온 큐 - 에피소드 4: K9 오브 카시(인도)와 함께하는 NePoPo® 토크

Yeah, so today our guest is Kashi and uh Kashi, thanks for joining. I know it's very late where you are in India. And yeah, thanks for joining in. I'm Dominic and yeah, I think uh the best thing we do is when you just introduce yourself, what you do, how you came to dog training. What kind of dogs do you have for the people that don't know you? And uh yeah, just where you come from, what you do. Okay, hi guys. Yes. Thank you for having me over. This is like wonderful. Um my name is Kashi and um I've just been training dogs perhaps under about three three four years. That's about it. So I essentially I'm a full-time lawyer. I I have a practice as a lawyer. And I've been practicing law for the last 20 years. So when COVID happened it was perhaps one of the best things that happened to me because I suddenly discovered that, you know, I can do something else besides practicing law. So during COVID when most of my friends my lawyer friends were quite unhappy with the situation, we had courts which were shut down. For me it was a blessing in disguise because I had dogs and I wasn't really engaging with them to the extent that I'm engaging with them right now. So it was it was and I had one of my friends who posted a challenge like a 21-day challenge. Initially when India underwent COVID, it was just it was meant for three weeks. Okay, three weeks complete nation wide lockdown and perhaps to reassess the situation. So during those 21 days, a friend of mine Varun Anand he kind of posted let's have a challenge, guys. Like a Facebook challenge. So he would post videos every day and he would ask all of us to kind of, you know, rise up to that level. So that got me hooked. It got me hooked because every dog that I was with I didn't realize this, but I was probably laying good foundation earlier because everything that was posed as a challenge, it was very easy for me to have executed it. So I started thinking backwards. I said, how is it some how is it possible that some of my dogs are really picking up well and some of the dogs were like, what do you want me to do? So that So that's when it started happening and of course when COVID opened up and the courts began working normally, I was like by then I was really addicted. I said, when I'm not doing law, I got to be doing dog training. So out went to my hiking, out went my trekking. I stopped running. I stopped um I stopped I had I was I do a lot of hobbies and all those hobbies took a backseat. So it was just now law and dogs. So I have about I think eight or nine dogs now. How many is that? Yeah, I never count them. But um yeah, so I have two Weimaraners. I have a Belgian

Shepherd. I have a German Shepherd. I have a American Staffordshire terrier. I have Cooper who I believe is a fox terrier. And did I miss anyone? No, I I now have a new pointer. I'm just trying to figure out what I do with that. And I have puppies. So Oh, wow. Yeah, so yeah. I have puppies and in fact, that's what's keeping me up awake at night. So it's today is the fourth day and I'm now I'm the nurse. So Yeah, the video the video that Say it again. Go ahead. I think there's a lag and so when you stop talking, I start and then it's on my Wi-Fi. I got to get it fixed, I guess. So Okay. So I was saying the video that I posted today morning with with my Weimaraners mating and I'm doing a call off and reward. So that was like 60 days ago. So I just waited for the puppies to be born and puppies are healthy and I said, okay, I I can now post a video. So I have nine puppies. So you're planning on keeping them or you want to sell them or No, I will I will always keep two or three. I just want to see what's coming out of this litter. I already have two puppies from the previous litter. So I'm that was with a different stud. This is this time it's with Kaiser. So I really want to see what what Kaiser produces. What kind of imprinting can I do as a trainer? Um because I'm not very happy with my [ __ ] you know, she has little issues. Nothing that can't be resolved, but my whole game now is perhaps when the puppies open up their eyes and ears, you know, the whole neurological uh rebirth take place. I want to remove the imprinting of the mother and to see what I can do as a trainer. You know, so I want to This is just an experiment, but um I just want to be careful about what I do. But I plan to move the mother out and see what I can do uh whether how puppies can learn through my imprinting and through my exposure. So I'm I'm going to be making notes on what I do with these puppies. Uh so I will perhaps keep three puppies with me or at least two. Awesome. I edit yeah. That's a handful. That's a lot. I have no I have no excuses. So I always think that I have a handful, but I I think I got it pretty easy. So I don't know if if everybody realizes it, but it's um I'm looking at the clock behind you right now. It's 2:45 in the morning, right? For Kashi. So pretty uh he's tough. Man, I I would be if I was if I was up at 2:45. Yeah, yeah. Getting it done. But anyhow And I got to run and I got to run to court at 10:30 in the morning. Man, wow. Yeah. So yeah, it's it's pretty good. what Go ahead. What um What brought you into What turned you on to NePoPo? Just I'm curious. Huh. Yeah, so what happened? But I think like most of us you you don't hear about Bart or

Michael, you only see them. And when you see them, you're like, who are they? And then how is it possible? Like I remember when the first exposure that I ever had with Michael and Bart was two different times and I didn't know they were married. So I saw this Michael with his muscle mania video with Kimo and to me it was like, why would a dog do that? Like why would a dog enjoy being muzzled? I mean, it's like I I'm a complete pet parent. So So that's that struck me, gave me a lot of sleepless nights. It did. And I kept like I kept Do you think there's food in the muzzle? You know, I started going backwards, but ultimately the question was why is the dog doing it so happily? So, I still remember there was a a video of Michael and Bart with I think it was not with Jack. It was with Ragnar. Uh they had posted a video of Bart offering his finger on unforced force fetch. And then and then the dog bites the sleeve. So, there were a lot of comments and including some very negative comments. And I think one of the comments Michael had responded saying that sir, please show me a video of your dog holding something and then with a switch of drive biting something very hard and outing. If you can show me a video, we'll be happy to follow you. So, she just responded. And I in my enthusiasm, I wrote to Michael. I said, "If I do it, will you look at my video?" through Messenger. So, so that's how it started. And she said, "Of course." And I started working on it. And so that's what got me hooked. And then of course, Bart and Fara video, I mean it's it's it's something that I keep seeing every month and I keep thinking yeah, you know, this is this is like a dream come true if I can ever replicate even like 10% of the video. But that's how. So, what drew me to NePoPo was basically the philosophy that it allows you to think and explore rather than be instructed. So, every other method that I had very little exposure and I now have stopped following most people most other people, but they were all instructional based. They were like, "Do this. Do this. Do this to get this." And for me that was difficult because I had different breeds and different breeds responded differently. So, to me that method never would ever work. So, what I really like maybe maybe this comes as a background as being a lawyer, I like to research. I like to think. I like to engage. So, for me this whole philosophy was very engaging with the trainer. The trainer would have to think, rethink, go back, cross-check, and do it all over again. And still know that he would never be right unless he did it many times. For me this was the most challenging

thing to understand and to say, "Look what my dog knows today, he knows it today. Tomorrow in a different aquarium, he may not know it." As opposed to as opposed to certain instructional methods where they believe that if you taught your dog to do something, he will do it no matter what the environment is. So, that's like pulling wool over your eyes and and assuming that your training is foolproof. It's never foolproof. Yeah. So, these are some things that drew me to NePoPo. Um yes, I'm like I can majorly follow Bart on all his interviews because most of my learning comes from his interviews. So, and I've said this earlier and I'm saying it again. Like I watch his interviews in a loop mode. Sometimes I listen to few things and sometimes I listen to some more, but he says the same thing. It's just that few things make sense to me today and few things make sense to me day after tomorrow. Yeah. So, I'm like yeah, so I have like like I have these notes every time I'm following his interviews, I keep making notes. Say, "Okay, he said this. It means this. Now, go back and see what I can do that." So, this is how I completely built my training manual. So, I now have like my own book with notes, copiously made notes from the interviews and some of his like the recent videos that these guys have been posting out. There is a certain chronological order they follow, why they do why they don't do certain things. For me like for instance, the pedestal was the most important thing that I could ever learn. I mean, I have dogs that just break open the kennel doors and they can just run free. Imagine imagine having a dog to exercise self-control, come out of the kennel, go and put himself on a pedestal, and then do things. It's it's like a brake, but it's also like ped- it's also like a gas pedal. The moment he comes on the pedestal, he's like, "Okay, give me something. Make me do something and then maybe I can do things." So, for me that was a revelation. So, everything is a revelation if you start to look at it from your dog's perspective. Otherwise, when I watch people's videos, they just remain videos. Okay, does that make sense? Sounds awesome. Yeah, awesome. But the question of the question is did you manage to get your video done with holding the finger and biting? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've done it many times. I think even Bart shared it. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So, I I I I did a couple of things. I did a hold. I did a out. I did an indication. I did a bark. I did a hold bite. I mixed it up. Like I got the dog to hold a currency, do an indication, hold, bite, out. So. Yeah, you I I love your videos. To be honest, I I love watching every one of

one of your videos because you're so creative in in free shaping and and doing all that stuff. It's awesome. And with with the other breeds than than usual. Yeah, you're not I mean, you have a Malinois, but and the shepherd, but um you have just small dogs, big dogs, and it's it's just awesome what you can do with the dogs. Yeah, but there is something that I've been meaning to talk about it. It's like quite often we get stuck in free shaping and we never move beyond. So, just like luring, there is always a problem. Even with free shaping, there is always a problem because you enjoy free shaping so much that you get stuck in free shaping. You forget to name the behavior either classically or operantly. And then you never have it Yeah, you never have it on cue. So, those are the few things that I constantly keep reminding myself that look, okay, he's enjoying the behavior. Now, let's start naming the behavior. Then let's start enforcing the behavior. Yeah. So, yeah, I like free shaping, but I'm also very aware that I need to get out of free shaping. So, So, every now every behavior that I do now, I'll probably do a free shaping behavior today and 10 days later I'd like to post another video where the dog is doing it on command. So, for me that's like a complete evolution. Yeah. Otherwise, yeah, you just hold food and hold a clicker and the dog is going to spontaneously jump up and do some things and you have a fancy video. It doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so someday someday that there's there's a day that you have to name the behavior. I mean, free shaping is a lot of fun, but the dog does this, the dog does that. But later on then then your dog is 3 4 years old and you say a command and the dog doesn't know what to do and the dog sits running everywhere. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that happens. That happens. Yeah, I think the progression though. That's the best progression is to go from you know, just free shaping and then when it's perfect, when it's just the way you want it, then you know, put a name on it. That way you're not diluting, you know, your cue word, whatever word you're using, you know. It's specifically identified with the finished behavior. So. Yeah, so so So, here's a trick I do. Um I'm not sure what it's a trick. It's just It's just something that I do is that when I'm free shaping, I'm consciously trying to also free shape a secondary behavior at all given points of time. Okay. So, it helps me because I all There is always a possibility for a dog to do either of them and still and still get the marker Yeah. rather than do something else which is not in the aquarium.

Does that make sense? So, I never want my dog trying to offer me one behavior even in the shaping uh technique. I'd like to leave some scope for him to do another behavior. And I see where does this desire lay stronger and then I mark that behavior. So, when I play lay a command, when he does that behavior, I know that he's understood that. But even if he has not understood that and if he offers me another behavior, I say, "All right, I'll delay the naming, but now I'm getting two two behaviors in the same aquarium." So, like the video that I post maybe the dog jumping on a treadmill and and wearing his collar would have been incomplete if he didn't know how to remove his own collar. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, then then the speed of the dog is like he just runs in. He just manages to put his neck in a collar So, the dog must know to take it out and come back and get his marker. Yeah, that's also something that Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, that's also something that Bart always says when you do when you shape a behavior, you always have to do the opposite behavior because otherwise you just only get stuck in Let's say you want to send out your dog, then you have to also train the recall. So, the opposite behavior so you can always switch. And also in your case, it doesn't make sense to shape the behavior to go with the hassle of the collar and then the the dog doesn't know how to get it off because then you will get stuck and maybe panic or then you [ __ ] up the whole exercise. True. Then he will just have a negative connotation to the whole exercise. Yeah. Yeah. So, in fact, somebody asked me, "Why are you training this that particular exercise? Why are you training this? Does it even make sense?" I said, "Nothing ever makes sense. You can have a dog and just free feed him." Yeah. I said, "Yeah, I just do things to keep him engaged. And when I train my dog to do a behavior, I'm learning how to do this behavior better with another dog." Yeah, that's what I'm also always saying. Yeah, every every dog you can you can learn how to do it better with the next dog. But also every dog is different, so you got to see if that way fits with your next dog. True. True. But as long as you remember to keep the drive intact in whatever you do, you probably won't get it wrong. Yeah. So, for example, the muzzle mania video. That That was the first video that that that I'm always very close to because that's what drew me to the balance. So, I managed to do that muzzle exercise with three of my dogs. My Cooper, my Kaiser, and my manual. So So sometimes few things if you understand it intrinsically how it's done by maintaining drive and maintaining

ignition of the dog, you can you can have different breeds do the same exercise. And they will look identical in their expression of the drive. So yeah. So I it's it's it's not um I would not agree with the statement that different dogs would be doing different things. For me, different dogs, identical drive, yeah, I can get identical behaviors. Ignition is very important. Yeah, I'm just looking at the puppies here. Yeah. Yeah, successful mating. Yeah, yeah, we have puppies. Oh, yeah, I was telling you about these puppies. I was telling Mike. So, I'm just I'm just asking you guys, is this normal for a 13-minute puppy to be standing on hind legs? I've never had puppies. So, not that not like that. Yeah, I understand crawling. I understand very frankly behaviors. But, you know, when I placed the puppy in a basket, the puppy was always standing on the hind legs trying to climb. 30 minutes into birth. So, I'm like I have no idea, but maybe some somebody that's watching maybe somebody can just answer the question in the comments. We just wait. Yeah, I probably will post that video because like I forgot to collar that puppy. So, because I would love to keep that puppy. So So So, yeah, but yeah, so that's how it Yeah. So, Khashi, I have a question that I'm always was curious because I only know the the dog training community in in in Europe and in the USA. So, how is the dog training community in India in general? Do you have also like national championships and IGP, Mondioring, or or whatever? Or how is that in India? I have no idea. So, India didn't have sports for a very long time. Okay. We have a fantastic PSA clubs in India now. Yeah, and and I saw that video. You you you were decoying there, huh? Yeah. Yeah, so this was like I think this is the fifth year of PSA. And one of my very close friends, Varun Anand, he's the first Indian to get this PSA 2 first leg. With a with a Dutch Shepherd, with a female Dutch Shepherd. So, yeah, we've we've come way far now. Like we started off with no but now nothing, nobody. India was not even on the map, and today I think India has about perhaps six PSA 1 dogs. One PSA Yeah, one PSA 2 first leg, and many PDCS. Uh we also have about six, seven certified decoys. Uh so, yeah, so it's like PSA India has accepted PSA and has embraced PSA. Uh that's like the new sport. We don't have IGP yet. We don't have any IGP uh competitors. There are just two of them, and they go outside India to do something. Uh they've got their IGP once, but yeah, no IGP. Uh no Mondioring, no KNPV, uh nothing of the sort. No dog diving, no frisbees, and no What's that? Flyball, I think. Uh yeah, yeah, no flyball, nothing of the sort.

It's just one sport. It's one sport. So, there aren't many trainers who train for the sport because PSA is also very demanding sport. It requires you to affiliate with somebody at a certain level. You can do PDC perhaps on your own, but you still require a decoy. And as you go higher and higher, you need to have like a village or community around you. So, uh we have very few, but it's not much if you look at the whole population of India. Yeah. Okay. But yeah, but what we have, they're pretty strong. I mean like I remember Jonathan Cats was in India for the judging of the event, and he said the Indian obedience is like national level. Like people were just getting like the 19 out of 20, 19 and a half out of 20 in heeling, recalls, everything else. So, he I think he wants to see a little more better protection work. Yeah. But yeah, like obedience I think that we Indians have nailed it in terms of PSA ones. Yeah. So, you're trying to get into into PSA with your with uh maybe one of your future future dogs? Uh you know, I am a bit of loner in the sense that one, I live far away from the city. For me, going going to the clubs is very difficult. Though I'm I mean everybody in the PSA is a friend of mine. I mean like I remember when I I thought I'd certify for a decoy. So, you know, I just thought I'd go in for the certification. It's a video that I still should upload. With 20 days, everybody said, "Okay, come, take my dog." Everybody. And they they just opened up. They said, "Come, do whatever you can. We'll help you all." So, I went through the certification process, and at the last minute, I was I fell down. This is a very big dog. It's like a 44 kg dog. I don't know how much that's in pounds. That's perhaps 90 pounds. So, I had to I had to catch a 90-pound dog on a courage test, and that dog pinned me down. Yeah, so So Yeah, so that was that was like a big big fall, big fall. But yeah, it was good fun. I probably will um try to be involved with PSA in terms of decoying because I I like decoying. Uh it it challenges me as a person, and it's uh it's something that I can be responsible for myself rather than put all my hopes on one dog, and then be disappointed if it doesn't turn out. Because none of my dogs have had foundations for any sport. They're just like they do everything, and and they do nothing at times. Because like I said again, when I got into training dogs, I would never train for a sport. Yeah. And it's unlikely I will ever compete in a sports because I admire the dedication that you require in a sports, but I'm not ready to make the sacrifices. Like I can't take be focused on one dog for 1 year

to to title him, and ignore my other dogs. So, I In a way, I want to be fair to all my dogs. Like what do I do with Cooper? I mean, he can't go into the PSA, right? But he's got so much potential. Yeah. What do I do with my Weimaraner, my Kaiser? He says he's phenomenal. But So, I just want to make sure that all my dogs get their opportunities with me and my time with them. And I can sit in my farm and train all my nine dogs in a span of 1 and 1/2 hour. Or I can just take one dog, drive 2 hours to and fro just to have him bite someone for 10 minutes. Yeah. So, it's it's a decision that I took, and I'm quite happy with the decision because it allows me to be fair to all my dogs. But at the same time, I completely respect all those guys who devote their time to dogs. I mean, it's in terms of sports, it's like a huge commitment. So, I'm not I'm not undermining anybody who's playing sports, but I'm just not ready for that kind of sacrifices. Yeah. And I think also sometimes if you buy a dog or if you breed a dog with the intention to go on a trial, I think sometimes you So, I noticed that with myself. Sometimes you forgot, and you you you forgot that you love training, and sometimes you Yeah. You want it too much so that you only focus on training and training and training, and forget about the social interaction with your dogs. So, Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. I know I know people who say, "You know, my dog is a working dog, so he's always in a crate." Because they never want to put him out of the crate. Yeah. I I remember Bart saying this in some one of his interviews. He said, "When you start training, train like a circus. Like how they train in circus. Yeah. You train your dog like a trick. Because when you train it when you teach a behavior like a trick, you accept what the dog gives you. Instead of asking for precision, you you look for passion in the dogs. Yeah. And and and to me, that's to me, my entire training has been that one line. Train a dog to do a behavior like you train a dog to do tricks. You take what the dog gives you Mhm. as long as it's with a lot of heart and soul. And and you're still training. Because you can The dog is very very forgiving of you because you will take what the dog gives you. So, the dog will just try and do better. Yeah. And that's the challenge when you train dogs is that when you train, you don't know when to stop at the best behavior of the day. You you push. You push. You're chasing your own dopamine. Yeah. Yeah, it's never the dog. True. Yeah. I just had that same conversation with uh Kent Bowman uh through a couple days ago, and it was um you know, shortening my my training

sessions down to about 5 minutes because, man, I'll push it and push it, and before you know it, you know, you're you're burning your dog out. Even if even if your dog sometimes is still showing that heart and soul, you can still, you know, you push it and you push it. So, what I've been doing this week, really since I talked to him, it was um I haven't been doing like formal training sessions. You know, I'll just put my a training vest on or uh fill my pockets full of kibble, and just walk out in the backyard with them, you know, one at a time. And of course, as soon as they hear the clicker the first time, they're they jump into what can I run around? Or what can I jump on? Or what can I stick my nose in trying to But, just keeping it fun, you know, not formal, not um no expectations. Just And I'll say this, this happened yesterday. Um I've been doing it for about a week now, and yesterday uh and he did it more than once. He probably did it half a dozen times, and he did it again this morning. So, Venger, my 9-month-old, he just um would come and run into the heel position, like jump into the heel position. You know, focus, too. And I So, it kind of at first I was like, "Well, that was an accident." You know, I clicked it and treated him, but then didn't it again and then I take a couple steps and he stayed there. Um but just something that I've been if I'm real short with it, I've been able to keep him passionate about training, but as soon as I push it a little bit too far, you know, he gets discouraged and I can see his tail just change everything changes. Um but with out there in the backyard the last week and even this morning, totally different. Just he initiated it. He um and was pushy about it even. So I just couple reps and then you know, it was over with, but really um not being so formal for me has been has taken the takes the pressure off me and it takes the pressure off the dog and then we both do better. And then so it actually feeds my dopamine more rather than me chasing it, just letting it happen. It's um turns you into an addict. He's looking forward to the next session. And you also, not just the dog. Yes, me too. Yeah. So in fact that helps me because with so many dogs I make it a I it's mentally I'm only available to each dog for 4 minutes a day. So I can wrap up my entire six seven dogs in a span of 1 hour. Yeah. When I go Yeah, when I go back in the evening my dogs are ready to go back to me. So I I found this easy because I just didn't have enough time to deal with all my dogs. And I realized that I was just burning them out expecting one heel. Yeah. And just going after that one behavior for 10 minutes

when the dog just doesn't get it. Yeah, so three four minutes I think is perfect. The rest of the time of course you run with your dog, you play goofy, you will throw ball, but real training I think four five minutes is a max with me too. Yeah, like even with my Cooper and my Kaiser, my Weimaraner and my fox terrier, it's never more than five minutes. And no matter how much energy they have I'm like I'll just take what you give me today and we'll build tomorrow. Yeah. Hi ma'am. That's Michael Ellis. Yeah, like she said, short and powerful. Yeah. Always inspiring us. So Do you Do you often Do you Do you use the dopamine box? Because I I I I'm not sure. I can't remember if you if you showed us a video with the dopamine box. I use it all the time. No, I use it on all my dogs, even puppies. I use it That's when I feel lazy, that's my go to go exercise. Ah. Yeah, so it's So I'm always training. So when when let's say when I go to court and my staff has to feed my dog, I just said just dump the food in the box. Don't give Don't Don't give it in a bowl. Yeah. Yeah. So when I come maybe next time I put less food, but yeah, box is like the I take the box as my food bowl. So all my puppies eat from the box. I'm always with the box. I have many boxes. And yeah, so this And once you walk around with the box, you do multiple things. You can do multiple things. Yeah. It's no longer a box to me anymore. For me it's like a huge tool in my entire equipment. I use it on my board and trained dogs, dogs which are aggressive to feed them so environmentally they just go blind. Yeah, so that's that's something that I picked up and I've really embraced the box as a part of my core training principles. I think I think the box is like a the gateway to focus in every behavior. Once the you know, what and it just once you understand it, I feel like that you know, you can transfer uh the focus of the box into any behavior. You don't have to. It does it itself, you know? Um I think that's the magic of it. It's just kind of you know, flows into everything. So when when you guys uh use the box uh What is What is your last destination? Or when do you fade away the box? At what stage do you guys fade away the box? If you have to. Say that again. So at what stage would you stop using the box? I don't ever stop using it. So then the next question is what new behaviors can you create in a box apart from let's say article indication, focus and maybe environmental desensitization? What are the new other things that you can do with the box? Yeah, so the last time I think I I we talked about this, I mentioned um using it for just basic focus in like a So if a dog

knows to keep his head in the box, you know, until you release him and if he understands that the the longer he keeps his head in the box you know, there's uh the potential for reward to come regardless of distractions then to me like if I set up a similar scenario then the dog if say I Now put the dog in a heel position, the dog learns kind of innately that the longer he stays focused in the heel position just like he was focused in the box, there's a potential for reward to come you know, no matter if the distractions are there or not. And I mean, does that make sense? It makes sense. Okay, let let me rephrase the question because I had something in my mind. So when you click, would your dog come out of the box? I guess that's how it's normally is, right? You click and the dog comes out and you don't click the dog stays in the box. Yeah. So there was So there was this another comment by Bart at some point of time he says when you click, the dog must continue remaining in the box. Yeah. Yeah, so when the when the Yeah. When the behavior becomes the reward So with Legend, my youngest puppy uh he's 6 months old now, but he'll have his head in the box and I know there's no food in the box because you know, he's done and he has this little wiggle that he'll do uh his head's in the box. He wiggles his body because he's he's kind of telling me, all right, drop food in. But you know, I'm 10 ft away, you know? And so I click and he refuses. Sometimes, you know, he'll even lift his head up real quick and kind of peek at me just above the edge of the box and then stick his head back down again. And I'm click click click click and he ain't he's not moving. So then I just got to go throw food in the box, you know? So Just do the room service, yeah. Yeah. That's fantastic. For me that also was a revelation. You know, small things theoretically it sounds easy to listen and say, all right, click, no food, click, head in the box. But when you see these things in action, you realize that you're actually training a dog. And many people they many many most people I know they don't move away from just food in the box. For them box filling is all about just food in the box and whether can your dog eat the entire bowl of food from the box. So we need to see more videos of people actually taking box work to various other skills. So that's what I keep doing every time I start using a box. I said, okay, what more can I do with the box? Can Can my dog stay in the box while I move my while I move the box all around the place like like how Cooper would do. Of course this is a small dog. He can fit inside the box. But for me

everything is can be a challenge if you accept box as a very cohesive training tool. It's It's It's literally what you can do with the box. It's limitless. So what I just would add would like to add that's why I have the comment shown here is I think the same. I have rather have a dog that's 100% every time obedient to my clicker than to stay in the box than to um have the the heading the the head in the box as self-rewarding behavior. Um So why do I think like that? Because the clicker for me is everything. The clicker is if the dog burns the clicker, I put him immediately away. Because the clicker for me is the most important thing. I use it in bite work, I use it in in obedience and tracking. And when I start um allowing the dog to to ignore my clicker then later it might happen also in other exercises. So I'm a little bit like the same that I rather have a choice clicker than stay in the behavior. I have a question for you then. So if you're if you're um if your clicker then is a release um you know, click and release, but if the if the reward So for you, and I guess this is what you're saying, maybe I'm I'm understanding as I'm talking, but the click is a uh release, but it also means the dog has to come to you to get a reward, right? Okay. So for me it's that's true, but if I click and release and the higher reward is to stay in behavior, then the then I think that's I mean, that could go wrong too, I guess, if you're if you're using um if you're using the clicker as a command both to come to you to get the reward. Um but for me I just click and release. And if your head's still in the box um then the behavior has become the reward for you. And then it's I just So you you mean if you you release him to his self-rewarding behavior to stay in the box. Yeah, I just release him to a reward and if he decides that reward is keeping his head in the box, then that's up to him. But at the same time then you allow the dog to choose what what what reward he has. Yeah, you're right. You're right. Yeah, you're right. Why why can't You can You can have another perspective on this. So, when you click and the dog doesn't release himself from, let's say, the box, take it as a diagnostic tool that in that context, the box is more rewarding than your clicker. So, just just take it as a diagnostic tool and because you can't train a dog to ignore your clicker. When the dog ignores your clicker, he's demonstrating to you that he loves the behavior. So, you got to take what you see and then play with it. So, you can't like you ignore the clicker, I'm going to punish you. No, that's never going to work. You know, you're right there. the clicker

Yeah, I'm sorry. context I'm sorry. There's a lag. So, in the context of a box, maybe my dog will ignore my clicker, but in a context of an open whatever work that I do with him, he will never ignore it. Yeah, and you you always must decide from the situation. Yeah. Since you say that, it's pretty clear to me that whenever I'm dropping food in the box, I'm dropping 10 15 pieces of kibble, you know. But, when I click and he comes to me, he's not getting 10 or 15 pieces of kibble, he's getting four or five. So, that's probably, you know, the case there. Yeah. Yeah, so so so be be communist when you're dropping food in the box. Just one kibble? And then yeah, the jackpot's always used like I love I love I love my dogs just steal food from me. When when I got this [ __ ] she was a very you know, she was she came from a under-socialized family. I bought her at an adult age. So, she was not very driven dog. So, the one of the ways I just made her was I just allowed her to steal food from my pouch. I never trained her for longest a month. She got all her food if she could steal the food from my jacket. Not even a training pouch, because the training pouch was very small. So, I would just wear an old jacket with very big pockets and my I would just ignore my dog when my dog was stealing. So, I I you know, I had to make her bold. Because if she doesn't take food with force, she's never going to do a behavior with equal intensity. Yeah. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah, so. I don't want these weak performances and then even weaker reinforcement acceptance. It has to Everything has to be power power power. Which is why I always prefer power and passion over perfection. I don't care if my heel is not right. But, is my dog really believing that this behavior gets him food? Yeah, I'll take that. So, this is this I think this this pursuit for perfection gets perhaps does not allow you to explore yourself as a trainer because you're like, is that is there a 90° heel? Is it a proper front? If you If you get stuck on this, you're going to miss out on everything else that the dog is offering you. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people may disagree with that. People who do sports there. Yeah, so it it it depends. I mean, I I made that mistake by myself. I I burned the dog um with the too much perfection from the beginning and so the dog lost his fire and it took me a long time to get him back into uh very driving and very hot and soul behaviors, but uh yeah. But, you got to make mistakes to learn from it. Yeah, somebody writes IGP versus artwork. Yeah, that's that's true. That's true. IGP is everything like points points points points points. You

got to have a perfection. Yeah. Okay, there's a comment you posted. What's that? So, this is Calvin's uh what happened to him at gold. So, I guess the same thing happened to him and his dog would not come off of off the track when he clicks. So, Bart instructed him click and then pull the dog off of uh off the track to respond to the click to get the reward and then let him go right back to the track. Was that also not something similar to opposition reflex? Pull him off and then he goes back with with intensity. Sure, yeah, I think so. Yeah. But, I think he forced the dog to come off the track and get the reward so he can release him immediately back to the track because the track tracking was his behavior for the dog. Was the dog's behavior. Yeah, so that's So, I was doing something with one of my pups and I was planning to implement both direct and indirect reward in in tracking. So, here's what I did and I just experimented. Maybe I should go back and see how the behavior is lasting now. So, let's say in a span of 40 ft, I would probably keep 40 kibbles if I were to do that. Yeah. So, on that particular day, I only put about 10 to 12 kibbles in a 40 ft. So, as my dog was searching for the track, I would put food from top. One kibble one kibble indirect reward. So, for me, I was indirect giving him an indirect reward for the behavior of searching. And when he found the kibble, it was a direct reward for him. So, I didn't have to reward him for that. So, I was I was kind of a tap tap tap stop when he finds and then slowly you get an article, then indirect reward. So, I found it very easy to observe my dog. My I would have I I expected my dog to look up. But, he understood because indirect reward I think is one of the fantastic ways to help dog make a correlation between the behavior and what makes the reward happen. So, for me, that was a revelation that you could you could have a dog focus on a track and still drop kibbles on on over his head and the dog knew that I'm dropping kibble. I'm Make no mistake, he knows it. But, he believes that putting his nose on the track is what makes the reward happen. Yeah. So, you can even go ahead and just play with this concepts and these are not concepts anymore. Direct and indirect reward can be implemented in one behavior and you can still you can still get the desired expression of the behavior. So, Derek's on Derek Derek was watching, but his comment's not showing up as his name. So, I think he's I think he's got to go now. So, I'm just letting you know that he's on here. Oh yeah, I can't see his name. Hi, Derek. Yeah. Yeah, his name doesn't show. He did You have to give StreamYard

permission to to show your name in your comments, but anyway. Derek Derek has problem with authority, so he'll never give permission. Uh it's funny. So, what do we have here? I I see hope as an Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Um Yeah. Go ahead. Was that what you had up there? Yeah, this. So, we click the same way. Okay. Sorry. Here we go. My hands are up here. My hands are up here. Uh sorry. Uh I see hope in this as an emotion. Emotions are strong motivators. Hope is often used as a motivator. What's your opinion on dogs having emotions and are there are there emotions you use in your training as a motivator? Yeah, you know, I I I remember this is also a discussion on another platform. I remember this. Uh no, uh I haven't really in in in my in my training experiences, I only focus on hope. Yeah. I only focus on hope. Uh because hope as an emotion can override other emotions. If dog is If If If a dog is insecure and a dog has hope, hope will certainly override insecurity. Yeah. This insecurity can never override hope as long as you understand the balance between hope versus struggle and and how do you keep the the balance imperfect. Yeah. So, so I don't know if that answers the question, but yeah, for me, it's always hope. If I don't If my dogs don't see hope in an exercise, he's not going to even want the reward because he's never going to know what makes the reward happen. Okay. I'd like to see what you guys have to say about that. Emotions are strong motivators. Yeah, so hope is also an emotion, right? Hope is often used as a motivator. What's your opinion on dogs having emotions? So, I don't know what What What other emotions do you really want in training? Do you want I don't Yeah, for me for my goals, I don't think I think hope is the ultimate emotion. I mean, I don't I don't know what else The only other emotions that come to mind would be like fear, anxiety, nervousness. I You know, I don't want that anywhere near my training program. But, It depends what you want to train, I think. Yeah, I think I would have to have a specific scenario to chime in on that. But, I'm with you. I think hope is uh it's it's king as far as training. Yeah. Like like like even for for instance, even protection work. This It's my understanding that all protection work, there is an element of fear in the dogs. Okay, I I hope I'm I'm able to articulate what I what I'm what's going on in my head. So, fear is always an underlying emotion in protection work. It's what the dog does with the fear makes it either a forward forward fighting dog or a retreating dog. So, fear is also an emotion, but when a dog decides to fight his own fears and

fight you back, it has to be hope. Hope that I can kill you today. Hope that I can push you away today. So, hope will always override every other emotion. No hope. So, this is Carabello. He said no hope is powerful. Yeah, that's true. He's always thinking outside the box a little bit. I think that's true. If there's no hope, if you know, if a dog is if if if there's no hope for a dog to run out a door, then he's not going to run out of door, for example. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that that that makes perfect sense. Yeah, that's that's that's a quite interesting answer. Yeah. No hope. Yeah. So, I think that that what that was what he what Tune meant. Um he meant he meant emotions like anger, frustration, fear, anxiety. Uh yes, I I think I think it depends on what your goal for training is. I mean, if you do like shaping behaviors, if you train new behaviors, it's always the best if you have a lot of positive emotions. If you have hope, a lot of hope. But if you let's say you have an aggressive dog, um there is a possibility that you have to train a little bit uh in another way than with hope. So, maybe sometimes you just have to make him hopeless so that he's has no hope in uh yeah, uh being aggressive aggressive on the other dog. Yeah, in behaviors that you don't want, right? Yeah. Look, for instance, emotion like frustration. Uh well, frustration can only build drive, but I'm not sure if frustration actually can get you a desired behavior. Yeah. Because when a dog is frustrated, he may do either of the things. He may he may whip back and maybe bite his own handler, or he may bite the decoy. Yeah. But I'm not sure that I want to use frustration as an element of element of emotion in all my training sessions. No, not in all, but let's let's imagine if you wanted uh train the barking hole with a ball machine that there you use frustration frustration in your training on purpose. So. But when the dog is frustrated for the very first time, and you reward him, you build hope. That's that's actually true. Yeah, so the next time he's not frustrated, the next time he's like hope hope hope. Okay, ball's not coming, frustration frustration frustration. And then you drop then you reinforce the hope. You can't reinforce frustration. You can only reinforce hope. But can can you reinforce fear? Yeah, you can. But are you going to be able to Are you going to be able to get a behavior out of it? No, you can't. So, I think in the dog training scenario, we're only looking at what can you get out of the dog. Yeah. We're not talking about suppressing a dog. We're talking about making a dog powerful. Yeah, you're right.

Yeah, right. We can't see many many names. I can see the Yeah, so right above this video, there's a link to StreamYard. Click on that link and it'll ask you if you're on Facebook, and it'll ask I don't know about other platforms, but it'll ask permission for us to post your comments. And so like you see my comment on here right now. Otherwise, it just looks like nobody knows who's who's uh speaking. So, I mean, a lot of people have posted comments, and I'd like to put them up here, but it you know, this is what it looks like. It just kind of looks you know, nobody knows who's talking. So, um anyway. I have club members and clients who went to famous training works, mostly dogs mostly. Yeah, some some trainers I mean, if they are successful in what they do, that's that's cool, but some things just sound very weird to me, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I saw an interesting comment back Yeah, let's see that. Yeah, that that's very true from Finn. Uh Yes, hope must always outweigh the struggles, so otherwise um the dog will shut down. Yeah, I think that's very important. I think it remains fundamental for any training. And it's not just training uh uh dogs, it's it's also equally in in in in in day-to-day as humans. If I can't instill hope in my employee, I'm not going to be able to retain him as an employee. He must always hope for something better the next month. Hope for a higher salary, hope for better working conditions. Um I I can't think of an everlasting behavior without an element of hope in it. Absolutely. I think man I So, there's behaviors that my dogs uh do that I could go 6 months probably without uh rehearsing it, you know, putting it on cue or anything, and then uh give them a cue word and they'll do it just because there was so much hope in it before that it you know, it's just ingrained in them. It stayed there. You know, kind of built longevity into their understanding, I guess. So, and you know, that stands true with any uh neuroscience, the more emotion that's put into a single event, the longer you will remember it. You know, post-traumatic stress disorder, guys who have been or a car wreck, you know, how many times have you gotten in a car and you don't remember you can't you probably can't tell me 20 times that you've gotten in a car, but you've gotten in a car thousands of times, but that one time you got in a car and got in a wreck, you remember that one. So, that's not hope, but it's still an emotion. Um so, emotion kind of you know, it drives uh just kind of drives things deeper. So. Okay, I'm going to throw in something interesting. Let's let's see if we can make this a discussion.

Do you would you agree that even when we're doing clicker conditioning, which is a classical conditioning pattern, do you think at some stage there is also hope built in that? Would you agree? Or would you always say it's always Hope built into the clicker? Yes, at some stage of the conditioning stage? Before classical conditioning actually sets in? I don't know. My head is Yeah, I don't understand. You might have to explain it to me. Break it down to my level. So, I'm I'm just wondering now that we're talking about hope. Before true classical conditioning sets in in clicker, what's making the dog respond to the clicker even half-heartedly? I understand the true test of a clicker conditioning would be that you probably put an entire bowl of food in front of the dog, and you click and the dog leaves the food and comes back to you. Okay, assuming that to be the ultimate test, and that's when you say classical conditioning has actually set into the clicker. Now your clicker is very powerful and clicker is charged. Sure. We're talking about the initial days of clicking uh clicker conditioning. It there has to be an element of hope, which is why the dog comes back to you. Yeah. Before it's an automatic response, you mean? There has to be a hope built into it. So, so hope as an element of emotion must exist in every aspect, whether it's operant or whether it's even in classical conditioning. Though of course, at some point of time classical conditioning sets in, muscle memory builds in. It's all about reflex. I think that's a good thought to keep in mind when you're conditioning your clicker. Like for example, if you have two dogs, you click with one and he bum rushes you, Venger, my 9-month-old, man, I have to be careful how far he is from me when I click because if he's if he's 5 ft and I click, I'm safe. If he's 30 ft away and I click, I have to really bend my knees, you know, cuz he's coming like a freight train. But so, but it's automatic. It doesn't matter if he's got it doesn't matter what's in front of him, you know, what he has already. He's coming to me. And then he'll turn around and go right back, but my other my uh little 6-month-old, it's not so much. If I click, he'll come, but if he has something that he he's still in that thinking stage about the clicker. It's not automatic. It's not really it's not conditioned, you know, it's still kind of in that learning stage. Um so, it's good to keep in mind to evaluate the power of your clicker because like you said before, it's with the emotion and the power that your dog responds to the clicker, that's the emotion and the power that he's going to put into a behavior. And you can't

expect more than uh you can't expect more out of behavior than you're going to get out of the clicker because you know, ultimately the clicker is the marker of the the ultimate reward. So. I think I think it's the other way around. It's it's the power with which your dog takes the reinforcement is is the power with which your dog perhaps does the behavior. I think it's not really about the marker anymore. So, he must really want the I mean, in in in in training, it's all about your dog must want something, and then you teach him to do something to get that. Pretty much. And and the marker is just a bridge, yeah. So, you just kind of help him understand that this this is what I wanted, you go get your stuff. Yeah. Awesome. So, we have about uh I think we have about 2 minutes left. Yeah, that one went by pretty fast. Yeah, it was just Do we just started an hour just an hour gone? Oh, I'm so sorry. I there's so many comments, I can't see the names. Like yeah. Yeah, that's that's yeah, pretty bad. But there's But maybe uh after the podcast, we just go through the comments, and yeah, maybe we see what else do we have. Because some are really deep. I think I think the whole thing with emotions and uh changing emotions, bad emotions, good emotions, or manipulating emotions is it's a very deep conversation. Yeah. Can I can can I pick that last comment by Iris? Uh she has another perspective. She says I I would uh I would argue that the initial reaction to clicker isn't hope, but curiosity. Yes, uh it can be curiosity in the first instance, but when you reinforce the curiosity, it turns into hope because the dog can't be curious with every click. Would you agree on that? 100% Like yeah, you food Oh, yeah, I get something. So, you come back again. Now it's hope. So, yeah, she's right. Initial reaction No, I never said the initial reaction is hope. When you feed it, you turn it into hope. So, it could be it could be curiosity. Yeah. You feed curiosity. The first thing is you do a click and the dog's wondering oh, what was that? And then you feed him. So, the first yeah, it's it's the first thing is curious and then you build with feeding and together with the the click, you build hope for the click and then for the food. So, yeah, that's Yeah, that's that's she's she's right there. She's right. Well, that's that's what I love about this is opening discussions where people feel, you know, just chime in with their perspectives and you've got to be open about what what people are saying and she's absolutely right. I like that. Which we try to shape into by loading the clicker. Yeah, she's good. Yeah. Dominic, make a video on your YouTube

channel now how to use a clicker. Yeah, so there's a request for you. Yeah, I think I have a a video on how to charge a clicker, but yeah, I have I haven't thought about making a video about using in different ways. So, yeah, I will think about that. Thank you. All right, guys. I think we'll finish up with that. Kashi, thanks for joining in. It was pretty fun. Yeah, thanks for having me on the show. It was an honor and maybe um maybe if you're open to it, we'll have you again later on. I know you're busy. It's 3:30 something in the morning there. So, I'm looking at the clock behind you there, but um I don't need to remind you that you hadn't gotten any sleep and you got court in the morning, but um it was fun though and I think informative. A lot of good stuff in there. So, um Thank you, guys. Thank you. It was wonderful. It was wonderful and everybody who's commented, I'm so sorry I couldn't see your names, but yeah, I'll just go back and I'll acknowledge all of you guys. Yeah, we'll we'll do that. And also I will upload the video tomorrow on my YouTube channel and then I will do some uh around Sorry, I don't know how that is called in English. Uh but then you can switch Uh yeah, I make subjects so you can switch to every part of the discussion and don't have to watch the whole video. So, Nice. All right, guys. Then we won't see you this year again. So, we uh wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. And yeah, in January we will have another guest and stay tuned in the Facebook group to see who we're going to have next in the show. Kashi, thanks for joining. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Yeah, share this video to your to your Facebook pages, too, so that other people You know, there's a lot of good content, but um you know, it's kind of isolated unless we share it with with people and it you know, it just helps expose our our guest and um just helps everybody. So, Yeah, we'll put the guy Kashi's Facebook from his um Yeah, K9 of Kashi, we'll post that here so you can watch his videos and yeah, just follow the guy. He does awesome work. Yeah, we'll post his link. We'll put it in the comments and um so you'll have it there. If you don't watch don't check his stuff out, you're missing out. Thank you. That's a wonderful discussion. Yeah, bye. Thank you, guys. Have a nice day. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.