에피소드 29: Edgar Scherkl

the dogs like that that's a side that i don't know and i don't think many it's a funny story you know you know let's see i'm ready i'm ready sorry no um for sure it was a little bit like this i every time want to have a dog but my parents say uh you know when you became a teenager you don't take care about the dog and and my parents are coming from from a little bit they they fly with gliders a father so um i was all the time on on on on the little airport for for the gliders uh until i was 15 years 15 16 years then i get a dog i also was flying but in the moment i get a dog it stopped immediately and then it was really funny because i was thinking okay my dad has a little bit panic of dogs so um i met a guy we were working for him and he said okay i go with you to a breeder and there was um some puppies i think they were were so eight eight weeks old and really super and everybody was playing and beside was a 12 week old female she sit in the hole and don't come up and say oh this is nice this i want to have and so i stopped dog sport what breed was that it was in oh my god no breed breed like uh it was a german shepherd yeah yeah a german shepherd it was a german shepherd female and um i i do with her my my first igp3 was 196 and 13 points in protection i tried to do it a second time but it don't work and so i make more or less 60 times fh with the dogs yeah so and then and then it goes on and then it became uh then i became uh uh after this i have a a doberman a rottweiler and then i come to the malinois so so but you pretty much right away got the feel of the the dog sport world i have in this time we have a really i think we had had a good trainer he was coming from from boxing and um the important thing what he uh teach was uh to be to be honest and to be loyal so and it was so amazing that he exactly know when i can put the leash off in the free healing for me it was amazing this time so that my dog don't go away and follow me it was nice yes oh that's funny and then how did um so you you went through a few different breeds and and and what what how did you stop the damalina what how did that happen um i was i do helper work in two german championships in in this time it was not this vdh for all breeds because it was in the sport club it was uh in this time was dhv and um so i was two times helper and then i met folka riedel in this time and um he was also competing with his dog and and in this moment we got in contact and and then the story starts yeah now then i became very annoyed go into the club became directly was

helper and for for brie uh it was a master for not master for breeding but i start this to to um select dogs so the dmc already was formed right yeah yeah it was uh the the first the first uh our first uh chairman was peter engel and he was a long time um he was leading the club um but yeah now i'm in the same situation it if you do it for a long time then you need to stop sometimes it's like it is you don't can do it until until the end because it's um time is changing yeah times are changing for sure always and and and and also the passion starts to yeah the motivation was higher in the beginning the motivation yes of course i mean between him and and volkill i mean that that's pretty much how as far as i know how malinois just came into germany in in you know everybody was like i i want to have one of them and i i think it wasn't even as easy to to get a good malinois at the time but people started to really pay attention right it was in this time was a was a lot of uh belgium and and holland blood uh uh herald's uh herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald's herald Belgium, the Departoir. And when I was at Hansenburger, he said, okay, look, we go to a farm, then you open three doors, and from three doors coming, three crowds of puppies, they come together and say, oh, this is how the Marinoise was. And then he said, okay, this needs to be here, this needs to be there, this is going there. So in this time it was like this, but the dogs were not bad. Yes, I remember these times. That's how I got into it with Luke Van de Brusch. It was, yeah, when I go back in time, the same thing. I think now it became a little bit too tight. It's a little bit too much administration. There are too much rules in all the things. And I also make the mistakes and go too much into this side. I mean, it's a natural, as long as we keep trying, and keep thinking, being aware and going, you know, finding the mistakes and finding ways to get back to the roots if we need to or move away, right? But we always got to try.

Man, I am like, there's just questions in my head right now. And I don't know, I don't even know where to start, you know? So I know I'm going to bounce all over the place and that's okay. How did the, how did the, what was the reason for the Kjorung for the DMC? Like that's something that we always hear, but like when, how did it, what, what, what made the reason for it? The idea was selection for, for a dog who can do a little bit more than, than we expect in the sport. And that, that we say, okay, something is extra that we can use for breeding. This was, I think the idea. So this was the main idea, but then it goes more and more to, yeah, to a little show more or less. It was, it was good. It was like, okay. It was like an old role. The people need this game. Yeah, they need the gladiator and they need that to see, okay. And it wasn't a beginning like this when a dog past this, this, this Kjorung, it was like something extra. The, those are, they were really proud about it because we have a normal breeding test and then we have this Kjorung. So more or less it was like hardcore, yeah, fighting in a cage, something like that. Something like that. Right. And in the beginning, because I, of course, pay attention to, and it seems like you, in the beginning, like you had more freedom to see, oh, I can explore a little something here with that dog. You had that freedom to where later on it became very more strict where you had to do the same thing. And even if it became a little harder to say of that dog is really good. Or am I wrong? No, you're right. It became more and more. It became a system. And when you go a system, then it's able to train in the system. The thing was a little bit that it was not anymore able to work in the suit in Germany. Right. For a period of time. And for me, every time was really important to have this communication with the dog, to do the fight with the dog. But when the dog was good, also to show that the dog was good. You understand what I mean? Yes. So you go into the fight and you show that in the beginning, when he can do it, that he became the winner, that he is a winner. And then we get another generation of helpers who are doing this. And they were more technical. They make it not so much with the brain thing. They make it more with the body. Right. Not enough feeling in there. No. No. It became more like a technical thing, but not the thing that you go into the dog, into the brain of the dog. This was a little bit. Maybe not a lot of people can do it, but to see and make this communication with the eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just the mental pressure put and take away.

Right. Yes. And for mental pressure, sometimes it's more static and sometimes it's a little bit more to go more on the frustration side, a little bit like that. That's right. And that's where every dog can respond on either more direct or more. But when the people are watching and they're like, well, you're doing this to that dog, but you're doing different to that dog and that becomes the problem. Right. And then you have to kind of start to make it more of a unified, like a standard. That's what we can do. And now everybody can prepare a little bit. This was not the idea. The idea was, okay, you can prepare for the small test, but for the Köring, in the end, it was like, this is freestyle. Yeah. You know, when I, and I watched, like, I don't even know how those were the VHS type times, but I would watch them and they used to be way back, like, you know, the one test with the guy sitting with the newspaper. And, but then you start to see the dogs, they know what's coming. So they're like, you know, it's, the surprise is not there anymore. And now, now you, it becomes, so how did you guys start to, like, how, how, I guess, in the breed, how did the breed, do you think, evolved in Germany because of the Köring? After all these years, I think it's not so important. Mm-hmm. I think it's not so important. Which is strange how nature has its way. Maybe I'm a little bit frustrated. Maybe I can explain it a little bit. Because the, if you became more and more, if you put it more and more in a box and give no space around, in this moment, then you have, then you create a little system. And this became more, then, then you have more stress also with the people because something every time goes a little bit wrong. And, and then the people say, oh, this was a little bit different from here. And that was a little bit different from there. But what they want in the end, they want to, to have a, to have a good, good test for, good results for the dog. It's not interesting what the dog really is. They only want to have a good result for the dog. And this is a little bit of a problem. So we go a little bit away from the honest way. We became a little bit more like, and then, and you see this during the years and you say, okay, it's not anymore so important. Mm-hmm. Interesting. It's not anymore so important. On the other side, our society is crazy. Our, in Germany became crazy. Completely crazy because of the animal rules and everything. And it's a little bit more. So, so maybe one example.

If, if, if somebody really make, make, make pressure to, to, to kids or, or to a woman, it's, it's, then that it's not so, so they don't punish you so hard if you do it to a dog. You understand what I mean? And this is completely strange. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway. It's, it's big say that then I, I, we should say this, uh, like you've been, I mean, you've been, I don't know how, how, for how long you've been a judge. Oh, I don't know. It's been a long time, but you judge. I think, I think it's nine, nine, I think more or less 1999 or 1998, something like that. Yeah. And, and you've judged pretty much any big championship in Germany many times. You've judged at least two, three times FMBB. You've been supervisor. Um, you, you were at the FCI commission. Are you still at the FMBB? Yes. You are, right? So when you talk about judging and evolution and times changing, like you, I'm just giving that background. To, to the people that listen, because it's important that it comes out from experience, from a long time experience. And, and it's important to be noted. Um, but yeah, the sport, if it's a sport or whatever we want to call it, it is changing. It is changing. And, and how much, like how much influence somebody has to where the sport is going, how it's changing? Like, how do we make decision where to go forward? This is a good question. This is a good question. I think we have one huge problem. We had too much individuals that, uh, a little bit too stubborn to build a community. Hmm. So it's the, it's when you go to a competition, like how it works in a competition, the most of the time, the most, most of the time, the people are, ah, maybe look what he has and what they have and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In the end. And, but it's not that they, that we have, that we say, okay, this is a line here we can follow and this, this we can do. I think this is for, for the problem have, have a lot of source. The main problem is that the people who are leading, leading in the, in the sport, um, who makes the politics. You mean like in the, yeah, the FCI commission. They are far away, really far away from, from the practice. And most of the time they have a career on this political way. They, they don't have spent so much time in the mud of tracking, in obedience and the frustration and in the protection and, and all the things what this is so much, what you need to do. And, and, and in this moment, if you don't, if you don't have this, if you don't need to work hard for that, then you, then you have less respect for that, what the dog handlers are doing. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

This is an interesting conversation. And I know sometimes people don't like me when I talk about this, but whenever I talk with competitors and, and quite often we feel like we, we don't get, like our sport doesn't get defended and protected. We always bend down to whatever the next demand of some organization is. And, and it just seems like if we keep going like this, it will never end. And in some years from now, maybe we are all doing agility. Who knows? Who knows? Who knows? If you make a mistake or if somebody makes I make a lot of mistakes. And I really have it. I need to pay for it. But. When the people use it. They use it for. Personal things. And they don't think what is coming. After that. If you put videos. Et cetera. And. You know what I mean? Of course. This is. So the only thing what I need to say, where I was a little bit expressed, also expressed, was when the things happened with the video from Ukraine, then a lot of people, okay, okay. And a lot of people want to punish me in FCI, of course. And then we have also the discussion in FMVP. And I was really impressed when Johan said, a high tree catch a lot of wind. So this is the end of the story. This is the end of the story. And they look from another point, from another point of view. And I'm really happy that we have in this FMVP, these commissions, and the commissions are responsible for the judges. And the commissions are only, every member is from another country. And we have people inside who are really trained dogs and really have knowledge meant about dogs. And on the other side, also, it's an open discussion. We can fight against each other, but not in a personal way. Right, right, right. No, arguments are important to be had, you know. So FMVP, for me, is, in this time, a little bit more my place. Which is really good. But we still, when I mean we, FMVP, still has to follow FCI regulations and rules and everything. And I guess my question now is the hot topic of the year. How many times have you won? Three or four? World championships? Four. Four. Four-time world championships. Normally five, but this was only a World Cup. You know, when the first time, I win the first competition, but then lots of time. Yeah, Kaiman. I love that. I love that. That was a... That was a... Well, I get goosebumps just thinking of it. When I say aus and I hear nothing, I need to put my glasses off and say, eh, what is going on? But it happened. Come on. Of course. Of course. That's, you know, it's a rollercoaster. But so, just for everybody that listens, four times world championships with three different dogs.

Two. Two. Did Arco didn't... Well, Arco won... No, no, no. With Arco, I only win three times the champion. Okay. Okay. Because you, I mean, you had a very good run with him. I somehow thought that you also won... Well, not world championship, but European, but I guess not. And... Yeah. Look, in the European, in the European championship, I was place number three. And Schuyler was winning because he makes super points on the field. That was funny to have a 98 in obedience with this kind of dog. And 97... Protection was okay. 97 in protection. But he missed one article. So... And I have 92 in tracking. So, this was... Yeah. This time I can win. But it was a bit... The good thing was we start with the European championship. Right. We start with the Monday North with the European championship. Yeah. And this was... I think this was a little bit of the beginning. And also Volker pushed this a little bit. And this time we have good connections also. Also in our breeding test, we have a ring helper from France. He also was... He also was... At Montini, he also was in the final in... In the border of Belgium and France. I don't know exactly. Which one... Out of the... Out of all of your dogs... This is a stupid question kind of. Because I get asked this too. And I never have a good answer. But do you... Would you have a... Like a favorite dog of... The ones you competed... I know they're all different. I know everything. But like... Yes. Look. Look. I think Akku was a little bit... I get him and he was educated. With Akku. He... He was educated. And then I get Desert. And Desert was a dog who... You know, it was a little bit old school training. And he can take a lot of pressure. This dog was... In this case, he was really rough. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And... And... And Cayman was... Yeah. Cayman was Cayman. It was... You know, when I... It was a little bit funny. How to get this dog. Uh... When... I think it was... It was... Seven weeks? Seven? Six or seven weeks old? And then Marcus was... Marcus North was calling me and saying... Ah, maybe here's a dog for you. I say... Come on. I think there are only two... Two and... And a female. And I think they... They are sold. Mm-hmm. Yeah, maybe we can talk. And then I talked... I talked with him. It was Kostas. And he has the name of... Of Kim Heckler's breeding this time. It was his first breeding. And... Um... Yeah. And then he said... Yes, of course you can get a dog. And you have a first pick. So I go down with... With my wife. And... And when I come in... I see the dog. It was... It was like... One second. I say... This is my dog. It was no test. Nothing. It was like... And... The feeling was good. Yeah. I think this was my favorite dog.

Yes, of course. And in this time... It was nice because we have... A good... Before also... A good community of training. A good... Good people around. Who helps. This was nice time. It was Bjorn. It was Marcus. It was Seppi. It was this group. Yeah, that was... It was Ralf Konzelmann. One of the best helpers we had. That was a special time. And that's kind of where I... Really got to know you... And Marcus. And Seppi. And everybody. Like... Like on a... On a different level. Besides the competition. You know? Yeah. This was nice. Nice time. But that's how it goes. We... You know? We stay so long in the game. That it's normal. Sometimes. Things to keep changing. And hopefully they keep changing for better. And... You know? Like... I mean... You and me. We've been... For so many years. We've been everywhere. To not talking. To talking. To whatever. But time goes by. And we get an appreciation of what we do. You know? Like... That's important. I think now it's time to stop the mistakes. We learn enough. And now it needs to be a little bit... To have... To have a little bit... To have fun. And... And... To be open and honest. I think this is more important. And if... If something... Don't... We don't like... We can say to each other. I think it's easy. And then it's done. It's not a personal thing. But then it's done. Is that a sign that we're getting older? Yeah. Yeah. I say also... Now when we... When we became a little bit more wise... It's... The game is over. Right. Right. Now... Tell... Tell me... And again... Like from... From being a world championship numerous times... From... Being a helper at world championships... And... And bunch of different competitions... From being a judge at world championships... And all over the world... Including here. Like you... Now how was it? I can't remember now. You were the helper... On the... Our first AWMA championship that we did. And... And Debbie was a judge. Exactly. Yes. That was history to be made. What is your take on the stick hit... When we took it out? What do you think... Is it... Possible... To... Evaluate a dog now? Like... What do you think a helper can do? Like what kind of instruction... You would give... To the helpers for next year? Or... Where is this? Like I want to hear you talk about this... Because it's always very... It's a very hot topic. I know... I know the stick hit... When we have this bamboo. This was not very nice. This was not very nice. It used to leave like blisters on the dog. Yes, of course. This was not very nice. Then when we have the other stick... It was... I think it was a little bit more... This... The stick only works when you have the possibility also for the mental pressure. The impression. Otherwise...

Otherwise it's only boom boom. And when you look now... It came to time... When the... The help-up work... Became more... A sporty way. It was important... Every time... To start on point A... To run to point B. And it need to be for... Everything need to be the same. And if the dog... And also the... The form... Where the helper have... The angle... Where the helper have the sleeve... It was not able... It... When the angle was a little bit more like... The sleeve more down... Then the dog has not more the power to stop the helper... Or something like that. And so... It can happen that you can put the dog from A to B. But... On the other side... We don't have the... The real mental pressure to the dog in this case. This is a part of more... Sometimes putting the dog on the feet... Sometimes to go a little bit over... And have this kind of communication. A little more freedom... For the helper to read... And decide a little bit... It's a little more freedom... Right? Yeah... Yeah... But look... Now it's a little bit like this... It's a competitor... Stay on the outside... Say... Ah... Look... He go... 20 centimeters more than with my dog... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... And... Normally it's like this... If the dog want to... If the dog want to escape to the left side... You go to the left side... If the dog want to escape to the right side... You go to the right side... Yes... But... In this form... What we have now... What it became created... It's not anymore possible... Yeah... And when things go in some form... It's difficult to... Put it out... Out of this form... Yeah... And... Sometimes you see also... That the helpers are looking... Where they need to run... It's funny... They don't in communication... They're not in conversation with the dog... They're in conversation with their points... Right... It's like it is... Yeah... I also think... You only can make a really good helper job... When you are able to train dogs... To a level... I think then... You have a little bit... A knowledgement... What to do... On the other side... You only need to have a sporty body... To do it... Yeah... That's a very good point... Yeah... And... Yeah... Look... How you want to... To get this... This instinct... What you need... In this moment... When you go... Really... In... In a fight with a dog... This is... Maybe... Maybe you have it... It can be that you have it inside a little bit... Or... Maybe you can teach it a little bit... But... You need to have something... Where you can go in the opposite of something... Right... You understand what I mean? Yeah... When you are able to... When you have the power to go... To go against something... Yeah... Yeah... I mean... Very good example...

It's not good for politics... True... It's not good for politics... The... The... The example you gave... With... You know... Like... I don't know... I had a... Harry Archon... On a podcast... A few podcasts ago... And we were talking a little bit... And... I... I... I... Had this idea... That... Even... The helper even should have the freedom... Not to go so fast... From point A to point B... Because it's... It's over... And you just kind of... You know... The dog can just grab and hold on... And it's... But if you slow it down... With some dogs... You can really expose... And show something more... Or if the dog... How... Some dogs are... Pulling you... Trying to stop you... But maybe they're not trying to stop you... You should... As a helper... Be able to have the freedom... To say... You know what... I'm coming... At you... You cannot... Avoid me... Right? And these are the kind of freedoms... That you're... Mentioning right now... Probably goes back... The same... The same... Difficulty with the Khorong... How... You know... You had to become more and more... Uniform... To where you don't have... So much freedom... Yeah... And then the evaluation... Goes down... Maybe... Let us jump... One point back to Khorong... What do we see on Khorong? On Khorong... We see only a few elements... In a short time... When we have sport... In our sport... When we have in our sport... For... Not for the... Starters... Not for the club competitions... Yeah... But for the high-end competitions... When we have in the high-end competitions... When we have... Real tracking fields... When we look to obedience... What is a little bit more... Like... I don't say natural... But a little bit more like... Okay... There is a communication... There is... The main parts of the exercise... The dog understands... Maybe one example in a port... What do you see in a port? Okay... Speed... Speed... Speed... Speed... Speed... Speed... Is... That the dog presents... And wants to give something away... This is the main point... So... Speed is something... It's nice... It's good for the public... But this is not the idea of the port... And in protection... It's a little bit the same... So... When we now follow a dog... For a long time... We see him in A... B... C... And then we see his quality... For... That what we expect... Like a dog... Who can go to competition... Sport dog... Or whatever... Right... I talk also with the people... Who are... Using dogs for... For... Yeah... For police... Or for something else... For... Really used dogs... For finding... Explosive drugs... Etc... Etc... Etc... And they say... We have a little bit of problem... Also with the dogs... That they... That they are really... Have a... Able to smell...

And we see it in some breeds... That we have... That the dogs have problems... In this way... And so... We... I think we need to think about... All this... What we are doing... And... And... What the people are doing... They go to a dog... Who is well champion... In this case... It's also alright... When they do it... It's also alright... When they do it... When this dog... Can... Became a world champion... On the other side... It's more important... What are doing the puppies... From this dog... And this is a little bit... What we don't have... Yeah... How is... But for this... We can talk until tomorrow... Right... How is different... Like... The... The... The... FMBB has its own... Preparation... And vision for... The judges... The judges... Right... To some extent... I mean... You still follow FCI rules... But... But you do have your... FMBB judges meetings... And stuff like that... Correct or no? Yes... We have a commission... With... Five member... Six... Six... Six... Seven members now... I don't know exactly... Mm-hmm... And... And in this commission... We talk about the judges... And we want to have... We want to have a list... A list from judges... We can use... And... The idea is a little bit like... Not only... The dog handlers... Need... To... Select himself... To go to the competition... Also the judge... Need to do the same... And when we... When we see sometimes... That the judge is going... In a... In a... I say it now... Polite... In a political way... Then we don't want to use him anymore... Mm-hmm... Mm-hmm... Yeah... Because... Like... If you put some percentage... How many judges... Including FCI... And... WSV... Everywhere... Like... How many... Percentage... Of the judges... You think... Actually... Are very... Good for the sport... That... That... Because of them... The sport can maintain... Or improve... Do you think... How many do you think? Um... I think we have... We have a few good judges... And from this... Few good judges... We have... Also... Some percent... Who are... Not political... Mm-hmm... Which is very hard... Nowadays... Yeah... It's... I think it's very hard... I think it's very hard... And... The problem is... In this case... When you know... The system... When you know that... This is normal... When you then go to... A championship... And you really judge... Look to the dogs... And say... Okay... This I like... Or... This is more or less... What we expect from a dog... And then sometimes... You get a little bit... Problems with the audience... Because... You know... With humans... It's every time the same... They adapt it sometimes... And then they think it's normal... Yeah... They think it's normal... And then... If you are... And on the other side...

And a judge make a mistake... Every judge makes mistakes... It's... This is... This is normal... When you have 100 dogs... When you have only 5%... Yes... Then you're really good... Really good... This is why I... I am a... A judge... And I... I just don't do it... Because I don't think I'm... My brain works this way... Like I... I don't think I can stay... Focused for so many dogs... At the same time... I think I'm gonna... My brain's gonna go off into... Some text message... Or something... You know... Like... It takes a special... Ability to... Just the... To stay focused... All the time... It's not easy... I have a question... When you train a dog... You are... You are nervous... Or you do it by your feeling... Yeah... Good question... I just talked about this... That's so funny... So... I tell you... I do it... I think I do it... Totally... Like... Probably 99%... By feeling... Okay... And... And I almost don't... You are stressed in this way? You became stressed in this way? No... No... So... The same way you need to do it as a judge... You go on the field... And you are not... You don't need to have... Oh... Today... This is what I want to see... No... You go... And there are different dogs... Different pictures... Different education... And this is possible... That it is like that... And then you go and say... Okay... No... And... And... And when you became... This was also my mistake in the beginning... You go too much in detail... Yeah... Too tense... And you don't want to miss anything... And... Yes... And... Forget it... What can happen? Nothing... So... But it takes time... You need... It's like dog training... You need to... You need to do it... To do it... To do it... And then... It became a little bit better... It's like it... Now... I'm really relaxed in this way... So you... Yeah... Man... That's crazy... What about... The same question for you... With the training... How... How do you... You... You stay more in the... In the moment... Right? Or what? In this moment... In this moment... I... I have a nice dog... Really nice dog... But I don't train so much... One case... Okay... The elbow is a little bit... It's a little bit... Yes... It has an accident... But this is only one... One... One side of the story... On the other side... It's not... So much motivation now... Right... Now there... And... On the other side... You know... You... Now... My son is 14 years old... Now... And... And... And... And my daughter also... She is... Working... In my company... She makes her exam now... And now... I hope she begins to study... Her... Boyfriend... Maybe her man... In the future... Also is working... And so... Normally I want to say... I stop with the company... But...

So I need to work a little bit more... Anyway... I do it... And... And... We change also... A little bit the house... Now I'm here... In... In an old... Train station... From... 98... But it was... It's really nice... It's like a little villa... And... A little on the landscape... A little bit... 30 kilometers far away... From... From the... Company... And... And Claire's riding... And... She's not so bad... In this way... And... Jason begins now... With wakeboard... It's close by... Here's close... Six... Seven minutes from here... So I spent a little bit... Time with that... On the other side... I go every morning... And every evening... I go bicycling... I go with a young dog... How... How... How old? The young dog is now three... Three and a half... Okay... I have it from Spain... Um... The Casa de Simon... And I... Um... I was looking... When I was judging in Spain... And I saw the father... And the mother... And we became... Talking like this... And then... Say... I make a breed... I say... Oh... Maybe I want to have a dog... And then... Corona begins... Immediately... When Corona begins... I go and take... The dog... And after... The borders are closed... It was crazy... Yeah... Anyway... And... And... You know... I also have the dogs... Until they die... So... I have a 30-year-old... Female... It's a Cayman daughter... But... But... She... I only do with her... For here... For the house... I have Myron... Where I was in... France... But he... In 2016... He has a problem... With his knee... And his meniscus is out... And I have Nicky... And Nicky has only... You know... The problem was... With the teeth... That he... Yeah... When he was... Unlus K9... He's not that old... He's... What... Like... Eight years old... Eight years old... Eight years old... Yeah... But... You know... It was... In the end... It was... The good thing on the dog... He has a really high temperament... And want to run... To run... To run... But... Yeah... Yeah... Yes... And so... I go in the morning... With the... With the old dogs... Not so far... But I go with them... Three together on the bicycle... And with the other... I go... In the morning... Six kilometers... And in the evening... Six kilometers... This is what I need... From myself... That's pretty cool... Oh yeah... That's very cool... And... The good thing is... The dogs are really... In the family... Yeah... They are living also... With us in the house... And... I think this... Is... Different... And... Now I... Learn also... Dogs to look a little bit... From the other side... So... What they need to do... In the... In the house... When you say... Okay... You need to go here... Wait there... And so... Ah... It's also nice... I hope... I get a little bit more... Motivation... Back... So...

But because... I want to do a little bit... With the dog... Good... Good... Good... Yeah... No... Sometimes it's okay... To take a... Like I... Yeah... Yeah... I mean... How many years... Going... Full speed... It's... Yeah... This is not the problem... The problem is... That... That you... In the end... In the end... You see that... Ah... You're a little bit... Depressed about the people... I say it in this way... Not about the dogs... A little bit about the people... Yeah... We are strange... And it's not... This is not just... The dog community... I think people are just... How we are... Yeah... Not just... But look... Maybe a little bit... From the personal side... Now... I'm living here... In... On the landscape... And this is... It's... The people who are living here... Around... They are traditional... You know... Farmers... And all farmers... Are here hunters... I'm completely here... In this neighborhood... I need... One and a half year... And then they take me... Into the neighborhood... This is different... A different... Completely different thing... Yeah... Oh... It's like... Arnold... Huh? Yeah... It became a... But it was in California... Not in Florida... I know... I know... Man... You gotta come back... Again sometime... Like the place... I mean... It's still the same place... But... We've done so many... Things... Like since... Gosh... It's been 20... Something years... Yeah... Tell me... You know what I was... Wanting to ask you... And I kind of wanna... It's almost for me... Not only for me... But for everybody... So we know how to train... And prepare... A little bit... Because... When... When... Right before... COVID came... In... In... In Czech Republic... FMBB... You know... Like... When... All of a sudden... The judging... Became super... Super... Hard... And nobody... Was expecting... This was not good... This was not good... I mean... We have a lot of problems... To... To... To... To stop it... So... The problem was... The problem is... When... When... The stone... Be... Different to stop... Difficult to stop... Yeah... And this was the problem... What we have... Yeah... Then you can breathe... What you want... In the end... It's every time the same... Yeah... In... In... Especially... In Czech Republic... It was too rough... In obedience... And it was too rough... In... In protection... Of course... Okay... Yeah... That... This you can do... Maybe... That you can do... In the final... Because then... It's a little bit different... But... On the other side... We have... 100 points... We have this... 100 points... And... If you give... 96... Then you have also... Four points... To the top... For sure... If there is something... Really good... You know... This is... But also... For this...

This you need to learn... This... For this... And... This is... Different... Different... Difficult... To learn it... And... Back to one point... When we talk about judges... And we talk about... This feeling... Um... Then... Hmm... You need to be relaxed... To do it... And... If you are... Every time on the field... And say... Oh... I... I'm... I'm... I'm a little bit scared... To miss a little... A little... Little thing... Then it begins... Then the problems... Are beginning... Yeah? Do you find anything... Go ahead... Look... And if you give... 100 points... Or if you get... 100 points... In one discipline... Then... Normally... 100 points... Is not able to... To get... But... 100 points... I think you can give... 100 points... When the emotion is there... When you feel it... That something happened... And then you need... To do it also... It was... It was... I think it was the same... Same... Idea from... Van den Bosch... In... In... In... In Corpus... That he say... I give you... 100 points... Of course... You can find a little point... Of course... You can find a little point... But... You see it also... In the reaction... Of... Of the... People... Who are... Sitting... Everybody... In... This moment... Say... Okay... Nobody... And... I also give... 100 points... Of protection... Huh? Maybe it was... 98 or 99... But anyway... It was a winner... Right... Right... Yeah... Interesting... And I... Like... Do you think... It had something to do... Like... How do you feel about the... The four judges at FMBB? I... I'll tell you... Why I'm asking this... Is because sometimes... When I... When I watch... Or when I compete... It almost... Sometimes... Not always... But... You get the impression that... The judges are almost competing... With each other... Who... Is more... Harder... Or something like that... You know? Look... The... The idea... The idea of... This system... System... Was coming... From... Dog handlers... Who say... We... We... We want to have... Two different judges... That not... One judge... Is... More or less... Dog can... Don't like me... And they get less points... Yeah... That was the idea... Yeah... I think... I think... It's better... It... It became better... When the judges... Are a little bit more... Relaxed... And in the end... They stay together... And say... How you look to that... How you look to this point... And then they find... Then they find a solution... For the points... I think this is a little bit better... Than to say... Okay... One is staying here... And one is staying there... You make a lot of pressure... To the two guys... And when you make a lot of... A lot of pressure... It's the same with the dogs... Sometimes they get stressed... And then the things happen... Huh... So the idea...

Normally of... A two-judge system... Is... To talk to each other... And say... Hey... Come on... This was super... Huh... This was maybe not so good... But it was... It was not so bad... You know what I mean... Yeah... It's not... Satisfactory... It's good... It's something like... In this way... And then it became... A little bit better... Yeah... Okay... I have a really good experience... In the... In the... I think two weeks before... We have our German Championship... And... Um... Then Dennis Bauer... Was responsible... To laser tracks... He was... The judge who make... The laser tracks... Michael Curtis... Was the judge... And I was... The... Technical... Super... Yeah... Yeah... Yeah... Yeah... To take... To take... The book... The drawers... And everything... But we have... But... But... Michael make it really good... He say... Okay... We have different pictures of dogs... We have dogs... Who are a little bit under... Under pressing... But anyway... So they... But they need to show... An exact track... We have dogs with a high motivation... So they have a little bit more space... And... And we have different speed of dogs... And... He accepts this... And... Make a really good comments... So that every dog handler... In the end... Say... And... It was a really good atmosphere... In the tracking area... Yeah... And... When the problem was... With the... With the big rain... Okay... Then the people go a little bit crazy... And say... No... We need to do the four tracks... And then we see what happened... If not... If everybody failed... Then they get new tracks... And in this way we do it... And it works... Very cool... But it only works... When you have a relaxed team... And this is more or less a problem... Yeah... You've been talking about this... I know... A lot of judges... Who are really relaxed... But... Sometimes... They are a little bit too much political... Mm-hmm... Right... Yes... It's a very, very hard thing... With the politician... Side... Yeah... Yeah... So... As a judge... What... Like... What... Like... Let's break it down in tracking... What... What do you... Not... Not the rules... Not FCI... Not FNB... But you... As a judge... What... What... What does 100 points look like... For you... In tracking... What is the dog? Like... What is the... You know how we always talk... Emotional state... They tell... Mauta Lidlop... And years... Forget the shit... Like... Forget the shit... Forget the shit... Forget this... Forget it... I... Make... I do this... This big mistake... In... In... In Geislingen... When I was judging obedience... And... Explain it a little bit... About the motivation... And all the things... But then you have... A lot of people... Who are... Have not this experience...

In sport... And they don't... Find the balance... And then they begin... To make interpretation... And then... Yeah... It's done... In this moment... It's done... Yeah... I stay... I stay with one guy... When we are... After tracking... I stay on the... In the... On the side of the field... On the sideline... I was a dog... Oh... This is not... I like this dog... It's not a bad dog... But he say... Look... He's standing at the helper... And he's doing a little bit... It need to be a little bit more clear... Here... A little bit more there... I say... But in this way... If you want to do it... You need to make it clear for him... And when you make it clear for him... You are out of... Our rules... If you do it... And somebody see you... When you fix this... Maybe it's only one time for the dog... But then you're out... Uh... Uh... Uh... Yeah... Say what you want... Uh... It's every time the same... And this is a big problem... The judge need to find the balance... And you need to accept... Different pictures... But this you only can do... When you have... Trained different kind of dogs... Right... Right... And... And... And... And there is a little difference... You are able... To listen... And if you want to learn something... But this is also... Yeah... Because it's... It's becoming very mechanical... Of... Of looking at certain things... And... And... I know people... I mean... When we look to obedience... When we look to obedience... I'm a little bit happy... That we have the 50 points for free healing... So... Mm... The 50 points for free healing... There you can put everything in... Everything in... Every development... To the exercise... And... And... And... When you begin... With a 5.6 exercise... And you... Talk about... Basic position... Development... How many points... Right... What is left... The main... Yeah... What is left... The main part... For the sit... And then you have it... When you have... Then... Sometimes you have a... Fast sit... A fast sit... And maybe the dog needs a little... Need to be a little bit relaxed... And show a little bit to the side... Oh... If the focus is not there... If the dog is completely into the focus... And then... Because he sit a little bit too slow... Because he is on tense... And it's also not good... So what you want in the end... Right... You know what I mean... Yeah... Yeah... And... You don't... You only understand it... When you train a dog... Otherwise... It's not possible... And when you train a dog to... Men... I don't think even one dog is enough to... I say you need to train different kinds of dogs... Different kind of... That's the thing... Different kind of dogs... Because when you train one dog...

Even if we are super successful with this one dog... That's one type of dog... And it doesn't mean... It's not even about the breed... Right... It's just the temperament of that dog... And... It's a false... It kind of misleads you to think that you now know how to read dogs... And that every dog can act the same way... And... It's not easy to be a judge... It's really not easy... And so important... If you... Look... If you have a dog... Everybody talk about dominant dog... We all talk... What is a dominant dog? A dominant dog is a little bit more relaxed... Yeah... When I think about Kemen... Kemen was not aggressive... He was really relaxed... When he go into the protection... You say... Okay... No problem for me... It was a little bit like this... Yeah... The king is walking in... And... Yeah... And... And when you talk with the helpers... They say... Every time... When you make the pressure phase... And you think... Now it's super... Oh... It's really easy... Then he begins to put you out of your... Out of your way... Anyway... But... Back to the... To the judges... If you... And... This is he also... Almost... If you have a dog... Who is super... Special in something... Then... The judge... Say... This is normal... And begin... To judge in this way... When the dog... Have an issue in something... Then he also... Look from a different point... From his own dog... To the other dog... He say... Oh... Maybe this is it... I never get a fast down... So... That's important... But I get a fast sit... Fast sit is for me important... And here you need to find the balance... Right... Yeah... And important is... How you explain it... To the... To the dog entrers... How you make your report... Yeah... That's really... Really... Because... If you can... Give a good critique... And... And I don't like... You know how sometimes... Judges would... Turn it into... A little... A little... Mini seminar... As they're giving the critique... Starting to give advice... How you need to... And it's like... You... I mean... You don't even know... What the person is doing... But you're now... It's not about you... You're just... The judge to give... You... You have to... Give a hint... What is missing... So they can go back... And change it... This is very important... For a judge... But when they start to... Give you this like... Yeah... Oh... I know... How to figure... It's like... Oh... It's a... Strange one... I don't know what you mean... Yeah... It happens... It happens... And then... It happens a lot of times... Yes... To where... All of a sudden... The... The little club trial... Becomes about the judge... And not about the... Competitors... What about like a... Like really... What do you... What do you...

What will be your advice? And... You're one of the people... That can give good advice... For... The helpers of... 2023... Now that the stick hits... Are not possible... And... The program is so rigid... Like you make... Five steps... Pretend... Whatever... What would be your advice... For a... Helper... A trial... Competition helper... Like if you're judging... A big competition... What would you... Tell a helper... Or... How would you want to see... The helper do... So the dog still can be... Evaluated... And is it even possible? Okay... So... One thing is... What I want... We start from the beginning... In the blind... In the... For the back and hold... I want in the back and hold... That... That... The helper... One... One important thing is... That the sleeve is in front of the helper... Not on the side of the helper... So... That... We can stop the podcast right here... Cheers to that... We can... So... That we can see... Is the dog... Possible... To... Make... Back... And hold... With the sleeve... In front of him... Yeah... And... It's not that he can... That he can... A little bit... And void... And go from one... Or to the other side... So... We had this discussion... And... In the FBI judge meeting... Oh... If the dog is sitting... I say... If the dog is sitting on the left... Or the right side... It doesn't care... He don't sit in the middle... Right... Point... It... It... It... It doesn't interest me... How you want to train it... So... And then the helper also need to... To have... To look to the dog... And... He need to have a little bit like... Hmm... How I can say it... A little bit that the dog... Don't know exactly... What he expect in this moment from him... He need to be a little bit more cold... In this moment... Yeah... In the... In the... In the short escape... In the short escape... Um... I don't want to see this sprint... And this fast running... This is... Not the important thing... And... He... For me... When the dog... Really... Prevents the escape... Then the helper... Can stop after... Normally... But... It's not in the rules... But... You know what I mean... Yeah... And... The same is... In the... In the attack... I want to see... That... That the sleeve... Is in a horizontal way... And... He really move... Against... The dog... Not looking for one side... Yeah... And then the dog... Stopped him... He stopped him... It's not... Then it's a good dog... You know what I mean... Yeah... And on the... Uh... And... And then we have this... This part of... Back... Attack after back transport... And also... On the... On the long bite... For this... You need special helpers... Who really can... Move straight... And... And that they are... Able to catch the dog...

Really when they come in front... And not go... Before out of the line... And... And something like that... You know... They need to be... Um... I talk... I talk with... With... Ralf Konzerman... And... He's coming back... And... His son is really... I think he's... He became also a talent... And... Ralf was in the beginning... A little bit boxing... He say... With... This... With... What is it... The line... Oh... Yeah... Yeah... Yeah... This is good for your legs... And you need to have... Boxing with... With the... Sunsack... So that you get... Here... The moving in... In your hips... Yeah... This was really interesting... Um... And... And it was also... One of the... Really nice things... What happened now in Germany... And... And... And... And... Stefan Hillebrand... They do in their part of... Of... Germany... They make a helper camp... For young helpers... Open for... For every helpers... And... There were more than... 120 people... Something like that... There... And they really motivate... The young helpers... And to say... We have good... We don't see bad helpers... And they give a little bit... Their experience... This is good... Yeah... Very cool... Yeah... And... Yeah... I... On the other side... This mental pressure... This you need also... To explain them a little bit... And this is not coming by speed... Right... Speed actually... Takes away from it... Mm-hmm... But this is a... Do you... Even like... When we're talking about... The back transport... Attack of the back transport... And the courage test... How much is... Natural ability... Natural talent... And how much is... Skill... That you learn... What do you... What do you... What is your... Ah... Here in the brain... That need to connect... And you need to... And... You really need to like this... To go against the dog... And... And... I think... You need to have a little bit... Talent for this... I think you have... A lot of talent... A lot of talent... I think... Because... There is no time... To... To think... What you're gonna do... Mm-hmm... And if you do it... Too quick... If you start to move... Too quick... It's not good... So you have... Like in my opinion... A helper has to have the... Confidence... To... To be patient... Yes... That's right... Patient... Patient... And then the talent... And be fluid... And it's a very difficult... Combination... It is... It is... It is... We have some helpers... Who can do it... 100%... We have it... We have it... Maybe one point also... What we say before... For the... And... We want to have real attacks... You know... This moment to see... How the dog reacts... And... Um... There was one idea... It came also from... Michael Curtis... He said... Maybe we need... In our program... On one...

Point in protection... It can be... After back transport... It can be... After rear attack... That we have... A second... That we have... One... Addition... That we have... One... Addition... To... To... To... To... To... To... To... We have... One... Additional... Attack... But... It's... It comes... In some place... But... The judge can decide... On the discretion of the judge... Yes... I think... This would be... This is... It's not... To say... We want to have it... More difficult for the dogs... It's... Maybe a little bit for... Make it a little bit more honest... In the protection... In the training... Training... Very true... Yeah... Very true... Yeah... But that's gonna... That's gonna mess... All the point structure... But it would be... So good to have... Yeah... The... Yeah... Um... Oh... That would be so good to have... In... We have influence on... On... This is what... Every time the judges say... We want to have influence... Of the education... Blah... Yeah... Yeah... Um... But for the quality of the dog... And maybe then... It became a little bit more natural... Huh? And you don't... Yeah... Okay... Now my dog... Only need to prepare... To make out... And jump... Huh? And... And on the other side... You only need to stay there... And look... Huh? So then... What... What you do in this moment... In this moment... In this moment... You need to be more... More... More... More... More... More honest... Is the very... Yes... The right word... Because... Really like... So many dogs... And training goes now... Now you can get a bite... And now you don't get a bite... Mm-hmm... And the dog should always... Expect... That there can be a bite... And... And Michael... That's... Brilliant idea... I just don't see how it can be implemented... With... Because you're gonna have to... Figure a way... How to play with the points... You only need to divide the points... Yeah... This is not... This is not a huge problem... But... An idea... And you know... It's... To... People are a little bit also... I think our... I think our program is not so bad... What we have... I think the program is not so bad... But... When we have new people... And a new... Commission... And then they want to think... Okay... What we need to change... But... The problem... In my opinion... Is not to change... How to make it better... How to make it more clear... I think this is more important... Instead of changing something... What nobody understands... How do the changes happen? Do you know? Like how... For example... How did... The sit-out of motion... Became five points? It's a big mystery for me... I asked... I asked... I asked... Harry Archon... But he... He didn't realize... I asked... I asked... I asked... I asked... Harry Archon...

But he... He didn't realize... I asked... I asked... I asked... He didn't really answer me... And I don't know... If he knew the answer... Or what... But... Like... Sit-out of motion... Is a very... Very... Very... It's a mistake... Cool exercise... Important exercise... It's... It's a mistake... To make... To put five points... On this exercise... It's a mistake... That's the end of the story... And... Look... I was... Also in this... In this... In this... In this... Elitair group... But... In the end... It's every time... The same... You have... Every country... Have one vote... Right... It doesn't matter... How much experience they have... It doesn't matter... How many people are doing dog sports... This is not... The important point... Important... It's... That... Every country... One... Vote... And... You have... Different tradition... In the countries... Of the sport... Right... Right... Yeah... So... And... Who are the people... Who... Present... The sport... For the countries... This are more or less... People... Who have... What... Doing... In a... In a political way... And... In a political way... Every time... Is... That you have... That they build groups... This is normal... That they build groups... To... That they... They can put their interest... In front... Huh? This is... Huh? They have their... Lobbies... Yeah... Yeah... It's like this... So... Look... When I was going to... I was going to Romania... This is the country... We have no experience... In this way... Huh? And... You know... Our... A lot of people... Don't go... This... This... Thing was... Thing is not the right way... In the sport... But anyway... That is their decision... A lot of people... Don't go there... And... It was also... A little bit... Difficult... To do it... You're talking about... The FMBB last year... I mean this year... This year... It was a little bit difficult... For me... For me... The... The environment... On the field... That you have... Here's a field... With this... Scroll around... With this... No? And you have... Send out... Five meters... We have the agility... And... Ten meters... On the side... From the blind... You have the... The... The... The... The... The... The... The... The... The... The... The... The... The... on the performance of the dogs. It doesn't matter. So okay, some dogs were jumping in the sand out, but there was not jumping because there was agility. Correct. And it was only a small percent, maybe two dogs. I don't know exactly. But the people who are in the tracking field who do the tracks, the judges and also the helpers and also the technical director on the field, everything was in time, everything was perfect. The problem was a little bit the secretary because there

was too much for two people who do the whole thing. It was a little bit sad for the celebration that there was not the right form for celebration with a good protest with a little bit with really present and all the things. This is beside, but I think it's also important that you have in this way, have it good. But for me, the most important thing in this case as a supervisor was that the sport works in our IGP, that the judges are working, that the helpers are working, and that we have in this way, that we have a good team. And I think this was for me, one of the good experience. I was 12 days there. First, I was judging. They asked me and say, oh, do you can judge a little competition that we see what happened? Yeah, the little competition was the world championship of the Herders. Anyway, anyway. And, but, in the end, I need to say, also, when they don't make it perfect, I became a good contact with the people. This is people from there. And I feel from the host, hosting me, it was for me, it was nice. No, it was not high standard, but it's not important. And also, in the evening, we come together with the judges and the helpers, and we have good atmosphere. We don't talk about the dogs or blah, blah, blah, blah. We have only fun together. This was really nice. So it was a good group. And I also can do it like some other people it was doing from, from our, our commission stand on the side, look for critics, and only make it I try to make really to fix the things for the competitors. It begins with, put the draws and everything. Right. It was a lot of work. But I, but I say, okay, do it for the sport and, and, and do the best what they can do. Yeah. And, and do the best what they can do. Yeah. This was a little bit from the organization. Okay. What do you think about the, the, go, go finish, finish your thought. Look, for this, you need more people. And I think it's also that I say also in the, in our FMVB, talking also in the commission, and I said also in the board, when we have this, we need to, when we put it to countries like that, we need to support it, support, we need to have a team go down and help them and support it. We don't can say you need to do that and that and that and that. And if you don't do it, we blame you. I think this is not possible. Right. Yeah. On the other side, we need to catch these countries for our sport. It's important as more people we are, as better it is. A hundred percent true. A hundred percent true.

So what about the, like FMVB is becoming very difficult with, like the, you know, when, when we, when we first had the, the big unification, like having the obedience, agility, Mondio and everything, they were not so big. Now FMVB World Championship. I mean, in Mondio Ring, now you have almost as many competitors and it takes double more time. And it becomes very difficult for a country to find the space to, and the, and the manpower to have this big event. Yes. Yes. So, I mean, do you guys ever talk about this, like possibly going back to only IGP or, or, or, like, I really think it's becoming very difficult to find people to convince countries to, to, to do it now. Yes. You're right. The idea, the idea, the idea to make it like we have 1000 dogs in one spot. The idea was the idea, this idea come from Johan and the idea was, okay, now you have so much dogs on one spot, not only on a show or different dogs, utility dogs here together. Yeah. And this is a little bit showing to the public. Okay. We are, we are important. This was the idea. It's a celebration. Yeah. Instead of making small things. Yeah. On the other side, life became more difficult, more expensive. So it will become easier if you say, okay, we, we spent one and a half week or we spent two weeks. Yeah. You know, for this and make it step by step. But this is almost not possible. And the people, you know, when they are working, they don't have so much holidays. Right. And, and maybe they don't want to spend it in this time. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a interesting. Yeah. This is, um, yeah. The, the future will show what we can do. Yeah. So next one is Italy. Italy is crazy. Now they want to have, uh, this rescue dogs and they want to have, uh, they want rescue dogs and they want to have also the, the, the shepherd dogs. Yeah. Oh, wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, okay. They have the space, but I think it became too, it became too much. I know. And then you have, kind of cross bike, you're walking, blah, blah, blah. It's, it's a lot of things, agility, obedience, uh, monitoring. And, and, and, and it, it, it, it became too big. Yeah. And I think, you know, like at least as a spectator or competitor, when I go, I mean, I, yeah, of course I go and I see, watch a little bit of agility. I go and watch a little of obedience. I do watch Mondioring because, you know, it's, it's, I mean, I, I have interest in it and I train at them. I do the same. Yeah. I was looking sometimes here, sometimes there. Right. If you have some, yes. But ultimately when you're in one game, you, that's, that's where you spend your time.

Being a competitor or being a spectator. Like, you, more, the 90% of your time is in the sport you're interested in. Yes. And, and so even though what, what I'm trying to say, even though we are all together, which is again, a big celebration and it's big, like there is something special about it for sure. But even, even so we are still kind of inside divided into our interest groups. Yes. And maybe that's one of our mistakes. If the agility people and obedience people, Mondioring people support us and we support them, then we have more power. But it's like, you know, you know how it is. That's such a good point you're making right now. Don't need to go too much inside, but it's a little bit so, and, and, but it's a time that it's less and less respect. This is more or less a problem. This is such a good point you just made. And I haven't, I, I really haven't looked at it from that angle. Because ultimately the idea is for us to defend dog sports and to appreciate all the different angles. And, and, and that's not the case. We're missing that point. All of us. Yeah. We kind of look down on each other. Me too. We need to get old to, to, to get the ideas. I wonder how can we change that? And can you, is it even possible? I mean, look, um, you're always a crazy maniac in this, in this sport. Yeah. And you also have your visions and you also was, was, was going your way and fighting also for the things. Same like me. Yeah. But what I see after more than 45 years and 45 years, nearly 50 years dog sport now. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm not really proud of something what I was doing. I'm not really happy. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean I also can say that it was a good time, but the last years was not so good. You know what I mean? The last years were not so good. And on the other side, it's like it is. You get what you deserve. Yeah. It's not only that, say, it's a mistake of the people. It's also, I also have put the mistake in the motivation that I lose. Well, not have anymore so much. And it's not only that we do it for a long time.

If you have passion, you have passion. But you need to have a response. This is also important. And one thing that I think is really important to learn when you have, look, we have, both of us have a lot of success. But we also need to go with dogs, maybe where we don't have this high success what we had in the past. And this is also a point that we need to take, that we need to eat. Yeah. Very, very real. Very real point. We are not depressed now. We're looking forward. So if you were, like, let's say you had the power to change things in the bigger community of the dog sport, like all dog sports, how do you think we can come together? Is it even possible somehow that we could come together? The only way to change it is not the task of one man. Right. It's the task of the community. And if we want to come together, we come together. That's the end of the story. Yeah. But, you know, when you come together, you need to make, you need to accept different kinds of characters and you need to make your compromise. Yeah, for sure, there's got to be compromise. Oh, and there's, there you need to, there you have your own borders, you know, your own limits. It's like it is. But we are not even trying. No, we're not trying. I know. Maybe when we're getting old and coming with, what is this? The walkers. Let me sit there and say, uh-oh, how stupid we were. Yeah. Yeah, now I can laugh about it. I want, um, I, I never will completely separate from the sport. But it's a little bit when, when I say I do something and I have a task and something, if it's judging or supervising or doing a dog, then I try to do it in a good way. And also with a lot of power. But only if I feel I can do it, I will do it. Otherwise, I don't do it. Look, we have every year we have this discussion only beside now. Every year we have this discussion with, with the judges. Every year. The organizer came and give a list of judges. And we have this rule. We say the commission is responsible for the judges. So, and, and, and that this is not clear. It every time became a negative touch. You know, you go to the organizer and say, no, we, you, we put your proposal away because it's not your task. And then this, it's every time the same, but if you want to make it in a sport way, we have a committee for, for the, who select the judges and from, and they, every time from different countries. And we have a committee for monitoring, for AGP, for everything we have it. And this is important. And this organizer need to accept because he wants to have a good championship. We try to take good judges. We try to take good helpers. This is our time.

And then the pressure is on you. Not the helpers who are working for, look, not the judges or helpers who are working for our dogs. No, who are working for the competition. This is the idea. And when it became from organizer, there's every time, sorry, something behind. Yes, it's very interesting. This is a, this is a, such a difficult topic. I, I can see it both ways. I think, you know, like the. If you have been taking the responsibility for who the judges are, then you, you cannot blame the local country and the local clubs. If it went well or it didn't went well. And like you and I have been doing this and you've been doing it at least, I don't know how many years before me, but we've been doing it for many years at the world level. We know in the past how one country used to, okay, well, now it's our turn to get all the benefits and we select our judges and ha ha on you. And so having FMBB deciding and not the host country, there is a big benefit of that because you eliminate or at least you try to eliminate that thing of, well, it's our country hosting it. So we're going to make it good for our country. And, and it used to be like this for quite some years. Right. And, and it wasn't fair. And I think the idea that you're describing is very good. And, and, and it, it really, it makes people that are not going from the home country more comfortable entering the trial as being non-biased. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. It needs to be, the idea is every time the same. The best need to win. What do you think about the tracking? Tracking is becoming quite difficult to find even, even for training. I mean, you're, you're in Germany. You're in a, you know. Look, don't worry. Look, I have here, my neighbors are farmers and hunters and they have 100 hectare where I can go. It's a big problem with, I don't have the motivation to go, but why it is like this. They see when I go with my dogs that they listen, that they don't run after some rabbits or some other things. Yeah. And this is also a little bit to have the, you know, and, and, and, and they don't, I don't let them run through the fields. And this is also a little bit what, what, what we have. Yeah. Anyway, um, what I saw is, uh, I saw on a, on FMVB Ferran Schuster show me a little bit, um, a video. Uh, I, I don't watch the whole 20 minutes, but, uh, I, I show a little bit and he has this, uh, finding some articles on the square from 20 meters. Yep. Ferran is in one case a little bit special. Yeah. I like him, but he's a little bit special in one case, but what he is, what he is, uh, spending time in the, in the, in the tracking and in the ideas.

I really like. So he showed a little bit and the doc was looking for some really, really small articles. And the doc handler was standing on the outside. It was only 20, 20 meters. Yeah. And it was amazing how the doc was, how intense the doc was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. By itself, not on the leash or nothing. It, yeah, it's, it's for, for me, for so long dog sport and all the go for the tracking, a little bit difficult to understand, but it was amazing. It was amazing to see it. And, and I think maybe it's an idea, but. You know, we have now, um, in, in the States, um, what they call it American Schutzhund. And it's basically, it's a very interesting, it's been for two years and it's picking up some, some speed, but it's a, have you heard of it or no? No. So, so it's a, it's a very interesting combination of some new things and, and returning back to the roots of the program. So, for example, the, in, in, in Schutzhund 1, which is even crazy to say Schutzhund 1 today. It just doesn't sound right anymore. Right. But in Schutzhund 1, you have now, again, attack out of the blind, how it used to be. In the long bite, you have the helper running away, turning back and going at the dog. So, a lot of the old elements, but the tracking is what you're describing, what Schuster also was saying. It's an area search for the lower level. And then, it's a real detection work for level 3. Okay. Like a, like a real detection work. It's a very, I will send you some, uh, thing. I mean, you, you will be able to look it up too, but, um, and it's basically kind of, I think, an answer to all the difficult problems the, the dog community is facing today. And, um, but yeah, it, it's an interesting thing. And, um, who knows if it's going to take off or no, but because it's not the FCI, it's not, it's just an American thing. Um, another. Don't mean that it's bad. Right. Another thing, like we don't, we still are super fortunate that we can walk our dogs with prone collars. We can go all the way to the field with the electric collar and take it off. And if you're good on the field, you're good on the field. Then there is no, you know. You can be happy. I know. We're like, it's, it's very, very like, you know, like even few, uh, maybe a couple of weeks ago, I posted on Facebook cause it just came to me. Like, I'm like, I don't need to worry. I can just train my dog and show you what I'm doing. And there is, you know, it's so normal for us still. It's a difficult conversation to have. And in Europe, it's becoming harder and harder and more and more countries are submitting to that. idea that, um, you know, make it on one point.

Our problem is the people who need to support us, who need to protect us, they do the opposite. They do the opposite. They don't know what they do, but they do it. And, um, in the end is what you say. What we want to see is a dog who understands his work on the field. Right. With what you want to see. If the dog is depressed, you don't do it. If the dog is stressed, you don't do it. Huh? Yeah. And, and, and it shouldn't matter what you did in training cause you either did a very shitty job and you need to change it. I don't care what you've been doing, but that's not good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But this is a, we, it's here. It's a little bit like, okay, no, maybe it's not so nice, but. You know, uh, we say in Germany, the fish begin to, to smell bad from the head. Yeah. It's a little bit like this. So if you now have a head in Germany, that are people who have no education, who have no education. who have no, not where possible to do a job or to finish something. And they are lead us in Germany and they make the rules. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's the policy. And we have in our, in our, we have, we have really, really good, good, good politicals in the, in the past, really good, in the, in the good old past. Now then, and one of them, it was like Helmut Schmidt and they asked him, Hey, was it that you get the power? No, no, no. He say for me, every political need to be, have education, need to be successful in the job. And when his political area stops, he can go back in this job. This is what I expect from a political. Yeah. And now transferred to our dog sport. You need to have somebody who has education in the dog sport, who was possible to train a dog, who was possible to go to competition. And when he stopped his career as a judge, he also can go back and be also successful with his dogs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, but the mainstream blocks in another way. What is very interesting to me is that countries that, let's say Romania or Brazil or, you know, just some country that doesn't necessarily is affected by the laws of the country. But they, a lot, like the trainers are confused and they think that it's a, like it's a fashion to, oh, we do what is done now in Switzerland and Austria and Germany and we, just so we, and not understanding that they, they're losing an important battle without even fighting it. They're willingly giving it up. Mm-hmm. You know? Mm-hmm. I understand. It's a strange, as you said, like earlier, earlier in the podcast, it's a very strange time we are living in, in, in every aspect of life. Yes. I mean, it's, I. We have so good times.

Everything was okay. We can, we have comfort in life. We have everything what we need. Okay. We never have enough. Of course. We have everything what we need. And, and then it comes to the point that the people go crazy. And I think we are now in this past, this border. Yeah. Let's change the subject because it's depressing. Okay. Tell me about. Yeah. I mean, that's unsolvable. I think. Who knows? Let's just. But you have a good Havana. So anyway. Right. So besides Schutzhund. Yeah. What are the other ones, the other protection like TMPV, the Belgium, French ring and so on? What is another program that you have appreciation for? That you understand and that you understand the selection and so on? Yeah. So, in the moment when we need to stop the work with the suit, it was a little bit sad for me. So then, then I go separated a little bit. But I was also, I was also looking to, to France and looking what they are doing. The French ring. French ring, yes. And then I have an experience with, with the KMPV, but it was, it looks spectacular. But I saw one ring helper in 1995 from France, who was training, who was doing a little bit training with the dogs. And they say, okay, you can do what they want, but no dog was biting anymore. So, yeah. Yeah. It's so, so for me was, I'm a little bit besides this. I like to look at it, but, but I'm not so involved in the things, yeah. When you did the Kjorongs, there were sometimes dogs that do come from France or Belgium or, you know, I mean, what was your impression of the dogs that decided to do the Kjorong? How, how stable, how, how were they doing under the Kjorong programs? I mean, was there a big difference between the German and, let's say, a French dog or a Belgian dog? Yeah, look, look, look, there's no big, huge difference because we, we are breeding from this line. Right. Yeah. Right. We are breeding from this line. And, and, and we, okay. I think that the, the, the dogs who are from, from, from Belgium, who are more training in, in their, their ring sport in a static way for that, you get dogs with much better grips. Yeah. Yeah. Because you can see it in the static word. If the dog is able to take, to hold in French is a little bit different because, you know, the helpers are a little bit crazy. They, they, they train with a little small suit and then they look at the dog. Don't, don't get the food. Yeah. No, it's normal. Yeah. And, and, and this is more, so it's, it, it's nice and a really, really high sport for me, really high sport for me. But the selection of the dogs is, it's, it's, it's a little bit different than from, from what we need for our sport. Right.

When we see what happened with the dog from France, it's, the effect was more with the dog from Belgium for our sport. They were more, have more skills for our sport. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense. Do you think the sport kind of has a, a little bit like in Germany right now? Like, I know there is so many different, I don't know, camps or clubs or what do you want to call it? But it's quite divided, right? Yeah. Yeah. But all of a sudden, everybody seems to realize that we need to promote and educate the public and get them involved and get them to accept what we do. That it's not a horrible thing. Look, what happened with the young kids when they're playing together in the sand? Yeah. Yeah. Drinking from the hose. No, no. Everybody wants to have the best form to make his little thing of sand. You know what I mean? Right. And you want to be the chief Indian. Look, what we have, everything, what you divide, you have two. You have only the half. You have only the half. If you divide it again, you have only a quarter. It's like it is. So, and if something gets divided, it's really difficult to put it together. Right. Most of it, it never works. It's like it is. If you cut it, it's cut. So, and this is a problem. And this was always a little bit, bit, what I say, what I don't can manage was also what we have in our club. That I don't was able to hold the things together. Yeah. Normally, I need to sit in the car and go to the people and say, come on, we need to sit on the table and we need to solve our problems. Right. And it was personal problems. Right. It was only personal problems. And after it became, you know how the people are, after the things are divided, they almost come and say, we need to go against, against. I say, no, for what? It's done. It's done. You know, ironically, AWMA, our Malinois club in the States. We're super small. I mean, you know, we're like between 350 to 450 people. That's the complete membership. And a few years ago, there was a moment where we were going to have a split and have two clubs. Which is a parody. Like, what are we doing? Like, what, are we going to have like 20 and 20 and 20 and have five clubs? And as a competitor, as a competitor, I would love to compete with the best dogs. Not with the best dogs in this group, but everybody. And somehow, we did manage to keep the club intact. But it's like in our country, we have big problems with the people that lead and the people that train and say, foos to the dog.

And go and do every day what we like to do. And, right? You know what I'm saying. It's like, this is, this is, this is typical dog sport. Like, when was the last time you said foos to a dog? So, what are we talking? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know what you mean. But, you know, the things are always the same. The things are always the same. Look, in the good old times, in the really old times, it was the same. The people from Mexico, that's big, they believe that there is a river and a dog who brings you to the other side. The same was in Greece. But they never met each other, you know. So, funny story. And the same is with, in every scene, we destroy ourselves. We don't, can build a community. This is our problem. And it's natural for humans to be this way. Yes. Always to have, you know, the groups and the tribes and all that. But, finding a way how to, one day of the year, come together and have an event all together. Nothing compares to that. But somehow we, you know, the ego is like, doesn't let us do this. Yeah. Difficult. I don't know. Do you think, how many years do you think before IGP becomes... Like, I see... Like, I see... And there is young people that are getting interested in... But... Some, but less. Less, and... They don't know what the original idea of the... That dog sport was. Like, I mean, in five, ten years, they will be doing IGP or it's going to be called, for sure, something else. When... I will be looking at it and I'm like, that's not what I used to do. That's totally not the sport. How do we maintain, at least, at least not lose anymore? This is the big question that all of us need to sit down and figure it out. How do you think about it? I think... I think... The problem is... The problem is not... That... It's difficult to change... To change humans after childhood. Hmm. It's how they are growing up. How much they get from their parents, and so on, and so on. And this creates a little... This creates a character. So... For me, it's now my... It's come a little bit late, but now for me, it's more important to create this in my son, that he is able to do something good in the future. You know what I mean? It doesn't matter in which way. Right. If it's in dog sport or something else, this is not important. But that you have a foundation and that you have a little bit of basics for that. So, like we do it with our dogs when we start with them, huh? We explain them also a little bit, and we also show them their limits and that there are some rules. This is normal, huh? But this is in... It's difficult. So, but...

Come on, we have a good time. Oh, man. For sure. We have a good time, and when we meet next time, we also have a good time. So, this is for me more important. That's true. That's true. This is more important. And when we see good dogs, we are happy. So, this is... And it doesn't matter if I'm going or you are going or somebody else is going with a dog. When we see a good dog, we like it. And we need to accept, okay, there are different pictures and there are different characters and that's all. And that's what makes it interesting, actually. That's really what makes it interesting. It's like, oh, you train this way, I train this way. We come somewhat to the same performance. And... What would you say, tell, like, young trainers, at least in the States? And I'm sure people all over the world listen to the podcast. Young trainers, you know, the problem with young trainers is it's every time the same. In the time when I was starting, I was in a club. In the club was like this. We have some... We have the men who was responsible for the education. And what we have? We have three times in a week. Sunday we go tracking. And Tuesday and on Friday we make obedience and we make the protection. If you don't can go to tracking, you don't can do the other things. Yeah? What you need to learn is basics, basics, basics, basics. What we have now. Now the young people have some... Have some super... Intelligent and also good educated mentors. They explain everything. They prepare the dog. And then the dog has success. The next dog looks completely different than they try to do it by themselves. It's the normal way. When they have... So they have not this way of having basics and going up and having progress. No, they start really high and then it's going down. And then maybe... And when it's going down, then something's really interesting. Then they try to create some ideas and some points of view that this is not so bad what they are doing. Instead of saying this was shit what I was doing, I need to change it. I need to understand, come on, what are the basics of the things? And on the other side, how many dogs you see, how many dog hunters you see that they get, they take a good dog and then they... Of course, because the dog has a good education, a good childhood, and then they can do something. But from the start to the end, they don't are able to do it. Because they are missing the basics. They're missing the basics. And this is a little bit of a huge problem. That we have this basic training, that we have this clubs, where the people can go, where the young people can go.

Now, people try to do it with their, okay, you have a place free on the seminar, but it's too much for them normally. Don't have this education they need from the basics. And so, they miss a lot. And it's, if you need to work hard for some results, you are happy for these results. And you need that, you need to work for them. When you get it too early, then it became a problem. Because... That's a, yeah. That's a phenomenon for sure. That is a problem. And this, and then most of the people say, okay, they quit. Yeah. I mean, I was 25 years in a normal dog club until I grew up, I came up. 25 years. I was world champion before I became a judge. Yeah. And I was, my first was, oh, when I start to have a work, I say, I want to work one day on the highest competition, on the German championship. I want to, I want to go. And I get it in the end. Yeah. I get it in the end. But it was long time. When was that? Growing step by step. Yeah. And YouTube and Instagram and it's very difficult to navigate because there is good information and equally bad information. And how, when you, when you don't know, how do you find your way? You know what the, you know what the worst thing is in this case? When you have a high competition, you see a performance that is maybe not the best performance. And then you have a political judging. And then it became a little bit like this is normal. This is okay. If the dog is coming off in the, with a dumbbell and, and run beside you or sit in the head is a little bit down, don't present it. Oh, look, it's good. They get the points from that. And this is a huge problem. Yeah. And you know how we are as dog people. If we say, this is what we expect and we go in this way, then to train your dog in this way and you get it. So, so interesting how to, I cannot imagine me being 20 something and starting again. I probably will get lost. I would get lost. I don't know. No, everybody get lost one time. Believe me. And look, I was a lot of times thinking, okay, about the podcast. And so I say I need to spend it. I need to have the right time for this. This takes so long that I say, okay, because for me, it's not important to express myself. This is done. Yeah. Right. And the only thing is to give a little bit the experience and, and what, what my experience was and what the result out of this experience is. Right. This is, this is the thing. And the contribution. I hope it, I really hope that we stay a long time, that the sports stay a long time. Really. I hope it. I hope it. Um, and that what I can do from my side, do this. I will do it. Yeah. I will do it. But you, you're going to get back coming.

You have to get back in like full training and. Yeah. We will see. We will see. But you do. Look, it's so nice in the morning. It was how I stand up. Okay. I put my dog out. Yes. It is not, it's besides the bed. He has a little bit spacer. So I go out, I stand up in the morning. Then I need to go to the company. I go down and make my coffee. Stay around me. So then I go with him out, go with him bicycling, take the other dogs, go with them. So this is also what I want to do. For sure. And then sometimes I try to do a little bit with him short, only short parts, but not like before to go three days in a week or every day and training, training, training, training. No. Yeah. This is, it's not, this, I have no time now in this moment as well. And not the motivation for it. Yeah. I go back and forth like that, but, um, I, I guess I got some, I got. I got two young dogs and I'm doing mondioring with a one female, one year old, just, just because of this, I think, because I, I kind of want to refresh and do something outside, something that excites me again. You know, I, I think, um, a lot of times, um, um, it's very hard for somebody that it's very different to be successful one time. And, and, and, and, and, and, and I understand when you say that you lose motivation, I understand 100% what that means. Even if you win another world championship, so what? You won one more world championship, but the time, the effort, the sacrifice, the, the, the absolute amount of obsession that goes in to win a world championship. You need it. You need it. It's fucking insane. Yeah. It's insane. And you know what the end of the story is? The king is dead. Long live the king. Right. And you know, it's every time the same. When you are the hunter and you became the world championship, then you'll be the fox. Everybody is hunting you as normal. It's normal. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the biggest problem is the people have no respect for this. The people have no respect for this title. If you're in another kind of sport, the people have respect for you, but in this case, they have no respect. And before I forget it, look, we have in Germany, this, this iron lady, you know, Christa Bremer. Yeah. I know her since more or less when, since I start dog sport and I have a lot of fights with her, a lot of fights, but every time from face to face and never personally, never ever. Yeah. And she also will stop next year in the VDH. She was vice president in the VDH and I was, you know, people give a lot of comments. Stupid people give the most stupid comments every time, but watch that. We have her in our, in Germany.

She saved the sport for the last years. Of course she saved it. Otherwise it will be in another way. Mm-hmm. We don't have, then I think that we don't have the dog sport. She was doing a lot of things in this way. And, and then we have this stupid people around who was fighting against her. Huh? You, I don't know if you know, but it was crazy anyway, because this was also for me really important, but because this is a people, a woman have a lot of respect for what she was doing all the time for, for us. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . And she was all the time there when, when also I was doing a mistake that she stand behind. Mm-hmm . Because people don't have the back to do it. You know what I mean? They said better. Okay. We put it away and then it's easier. No, she was fighting for this and she was understanding it a little bit. Yeah. So we met in Italy or you come to Italy. I, I, I, well, I, I'm not gonna, I, I think I'm coming to Italy, but I'm not competing because my dog is too young. So the one dog that I have, he's just turned two years old. Okay. And I'm having a lot of fun. Like I'm having, like, I feel like 20 years ago, that's how excited I am all of a sudden. This is good. I might be, I might be crazy, but. I hope I catch the same moment. It, I, I wish that it comes back at you because it's a. Yeah. To stay in the field and make a competition. Yeah. Kind of feel like a little kid, you know, like I, I wake up and, and I'm like, oh, I need to do dumbbell. You know, like I get excited again. Okay. And that I didn't think that I will, which is, you know. Um, but yeah, I, I definitely want to come and. And. I think it's important for all of us to, to find ways to, to give back and, and, you know, just how you're talking about. Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh. Uh. And it's never, it's not a thankful job. I mean, being a judge, being a helper is one thing, but being really in like the bigger organization in like where you are now with FMBB or how you were at FSIA, you're always somebody that most of the time everybody points at you as you're doing it wrong. Of course. And it was not possible, it was not possible in FCI to bring it on the sporty way. It was not possible. It was short before, but then you find something and then you are out again. Anyway, it's like it is. This is our biggest problem, I think. Like we have to find ways that we can disagree with each other, strongly disagree with each other, but maintain that ultimate goal for the future. And we don't have it yet. We don't, I don't know. You're still judging though, right? I mean, you're still going out and judging. I'm judging. I'm judging now, I think. I'm judging now.

The next judging was in, I think. In Spain. Yeah, Spain again. Yeah. In Spain again. I was judging a lot. I was judging all over the world. I was judging four times VDH. Right. In Germany. Yeah. Yeah. I just looked at you like, you know, before the podcast, I'm like, man, I don't think I know everything Edgar's done. And that's the, that's something that's missing with the young kids. They would go and try to learn something from somebody on YouTube that has a Malinois, that has not done nothing, but has 200 followers. It's, it's, it's a mind blowing to me. Yeah. And, and all you need to do is go guys, go on working dog, type Edgar circle's name, go to his profile and go down and see how many first places in national and world championships and how many second places, how many followers do you have on YouTube, by the way? I, I don't know. I really don't know. I don't care. Exactly. I don't care about this. I don't care about YouTube or something like this. Really, I don't care. And this is the, this is where I think young people get very, you know, finding, finding who to learn from can be so confusing today. Mm-hmm. Because there's, the kids are used to like, oh, there's 200 or 500 or a million followers. He must be doing something right. Yes. No, he's paying some. Public relation. Right. But hopefully. It was also in the, on the, on the point that I say, okay, now you go and make it professional in dog sport or you stay also and make your job and in your own car company. I say, no, this is a beside. If the people want, want me a little bit, I come, I do a little bit, but on the other side, I'm, I'm, I have my company and this is where I, I get my money from. And this is for me. Yeah. Yeah. So this was my decision. Yeah. Also, I understand that people are doing it in another way. Everything is okay. Yeah. Right. It's not that I blame them. It's not only for me was, this was my way to be also not dependent on it. You know what I mean? Yeah. Not dependent on success, blah, blah, blah. You know, you know what is all around this shit. Very interesting stuff. Okay. My friend, I think now I need to walk my dogs. We have a long time podcast. It was very good. Boring in the end. Very, very good one. I'm very appreciated that you, you found the time to do it. And yeah, hopefully I see you in, in, in Italy, my friend. Oh, of course. Say hello to the family. If I, man, if I see, if I see your daughter, I probably would be like, wow, are you kidding me? No, they don't. We kill you. I can, I can send you a video from, from her post jumping. Cool.

Maybe I, maybe we think of, since you're still judging, maybe, maybe we, we figure something out to bring you to Florida again. You know, by the way, outside of everything, like every time with me and my wife, with Natalia, whenever we, like, she, she always thinks so high of you. Cause that, that was her intro to it. Yeah. Yeah. We were training a lot of Mr. Dog from you. The next one. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Say hello to the family. Okay. Thank you so much. See you. take care Take care