Michael Ellis on The Difference Between Playing Tug and Teaching Formal Retrieve with Hunting Dogs
Michael EllisLeerburg Dog Training Podcast · 팟캐스트 · 7분
사냥견의 정식 리트리브 훈련은 놀이와 명확히 구분되는 복종 훈련 과정이다. 리트리브 훈련에서 물체는 보상이 아닌 복종 수행의 대상이며, 개는 물체를 부드럽게 입에 물고 유지하는 법을 배워야 한다. 핸들러는 손가락을 직접 활용해 물체의 강도를 조절하며 부드러운 입 모양을 유도한다. 특정 물체를 물었을 때의 강도를 핸들러가 직접 감각적으로 확인하고, 개가 적절한 강도로 물었을 때 보상을 제공함으로써 물건을 짓이기는 행동을 방지한다. 반면, 강제 리트리브(force fetch)는 부정적 강화를 사용하여 개에게 스트레스를 유발하고, 압박을 해소하기 위해 물체를 물게 만드는 방식이다. 이러한 강제적인 훈련은 유전적으로 입질이 강한 개에게는 물체를 으스러뜨리는 부작용을 초래할 수 있다. 핸들러는 개가 신호와 행동의 의미를 먼저 이해하도록 한 뒤, 필요에 따라 부정적 강화를 덧씌우는 방식을 통해 개가 학습에 대한 명확한 인지를 갖게 한다. 스트레스 없는 훈련 환경은 개가 학습 과정에서 도피 행동을 선택할 가능성을 낮추며, 핸들러와 개 사이의 공정성을 확보한다.
Michael Ellis on The Difference Between Playing Tug and Teaching Formal Retrieve with Hunting Dogs
0:00
so for the hunting dog people the I look at the the formal retrieve as different than playing right so the last Labrador that I was that I raised I taught him the tug and when he played with toys he did not have a soft mouth right he crushed them but the way we teach the hold and things in the formal retrieve a formal retrieve and a play retriever two very different things right people look at them the same and I don't use play to create my formal retrieve formal retrieve is obedience performed on an object to get another reward it's not the object as a reward play is the object as a reward my dog's ball or tug is the object of their affection and if I throw it then my dog may get it and bring it back to me for so I can throw it again or tug with them right but that's a game that we play together and I use that game to reinforce behavior so my dog heals or downs or sits I release them and I play this game with you to reward that behavior or reinforce that behavior formal retrieving is a set of obedience operations performed on an object that the dog doesn't consider a toy you learn to take this object in your mouth and hold on to it and when I mark it you really sit and get at some other form of reward and so while I'm teaching the hold that's where I encourage a soft mouth if I want to so for retrievers and things like that I'll frequently teach the initial hold on my hand I teach them to hold my fingers in their mouth instead of a piece of PVC pipe or something like that I'm a hunting dog within there if they bite down hard I make easy and when they hold it nice and soft yes I release them and reward them and I can actually teach that where I can feel the intensity of how hard they're holding on to an object and then I just encourage them to hold things lightly there's also the way I don't for completely free shape or retrieve like some reward based trainers do there's a little bit of obligation on the hold even though I'm using rewards the whole way along meaning I make you hold on to some object in your mouth and because of that obligation there when placing an object in your mouth and making you hold on to it they tend not to hold it hard because they're like I don't want you sticking to that piece of PVC pipe in my mouth and I go yes you do and I put it in there and they hold it for a second I go yes and I don't want to hold it hard because they're like I don't want you sticking to that piece of PVC pipe in my mouth and I go yes you do and I put it in there and they hold it for a second I go yes it's a good thing I don't want you to hold it hard
2:17
because they're like I don't want you sticking that piece of PVC pipe in my mouth and I go yes you do and I put it in there and they hold it for a second I go yes and you get your reward and so in that process they learn to kind of hold things lightly and for a lot of dogs that learn that way are sport dogs where sometimes we want them to firm up their hold like an IGP for instance when a dog holds a dumbbell they want the dog to hold the dumbbell firmly they don't want to see a light hold but a hunting dog would be perfect the dog holds it light lightly in its mouth and doesn't crush your bird right which is the ideal then you're going to encourage that so I just work through that and the dogs they know the difference right my old sport dog pie I used to do stuff with him and if you played tug with him he'd crush stuff but I could have him retrieve an egg and he would pick it up and not break it right because he learned to hold certain things gently in his mouth and others not and I sort of take that tack it's more training time so if you talk to the retriever people and stuff like they're relying a lot on a genetic softly soft mouth because they're force fetching the dogs they're teaching their whole entire retrieve through negative reinforcement and so if you they're applying stress to the dog and the dog shuts off that stress by taking the object in their mouth right so the dogs become a little desperate to get the object in their mouth it's part of the the structure of that and so if I have a dog that genetically has a harder mouth right teaching the retrieve that way when they realize that taking the object in their mouth shuts off the pressure they go and they crush it right and so they really grab it because there's a stress in that but if I teach it the way we teach it then I don't get that and then we talked about it a little bit yesterday and I'll talk about it some today because it's part of what I consider finishing work that I can layer net a forced retrieve a forced fetch ultimately is a behavior that dogs taught to retrieve to purely through negative reinforcement
4:17
right so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah so yeah yeah so yeah so yeah yeah so what take is. They don't know what hold is. They don't know what you're asking them to do. But we set up a set of circumstances where they'll figure it out because they don't have other options. Lots of forced retrieves are done with the dog up on a table. They have a short tie. They can't move anywhere. You're applying pressure to them and there's an object right in front of their mouth. They're like, ah, and you stick it in their mouth and then the pressure stops. They're like, oh, I got to put that thing in my mouth to make this stop. And so the dogs are learning that behavior and the cueing system while under stress and negative reinforcement. There's a big difference between that and teaching a behavior where the dog knows the words, knows the cues, knows the behavior, and then me layering negative reinforcement over it. It's what we were talking about yesterday with the turning, the redirection drills. I could teach my dog the redirection drills for rewards. They know what the cueing system is. I layer the leash in and then I do negative reinforcement stuff. The thing we were talking about doing was electronic collar. I turn on the collar. I say, let's go. They turn and it shuts off, but they already know what that is, right? And it's a really different mindset for the dog. You get some of the benefits because there are benefits to behaviors learned with negative reinforcement. There's a reason people like it, right? There's a business-like work ethic there. The dog says, like, I have to do this and they get the idea that they need to do this right from the beginning. And so there are some benefits to that work. It is still reinforcement.
6:13
We talked about two forms of reinforcement yesterday, but there's also fallout from it. There's stress-related stuff. There's the chance that the dog might escape into some other behavior that we don't like, right? And if they are successful escaping in some other way, they'll do that. That behavior has been reinforced. There's a lot of things about that. And we could argue there's a kind of fairness component too, right? None of us want to learn a brand new behavior while put under stress. It would be nicer if somebody explained to us what's expected of us before they put us under stress, right? And so I like to do the same thing for dogs if possible. And so there's a lot of reasons that you might look at it.