Live interview - Kaizen K9

[00:00] All right, I'll just hit go live. Okay. We're good? Yeah. All right. Bart and Michael Bellen, welcome. [00:26] Thanks very much from Australia for giving us your time so generously. I know you're really busy running your business, all of your businesses. You've got a lot on. So I really appreciate you giving us your time. And I'm just going to hand over to you now so you can tell us why we're here and what we're here to discuss today. Well. Hey, everybody. [00:51] Thanks, Ben. No worries. Normally, we are already asleep like farmers do. And we wake up with the chicken and we go sleep with the chickens. Yes. So due to you, we pushed our sleep back. Yeah. And by the way, today, Sunday, we did work the whole day, catching up phones, emails, hosing fires, and so on and so on. It's about five in the morning. [01:17] You know, normal Sunday work. Then I think a little bit of topics were bite work, the release of the new product. And then I must cheat a little bit. How was the third? Pedestals. Oh, yeah. Pedestals. It's a little bit longer. We will see that. Yeah. You kick off. What do we start with? Well, why don't we talk about the future of bite sports and obviously that video that came out recently and how that's likely to affect things that already resulted in. [01:48] I think, are they banned in that country already now or are they just trying to ban it? Well, let's phrase it together. Yeah. About, I think, three weeks ago, there was a video released by the extreme animal welfare people from Finland about a compilation of pictures that they were taking during two years with hidden cameras from the top people. [02:20] And of course, if you cut things together out of context, it can be a little bit emotional. Can I give an example? We posted just today or yesterday a video of a puppy that's about three or four months old that's severely dog aggressive. And the handler just holds the dog and they bring a bitch in. [02:49] Nanny. A nanny. Yes. And the bitch watches the puppy and is quite neutral. But then all of a sudden it's pressure. The puppy a little bit goes on his back and then is a little bit submissive at first and then works itself out and starts to be a little bit respectful. And the puppy was not hurt.

[03:15] There was no problem. We posted that video quite a few days ago. Just that. Then we said, we posted it again and we said, is this mother, is this bitch acting okay? Does anybody have a problem with that? And if we had caught just the moment when that dog was on top of the puppy, just those two seconds, would we have a different impression from that video? [03:46] Would we now, when we look at it, would we say, that's ghastly? And then the second question is, is if that bitch isn't there, what if a person does the same thing, but with equal restraint? Which we do, by the way. Which we do. Then what if we took a video of that? Would people approve of it if they saw it in context? Or would they disapprove of it because it's a little bit racist? [04:15] It's okay if the dog does it, but if a person does it, it's not okay. And if we're not okay to do it, should we kill puppies like that? Or should we just let them be like that? Or I want to know what those people who are so up in arms, I want to know what they think should be done. Because really, it was a two-second thing. The puppy was not hurt. [04:41] The job was done, like the job must be done. Right. And it happens all the time. It's like even babies don't touch hot water. They burn themselves a little bit. It's a little bit too hot. Not even burn themselves. They touch hot water and they reach their hand back and they don't like it anymore. So having a little bit of discomfort for a second to learn something is absolutely known in nature. [05:09] Yeah. To go back to that video then, which is a compilation where the first action that we don't like is hidden cameras. We don't like that. So sneakily, they enter a property of somebody and put cameras. Private property. Private property. And then everybody that was there received a police investigation afterwards. [05:34] They never show the good actions. That's the problem. And if we put a camera on whoever with a dog, there is always one or two seconds in a month that could be questionable and a little bit out of context, which is typically. And of course, those animal welfare actions have one cause. [06:01] It means cancel a group of people for their own profit and demanding money for that. And that's what the whole world must be aware of. We are not against animal welfare. Not at all. But there is a limit. And what people must understand is that certain types of dogs needs a little bit action also. I mean, with action. If you see young puppies playing, they fight a lot.

[06:28] And in the fight, there is a ritual of the loser and the winner. And the loser does a tap off. What you can see in that video that the little pup does, surrendering. And then the other party, the winning party, like the bitch was, they immediately stop that assault. And then it's peace. And we smoke the pipe of happiness again. Or the pipe of peace, what we call. And that's important to understand. [06:55] Now, we try since very long time to introduce the animal welfare law in training. It's not easy. Because Michael and I, we did feel already since 10 years that this will and had to come. And of course, instead of going in dialogues, they always choose the very way of explosive. [07:21] Provocative mob violence. Mob violence for their cause. And that there is a lot of people in deep problems. They don't care. And by deep problems, I mean the family is under siege. Their private life is under siege. There is investigations on those people going on. And nobody shows the pictures when they walk their dogs in the morning, when they brush their dogs. And so on, and so on, and so on. [07:46] So, it's a little bit sad to see that. But in addition to that, we know since 20 years that there is a hidden agenda from a certain group of people. No more bite sports. No more. Because this group knows exactly that when a dog is really biting, the bite is the biggest self-rewarding action. [08:12] That you cannot control with positive reinforcement only. It's impossible. They know that. What they don't know is that this type of dogs have endorphins and that they love a little bit pressure also. This is why we did select them for years for. Because they are very tough. They like and have no problems with heat. They like and have no problems with rain, with cold. [08:38] They have no problems with opposition. It's for them a ritual game. And that's what people don't grab. And of course, we dog trainers must do everything to stay in that legal framework. And that legal framework is what we did not see in that video. Nobody tells us what the law says. We know exactly what the law says. The law says it is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain or to make a dog suffer.

[09:10] Normally, they speak about animals. And when it's about what we call consumption animals, the rules and the interpretations are the same. In our case, for all of Europe. For the dog, which do fall under the pet industry, every country and every region has their own interpretation of that law. But that animal welfare, I would say more that extreme animal welfare organization, PIDA, has the hidden agenda. [09:43] No more. It's a hidden agenda. No more bite work with dogs. And the next step is no more dogs. Dogs with excitement. No more dogs that you can excite with the ball or with the passion or with the drive. Which, by the way, we need in every job. A dog, a service dog, a scent work dog, whatever dog. They need that ignition, the desire to search something or to do something. [10:11] That's why they have been selected for years. So, that's the last on their agenda. And, of course, all the little battles to go there were, in the old days, no more stick or softer stick. And then, the next steps were no more choke color, no more pinch color, no more e-color. And it goes further and further. And then, the biggest problem is that all the Bitesport organizations, whatever their name is, they are not prepared for this, I wouldn't say fight, but they are not prepared to be attacked. [10:46] For this confrontation. They are not prepared. They don't know how to react. And their reaction is always, we put down the A-frame. We make it lower. We make the jumps lower. We make everything easier. Okay, we will take away the stick, like they did three years ago on the World Championships in Austria. The helper had the stick, but it is just fake a little bit. We call that capoeira. But it means that we need a lobby that stands up and tells what we do, how we do, in the legal framework. [11:18] That means that, and that's what Michael and I try to tell the whole world, you must prepare a working dog for the inevitable correction that will come one day when you go to the real world of distractions. And then, the preparation is, we call that, we learn the dogs, the horse language, the tactile command of the leashes, the tactile command of pressure, the tactile command of the pinch collar, whatever your tool is with whom you give pressure.

[11:50] And we learn the animals to obey and to hear it. It's a type of hearing aid. And that's what the whole world must understand that we must do. And yes, when a dog bites a human being, the law tells us we must inflict pain because that's a valid reason where you must inflict pain to save a human being from the bite from an animal. And if you don't save that human being, even a scumbag, there can be a charge against you because you did not do the necessary to help a human being. [12:26] And then there is another reason why and when you must imply pain to the dog is when you can save his life. You must inflict pain wherefrom suffering could follow. So, we must better understand all that legal framework. Now, I was just going to say, if a dog is jumping out a window, you can break his leg, catching him to pull him back in. Yeah. And that's legal. That's a valid reason. That's a valid reason. [12:52] You saved his life. So, the whole bite work is a very problematic thing. It means, and that's true, in training, when you do bite work on the sleeve, on a helper that is protected, you are not allowed to inflict pain. You are not. You are not allowed to inflict pain to have a better sit, a better down. You are not. What you are allowed is give a tactile command that the animal understands well, like horses do. [13:22] And that's why we hammer so on that legal framework, understand what you do. But nobody tells people this. Nobody. And then, the big federations use positive reinforcement as an advertising tool to train animals. And everybody understands that positive reinforcement is rewarding. They forget the other 90%, which is, what do we do when the dog does not do what he can do very well? [13:52] Well, then you must correct your dog in the system that your dog is trained. And if your dog is trained with existential food as the reward, by not giving that existential food, you can punish the dog. But that they don't tell you. And that can be a very good correction. If you train a dog to do that, the problem is people are in the advertising model. [14:19] They don't do it. And after two, three years, by following what big shots and what the advertising tells them to do, they see, huh, it doesn't work. And then they go to a seminar where there is you or me or somebody else. Michael and I, we don't do it anymore. And then they show you their problem. Well, the only thing you can do at that moment is implement a stimulus that they did never feel before.

[14:45] And then you go to Popone, which we don't like. And you, the person that leads the seminar, you are the butcher of the day. And that's the reason why we went out of that scenario because, and that happens in Finland also. So people stay on the marketing philosophy that they have been lied with, told with, because a lot of them drink water and preach water. [15:12] But behind the corner, they drink wine. So, and that's what we try to tell. So we must tell the whole world, that's how dog training is. And you must understand every system. And in every system that is good, there is consequences for doing. And there is consequences for not doing when the dog knows very well how to do. [15:38] And that's it. And the big federations never did tell that. Big federations always sell a membership card. They never tell people, you must first follow two days of lessons that you know the basics of training. And then you can apply to pay your membership. But because they all need money, they try to sell as much membership cards as possible, which we understand. So there is a financial need. [16:04] But it's a very difficult and complex subject. Yeah. And you said something, because in the early discussion, if I understand well, in Perth, police and army must have an e-collar and maybe a pinch collar on the dog. Or did we understand that wrong, Ben? No. Yeah. So I work with the police dogs, obviously. And our standard in Perth, yeah, in Perth, Western Australia. [16:34] And our police dogs must wear an electric collar when they're deployed. And you know why? Because I can tell you why. Yeah. Because you can train 1 million pictures in training where the dog and the handler and everybody is well equipped. So there is no problem for a real bite. But when the real bite comes, 30% will not bite. [16:59] And then you have a problem. And the 60% that will bite will not out. And now you also have a problem. Because now you must help. Of course. Because now you must help that human being, even that bad guy. You must help. You must do the best you can to make your dog out. And that is not easy. And then those animals, once they have bitten, it tastes well.

[17:25] And then once for the second. And so on. And so on. We know that. And that's why I think that what you guys did in Perth was very intelligent. That you have your security with you for the day that you are a problem. Or for the moment that a problem occurs that you could not train. And that's why we have insurance in our car. Not to make 50 times a day an accident. But if once every four or five years we make an accident, we are covered. [17:53] The money covers it. I mean. And if your hearing aid works well, why take it out? Yeah. That's right. And that's how we look at it. The police dogs, we have a duty of care. They're not there to do harm. They're not there to injure people. They're there to just apprehend people. So they've got to be very careful with their use of force. It can't be excessive. So once the offender's been apprehended, they remove the dogs as quick as they can. [18:22] And our dogs all let go. They're very well trained. But you're right. It's like you don't go driving without your seatbelt on. So if there's an emergency, no matter what, we can get our dogs back. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, it means that that video was very provocative. And it was the typically cancer culture video. Yeah. Cancel a group to make profit for your extreme PIDA organization. [18:51] And now comes another thing. Because the dogs and everybody that was involved there, it doesn't look too good. And that's why Michael and I did try point by point in that video, try to explain a little bit what did happen there. And also Michael did show a video from three young dogs that we train in a box, what we call the unforced force fetch, where the dog wants to take the pipe to get the existential food. [19:23] So, and then we have two behaviors under command. And then we have two behaviors under the command, holding the pipe and giving the pipe. And hold becomes later in higher drives, bite. And give becomes later in higher drives out. So, we show the progression and then we show the progression with our older dog Ragnar in the box, where the helper is behind us making agitations, movement.

[19:51] And then we show the progression and then we show the progression and then the problem. And then we show the progression and then we show the progression and then we show the progression and then we show the progression. And then the comment that they give to you, you cannot believe Ben. It's like, huh? Are we in another world or what? Well, when we started a little bit talking about this topic and about the finished video, the animal rights people came after us. They posted that picture on their page and were inciting a little bit of a vilification of us. [20:23] Yeah. So, some of the comments that I read that I translated were, you know, quite, I can't bear to watch the whole thing. It's disgusting. So, I mean. Of your dog, of your dog holding a pipe and then biting. Yes. Yes. And doing it. It was cruel for them. And with all ears up the whole time, listening perfectly, no problems, nothing. Perfect execution. [20:49] It's strange. And the thing is, is that I think part of it is that some of those people are not familiar with working dogs. They don't understand that we need to have dogs with strong character in bloodlines so that we can use them in police work, so that we can use them in military work, that we need those kind of dogs, that we need them to search for bombs. [21:15] We need them to search for dope. And we need dogs that have real passion and drive. And I think that the pet people, who I think make up a large percentage of the, I will put in quotes, animal rights, because I really don't think they're animal rights. I think they just have an agenda, but they join those organizations to feel important. But I don't think they realize the necessity of that and that those dogs are not like little pet dogs. [21:48] A working line shepherd is not the same as a show line shepherd. Yeah. If you ask somebody who knows, they will tell you that it's not the same. Yeah. What do you guys say to that positive only or force-free community that would argue that trainers who resort to corrections or the use of aversives are lazy [22:18] and they don't want to put in the hard work of that force-free can do based on science to get the same result? That's what they say. What do you guys say to that? Well, it's proven that if you only train your dog with positive reinforcement, you need between 4,000 and 6,000 repetitions per exercise to be about sure that your dog will do it when you ask it,

[22:46] when the distraction is not too strong. With negative reinforcement, you need between 400 and 600 repetitions. So they are right, it goes faster with negative reinforcement. But the reason why it goes faster with negative reinforcement is because when pressure stops, the behavior is the reward in negative reinforcement. [23:12] Whereas in positive reinforcement, the behavior is a bridge to get the click, which is a bridge to get the original reinforcer. And that's why it takes much, much, much longer. And that what they forget to say is that when good positive training really works with food, for example, it is when what you put in the mouth, what you add, positive stands for add in the mouth, [23:41] takes away the discomfort of hunger in the stomach. Taking away discomfort is by excess the definition of negative reinforcement. So good positive training only works well if it's done like negative reinforcement. If it is negative reinforcement. And when it's not done well, it's not negative reinforcement and it will work in three times. Not today, not tomorrow, never. [24:07] And then, of course, you maybe have the happy dog, but the happy dog that can be dangerous because that animal can be happy, but not always listening. Well, it can get run over by a car. It can kill another animal. Or that dog is not used to say, to receive the word no or to feel, hey, now it's enough. And then they start to revolt because they did not learn hierarchy and so on and so on. So, you know, then it is very, very complicated to explain animal lovers, extreme dog lovers, [24:40] because to train a dog, you must not be blinded by love. You must be very realistic and do your job as an educator. And we are not against positive reinforcement. We are not against that. We use it a lot. We use it every day. But it is the whole four quadrants that we use. And that's important. So, to answer, negative reinforcement goes faster. [25:05] And there is another reason why it goes faster. It is scientifically proven. And you can read that in the Talent Code, the book from what is Mr. Coyle. There is a, they speak about myoline. And myoline is the type of fluid that is formed around the synapse. And the synapse is where the nerve and the muscle comes together. In critical situations, unpleasant situations,

[25:32] the synapse produces much more myoline so that the triggering goes faster. And the triggering means the learning process, faster reflex response, and so on, and so on. So, there is a scientific proof for that. So, it's, if you do a little bit research, it's fantastic. And then, another thing that I should like to explain with Michael is, due to the modern tendency from, [25:59] you must train the dog only positive, they have breeded a type of dogs, what we call the dopamine junkies. And the dopamine junkies, they are born with tail up and very ratty and very nervy little dogs. And in the sports, they want to see that picture. But before they know, they have a nervy dog instead of a dog with drive. Because a dog with drive can, can you show her? [26:26] That's a dog with drive. And Michael will show that little dog. A good dog must be able to switch off. Do you see her, Ben, on her little part? Oh, yeah, there she is. Totally, totally smart. So, a good dog must have a switch off. Yes. And when it's work time, boom, they explode. That's a working dog. A working dog must have that switch on and that switch off. [26:52] The danger from what they request from people today is that all those good, stable dogs are out-selected. And within this and 10 years, you don't have them anymore. So, people always exaggerate in a direction to go. So, they know that today we need those dogs that have the dopamine, which is okay. But extreme, they start extreme breathing on that. [27:18] And then instead of have drive, they have nerves. And that's no good. So, there is no more middle of the road. And there is nobody that explains that to people. So, I think that it's very strong to know that we must, all people that like working dogs and working dogs with biting, biting his prey, and that's why we believe, Michael and I are very firm believers for prey bite. [27:44] And that aggression comes spontaneously when a dog is frustrated by not getting the prey. It is a tendency today that people go very fast to protection work, real protection without sleeves. And you must do that in your job, that the dog is not too much addicted to the sleeves. And, but this type of work should not be done by normal people.

[28:13] Normal people should take and keep their hands away and stay in prey. That's already difficult enough. That's why, for example, in the old Belgian ring sport, all the biting places where the dog had to bite, there was jute, a jute sleeve, and on the legs, left and right, jute sleeves. And the best bite was on those spots, which are very protected, very protected for the helper. [28:41] And there were eventual accidents. It's on non-vital places. And we always protected our game by saying, well, nobody in the streets wear a jute jacket. Nobody. And when we do muzzle work, at the inside of the muzzle, we put a little prey bite piece that the dogs that don't hit in men aggression, they hit in, I want to get my prey, [29:10] and then it becomes prey aggression. It's a very interesting buildup that can be done very well. But, you know, most people that do the bite sports is like, I did start in bite sports. I call it chicka chicka chaka. We want to see a lot of motions and a lot of movements. And at the end, the biting was the most important part, but there was no outing. [29:36] And then out became a fight to get the dog out. And it's very, very difficult. Once a dog did taste from the liberty of not have to out, you are in trouble as a trainer. That's why Michael and I, we preach, the day he bites, opposite behavior is the day he outs. The day he sits, opposite behavior, down, stand still. The day you have a send away is the day you have a recall. [30:02] And so on, and so on. Equally important. Yeah. And the foundation is equal on both sides. We have, we had a lot of clients where we, when I do my puppy class in particular, that have Googled lots of dog training because everyone gets a puppy and they jump on Google and they Google dog training. And they're guilted and made to feel bad to tell their puppies, no, the puppies bite them. [30:31] They don't want to say no. They turn their back and they click and shriek or they distract with the toy. And especially now, malamires are becoming a lot more popular due to, you know. That's a little bit. Now we've, well, we are, we're getting, we're getting five, six month old malamires that are biting their owners and they're bleeding everywhere. And they're saying, well, I've tried all the treats and I've tried everything, but nothing seems to be working.

[30:56] And they're too scared to actually say no. Have you, have you guys run into that sort of stuff? Of course. Of course. And then the only answer you must give is show that little video from the mother that controls the behavior of the pup. It was not the mother. It was the nanny. Yeah. Or you show the video from the miracle worker where the nanny controls daughter that is half deaf. [31:21] And not half deaf. Deaf and not blind. Yeah. Blind and deaf. And at the table, there is a little struggle. You remember? Yeah, I do. And that's, it looks brutal, but it's not brutal. The nanny holds that little girl until the little girl is calm. Pressure stops. The first reward for negative reinforcement. And then the nanny gives the food, which we call an extra positive. [31:46] Yeah. That's the picture you must show them. And also, it's much easier when they're young and when they're little to put a little hierarchy on them to get them to stop. It's quite gentle. If you wait until they're six months or 12 months old, it's a lot harder. If a child goes to the hairdresser and it sits in the chair of the hairdresser and the child moves too much, the hairdresser with pressure calms down the child. [32:13] And when the child is calm, they continue working. There's nothing brutal to that. It's clear. It's international. And yes, there is a little bit hierarchy and nothing wrong to that. And when the hairdresser wants the kid to move his head, they press release. Or they even do it to adults. Of course. The point is, I think a lot of people misconstrue negative reinforcement. They don't understand it. [32:38] And I think a lot of education is needed to explain what we do, people who are training in higher level dog training. What we do see has been the hardest thing to explain also in the schools we give is negative reinforcement. And we always start with the seat belt that starts beeping when you don't buckle up. [33:04] It's a nagging sound that you want to switch off by buckling up and continue your drive. That's the idea. The car industry wants to train people with the nagging sound. And it is not aversive because otherwise people would run out of the car and never come in the car again. But there are different types of dogs that need different kinds of negative reinforcements. Because, for example, Bart responds to that sound in the car to put the seat belt on.

[33:34] Yes. But I don't. What I respond to is Bart yelling at me, put your seat belt on. It's a little bit higher. Higher negative reinforcement. But you see, it's not the same for everybody. Yeah. Some people don't need a lot. Some other people need more for the same result. And that's what we call dosation. If everybody was unique in life, well, life would be boring. [34:01] With dogs, it's the same. There is two categories. There is that big pet industry, which is very needed. And then there is the working dog industry, which must also be there. And then what those two groups must accept is that we speak about totally different dogs. Yeah. Different temperaments. Right. And you must understand that. And Michael and I, we accept that there is people with little dogs on their laps with five jackets and six shoes. [34:32] And it's the same with running thoroughbreds. Thoroughbreds that are racing versus a school horse for little children. They're totally different kinds of horses. Yeah. Do you think it's more of a marketing thing where the use of only positive reinforcement, you can't actually see the bad results of that immediately? [35:01] There's nothing evident straight away. It's a slow burn. It gradually creeps in and you end up with a bully dog that's aggressive. And you created it, but you did so slowly you didn't notice. Whereas if you're using some sort of aversives, if you make a mistake or even when you don't make a mistake, sometimes it doesn't look good. Like the video of the negative reinforcements. Negative reinforcement. Yeah. [35:27] And it doesn't look great. And if you make a mistake, the results are immediate and they don't look good. Whereas positive reinforcement, to me, the mistake happens over a long period of time and no one really sees it straight away. So you never look bad. It's easier to sell. Well, it's certainly a good marketing strategy. We agree on that. [35:53] And we think that whatever the system is, when it's well done, it will be quite successful. And when it's not well done, you create a cacophony that you cannot imagine in all this. That's why our profession is a profession. And that's why people seek for professional help. And if the professional help is whatever it is and it works, it works. And it's like we, we are looking for somebody to fix our gutters.

[36:23] And there is three jokers that come and they don't fix it. And then there is a fourth one that come. And now we think bloody hell, why didn't we call that person immediately? I think that's a little bit in every profession. And today it's true that sometimes people with very flashy websites and nice stories and only positive, they have the emotions and they will have the business. [36:50] And then you will have what we call the problem dogs that they cannot solve or that they did blow up. You know, it's always the same. Yeah. Hey, what can you tell me about these pedestals? A few people have been asking about these pedestals. Can you guys tell me? Last September, I posted a bunch of dogs on pedestals and got a huge backlash about it. [37:19] And we tried to answer every person and explain about it. I'm not sure what the whole problem was. But again, I think it's a little bit the AR team that is very upset about it, thinking that the dogs are strangled onto the pedestals or there's some kind of abuse going on. And you have to understand the pedestals. [37:45] The reason why we like them is number one, you can take a very small puppy and teach them in one day to stay on that pedestal. With positive. With positive only. You can use just positive. It's so easy. Now, to teach a dog to get on a mat and stay there is a little bit harder. But to teach them to go on the pedestal is so easy. You just feed them on the pedestal a few times and they stay up there. [38:14] Simple. When the dogs get older, we brush them on there. We do their nails on there. We put dogs up there when we're setting up equipment. And again, you don't have to. The dogs can be young and not know very much. And it's very safe. And it's a relaxing place for them. We like it very much because for us, it's a place to be. [38:41] We make the grooming there. We touch the dogs. If we back tie them, we are sure that they cannot have a fight because we always receive problem dogs. And a fight, they always start when you're a little bit away. Or even if like I had a problem with the dog getting caught in a little bit of barbed wire. And I was able to put him on the pedestal, tie him up and safely examine him without us getting bitten in a place where he was comfortable.

[39:11] So we just put him on the pedestal, had one person give him food. And the other person checked out their legs and they were tied up. So in case something happened, it's safe. And of course, Ben, what you must understand is you can respond in two ways on the bashing culture. You shut your mouth and you continue. You continue. You try like we do to answer people. And then our answers and our politeness become so intriguing that they block you. [39:42] They don't want to know it anymore. Well, I mean, and we stay very decent. And then other people jump in and other people jump in. And then the people that are attacking you, they go in the defensive. And that's a position that they are not used because the seagulls, it's what they are. It's a minority, very vocal. They make so much sound and they drop a lot of shit and poop. And then they fly away. [40:08] And then the silent minority is there with the dirt and the stinky pile. And that must stop. So we are a lot of people. And I have no problem discussing it with them. But they need to make an argument that makes sense. They need to make a statement that you can qualify, that you can validate, not just a bunch of emotions that are subjective adjectives. [40:35] That's not a statement that you can discuss. Now, in all that thing with that Finland video and that now come, I think three or four days ago on Michael's private wall, Facebook wall, there was a letter from Esfau Germany, the big federation Germany, to explain on our wall why they, and now comes the name, the name of that lady. [41:04] Because Facebook did stop Michael for, what was it, for answering her, for giving her name. And now Esfau is giving her name and email address, et cetera, et cetera. We're going to answer very carefully and very well that letter from Esfau. Because if they post it on our wall, we're going to answer it. [41:29] But in our way, we never go over one night of ice. And if they want to pick the side of the animal welfare extremist, that's their right. But then they will lose a lot of very good dog people that also wants the best for their dogs. So they are on a very critical step in the evolution where they must pick. Do we pick for the seagirls that will never pay the fee of membership?

[42:00] Or must we get away from that hard to control group of bite work people? Because we don't know and we don't understand what they do. But if you get away from those people, then you're going to have to start, it's going to get smaller and smaller what they're going to allow. So the problem from all the dog people today is we are tribals. We are tribes. And it always remembers us the movie from that. [42:26] What is the Scottish actor? Braveheart. And the movie is Braveheart with? Mel Gibson. Mel Gibson. Where Mel Gibson is the guy that tried to unite it, make the clans stick together to be bigger than the king of England. And then you see, yes, but, and I have a little bit profit there and a little bit profit there. And then the king of England gives behind the screens a little bit ground. [42:55] And then they change against the mentality. That's a little bit the problem of all the tribes of the dog federations. There is no united. It's too much. German Shepherd, Mullinox, Boxer, Rottweiler, Rieserschnauser, Dobermann, all separate groups. And then all the different sports. And then they have a show line and a working line. And they do all different sports. We are so divided. And then every sport has a bunch of different clubs [43:21] and they're all fighting with each other. And if they would all stand together, they would all stand together in a united flag. Right. A flag with all the breeds of all the dogs. Yeah. The working bloodlines. It's a new flag. That would be a very, very strong thing. But that's what we want. That's why we are a little bit sticking our necks out here is because we want to keep those bloodlines. [43:46] We want to keep people able to train their dogs. We want to keep police being able to have biting dogs. We want military to have biting dogs. We want people to be able to do the sports that they love. And we want... Today, Ben, we have the email. Because Michael and I, we have one big, big, big... We make one big mistake. We are much too open on social media. That means that everybody that wants to speak with us can chat with us. [44:13] And they write us emails. They send us movies. You cannot believe what a job that is. So there is one day where we must pick our email. And that is very soon because it's an overwhelming job. Can't answer all... Long story short, today there is an email very long from a gentleman that has a German Shepherd. That German Shepherd is now one year and three months old. And he did do everything and perfect obedience and everything perfect.

[44:40] But the dog slowly shows aggression towards his girlfriend. His girlfriend's dog. The girlfriend's dog. And now we say, well, dogs are dogs. What you must understand is that a dog also has physical needs. And physical needs can be running, can be bite work, getting away from aggression, but in a controlled way. All things like that. And then... Sounds like a nice German Shepherd that he has. Like a working line Shepherd. [45:06] And challenge the brain of a dog. So you must challenge the dogs physically. And you must challenge the brain of a dog. But you know, we cannot help the whole world. It's impossible. A lot of people think the NAPO post system is all about behaviors and quadrants. But you guys actually do a whole lot about it with regards to the relationship with the dog, don't you? Yes, it's so much. [45:34] It's a lifestyle. There is so much freedom where we learn dogs that they are in control of what happens. Of course, we manipulate everything that they think that they're in control. And then because they think they are in control, they become very strong because we want working dogs. But we know that they will become very strong. So we introduce the pressure points very early. [45:59] We drag them around. We learn them that when they get food, we give more food and more food and more food. That when we come close, we are not competitors on their food, neither on their prey. That when we come there is to give more and so on and so on. It's a whole philosophy. So you're right. It's not just those five minutes of training that are important. And we spend a lot of time exercising them, brushing them, spending time with them, making a bond with them. [46:27] And as you see, we have a dog still sleeping here with a ball between her. An example, that little doggy. Yeah. She has everything. It's a very nice, good pet. I always say that's top three of the dogs I ever had in my life and had good dogs. The top three is a certain black dog, Thor. Same type as this little lady. [46:54] And another dog, Flip. And Flip was a dog that we did sell to a friend that did develop the dog trophy. And that dog became twice DVG chump. But it's the same type of dogs. Very nice to people. Very open. And they manipulate people. Yes. And I was chumped with two other dogs. But they are not in my top three list. Because they were a pain in the neck to live with.

[47:20] Good to work. Good to work. But a pain in the neck. Because they were extreme dogs. And due to the training they received, well, they had a decent life. Because that's what people don't understand. Those dogs, their love for their jobs. But you must continuously keep an eye on them. Where here, those dogs learn to control themselves. That's the whole point. She sleeps in our cabin with us every night. So she has a very... [47:47] Yeah. So it's that controlled freedom where they control themselves. And we like a dog to do actions where the brain slowly makes that advantage, disadvantage, balance. And then slowly they understand their advantage. And because they understand their advantage to do it faster and faster and faster. [48:13] And at the end, it looks like the dogs are born with the skill of sit down, stand still, healing, retrieving. Which is not... Reflexes. Reflex response. Reflex response. It's a slow process. They are not born like that. And she has a lot already. A lot of behaviors already. Completely in reflex response. You think she was born like that. What we like to do at Ben is what we call chunking. We learn the dog's little alphabet. [48:40] A, B, C, D, C. In a game. Always games. We teach almost everything we teach. We teach it in a game. And is it a game with pressure sometimes? Yes. Of course. But it's still a game. yeah and later we bring everything together it's like if you don't know the alphabet you will never be able to write and you will never be able to read that's why alphabet is so important and those dogs is the same smart dogs have an alphabet you bring it together and then they adapt immediately [49:10] to new situations and they say oh i did see that a while ago it's a little bit similar i will find the solution well it's a little bit like the dog learns to stay on the pedestal for when you're moving around then i taught my dog to stay in the back of the buggy same thing same thing the other day i decided i'm going to go out on the kayak and it's a one person kayak so you know there's not [49:39] much room and i told her to get in she was like i don't know how i get in i'm like i know how and i grab her i put her in and she's just standing there we go for totally fine staying easy make make assimilations they bring it together and that's very strong and we have patience in that and we don't want to see the most famous dogs when they're six weeks old and we don't want to put them

[50:06] in university we want to see them when they're two years old that they do good job yeah well-behaved and that's very important to understand for example with that little bitch there she's so fast that when we will send her on a helper she's going to break her neck so oh yeah already gets hurt when we when we send her out for balls and stuff on bumpy so fast you cannot believe that means that we're going to protect her by not doing too much bite work on long distances it will be from short and the [50:36] day that we think she's strong enough when she's about two years then we will do it but we can use it for so much things she sees a pleasure to have no it's it's it's very fun to have a dog like that yeah and then what i wanted to tell you ben is yeah does not like to bark because she's a very silent dog okay bite but not bark bite yes but not bark so other dogs you wait a little bit and they start [51:03] barking out of frustration because they don't get the bite with her it's something else no but she loves the bicycle the bicycle she loves and then one day she started to bark when she knew we're gonna start biking and that's the moment where we say okay this is our step in and now she barks i think 14 times like gung gung gung gung and then michael gives a vocal signal [51:34] a clicker yeah and then the dog gets the ball and so she learns that her barking activates the whole sequence of fun things and because she is endorphins she likes to run on that bloody bike she likes to come back so tired you cannot believe she loves it so she has the endorphins but because that's her thing she's a little sick we will put that behavior [52:01] we will put that behavior on the stimulus control not allowed to bark and now you must bark and then later if we have that we will generalize it to other pictures and but that's what people don't grab but it was very funny i was out with my horse one day and she was on the flex bowl and then bart untied her and she came over to the horse and then immediately started barking so she had already generalized that that will make you move and then i was like okay we're gonna move [52:34] and as soon as we move she just ran off like okay so and and ben what we want to do don't you think yeah yeah she's a little problem solver yeah that's what we want to tell people you see so much more out of training than in training in the daily life and that you must remember and that is your entrance key your entrance alphabet the ace the beast for a later x y and z exercise but people don't have that

[53:06] fantasy that's a bit what we try to tell people go where it's easy don't go where it's where it's hard you know with the flow then i think that you wanted to speak about the last little topic is that possible yes your new your new e-collars yes sir um three it's it's a three chameleon three b is that right that's it yeah tell us all about those please so the mid piece is shorter [53:35] it's a hard two plastic shelves it has a curve and it's curved at the inside so it does a better fit than the normal tree and much harder the normal tree was soft this is hard plastic with injection at the inside so that's the only physical difference another difference is you can charge it by putting [54:00] it on the induction plate do you have an induction plate here yes and by putting it on the normal cable so this is what it's for the camera make it long enough i'm high enough is it on yeah do we see yeah it's on it's on okay yeah it starts on and when this flashing light is non-stop solid then it's charged so you can also charge it via the other system on [54:33] the cables so we have the two systems and then another difference is you switch it on like before much better led no contact and this means contact no contact contact no contact contact no contact no contact contact no contact contact [55:01] you see yeah and in addition to that we have application that's very strong doggy fi doggy fi can you see it doggy fi oh yep yep same on it and then there's the thing doggy fi and then it appears yeah and then i must up this attract chameleon 3b medium wait wait wait searching for design [55:30] type of data synchronization and what is it telling you contact or no contact can you see it yes yes and then it says no well it's got a a warning sign so it must not have contact now it's green contact no contact no contact contact yeah awesome contact contact this will of course only work in range bluetooth which is about 25 meters okay then you have the temperature temperature [56:02] yeah in that when you tap it it will be celsius and fahrenheit in one week from now when you put on a minimum and a maximum the application will alert you when the temperature go lower or higher than your minimum or your maximum because there's a lot of dogs that have problems in the summer in the cars yes system will alert you in bluetooth range and that's the temperature of the collar yes yes yes so that's a patent

[56:35] so michael and i did patented that i think six years ago the patent have been granted so and that's exclusive feature which is also good to know because our colors in regions where ecolors are not allowed could be tone vibration temperature only and then we will write in a big flyer if tone vibration are not [57:03] sufficient to change modified behavior of your dog please consult a napel po gold graduate that has a equal napel po e-color license to together with this professional you can chiptune and now comes this is amazing now i tap a button color settings which i just did and then you can change all parameters [57:32] tone no tone no steam and then you can and that's the the level output you can change level by level the outputs you can turn it you can change the output level of each level is that right yes yes you can change the output level you can change whether it's pulsating or continuous electricity pulsating continuous no steam at all it's that a little bit sorry i know i couldn't say that bit and you can raise it [58:02] and lower it you can change instead it so that people cannot on purpose or by accident use it behind your backs and so on and so on and then another very important thing is that you can play with the tones with the vibrations you can play with everything yeah and then you can if you go to like in australia a state where it's not allowed then you say okay now i go back and [58:33] we disable stimulation and you tap disable stimulation and then your dog is still wearing the collar that is used to but you have no stimulation i don't see it disable it do you want to disable it disable and now i disable now it's disabled all electricity is out you want the inverse you inverse you change to another state tap the button now enable enabled again and now it's all to factory setting so [59:02] very easy and more and more there's more than that now that's the basic at the end of the month or i think from now on all android users and all apple users can have the application but you need a color the last colors or a b micro or a big chameleon that you can see and use all those features [59:29] but in one month from now we will add a virtual color so that the whole world can play with a virtual color and see the app in reality and see all the different things you can do with it because we didn't even explain everything now yes okay yeah so wow well we did push the industry to next level yeah and you always have lovers and you always have haters what we know is this is the future

[59:57] and that's it and it's so nice now because even before you could still see if you had contact or not but now just i normally have my phone with me i put my my dog on the pedestal i put on i put on the i put on the collar on the dog and even if i go past even if i go past that two minute time i can press the locator [60:24] yeah okay now it's working it says yeah it's working again so when i have contact don't work for the camera there there it has this contact yeah same yes so it's easy just to get out of your phone and you see now and i like to now with this collar i make it as loose as possible and still have contact and then it's fantastic because before you always just i gotta make it [60:52] really really tight to make sure i have contact right with other colors and with the martin collar you still have to look now the very good thing is is all this technology can bring us to voice activation and whatever we want so everything is in the pipelines what people must understand is that they pay 15 percent more for this color than the classic 15 the classic will be taken out of [61:22] ours we will stop producing them yep and the b is the what we call the first step it's the step in for the chameleon 4 that will come in october at a totally other price sheeting chameleon 4 will be the on off of the color by remote you switch on the transmitter [61:48] the color will go on you switch off the transmitter the color will go off okay all the details that we do receive on the chameleon 3 via bluetooth which is reduced in range on chameleon 4 will be minimum one mile minimum yeah okay comes back status of battery will come back contact measurement the whole [62:13] tralala yeah you didn't see that on here you also see you also see the status of the battery yeah okay oh okay that's good that's really good that means that the tree is a type of advertising is a type of appetizer for the four but the four will be a totally other price sheeting yeah okay are you going to um put a battery um sort of level thing on the remote itself the new remote yes the [62:45] new remote will be this one without the defaults of this one it will be light display it will be rechargeable it will be waterproof you can do no crazy shit anymore and break the antenna it will be bluetooth with your iphone so that your iphone becomes your display it will be waterproof new things are coming you cannot believe when when you reckon that would be coming out the new

[63:15] october yeah okay that'll be good but all these things are compatible with this color receiver so that's nice it means that the new transmitter which we call the k9 will be compatible with all the colors that we did sell in the past okay oh that's awesome yes sir so we we will we always try to think how can we make it compatible so that people [63:42] can slowly upgrade and as they as they want yeah yeah but the app the app itself that'll only work with the 3b and then the four it doesn't work with the previous no it's only with the 3b and the four yeah yeah yeah yeah awesome i think it was a very very good uh conversation yeah mike and i tried to speak with and every continent we tried to speak with canada we tried to speak with usa we tried to speak with [64:13] south america where we can only do it in english we tried to speak with europe we tried to speak with australia a demand from china we did not receive but we are open to speak with them in english there's no other way so i mean we tried to be open for the whole world yeah yeah they call me the man with no hair in china anyway what people must understand is that we cannot do chats with the whole world non-stop [64:46] yeah so we we we tried to go left and right a little bit and there she still is there she's still asleep oh she's enjoying the rest hey ben we did hear that have a new infrastructure speak us about that and then maybe we can stop yeah we've got a we've got a new kennel facility um we've just started in southern river um it's more of a um where is that where southern river it's [65:14] it's south of uh south of perth that's south of the river in perth yeah southern river hence the name they're not very um original in perth they just sort of roll with things it's a yeah it's a it's more of a sort of luxury type kennel facility so we're i'm not a huge fan of just kenneling dogs um so we do more of a board and train service um [65:43] and and you know a lot of people are using it more like a holiday for their dog to go on a holiday when they go on a holiday right so we play with the dogs a few times a day we train them a few times a day we exercise them a lot so um and and the kennels are a sort of state-of-the-art second to none in perth it's a big future it's a big yeah well we've just started it's a big risk but as you know

[66:09] with business you have to take risks so dream dream there do yeah that's it by the way i should like to tell that to the world i've been a few times to australia on um napole schools and seminars organized by one of the other guys which is pat and there ben was always and then ben had his [66:36] a little dog and we called him pope and i did see growing pope from little pope to the big pope to the master pope to the to to the fear of all the bad guys from where's the dog now melbourne he's in melbourne yeah he's with the police officer ben even my a little yeah that was the name of the guy yeah yeah i can't talk too much about the guy's name no no problem yeah that dog is one of the most [67:06] phenomenal dogs i ever saw in my life and that dog was of course physically born for that he was trained by you in the napole system that dog is full of fire full of fire and of course the dog needed the strong handler to control him and i remember we did nice tactical work with him it was a dog that's a dog [67:31] i never forget never yeah impressive fire i'm sure he's having the time of his life yeah yeah he loves his job i think well good thanks very much yeah he's a great dog that's what people must understand is that there is need for dogs like that and if tomorrow there is no more bite work well the first to call law enforcement are the people that it votes to prohibit the bite work it's always the same [67:58] man yeah yeah yeah first hey he's serving the community so he is serving the communities he's um he's doing a great job yeah fantastic impressive job he's been in the newspaper quite a few times he has been in the news they're trying to sort of keep it a little bit um hush hush but yeah he's um he's got in the newspaper a couple of times i i just say that for the people who you know anyway yeah of [68:24] course yeah of course yeah of course hey thanks very much for your time guys i really appreciate it um and thank you being so many and grandfather go sleep now yeah i'm gonna go do some more work but um really appreciate it um and um great to catch up again and look after yourselves okay bye to all the people there bye bye take care bye to samantha everyone everyone get to samantha yes [68:51] all right and remember her that the men like something more than just a chocolate bar get me in trouble now you [69:20] Live interview - Kaizen K9 29 March 2021 29 March 2021 - Live interview Kaizen K9 with Michael and Bart Bellon.