence? I mean, I think there's, if you're, if you're looking like, obviously genetics do play a role when it comes to, um, like having certain styles of grip. Um, but yeah, I think there is, if you have a dog who's not very confident, you can build them into a Mondia dog.

I mean, the lady who introduced me into Mondia ring, she had one dog that, that borderline periodically scared the heck out of me when I was training him. Cause he was so confident and so powerful. I trusted him. Like he wasn't going to like, like be mean to me, but he was powerful and confident. And then she had another dog, um, at the same time who was like the polar opposite. He wasn't as confident. He was, he had a little, he was a little more, he was quite a bit more sensitive. And so our training just had to switch around and play around. So it really, it came down to the training. Now, obviously, like I said, genetics play a role in everything, but it's more of, there's never that cookie cutter way of, of, uh, of training a dog. Like we have to adjust and she won nationals with both of those dogs. And she took both of those dogs to Europe and competed internationally with them and podium with one and, and did pretty good with the other. And it's just about the mindset of yes, maybe genetically my dog doesn't good, but there's things I can train. I can a hundred percent train a lot of stuff to at least build something that's there. Will it be as good as a dog who's genetically super confident and environmentally just doesn't care? Maybe not, but it doesn't mean we can't compete high level. So how do we actually influence that grip? And maybe, you know, again, as somebody who doesn't do it, what makes for a really good grip? What is it we're looking for? And then how do we actually encourage those things in training? The influence of the dog's grip, I think is more of a mindset for the dog. So as, as people, when I'm playing with my dog or interacting with my dog, I'm looking at what the mindset is. And it's the same thing with monitoring. So, or any bite sports, the mindset I want in the dog is that I'm playing a game with me or the decoy or the person, not that I'm trying to take this thing away from them. So like when you're playing some dogs, when you're playing the dog goes, I want to win. And then when they win, they run away with the thing. And, you know, in the webinar, we talk about the pushing and grips and that's important too. And that'll create this, but like the mindset of the dog should be, I'm playing a game. And when I win, all that means is the game stops. I need to come back, re-engage and start this game up again. And I think that as people, we need to train that mindset and we can do that through, through playing with our dogs, just daily interactions where we teach them like, look, it's not about taking it.

It's about interacting and you, you bite on it and you push it. That's part of the game. Um, and that's kind of how we, we, we encourage it is we're like, when you win, bring it back. When you win, bring it back. When I win, I re-engage you. It's never like I win. And then I trot around and show it off and tell you to come try to get it back for me and play keep away. It's now when the game's over, that's too bad. Like you see it in a lot of different sport or a lot of different things, even, even like search and rescue and stuff. A lot of times dogs look disappointed when they find the person because it means the game's over. They're like, no, no, no, no. Let's go look for somebody else. Like they want to keep going. And that's what I want the dog to do when they win. I want them to be like, dang it. Okay, let's play again and like come back into you. And if you, if you, if you, uh, watch the webinar, you'll see that with my dog. He is all about constantly bringing it back to me almost to an obnoxious point, almost to a point where I'm trying to video certain things. And I'm like, dude, you're not doing what I need you to do. Like regress to being a puppy for a second. Cause he's like, no, we interact. I push this. And, and I think that's the biggest thing is the mindset of the dog needs to be one of like this interaction, as opposed to this competition of me trying to take something from you. Mm-hmm. It makes sense. Is there, you know, kind of anything else you want to share about the webinars themselves, you know, information on, um, either kind of what you're going to cover or, um, who should consider taking them or, or even any just like prerequisites that they need before they can kind of work through the information that you're, you're talking through. Sure. I mean, when it comes to a prerequisite, I think you either need to have a dog or at least have the thought of getting a dog. So that's pretty much it. Cause in my opinion, even though, even though like, we're going to be talking a lot about like white sports stuff, Mondia ring, IPO, French ring, whatever. Um, we're going to talk a lot about that. But in the end, like, even if someone who doesn't do sport work sees this, they're going to see ways to really learn how to engage your dog through like this tugging playing type stuff. So like, even if I had a dog who couldn't do Mondia ring, I'd still be doing this type of stuff again, because it's a mindset that I want my dog to have. And so, um, you know, to me, that's, that's the biggest thing is it's not necessarily for any specific dog.

If you're looking to get into sport, if you're looking to increase, increase your grips and things like that, yeah. Or your dog's grips. Um, you definitely, yeah, people don't need a bite. It's fine. Um, but, but you definitely, you definitely could watch it and take something away from it. I think for sure. So it's not just for sport dogs. I think it's for anybody really just interested in, in a new way or a different way of interacting with their dog. Gotcha. Okay. Well, to kind of round things out, um, if we were to kind of drill down all this stuff that we've been talking about today, uh, into one key kind of takeaway or piece of information you really want listeners to walk away from this with, um, what would that be? Um, I think, and whether it comes across as me saying anything like that or not, I honestly think a big takeaway from even like talking about the webinar and stuff like that is, is that there's a lot of stuff you can do on your own and you cannot be afraid to make mistakes that to me, one of the biggest things I find with people not wanting to do this work outside of working with a decoy is they're afraid to screw their dogs up. And it, it takes a lot, in my opinion, it takes a lot to screw a dog up. And if you're making mistakes, as long as you're trying to progress towards a certain goal, it takes a lot to really screw a dog up. I mean, obviously if you're like, you know, harming the dog, that's not good. But like if your dog bites a weird angle or, or doesn't get the deep grip or whatever, like who cares? Like you made a mistake or your dog made a mistake. You just keep going and people just need to be okay with that. And I, I kind of talk about that in the webinar, like make mistakes. It's okay. You'll see in the webinar. I promise. I actually say, well, I probably should have targeted him a little bit lower. Like not, it's not like I go through every session and be like, well, that was perfect. Cause it never is. Bite sports can be messy, just messy. Like in Mondia ring, if anyone's ever seen Mondia ring, you know, there's just a lot of stuff on a field and it can be literally anything, any theme. And it can be weird. So like I trained with a club last night and we were coming up with like weird scenarios. So you just have to be okay with making mistakes. Don't get worried. If something goes South, just, just have fun and train your dog. Like that's, that's what I want people to take away is just do this stuff. Your dog will love it. Just do it. Okay. I can't help it. Um, so what kind of weird things were you coming up with last night? Can you share an example? Yeah.

So, so last night, um, we have a dog who just newly became a level three, uh, just, I think this past weekend or the weekend before, and it's a German shepherd. And there's just not a lot of level three. I think there's three of them in the country and he was the highest scoring one ever. So we were pretty proud of, proud of that whole thing. Um, but you know, we, we would put the dog on up on the stairs or we're climbing up on these, the, what are they? The little giants, those big ladders. We climbed to the top of those and we were having the dog, the handlers do stuff underneath it. Um, you know, for food refusal stuff, like I would lay down on the ground and be like eating the food next to the dog. Like we do so many weird things in Mondia ring. It's, it's, I feel like if you don't try to do really weird things, you're going to miss something, you know? And, and so that's, I, Oh, we did, we were working inside, but we did water. We were spraying a garden hose onto a board that I was standing behind screaming. Don't spray me with water as the dog is laying down five feet from me doing a stay. And so it was, like I said, we just, I don't know, like for Halloween, we like to put masks on and, and just, I don't know. It's so many weird, like I've been doing this for like 13 years. There's so many weird situations, like driving golf carts around and doing all this different stuff. And it's just like, Oh, it's a blast, but jeepers. It's just, you never, you never stop thinking of new, interesting things to do to test your dogs. That is for sure. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jake. This has been awesome. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. I really appreciate it. It's, it's been, I said, it's been really fun to just kind of, uh, talk and I love talking about dogs and Mondia ring, especially, and just bite sports stuff in general. Like it's, this is, this is my jam. I definitely enjoy this a lot. Awesome. Well, thank you. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Be tune in.