E197: 페트라 포드(Petra Ford) - "전국 오비디언스 챔피언의 탄생"

afraid of inanimate objects. There was no rhyme or reason. And so things have been super challenging with him, just kind of, you know, figuring out what works for him and figuring out what I could do to make him more confident and to make him comfortable and to help him just kind of be able to deal with all the pressure and stress that's inherent in any competition. What, I guess, do you know about training now that maybe you wish you'd known when you first started? You know, kind of what lessons has Zeal taught you along the way? I wish I'd know everything then that I learned. Probably in the past, I would literally actually say almost like year, year, year, because I was just talking to some friends like that were like, well, how come this year was so different for him? I guess it just took me that long to, you know, put all the pieces together. So pressure. So I figured out, I knew that pressure was a problem for him. Environmental pressure. When he felt pressure, he would just shut down. He couldn't dig and push through. And I knew that. I just didn't know how to help him overcome that. So one of the things I figured out was a whole bunch of games that I do now that teach him to actually push into pressure as a game. And I do it in a way that he has a completely different emotional relationship with it. So that he's, um, when I say we're going to do this game that, um, involves pushing into pressure, it makes him super happy. And he does it really happily. Now that was made a huge difference. That was a big game changer. Um, really pushed him through the last round of this NOC for sure. And then a couple other things I did was, uh, I just kind of changed the way I handle him. I, um, just go into the ring more relaxed with him, less formal. My training partner, I can't take credit for that. My training partner came up with the idea that when we're doing these regionals and tournaments, it's just, they're going in the ring again and again and again with no reinforcement at all. And our dogs, um, I think most dogs, if not all dogs, but for sure I can say our dogs when they, over time don't get reinforcement, they start to get worried. They're not sure if they're correct. Um, or am I doing the right thing? I've never done this before, but now in between, um, so like Sunday morning and Sunday at lunch, I took him into the practice ring, but, um, all I did was just reinforce feed, feed, feed games, games, games, toy, toy, toy, um, heavy reinforcement. And I really think that helped him. So a bunch of things that all just kind of came together.

Yeah. I, and you mentioned your training partner in there. I saw you wrote a huge thank you post up on Facebook. So, um, I wanted to, you know, give you a chance, first of all, do your Academy Award thank yous. Um, but, but, you know, just talk a little bit about the role that your training community has played in kind of helping you get to where you are today. Well, for one, you can't, I mean, I train by myself, I would say a fair amount in the sense that I don't go to a school. I don't have a school. I don't take classes. I don't go to classes. Right. So, um, there are a percentage of my training I do on my own, but you can't just do it all on your own. Um, because well, you, you need a person to help be a distractor. But for me, more importantly is I need a sounding board. I need somebody to help me problem solve. Like my training is all about, um, constantly trying new things and experimenting and figuring things out and you can't do that on your own. So for me, it's super important to have, um, you know, I'm pretty selective about my training partners in the sense that, um, you know, I want them to feel comfortable to tell me their thoughts and opinions to, you know, give me their feedback. And I want people that, um, just enjoy problem solving. Like we love figuring things out. We love experimenting. We love trying different things. I also think things have changed tremendously for me and for my two training partners, because we have so much access now to so much information. I mean, I'm afraid to look and see how many webinars and workshops and things I have in my fancy library and, you know, listening to podcasts and classes and they do that as well. Um, and so we're, I feel like that's to me, that's why I love to train really is the problem solving. I hate, you know, there's never just one way and people that, how'd you train that? I have no idea. Cause it changes every dog every time I play around. So yeah, you can't do it without a training partner, my training partner. And the other thing about training partners, moral support. I mean, God, you know, the truth of the matter is, um, there were many times where I just said, I don't like raw material. I just don't think zeal can do it. Like, and I don't not in a mean way or in a bad way, just like, you know, he's just not a confident, tough dog. Um, and they just never stopped believing that we could figure it out. Um, so even when I was like, yeah, guys, I just don't think he can do it. You know, a week or two later, they're like, all right, come on, we're going to figure this out.

So, uh, yeah, I can't really do it without your training partners and you need training partners that are positive people and just love, you know, positive problem solving, um, looking for answers. Dana says yes. Yeah. Dana, you have a lot to say today. She's not happy. She's not happy that her mother was away without her. Do you, do you have any words of advice maybe for listeners who, um, you know, they have big dreams for themselves and their dogs, but they aren't really sure how to find or build that right circle kind of around themselves? Well, I think, you know, I was just listening. I'm huge. I'm a freak about mental management, positive thinking. That's all. I listened to mountains of things. I meditate. Um, so I was listening to something, a book on the way home. And again, the guy said, like, you just have to be selective. If, if a person is being negative and, um, doesn't have solutions and is always in a negative state of mind, then that's not good. You know, that's not good for you. It's not a healthy relationship. You need to distance yourself from that. Um, so I ha I've learned over time to do that. And eventually the universe does take care of things and it just draws people into your circle, um, that are like-minded. And, um, and then that's who I stick with. You know, I, I stick with those people that are like-minded and that think positive. My circle is much smaller and I think that's fine because it's small, but effective and it's small, but happy and it's, um, small and supportive. So I think that, um, I think a lot of times people are just afraid to step away. Um, I think maybe they're afraid, like if they step away, they'll have no one or they feel bad for the other person. Um, but ultimately if it's not good for you, it's not going to be good for your dog. Um, so if someone walks in cranky or negative, then I'm going to feel it and then my dog's going to feel it. So, uh, I don't know if that was helpful or not, but yeah. Yeah. Um, you mentioned mental management in there. Can you, can you just talk about that a little bit more, kind of what that looks like for you, how that impacted things? Uh, it's huge. It's a major, major factor. When I first went to the NOC with Tyler, um, the year, actually a year to the day before the NOC, they were, someone was giving a seminar at the dog school and it was a, um, Jane Savoy. She's a dressage writer. She wrote a book. So I went out and got the book cause you know, I had to be prepared and I read the book and every chapter was like, um, you shouldn't do this. You should do this instead.

And everything in the book you're not supposed to do. I did. So I was like, Oh boy, I'm in trouble. So I just made a vow that I would work on it every single day. And it took like 10 months before I could do all those things in there. Like, um, not have self doubts, think, you know, positive thoughts, um, set goals and on and on visualize. And my goal for, because for that, because my mental mindset was very bad. I was a very much, um, negative mindset, always self sabotaging, no self-confidence, very insecure. My goal for that first NOC was that I would follow my path that I would think positive, do all the things I've been practicing for those 10 months. That was my goal. And I achieved that goal and winning was actually the by-product of my following through with my mental management plan, if that makes sense. Um, with zeal, um, human and, you know, uh, there've been some life things going on the past few years and I kind of just lost, again, lost my self-confidence and whenever he struggled, I lost confidence in myself. Like maybe I'm not a good enough trainer. Maybe I can't really do this. Maybe I can't figure it out. So, um, believe it or not, the pandemic for me was had a lot of positives. And one of them was my, um, meant spiritual mentor was like, you have to get back to the basics, you know, kind of get back to your roots. So I really started heavily meditating again and working on my mental game, not just my mental game, just mentally bringing myself into a better place. And I kind of got there maybe just about four to six weeks ago, just in time, I guess. Um, so that I, when I got there, I really was in a good place. I wasn't, um, they are saying I have to win. I have to win. I just, you know, I wanted to see, could I keep him happy? Could I keep him in a good mental place? Could I, um, could I carry him through? And I just wanted to see how far I could get him, you know, through the weekend. And then, um, as a by-product, good things happened. Do you feel like you kind of accomplished those goals for yourself over the weekend? I did. Yeah, I did. I'm super happy with that. Um, he was really, really happy. And like, I went back and today and just looked at, you know, the final round videos where by then the dogs are really exhausted. Um, they've gone in the ring so many times. There's so many distractions. Um, there's so much pressure on the rings just in terms of, um, you know, things going on in multiple rings. You can't see it in the videos. Like the announcer's booth was like

right up on the left side. It was crazy. It's just so hard for them. And, um, he looked pretty bouncy and happy and relaxed. So I was super thrilled with that. Um, so yeah, I feel, yeah, I think we did it. I was watching the, uh, the videos you shared and his little tail was like going pretty constantly. Yeah. I mean, I know you mentioned they were very different dogs, but are there also differences just kind of in how you approach training with, with Tyler and with steel? Yeah, well, Tyler, um, you know, actually the first sport I did with him when he was a puppy, I, I still was clicker training him for obedience, but he was also field trained. So he was collar conditioned. Um, he was force fetched the way they do in the field. Um, you know, he, and he was on a prong collar. So I did use, um, especially early on, you know, like, um, they called the motivational pops, but you're popping a dog on the prong collar. He was a pretty spectacular dog that I didn't really over the course of his career need to correct him much or use much compulsion just because he was who he was. Um, but that's how I was training at the time. I mean, we did also use like tugs and toys and stuff, but it was, it was mixed in and there was no question. Um, zeal, forget it. There's no way any of that would have ever worked for him. He would have just, um, dropped dead and died. Like he, he just can't handle it. He's just so sensitive. Um, so he's been just trained, you know, all positive. There's no other choice, which is, which is how I want to train now. Um, but you know, even if I didn't want to, I wouldn't have had a choice. I would have the poor dog. He would have no, thank God. Um, I moved away from that cause he would have never survived. Um, yeah. So there, there, and you know what? I, I feel like, I don't think I've trained any of my dogs, even Zaina now or Zesty the same because I'm constantly trying to come up with better ways and I'm constantly playing around and experimenting. And, um, like I listened to a podcast, it'll give me an idea and I'm like, Oh, I wonder what I can do with that. And then I just start playing with that. And next thing you know, I'm, I'm doing it differently again. Do you know what I'm saying? So, um, and I think everybody should do that. Like I really, I try to encourage my students all the time. Uh, none of them, I don't have a method, you know, I think in traditional obedience, competition obedience, um, a lot of, there are different trainers with different, under different schools and they have methods and all those

methods aren't bad, but they're every dog. And you know, this is the method and this is how we train. And, um, I just think it's so much better if there is not a method. Um, if the method is just figure out what works best for that particular dog. And then even when you have that figured out, keep trying, cause it can always be better because we still, you know, all I know is the more I train, the more I know that I really don't know. Well, I mean, hopefully, you know, as you train, you also become a better trainer. So different things become more effective, even with different dogs, right. Even if you had the same dog to do over again. Um, right. That's true too. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, so you started to get into this a little bit and I'd love to have you just elaborate, um, you know, how are the things that you've learned and some of the things that you're trying and experimenting with, um, impacted kind of your plans with your younger dogs? So all these pressure games that I'm doing now with an adult, you know, a seasoned, very seasoned dog, I started doing them with my puppy. Um, literally when I brought him home seven weeks old, you know, um, threw him on the platform, put enormous high value on the platform and started doing the pressure games with him as a puppy. Um, uh, so a lot, so I'm looking at things now where like typically we'll train a dog and then when a dog is trained, then we'll teach them how to deal with distractions and pressure. Um, I'm doing that now when they're little babies, because then it's just, um, it's not a thing like it's already conditioned in that it's not a big deal. And when they're young, they're so plastic and so malleable that if I just expose them to that, all of that, I think it'll be a lot easier when they're, um, older. And I pretty much take everything I've learned that, um, I wish I had done with the current dog when they were young and do it with my puppies and my younger dogs, um, right away. And then I'll get another puppy in four years and, you know, uh, well, even with these dogs, I'm sure in a three or four years, I'll be like, Oh, I wish I did that when they were young. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, is there, so we talked about the mental management piece, kind of what you did kind of leading up, but in terms of training or in terms of, um, just other preparation, is there anything special that you did leading up to the trial to kind of make sure you and deal both brought your best foot forward? Yeah. Well, I mean, at the NOC, it's, uh, a couple of things. One is that

they're going again and again. And a lot of times they're going in multiple rings, rapid fire, which is very hard for a dog. Um, because people, some people say, well, it's only like three exercises compared to five, but a dog doesn't sit there and go in the ring and count. At least I don't think they do. Um, I think they, once they go into the ring, it's like they cross this barrier and now it smells different. It sounds different. They haven't been in there before. Um, and then, um, it's unique and there are unique pressures in there. And so they go in, they come out and then immediately they go in another ring again and come out. And then within 10, 15 minutes go in another, I think that's super hard. Um, so I'll train that concept with them, um, where, um, you know, I'll set up a ring, go in, do two or three things, come out, lay on your mat for a few minutes, go in again, come out. Um, and then I also try to, um, prove for as many unique things. So because there are so many rings going on simultaneously, for example, um, something the dogs found super challenging, um, at this NOC is the, uh, the go outs with the directed jumping. Um, the picture was very visually challenging for them, but I think even more, uh, what made it even more difficult was they were running towards pressure. So for example, in the final round, you line your dog up, you show them the go out, they look out and against the, um, there's a dog healing against that ring, you know, the back, um, gate. So the dogs look, they see a dog and handler get, they don't want to run towards that. That's not natural. They, you know, they don't want to run at that. Um, conversely, if you're on the other side of the ring, you're, you stand your dog for signals. Now their back is to the ring where their dogs are running towards them at with, towards the go out and towards the glove, you know, that's happening behind them. So I, there are a lot of different scenarios. I try to pull the pieces and just show them to the dog so that they're comfortable with that. We've, I've had scenarios where you're on one ring, your dog's running towards the go out while then the other ring, the dog's running. So they're basically in essence running towards one another, um, things like that. So, um, anything I've experienced the past, I know that Caesar, I can think of, I kind of set those scenarios up and I, I set them up, you know, in, in a way that, um, I don't just do it. I break it down so the dog can be successful. Um, so we do that. Um, honestly, a week before I gave

him a week and a half off where he did nothing. Um, and then like a week or so before I just do very little, just make them right, make them right, make them right. I think mostly that's it, you know, just, uh, and a lot of pressure work, you know, again, positive as a game, but a lot of pressure work because that's a huge component, um, of what they deal with, I think in the ring in general, but for sure at the NOC. So you mentioned that, uh, you know, one of the things that you tried this time that was different, specifically for zeal was in between kind of going to the practice ring to do those food rewards. Uh, do you think that that's something that you'll carry on and do with other dogs? Or do you think that's really a zeal specific strategy? No, uh, I think, uh, no, I think that's something, um, I'm going to start doing with all dogs because it's really just re and rate of reinforcement, right? Um, doesn't matter which dog you have, they're going in the ring. So for instance, take a regional, this is where my friend came up with the idea. Um, so the, it's three days in a row they do, um, utility and open each day. And then, um, usually there are some runoffs. So the dogs, um, so that's a lot, you know, the, each run is like eight to nine minutes. That's a long time for two days in a row where the dogs are performing an enormous chain of exercises with a lot of precision, you know, um, and they had, they're getting no reinforcement. So I think for sure, I'm going to start, um, doing that. Um, yeah, because I think just throwing, then going in and reinforcing those things, I don't, you know, I think people have this like misconception, like, oh, my dog only works for the food or not for the food. It really, I don't think have, has anything to do with that. If you have a well-trained dog, I think it's that the dogs get worried. They get insecure. They're not sure, you know, I'm going, I'm going, I'm going, I'm not getting anything. Am I right? Am I okay? Am I doing it? You know, the right thing. Um, so I think adding that in just build up, builds up their confidence. So absolutely. I would, I'm going to do that with all of my dogs. You know, we talked about kind of leading up what you did. Um, but I'd love to give listeners kind of the bigger picture, you know, a little insight into what really goes into it. When like, he mentioned he's eight, um, what does, you know, a training routine typically look like, or, you know, how long have you and Zeal really been prepping for this? I mean, in my mind, my goal for, you know, for my dogs is to compete at, you know, regionals and

the NOC. That's my, that's my goal when I get a dog. So in my mind from day one, that's what I'm prepping for. So my training sessions are, they vary a lot. Um, because I kind of, uh, I feel that you really have to have a lot of balance in your training. So for example, I'll have one training session where it's all motivation. So for example, throw the dumbbell dog picks it up. Yes. On the way back, I throw the toy or I throw a cookie, like no pressure, just fun, fun, fun, everything run, get rewarded. Um, so that would be what I would call a motivational session. If I have a fully trained dog, another day I might work on chaining where, uh, the dog's just learning that, um, you know, just because you didn't get a reinforcer, just keep going. It's coming. So they understand to do two or three things in a row, then they get a big jackpot. Um, another day I might work on distractions. So I might not, I, on my way to work, I'll stop at a Lowe's or a Home Depot or a parking lot, depending on their level and just work on distraction work. Um, so another day, you know, I might work on skills. So something my dog's weak on, or I'd like to improve or something I'm teaching them. Um, we just work on those pieces. Uh, if I have a different day where I'm training with someone that I'm going to use that person, um, as a judge, right. Or as a distractor or as, um, you know, or, or pretending they're a steward, that kind of thing. Um, so my sessions just vary all the time. I don't. And I think, because I think there are so many different pieces, if you, in order to hit them all, you just have to keep mixing it up and mixing it up. Um, I don't typically train long sessions, hours and hours. Um, I feel like it's quality over quantity. I feel I'm better off just with shorter, really, um, sessions where I know exactly what I want to do. And if my dog does it right, I move on. I don't beat a dead horse. Like if my dog does something right three times in a row, we're done. That's it. I will never do four. Um, you know, if my dog struggles with something, I, we make some progress on it. Done. I'm out. We move on. Um, I don't, you know, believe in doing really long sessions and I usually train zeal. I only need to train three, four days a week. Um, Zaina, I probably train five, maybe sometimes six. That's not as many times as I would want to train a dog. She, um, is a super high drive dog. So she kind of demands that much work. I think four to five days is enough. Are there any, you know, training tips or,

um, pieces of advice that can I jump out at you is something that's really helped kind of throughout your training journey to this day. I will say, um, well, and I, I always go back to this, um, because in essence, like the foundation of my training, um, there are a lot of concepts like one I just mentioned where I'll never do more than three. Correct. Right. Um, a lot of these concepts I got from, um, um, my first field, um, trainer who is actually the guy that bred, um, his dog for me and gave me Tyler as a gift. Um, and he was my first, you know, my mentor and my first real dog sports, which was field training. And he was, um, very different from most field trainers and that he was very, um, he was very kind of scientific and he would, he thought about things all the time. And he just taught me a lot of concepts that to this day carry through to my training. Yeah. To this day. So he would be the first one. And then are you asking, you want like specific things or up to you, you can kind of interpret that how you want to, I think it's all useful info. So, um, I think for me, like I, I fall back a lot on a lot of mental management things, right? Because I think obedience training can be very frustrating. I think, um, I see that a lot cause it's a tough sport. Um, it's really hard. Uh, I think it's super important to read your dog. I can't overemphasize that enough. Um, and that's where people really struggle. Um, they look for a technique, like, how do you teach this first? You do X, then you do Y. Um, I'd love for people to, um, be more excited or interested in learning how to actually read their dog. What is the dog saying to them? What, you know, I think that's super important. Um, John taught me that and some other instructors have taught me that. Um, I think the mental management part for me, like never giving up, you know, um, even sometimes I throw up my hands and a week later I'm like, I'm going to figure that out if it's the last thing I do, you know? Um, so I, I think about a lot of mental management things all the time. So congrats again on the win. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. Before we go, I just want to quickly mention that, um, this will be out Friday. So technically you'll have done it the day before people listen to this, but, um, you're doing a webinar for us this week. I am, you know what? And it's a super fun webinar for me. Um, I hope people are interested in it because, um, again, it kind of hits on that thing of, um, thinking outside the box, being creative,

um, blending things. So it's kind of saying we don't have to throw out all of the training methods, the traditional training methods, cause they weren't all bad, um, and mean, there were a lot of good things there. And, um, we don't have to be afraid of the science like the way I used to be, um, because there's a lot of good information there too. And we can blend the two and then we can even take that and tweak it even more into our own way. Um, and I think a lot of times people are afraid, like they're insecure. They're not sure they don't want to mess it up or they're like, well, I don't know how to do that. And I can't tell you how many times I've done things and they didn't work out and it's okay. You know, so it didn't work. All right. Well, I won't keep doing that. Like I didn't completely mess my dog up, you know, it just didn't work. So we tried something else. Um, and then that didn't work. And, you know, I mean, I've been on that path with zeal. I can tell you how many things I've done that didn't work. No big deal. Just try again. Um, I think I'd rather see somebody try things that don't work, but be, you know, but I I'll be like, yeah, that's it. Keep trying good. Then the person that's just frozen and, you know, just only will, um, wants to be spoon fed instruction because our dogs are fluid. Like they're, I don't know, to me, they're little people in furry bodies. Like they change. Um, so just because, you know, I love when my, I say to my student, Oh, do it this way. And they're like, but last lesson you said, do it that way. I'm like, well, that was then this is now it changed, right? They change like, um, something, sometimes I say, try that and it doesn't work. All right. So now we have to do it different or the dogs change, you know, um, they get more confident or they maybe something confuses them. So you constantly have to be, um, thinking and, um, reading and experimenting and playing around. You can't just follow the recipe. Don't follow the recipe. There isn't a recipe. There's no recipe. Throw the recipe out the window. I dare you. I feel like, I feel like you can say that having accomplished what you've accomplished. I think I've accomplished what I've accomplished because of that. Honestly, I really and honestly do. I can give countless examples and I think that's why, like, I'll give you, here's one example. Um, most people teach a stanchion. Um, and that's how I was taught teacher, go out, run to a stanchion, um, or run to a pole right on the West coast. And, um, well, that's great when the stanchion is in the

middle and your dog can see the stanchion. And that's how I trained Tyler, except that whenever the stanchion wasn't in the middle or he couldn't see it or, or the color was different, he was not sure. Um, so after that I said, I am never teaching a stanchion again. And, um, at the time it was kind of a big deal. I was going against the grain and there was a lot of resistance. Well, let me tell you twice now. Um, the first NOC I went to with zeal, he was, um, he placed third and this time, um, he won it. And both times, um, I think that, uh, the go outs were a big factor. A lot of dogs struggled at the first NOC because there was no center stanchion and it was a debacle. He went straight. Um, and in this NOC, a lot of dogs went, um, did not go straight. They went, you know, way over to the side. And, um, in this case, I think again, it's because I did not teach my dog at stanchion. I just taught them to go straight and I taught them to go into pressure. So I feel like, um, that's just one example of where I think because I'm willing to throw out the rest of my dog, that I've been able to get where I've, you know, achieve what I've achieved. And so for anybody who does want to, um, pick up the webinar, it will not be out super long after this airs. So if you're listening to this, go over, scoop it up if you want it. Um, because it'll probably come down within a day or two of this going up. Uh, all right. Um, thank you so much, Petra. I really appreciate it. I know you just got back and you're presenting this week and I was still like, Hey, can we chat? That's okay. Thank you. No, I'm excited to do it. Um, always excited to talk to you and, uh, grateful to the Fensy, uh, Denise and the school just for just providing such a great environment. I learned from teaching and I learned from all the other, um, instructors. So I'm super happy to do it. Well, thank you again. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fensy Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensy for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.