E202: 페트라 포드(Petra Ford) - "훈련과 대회를 위한 최적의 각성 상태"

Um, you're focused, uh, you're, um, not too excited. You're in a nice kind of sweet spot for learning and performing at your optimal level. Um, and then there's what typically we thought was optimal, which is, um, tug, tug, tug, get your dog frenetic, crazy, tug a little more, get them even crazier. And that was the answer to everything was tug more and get them crazier. Um, and then also when you're in that state, there's this tricky crossover between when is it, um, excited and when does it, it become anxiety, which is not comfortable as I think most people know. So did I answer your question? Yeah. So I wanted to know what an optimal drive state was. It sounds like you're kind of using the words drive and arousal a little interchangeably. Is that? Yeah, I think I was. I mean, I, I don't think I'm going to anymore because, um, if you really look at the definition drive, it's more like, um, talking about a dog's instinctive drives, like, um, prey drive, um, sex drive, you know, um, hurting that kind of thing. Um, and that's really not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to just a dog being, um, under aroused or over aroused or in that perfect sweet spot kind of in the middle. And that coincides very much so with humans and how we are chemically and, um, arousal states for humans. It's pretty much the same as with dogs. And I think if you think of it that way, then you can, um, relate more to how your dog is feeling. Um, when we used to say drive state, it was just, you know, I have a high drive dog because he's bred to work and then I tug and I put him in higher drive. Um, I think it's like a pretty vague word. It's not as specific. Makes you kind of think of a race car and like revving the engine, right? Oh, we love to rev that engine and it's very addicting. It's kind of a problem. So with all of that in mind, you know, how can you really tell when a dog's kind of in that optimal state when they're not too high and they're not too low? Right. So I think, um, two things, one is a, you just have to be aware that that's something we should be looking for. And then B, we have to really learn how to read our dogs. Um, and it can be a little tricky and a little deceptive. So, um, I think you have to really approach it with an open mind and then you have to learn the signs that your dog, um, because dogs will look different, but, um, kind of typically if they're in a nice state, their body is relaxed. Um, their ear set is high. Their breathing is normal. Um, it's not, they're not panting heavily. Um, their eyes are very clear.

Um, when my dogs are too high, their eyes either get twitchy or, um, like Zaina's eyes almost get, um, squinty and a little cloudy. They're very clear. Um, let's see, their tail is, could be wagging or still, but it's not, um, standing like at, you know, attention, uh, ready. The dog's not twitchy. The dog's kind of energetic, but relaxed. So those are some signs. And then there's some variability among dogs and it just becomes a matter of really observing your dog and being objective about what you're seeing. So last time you were on, we talked quite a bit about zeal and kind of, you know, the journey the two of you have taken to kind of figure out how to help him be his best. Um, I was curious, you know, how much did experimenting with what we're talking about now, uh, you know, arousal levels and whatnot kind of factor into that for him? Um, yeah. So without that knowledge and without, um, learning what I learned and applying it in a way that it became practical and I could use it at a moment's nose notice, I wouldn't be anywhere with him. Um, it was kind of, so the story started to with Tyler, who I had over adrenalized all the time, didn't realize it, you know, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. Um, and when the Tyler had one, um, weakness and that was when I healed him, he used to eye flick all the time and I wanted steady eye contact. And we used to think it was because he wasn't really paying attention a hundred percent and he wasn't fully engaged. So, um, fast forward, I'm training zeal completely different, um, hits his son, but they couldn't be more different. Um, big surprise. I'm in my yard tugging with him like crazy, um, out and put him into heel position, start healing his eyes, start eye flicking just like Tyler's. And I went, Oh boy, this is a problem. I'm creating this. I had no idea why or how. Um, fortunately because, um, my oldest dog Zayden has a ton of massive chemical issues. Um, I had consulted with Brenda Alof, a behaviorist, and she had helped me with him tremendously. So I contacted her and she very patiently taught, you know, talked to me off the adrenaline kick, um, and taught me that, uh, how to just what I talked about, how to read dogs, um, you know, and then how to manage them, how to manage their arousal level. And then I kind of took some stuff that I knew as a physical therapist from working with children with autism, um, and some things, techniques we do to help them manage their chemical state. And I kind of played around with it and applied it, uh, to zeal. And I, I do it with all my dogs now and all my students' dogs.

Um, so that I can, um, because, so I use deep pressure, which is very calming and integrating, uh, which is something we do with children with autism. And I, like I said, I kind of messed around with it. And, uh, so it's helped zeal with his anxiety. So when he gets very anxious, it looks on the outside, like he's just very animated and, um, high and energetic. But if you look very carefully, you can see that it's not. And when I, I, I have it on cue now. And so when I give him that cue, um, he can calm himself down. Uh, so I use that a lot with him and I used it at nationals. I've, I've used it with him for years. I know you have quite the range of personalities in your own dogs. Um, can you, can you talk a little more about maybe some of the similarities and differences there, um, to give folks a little, a little more, um, of a picture, I guess, what we're talking about when we're talking about, you know, I, I was really gonna say high drive or low drive, but, you know, kind of based on our conversation, high arousal or low arousal. So, um, in terms of like what my different dogs look like and how I present that. So, um, so I have, so it all started with Zayden because literally he presents, uh, like a child with autism. So that's where I learned, um, to really apply these deep pressure techniques. And, um, it helped him when he gets very aroused and he goes over the cliff. He cannot, he chemically, he does not have the ability to pull himself back. So I have to help him do that. Um, so then when Zeal, um, started, uh, to have issues with anxiety, I applied that with him. His nervous system is a little more intact. So it carried over, it carries over more quickly with him and it, I don't, I have to use, um, and I actually, like I said, put it on cue. Um, so I use that with him. Zayna is completely different. She's very confident. She's innately, extremely energetic. Um, so with her, I've used it a little more as calming when she gets a little too, too edgy and twitchy. I, I use it to calm her down. I have a different cue for her and I, um, put deep pressure in a different way for her because she's different. So she doesn't like what he likes. Um, so I had to kind of change it around. Um, with Zayna though, I got a little bit smarter and I worked super hard. I knew as a little puppy that she could easily, um, get over aroused. So I was very careful about not, um, getting her too aroused. Um, so I'm much more careful with that with her and, uh, the puppy, um, so far he seems pretty stable, kind of pretty much in the middle.

I can see he has it in him to get a little too high, but, um, so far I've been able to keep it in check. So part of what I do now is I'm also very aware and very mindful. And if I see something causes my dog to get very aroused, then I immediately back off and kind of, um, temper that. So we've been talking about this quite a bit, but you know, why is this important? Why is this something that it's worth thinking about, especially for those of us who maybe hope to compete with our dogs someday? Well, I mean, the reality is that it doesn't matter, you know, how well we train our dogs. It doesn't matter how well we can manage our internal state, how good of a handler we are. When we go in the ring, the dogs are going to feel stress in some way, shape or form. Um, and so if we have a tool that can help them manage that stress, then that's pretty awesome. You know, and that's something I know we've never had in the past. And so you kind of, you know, that feeling when you go in the ring with your dog, everybody has it and things start to happen. And we're like, Oh, we have no idea what to do. And we feel like we've just have no control and things are just happening and we're lost. And so, um, a being able to read my dogs is super helpful because now I can tell what's going on moment by moment. Um, and then in the ring, I have tools that I can apply moment by moment. So if my dog goes in the ring and he starts getting, um, a little too flat, right? A little worried and he gets a little flat, I can give him a cue that brings him up. Um, if I feel like my dog is starting to get a little anxious and twitchy, I have a different cue that can, I can apply instantly that can help him calm down. Um, so that's, um, pretty amazing cause it's empowering, right? So you then you don't have that anymore where you're like, Oh boy, this whole thing is slipping away from me and I have no way of reeling it back in. You actually do. It's a pretty cool tool to have. And like I said, I, at the end of the day, my dogs have an up cue and they have a calming cue. Um, and then the rest is just up to me. I need to be able to read my dog and give them what they need. Like I said, moment by moment, cause it can change within a class. Um, it could change month to month, you know, cause they're living, breathing beings and they change. Just like us. You mentioned earlier, you know, this idea that sometimes it's possible to mistake anxiety for excitement. So I wanted to talk about that just a little bit more. Why is that, you know, such a common problem? What can we really do about it?

I think because, you know, um, nobody wants a dog that's kind of flat. So people want the opposite. They want a dog that's animated, that's excited, that's fast, that looks like they're loving their job. Um, so excitement and anxiety can look very similar. Um, so I think that's where the problem lies, right? Um, so if a dog gets so aroused, um, that it becomes uncomfortable, they're not going to tell us that we need to be able to read when the dog goes from being aroused to being what I would say over aroused. And like I said, it can look very similar. It's very clear. The difference between when a dog is not very excited and when a dog is excited, that's pretty clear because they look very different. And I do think that there are a lot of people that really believe as I used to, that when their dog is in a state where there, where, um, the arousal has flipped over from excitement to anxiety, they don't recognize that. So they're like, this is a picture of a happy, excited dog. And so everyone looks at that picture and says, oh, well, I aspire to that then. Um, so I think it's just, um, being able to read the subtle differences in, you know, kind of, um, their eyes and their mouth and their breathing and their body posture. And I think reading dogs accurately is kind of a weakness, um, for sure in traditional dog obedience training. Um, but I, I, I see it a lot where people, um, really don't know the difference. Um, so just developing the skill of really reading your dog objectively. I also think what happens is, um, humans love to project and label. Um, and I'm very guilty of that. You know, zeal is a, um, is a nervous, anxious dog. And then I label him that. And then I subconsciously reinforce that label all the time. And then I'm not just objectively reading what's in front of me. Um, so I think that happens with that too. We're like, oh, my dog's jumping up and down. Oh, good. He's excited and happy. And you're just labeling that. And then you're not objectively saying, well, I don't know. Is he, or is he too excited? You know, is he screaming? And maybe that's not so good. Right. Um, so, so kind of, as we've talked about this, we've talked a little bit about the what's. I want to kind of shift gears a little bit and talk about some of the hows. So it, if a dog tends to run high, you know, how can we actually teach them to kind of lower that? Yeah. Yeah. So first off, um, like I said, the first thing is prevention. So, um, if you are able to, if you pay attention, you will start to see certain things that trigger and that will flip your dog up. And so then I will avoid those.

So if I take out Zaina's favorite toy and throw it across the room, uh, instantly she's gonna go into hyper arousal. So instead of throwing it when I'm training, maybe I'll tug and I'll only tug for a little bit. And then I'll out her and spit her a cookie, give her a second to compose herself, then move into work. And then it's functional. And I didn't throw her over the cliff. Um, if we do throw the dogs over the cliff or if the dog throws themselves over the cliff, um, I do something where, uh, so if you think about it like this, if you're, um, super nervous about something and someone comes up to you and just starts rubbing you or says, it's okay, Melissa, don't worry about it. That's not really going to be very comforting. Um, but if someone, you know, walks up to you and just gives you a big, deep, tight, squeezing hug, right? You're like, ah, that feels better. Um, so it's the same concept. Um, so it's the same concept, deep pressure, just steady, deep pressure, um, on a dog is calming. I use it in my rehab all the time. Dog comes in super nervous. You know, I need to work on the dog. I will literally lie on top of the dog and I'll take some deep breaths and the dog calms down. Now that's kind of a, just a general, there's variations among that. You know, some dogs might not tolerate that right away. Um, so I kind of with each dog, I play around with it. And again, it's reading the dog, observing the dog. Um, what does the dog find calming, um, versus just a recipe do this, um, because it, there are a lot of variations, but the concept is give the dog deep pressure, take some slow, deep, calming breaths, and it integrates the dog and it calms the dog down. And then over time, um, I have to apply less and less pressure. Um, and over time the dog responds more and more quickly so that right now, um, you know, I could show you, I could take my dog, I could take Zeal, I could give him a cue. He'll start throwing himself into, um, high arousal. I'll give him another cue. He'll start offering calming signals and calm himself down. So if that's taking a dog that's maybe too high and helping them calm down, you know, how do you teach the reverse? How do you teach a dog who runs low to actually come up a little bit? Yeah. So I do it using tricks because dogs tend to like tricks a lot. Um, in part, um, that's really, uh, because of us, right? When we teach tricks, we're happy, we laugh, we're relaxed. Tricks are very highly reinforced, um, both with food, um, and just with our attitude and, you know, the way we are. Then we get into obedience exercises and everything gets deadly serious.

Um, so I use tricks a lot. I also use, um, offering, um, dogs love to offer. It's very empowering for them and it changes their state of mind and it throws them into, um, you know, just, uh, higher arousal level. So I use tricks and offering and games. But, you know, um, all my dogs now I'm trying to go through the dogs I have and some of my students' dogs. Most of them we can bump them up fairly quickly with, um, some tricks and some offering. So your syllabus mentions this idea of managing your energy to influence your dog's energy. I know that's something Denise has talked about in the past too, but can you kind of talk about what you mean by that and kind of how that works? Yeah, sure. So, um, our, you know, our dogs are not verbal. Our dogs read our body language and our bodies can project calm and our bodies can project frustration and our bodies can project energy and our bodies can be frenetic. So some people at, um, sometimes in an effort to jolly up their dogs, they get a little frantic. Okay, let's go. Come on, come on, come on. All right. And some dogs are like, all right, that's just way too much for me. I don't like that. Um, so if I want my dog to be calm, I relax my whole body. I take deep breaths. I move, um, in a very controlled and calm manner. If I want to, my dog to, you know, give me some more energy, then I move with more energy. I push with more energy. Um, my body just emits more energy. Um, typically in the ring, most dogs, I would argue probably all dogs just need you to be cool, calm, and collected, right? And kind of convey that everything is good. Um, I got this. Don't worry. Just, you know, I'll give you your cues. Just do what I say and you know your job and it's all good. Um, and I work on that and training so that it becomes a habit. So I think humans tend not to be very self-aware, especially when we're training, all our focus is on the dog and on our mechanics. And we're not thinking about, um, we're, you know, our own emotions and our state of mind and what our body is doing and what our body is projecting. So I think it is important to be really self-aware. And I think what happens is, um, if you have a dog that's anxious, their anxiety tends to spill onto you. And then most people respond to that with anxiety. And when a dog gets anxious, you, um, instantly, like I feel it. And then I said, I instantly, I start to take deep breaths and I'm like, no, I have to be calm. And then my calm will then filter back. So just like the dog's, um, anxiety filtered over to me, my calm will filter back to the dog.

Um, the worst thing you can do with an anxious dog is to get anxious and frustrated. Um, you need to get as calm as possible. And then you will actually also be more objective and thoughtful because when you're anxious, you're in fight or flight and your brain is not working optimally. So to kind of bring things full circle, you know, I mentioned you had the class on the schedule for February, who should really consider signing up? And are there any skills they need kind of before they sign up, you know, to qualify kind of for the class? Um, I, I mean, it's probably helpful if your dog has some tricks. I think most dogs do. I, you know, I think when people see that, obviously people with dogs that tend to be over aroused, that will appeal to them. Um, um, I will argue that it's beneficial really for all dogs because all dogs are going to, as I mentioned, struggle on some, on some level and all dogs alternate between, um, lower arousal and higher arousal. I think for one, as a community, like we can all benefit from really being experts at reading our dogs. And we're going to look at that a fair amount. Um, but obviously if your dog does tend to get over roused or under roused, it's helpful. Um, but like I said, I think all dogs, um, even Zaina, who's innately ridiculously confident, um, you know, very, uh, independent, the environment doesn't bother her if you look at it from the outside, but you know, she's, uh, she does. I still use these techniques with her because when she goes in the ring, she does get a little concerned. Um, sometimes she gets a little too excited. Sometimes she gets a little flat. Uh, so I think competition is just hard, you know, it's hard for dogs. And I think to have these tools are super helpful. I mean, I found them invaluable for my dogs personally, for sure. Anything else you kind of want to share about the class? Um, no, I, I think someone asked me, you know, uh, if they, for, if it's relevant for agility, I, I think it is. And I, for me, it would be super fun. I love, um, problem solving. I love figuring things out. So I, um, it, it will be fun for me if people from different sports wanted to give it a try. You know, um, I, I like making things up as we go along. So I think that's really fun. Um, you know, obviously obedience is my thing. I think it's a tremendous thing to have for obedience because obedience just involves a lot of pressure and, and it's just, um, involved, it's stressful for the dogs and this really helps them, um, get through the classes in a much better state of mind and emotionally in a better place. All right.

One last question for you, kind of the one that I've been rounding things out with, um, that I'm sure, you know, is coming. So, uh, what's something that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to training? Um, so I was reminded of again, that it's super important to, um, not label, um, not assume and to just observe my dogs. And, uh, one of my mentors many, many, many, many years ago said it is what it is. So if the dog's doing it, it just, it is what it is. Stop, you know, analyzing it and trying to put all your human thoughts and feelings on it. Um, if the dog looks away, then the dog doesn't know not to look away. If the dog, you know, um, looks worried, the dog is worried. Um, so yeah, I was just reminded of that. But we've very recently, you know, don't label my dog, just read what she's doing and adjust and just address it. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Petra. Thank you so much for having me. I always enjoy it. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Jade Whitesell to talk about training positions. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes, the podcast app of your choice, that our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.