유튜브 영상 QvvWMgeg_UE

1:44

the topics you'll learn about here to find out more about membership and how find out more about membership and how find out more about membership and how you can join the community and carry on you can join the community and carry on you can join the community and carry on the conversation there's a WWE animal the conversation there's a WWE animal the conversation there's a WWE animal training academy calm and click the training academy calm and click the training academy calm and click the membership button and the main mean we membership button and the main mean we membership button and the main mean we will get started on today's episode will get started on today's episode will get started on today's episode where I'm going to be talking into one where I'm going to be talking into one where I'm going to be talking into one Chirag Patel dragged into the animal Chirag Patel dragged into the animal Chirag Patel dragged into the animal training field professionally in 2004 training field professionally in 2004 training field professionally in 2004 and has since become a leading figure and has since become a leading figure and has since become a leading figure and that proficient internationally he and that proficient internationally he and that proficient internationally he is highly sought after for consulting is highly sought after for consulting is highly sought after for consulting with private clients and with private clients and with private clients and organizations as well as running organizations as well as running organizations as well as running workshops for professionals workshops for professionals workshops for professionals internationally direct consults on the internationally direct consults on the internationally direct consults on the behavior management and training of behavior management and training of behavior management and training of domestic animals kept as pets exotics domestic animals kept as pets exotics domestic animals kept as pets exotics zoo and laboratory animals his passion zoo and laboratory animals his passion zoo and laboratory animals his passion is the application of behavior change is the application of behavior change is the application of behavior change science and ethics to improve the lives science and ethics to improve the lives science and ethics to improve the lives of animals living under human care of animals living under human care of animals living under human care especially applying training principles especially applying training principles especially applying training principles to teach animals to be active to teach animals to be active

2:36

to teach animals to be active participants in their own daily and participants in their own daily and participants in their own daily and veterinary care and a stress-free inner veterinary care and a stress-free inner veterinary care and a stress-free inner you want to find out more you can visit you want to find out more you can visit you want to find out more you can visit WWE stated manners calm and without WWE stated manners calm and without WWE stated manners calm and without further ado it's my very great pleasure further ado it's my very great pleasure further ado it's my very great pleasure to welcome one to reg petard to the show to welcome one to reg petard to the show to welcome one to reg petard to the show today today today welcome to reg hello how are you I'm welcome to reg hello how are you I'm welcome to reg hello how are you I'm doing extremely well how are you over doing extremely well how are you over doing extremely well how are you over there in England fantastic a little bit there in England fantastic a little bit there in England fantastic a little bit cold but feeling great we're gonna cold but feeling great we're gonna cold but feeling great we're gonna though I haven't started into the first though I haven't started into the first though I haven't started into the first question today could you please take us question today could you please take us question today could you please take us all back to where youth first started to all back to where youth first started to all back to where youth first started to learn about positive reinforcement learn about positive reinforcement learn about positive reinforcement animal training and maybe stories about animal training and maybe stories about animal training and maybe stories about some of the first animals you ever some of the first animals you ever some of the first animals you ever trained using it sure so it was really trained using it sure so it was really trained using it sure so it was really we got our family pet okay and I German we got our family pet okay and I German we got our family pet okay and I German Shepherd we've got in when I was 7 Shepherd we've got in when I was 7 Shepherd we've got in when I was 7 months lost yes dog a few years before months lost yes dog a few years before months lost yes dog a few years before that and my previous dog I was really that and my previous dog I was really that and my previous dog I was really young when we got him I remember him young when we got him I remember him young when we got him I remember him coming home and he was a German Shepherd

3:32

coming home and he was a German Shepherd coming home and he was a German Shepherd - and almost in every way I remember he - and almost in every way I remember he - and almost in every way I remember he was just like the perfect dog so he went was just like the perfect dog so he went was just like the perfect dog so he went to shop we have a shop so he went to to shop we have a shop so he went to to shop we have a shop so he went to shop every day he came back he would sit shop every day he came back he would sit shop every day he came back he would sit in the driveway in the van and the doors in the driveway in the van and the doors in the driveway in the van and the doors open we used to take him for a walk and open we used to take him for a walk and open we used to take him for a walk and I wouldn't really recommend people do I wouldn't really recommend people do I wouldn't really recommend people do this but back then he said without lead this but back then he said without lead this but back then he said without lead on Easter walk to the park walk back is on Easter walk to the park walk back is on Easter walk to the park walk back is wonderful in every way and then got cane wonderful in every way and then got cane wonderful in every way and then got cane at seven months and walking him down the at seven months and walking him down the at seven months and walking him down the street within the first week he grabbed street within the first week he grabbed street within the first week he grabbed hold of someone's arm and bit them and hold of someone's arm and bit them and hold of someone's arm and bit them and this happened twice in the first week this happened twice in the first week this happened twice in the first week and he used to put on ladies to growl and he used to put on ladies to growl and he used to put on ladies to growl and jump on the back of other dogs and and jump on the back of other dogs and and jump on the back of other dogs and grab hold of their neck and shake them grab hold of their neck and shake them grab hold of their neck and shake them and so it was a big shock from the and so it was a big shock from the and so it was a big shock from the previous experience that we've had with previous experience that we've had with previous experience that we've had with max so starting to work with the cane max so starting to work with the cane max so starting to work with the cane and doing some training we got started and doing some training we got started and doing some training we got started with going to the next police training with going to the next police training

4:18

with going to the next police training school and then the training methods school and then the training methods school and then the training methods were quite traditional and so using a were quite traditional and so using a were quite traditional and so using a choke chain choke chain choke chain pinning locks down kneeing them much pinning locks down kneeing them much pinning locks down kneeing them much more harsher methods and that's what I more harsher methods and that's what I more harsher methods and that's what I thought was thought was thought was I was the best but I'm working on this I was the best but I'm working on this I was the best but I'm working on this cane until I went to a dog show cane until I went to a dog show cane until I went to a dog show they had this marquee set up and in that they had this marquee set up and in that they had this marquee set up and in that marquee they had speakers throughout the marquee they had speakers throughout the marquee they had speakers throughout the whole day doing our slots and they had whole day doing our slots and they had whole day doing our slots and they had so many wonderful people from Sarah so many wonderful people from Sarah so many wonderful people from Sarah Whitehead to Ian Dunbar and Ian Dunbar Whitehead to Ian Dunbar and Ian Dunbar Whitehead to Ian Dunbar and Ian Dunbar was one of the final speakers of the day was one of the final speakers of the day was one of the final speakers of the day and I went in that 10:00 in the morning and I went in that 10:00 in the morning and I went in that 10:00 in the morning and I didn't end up leaving the tent for and I didn't end up leaving the tent for and I didn't end up leaving the tent for the whole day because I was just the whole day because I was just the whole day because I was just fascinated by all this information that fascinated by all this information that fascinated by all this information that I was fearing and that's quite different I was fearing and that's quite different I was fearing and that's quite different how I've been training so far and it was how I've been training so far and it was how I've been training so far and it was really the last tool that I end up Marv really the last tool that I end up Marv really the last tool that I end up Marv gave and that i sat there just like wow gave and that i sat there just like wow gave and that i sat there just like wow and everything Ian said it just really and everything Ian said it just really and everything Ian said it just really made a lot of I was like wow that just made a lot of I was like wow that just

5:07

made a lot of I was like wow that just turned everything on his head I don't turned everything on his head I don't turned everything on his head I don't need to be having a screaming on my dogs need to be having a screaming on my dogs need to be having a screaming on my dogs barking that actually doesn't make sense barking that actually doesn't make sense barking that actually doesn't make sense why am i doing that and so I went away why am i doing that and so I went away why am i doing that and so I went away and started reading more about Ian and started reading more about Ian and started reading more about Ian Dunbar's from work his books and from Dunbar's from work his books and from Dunbar's from work his books and from that I've got references and read the that I've got references and read the that I've got references and read the culture clash and started looking at culture clash and started looking at culture clash and started looking at training using a different philosophy so training using a different philosophy so training using a different philosophy so that's really where I suppose positive that's really where I suppose positive that's really where I suppose positive reinforcement started becoming a focus reinforcement started becoming a focus reinforcement started becoming a focus on my training and my work and I was on my training and my work and I was on my training and my work and I was very lucky to be able to go out to the very lucky to be able to go out to the very lucky to be able to go out to the States and work with both he and States and work with both he and States and work with both he and Lombardi and Donald certain Donaldson Lombardi and Donald certain Donaldson Lombardi and Donald certain Donaldson early on and after that point I was at a early on and after that point I was at a early on and after that point I was at a conference and I heard you know the conference and I heard you know the conference and I heard you know the keynote speaker and her name was dr. keynote speaker and her name was dr. keynote speaker and her name was dr. Susan Freedman and I never heard of her Susan Freedman and I never heard of her Susan Freedman and I never heard of her before that and I sat there thinking oh before that and I sat there thinking oh before that and I sat there thinking oh I know about learning theory and then I know about learning theory and then I know about learning theory and then she spoke and I just felt like oh my god she spoke and I just felt like oh my god she spoke and I just felt like oh my god I don't know anything there's so much to

5:56

I don't know anything there's so much to I don't know anything there's so much to learn and it really inspired me to want learn and it really inspired me to want learn and it really inspired me to want to cut more and I email Susan asking for to cut more and I email Susan asking for to cut more and I email Susan asking for more information about where I could more information about where I could more information about where I could learn more and that one talk that I learn more and that one talk that I learn more and that one talk that I heard from her originally really got me heard from her originally really got me heard from her originally really got me thinking about giving animals more thinking about giving animals more thinking about giving animals more control and choice in park training and control and choice in park training and control and choice in park training and it's not just about positive it's not just about positive it's not just about positive reinforcement but actually empowering reinforcement but actually empowering reinforcement but actually empowering our learners and that was a big huge our learners and that was a big huge our learners and that was a big huge stepping stone for me so I think they're stepping stone for me so I think they're stepping stone for me so I think they're some of the big events have really I some of the big events have really I some of the big events have really I work I love to be a fly on the wall as work I love to be a fly on the wall as work I love to be a fly on the wall as you're sitting there watching me and you're sitting there watching me and you're sitting there watching me and Dunbar and watching the cogs turning in Dunbar and watching the cogs turning in Dunbar and watching the cogs turning in your mind and then you you win admit dr. your mind and then you you win admit dr. your mind and then you you win admit dr. Susan Freedman Susan Freedman Susan Freedman you learned about ABA and my creature is you learned about ABA and my creature is you learned about ABA and my creature is still learning you're taking it even still learning you're taking it even still learning you're taking it even further now and doing some more learning further now and doing some more learning further now and doing some more learning on applied behavior analysis yes as I on applied behavior analysis yes as I on applied behavior analysis yes as I started learning more started learning more started learning more more just like this whole idea of more just like this whole idea of more just like this whole idea of learning theory kind of became smaller

6:45

learning theory kind of became smaller learning theory kind of became smaller and actually thinking is a actual whole and actually thinking is a actual whole and actually thinking is a actual whole science out there and applied behavior science out there and applied behavior science out there and applied behavior analysis and so I've become fascinated analysis and so I've become fascinated analysis and so I've become fascinated by the a/b analysis and I find it so by the a/b analysis and I find it so by the a/b analysis and I find it so interesting I'm doing my masters in ABA interesting I'm doing my masters in ABA interesting I'm doing my masters in ABA with the University in Islands yeah I'm with the University in Islands yeah I'm with the University in Islands yeah I'm doing more ABA learning of a bloomin air doing more ABA learning of a bloomin air doing more ABA learning of a bloomin air congratulations on doing a master's it's congratulations on doing a master's it's congratulations on doing a master's it's really cool when I hear you talk about really cool when I hear you talk about really cool when I hear you talk about going to see dr. Susan Freeman and going to see dr. Susan Freeman and going to see dr. Susan Freeman and thinking I know about learning theory thinking I know about learning theory thinking I know about learning theory and just having your mind completely and just having your mind completely and just having your mind completely blown can you just talk to this a little blown can you just talk to this a little blown can you just talk to this a little bit for them for the people listening bit for them for the people listening bit for them for the people listening who think yeah so as a young trainer who think yeah so as a young trainer who think yeah so as a young trainer we're doing so much work we go and go to we're doing so much work we go and go to we're doing so much work we go and go to so many courses and we hear people talk so many courses and we hear people talk so many courses and we hear people talk about positive reinforcement and about positive reinforcement and about positive reinforcement and learning theory the quadrant and we hear learning theory the quadrant and we hear learning theory the quadrant and we hear it so many times put in a popular way it so many times put in a popular way it so many times put in a popular way that we almost end up thinking oh yeah I that we almost end up thinking oh yeah I that we almost end up thinking oh yeah I know that stuff or I've heard it so many know that stuff or I've heard it so many

7:36

know that stuff or I've heard it so many times but actually when you hear it from times but actually when you hear it from times but actually when you hear it from someone like dr. Susan Freedman and you someone like dr. Susan Freedman and you someone like dr. Susan Freedman and you suddenly start discovering the whole suddenly start discovering the whole suddenly start discovering the whole field of behavior analysis you realize field of behavior analysis you realize field of behavior analysis you realize that actually what we know is just a that actually what we know is just a that actually what we know is just a tiny fraction and the more I learn the tiny fraction and the more I learn the tiny fraction and the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know more I realize how much I don't know more I realize how much I don't know and people do PhDs and post-op research and people do PhDs and post-op research and people do PhDs and post-op research on specific aspects of reinforcement so on specific aspects of reinforcement so on specific aspects of reinforcement so to think that we go to a talk or we read to think that we go to a talk or we read to think that we go to a talk or we read a book and we understand positive a book and we understand positive a book and we understand positive reinforcement there's so much out there reinforcement there's so much out there reinforcement there's so much out there and so many nuances that the more we and so many nuances that the more we and so many nuances that the more we learn the more we continue to learn so learn the more we continue to learn so learn the more we continue to learn so for me I think the time when we should for me I think the time when we should for me I think the time when we should stop doing what we do is when we think stop doing what we do is when we think stop doing what we do is when we think we know it all because definitely from we know it all because definitely from we know it all because definitely from my perspective the more I learn the more my perspective the more I learn the more my perspective the more I learn the more books I read the more educational events books I read the more educational events books I read the more educational events are going to a people I speak to it just are going to a people I speak to it just are going to a people I speak to it just highlights to me how much more there is highlights to me how much more there is highlights to me how much more there is to learn and I think that's great to learn and I think that's great to learn and I think that's great because it means we can do what we do

8:26

because it means we can do what we do because it means we can do what we do much better we can help the animals and much better we can help the animals and much better we can help the animals and the humans that look after them in a the humans that look after them in a the humans that look after them in a better way so it really inspires me to better way so it really inspires me to better way so it really inspires me to want to continue this journey and for me want to continue this journey and for me want to continue this journey and for me it's a really exciting journey yeah I it's a really exciting journey yeah I it's a really exciting journey yeah I like that sometimes I wake up in the like that sometimes I wake up in the like that sometimes I wake up in the morning and go yeah cool I I've got a morning and go yeah cool I I've got a morning and go yeah cool I I've got a really great Holderness and my trainings really great Holderness and my trainings really great Holderness and my trainings going great and I've got a really great going great and I've got a really great going great and I've got a really great understanding sometimes I wake up and go understanding sometimes I wake up and go understanding sometimes I wake up and go oh my god it's scary how little I know I oh my god it's scary how little I know I oh my god it's scary how little I know I think it's really something that should think it's really something that should think it's really something that should embrace that we should be embrace that we should be embrace that we should be happy about because we often think of it happy about because we often think of it happy about because we often think of it as a weakness or we think of it as as a weakness or we think of it as as a weakness or we think of it as something that would make us look less something that would make us look less something that would make us look less bright or less intelligent that we don't bright or less intelligent that we don't bright or less intelligent that we don't know that we couple we go to a console know that we couple we go to a console know that we couple we go to a console or we read about something waking up and or we read about something waking up and or we read about something waking up and thinking yeah I know this stuff it thinking yeah I know this stuff it thinking yeah I know this stuff it almost makes us feel better but actually almost makes us feel better but actually almost makes us feel better but actually we should embrace how much there is to we should embrace how much there is to

9:13

we should embrace how much there is to learn because I think there's so much we learn because I think there's so much we learn because I think there's so much we don't know and the fact that we're don't know and the fact that we're don't know and the fact that we're discovering new things and learning new discovering new things and learning new discovering new things and learning new things that's what life is it's a things that's what life is it's a things that's what life is it's a journey rather than just to end journey rather than just to end journey rather than just to end destination so I think is something we destination so I think is something we destination so I think is something we should definitely embrace and be happy should definitely embrace and be happy should definitely embrace and be happy about yeah and I made the podcast for about yeah and I made the podcast for about yeah and I made the podcast for all you listening but at the same time all you listening but at the same time all you listening but at the same time there's a bit of a selfish and different there's a bit of a selfish and different there's a bit of a selfish and different kid saying out well people like reg for kid saying out well people like reg for kid saying out well people like reg for tau on a weekly basis and just blow my tau on a weekly basis and just blow my tau on a weekly basis and just blow my mind every time I have these mind every time I have these mind every time I have these conversations so really appreciate you conversations so really appreciate you conversations so really appreciate you coming on here it's you're egging and coming on here it's you're egging and coming on here it's you're egging and helping myself and everyone listen to helping myself and everyone listen to helping myself and everyone listen to this podcast to take their understanding this podcast to take their understanding this podcast to take their understanding to the next level is a huge honor to be to the next level is a huge honor to be to the next level is a huge honor to be invited I think you're doing such an invited I think you're doing such an invited I think you're doing such an amazing job with the organization and I amazing job with the organization and I amazing job with the organization and I remember seeing emails are links or remember seeing emails are links or remember seeing emails are links or messages on Facebook about the messages on Facebook about the messages on Facebook about the organisation of not knowing too much but organisation of not knowing too much but

9:56

organisation of not knowing too much but even over the last year or two years even over the last year or two years even over the last year or two years just a feedback that I hear from so my just a feedback that I hear from so my just a feedback that I hear from so my students or people that common courses students or people that common courses students or people that common courses they just have the most wonderful things they just have the most wonderful things they just have the most wonderful things to say so I think it's great that to say so I think it's great that to say so I think it's great that there's organizations like yourself and there's organizations like yourself and there's organizations like yourself and the work that you're doing to help the work that you're doing to help the work that you're doing to help further education and make it easy for further education and make it easy for further education and make it easy for people to access because anyone in the people to access because anyone in the people to access because anyone in the world can access your podcasts or the world can access your podcasts or the world can access your podcasts or the education that you offer so I think education that you offer so I think education that you offer so I think that's wonderful what makes me that's wonderful what makes me that's wonderful what makes me emotionally finger you guys are all emotionally finger you guys are all emotionally finger you guys are all saying thanks saying thanks saying thanks I really appreciate it and for your I really appreciate it and for your I really appreciate it and for your masters sure egg are you doing you're masters sure egg are you doing you're masters sure egg are you doing you're doing a thesis I will be yes so I doing a thesis I will be yes so I doing a thesis I will be yes so I haven't decided yet exactly what I'll do haven't decided yet exactly what I'll do haven't decided yet exactly what I'll do because I'm still through the four because I'm still through the four because I'm still through the four component aspects of it but towards the component aspects of it but towards the component aspects of it but towards the end you know I will definitely be doing end you know I will definitely be doing end you know I will definitely be doing a thesis and so I've got a little bit of a thesis and so I've got a little bit of a thesis and so I've got a little bit of time to think about exactly what I want time to think about exactly what I want time to think about exactly what I want to focus on the study in more detail can

10:42

to focus on the study in more detail can to focus on the study in more detail can you share what your what your musings you share what your what your musings you share what your what your musings are or is it you've done or toilet no are or is it you've done or toilet no are or is it you've done or toilet no it's not necessarily I just think it's not necessarily I just think it's not necessarily I just think there's so many things in terms of every there's so many things in terms of every there's so many things in terms of every time I have this conversation and it's time I have this conversation and it's time I have this conversation and it's like a thousand things on the list do I like a thousand things on the list do I like a thousand things on the list do I even start and then next week I'll be even start and then next week I'll be even start and then next week I'll be having a conversation someone else I having a conversation someone else I having a conversation someone else I think oh my god that's exactly what I think oh my god that's exactly what I think oh my god that's exactly what I want to be doing everything from the want to be doing everything from the want to be doing everything from the cannot cues any more detail or looking cannot cues any more detail or looking cannot cues any more detail or looking at certain things in zoos and so one at certain things in zoos and so one at certain things in zoos and so one conversation I was having with conversation I was having with conversation I was having with as you recently was so when people walk as you recently was so when people walk as you recently was so when people walk by exhibits or enclosures how effective by exhibits or enclosures how effective by exhibits or enclosures how effective is it so when the person walks in in is it so when the person walks in in is it so when the person walks in in terms of they buy a ticket they wanted terms of they buy a ticket they wanted terms of they buy a ticket they wanted to zoo when the moment they leave what to zoo when the moment they leave what to zoo when the moment they leave what behavior changes occurred in terms of behavior changes occurred in terms of behavior changes occurred in terms of long term so the way the environment long term so the way the environment long term so the way the environment sell is it the best way to set the sell is it the best way to set the sell is it the best way to set the environment up or what things can we do environment up or what things can we do environment up or what things can we do differently so looking at that side of

11:28

differently so looking at that side of differently so looking at that side of things as well from a human change human things as well from a human change human things as well from a human change human behavior change perspective there's so behavior change perspective there's so behavior change perspective there's so many different angles but maybe some of many different angles but maybe some of many different angles but maybe some of the listeners can message me with more the listeners can message me with more the listeners can message me with more ideas and I can add them to my list yeah ideas and I can add them to my list yeah ideas and I can add them to my list yeah comment on on this on social media or go comment on on this on social media or go comment on on this on social media or go to mr. ken means calm will comment on to mr. ken means calm will comment on to mr. ken means calm will comment on the podcast right up and we'll choose the podcast right up and we'll choose the podcast right up and we'll choose your missus your missus your missus there sounds absolutely fascinating can there sounds absolutely fascinating can there sounds absolutely fascinating can you bring everyone listening the other you bring everyone listening the other you bring everyone listening the other up to speed with are we in 2018 you're up to speed with are we in 2018 you're up to speed with are we in 2018 you're running your own business what else are running your own business what else are running your own business what else are you up to the moment so what am i up to you up to the moment so what am i up to you up to the moment so what am i up to I am doing lots of workshops on movie I am doing lots of workshops on movie I am doing lots of workshops on movie laughs people want to content these laughs people want to content these laughs people want to content these workshops and asked me to blend visit workshops and asked me to blend visit workshops and asked me to blend visit them in the organizations and help them in the organizations and help them in the organizations and help consult whether it's an abort rehousing consult whether it's an abort rehousing consult whether it's an abort rehousing research animals or a zoo housing research animals or a zoo housing research animals or a zoo housing animals and those situations are pets so animals and those situations are pets so animals and those situations are pets so a large block my time is been consulting a large block my time is been consulting a large block my time is been consulting I'm also working on a few projects we've

12:21

I'm also working on a few projects we've I'm also working on a few projects we've just finished filming for TV show which just finished filming for TV show which just finished filming for TV show which aren't you too much information about at aren't you too much information about at aren't you too much information about at the moment but hopefully that will be the moment but hopefully that will be the moment but hopefully that will be out in the UK this year and that will out in the UK this year and that will out in the UK this year and that will help spread the message about positive help spread the message about positive help spread the message about positive reinforcement giving animals choice and reinforcement giving animals choice and reinforcement giving animals choice and throw so that would be an exciting throw so that would be an exciting throw so that would be an exciting project and then there's a conference I project and then there's a conference I project and then there's a conference I run every so often so we're just working run every so often so we're just working run every so often so we're just working on planning the next one for 2019 at the on planning the next one for 2019 at the on planning the next one for 2019 at the moment so yeah there's loads of things moment so yeah there's loads of things moment so yeah there's loads of things going on and where can people go make going on and where can people go make going on and where can people go make sure we say this couple times and sure we say this couple times and sure we say this couple times and podcast and we'll say it Riley in Azure podcast and we'll say it Riley in Azure podcast and we'll say it Riley in Azure before we finish but just let people before we finish but just let people before we finish but just let people know at the moment where they can go to know at the moment where they can go to know at the moment where they can go to to get in touch of you and then find out to get in touch of you and then find out to get in touch of you and then find out more information about upcoming events more information about upcoming events more information about upcoming events and into mr. Kato bitters yeah people and into mr. Kato bitters yeah people and into mr. Kato bitters yeah people can go to the website domesticated can go to the website domesticated can go to the website domesticated management plum or I use Facebook quite management plum or I use Facebook quite management plum or I use Facebook quite a lot so if they go to facebook-dot-com a lot so if they go to facebook-dot-com

13:06

a lot so if they go to facebook-dot-com forward-slash Chirag Patel DM and I'll forward-slash Chirag Patel DM and I'll forward-slash Chirag Patel DM and I'll acces my professional page which I acces my professional page which I acces my professional page which I usually update with new offense and they usually update with new offense and they usually update with new offense and they can contact me that link as well cool can contact me that link as well cool can contact me that link as well cool make sure to link to all the stuff in make sure to link to all the stuff in make sure to link to all the stuff in the podcast right up is the podcast right up is the podcast right up is well excited about this TV program more well excited about this TV program more well excited about this TV program more TV programs we can bring out on the TV programs we can bring out on the TV programs we can bring out on the stuff the better obviously - a contrast stuff the better obviously - a contrast stuff the better obviously - a contrast to some of the stuff available and to some of the stuff available and to some of the stuff available and exciting about wolf wolf an acronym exciting about wolf wolf an acronym exciting about wolf wolf an acronym Shrek no um a friend of mine came up Shrek no um a friend of mine came up Shrek no um a friend of mine came up with when we're working on this project with when we're working on this project with when we're working on this project originally and it was just something originally and it was just something originally and it was just something short and easy to say and something that short and easy to say and something that short and easy to say and something that we in treat people without about and it we in treat people without about and it we in treat people without about and it was gonna regionally focusing on the dog was gonna regionally focusing on the dog was gonna regionally focusing on the dog community but now it's more about community but now it's more about community but now it's more about behavior science the application to behavior science the application to behavior science the application to learning whether it's a dog or a wild learning whether it's a dog or a wild learning whether it's a dog or a wild animal or human so yeah and when's the animal or human so yeah and when's the animal or human so yeah and when's the next wolf conference we're planning next wolf conference we're planning next wolf conference we're planning February 2019 so I mean can you share February 2019 so I mean can you share

13:58

February 2019 so I mean can you share any more details about oh we don't speak any more details about oh we don't speak any more details about oh we don't speak it hopefully in the next two weeks we'll it hopefully in the next two weeks we'll it hopefully in the next two weeks we'll have information about speakers and the have information about speakers and the have information about speakers and the exact dates confirm so people keep an exact dates confirm so people keep an exact dates confirm so people keep an eye on and the Facebook page or the eye on and the Facebook page or the eye on and the Facebook page or the website then they can get they'll be the website then they can get they'll be the website then they can get they'll be the first to know so definitely some they first to know so definitely some they first to know so definitely some they can even send us a message on can even send us a message on can even send us a message on domesticated manners calm and we can eat domesticated manners calm and we can eat domesticated manners calm and we can eat mail them out soon in the next couple of mail them out soon in the next couple of mail them out soon in the next couple of weeks with the information cool and weeks with the information cool and weeks with the information cool and we're about so they're gonna be located we're about so they're gonna be located we're about so they're gonna be located that will be in the UK so most likely that will be in the UK so most likely that will be in the UK so most likely will be Nottingham where we held the will be Nottingham where we held the will be Nottingham where we held the last wolf our conference centre there last wolf our conference centre there last wolf our conference centre there and so that would be February 2019 so and so that would be February 2019 so and so that would be February 2019 so wonderful and I love hearing about wonderful and I love hearing about wonderful and I love hearing about people's what I call behavioural Odyssey people's what I call behavioural Odyssey people's what I call behavioural Odyssey so thank you very much for sharing so thank you very much for sharing so thank you very much for sharing moving forward I would really like to moving forward I would really like to moving forward I would really like to talk about one of your I don't know if talk about one of your I don't know if talk about one of your I don't know if training techniques or right way to use training techniques or right way to use training techniques or right way to use it but let's go there for now encourage it but let's go there for now encourage

14:44

it but let's go there for now encourage me if you want a phrase another me if you want a phrase another me if you want a phrase another different way one of your training different way one of your training different way one of your training techniques that you'll come up with and techniques that you'll come up with and techniques that you'll come up with and this is the bucket game can you please this is the bucket game can you please this is the bucket game can you please tell people listening what is the bucket tell people listening what is the bucket tell people listening what is the bucket game how it works and what makes it such game how it works and what makes it such game how it works and what makes it such an efficient tool for people to use an efficient tool for people to use an efficient tool for people to use so the bucket game is something that so the bucket game is something that so the bucket game is something that I've been doing for a number of years I've been doing for a number of years I've been doing for a number of years and it started with Keynes so my German and it started with Keynes so my German and it started with Keynes so my German Shepherd used to bite people had to be Shepherd used to bite people had to be Shepherd used to bite people had to be sedated at the vets when he first went sedated at the vets when he first went sedated at the vets when he first went so working on voluntary event behaviors so working on voluntary event behaviors so working on voluntary event behaviors within kind of stipend we give that within kind of stipend we give that within kind of stipend we give that protocol and also things I've learned protocol and also things I've learned protocol and also things I've learned many other wonderful trainers and many other wonderful trainers and many other wonderful trainers and behaviorist and bucket game isn't behaviorist and bucket game isn't behaviorist and bucket game isn't anything new in terms of I haven't anything new in terms of I haven't anything new in terms of I haven't invented a new principal and you method invented a new principal and you method invented a new principal and you method I've just kind of taken things are I've just kind of taken things are I've just kind of taken things are already out there and maybe so made a already out there and maybe so made a already out there and maybe so made a cocktail which might be slightly cocktail which might be slightly cocktail which might be slightly different to what's been done before and different to what's been done before and

15:31

different to what's been done before and so the bucket game is about so the bucket game is about so the bucket game is about choice and empowering our learners and choice and empowering our learners and choice and empowering our learners and giving them a voice so we want the giving them a voice so we want the giving them a voice so we want the animal to be able to say start stop animal to be able to say start stop animal to be able to say start stop yes/no and making it quite clear or the yes/no and making it quite clear or the yes/no and making it quite clear or the human learner and also the animal human learner and also the animal human learner and also the animal learner so with the bucket game we use a learner so with the bucket game we use a learner so with the bucket game we use a target and the target is that usually a target and the target is that usually a target and the target is that usually a visual target hunt a container of food visual target hunt a container of food visual target hunt a container of food and what we do is we start off by and what we do is we start off by and what we do is we start off by teaching the learner the animal to teaching the learner the animal to teaching the learner the animal to orient towards the bucket or the orient towards the bucket or the orient towards the bucket or the container and holding a calm posture car container and holding a calm posture car container and holding a calm posture car body language standing there in a body language standing there in a body language standing there in a relaxed way and just focusing towards relaxed way and just focusing towards relaxed way and just focusing towards that pot now the part the target doesn't that pot now the part the target doesn't that pot now the part the target doesn't need to have anything in there but we do need to have anything in there but we do need to have anything in there but we do put food in there to start with reason put food in there to start with reason put food in there to start with reason being is if we're going to use food as a being is if we're going to use food as a being is if we're going to use food as a reinforcer we might as well teach our reinforcer we might as well teach our reinforcer we might as well teach our learners how to behave around that food learners how to behave around that food learners how to behave around that food because if they're trying to jump because if they're trying to jump because if they're trying to jump towards the food if they're trying to towards the food if they're trying to

16:23

towards the food if they're trying to get into the pot of food or your treat get into the pot of food or your treat get into the pot of food or your treat bag then when you're stopping them then bag then when you're stopping them then bag then when you're stopping them then that's gonna interfere with your that's gonna interfere with your that's gonna interfere with your reinforcement delivery it's gonna affect reinforcement delivery it's gonna affect reinforcement delivery it's gonna affect it could poison the food they're using it could poison the food they're using it could poison the food they're using so one of the things that we do is we so one of the things that we do is we so one of the things that we do is we start off with a koala food held at a start off with a koala food held at a start off with a koala food held at a distance and arranged in a way that distance and arranged in a way that distance and arranged in a way that minimizes the mistake so it could be minimizes the mistake so it could be minimizes the mistake so it could be safe we've got a dog with us we could safe we've got a dog with us we could safe we've got a dog with us we could have a baby gate up and we could hug the have a baby gate up and we could hug the have a baby gate up and we could hug the bucket or a pot of food at height where bucket or a pot of food at height where bucket or a pot of food at height where the doesn't even gonna try and jump but the doesn't even gonna try and jump but the doesn't even gonna try and jump but a moment we bring the pot out dogs a moment we bring the pot out dogs a moment we bring the pot out dogs getting for me and towards the bucket getting for me and towards the bucket getting for me and towards the bucket and so the moment they look we can mark and so the moment they look we can mark and so the moment they look we can mark and reinforce and so every time they see and reinforce and so every time they see and reinforce and so every time they see that pour out hi they just look towards that pour out hi they just look towards that pour out hi they just look towards a pot they get reinforced now there's no a pot they get reinforced now there's no a pot they get reinforced now there's no verbal cues verbal cues verbal cues there's no sit stay down leave don't there's no sit stay down leave don't there's no sit stay down leave don't touch we don't give them any kind of touch we don't give them any kind of touch we don't give them any kind of previously learned behaviors to engage previously learned behaviors to engage

17:11

previously learned behaviors to engage in all they're doing is a pop comes out in all they're doing is a pop comes out in all they're doing is a pop comes out a bucket comes out and the animal a bucket comes out and the animal a bucket comes out and the animal Orient's towards it and they get Orient's towards it and they get Orient's towards it and they get reinforced and we develop a station reinforced and we develop a station reinforced and we develop a station behavior now for me I want to think behavior now for me I want to think behavior now for me I want to think about the long-term physiology anatomy about the long-term physiology anatomy about the long-term physiology anatomy of the animal as well as learning of the animal as well as learning of the animal as well as learning history on how that's going to influence history on how that's going to influence history on how that's going to influence not just so when we train a behavior I not just so when we train a behavior I not just so when we train a behavior I don't want it to be something that we do don't want it to be something that we do don't want it to be something that we do and the animal can do now but it affects and the animal can do now but it affects and the animal can do now but it affects them negatively in the future so for them negatively in the future so for them negatively in the future so for example if I have a dog and I'm going to example if I have a dog and I'm going to example if I have a dog and I'm going to teach them to station by sitting or teach them to station by sitting or teach them to station by sitting or standing I have to be aware that as that standing I have to be aware that as that standing I have to be aware that as that dog gets older or even tomorrow when dog gets older or even tomorrow when dog gets older or even tomorrow when they wake up if they've got a sore leg they wake up if they've got a sore leg they wake up if they've got a sore leg then sitting might be slightly then sitting might be slightly then sitting might be slightly uncomfortable for them uncomfortable for them uncomfortable for them so I want to try and give them choices so I want to try and give them choices so I want to try and give them choices that allow them to engage but not that allow them to engage but not that allow them to engage but not necessarily be so restrictive that if necessarily be so restrictive that if necessarily be so restrictive that if they've got arthritis down the line it they've got arthritis down the line it they've got arthritis down the line it kind of puts them into conflict so what

17:56

kind of puts them into conflict so what kind of puts them into conflict so what I do is I say we teach a station let's I do is I say we teach a station let's I do is I say we teach a station let's give the animal a couple of options so give the animal a couple of options so give the animal a couple of options so they orient towards the bucket but they they orient towards the bucket but they they orient towards the bucket but they can choose to do it lying down sitting can choose to do it lying down sitting can choose to do it lying down sitting or standing and so I often say orient to or standing and so I often say orient to or standing and so I often say orient to the bucket with four feet on the floor the bucket with four feet on the floor the bucket with four feet on the floor and that can like I say that can be and that can like I say that can be and that can like I say that can be sitting lying down or standing so dog sitting lying down or standing so dog sitting lying down or standing so dog can choose which one they do then we can choose which one they do then we can choose which one they do then we lower the bucket slightly so that it can lower the bucket slightly so that it can lower the bucket slightly so that it can be put on to a surface or it can be put be put on to a surface or it can be put be put on to a surface or it can be put down onto the floor and you don't have down onto the floor and you don't have down onto the floor and you don't have to have it in your hand now when we're to have it in your hand now when we're to have it in your hand now when we're teaching this exercise what happens is teaching this exercise what happens is teaching this exercise what happens is by the time we bring the bucket lower if by the time we bring the bucket lower if by the time we bring the bucket lower if at any point we bring it too low and the at any point we bring it too low and the at any point we bring it too low and the animal engaged in the behavior we didn't animal engaged in the behavior we didn't animal engaged in the behavior we didn't want to say jumping towards a bucket all want to say jumping towards a bucket all want to say jumping towards a bucket all we need to do is go back a previous we need to do is go back a previous we need to do is go back a previous stepped and raising the bucket slightly stepped and raising the bucket slightly stepped and raising the bucket slightly higher so by doing that we're not higher so by doing that we're not higher so by doing that we're not punishing the behavior that's just punishing the behavior that's just

18:43

punishing the behavior that's just happened we're not trying to remove happened we're not trying to remove happened we're not trying to remove something the animal wants to get at something the animal wants to get at something the animal wants to get at well what we're doing is we're just well what we're doing is we're just well what we're doing is we're just giving an established cue because giving an established cue because giving an established cue because already you've practice holding the already you've practice holding the already you've practice holding the bucket high the animal looks up they get bucket high the animal looks up they get bucket high the animal looks up they get lots of reinforcement so now as you lots of reinforcement so now as you lots of reinforcement so now as you lower the bucket if there's a mistake lower the bucket if there's a mistake lower the bucket if there's a mistake that happens rather than saying I'm that happens rather than saying I'm that happens rather than saying I'm gonna hide the bucket or I'm gonna say I gonna hide the bucket or I'm gonna say I gonna hide the bucket or I'm gonna say I don't know why do is we give us a cue don't know why do is we give us a cue don't know why do is we give us a cue which has had previously successful which has had previously successful which has had previously successful repetitions by holding a slightly higher repetitions by holding a slightly higher repetitions by holding a slightly higher the animal Orient's get successfully the animal Orient's get successfully the animal Orient's get successfully reinforced and then we just really reinforced and then we just really reinforced and then we just really bringing that bucket down until it can bringing that bucket down until it can bringing that bucket down until it can be our height where like I say it's on be our height where like I say it's on be our height where like I say it's on an object surface or on the floor we're an object surface or on the floor we're an object surface or on the floor we're also watching body language and so we're also watching body language and so we're also watching body language and so we're teaching it in a way where the animals teaching it in a way where the animals teaching it in a way where the animals calm they're relaxed and the animal calm they're relaxed and the animal calm they're relaxed and the animal isn't standing there trying to jump into isn't standing there trying to jump into isn't standing there trying to jump into the bucket or shaking and shivering the bucket or shaking and shivering

19:26

the bucket or shaking and shivering around that and so by the time it's on around that and so by the time it's on around that and so by the time it's on that surface the animal is just quite that surface the animal is just quite that surface the animal is just quite relaxed they've learned if they just relaxed they've learned if they just relaxed they've learned if they just stand and good things happen if the stand and good things happen if the stand and good things happen if the animal chooses to look away from the animal chooses to look away from the animal chooses to look away from the bucket or they look in a different bucket or they look in a different bucket or they look in a different direction then we just allow that we direction then we just allow that we direction then we just allow that we don't say anything we don't rattle the don't say anything we don't rattle the don't say anything we don't rattle the bucket and we tend to use plastic little bucket and we tend to use plastic little bucket and we tend to use plastic little plastic buckets because they don't make plastic buckets because they don't make plastic buckets because they don't make a lot of noise and also the easy to you a lot of noise and also the easy to you a lot of noise and also the easy to you branch up and put into a pocket or bring branch up and put into a pocket or bring branch up and put into a pocket or bring out relatively easily without making out relatively easily without making out relatively easily without making lots of noise because if the dog is lots of noise because if the dog is lots of noise because if the dog is turning around us sniffing their butt or turning around us sniffing their butt or turning around us sniffing their butt or they've decided rather than looking at they've decided rather than looking at they've decided rather than looking at the bucket they want to look at the the bucket they want to look at the the bucket they want to look at the opposite end of the room opposite end of the room opposite end of the room that's fine all we're doing is allowing that's fine all we're doing is allowing that's fine all we're doing is allowing the animal to look at the environment the animal to look at the environment the animal to look at the environment and this what we call distractions we've and this what we call distractions we've and this what we call distractions we've come less reinforcing because the come less reinforcing because the come less reinforcing because the animals have a chance to look so when animals have a chance to look so when

20:10

animals have a chance to look so when they're ready they look back at the they're ready they look back at the they're ready they look back at the bucket and then it actually is more bucket and then it actually is more bucket and then it actually is more valuable because they've had a chance to valuable because they've had a chance to valuable because they've had a chance to do whatever else they needed to do the do whatever else they needed to do the do whatever else they needed to do the other thing if they do disengage and other thing if they do disengage and other thing if they do disengage and rather than trying to distract them back rather than trying to distract them back rather than trying to distract them back we think what we're doing is not we think what we're doing is not we think what we're doing is not reinforcing the behavior that we want to reinforcing the behavior that we want to reinforcing the behavior that we want to potentially what we need to do is change potentially what we need to do is change potentially what we need to do is change what we're using as a reinforcer to make what we're using as a reinforcer to make what we're using as a reinforcer to make sure it's strengthening the behavior sure it's strengthening the behavior sure it's strengthening the behavior that we want so by the time we've got to that we want so by the time we've got to that we want so by the time we've got to a point at least what I call stage one a point at least what I call stage one a point at least what I call stage one where the buckets on the floor and a where the buckets on the floor and a where the buckets on the floor and a level on a surface anytime the bucket level on a surface anytime the bucket level on a surface anytime the bucket comes out we've got an animal that runs comes out we've got an animal that runs comes out we've got an animal that runs towards it it stands or sits and lies towards it it stands or sits and lies towards it it stands or sits and lies down calmly focusing towards the bucket down calmly focusing towards the bucket down calmly focusing towards the bucket and you often see a body language which and you often see a body language which and you often see a body language which suggests the animals relaxed and happy suggests the animals relaxed and happy suggests the animals relaxed and happy and there's so much repetition and and there's so much repetition and and there's so much repetition and reinforcement has gone into this we've reinforcement has gone into this we've reinforcement has gone into this we've almost started to build a great

20:54

almost started to build a great almost started to build a great relationship with the caregiver where relationship with the caregiver where relationship with the caregiver where previously there might be a negative previously there might be a negative previously there might be a negative experience is like the vet's bad things experience is like the vet's bad things experience is like the vet's bad things have happened so when this bucket comes have happened so when this bucket comes have happened so when this bucket comes out there's safety attached to the out there's safety attached to the out there's safety attached to the bucket there's lots of positive bucket there's lots of positive bucket there's lots of positive reinforcement a great emotional states reinforcement a great emotional states reinforcement a great emotional states and that's the first step then what we and that's the first step then what we and that's the first step then what we do is we start teaching the animal about do is we start teaching the animal about do is we start teaching the animal about this conversation so when the bucket this conversation so when the bucket this conversation so when the bucket goes down onto the surface we just stand goes down onto the surface we just stand goes down onto the surface we just stand and wait when the animal looks at the and wait when the animal looks at the and wait when the animal looks at the bucket we might move our fingers on our bucket we might move our fingers on our bucket we might move our fingers on our lap or move our hands slightly and if lap or move our hands slightly and if lap or move our hands slightly and if the animal orient towards our hands we the animal orient towards our hands we the animal orient towards our hands we just move my hand straight back onto our just move my hand straight back onto our just move my hand straight back onto our lap if the animal continues looking lap if the animal continues looking lap if the animal continues looking towards the bucket as I fingers move towards the bucket as I fingers move towards the bucket as I fingers move we've mark and we reinforce them and I we've mark and we reinforce them and I we've mark and we reinforce them and I generally tend to reinforce on the floor generally tend to reinforce on the floor generally tend to reinforce on the floor or in front of the bucket around them or in front of the bucket around them or in front of the bucket around them from my hands because I want the animal from my hands because I want the animal from my hands because I want the animal to rather than be more en ting at my

21:40

to rather than be more en ting at my to rather than be more en ting at my hands and I'm touching them or examining hands and I'm touching them or examining hands and I'm touching them or examining them just to keep looking forward them just to keep looking forward them just to keep looking forward towards the bucket and what this starts towards the bucket and what this starts towards the bucket and what this starts doing is it starts teaching the animal I doing is it starts teaching the animal I doing is it starts teaching the animal I can get those human hands to move and I can get those human hands to move and I can get those human hands to move and I can get the human hands to stop moving can get the human hands to stop moving can get the human hands to stop moving because if they orient towards the because if they orient towards the because if they orient towards the bucket in a relaxed way those hands bucket in a relaxed way those hands bucket in a relaxed way those hands continue moving and they get reinforced continue moving and they get reinforced continue moving and they get reinforced if they look at the hands the hands if they look at the hands the hands if they look at the hands the hands return back to it's almost like baseline return back to it's almost like baseline return back to it's almost like baseline or station the lap and so if the animals or station the lap and so if the animals or station the lap and so if the animals want to stop the hands they just have to want to stop the hands they just have to want to stop the hands they just have to look away from the bucket and those look away from the bucket and those look away from the bucket and those hands stop moving and so it gives the hands stop moving and so it gives the hands stop moving and so it gives the animal some more control of their animal some more control of their animal some more control of their environment and it's quite predictable environment and it's quite predictable environment and it's quite predictable because they don't have to be trying to because they don't have to be trying to because they don't have to be trying to work work work what aspect alot bit of body language what aspect alot bit of body language what aspect alot bit of body language for new people so if they've been for new people so if they've been for new people so if they've been practicing with me and they go to the practicing with me and they go to the practicing with me and they go to the vet the rules are still the same those vet the rules are still the same those

22:21

vet the rules are still the same those hands either stop moving or they start hands either stop moving or they start hands either stop moving or they start moving contingent on what the animals moving contingent on what the animals moving contingent on what the animals doing and basically that's the basic doing and basically that's the basic doing and basically that's the basic premise of the bucket game and then we premise of the bucket game and then we premise of the bucket game and then we build up to teaching those hands start build up to teaching those hands start build up to teaching those hands start moving around the learner and pretending moving around the learner and pretending moving around the learner and pretending to look at the ears pretending to touch to look at the ears pretending to touch to look at the ears pretending to touch pretending to groom until we can get pretending to groom until we can get pretending to groom until we can get close enough to be able to touch them close enough to be able to touch them close enough to be able to touch them and look in the ears and we can even use and look in the ears and we can even use and look in the ears and we can even use the bucket game to teach the learner to the bucket game to teach the learner to the bucket game to teach the learner to tell us when we can pick up ear drops or tell us when we can pick up ear drops or tell us when we can pick up ear drops or things like that so say I have the things like that so say I have the things like that so say I have the bucket down and I have some ear drops bucket down and I have some ear drops bucket down and I have some ear drops either next to the bucket or further either next to the bucket or further either next to the bucket or further away depending on the animals history away depending on the animals history away depending on the animals history with those ear drops and so in the with those ear drops and so in the with those ear drops and so in the animal Orient's in the bucket my hands animal Orient's in the bucket my hands animal Orient's in the bucket my hands start moving towards that ear drops and start moving towards that ear drops and start moving towards that ear drops and if my hands move make an approximation if my hands move make an approximation if my hands move make an approximation to the ear drops and the dog continues to the ear drops and the dog continues to the ear drops and the dog continues in the bucket they get reinforced if in the bucket they get reinforced if in the bucket they get reinforced if they turn around and they look towards

23:06

they turn around and they look towards they turn around and they look towards me my hands just go back from my lap now me my hands just go back from my lap now me my hands just go back from my lap now if the animal does turn around and look if the animal does turn around and look if the animal does turn around and look at my hands at my hands at my hands that gives me information if it then she that gives me information if it then she that gives me information if it then she tells me that my criteria might be too tells me that my criteria might be too tells me that my criteria might be too high so I need to reduce the criteria high so I need to reduce the criteria high so I need to reduce the criteria slightly so if I go to move my hand slightly so if I go to move my hand slightly so if I go to move my hand within two centimeters of the ear drops within two centimeters of the ear drops within two centimeters of the ear drops and the animal keeps turning around and and the animal keeps turning around and and the animal keeps turning around and looking I'm not just going to keep looking I'm not just going to keep looking I'm not just going to keep repeating the same thing I'm gonna repeating the same thing I'm gonna repeating the same thing I'm gonna reduce my criteria so I might move my reduce my criteria so I might move my reduce my criteria so I might move my hand towards the ear drops but stop a hand towards the ear drops but stop a hand towards the ear drops but stop a lot further away so the animal could lot further away so the animal could lot further away so the animal could continue being comfortable looking at continue being comfortable looking at continue being comfortable looking at the bucket and not need to tell me to the bucket and not need to tell me to the bucket and not need to tell me to stop moving my hands towards those ear stop moving my hands towards those ear stop moving my hands towards those ear drops so eventually what will happen if drops so eventually what will happen if drops so eventually what will happen if the animal look at the bucket I can pick the animal look at the bucket I can pick the animal look at the bucket I can pick the whole bottle of ear drops take it the whole bottle of ear drops take it the whole bottle of ear drops take it towards the ear and if at any point they towards the ear and if at any point they towards the ear and if at any point they want to stop rather than having to snap want to stop rather than having to snap want to stop rather than having to snap growl growl growl run away all they need to do is just run away all they need to do is just

23:47

run away all they need to do is just turn their head and the bowl gets put turn their head and the bowl gets put turn their head and the bowl gets put back down and this builds a lot of trust back down and this builds a lot of trust back down and this builds a lot of trust it allows the animal to have control it allows the animal to have control it allows the animal to have control over the environment which is what over the environment which is what over the environment which is what they're born to do and so I find that they're born to do and so I find that they're born to do and so I find that for new caregivers people who are not for new caregivers people who are not for new caregivers people who are not necessarily the most experienced if they necessarily the most experienced if they necessarily the most experienced if they can treat the animal the best or I'm can treat the animal the best or I'm can treat the animal the best or I'm working with a peg is not professional working with a peg is not professional working with a peg is not professional at least they can be watching is the at least they can be watching is the at least they can be watching is the dog's head looking at the bucket or is dog's head looking at the bucket or is dog's head looking at the bucket or is it not looking at the bucket and later it not looking at the bucket and later it not looking at the bucket and later on as they become more interested in on as they become more interested in on as they become more interested in this game they can start to look for this game they can start to look for this game they can start to look for more nuanced bits of body language and more nuanced bits of body language and more nuanced bits of body language and become less about just the head position become less about just the head position become less about just the head position or watching the whole animal and the or watching the whole animal and the or watching the whole animal and the whole learner whole learner whole learner and then one other aspect which we add and then one other aspect which we add and then one other aspect which we add into this it's not just about food in into this it's not just about food in into this it's not just about food in the bucket so we're not working with the bucket so we're not working with the bucket so we're not working with animals saying the only way animals saying the only way animals saying the only way food is by accessing the bucket or food is by accessing the bucket or food is by accessing the bucket or looking at the bucket we want to make looking at the bucket we want to make

24:32

looking at the bucket we want to make sure that they can get food from other sure that they can get food from other sure that they can get food from other places so often when I'm working on this places so often when I'm working on this places so often when I'm working on this I'll have a score I'll have a puzzle I'll have a score I'll have a puzzle I'll have a score I'll have a puzzle feeder or I'll have a snuffle map with feeder or I'll have a snuffle map with feeder or I'll have a snuffle map with food in there or bits of food on the food in there or bits of food on the food in there or bits of food on the floor so if the animal doesn't find it floor so if the animal doesn't find it floor so if the animal doesn't find it reinforcing staying with me if I'm not reinforcing staying with me if I'm not reinforcing staying with me if I'm not doing a good enough job maintaining that doing a good enough job maintaining that doing a good enough job maintaining that behavior with me or if they need a break behavior with me or if they need a break behavior with me or if they need a break they can walk off and go and pick this they can walk off and go and pick this they can walk off and go and pick this top corner up and what you're and what top corner up and what you're and what top corner up and what you're and what we find is a lot of animals will walk we find is a lot of animals will walk we find is a lot of animals will walk both end of the column we'll go get some both end of the column we'll go get some both end of the column we'll go get some of the food on the floor actually they of the food on the floor actually they of the food on the floor actually they find it much more reinforce them to come find it much more reinforce them to come find it much more reinforce them to come back and play the game or the same type back and play the game or the same type back and play the game or the same type of food but because they're almost of food but because they're almost of food but because they're almost contra freeloading they're doing contra freeloading they're doing contra freeloading they're doing something and they're being able to something and they're being able to something and they're being able to control the outcomes and they find that control the outcomes and they find that control the outcomes and they find that reinforcing to you see there they're reinforcing to you see there they're reinforcing to you see there they're almost contour free learning can you almost contour free learning can you almost contour free learning can you build on it yeah so contra freeloading

25:17

build on it yeah so contra freeloading build on it yeah so contra freeloading there's research that demonstrates that there's research that demonstrates that there's research that demonstrates that given the opportunity so if say you've given the opportunity so if say you've given the opportunity so if say you've got an animal say a bird and there's a got an animal say a bird and there's a got an animal say a bird and there's a food some nuts and there's a container food some nuts and there's a container food some nuts and there's a container where they may have to manipulate the where they may have to manipulate the where they may have to manipulate the container for not to be released given container for not to be released given container for not to be released given certain conditions those animals will certain conditions those animals will certain conditions those animals will most often leave the free bowl of food most often leave the free bowl of food most often leave the free bowl of food and walk over and manipulate an object and walk over and manipulate an object and walk over and manipulate an object or press a button or do something but or press a button or do something but or press a button or do something but not to be released and one of the not to be released and one of the not to be released and one of the theories behind this is that by just theories behind this is that by just theories behind this is that by just having the bowl of food there they're having the bowl of food there they're having the bowl of food there they're not really doing anything there's not really doing anything there's not really doing anything there's nothing they have to do to control an nothing they have to do to control an nothing they have to do to control an outcome whereas by walking over and outcome whereas by walking over and outcome whereas by walking over and pressing a button or lifting up a little pressing a button or lifting up a little pressing a button or lifting up a little lid the animal engages in a behavior and lid the animal engages in a behavior and lid the animal engages in a behavior and it pays off and they can control the it pays off and they can control the it pays off and they can control the environment in some way so it allows environment in some way so it allows environment in some way so it allows them to actually have some small element them to actually have some small element them to actually have some small element of control over the environment and of control over the environment and of control over the environment and often we'll find animals will leave free

26:05

often we'll find animals will leave free often we'll find animals will leave free food and actually spend time engaging in food and actually spend time engaging in food and actually spend time engaging in little tasks where they will actually little tasks where they will actually little tasks where they will actually get the same food that's available to get the same food that's available to get the same food that's available to them freely but by doing this small task them freely but by doing this small task them freely but by doing this small task or doing something and so it just gives or doing something and so it just gives or doing something and so it just gives them another opportunity to engage in them another opportunity to engage in them another opportunity to engage in behaviors and be able to control the behaviors and be able to control the behaviors and be able to control the environment and gain outcomes and you environment and gain outcomes and you environment and gain outcomes and you mentioned that this is great for people mentioned that this is great for people mentioned that this is great for people who might not necessarily be starting who might not necessarily be starting who might not necessarily be starting with the best trust of the animal yet with the best trust of the animal yet with the best trust of the animal yet with the highest trust accounts have with the highest trust accounts have with the highest trust accounts have very bound they're over time in these very bound they're over time in these very bound they're over time in these situations of the dog or the animal has situations of the dog or the animal has situations of the dog or the animal has an option to go and get an option to go and get an option to go and get for free that the frequency of behaviour for free that the frequency of behaviour for free that the frequency of behaviour shift with regards to how relationships shift with regards to how relationships shift with regards to how relationships develop or have you found that the develop or have you found that the develop or have you found that the animals engaged consistently in the bat animals engaged consistently in the bat animals engaged consistently in the bat game and their choice to or the ability game and their choice to or the ability game and their choice to or the ability to have choice from the start does it to have choice from the start does it to have choice from the start does it make sense yeah definitely so I find make sense yeah definitely so I find make sense yeah definitely so I find that like depending on the environment

26:59

that like depending on the environment that like depending on the environment so it could be if we're making something so it could be if we're making something so it could be if we're making something we're making it harder for the animal to we're making it harder for the animal to we're making it harder for the animal to succeed so sometimes I could be doing a succeed so sometimes I could be doing a succeed so sometimes I could be doing a training session and I've had a bad day training session and I've had a bad day training session and I've had a bad day or whether whatever reason I'm not or whether whatever reason I'm not or whether whatever reason I'm not setting up the environment best for my setting up the environment best for my setting up the environment best for my learner to learn and what's great is the learner to learn and what's great is the learner to learn and what's great is the animal just goes okay forget you I'm animal just goes okay forget you I'm animal just goes okay forget you I'm just going to walk over and play with just going to walk over and play with just going to walk over and play with that stuff Kong whereas often when we that stuff Kong whereas often when we that stuff Kong whereas often when we teach and we train we say where it's teach and we train we say where it's teach and we train we say where it's positive reinforcement trainers and we positive reinforcement trainers and we positive reinforcement trainers and we make it sound like we've hit the gold make it sound like we've hit the gold make it sound like we've hit the gold standard but we haven't because I can standard but we haven't because I can standard but we haven't because I can say I'm teaching my dog or my parrot or say I'm teaching my dog or my parrot or say I'm teaching my dog or my parrot or my horse using positive reinforcement my horse using positive reinforcement my horse using positive reinforcement but the animal doesn't have anywhere but the animal doesn't have anywhere but the animal doesn't have anywhere else to go because they're in the stable else to go because they're in the stable else to go because they're in the stable they're in a cage or my dog either they're in a cage or my dog either they're in a cage or my dog either interacts with me where I've got a interacts with me where I've got a interacts with me where I've got a clicker and some treats or there's no clicker and some treats or there's no clicker and some treats or there's no other way for them to access that food other way for them to access that food

27:41

other way for them to access that food because if they want the food they have because if they want the food they have because if they want the food they have to interact towards me whereas as soon to interact towards me whereas as soon to interact towards me whereas as soon as we put that stuff kongou while we're as we put that stuff kongou while we're as we put that stuff kongou while we're training with food now we're gonna have training with food now we're gonna have training with food now we're gonna have to do a better job motivating and making to do a better job motivating and making to do a better job motivating and making it reinforcing for the learner to stay it reinforcing for the learner to stay it reinforcing for the learner to stay with us we're not just relying on that with us we're not just relying on that with us we're not just relying on that food to keep the animal day if that food to keep the animal day if that food to keep the animal day if that makes sense so what starts happening is makes sense so what starts happening is makes sense so what starts happening is it really makes us better what we do and it really makes us better what we do and it really makes us better what we do and takes the onus off the animal has to do takes the onus off the animal has to do takes the onus off the animal has to do this and even though we say we're using this and even though we say we're using this and even though we say we're using positive reinforcement for me that's not positive reinforcement for me that's not positive reinforcement for me that's not the godsdamn that it's about really the godsdamn that it's about really the godsdamn that it's about really empowering our learners giving them empowering our learners giving them empowering our learners giving them choice and control and also we want the choice and control and also we want the choice and control and also we want the animal to really want to be there so I animal to really want to be there so I animal to really want to be there so I think by having so if we're using a toy think by having so if we're using a toy think by having so if we're using a toy having some free toy or as well then having some free toy or as well then having some free toy or as well then seeing if the animals how we can arrange seeing if the animals how we can arrange seeing if the animals how we can arrange the environment so the animal wants to the environment so the animal wants to the environment so the animal wants to work with us and the toy that posed to work with us and the toy that posed to

28:27

work with us and the toy that posed to just pick up the free toys and play with just pick up the free toys and play with just pick up the free toys and play with those is what we want to be doing so those is what we want to be doing so those is what we want to be doing so it's not just about saying we really it's not just about saying we really it's not just about saying we really want to lift that and we want to move it want to lift that and we want to move it want to lift that and we want to move it you almost want to be there so if we you almost want to be there so if we you almost want to be there so if we make a mistake then the animal doesn't make a mistake then the animal doesn't make a mistake then the animal doesn't have to suffer so if we're making it too have to suffer so if we're making it too have to suffer so if we're making it too hard the animal does have to keep hard the animal does have to keep hard the animal does have to keep failing and then have to get frustrated failing and then have to get frustrated failing and then have to get frustrated because they failed the animal can because they failed the animal can because they failed the animal can simply just walk off and pick up a stuff simply just walk off and pick up a stuff simply just walk off and pick up a stuff call or go in find freaks doing call or go in find freaks doing call or go in find freaks doing something else and did you normally put something else and did you normally put something else and did you normally put the same food items or a toy the same food items or a toy the same food items or a toy or whatever reinforcer you're using G is or whatever reinforcer you're using G is or whatever reinforcer you're using G is the same items or D mix it up or to use the same items or D mix it up or to use the same items or D mix it up or to use different ones and the toys in the different ones and the toys in the different ones and the toys in the Kong's and it varies so I love them try Kong's and it varies so I love them try Kong's and it varies so I love them try and start with the same food but I've and start with the same food but I've and start with the same food but I've got with me in the stuff Col more in a got with me in the stuff Col more in a got with me in the stuff Col more in a puzzle feeder or just attached to the puzzle feeder or just attached to the puzzle feeder or just attached to the branches there's some other nuts and branches there's some other nuts and branches there's some other nuts and things that they can access by things that they can access by

29:18

things that they can access by interacting with the toy so they can do interacting with the toy so they can do interacting with the toy so they can do something else to get similar food items something else to get similar food items something else to get similar food items but then I may also have depending on but then I may also have depending on but then I may also have depending on how I'm training the individual learner how I'm training the individual learner how I'm training the individual learner I might have a different variety of food I might have a different variety of food I might have a different variety of food on me compared to what's in the puzzle on me compared to what's in the puzzle on me compared to what's in the puzzle feeder sometimes it's the same so it feeder sometimes it's the same so it feeder sometimes it's the same so it depends on the individual learner in depends on the individual learner in depends on the individual learner in front of me and also the environment and front of me and also the environment and front of me and also the environment and some other factors so that varies but I some other factors so that varies but I some other factors so that varies but I warn at the minimum I won't always do warn at the minimum I won't always do warn at the minimum I won't always do most boring food in the puzzle feeder most boring food in the puzzle feeder most boring food in the puzzle feeder and then have cheese or something really and then have cheese or something really and then have cheese or something really exciting on me I'll try and have some of exciting on me I'll try and have some of exciting on me I'll try and have some of what I've got or the same value of life what I've got or the same value of life what I've got or the same value of life got in the puzzle feeder to fantasy and got in the puzzle feeder to fantasy and got in the puzzle feeder to fantasy and everything you've just said there at the everything you've just said there at the everything you've just said there at the buckle game was beautifully described buckle game was beautifully described buckle game was beautifully described you did it really I think you did a you did it really I think you did a you did it really I think you did a really wonderful job of helping people really wonderful job of helping people really wonderful job of helping people and helping me as well understand what and helping me as well understand what and helping me as well understand what the bucket game is and why it's helpful the bucket game is and why it's helpful

30:03

the bucket game is and why it's helpful and you see this great for maybe people and you see this great for maybe people and you see this great for maybe people teaching others it's a great kind of teaching others it's a great kind of teaching others it's a great kind of exercise to get pet owners or people new exercise to get pet owners or people new exercise to get pet owners or people new to animal training started would you say to animal training started would you say to animal training started would you say that definitely yes because like I say that definitely yes because like I say that definitely yes because like I say realize it's less about what the animal realize it's less about what the animal realize it's less about what the animal already understood we think the animal already understood we think the animal already understood we think the animal already knows understands by saying oh already knows understands by saying oh already knows understands by saying oh he knows what's it means or what leave he knows what's it means or what leave he knows what's it means or what leave me so when you're holed out the food I'm me so when you're holed out the food I'm me so when you're holed out the food I'm just gonna say leave because we're not just gonna say leave because we're not just gonna say leave because we're not using any of the verbal cues that we've using any of the verbal cues that we've using any of the verbal cues that we've told previously but it just basically told previously but it just basically told previously but it just basically starting afresh and also really gets new starting afresh and also really gets new starting afresh and also really gets new learners human learners focused on a learners human learners focused on a learners human learners focused on a hands-off a way of teaching but also hands-off a way of teaching but also hands-off a way of teaching but also learning about the animal does have a learning about the animal does have a learning about the animal does have a voice in this conversation it's not voice in this conversation it's not voice in this conversation it's not about I do you listen or you have to do about I do you listen or you have to do about I do you listen or you have to do what I tell you it's about the human what I tell you it's about the human what I tell you it's about the human learner learning to use their behavior learner learning to use their behavior learner learning to use their behavior arrange the environment so that the arrange the environment so that the arrange the environment so that the animal learner wants to engage in this

30:53

animal learner wants to engage in this animal learner wants to engage in this conversation and also from a new train conversation and also from a new train conversation and also from a new train or new learner coming into this field I or new learner coming into this field I or new learner coming into this field I think it's so important that they learn think it's so important that they learn think it's so important that they learn it's not just about we can control it's not just about we can control it's not just about we can control behavior but it's about respecting the behavior but it's about respecting the behavior but it's about respecting the individual organism in front of individual organism in front of individual organism in front of the individual learner and that's just the individual learner and that's just the individual learner and that's just as important so I think training has as important so I think training has as important so I think training has become too much about oh I can do this become too much about oh I can do this become too much about oh I can do this and I can change the behavior and we and I can change the behavior and we and I can change the behavior and we almost lost or we're losing let's take a almost lost or we're losing let's take a almost lost or we're losing let's take a step back and actually understand our step back and actually understand our step back and actually understand our learner and observe what we're seeing learner and observe what we're seeing learner and observe what we're seeing and what we've got in front of us before and what we've got in front of us before and what we've got in front of us before we intervene so too often people say all we intervene so too often people say all we intervene so too often people say all the dogs jumping up let's just teach the dogs jumping up let's just teach the dogs jumping up let's just teach four feet on the floor but have we four feet on the floor but have we four feet on the floor but have we stopped to look at how the animal stopped to look at how the animal stopped to look at how the animal behaves how do they jump up course the behaves how do they jump up course the behaves how do they jump up course the function of that behavior before we function of that behavior before we function of that behavior before we start deciding what we're gonna do to start deciding what we're gonna do to start deciding what we're gonna do to change that behavior what is a function change that behavior what is a function change that behavior what is a function are jumping up so for one animal it

31:40

are jumping up so for one animal it are jumping up so for one animal it could be gaining a scape or avoidance could be gaining a scape or avoidance could be gaining a scape or avoidance now if we just teach for feet on the now if we just teach for feet on the now if we just teach for feet on the floor how does that allow that learner floor how does that allow that learner floor how does that allow that learner to still have a voice to say I want to to still have a voice to say I want to to still have a voice to say I want to escape or avoid this situation so I escape or avoid this situation so I escape or avoid this situation so I think using a game like the bucket game think using a game like the bucket game think using a game like the bucket game to teach new trainers or caregivers to teach new trainers or caregivers to teach new trainers or caregivers really teaches respect for the animal really teaches respect for the animal really teaches respect for the animal and also makes them a better learner and also makes them a better learner and also makes them a better learner because they learn they can't just make because they learn they can't just make because they learn they can't just make the animal do things and they have to the animal do things and they have to the animal do things and they have to respect that conversation I love it and respect that conversation I love it and respect that conversation I love it and then I move on but I just have a few then I move on but I just have a few then I move on but I just have a few more things I want to build on before we more things I want to build on before we more things I want to build on before we do you said grant the start of your do you said grant the start of your do you said grant the start of your answer there there this isn't a new answer there there this isn't a new answer there there this isn't a new concept you didn't come up with this concept you didn't come up with this concept you didn't come up with this concept concept concept you used the word cocktail you created a you used the word cocktail you created a you used the word cocktail you created a kind of a new cocktail of thinking about kind of a new cocktail of thinking about kind of a new cocktail of thinking about this back bingo let's go back to when this back bingo let's go back to when this back bingo let's go back to when you started to fish think about doing you started to fish think about doing you started to fish think about doing the bucket game what - what's evolved to the bucket game what - what's evolved to

32:26

the bucket game what - what's evolved to be the back again right at the start be the back again right at the start be the back again right at the start were you thinking about all of those were you thinking about all of those were you thinking about all of those things like the long-term you mentioned things like the long-term you mentioned things like the long-term you mentioned the long-term thinking about what's most the long-term thinking about what's most the long-term thinking about what's most comfortable for the dog and using I comfortable for the dog and using I comfortable for the dog and using I think you see the plastic bucket so it think you see the plastic bucket so it think you see the plastic bucket so it doesn't make as much noise was it kind doesn't make as much noise was it kind doesn't make as much noise was it kind of stuff has evolved as to bucket games of stuff has evolved as to bucket games of stuff has evolved as to bucket games evolved or did you to kind of think evolved or did you to kind of think evolved or did you to kind of think through all of the stuff right at the through all of the stuff right at the through all of the stuff right at the start start start yeah so know this was a journey and yeah so know this was a journey and yeah so know this was a journey and during different stops of this journey during different stops of this journey during different stops of this journey the bucket game was developed and is the bucket game was developed and is the bucket game was developed and is still developing I think there's still developing I think there's still developing I think there's something that I say well this is it something that I say well this is it something that I say well this is it that's done then there's something wrong that's done then there's something wrong that's done then there's something wrong with that because as my knowledge with that because as my knowledge with that because as my knowledge changes and my learning changes so I'm changes and my learning changes so I'm changes and my learning changes so I'm hopefully gonna know different things to hopefully gonna know different things to hopefully gonna know different things to what I know now in two weeks or in six what I know now in two weeks or in six what I know now in two weeks or in six months time and so I want to constantly months time and so I want to constantly months time and so I want to constantly be updating what I would call the bucket be updating what I would call the bucket be updating what I would call the bucket game based on new learning and new

33:11

game based on new learning and new game based on new learning and new information so I think it's an evolving information so I think it's an evolving information so I think it's an evolving program all the time and the printables program all the time and the printables program all the time and the printables are giving choice and control that are giving choice and control that are giving choice and control that underlie that but it's the way we apply underlie that but it's the way we apply underlie that but it's the way we apply it the art it the art it the art people email me videos of them doing a people email me videos of them doing a people email me videos of them doing a game or their version of the bucket game game or their version of the bucket game game or their version of the bucket game and you have the underlying science but and you have the underlying science but and you have the underlying science but you've also got the artistry the way you've also got the artistry the way you've also got the artistry the way people apply and you think oh that's people apply and you think oh that's people apply and you think oh that's fantastic and that could work really fantastic and that could work really fantastic and that could work really well in this situation so I think it's well in this situation so I think it's well in this situation so I think it's something that's continually developing something that's continually developing something that's continually developing and progressing and originally a bucket and progressing and originally a bucket and progressing and originally a bucket game do you have a name it was just game do you have a name it was just game do you have a name it was just something I would teach and I would use something I would teach and I would use something I would teach and I would use in lots of different situations and I'm in lots of different situations and I'm in lots of different situations and I'm not a big fan of just labeling something not a big fan of just labeling something not a big fan of just labeling something and saying this is it do it because of and saying this is it do it because of and saying this is it do it because of me when we do something or we apply me when we do something or we apply me when we do something or we apply something we do it for a reason and we something we do it for a reason and we something we do it for a reason and we first of all we want to understand what first of all we want to understand what first of all we want to understand what we're seeing in front of us we want to we're seeing in front of us we want to

33:55

we're seeing in front of us we want to understand the behavior before we try understand the behavior before we try understand the behavior before we try and change it so I don't want people to and change it so I don't want people to and change it so I don't want people to say well this is a list a recipe sheet say well this is a list a recipe sheet say well this is a list a recipe sheet because those recipe sheets need to be because those recipe sheets need to be because those recipe sheets need to be customized and changed a good chef is customized and changed a good chef is customized and changed a good chef is able to take some ingredients and say able to take some ingredients and say able to take some ingredients and say well I can decrease this I can increase well I can decrease this I can increase well I can decrease this I can increase this spice I can do this with this this spice I can do this with this this spice I can do this with this ingredient and they can really change it ingredient and they can really change it ingredient and they can really change it whereas someone who doesn't really whereas someone who doesn't really whereas someone who doesn't really understand cooking to that level can put understand cooking to that level can put understand cooking to that level can put together one recipe but they won't know together one recipe but they won't know together one recipe but they won't know how to really customize or change that how to really customize or change that how to really customize or change that recipe accordingly I want trainers and recipe accordingly I want trainers and recipe accordingly I want trainers and animal caregivers to be able to animal caregivers to be able to animal caregivers to be able to customize those recipes I was teaching customize those recipes I was teaching customize those recipes I was teaching that workshop and we used to just use that workshop and we used to just use that workshop and we used to just use containers like a plastic pot and I was containers like a plastic pot and I was containers like a plastic pot and I was in the States and we went to Target and in the States and we went to Target and in the States and we went to Target and they had a dollar section and they had they had a dollar section and they had they had a dollar section and they had some buckets I think originally little some buckets I think originally little some buckets I think originally little metal buckets and so I thought oh they metal buckets and so I thought oh they metal buckets and so I thought oh they won't work well for that exercise so I

34:40

won't work well for that exercise so I won't work well for that exercise so I bought them and I was traveling around bought them and I was traveling around bought them and I was traveling around different places and I was teaching at different places and I was teaching at different places and I was teaching at Tilly farm which is Sara Fisher a Tilly farm which is Sara Fisher a Tilly farm which is Sara Fisher a fantastic trainer in the UK and she's a fantastic trainer in the UK and she's a fantastic trainer in the UK and she's a t-touch practitioner she runs a lot of t-touch practitioner she runs a lot of t-touch practitioner she runs a lot of teacher stuff in the UK I was teaching teacher stuff in the UK I was teaching teacher stuff in the UK I was teaching with her a couple of years ago and she with her a couple of years ago and she with her a couple of years ago and she almost kind of saw the game that we were almost kind of saw the game that we were almost kind of saw the game that we were playing as an exercise and she goes oh playing as an exercise and she goes oh playing as an exercise and she goes oh what's that bucket game thing that what's that bucket game thing that what's that bucket game thing that you're playing and she said have you you're playing and she said have you you're playing and she said have you seen these plastic buckets they seem seen these plastic buckets they seem seen these plastic buckets they seem quite convenient we could try and use quite convenient we could try and use quite convenient we could try and use those rather than the metal bucket I those rather than the metal bucket I those rather than the metal bucket I thought that was a genius idea thought that was a genius idea thought that was a genius idea and then from that kind of she tweeted and then from that kind of she tweeted and then from that kind of she tweeted about what she'd see and during that about what she'd see and during that about what she'd see and during that workshop or what we've been learning and workshop or what we've been learning and workshop or what we've been learning and she was working with the dog and dogs she was working with the dog and dogs she was working with the dog and dogs home in the UK they were thinking about home in the UK they were thinking about home in the UK they were thinking about putting the dog to sleep because they've putting the dog to sleep because they've putting the dog to sleep because they've run out of options or choices or they're run out of options or choices or they're run out of options or choices or they're thinking there's not much they can do

35:25

thinking there's not much they can do thinking there's not much they can do and so after the workshop she was and so after the workshop she was and so after the workshop she was consulting at this organisation and she consulting at this organisation and she consulting at this organisation and she decided to use what we now call the decided to use what we now call the decided to use what we now call the bucket game in that situation at bucket game in that situation at bucket game in that situation at result and so she owes tweets she has a result and so she owes tweets she has a result and so she owes tweets she has a great point of interest tweeting about great point of interest tweeting about great point of interest tweeting about it so after she tweeted you kind of it so after she tweeted you kind of it so after she tweeted you kind of people like oh what's this bucket game people like oh what's this bucket game people like oh what's this bucket game thing that you're talking about we want thing that you're talking about we want thing that you're talking about we want to learn more about it and that's how to learn more about it and that's how to learn more about it and that's how the name came about the bucket game and the name came about the bucket game and the name came about the bucket game and so yeah it's an evolving journey when so yeah it's an evolving journey when so yeah it's an evolving journey when people who come on workshops or come to people who come on workshops or come to people who come on workshops or come to some events I teach if they came last some events I teach if they came last some events I teach if they came last year the year before and then they come year the year before and then they come year the year before and then they come next year they're probably gonna hear a next year they're probably gonna hear a next year they're probably gonna hear a different version or slightly upgraded different version or slightly upgraded different version or slightly upgraded version the bucket game based on the version the bucket game based on the version the bucket game based on the information that I've developed what information that I've developed what information that I've developed what I've learned so keep tuned for a bucket I've learned so keep tuned for a bucket I've learned so keep tuned for a bucket game version 2018 it's gonna be game version 2018 it's gonna be game version 2018 it's gonna be something that's continued changing with something that's continued changing with something that's continued changing with the knowledge and information that we

36:11

the knowledge and information that we the knowledge and information that we gained yeah I'm excited they're you know gained yeah I'm excited they're you know gained yeah I'm excited they're you know people are a part of this journey as people are a part of this journey as people are a part of this journey as well and it's now a community project well and it's now a community project well and it's now a community project yeah definitely and it's something that yeah definitely and it's something that yeah definitely and it's something that I don't want people to think you have to I don't want people to think you have to I don't want people to think you have to have a bucket because actually when we have a bucket because actually when we have a bucket because actually when we really focus on that it's about the really focus on that it's about the really focus on that it's about the underlying principles is the target that underlying principles is the target that underlying principles is the target that we're using or a station behavior not we're using or a station behavior not we're using or a station behavior not stun when people teach a station stun when people teach a station stun when people teach a station behavior they teach one behavior and so behavior they teach one behavior and so behavior they teach one behavior and so they teach the animal to station what they teach the animal to station what they teach the animal to station what they label as stationing but then if the they label as stationing but then if the they label as stationing but then if the animal isn't doing that specific animal isn't doing that specific animal isn't doing that specific behavior they will often riku so for an behavior they will often riku so for an behavior they will often riku so for an example is if I have a dolphin in front example is if I have a dolphin in front example is if I have a dolphin in front of me and the station behavior for the of me and the station behavior for the of me and the station behavior for the dolphin is to be in a vertical position dolphin is to be in a vertical position dolphin is to be in a vertical position with the head up with the eyes out of with the head up with the eyes out of with the head up with the eyes out of water facing towards like just in front water facing towards like just in front water facing towards like just in front of me if that dolphin is turning around of me if that dolphin is turning around of me if that dolphin is turning around or they're lying on their side or or they're lying on their side or

36:54

or they're lying on their side or they're looking in a different direction they're looking in a different direction they're looking in a different direction then for me part of the principles a then for me part of the principles a then for me part of the principles a bucket game is I just wait for a moment bucket game is I just wait for a moment bucket game is I just wait for a moment so if the animal is looking around I so if the animal is looking around I so if the animal is looking around I don't say touch or watch or look at me don't say touch or watch or look at me don't say touch or watch or look at me oh I don't cue them to me station oh I don't cue them to me station oh I don't cue them to me station because when they're turning around and because when they're turning around and because when they're turning around and then looking away from you they're doing then looking away from you they're doing then looking away from you they're doing something else that behavior has something else that behavior has something else that behavior has function it could be they want to escape function it could be they want to escape function it could be they want to escape or avoid having a conversation with me or avoid having a conversation with me or avoid having a conversation with me because I'm it's not very reinforcing as because I'm it's not very reinforcing as because I'm it's not very reinforcing as punishing or it could be that an animal punishing or it could be that an animal punishing or it could be that an animal over there is giving off signals that over there is giving off signals that over there is giving off signals that might be made worse if this animal turns might be made worse if this animal turns might be made worse if this animal turns away or the animals showing slightly away or the animals showing slightly away or the animals showing slightly aggressive behavior so this animal aggressive behavior so this animal aggressive behavior so this animal doesn't want to turn and look at me doesn't want to turn and look at me doesn't want to turn and look at me because they need to be focusing on because they need to be focusing on because they need to be focusing on what's going on over there it could be what's going on over there it could be what's going on over there it could be that they're slightly uncomfortable that they're slightly uncomfortable that they're slightly uncomfortable they're in pain and so rather than just they're in pain and so rather than just they're in pain and so rather than just coming to a training session and saying coming to a training session and saying

37:37

coming to a training session and saying well the animal is on station thinks I'm well the animal is on station thinks I'm well the animal is on station thinks I'm going to give a cue and because it's going to give a cue and because it's going to give a cue and because it's positive reinforcement I'm holding our positive reinforcement I'm holding our positive reinforcement I'm holding our target stick and the animal touch is a target stick and the animal touch is a target stick and the animal touch is a target I click on tree hold on a second target I click on tree hold on a second target I click on tree hold on a second why was the animal why was the animal why was the animal in the first place looking around or in the first place looking around or in the first place looking around or doing something else which didn't meet doing something else which didn't meet doing something else which didn't meet that focus to the bucket or focus to the that focus to the bucket or focus to the that focus to the bucket or focus to the trainer behavior and so for me it's trainer behavior and so for me it's trainer behavior and so for me it's those underlying principles that we use those underlying principles that we use those underlying principles that we use that fall in the bucket game it's not that fall in the bucket game it's not that fall in the bucket game it's not necessarily have to have a bucket think necessarily have to have a bucket think necessarily have to have a bucket think about how what we teach influences the about how what we teach influences the about how what we teach influences the animals physical structure so if it's a animals physical structure so if it's a animals physical structure so if it's a small dog and part of their station small dog and part of their station small dog and part of their station behavior is to have head up and look behavior is to have head up and look behavior is to have head up and look towards us and we're doing that six towards us and we're doing that six towards us and we're doing that six seven times a day then how are we in seven times a day then how are we in seven times a day then how are we in seeing how that neck the muscles around seeing how that neck the muscles around seeing how that neck the muscles around the neck will develop so are we allowing the neck will develop so are we allowing the neck will develop so are we allowing the animal to be able to be comfortable the animal to be able to be comfortable the animal to be able to be comfortable as they get older as well in the way as they get older as well in the way

38:21

as they get older as well in the way we're asking them to behave so it's all we're asking them to behave so it's all we're asking them to behave so it's all of those different underlying principles of those different underlying principles of those different underlying principles I like how you referred to training in I like how you referred to training in I like how you referred to training in the art of trainees is heavier recipe the art of trainees is heavier recipe the art of trainees is heavier recipe inversed being a good shift and just inversed being a good shift and just inversed being a good shift and just probably move on um that's probably one probably move on um that's probably one probably move on um that's probably one of the most said things and these of the most said things and these of the most said things and these podcast episodes I'm good at dragging podcast episodes I'm good at dragging podcast episodes I'm good at dragging out I squished this before we move on out I squished this before we move on out I squished this before we move on one more thing because I think this is one more thing because I think this is one more thing because I think this is important I think creativity is super important I think creativity is super important I think creativity is super important for everyone to work on and to important for everyone to work on and to important for everyone to work on and to develop and it helps us be better and develop and it helps us be better and develop and it helps us be better and good trainers so I just want to go back good trainers so I just want to go back good trainers so I just want to go back once again to when you started and see once again to when you started and see once again to when you started and see all of us potentially but maybe this is all of us potentially but maybe this is all of us potentially but maybe this is a bit of a hard question how your mind a bit of a hard question how your mind a bit of a hard question how your mind was working or even now how your mind was working or even now how your mind was working or even now how your mind works when you look at a situation and works when you look at a situation and works when you look at a situation and you need talked about figuring out what you need talked about figuring out what you need talked about figuring out what the function is for the animal the area the function is for the animal the area the function is for the animal the area and making sure that's accommodated for and making sure that's accommodated for and making sure that's accommodated for but how do you how do you kind of look

39:15

but how do you how do you kind of look but how do you how do you kind of look at a situation and come up with a new at a situation and come up with a new at a situation and come up with a new idea like how to how did you start idea like how to how did you start idea like how to how did you start moving towards a bucket game what's the moving towards a bucket game what's the moving towards a bucket game what's the creative process inside charades here I creative process inside charades here I creative process inside charades here I know as I said potentially this is a know as I said potentially this is a know as I said potentially this is a hard question but I think it's valuable hard question but I think it's valuable hard question but I think it's valuable for people to kind of learn about how for people to kind of learn about how for people to kind of learn about how other people be creative so they can other people be creative so they can other people be creative so they can hopefully fix their muscle themselves I hopefully fix their muscle themselves I hopefully fix their muscle themselves I think it's a really good question think it's a really good question think it's a really good question because often when people think of because often when people think of because often when people think of creativity I think they think of you creativity I think they think of you creativity I think they think of you know someone's creative or they're not know someone's creative or they're not know someone's creative or they're not or it kind of pops out of nowhere or it kind of pops out of nowhere or it kind of pops out of nowhere but I don't necessarily think that's but I don't necessarily think that's but I don't necessarily think that's true I think behavior analysis can true I think behavior analysis can true I think behavior analysis can provide some good answers and Skinner provide some good answers and Skinner provide some good answers and Skinner actually did a lecture and wrote an actually did a lecture and wrote an actually did a lecture and wrote an article on having a poem and it article on having a poem and it article on having a poem and it discusses about writing a poem and where discusses about writing a poem and where discusses about writing a poem and where that some of that creativity could come that some of that creativity could come that some of that creativity could come from but understanding it from a from but understanding it from a from but understanding it from a learning history point of view and from learning history point of view and from

39:59

learning history point of view and from my point my point my point for me thinking about my news when I've for me thinking about my news when I've for me thinking about my news when I've been put into environments where I've been put into environments where I've been put into environments where I've accessed or learned from people who have accessed or learned from people who have accessed or learned from people who have provided certain bits of information and provided certain bits of information and provided certain bits of information and then I've been able to use those then I've been able to use those then I've been able to use those different things I've learned and given different things I've learned and given different things I've learned and given a certain situation maybe I've learned a certain situation maybe I've learned a certain situation maybe I've learned something here and I've learned something here and I've learned something here and I've learned something there and I thought oh I could something there and I thought oh I could something there and I thought oh I could put both of those together and try and put both of those together and try and put both of those together and try and it's been reinforced it's been it's been reinforced it's been it's been reinforced it's been successful and also when I work with successful and also when I work with successful and also when I work with different people you talk about different people you talk about different people you talk about different ideas different ideas different ideas oh yeah that's great and it sort of oh yeah that's great and it sort of oh yeah that's great and it sort of starts becoming reinforcing when you've starts becoming reinforcing when you've starts becoming reinforcing when you've got an environment where people are got an environment where people are got an environment where people are reinforcing you or and they're going oh reinforcing you or and they're going oh reinforcing you or and they're going oh yeah that's excellent actually you think yeah that's excellent actually you think yeah that's excellent actually you think about they're giving you the opportunity about they're giving you the opportunity about they're giving you the opportunity to discuss things rather than just to discuss things rather than just to discuss things rather than just saying this is how it's done that's it saying this is how it's done that's it saying this is how it's done that's it that's what you have to learn here's a that's what you have to learn here's a that's what you have to learn here's a textbook go away no this is what he says

40:45

textbook go away no this is what he says textbook go away no this is what he says in the textbook people are open to in the textbook people are open to in the textbook people are open to having discussions and they're open to having discussions and they're open to having discussions and they're open to discussing oh yeah yeah explain that in discussing oh yeah yeah explain that in discussing oh yeah yeah explain that in a bit more detail what does that look a bit more detail what does that look a bit more detail what does that look like like like rather than almost punishing so when a rather than almost punishing so when a rather than almost punishing so when a young student says we'll ask a question young student says we'll ask a question young student says we'll ask a question from their mentor or they say something from their mentor or they say something from their mentor or they say something too often we'll be very quick to say yes too often we'll be very quick to say yes too often we'll be very quick to say yes but or we'll say no this is how it works but or we'll say no this is how it works but or we'll say no this is how it works rather than encouraging ok this sounds a rather than encouraging ok this sounds a rather than encouraging ok this sounds a little bit different to I'm used to little bit different to I'm used to little bit different to I'm used to hearing but let's reinforce this hearing but let's reinforce this hearing but let's reinforce this behavior from this learning in front of behavior from this learning in front of behavior from this learning in front of us and have them be creative them us and have them be creative them us and have them be creative them explain this idea so in the future explain this idea so in the future explain this idea so in the future they're more open to exploring things they're more open to exploring things they're more open to exploring things from a different angle as opposed to from a different angle as opposed to from a different angle as opposed to just the angle that we're teaching them just the angle that we're teaching them just the angle that we're teaching them from and it could have been they've read from and it could have been they've read from and it could have been they've read a different book but they've been a different book but they've been a different book but they've been exposed to something different to what exposed to something different to what exposed to something different to what we've been exposed to and they're able we've been exposed to and they're able

41:27

we've been exposed to and they're able to see it from different eyes and so I to see it from different eyes and so I to see it from different eyes and so I think the creativity is born time Phil think the creativity is born time Phil think the creativity is born time Phil I've been lucky enough to be around I've been lucky enough to be around I've been lucky enough to be around environments people who have lucky to environments people who have lucky to environments people who have lucky to call mentors that have been very open call mentors that have been very open call mentors that have been very open and encouraged me to constantly be and encouraged me to constantly be and encouraged me to constantly be asking questions and as part of science asking questions and as part of science asking questions and as part of science is to constantly be asking questions is to constantly be asking questions is to constantly be asking questions don't accept anything of the absolute don't accept anything of the absolute don't accept anything of the absolute truth because Sciences technology is truth because Sciences technology is truth because Sciences technology is developing all the time the information developing all the time the information developing all the time the information that we learn is developing so if we that we learn is developing so if we that we learn is developing so if we just always think yep I know it that's just always think yep I know it that's just always think yep I know it that's it then we're going to fall behind and it then we're going to fall behind and it then we're going to fall behind and we're never going to be up to date so we're never going to be up to date so we're never going to be up to date so constantly questioning what we know is constantly questioning what we know is constantly questioning what we know is the truth and asking those I think can the truth and asking those I think can the truth and asking those I think can be really useful now when I look at a be really useful now when I look at a be really useful now when I look at a situation we have good data from situation we have good data from situation we have good data from behavior science the research about how behavior science the research about how behavior science the research about how behaviors a result of its environment behaviors a result of its environment behaviors a result of its environment and the consequences and how quads and the consequences and how quads and the consequences and how quads quences influence behavior antecedent quences influence behavior antecedent

42:14

quences influence behavior antecedent arrangement influences behavior and so arrangement influences behavior and so arrangement influences behavior and so when I see a situation or if I go into a when I see a situation or if I go into a when I see a situation or if I go into a situation I always start with okay the situation I always start with okay the situation I always start with okay the science what does the science say what science what does the science say what science what does the science say what information do we have information do we have information do we have and from there I kind of explore further and from there I kind of explore further and from there I kind of explore further and often people will say we're looking and often people will say we're looking and often people will say we're looking for something more advanced or we've for something more advanced or we've for something more advanced or we've tried the basics and just doesn't seem tried the basics and just doesn't seem tried the basics and just doesn't seem to work to work to work I always come from the angle that the I always come from the angle that the I always come from the angle that the fundamentals have never failed me and fundamentals have never failed me and fundamentals have never failed me and the research the information if they do the research the information if they do the research the information if they do fail is often because we haven't applied fail is often because we haven't applied fail is often because we haven't applied it well enough or we're not doing a it well enough or we're not doing a it well enough or we're not doing a great job at the way we apply or the great job at the way we apply or the great job at the way we apply or the situations are applying it in so rather situations are applying it in so rather situations are applying it in so rather than thinking well this doesn't work I than thinking well this doesn't work I than thinking well this doesn't work I know positive reinforcement works and it know positive reinforcement works and it know positive reinforcement works and it has never failed me but often maybe the has never failed me but often maybe the has never failed me but often maybe the way I'm applying it that's not the best way I'm applying it that's not the best way I'm applying it that's not the best for that situation or correct in that for that situation or correct in that for that situation or correct in that situation so it just needs to be me situation so it just needs to be me situation so it just needs to be me learning how to do it better so that's

43:03

learning how to do it better so that's learning how to do it better so that's how I tend to look at situations so for how I tend to look at situations so for how I tend to look at situations so for me that science is really important and me that science is really important and me that science is really important and then from there I think that allows you then from there I think that allows you then from there I think that allows you to build and be more creative with basic to build and be more creative with basic to build and be more creative with basic principles just one more thing before we principles just one more thing before we principles just one more thing before we move on to just looking at the time we move on to just looking at the time we move on to just looking at the time we should move on and we could do a whole should move on and we could do a whole should move on and we could do a whole podcast now and thinking on the buck podcast now and thinking on the buck podcast now and thinking on the buck again but we're gonna move on in the again but we're gonna move on in the again but we're gonna move on in the conversations it's spin from the bucket conversations it's spin from the bucket conversations it's spin from the bucket to the next question to the next question to the next question it was really really wonderful to hear it was really really wonderful to hear it was really really wonderful to hear about it and thank you for sharing but about it and thank you for sharing but about it and thank you for sharing but it's I want to move on though to it's I want to move on though to it's I want to move on though to something that you and I were discussing something that you and I were discussing something that you and I were discussing when we put up virus quite cool a couple when we put up virus quite cool a couple when we put up virus quite cool a couple of weeks ago and in preparation for this of weeks ago and in preparation for this of weeks ago and in preparation for this podcast and this is about speed when podcast and this is about speed when podcast and this is about speed when we're training and the potential benefit we're training and the potential benefit we're training and the potential benefit of sometimes taking things a little bit of sometimes taking things a little bit of sometimes taking things a little bit more slowly when we're engaging with a more slowly when we're engaging with a more slowly when we're engaging with a learner can you talk to this idea please learner can you talk to this idea please

43:46

learner can you talk to this idea please shrink definitely I think for me a huge shrink definitely I think for me a huge shrink definitely I think for me a huge part of teaching and learning is slowing part of teaching and learning is slowing part of teaching and learning is slowing down and taking in the information in down and taking in the information in down and taking in the information in front of us I think we're often too front of us I think we're often too front of us I think we're often too quick to jump into situations and it's quick to jump into situations and it's quick to jump into situations and it's almost we're not living in the present almost we're not living in the present almost we're not living in the present moment but we're thinking about the moment but we're thinking about the moment but we're thinking about the future thinking about the end goal of future thinking about the end goal of future thinking about the end goal of the end result as opposed to what we put the end result as opposed to what we put the end result as opposed to what we put in front of us often will ignore or we in front of us often will ignore or we in front of us often will ignore or we don't see what's in front of us because don't see what's in front of us because don't see what's in front of us because they're so focused on that end they're so focused on that end they're so focused on that end destination when I teach the animal this destination when I teach the animal this destination when I teach the animal this will want to get to this point that oh will want to get to this point that oh will want to get to this point that oh we lose what's that right there in front we lose what's that right there in front we lose what's that right there in front of us by slowing down we see so much of us by slowing down we see so much of us by slowing down we see so much more we get to see what the learners are more we get to see what the learners are more we get to see what the learners are actually doing and how they they are actually doing and how they they are actually doing and how they they are or behaviors which you wouldn't see or behaviors which you wouldn't see or behaviors which you wouldn't see otherwise so if we have a dog in front otherwise so if we have a dog in front otherwise so if we have a dog in front of us or a bird often I hear people say of us or a bird often I hear people say of us or a bird often I hear people say that animal is really fast and so we that animal is really fast and so we that animal is really fast and so we have to train faster or work with wild

44:37

have to train faster or work with wild have to train faster or work with wild animals or they say if we slow down animals or they say if we slow down animals or they say if we slow down they'll buy us or with these types of they'll buy us or with these types of they'll buy us or with these types of animals you can't be slow you have to be animals you can't be slow you have to be animals you can't be slow you have to be really fast but the animals really fast really fast but the animals really fast really fast but the animals really fast well we're never really going to be able well we're never really going to be able well we're never really going to be able to be as fast as that animal they're to be as fast as that animal they're to be as fast as that animal they're gonna be able to move faster than our so gonna be able to move faster than our so gonna be able to move faster than our so trying to speed up it's probably setting trying to speed up it's probably setting trying to speed up it's probably setting up the environment for us to fail up the environment for us to fail up the environment for us to fail whereas often those animals can learn to whereas often those animals can learn to whereas often those animals can learn to slow down and they often do slow down if slow down and they often do slow down if slow down and they often do slow down if we watch save the corvids a lot of times we watch save the corvids a lot of times we watch save the corvids a lot of times out here call be trainers say by the out here call be trainers say by the out here call be trainers say by the Corvina versus still with a hyperactive Corvina versus still with a hyperactive Corvina versus still with a hyperactive or they move really fast and so when or they move really fast and so when or they move really fast and so when they approach the enclosure the animals they approach the enclosure the animals they approach the enclosure the animals jumping around moving place to place and jumping around moving place to place and jumping around moving place to place and if I say well let's reinforce the animal if I say well let's reinforce the animal if I say well let's reinforce the animal for standing or station in calmly when a for standing or station in calmly when a for standing or station in calmly when a nerve is a quality they don't do that if nerve is a quality they don't do that if nerve is a quality they don't do that if we take a step back and we just watch we take a step back and we just watch we take a step back and we just watch them from outside their enclosure do we them from outside their enclosure do we

45:19

them from outside their enclosure do we ever see they were even on the crow just ever see they were even on the crow just ever see they were even on the crow just standing and stopping if we watch a wild standing and stopping if we watch a wild standing and stopping if we watch a wild Raven or crow do you ever see them just Raven or crow do you ever see them just Raven or crow do you ever see them just standing still for a moment and the standing still for a moment and the standing still for a moment and the answers that is yes I can look out a answers that is yes I can look out a answers that is yes I can look out a window and see a Corbett moving slow I window and see a Corbett moving slow I window and see a Corbett moving slow I can see them standing still so why is it can see them standing still so why is it can see them standing still so why is it that when we're there they move really that when we're there they move really that when we're there they move really fast because we're influencing their fast because we're influencing their fast because we're influencing their behavior so it must be something that behavior so it must be something that behavior so it must be something that we're doing through the consequences and we're doing through the consequences and we're doing through the consequences and the way we arrange the environment that the way we arrange the environment that the way we arrange the environment that means the animal is what we label is means the animal is what we label is means the animal is what we label is more hyperactive so we can change that more hyperactive so we can change that more hyperactive so we can change that environment to teach the animal to slow environment to teach the animal to slow environment to teach the animal to slow down and actually pays off to slow down down and actually pays off to slow down down and actually pays off to slow down but also for me is when we're working but also for me is when we're working but also for me is when we're working animals and we're working them really animals and we're working them really animals and we're working them really fast so they constantly just get them to fast so they constantly just get them to fast so they constantly just get them to focus on touching a target stick click focus on touching a target stick click focus on touching a target stick click tree do this behavior click treat do tree do this behavior click treat do tree do this behavior click treat do this behavior quick tree sometimes we this behavior quick tree sometimes we

46:04

this behavior quick tree sometimes we almost end up with animals who learn almost end up with animals who learn almost end up with animals who learn around humans it's the safest thing is around humans it's the safest thing is around humans it's the safest thing is to look for the next cue and follow that to look for the next cue and follow that to look for the next cue and follow that cue and while the animals doing that we cue and while the animals doing that we cue and while the animals doing that we see what we label as confident body see what we label as confident body see what we label as confident body language in the day to day situation so language in the day to day situation so language in the day to day situation so let me blow practical example here I let me blow practical example here I let me blow practical example here I remember working with someone who's got remember working with someone who's got remember working with someone who's got some foxes and wolves and when those some foxes and wolves and when those some foxes and wolves and when those animals are hitting targets or they're animals are hitting targets or they're animals are hitting targets or they're going to stations or they're getting going to stations or they're getting going to stations or they're getting onto a station and engaging in a onto a station and engaging in a onto a station and engaging in a behavior their body language is a lot behavior their body language is a lot behavior their body language is a lot more confident and looks very relaxed more confident and looks very relaxed more confident and looks very relaxed and happy but when they're moving from and happy but when they're moving from and happy but when they're moving from point A to point B to get to those point A to point B to get to those point A to point B to get to those stations stations stations you often see you often see you often see relax body language and so what we want relax body language and so what we want relax body language and so what we want to teach animals to do is slow down and to teach animals to do is slow down and to teach animals to do is slow down and be able to learn about the environment be able to learn about the environment be able to learn about the environment around them we want them to be able to around them we want them to be able to around them we want them to be able to go okay this is the kind of floor that's go okay this is the kind of floor that's go okay this is the kind of floor that's the noise this is what's happening well the noise this is what's happening well

46:51

the noise this is what's happening well there's a black bag over there this is there's a black bag over there this is there's a black bag over there this is how it moved and they will actually how it moved and they will actually how it moved and they will actually learn about those things and then when learn about those things and then when learn about those things and then when they're focused on us and they're doing they're focused on us and they're doing they're focused on us and they're doing things it's not that we're distracting things it's not that we're distracting things it's not that we're distracting them from the environment but they're them from the environment but they're them from the environment but they're now able and ready to approach what's in now able and ready to approach what's in now able and ready to approach what's in front of them front of them front of them whereas too often I think we shove whereas too often I think we shove whereas too often I think we shove treats in front of the animal and keep treats in front of the animal and keep treats in front of the animal and keep them busy but we distract them from them busy but we distract them from them busy but we distract them from learning about the environment they're learning about the environment they're learning about the environment they're in and if the animal can learn about the in and if the animal can learn about the in and if the animal can learn about the environment they're in it feel relaxed environment they're in it feel relaxed environment they're in it feel relaxed then I think they're less likely to show then I think they're less likely to show then I think they're less likely to show aggressive behaviors or suddenly just aggressive behaviors or suddenly just aggressive behaviors or suddenly just startle or run off and they're going to startle or run off and they're going to startle or run off and they're going to relax them a lot more quickly so when relax them a lot more quickly so when relax them a lot more quickly so when we're socializing animals early on we're socializing animals early on we're socializing animals early on rather than be distracting them with rather than be distracting them with rather than be distracting them with food allowing them to behave putting food allowing them to behave putting food allowing them to behave putting them into situations aren't going to them into situations aren't going to them into situations aren't going to freak them out but exposing them to freak them out but exposing them to freak them out but exposing them to small intensities of certain stimuli and

47:33

small intensities of certain stimuli and small intensities of certain stimuli and then reinforcing them for relaxing or then reinforcing them for relaxing or then reinforcing them for relaxing or being calm and allowing them to being calm and allowing them to being calm and allowing them to investigate things rather than just investigate things rather than just investigate things rather than just having food there the whole time so just having food there the whole time so just having food there the whole time so just focus on the food but they can focus on the food but they can focus on the food but they can manipulate objects and learn about them manipulate objects and learn about them manipulate objects and learn about them we're going to have much more confidence we're going to have much more confidence we're going to have much more confidence when I learn that who can operate on the when I learn that who can operate on the when I learn that who can operate on the environment rather than just be focused environment rather than just be focused environment rather than just be focused on that food all the time so I think on that food all the time so I think on that food all the time so I think that's one aspect of slowing down that's that's one aspect of slowing down that's that's one aspect of slowing down that's really really important and then from a really really important and then from a really really important and then from a trainer point of view I think what we trainer point of view I think what we trainer point of view I think what we end up doing is we really learn more end up doing is we really learn more end up doing is we really learn more about the individual in front of us and about the individual in front of us and about the individual in front of us and it's less about that end goal or getting it's less about that end goal or getting it's less about that end goal or getting to that destination but the journey to that destination but the journey to that destination but the journey becomes more important and we get better becomes more important and we get better becomes more important and we get better relationships we really enjoy spending relationships we really enjoy spending relationships we really enjoy spending time with our animals and whether they time with our animals and whether they time with our animals and whether they get the end goal is actually about get the end goal is actually about get the end goal is actually about important because what we think is we've important because what we think is we've

48:14

important because what we think is we've had a great time the animals have a had a great time the animals have a had a great time the animals have a great time in those training sessions great time in those training sessions great time in those training sessions and then we have another opportunity to and then we have another opportunity to and then we have another opportunity to try again so if I'm work in an animal if try again so if I'm work in an animal if try again so if I'm work in an animal if something goes wrong I rather than just something goes wrong I rather than just something goes wrong I rather than just leave the session where the animals had leave the session where the animals had leave the session where the animals had a great time because next time I open up a great time because next time I open up a great time because next time I open up opportunities to have that conversation opportunities to have that conversation opportunities to have that conversation the animals going to come and want to the animals going to come and want to the animals going to come and want to have a conversation it gives me another have a conversation it gives me another have a conversation it gives me another opportunity to try again whereas it is opportunity to try again whereas it is opportunity to try again whereas it is going wrong but I try getting to my end going wrong but I try getting to my end going wrong but I try getting to my end goal regardless the next time I open the goal regardless the next time I open the goal regardless the next time I open the conversation and we'll probably not want conversation and we'll probably not want conversation and we'll probably not want to come back and so I always want to try to come back and so I always want to try to come back and so I always want to try and think through my training sessions I and think through my training sessions I and think through my training sessions I just want another opportunity with the just want another opportunity with the just want another opportunity with the animal some I get the opportunity to animal some I get the opportunity to animal some I get the opportunity to have a conversation they want to come have a conversation they want to come have a conversation they want to come and interact with me or talk to me so I and interact with me or talk to me so I and interact with me or talk to me so I find this really interesting find this really interesting find this really interesting about thinking about what's happening in about thinking about what's happening in

48:55

about thinking about what's happening in the prison moment as opposed to our in the prison moment as opposed to our in the prison moment as opposed to our in goes and I guess when we're so close to goes and I guess when we're so close to goes and I guess when we're so close to our own training sometimes it's it's our own training sometimes it's it's our own training sometimes it's it's hard to see what's going on right in hard to see what's going on right in hard to see what's going on right in front of us because we just saw a test front of us because we just saw a test front of us because we just saw a test to it and they in goal is something we to it and they in goal is something we to it and they in goal is something we think about a lot would you say that's think about a lot would you say that's think about a lot would you say that's something you're found with trainers something you're found with trainers something you're found with trainers yeah definitely and includes myself and yeah definitely and includes myself and yeah definitely and includes myself and so we're always living a lot in the past so we're always living a lot in the past so we're always living a lot in the past in the future but Elian now there's a in the future but Elian now there's a in the future but Elian now there's a really good book nothing to do animal really good book nothing to do animal really good book nothing to do animal training called the power of now and training called the power of now and training called the power of now and it's about mindfulness and that really it's about mindfulness and that really it's about mindfulness and that really opened my eyes to thinking if I pick up opened my eyes to thinking if I pick up opened my eyes to thinking if I pick up the clicker or I pick up a training tool the clicker or I pick up a training tool the clicker or I pick up a training tool and I'm working with the learner it's in and I'm working with the learner it's in and I'm working with the learner it's in your head what your mind is talking to your head what your mind is talking to your head what your mind is talking to you is making thinking about what this you is making thinking about what this you is making thinking about what this needs to happen and this happened and I needs to happen and this happened and I needs to happen and this happened and I need to do this and even if it's not need to do this and even if it's not need to do this and even if it's not about the training session you're often about the training session you're often

49:37

about the training session you're often thinking about why I need to go pick up thinking about why I need to go pick up thinking about why I need to go pick up the kids I need to go to do this I need the kids I need to go to do this I need the kids I need to go to do this I need to stop I need to do that I need to to stop I need to do that I need to to stop I need to do that I need to order that and so rarely in that moment order that and so rarely in that moment order that and so rarely in that moment of the now and when we're working with of the now and when we're working with of the now and when we're working with animals I think it's so important to animals I think it's so important to animals I think it's so important to really be in the now and rather than really be in the now and rather than really be in the now and rather than thinking well I need to get here really thinking well I need to get here really thinking well I need to get here really be focusing on what's happening in front be focusing on what's happening in front be focusing on what's happening in front of us and making the most of that of us and making the most of that of us and making the most of that because once that moment is gone you're because once that moment is gone you're because once that moment is gone you're never gonna get that now back so what never gonna get that now back so what never gonna get that now back so what you're doing with a learnable you're you're doing with a learnable you're you're doing with a learnable you're focusing on is getting to that end goal focusing on is getting to that end goal focusing on is getting to that end goal you're spending that five or ten minute you're spending that five or ten minute you're spending that five or ten minute training session and you're not really training session and you're not really training session and you're not really happy until you've got an end goal happy until you've got an end goal happy until you've got an end goal whereas if every moment that you have whereas if every moment that you have whereas if every moment that you have with that learner the animal is about with that learner the animal is about with that learner the animal is about the now and you celebrate that now every the now and you celebrate that now every the now and you celebrate that now every single moment every single approximation single moment every single approximation single moment every single approximation everything you're doing that that everything you're doing that that everything you're doing that that learner is some of you enjoying you

50:16

learner is some of you enjoying you learner is some of you enjoying you celebrate it's not just about when you celebrate it's not just about when you celebrate it's not just about when you get to that end behavior you've actually get to that end behavior you've actually get to that end behavior you've actually spent time with the animals that we love spent time with the animals that we love spent time with the animals that we love and we care for and we've enjoyed it and we care for and we've enjoyed it and we care for and we've enjoyed it rather than thinking I've had victory rather than thinking I've had victory rather than thinking I've had victory when I've got to the end when the when I've got to the end when the when I've got to the end when the animals learn that mouth open behavior animals learn that mouth open behavior animals learn that mouth open behavior when they're got the blood for we've had when they're got the blood for we've had when they're got the blood for we've had great success actually for me that every great success actually for me that every great success actually for me that every session even before we get to that blood session even before we get to that blood session even before we get to that blood draw those moments those now's who've draw those moments those now's who've draw those moments those now's who've made the most of the animals had a great made the most of the animals had a great made the most of the animals had a great time they've loved those sessions I've time they've loved those sessions I've time they've loved those sessions I've had a great time I've loved those had a great time I've loved those had a great time I've loved those sessions it hasn't been about well now sessions it hasn't been about well now sessions it hasn't been about well now we've got blood drawn we've got blood drawn we've got blood drawn so we've succeeded every moment is so we've succeeded every moment is so we've succeeded every moment is almost success the way we create it and almost success the way we create it and almost success the way we create it and some people potentially find themselves some people potentially find themselves some people potentially find themselves in situations we might both into other in situations we might both into other in situations we might both into other moments with levelers a gray areas call moments with levelers a gray areas call moments with levelers a gray areas call it a gray area and they feel free to it a gray area and they feel free to it a gray area and they feel free to rephrase it some people might find

51:03

rephrase it some people might find rephrase it some people might find themselves in a situation where themselves in a situation where themselves in a situation where that's really challenging for them they that's really challenging for them they that's really challenging for them they might have managers above them who are might have managers above them who are might have managers above them who are pressuring them to get animals ready for pressuring them to get animals ready for pressuring them to get animals ready for whatever purpose they'd say animal for whatever purpose they'd say animal for whatever purpose they'd say animal for education program in zoo happen we kind education program in zoo happen we kind education program in zoo happen we kind of incorporate this information and and of incorporate this information and and of incorporate this information and and manage those situations I know it's a manage those situations I know it's a manage those situations I know it's a pretty challenging question what's your pretty challenging question what's your pretty challenging question what's your input on this so I think we have to input on this so I think we have to input on this so I think we have to arrange our environments of a success arrange our environments of a success arrange our environments of a success and we need to be thinking about ok so I and we need to be thinking about ok so I and we need to be thinking about ok so I go to work and I do it because I love go to work and I do it because I love go to work and I do it because I love caring for these animals and I enjoy caring for these animals and I enjoy caring for these animals and I enjoy spending time with them and then you spending time with them and then you spending time with them and then you have the managers well which is they have the managers well which is they have the managers well which is they need to have certain things done or need to have certain things done or need to have certain things done or there's certain things happening so there's certain things happening so there's certain things happening so these are the goals that you need to these are the goals that you need to these are the goals that you need to meet and it was something that trainer meet and it was something that trainer meet and it was something that trainer said to me her name is Jessica and said to me her name is Jessica and said to me her name is Jessica and hopefully she won't mind mentioning this hopefully she won't mind mentioning this hopefully she won't mind mentioning this she works at the Shedd Aquarium in

51:51

she works at the Shedd Aquarium in she works at the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago she's a senior trainer there and Chicago she's a senior trainer there and Chicago she's a senior trainer there and it used to be where Ken Ramirez used to it used to be where Ken Ramirez used to it used to be where Ken Ramirez used to be based and why really love so we're be based and why really love so we're be based and why really love so we're having dinner once at Jessica's house having dinner once at Jessica's house having dinner once at Jessica's house and she said to me the way I see my job and she said to me the way I see my job and she said to me the way I see my job is my job is to go into work and to make is my job is to go into work and to make is my job is to go into work and to make my animals happy to give them what they my animals happy to give them what they my animals happy to give them what they need to care for them and I thought that need to care for them and I thought that need to care for them and I thought that was such a great way he's a trainer he's was such a great way he's a trainer he's was such a great way he's a trainer he's been working with these animals for over been working with these animals for over been working with these animals for over 20 years 20 years 20 years and she's worked her way up to senior and she's worked her way up to senior and she's worked her way up to senior trainer and the stuff that she enjoys is trainer and the stuff that she enjoys is trainer and the stuff that she enjoys is working animals day to day and caring working animals day to day and caring working animals day to day and caring for them as it goes it's my job and it's for them as it goes it's my job and it's for them as it goes it's my job and it's what she was taught by her mentors and what she was taught by her mentors and what she was taught by her mentors and the people that she learned from and ken the people that she learned from and ken the people that she learned from and ken Ramirez is a phenomenal trainer Ramirez is a phenomenal trainer Ramirez is a phenomenal trainer something this is something I've picked something this is something I've picked something this is something I've picked up from his philosophy is if you're up from his philosophy is if you're up from his philosophy is if you're employed as an animal trainer or as an employed as an animal trainer or as an employed as an animal trainer or as an animal caregiver you're the voice for animal caregiver you're the voice for animal caregiver you're the voice for the animal so when your managers come to

52:38

the animal so when your managers come to the animal so when your managers come to them say well the eight shows a day or them say well the eight shows a day or them say well the eight shows a day or today we need to do 16 interactions or today we need to do 16 interactions or today we need to do 16 interactions or we need this behavior by this state we need this behavior by this state we need this behavior by this state you're the animals voice we need to be you're the animals voice we need to be you're the animals voice we need to be there rather than bowing down and saying there rather than bowing down and saying there rather than bowing down and saying well okay we're going to do anything and well okay we're going to do anything and well okay we're going to do anything and compromise welfare to get there we have compromise welfare to get there we have compromise welfare to get there we have to be the ones that stand up for the to be the ones that stand up for the to be the ones that stand up for the animals so almost if our goal and our animals so almost if our goal and our animals so almost if our goal and our job is animal care then that's what we job is animal care then that's what we job is animal care then that's what we should be really focused on and it's a should be really focused on and it's a should be really focused on and it's a manager's job to do it in a way that manager's job to do it in a way that manager's job to do it in a way that doesn't compromise the animals welfare doesn't compromise the animals welfare doesn't compromise the animals welfare and often in lots of phases that's and often in lots of phases that's and often in lots of phases that's really hard to do and so I think when I really hard to do and so I think when I really hard to do and so I think when I hear trainers say to me well I work in hear trainers say to me well I work in hear trainers say to me well I work in this organization right here I'm here this organization right here I'm here this organization right here I'm here and I really can't make these changes or and I really can't make these changes or and I really can't make these changes or this is what I have to do then you have this is what I have to do then you have this is what I have to do then you have to ask yourself okay so that's your job to ask yourself okay so that's your job to ask yourself okay so that's your job that's what you that's what you that's what you go in and do it's not something you can go in and do it's not something you can go in and do it's not something you can change now but is it something that you

53:22

change now but is it something that you change now but is it something that you can work your changing in the future can work your changing in the future can work your changing in the future might be six months time or a year's might be six months time or a year's might be six months time or a year's time or is it something that you feel time or is it something that you feel time or is it something that you feel it's not the right situation for you so it's not the right situation for you so it's not the right situation for you so from my point of view I know that I love from my point of view I know that I love from my point of view I know that I love what I do I love consulting because I what I do I love consulting because I what I do I love consulting because I can make more rules up and I can decide can make more rules up and I can decide can make more rules up and I can decide how I'm going to do things I can decide how I'm going to do things I can decide how I'm going to do things I can decide which organisation upon the work Quinn which organisation upon the work Quinn which organisation upon the work Quinn which organizations I'm not gonna work which organizations I'm not gonna work which organizations I'm not gonna work with but I don't have to spend time ever with but I don't have to spend time ever with but I don't have to spend time ever in my life saying well I had to do this in my life saying well I had to do this in my life saying well I had to do this I had to go into work if I hear myself I had to go into work if I hear myself I had to go into work if I hear myself saying that well if I've got friends it saying that well if I've got friends it saying that well if I've got friends it would be saying I had to do this I hope would be saying I had to do this I hope would be saying I had to do this I hope they'll say to me or do something they'll say to me or do something they'll say to me or do something different then because I don't want to different then because I don't want to different then because I don't want to spend precious moments of my life having spend precious moments of my life having spend precious moments of my life having to be complaining when I could make to be complaining when I could make to be complaining when I could make changes they found consult I can go and changes they found consult I can go and changes they found consult I can go and lose place a place to say I really love lose place a place to say I really love lose place a place to say I really love working with this organisation because working with this organisation because

54:06

working with this organisation because yes they may do things differently to yes they may do things differently to yes they may do things differently to the way I would do things but they're the way I would do things but they're the way I would do things but they're progressive they're changing and over progressive they're changing and over progressive they're changing and over time things I think going in a different time things I think going in a different time things I think going in a different direction so I love spending time direction so I love spending time direction so I love spending time working there but if I go somewhere and working there but if I go somewhere and working there but if I go somewhere and they say yeah that's all good but they say yeah that's all good but they say yeah that's all good but actually we can't do this we can't do actually we can't do this we can't do actually we can't do this we can't do that then I'm all for spending time and that then I'm all for spending time and that then I'm all for spending time and problem solving and saying well let's problem solving and saying well let's problem solving and saying well let's look at other options to see what's the look at other options to see what's the look at other options to see what's the best we can do in this situation but if best we can do in this situation but if best we can do in this situation but if I go to a place where I feel actually I I go to a place where I feel actually I I go to a place where I feel actually I can't make these changes and I feel I can't make these changes and I feel I can't make these changes and I feel I don't have the feels to be able to work don't have the feels to be able to work don't have the feels to be able to work long-term in that environment to be able long-term in that environment to be able long-term in that environment to be able to make those changes then I can go to make those changes then I can go to make those changes then I can go elsewhere and say I can focus on elsewhere and say I can focus on elsewhere and say I can focus on something else I know that's not something else I know that's not something else I know that's not realistic for every single person but realistic for every single person but realistic for every single person but that's the way I tend to look at it from that's the way I tend to look at it from that's the way I tend to look at it from my life is if I'm going to be in a my life is if I'm going to be in a my life is if I'm going to be in a situation I'm going to be complaining situation I'm going to be complaining

54:48

situation I'm going to be complaining every single day about my managers of every single day about my managers of every single day about my managers of what I'm doing although I have to do what I'm doing although I have to do what I'm doing although I have to do then is it worthwhile for me to keep then is it worthwhile for me to keep then is it worthwhile for me to keep doing that or can I go and make better doing that or can I go and make better doing that or can I go and make better change somewhere else and so you know change somewhere else and so you know change somewhere else and so you know generally familiar tend to think of it generally familiar tend to think of it generally familiar tend to think of it as we're there to advocate for the as we're there to advocate for the as we're there to advocate for the animals if we're working in those roles animals if we're working in those roles animals if we're working in those roles and so we should never ever lose that or and so we should never ever lose that or and so we should never ever lose that or you should never become up to 20 years you should never become up to 20 years you should never become up to 20 years of doing it to still be saying my job is of doing it to still be saying my job is of doing it to still be saying my job is to go to work and do whatever it is that to go to work and do whatever it is that to go to work and do whatever it is that the animals feel happy about I think the animals feel happy about I think the animals feel happy about I think that's just such a great philosophy and that's just such a great philosophy and that's just such a great philosophy and that really something it sticks with me that really something it sticks with me that really something it sticks with me is when I'm doing things as a mat for is when I'm doing things as a mat for is when I'm doing things as a mat for benefit so many years oh it's another benefit so many years oh it's another benefit so many years oh it's another dog or another power or another consult dog or another power or another consult dog or another power or another consult the goal is regardless of all the human the goal is regardless of all the human the goal is regardless of all the human deadlines that we put on when I go to a deadlines that we put on when I go to a deadlines that we put on when I go to a situation if they say well we're going situation if they say well we're going situation if they say well we're going to need to train this by this thing when to need to train this by this thing when

55:32

to need to train this by this thing when to do this I always come back to for me to do this I always come back to for me to do this I always come back to for me is how does the animal do in this is how does the animal do in this is how does the animal do in this situation and Suzanne clothier another situation and Suzanne clothier another situation and Suzanne clothier another train I heard a speak once and she said train I heard a speak once and she said train I heard a speak once and she said on stage do you ever ask the question on stage do you ever ask the question on stage do you ever ask the question how is this for you so when we're how is this for you so when we're how is this for you so when we're training or we're doing something with a training or we're doing something with a training or we're doing something with a dog or learner we should always be dog or learner we should always be dog or learner we should always be asking the question how is this for you asking the question how is this for you asking the question how is this for you and if the animal could talk or reply and if the animal could talk or reply and if the animal could talk or reply back what would they say and that's back what would they say and that's back what would they say and that's something I'm always thinking about you something I'm always thinking about you something I'm always thinking about you know and I'm doing something how is this know and I'm doing something how is this know and I'm doing something how is this for you and in every moment as much as I for you and in every moment as much as I for you and in every moment as much as I can and if I start thinking well the can and if I start thinking well the can and if I start thinking well the answer wouldn't be something I want to answer wouldn't be something I want to answer wouldn't be something I want to hear then maybe I need to stop and maybe hear then maybe I need to stop and maybe hear then maybe I need to stop and maybe it's my responsibility to have a it's my responsibility to have a it's my responsibility to have a difficult conversation with a manager or difficult conversation with a manager or difficult conversation with a manager or someone who's paying me to be there and someone who's paying me to be there and someone who's paying me to be there and say actually it's not realistic I'm say actually it's not realistic I'm say actually it's not realistic I'm sorry sorry sorry I can't get the behaviors you want in I can't get the behaviors you want in I can't get the behaviors you want in the next six weeks I can get them in the

56:16

the next six weeks I can get them in the the next six weeks I can get them in the next three months and if you would like next three months and if you would like next three months and if you would like then I'm happy to do that but if you then I'm happy to do that but if you then I'm happy to do that but if you want them in the next six weeks I'm not want them in the next six weeks I'm not want them in the next six weeks I'm not the right person for you and maybe I the right person for you and maybe I the right person for you and maybe I wasn't as good doing that and I'm still wasn't as good doing that and I'm still wasn't as good doing that and I'm still practicing that so if I go into a practicing that so if I go into a practicing that so if I go into a situation I might find myself in not to situation I might find myself in not to situation I might find myself in not to have not followed my own kind of ideals have not followed my own kind of ideals have not followed my own kind of ideals I try and practice that as much as I can I try and practice that as much as I can I try and practice that as much as I can get better I so I think the more we do get better I so I think the more we do get better I so I think the more we do it and the more we practice we can get it and the more we practice we can get it and the more we practice we can get better and better at those things and better and better at those things and better and better at those things and for some people going to work they kind for some people going to work they kind for some people going to work they kind of turn around and say to her manager of turn around and say to her manager of turn around and say to her manager well I won't be able to do this in the well I won't be able to do this in the well I won't be able to do this in the next six weeks and I can't help you in next six weeks and I can't help you in next six weeks and I can't help you in this situation because they rely on that this situation because they rely on that this situation because they rely on that income to order to do that so I'm lucky income to order to do that so I'm lucky income to order to do that so I'm lucky I've managed to get to a situation where I've managed to get to a situation where I've managed to get to a situation where if I feel I need to say sorry I can't do if I feel I need to say sorry I can't do if I feel I need to say sorry I can't do this I'm confident I can try and pay my this I'm confident I can try and pay my this I'm confident I can try and pay my mortgage feed the animals and all the mortgage feed the animals and all the

56:59

mortgage feed the animals and all the rest in a different route for some rest in a different route for some rest in a different route for some people that's not realistic so I think people that's not realistic so I think people that's not realistic so I think everyone's gonna have their own goals everyone's gonna have their own goals everyone's gonna have their own goals and what they can and can't do I don't and what they can and can't do I don't and what they can and can't do I don't know if that really answers your know if that really answers your know if that really answers your question question question it was our question shred you know I it was our question shred you know I it was our question shred you know I don't think there is a well at least I don't think there is a well at least I don't think there is a well at least I haven't come across an answer to it that haven't come across an answer to it that haven't come across an answer to it that works for everyone yet there's so many works for everyone yet there's so many works for everyone yet there's so many variables in each situation so I think I variables in each situation so I think I variables in each situation so I think I think you answered it really well in it think you answered it really well in it think you answered it really well in it makes me think about something that's makes me think about something that's makes me think about something that's available to talk about and reminds me available to talk about and reminds me available to talk about and reminds me of recently someone we saw you presume of recently someone we saw you presume of recently someone we saw you presume at clicker Expo in the UK and they at clicker Expo in the UK and they at clicker Expo in the UK and they posted a video on our private ata animal posted a video on our private ata animal posted a video on our private ata animal training can be Facebook page and they training can be Facebook page and they training can be Facebook page and they said you were talking about the said you were talking about the said you were talking about the importance of finding your community and importance of finding your community and importance of finding your community and they said it reminded them of 80 and they said it reminded them of 80 and they said it reminded them of 80 and it's where they posted it in there but it's where they posted it in there but it's where they posted it in there but potentially that's addition to the the potentially that's addition to the the potentially that's addition to the the answer you gave which I thought was

57:41

answer you gave which I thought was answer you gave which I thought was fantastic is they're having a supportive fantastic is they're having a supportive fantastic is they're having a supportive network of people too network of people too network of people too help you remember there you're the voice help you remember there you're the voice help you remember there you're the voice for your animals in those situations can for your animals in those situations can for your animals in those situations can be helpful as what do you think be helpful as what do you think be helpful as what do you think definitely I think that's so big the definitely I think that's so big the definitely I think that's so big the more of what we have and the more on a more of what we have and the more on a more of what we have and the more on a community that we build and we support community that we build and we support community that we build and we support each other it's only going to benefit each other it's only going to benefit each other it's only going to benefit the animals that we care for so the more the animals that we care for so the more the animals that we care for so the more we close off and we're more individual we close off and we're more individual we close off and we're more individual we're going to have less of an influence we're going to have less of an influence we're going to have less of an influence so I think the more community people can so I think the more community people can so I think the more community people can be a part of them build I think it's be a part of them build I think it's be a part of them build I think it's gonna get to that end goal that we're gonna get to that end goal that we're gonna get to that end goal that we're working towards which is improving the working towards which is improving the working towards which is improving the lives of the animals that we care for so lives of the animals that we care for so lives of the animals that we care for so definitely and I think one other thing definitely and I think one other thing definitely and I think one other thing that I'd add to this is not to forget that I'd add to this is not to forget that I'd add to this is not to forget that when we're talking about the that when we're talking about the that when we're talking about the science of behavior change we're not science of behavior change we're not science of behavior change we're not just talking about the four-legged order just talking about the four-legged order just talking about the four-legged order there there are animals that we work

58:26

there there are animals that we work there there are animals that we work with those principles apply just as much with those principles apply just as much with those principles apply just as much to the human next to us as they do with to the human next to us as they do with to the human next to us as they do with the animals because often we think when the animals because often we think when the animals because often we think when we're talking about teaching or training we're talking about teaching or training we're talking about teaching or training animals we're thinking about using animals we're thinking about using animals we're thinking about using positive reinforcement giving them positive reinforcement giving them positive reinforcement giving them choice control arranging the environment choice control arranging the environment choice control arranging the environment to set them up for success when we think to set them up for success when we think to set them up for success when we think about talking to our manager we think of about talking to our manager we think of about talking to our manager we think of a completely different philosophy or a completely different philosophy or a completely different philosophy or we're talking about teaching the we're talking about teaching the we're talking about teaching the caregiver we start thinking about in caregiver we start thinking about in caregiver we start thinking about in very different ways more constructs we very different ways more constructs we very different ways more constructs we think about what we have to do this we think about what we have to do this we think about what we have to do this we have to change this we have to try and have to change this we have to try and have to change this we have to try and change them and the humans mind but we change them and the humans mind but we change them and the humans mind but we don't go into a training session don't go into a training session don't go into a training session thinking I need to change my dog's mind thinking I need to change my dog's mind thinking I need to change my dog's mind I need to tell you my Dolphins mind we I need to tell you my Dolphins mind we I need to tell you my Dolphins mind we talk about changing behavior and so I'm talk about changing behavior and so I'm talk about changing behavior and so I'm a big fan of leaving the mind alone and a big fan of leaving the mind alone and a big fan of leaving the mind alone and letting that be private to the letting that be private to the letting that be private to the individual and we're not qualified

59:09

individual and we're not qualified individual and we're not qualified psychologists where we're focused on the psychologists where we're focused on the psychologists where we're focused on the application or technicians of behavioral application or technicians of behavioral application or technicians of behavioral principles so let's use those with the principles so let's use those with the principles so let's use those with the people that we work with so if it's the people that we work with so if it's the people that we work with so if it's the manager take a step back and think how manager take a step back and think how manager take a step back and think how can I arrange the environment for can I arrange the environment for can I arrange the environment for reinforcement and both consequences reinforcement and both consequences reinforcement and both consequences antecedents to change the behavior that antecedents to change the behavior that antecedents to change the behavior that I'm looking for which could be giving I'm looking for which could be giving I'm looking for which could be giving you a few more week to do something and you a few more week to do something and you a few more week to do something and so taking a step back and I think in how so taking a step back and I think in how so taking a step back and I think in how can I apply the same principles or can I apply the same principles or can I apply the same principles or positive reinforcement in arm and choice positive reinforcement in arm and choice positive reinforcement in arm and choice arranged in the environment saying arranged in the environment saying arranged in the environment saying things up for success with the humans things up for success with the humans things up for success with the humans makes a big difference to real makes a big difference to real makes a big difference to real information in a room that I denote and information in a room that I denote and information in a room that I denote and I could keep pummeling your questions I could keep pummeling your questions I could keep pummeling your questions but we're going to move on to the next but we're going to move on to the next but we're going to move on to the next thing we wanted to talk about in and thing we wanted to talk about in and thing we wanted to talk about in and this is really important and you have this is really important and you have this is really important and you have mentioned it so many times already in mentioned it so many times already in mentioned it so many times already in this podcast so this will just be

59:55

this podcast so this will just be this podcast so this will just be building on I think everything that building on I think everything that building on I think everything that you've already talked about because you've already talked about because you've already talked about because you and I discuss the huge value of us you and I discuss the huge value of us you and I discuss the huge value of us once again building upon everything once again building upon everything once again building upon everything you've already said talking about the you've already said talking about the you've already said talking about the topic of choice and control can you topic of choice and control can you topic of choice and control can you build on this topic for us sure egg what build on this topic for us sure egg what build on this topic for us sure egg what is what does choice in control why it's is what does choice in control why it's is what does choice in control why it's important where are we currently with important where are we currently with important where are we currently with these concepts and ideas and where are these concepts and ideas and where are these concepts and ideas and where are we going yes for more Susan Friedman we going yes for more Susan Friedman we going yes for more Susan Friedman talking about this in their presentation talking about this in their presentation talking about this in their presentation when we think about behavior that's when we think about behavior that's when we think about behavior that's influenced consequences but when we influenced consequences but when we influenced consequences but when we behave we're changing the environment in behave we're changing the environment in behave we're changing the environment in a way that's either gonna get gained us a way that's either gonna get gained us a way that's either gonna get gained us outcomes or some kind now often when we outcomes or some kind now often when we outcomes or some kind now often when we work with animals we're very good or if work with animals we're very good or if work with animals we're very good or if you think about children how many times you think about children how many times you think about children how many times are we constantly suppressing behavior are we constantly suppressing behavior are we constantly suppressing behavior don't do that don't do it this way well don't do that don't do it this way well don't do that don't do it this way well that's not right I would do it this way that's not right I would do it this way

1:00:44

that's not right I would do it this way how many times do you who love these how many times do you who love these how many times do you who love these things and all of these things that things and all of these things that things and all of these things that we're doing is we're almost taking we're doing is we're almost taking we're doing is we're almost taking control away so behavior the function of control away so behavior the function of control away so behavior the function of behavior the reason for behavior is to behavior the reason for behavior is to behavior the reason for behavior is to change the environment but yet we often change the environment but yet we often change the environment but yet we often stopping animals from changing the stopping animals from changing the stopping animals from changing the environment they're chewing the environment they're chewing the environment they're chewing the furniture when we're chewing the furniture when we're chewing the furniture when we're chewing the curtains they're peeing on the furniture curtains they're peeing on the furniture curtains they're peeing on the furniture they're screaming or they're biting they're screaming or they're biting they're screaming or they're biting those things aren't a problem their those things aren't a problem their those things aren't a problem their problem for us but from the animals problem for us but from the animals problem for us but from the animals point of view those behaviors have point of view those behaviors have point of view those behaviors have function the animals are behaving for a function the animals are behaving for a function the animals are behaving for a reason them changing the outcome of the reason them changing the outcome of the reason them changing the outcome of the world they live in and that's their world they live in and that's their world they live in and that's their biology that's not something that biology that's not something that biology that's not something that someone invented or made the animals do someone invented or made the animals do someone invented or made the animals do animals are born being able to use their animals are born being able to use their animals are born being able to use their behavior to change the environment in behavior to change the environment in behavior to change the environment in which they live in and so for me when which they live in and so for me when which they live in and so for me when they change the environment able to live they change the environment able to live they change the environment able to live in in

1:01:25

in that's control so in a training session that's control so in a training session that's control so in a training session when we're applying the natural when we're applying the natural when we're applying the natural principles of behavior and often people principles of behavior and often people principles of behavior and often people think of learning theory behavioral think of learning theory behavioral think of learning theory behavioral principles has been invented by Skinner principles has been invented by Skinner principles has been invented by Skinner in a laboratory and that's not true in a laboratory and that's not true in a laboratory and that's not true Skinner discovered the principles he Skinner discovered the principles he Skinner discovered the principles he didn't invent them the principles of didn't invent them the principles of didn't invent them the principles of behavior science are naturally occurring behavior science are naturally occurring behavior science are naturally occurring phenomenon that occur because we live on phenomenon that occur because we live on phenomenon that occur because we live on this planet Earth and so it's not this planet Earth and so it's not this planet Earth and so it's not someone invented these principles or someone invented these principles or someone invented these principles or behavior science that reinforcement behavior science that reinforcement behavior science that reinforcement strengthens behavior Skinner studied why strengthens behavior Skinner studied why strengthens behavior Skinner studied why does be able to be that have happened does be able to be that have happened does be able to be that have happened more often or how does it change amis more often or how does it change amis more often or how does it change amis own conditions and he was trying to own conditions and he was trying to own conditions and he was trying to understand nature so when he described understand nature so when he described understand nature so when he described these principles of positive these principles of positive these principles of positive reinforcement extinction punishment he reinforcement extinction punishment he reinforcement extinction punishment he wasn't making things up he was applying wasn't making things up he was applying wasn't making things up he was applying labels essentially to naturally labels essentially to naturally labels essentially to naturally occurring phenomenon so when we're occurring phenomenon so when we're occurring phenomenon so when we're working with animals if we say that working with animals if we say that

1:02:12

working with animals if we say that behavior change behavior change behavior change the environment and that allows some the environment and that allows some the environment and that allows some kind of control for the animal so I do kind of control for the animal so I do kind of control for the animal so I do it this way I do it that way and I have it this way I do it that way and I have it this way I do it that way and I have small elements of control when we're small elements of control when we're small elements of control when we're taking these natural principles and taking these natural principles and taking these natural principles and applying them in what we label as applying them in what we label as applying them in what we label as training situations then if we're just training situations then if we're just training situations then if we're just restricting the animal from being able restricting the animal from being able restricting the animal from being able to have some control over the to have some control over the to have some control over the environment and they can do it one way environment and they can do it one way environment and they can do it one way that kind of takes away that element of that kind of takes away that element of that kind of takes away that element of having that control so for me I think having that control so for me I think having that control so for me I think when we're working with animals if when we're working with animals if when we're working with animals if control is a reinforcer then it's control is a reinforcer then it's control is a reinforcer then it's something we should be ensuring that we something we should be ensuring that we something we should be ensuring that we allow for the animals to have allow for the animals to have allow for the animals to have opportunity to have access to making opportunity to have access to making opportunity to have access to making those choices within a situation and those choices within a situation and those choices within a situation and they're never really going to have full they're never really going to have full they're never really going to have full control full choice because when we live control full choice because when we live control full choice because when we live with an animal we kind of take away lots with an animal we kind of take away lots with an animal we kind of take away lots of choices and control from them so when of choices and control from them so when of choices and control from them so when I have two parrots really they don't I have two parrots really they don't

1:02:59

I have two parrots really they don't have control over when they eat if they have control over when they eat if they have control over when they eat if they have access to water if they can have access to water if they can have access to water if they can reproduce if they can have social reproduce if they can have social reproduce if they can have social contact I have a pet dog ultimately I contact I have a pet dog ultimately I contact I have a pet dog ultimately I have all control over what he eats if he have all control over what he eats if he have all control over what he eats if he has access to food if he gets access to has access to food if he gets access to has access to food if he gets access to water if he gets access to social water if he gets access to social water if he gets access to social interactions and so when we talk about interactions and so when we talk about interactions and so when we talk about needing to be more in control of our needing to be more in control of our needing to be more in control of our animals I think that concept is just animals I think that concept is just animals I think that concept is just very outdated and does it make sense to very outdated and does it make sense to very outdated and does it make sense to me because we already control the me because we already control the me because we already control the animals life and so if we say that a animals life and so if we say that a animals life and so if we say that a part of living animals that have part of living animals that have part of living animals that have emotions and feelings and able to think emotions and feelings and able to think emotions and feelings and able to think that control is an important aspect of that control is an important aspect of that control is an important aspect of life and if we look at things like life and if we look at things like life and if we look at things like depression and look at learned depression and look at learned depression and look at learned helplessness or controls taken away and helplessness or controls taken away and helplessness or controls taken away and look at a negative effects that causes look at a negative effects that causes look at a negative effects that causes on the learners or those animals even on the learners or those animals even on the learners or those animals even humans when we talk about animals that humans when we talk about animals that humans when we talk about animals that are always anxious or nervous and are are always anxious or nervous and are are always anxious or nervous and are depressed or they label them with these

1:03:48

depressed or they label them with these depressed or they label them with these different conditions often taken away different conditions often taken away different conditions often taken away the opportunity for them to have control the opportunity for them to have control the opportunity for them to have control of the environment when something scary of the environment when something scary of the environment when something scary happens they can't move to a safe place happens they can't move to a safe place happens they can't move to a safe place because there's only certain situations because there's only certain situations because there's only certain situations available for them so looking at ways available for them so looking at ways available for them so looking at ways and their training that allow the animal and their training that allow the animal and their training that allow the animal to be able to operate on their to be able to operate on their to be able to operate on their environment and be able to say yes but environment and be able to say yes but environment and be able to say yes but also say no I think is so important I also say no I think is so important I also say no I think is so important I think we've always been focused on how think we've always been focused on how think we've always been focused on how can I make the animals say yes or do can I make the animals say yes or do can I make the animals say yes or do what I want them to do I think it's so what I want them to do I think it's so what I want them to do I think it's so important that we also embrace the nose important that we also embrace the nose important that we also embrace the nose and so we respect those nose we don't and so we respect those nose we don't and so we respect those nose we don't just say well the animal said no so I just say well the animal said no so I just say well the animal said no so I just need to hold the target stick out just need to hold the target stick out just need to hold the target stick out gain but you're asking why did the gain but you're asking why did the gain but you're asking why did the animal say no and so why the animal stop animal say no and so why the animal stop animal say no and so why the animal stop doing and I mention doing and I mention doing and I mention this early or I said it could be social this early or I said it could be social this early or I said it could be social stuff going on within the group stuff going on within the group stuff going on within the group it could be pain it could be there's so it could be pain it could be there's so

1:04:32

it could be pain it could be there's so many things that could be happening it many things that could be happening it many things that could be happening it could be that what we're asking the could be that what we're asking the could be that what we're asking the animal to do is not very reinforcing and animal to do is not very reinforcing and animal to do is not very reinforcing and so rather than just saying we're going so rather than just saying we're going so rather than just saying we're going to take with a food away and the animal to take with a food away and the animal to take with a food away and the animal has to do this in order to get food we has to do this in order to get food we has to do this in order to get food we give them access to food and they can go give them access to food and they can go give them access to food and they can go up and get that free food and we have to up and get that free food and we have to up and get that free food and we have to change the environment to make it more change the environment to make it more change the environment to make it more reinforcing for them to be with us I reinforcing for them to be with us I reinforcing for them to be with us I think that's the way I look at it is for think that's the way I look at it is for think that's the way I look at it is for me the philosophy of animals and working me the philosophy of animals and working me the philosophy of animals and working with animals is first and foremost they with animals is first and foremost they with animals is first and foremost they don't have choice to live with us don't have choice to live with us don't have choice to live with us whether they are a wild animal a whether they are a wild animal a whether they are a wild animal a domestic animal and just because we call domestic animal and just because we call domestic animal and just because we call them domestics again doesn't mean that them domestics again doesn't mean that them domestics again doesn't mean that they're programmed to know what human they're programmed to know what human they're programmed to know what human beings are they're not programmed to beings are they're not programmed to beings are they're not programmed to know how every single human hand will know how every single human hand will know how every single human hand will feel when they touch them and so whether feel when they touch them and so whether feel when they touch them and so whether they're domestic or they exotic or the they're domestic or they exotic or the they're domestic or they exotic or the wild they don't have a choice to live

1:05:13

wild they don't have a choice to live wild they don't have a choice to live with us and they're the ones who make with us and they're the ones who make with us and they're the ones who make those choices whether it's a rescue we those choices whether it's a rescue we those choices whether it's a rescue we label animals and rescue animals and label animals and rescue animals and label animals and rescue animals and then for some reason we want the animals then for some reason we want the animals then for some reason we want the animals to be grateful that we're caring for to be grateful that we're caring for to be grateful that we're caring for them well the animal didn't end up in them well the animal didn't end up in them well the animal didn't end up in the rescue situation because of the rescue situation because of the rescue situation because of something they did is because humans put something they did is because humans put something they did is because humans put them there in the first place and so them there in the first place and so them there in the first place and so whether that we're a human going into a whether that we're a human going into a whether that we're a human going into a rescue place and helping animals we rescue place and helping animals we rescue place and helping animals we shouldn't go in thinking I work in the shouldn't go in thinking I work in the shouldn't go in thinking I work in the rescue sit shelter or rescue center so rescue sit shelter or rescue center so rescue sit shelter or rescue center so I'm doing a great thing because we're I'm doing a great thing because we're I'm doing a great thing because we're the ones who have the choice to either the ones who have the choice to either the ones who have the choice to either go and work for a charity or rescue or go and work for a charity or rescue or go and work for a charity or rescue or not work for them those animals don't not work for them those animals don't not work for them those animals don't have any choice whether they're going to have any choice whether they're going to have any choice whether they're going to be there or not they have to be there be there or not they have to be there be there or not they have to be there and so my philosophy animal training is and so my philosophy animal training is and so my philosophy animal training is animals don't have a choice to do what animals don't have a choice to do what animals don't have a choice to do what we do so surely because we control we do so surely because we control we do so surely because we control everything around them anyway rather

1:05:55

everything around them anyway rather everything around them anyway rather than trying to become more dominant or than trying to become more dominant or than trying to become more dominant or trying to control them even more we need trying to control them even more we need trying to control them even more we need to give control back we need to be able to give control back we need to be able to give control back we need to be able to as much as it possible when we take a to as much as it possible when we take a to as much as it possible when we take a dog for a walk let's see if they want to dog for a walk let's see if they want to dog for a walk let's see if they want to walk left or right let's see if they walk left or right let's see if they walk left or right let's see if they want to go left why do we need to go want to go left why do we need to go want to go left why do we need to go right why do we always need to walk in right why do we always need to walk in right why do we always need to walk in one direction why do we always need to one direction why do we always need to one direction why do we always need to go to the park when we take a bird out go to the park when we take a bird out go to the park when we take a bird out or we ask the bird if I go downstairs or we ask the bird if I go downstairs or we ask the bird if I go downstairs and I'm gonna take my bird out to the and I'm gonna take my bird out to the and I'm gonna take my bird out to the aviary and I go downstairs and I ask my aviary and I go downstairs and I ask my aviary and I go downstairs and I ask my bird to step up in my hand and the bird bird to step up in my hand and the bird bird to step up in my hand and the bird says no by not stepping up where they says no by not stepping up where they says no by not stepping up where they walk away do I Creek you stepping up or walk away do I Creek you stepping up or walk away do I Creek you stepping up or say well I'm gonna ask him one more time say well I'm gonna ask him one more time say well I'm gonna ask him one more time or do I just say well they didn't step or do I just say well they didn't step or do I just say well they didn't step up and there's nothing else in the up and there's nothing else in the up and there's nothing else in the environment I can see that influence environment I can see that influence environment I can see that influence that maybe today they're gonna sit and that maybe today they're gonna sit and that maybe today they're gonna sit and sit on a perch indoors for a couple of sit on a perch indoors for a couple of

1:06:37

sit on a perch indoors for a couple of hours and I'll ask them again later on hours and I'll ask them again later on hours and I'll ask them again later on if they want to go out if they want to go out if they want to go out as opposed to well they have to go out as opposed to well they have to go out as opposed to well they have to go out and so if I pick up the dog lead and the and so if I pick up the dog lead and the and so if I pick up the dog lead and the dog stays in the bed then I walk over dog stays in the bed then I walk over dog stays in the bed then I walk over and say come on let's go for a walk and say come on let's go for a walk and say come on let's go for a walk or do I just put the dog lead down and or do I just put the dog lead down and or do I just put the dog lead down and go and do something else and so I think go and do something else and so I think go and do something else and so I think one of those things are so important one of those things are so important one of those things are so important little things like rather than just little things like rather than just little things like rather than just taking our food bowl and popping food taking our food bowl and popping food taking our food bowl and popping food down for your animals have a little toy down for your animals have a little toy down for your animals have a little toy or it could be an enrichment device that or it could be an enrichment device that or it could be an enrichment device that you have available to them and if they you have available to them and if they you have available to them and if they go up to that enrichment device and pick go up to that enrichment device and pick go up to that enrichment device and pick it up or they do something with it it up or they do something with it it up or they do something with it we walk over we get a handful of food we walk over we get a handful of food we walk over we get a handful of food and stuff it in the device and so the and stuff it in the device and so the and stuff it in the device and so the animal can say I'd like to eat now and animal can say I'd like to eat now and animal can say I'd like to eat now and if they got a toy and they bring it and if they got a toy and they bring it and if they got a toy and they bring it and we can take we can say that's not going we can take we can say that's not going we can take we can say that's not going to be realistic because if I have to to be realistic because if I have to to be realistic because if I have to work I have to go somewhere we not might work I have to go somewhere we not might

1:07:19

work I have to go somewhere we not might not be able to provide those not be able to provide those not be able to provide those opportunities all the time so we may opportunities all the time so we may opportunities all the time so we may just take that switch that toy away and just take that switch that toy away and just take that switch that toy away and put it into a cupboard but when we do put it into a cupboard but when we do put it into a cupboard but when we do have with I'm at home all day today have with I'm at home all day today have with I'm at home all day today rather than just put the food bowl down rather than just put the food bowl down rather than just put the food bowl down twice a day I'll leave out that toy and twice a day I'll leave out that toy and twice a day I'll leave out that toy and any time my dog goes up to a toy I'll any time my dog goes up to a toy I'll any time my dog goes up to a toy I'll take a handful of these food and pop it take a handful of these food and pop it take a handful of these food and pop it in there and give them the choice of in there and give them the choice of in there and give them the choice of when he can go and access that food as when he can go and access that food as when he can go and access that food as opposed to me just popping it down twice opposed to me just popping it down twice opposed to me just popping it down twice or I'll have the dog lead down and if he or I'll have the dog lead down and if he or I'll have the dog lead down and if he walks over and goes the dog lead I might walks over and goes the dog lead I might walks over and goes the dog lead I might go for a short walk at that time and so go for a short walk at that time and so go for a short walk at that time and so we always think about different ways we always think about different ways we always think about different ways that we can allow the animal to say well that we can allow the animal to say well that we can allow the animal to say well let's go for a walk now or let's eat now let's go for a walk now or let's eat now let's go for a walk now or let's eat now as opposed to saying we have to do it as opposed to saying we have to do it as opposed to saying we have to do it now and like I say it's not always going now and like I say it's not always going now and like I say it's not always going to be realistic but the animal can have to be realistic but the animal can have to be realistic but the animal can have what they want when they want what we what they want when they want what we what they want when they want what we can try and give as much control back as

1:08:00

can try and give as much control back as can try and give as much control back as we can the situation's we can so Connor we can the situation's we can so Connor we can the situation's we can so Connor it comes back to the previous question it comes back to the previous question it comes back to the previous question about thinking about what's happening in about thinking about what's happening in about thinking about what's happening in the present moment as opposed to what the present moment as opposed to what the present moment as opposed to what out in Gaza out in Gaza out in Gaza exactly that's nice full circle and exactly that's nice full circle and exactly that's nice full circle and questions but we will press on but questions but we will press on but questions but we will press on but before we do I just want to say you're before we do I just want to say you're before we do I just want to say you're you're really good at explaining this you're really good at explaining this you're really good at explaining this Tufts trick you've got a really good way Tufts trick you've got a really good way Tufts trick you've got a really good way of getting ideas out of your head and of getting ideas out of your head and of getting ideas out of your head and making them make sense and breaking them making them make sense and breaking them making them make sense and breaking them down and making them easy to understand down and making them easy to understand down and making them easy to understand so I think it's done great job thank you so I think it's done great job thank you so I think it's done great job thank you very much we are nearly at the end but very much we are nearly at the end but very much we are nearly at the end but that's okay because we're heading into that's okay because we're heading into that's okay because we're heading into one of my favorite parts of the podcast one of my favorite parts of the podcast one of my favorite parts of the podcast show and this part is called story time show and this part is called story time show and this part is called story time sure egg can you please share everyone sure egg can you please share everyone sure egg can you please share everyone less than two or three stories from your less than two or three stories from your less than two or three stories from your experience training animals so far and experience training animals so far and experience training animals so far and some of the important lessons that these some of the important lessons that these some of the important lessons that these have taught you yeah so let's go for a

1:08:45

have taught you yeah so let's go for a have taught you yeah so let's go for a human once so I started off running human once so I started off running human once so I started off running puppy classes doing one-to-one training puppy classes doing one-to-one training puppy classes doing one-to-one training sessions with primary dog owners pet sessions with primary dog owners pet sessions with primary dog owners pet owners and when I was running owners and when I was running owners and when I was running classes and I was going to do these classes and I was going to do these classes and I was going to do these one-to-one sessions often we'd say well one-to-one sessions often we'd say well one-to-one sessions often we'd say well the animals the easy part the humans are the animals the easy part the humans are the animals the easy part the humans are hard part and we're talking about hard part and we're talking about hard part and we're talking about questions like what happens when people questions like what happens when people questions like what happens when people don't always turn up to our class on don't always turn up to our class on don't always turn up to our class on time should we make them wait outside time should we make them wait outside time should we make them wait outside for a few more minutes or they're not for a few more minutes or they're not for a few more minutes or they're not listening to us we label them as listening to us we label them as listening to us we label them as stubborn or they don't care about the stubborn or they don't care about the stubborn or they don't care about the animals etc etc and so I remember this animals etc etc and so I remember this animals etc etc and so I remember this story really made me rethink about the story really made me rethink about the story really made me rethink about the way we relate to people and where we way we relate to people and where we way we relate to people and where we treat them in these situations as treat them in these situations as treat them in these situations as learners I was running a puppy class and learners I was running a puppy class and learners I was running a puppy class and we had a family signup and the first we had a family signup and the first we had a family signup and the first week remember the kids when I say kids week remember the kids when I say kids week remember the kids when I say kids they were probably eighteen to twenty they were probably eighteen to twenty they were probably eighteen to twenty plus they turned up with the puppy a plus they turned up with the puppy a

1:09:35

plus they turned up with the puppy a German Shepherd puppy and after week one German Shepherd puppy and after week one German Shepherd puppy and after week one they stopped coming to the classes but they stopped coming to the classes but they stopped coming to the classes but the mum in the family turned up every the mum in the family turned up every the mum in the family turned up every week where she would turn up late and week where she would turn up late and week where she would turn up late and every week we'd asked people to bring every week we'd asked people to bring every week we'd asked people to bring with them a selection of treats and toys with them a selection of treats and toys with them a selection of treats and toys and things like that and things like that and things like that and there were certain things that she and there were certain things that she and there were certain things that she wouldn't bring with them so one of the wouldn't bring with them so one of the wouldn't bring with them so one of the philosophies that we have in our classes philosophies that we have in our classes philosophies that we have in our classes is when people turn up if they ever turn is when people turn up if they ever turn is when people turn up if they ever turn up late or if they forget something or up late or if they forget something or up late or if they forget something or they don't bring it they don't bring it they don't bring it we never emphasize on the negative so we we never emphasize on the negative so we we never emphasize on the negative so we we just say sure we there's a table over we just say sure we there's a table over we just say sure we there's a table over there you can go help yourself to any there you can go help yourself to any there you can go help yourself to any trees that you want if you've forgotten trees that you want if you've forgotten trees that you want if you've forgotten your water boil and water and we don't your water boil and water and we don't your water boil and water and we don't say oh you forgot your water bowl as say oh you forgot your water bowl as say oh you forgot your water bowl as they come in if they don't put a they come in if they don't put a they come in if they don't put a waterfall down we'll ask them that waterfall down we'll ask them that waterfall down we'll ask them that because some water with you if they say because some water with you if they say because some water with you if they say no we'll just walk over and give them a no we'll just walk over and give them a

1:10:18

no we'll just walk over and give them a water bowl we don't try and punish them water bowl we don't try and punish them water bowl we don't try and punish them for not doing these things and so if for not doing these things and so if for not doing these things and so if they turn up late as soon as there's a they turn up late as soon as there's a they turn up late as soon as there's a moment we'll open the door let them in moment we'll open the door let them in moment we'll open the door let them in help them settle in and we just make it help them settle in and we just make it help them settle in and we just make it an exercise so if there's a dog training an exercise so if there's a dog training an exercise so if there's a dog training class we'll say to everyone else we've class we'll say to everyone else we've class we'll say to everyone else we've got another dog walking in now it's a got another dog walking in now it's a got another dog walking in now it's a great opportunity for your dogs to learn great opportunity for your dogs to learn great opportunity for your dogs to learn when the environment changes they can when the environment changes they can when the environment changes they can still be nice and calm and go lie in still be nice and calm and go lie in still be nice and calm and go lie in their bed as opposed to start barking their bed as opposed to start barking their bed as opposed to start barking and jumping up so the vets people are and jumping up so the vets people are and jumping up so the vets people are gonna walk in and out all the time if gonna walk in and out all the time if gonna walk in and out all the time if you're at home your dog might be you're at home your dog might be you're at home your dog might be sleeping you might get a visit or walk sleeping you might get a visit or walk sleeping you might get a visit or walk in so we just make it into a great in so we just make it into a great in so we just make it into a great training opportunity and so this lady training opportunity and so this lady training opportunity and so this lady turns up she completes the six weeks of turns up she completes the six weeks of turns up she completes the six weeks of class and if we're trying to read her class and if we're trying to read her class and if we're trying to read her mind you might say things like well she mind you might say things like well she mind you might say things like well she just didn't enjoy it maybe she didn't just didn't enjoy it maybe she didn't just didn't enjoy it maybe she didn't care she's never going to come back care she's never going to come back

1:11:01

care she's never going to come back again rather than focus on behavior and again rather than focus on behavior and again rather than focus on behavior and we never know what humans are thinking we never know what humans are thinking we never know what humans are thinking we can make up as many stories we can make up as many stories we can make up as many stories we want and so she turns up to class we want and so she turns up to class we want and so she turns up to class like I say for the six weeks at the end like I say for the six weeks at the end like I say for the six weeks at the end of the six-week course she comes up and of the six-week course she comes up and of the six-week course she comes up and says to me I'd like to book some says to me I'd like to book some says to me I'd like to book some one-to-one training sessions is I think one-to-one training sessions is I think one-to-one training sessions is I think that would work better and I was that would work better and I was that would work better and I was surprised that she wanted to carry on surprised that she wanted to carry on surprised that she wanted to carry on training just because of the little training just because of the little training just because of the little stories I'd been making up in my mind stories I'd been making up in my mind stories I'd been making up in my mind about this lesson and this situation so about this lesson and this situation so about this lesson and this situation so I turned up to a house the one-to-one I turned up to a house the one-to-one I turned up to a house the one-to-one training session and she says okay so training session and she says okay so training session and she says okay so I'd like to book 20 training sessions so I'd like to book 20 training sessions so I'd like to book 20 training sessions so 21/28 accessions buy expensive and 21/28 accessions buy expensive and 21/28 accessions buy expensive and that's quite a lot to book in one go that's quite a lot to book in one go that's quite a lot to book in one go because I said do you want to just look because I said do you want to just look because I said do you want to just look a few see how you get on you may not a few see how you get on you may not a few see how you get on you may not need 20 then we can just discuss it as need 20 then we can just discuss it as need 20 then we can just discuss it as we go on it says no no I'd like to book we go on it says no no I'd like to book we go on it says no no I'd like to book 20 now my husband's kind of said he's 20 now my husband's kind of said he's

1:11:47

20 now my husband's kind of said he's given me the money and said let's do 20 given me the money and said let's do 20 given me the money and said let's do 20 and it turns out that the husband is in and it turns out that the husband is in and it turns out that the husband is in the room next door and he's basically the room next door and he's basically the room next door and he's basically terminally ill he's got cancer and he's terminally ill he's got cancer and he's terminally ill he's got cancer and he's essentially gonna die in the next or essentially gonna die in the next or essentially gonna die in the next or coming month or two and they bought this coming month or two and they bought this coming month or two and they bought this dog where the kids have bought this dog dog where the kids have bought this dog dog where the kids have bought this dog this German Shepherd a family called this German Shepherd a family called this German Shepherd a family called this an Asian family they've never this an Asian family they've never this an Asian family they've never really had dogs in the family have used really had dogs in the family have used really had dogs in the family have used on maybe dogs are slightly different to on maybe dogs are slightly different to on maybe dogs are slightly different to different cultures have different views different cultures have different views different cultures have different views and so this mum had been left with this and so this mum had been left with this and so this mum had been left with this dog because now they've got this German dog because now they've got this German dog because now they've got this German Shepherd in the garden and it's not Shepherd in the garden and it's not Shepherd in the garden and it's not walking this dog she sees this dog she walking this dog she sees this dog she walking this dog she sees this dog she cares them the dog she's never really cares them the dog she's never really cares them the dog she's never really been around dogs she doesn't know what been around dogs she doesn't know what been around dogs she doesn't know what to do and so she's saying to me well to do and so she's saying to me well to do and so she's saying to me well then and take the dog for a walk they then and take the dog for a walk they then and take the dog for a walk they don't feed the dog so I'm having to do don't feed the dog so I'm having to do don't feed the dog so I'm having to do this I don't know really what dogs see I this I don't know really what dogs see I this I don't know really what dogs see I don't really know what dogs do but my

1:12:31

don't really know what dogs do but my don't really know what dogs do but my husband has said he wants to make sure husband has said he wants to make sure husband has said he wants to make sure things are taken care of and that really things are taken care of and that really things are taken care of and that really opened my eyes to thinking wow this lady opened my eyes to thinking wow this lady opened my eyes to thinking wow this lady is looking after her husband she has to is looking after her husband she has to is looking after her husband she has to run to a hospital any kind of something run to a hospital any kind of something run to a hospital any kind of something happens and it's just on that moment on happens and it's just on that moment on happens and it's just on that moment on the spur if your husband is sick she the spur if your husband is sick she the spur if your husband is sick she needs to get there really quickly and needs to get there really quickly and needs to get there really quickly and she's bringing this dog to training she's bringing this dog to training she's bringing this dog to training classes so if we had made it difficult classes so if we had made it difficult classes so if we had made it difficult for her if we punished her behavior for for her if we punished her behavior for for her if we punished her behavior for coming to class or we had said something coming to class or we had said something coming to class or we had said something in a sarcastic way or we'd made her way in a sarcastic way or we'd made her way in a sarcastic way or we'd made her way outside long with a key turned up or we outside long with a key turned up or we outside long with a key turned up or we made her feel bad for not bringing the made her feel bad for not bringing the made her feel bad for not bringing the treats are forgetting the treats again treats are forgetting the treats again treats are forgetting the treats again when people do things as a reason their when people do things as a reason their when people do things as a reason their behavior is influenced by their behavior is influenced by their behavior is influenced by their environment just like animals behavior environment just like animals behavior environment just like animals behavior is influenced by their environment the is influenced by their environment the is influenced by their environment the same principle apply to humans and it same principle apply to humans and it same principle apply to humans and it really highlighted for me the importance really highlighted for me the importance

1:13:13

really highlighted for me the importance of focusing on a positive reinforcement of focusing on a positive reinforcement of focusing on a positive reinforcement approach as opposed to a punishment approach as opposed to a punishment approach as opposed to a punishment based approach because so often we can based approach because so often we can based approach because so often we can think think think well that person doesn't care we make well that person doesn't care we make well that person doesn't care we make all these stories we can't read minds all these stories we can't read minds all these stories we can't read minds and so we don't know what's going on in and so we don't know what's going on in and so we don't know what's going on in people's lives we don't know what's people's lives we don't know what's people's lives we don't know what's going on that animals lives and so often going on that animals lives and so often going on that animals lives and so often we focus on the positive reinforcement we focus on the positive reinforcement we focus on the positive reinforcement approach without trying to make people approach without trying to make people approach without trying to make people feel bad about things I've gone wrong we feel bad about things I've gone wrong we feel bad about things I've gone wrong we don't know the larger picture so for me don't know the larger picture so for me don't know the larger picture so for me that's all we really illustrates an that's all we really illustrates an that's all we really illustrates an impact on how important it is to focus impact on how important it is to focus impact on how important it is to focus on we talk about positive reinforcement on we talk about positive reinforcement on we talk about positive reinforcement training but to really focus on the training but to really focus on the training but to really focus on the positive reinforcement approach and positive reinforcement approach and positive reinforcement approach and empowering approach as opposed to well empowering approach as opposed to well empowering approach as opposed to well we punish this because that person we punish this because that person we punish this because that person doesn't care all the animals being doesn't care all the animals being doesn't care all the animals being stubborn stubborn stubborn because often there's lots of other because often there's lots of other because often there's lots of other reasons why they do those things and reasons why they do those things and reasons why they do those things and this is about a human coming to your

1:13:58

this is about a human coming to your this is about a human coming to your class I feel there's almost into each class I feel there's almost into each class I feel there's almost into each other story and other people might be other story and other people might be other story and other people might be taking away different things but taking away different things but taking away different things but something that I'm taking away from it something that I'm taking away from it something that I'm taking away from it is this thing that we're doing and is this thing that we're doing and is this thing that we're doing and you've identified you do it I do it you've identified you do it I do it you've identified you do it I do it everyone I know does it as we tell the everyone I know does it as we tell the everyone I know does it as we tell the story in our mind it makes the most story in our mind it makes the most story in our mind it makes the most sense exactly exactly sense exactly exactly sense exactly exactly we create stories I think from a science we create stories I think from a science we create stories I think from a science point of view I don't know is a great point of view I don't know is a great point of view I don't know is a great answer so someone says something like answer so someone says something like answer so someone says something like there's something out there I don't know there's something out there I don't know there's something out there I don't know about I think is important to remember about I think is important to remember about I think is important to remember that we think this could be happening that we think this could be happening that we think this could be happening but actually the answer is I don't know but actually the answer is I don't know but actually the answer is I don't know and I are for me personally I'm quite and I are for me personally I'm quite and I are for me personally I'm quite content now at saying well I don't know content now at saying well I don't know content now at saying well I don't know until we know that information yes until we know that information yes until we know that information yes there's lots of possibilities and these there's lots of possibilities and these there's lots of possibilities and these are possibilities but that's all they are possibilities but that's all they are possibilities but that's all they are rather than creating historians are rather than creating historians are rather than creating historians starting trying to fill that void with starting trying to fill that void with

1:14:41

starting trying to fill that void with things so if i'm teaching i remember things so if i'm teaching i remember things so if i'm teaching i remember when i started doing presentations and when i started doing presentations and when i started doing presentations and workshops and teaching i'll be standing workshops and teaching i'll be standing workshops and teaching i'll be standing up doing a presentation and i've kind of up doing a presentation and i've kind of up doing a presentation and i've kind of be trying to work out what people are be trying to work out what people are be trying to work out what people are they happy are they not enjoying this they happy are they not enjoying this they happy are they not enjoying this i'm not what that person's got their i'm not what that person's got their i'm not what that person's got their phone out and so maybe i'm doing such an phone out and so maybe i'm doing such an phone out and so maybe i'm doing such an awful job so i'm trying to present my awful job so i'm trying to present my awful job so i'm trying to present my presentation but i'm also having this presentation but i'm also having this presentation but i'm also having this conversation in my head about what conversation in my head about what conversation in my head about what people are thinking and it kind of over people are thinking and it kind of over people are thinking and it kind of over time i've got much better at this but time i've got much better at this but time i've got much better at this but now it doesn't bother me if someone goes now it doesn't bother me if someone goes now it doesn't bother me if someone goes to pick up a phone well they walk out of to pick up a phone well they walk out of to pick up a phone well they walk out of the room my mind isn't thinking well the room my mind isn't thinking well the room my mind isn't thinking well that person mustn't be enjoying it all I that person mustn't be enjoying it all I that person mustn't be enjoying it all I say to myself is I don't know what's say to myself is I don't know what's say to myself is I don't know what's going on that person's life may be their going on that person's life may be their going on that person's life may be their partner sick maybe they need to take an partner sick maybe they need to take an partner sick maybe they need to take an urgent call at least they were there for urgent call at least they were there for urgent call at least they were there for the first 20 minutes or something I the first 20 minutes or something I the first 20 minutes or something I focus on what I'm doing and again it

1:15:24

focus on what I'm doing and again it focus on what I'm doing and again it comes back to mindfulness I think I comes back to mindfulness I think I comes back to mindfulness I think I talked about earlier is really trying to talked about earlier is really trying to talked about earlier is really trying to focus on rather than having that focus on rather than having that focus on rather than having that conversation I had constantly running conversation I had constantly running conversation I had constantly running weather constantly thinking about what's weather constantly thinking about what's weather constantly thinking about what's happening the future a part happening the future a part happening the future a part really leaving a full focus on the now really leaving a full focus on the now really leaving a full focus on the now and I was actually one of my favorite and I was actually one of my favorite and I was actually one of my favorite books of 2014 was when I read the power books of 2014 was when I read the power books of 2014 was when I read the power of now it really kind of that side home of now it really kind of that side home of now it really kind of that side home for me is how often we're constantly for me is how often we're constantly for me is how often we're constantly having this little conversation in our having this little conversation in our having this little conversation in our heads and we love this made up we don't heads and we love this made up we don't heads and we love this made up we don't actually know what's going on but we actually know what's going on but we actually know what's going on but we fooled those words with those stories fooled those words with those stories fooled those words with those stories and then as it creeped me of I'm wrong and then as it creeped me of I'm wrong and then as it creeped me of I'm wrong he can't told ya I got Tony he kept all he can't told ya I got Tony he kept all he can't told ya I got Tony he kept all I said very quickly and I've read their I said very quickly and I've read their I said very quickly and I've read their book my cell phone I never really drawn book my cell phone I never really drawn book my cell phone I never really drawn a connection with animal training until a connection with animal training until a connection with animal training until now but it's completely relevant thank now but it's completely relevant thank now but it's completely relevant thank you for that funny you say that because you for that funny you say that because you for that funny you say that because I yeah my reading is more sort of

1:16:11

I yeah my reading is more sort of I yeah my reading is more sort of exciting the books and books and then I exciting the books and books and then I exciting the books and books and then I read this book so I try and open-minded read this book so I try and open-minded read this book so I try and open-minded so I look at things I don't normally do so I look at things I don't normally do so I look at things I don't normally do this doctor about the audiobook and I this doctor about the audiobook and I this doctor about the audiobook and I became addicted I've listened to like became addicted I've listened to like became addicted I've listened to like six times over say playing and the more six times over say playing and the more six times over say playing and the more I listened to it the mice are thinking I listened to it the mice are thinking I listened to it the mice are thinking oh my god there's so many correlations oh my god there's so many correlations oh my god there's so many correlations and links to animal training and where I and links to animal training and where I and links to animal training and where I think about philosophy of animal think about philosophy of animal think about philosophy of animal training and I see more and more of that training and I see more and more of that training and I see more and more of that actually from some of the stuff I read actually from some of the stuff I read actually from some of the stuff I read in that book and so yeah if people in that book and so yeah if people in that book and so yeah if people haven't read it initially the first haven't read it initially the first haven't read it initially the first reader might think I'm other what's this reader might think I'm other what's this reader might think I'm other what's this but reading it and also once you read it but reading it and also once you read it but reading it and also once you read it once maybe a year later going back and once maybe a year later going back and once maybe a year later going back and with the new information that you've with the new information that you've with the new information that you've learned over that year you'll see the learned over that year you'll see the learned over that year you'll see the information in the book completely information in the book completely information in the book completely differently to what you would have one differently to what you would have one differently to what you would have one year ago so I definitely think for me year ago so I definitely think for me

1:16:55

year ago so I definitely think for me it's been a really good book and I love it's been a really good book and I love it's been a really good book and I love learning new things for me every time I learning new things for me every time I learning new things for me every time I read it very cards I've got one of read it very cards I've got one of read it very cards I've got one of audiobooks to get there onion I'm going audiobooks to get there onion I'm going audiobooks to get there onion I'm going to I've never listened to before I read to I've never listened to before I read to I've never listened to before I read it I'm gonna we listen to their book and it I'm gonna we listen to their book and it I'm gonna we listen to their book and just fully move on this is the same just fully move on this is the same just fully move on this is the same other animals isn't it we make up other animals isn't it we make up other animals isn't it we make up stories about animals all the time how stories about animals all the time how stories about animals all the time how all the time and I catch myself doing it all the time and I catch myself doing it all the time and I catch myself doing it the owl's be inspired for they're doing the owl's be inspired for they're doing the owl's be inspired for they're doing this or maybe they hate me or they're this or maybe they hate me or they're this or maybe they hate me or they're doing this and we really don't know we doing this and we really don't know we doing this and we really don't know we don't know what a human is thinking let don't know what a human is thinking let don't know what a human is thinking let alone trying to work out what animal is alone trying to work out what animal is alone trying to work out what animal is thinking yes they think I don't deny thinking yes they think I don't deny thinking yes they think I don't deny that animals think but the more time we that animals think but the more time we that animals think but the more time we spend trying to work out what they're spend trying to work out what they're spend trying to work out what they're thinking we should we really don't know thinking we should we really don't know thinking we should we really don't know and so when it does come to often when and so when it does come to often when and so when it does come to often when we turn that off and really focus on we turn that off and really focus on we turn that off and really focus on what the animals doing and arranging the what the animals doing and arranging the what the animals doing and arranging the environment so that we can give them as

1:17:45

environment so that we can give them as environment so that we can give them as many happy moments and we can many happy moments and we can many happy moments and we can given as much control as possible and given as much control as possible and given as much control as possible and changing behavior that way I think it changing behavior that way I think it changing behavior that way I think it makes a big difference and actually makes a big difference and actually makes a big difference and actually rather than trying to think I have to rather than trying to think I have to rather than trying to think I have to know what the animals thinking run just know what the animals thinking run just know what the animals thinking run just be contented going at this moment I be contented going at this moment I be contented going at this moment I really don't know there could be these really don't know there could be these really don't know there could be these five or six different options but I can five or six different options but I can five or six different options but I can sit here all night long trying to work sit here all night long trying to work sit here all night long trying to work out and create all these little stories out and create all these little stories out and create all these little stories but actually I don't know why that dog but actually I don't know why that dog but actually I don't know why that dog backs away when you raise your hand in backs away when you raise your hand in backs away when you raise your hand in the air and maybe that dogs never been the air and maybe that dogs never been the air and maybe that dogs never been hit but often it makes us feel happier hit but often it makes us feel happier hit but often it makes us feel happier to think or not happier there somehow we to think or not happier there somehow we to think or not happier there somehow we relate to the animal more the thing he's relate to the animal more the thing he's relate to the animal more the thing he's been abused and they kind of become more been abused and they kind of become more been abused and they kind of become more in sympathetic towards that learner and in sympathetic towards that learner and in sympathetic towards that learner and so amount of time to hear people say so amount of time to hear people say so amount of time to hear people say he's a rescue and but those labels also he's a rescue and but those labels also he's a rescue and but those labels also then hold the animal back if we didn't then hold the animal back if we didn't

1:18:29

then hold the animal back if we didn't label the animal as a rescue would they label the animal as a rescue would they label the animal as a rescue would they be very different now than they were if be very different now than they were if be very different now than they were if with that label often I think we label with that label often I think we label with that label often I think we label them as rescue animals and then we kind them as rescue animals and then we kind them as rescue animals and then we kind of hold them back because they're of hold them back because they're of hold them back because they're rescued they behave in this way but rescued they behave in this way but rescued they behave in this way but actually they may be behaving in this actually they may be behaving in this actually they may be behaving in this way because of the environment and the way because of the environment and the way because of the environment and the current conditions as well as the past current conditions as well as the past current conditions as well as the past conditions as a challenging skill to do conditions as a challenging skill to do conditions as a challenging skill to do and I have been practicing it throughout and I have been practicing it throughout and I have been practicing it throughout my journey as a trainer and in person as my journey as a trainer and in person as my journey as a trainer and in person as well and do you see there that we kind well and do you see there that we kind well and do you see there that we kind of feel good if we create these reasons of feel good if we create these reasons of feel good if we create these reasons and maybe we're going to more of us like and maybe we're going to more of us like and maybe we're going to more of us like psychology aspect in animal training SP psychology aspect in animal training SP psychology aspect in animal training SP right now from one understanding and right now from one understanding and right now from one understanding and maybe just cooking for a move on we maybe just cooking for a move on we maybe just cooking for a move on we can't have a need to do that don't you can't have a need to do that don't you can't have a need to do that don't you ever need to fill their gap and close ever need to fill their gap and close ever need to fill their gap and close that loop in our mind is the answer we I that loop in our mind is the answer we I that loop in our mind is the answer we I know I can relate to hack that we do it know I can relate to hack that we do it

1:19:21

know I can relate to hack that we do it so whether it's a biological need I so whether it's a biological need I so whether it's a biological need I don't know but we do it I know I do it don't know but we do it I know I do it don't know but we do it I know I do it and but why I think about in practice and but why I think about in practice and but why I think about in practice that I try and work for me having the that I try and work for me having the that I try and work for me having the idea that gee I don't know is a good idea that gee I don't know is a good idea that gee I don't know is a good enough answer and actually quite relaxed enough answer and actually quite relaxed enough answer and actually quite relaxed and happy and happy and happy I don't know so for me when I work with I don't know so for me when I work with I don't know so for me when I work with an animal and someone spends the first an animal and someone spends the first an animal and someone spends the first 10 15 20 minutes telling me what they 10 15 20 minutes telling me what they 10 15 20 minutes telling me what they think about the animal the hard life the think about the animal the hard life the think about the animal the hard life the animals had what's fact and what's animals had what's fact and what's animals had what's fact and what's fiction what's made up and within that fiction what's made up and within that fiction what's made up and within that 20 minutes a half an hour that was 20 minutes a half an hour that was 20 minutes a half an hour that was sitting there sympathizing about how sitting there sympathizing about how sitting there sympathizing about how hard this animals had a life that could hard this animals had a life that could hard this animals had a life that could have actually made changes which would have actually made changes which would have actually made changes which would have meant with what happier animal and have meant with what happier animal and have meant with what happier animal and a happier human a happier human a happier human and so yeah I don't know whether it's a and so yeah I don't know whether it's a and so yeah I don't know whether it's a biological need I hear people say that biological need I hear people say that biological need I hear people say that all the time but yeah I think it's all the time but yeah I think it's all the time but yeah I think it's something we can definitely work on and something we can definitely work on and something we can definitely work on and changing our own behaviors yeah and I changing our own behaviors yeah and I

1:20:10

changing our own behaviors yeah and I don't know if I've read stuff like you don't know if I've read stuff like you don't know if I've read stuff like you know if you watch a TV program and just know if you watch a TV program and just know if you watch a TV program and just before they finish to go to the before they finish to go to the before they finish to go to the commercials they leave you of a commercials they leave you of a commercials they leave you of a cliffhanger and I experience kind of cliffhanger and I experience kind of cliffhanger and I experience kind of like an uneasiness like I really want to like an uneasiness like I really want to like an uneasiness like I really want to like answer the question yeah is that like answer the question yeah is that like answer the question yeah is that how much learning goes into that so from how much learning goes into that so from how much learning goes into that so from an early age is that something that if an early age is that something that if an early age is that something that if you look at your parents you look at you look at your parents you look at you look at your parents you look at people around you you look at situations people around you you look at situations people around you you look at situations is that something that is taught to us is that something that is taught to us is that something that is taught to us through those modeling and how they through those modeling and how they through those modeling and how they behave and so if you've got a young behave and so if you've got a young behave and so if you've got a young child who from a young age you teach child who from a young age you teach child who from a young age you teach that in these situations it's fine to that in these situations it's fine to that in these situations it's fine to not know rather than create a story and not know rather than create a story and not know rather than create a story and they hear their parents create a story they hear their parents create a story they hear their parents create a story and so almost that becomes what is and so almost that becomes what is and so almost that becomes what is normal what we do in that situation so normal what we do in that situation so normal what we do in that situation so is it the human need or is it an early is it the human need or is it an early is it the human need or is it an early learning influence again I don't know is learning influence again I don't know is learning influence again I don't know is the answer but it's the question that the answer but it's the question that

1:21:01

the answer but it's the question that constantly asking is how much is learned constantly asking is how much is learned constantly asking is how much is learned I saw again all these basically think I saw again all these basically think I saw again all these basically think I'm watching a TV program in the UK that I'm watching a TV program in the UK that I'm watching a TV program in the UK that came out on the BBC and it was about came out on the BBC and it was about came out on the BBC and it was about children and their relation to gender children and their relation to gender children and their relation to gender identity and again this kind of guys are identity and again this kind of guys are identity and again this kind of guys are talking about I think it relates animal talking about I think it relates animal talking about I think it relates animal training really well and I use this in training really well and I use this in training really well and I use this in my presentations now a clip of this is my presentations now a clip of this is my presentations now a clip of this is they went to a professor one of the they went to a professor one of the they went to a professor one of the prominent universities studying brain prominent universities studying brain prominent universities studying brain scans and brain development and they scans and brain development and they scans and brain development and they asked her and they said let's look at asked her and they said let's look at asked her and they said let's look at scans and what differences are there scans and what differences are there scans and what differences are there early on in the brain of a young male early on in the brain of a young male early on in the brain of a young male brain - a female brain and her reply was brain - a female brain and her reply was brain - a female brain and her reply was there's very little difference and the there's very little difference and the there's very little difference and the modern research and the information that modern research and the information that modern research and the information that they have in terms of the brain and the they have in terms of the brain and the they have in terms of the brain and the areas of brain that developed there's areas of brain that developed there's areas of brain that developed there's very little different that she actually very little different that she actually very little different that she actually said something like what happens once said something like what happens once said something like what happens once the child starts to learn things and

1:21:51

the child starts to learn things and the child starts to learn things and interact and culture in the culture interact and culture in the culture interact and culture in the culture therein and things that happen shape and therein and things that happen shape and therein and things that happen shape and change how that brain develops and what change how that brain develops and what change how that brain develops and what they learn and so often people say well they learn and so often people say well they learn and so often people say well he was born knowing years ago and she's he was born knowing years ago and she's he was born knowing years ago and she's a boy actually a lot of the current a boy actually a lot of the current a boy actually a lot of the current research is now saying you can't say research is now saying you can't say research is now saying you can't say well that person behaves like this well that person behaves like this well that person behaves like this because she's a girl because a brain is because she's a girl because a brain is because she's a girl because a brain is wired that way actually the brains are wired that way actually the brains are wired that way actually the brains are very similar and what very similar and what very similar and what and afterwards shapes what are the brain and afterwards shapes what are the brain and afterwards shapes what are the brain changes in what ways and they also did changes in what ways and they also did changes in what ways and they also did an experiment where they got kids so an experiment where they got kids so an experiment where they got kids so these are young babies and so they got these are young babies and so they got these are young babies and so they got female and male babies and they dressed female and male babies and they dressed female and male babies and they dressed them in the opposite sex and they them in the opposite sex and they them in the opposite sex and they changed their names so they got the same changed their names so they got the same changed their names so they got the same thing on the button and they turned Tom thing on the button and they turned Tom thing on the button and they turned Tom into Jodi and they got Kate and they into Jodi and they got Kate and they into Jodi and they got Kate and they turned Kate into Tom by just pressing turned Kate into Tom by just pressing turned Kate into Tom by just pressing them in the opposite colors for clothes them in the opposite colors for clothes them in the opposite colors for clothes and changing the way their hair was and changing the way their hair was

1:22:39

and changing the way their hair was combed and then they got these adults to combed and then they got these adults to combed and then they got these adults to come in and so they had this child on a come in and so they had this child on a come in and so they had this child on a mat on the floor lots of toys mat on the floor lots of toys mat on the floor lots of toys surrounding the child and they had the surrounding the child and they had the surrounding the child and they had the adult come in and interact with the adult come in and interact with the adult come in and interact with the child and what they saw was when they child and what they saw was when they child and what they saw was when they walked in when they interacted if they walked in when they interacted if they walked in when they interacted if they interact with a girl they'd pick up or interact with a girl they'd pick up or interact with a girl they'd pick up or what we label was girl toys and they'd what we label was girl toys and they'd what we label was girl toys and they'd interact with those toys when they walk interact with those toys when they walk interact with those toys when they walk to him and they'd pick up off the floor to him and they'd pick up off the floor to him and they'd pick up off the floor boy toys and when they asked why did you boy toys and when they asked why did you boy toys and when they asked why did you do that people kind of said well I do that people kind of said well I do that people kind of said well I didn't do it purposefully it was just didn't do it purposefully it was just didn't do it purposefully it was just that the boy toy was closer to him then that the boy toy was closer to him then that the boy toy was closer to him then the girl toy or I just picked up the toy the girl toy or I just picked up the toy the girl toy or I just picked up the toy that I thought he would like he showed that I thought he would like he showed that I thought he would like he showed more interest in the action figure then more interest in the action figure then more interest in the action figure then he did the doll but actually that wasn't he did the doll but actually that wasn't he did the doll but actually that wasn't true because they picked up the action true because they picked up the action true because they picked up the action figure and they shoved in a child's face figure and they shoved in a child's face figure and they shoved in a child's face as opposed to giving the child the as opposed to giving the child the as opposed to giving the child the opportunity to play the doll too and

1:23:24

opportunity to play the doll too and opportunity to play the doll too and they were saying how from that early age they were saying how from that early age they were saying how from that early age we say men are better at this may not be we say men are better at this may not be we say men are better at this may not be true just state making examples you hear true just state making examples you hear true just state making examples you hear they were going then I bet they were going then I bet they were going then I bet problem-solving and women are better at problem-solving and women are better at problem-solving and women are better at doing this are those genetically doing this are those genetically doing this are those genetically predisposed things are people skills or predisposed things are people skills or predisposed things are people skills or are they things that children learn to are they things that children learn to are they things that children learn to be better at because from a young age be better at because from a young age be better at because from a young age people will interact with boys in a more people will interact with boys in a more people will interact with boys in a more physical way or these kinds of toys physical way or these kinds of toys physical way or these kinds of toys allow them to develop these skills allow them to develop these skills allow them to develop these skills whereas with girls whereas with girls whereas with girls maybe they offered these the other toys maybe they offered these the other toys maybe they offered these the other toys that allowed them to develop a different that allowed them to develop a different that allowed them to develop a different skill set so when we say well girls are skill set so when we say well girls are skill set so when we say well girls are better at this and boys are better at better at this and boys are better at better at this and boys are better at this is it a genetic thing or is it a this is it a genetic thing or is it a this is it a genetic thing or is it a learned behavior and the more and more learned behavior and the more and more learned behavior and the more and more we look at things it isn't nature or we look at things it isn't nature or we look at things it isn't nature or nurture there's both elements to it nurture there's both elements to it nurture there's both elements to it there's a genetic component and we're there's a genetic component and we're there's a genetic component and we're learning so much how much learning learning so much how much learning

1:24:09

learning so much how much learning influences biology and physiology how influences biology and physiology how influences biology and physiology how the brain is able to dysplastic and how the brain is able to dysplastic and how the brain is able to dysplastic and how it can change and so we can't really it can change and so we can't really it can change and so we can't really change what's inside of the animal but change what's inside of the animal but change what's inside of the animal but what we can do is we can really focus on what we can do is we can really focus on what we can do is we can really focus on how the angle interacts with the how the angle interacts with the how the angle interacts with the learning environment how that makes learning environment how that makes learning environment how that makes changes so for me that's why I'm really changes so for me that's why I'm really changes so for me that's why I'm really made in learning and behavior and how made in learning and behavior and how made in learning and behavior and how behavior interaction with the behavior interaction with the behavior interaction with the environment changes things so back to environment changes things so back to environment changes things so back to the rescue dog so if we got a rescue dog the rescue dog so if we got a rescue dog the rescue dog so if we got a rescue dog here we're saying it's a risky job where here we're saying it's a risky job where here we're saying it's a risky job where potentially because we've created that potentially because we've created that potentially because we've created that reality we're creating learning reality we're creating learning reality we're creating learning opportunities for that animal to be ear opportunities for that animal to be ear opportunities for that animal to be ear quotes because I'm not describing quotes because I'm not describing quotes because I'm not describing behaviors here using a label we're behaviors here using a label we're behaviors here using a label we're providing an environment for it to be a providing an environment for it to be a providing an environment for it to be a rescue dog because we're behaving in rescue dog because we're behaving in rescue dog because we're behaving in ways that we would expect a rescue dog ways that we would expect a rescue dog ways that we would expect a rescue dog would need exactly so we're not focusing would need exactly so we're not focusing would need exactly so we're not focusing on what the dog does we're focusing on on what the dog does we're focusing on

1:24:58

on what the dog does we're focusing on the picture that we've created with that the picture that we've created with that the picture that we've created with that label rescue so if I say okay so this is label rescue so if I say okay so this is label rescue so if I say okay so this is a rescue dog do people move slower do a rescue dog do people move slower do a rescue dog do people move slower do they produce things do they isolate the they produce things do they isolate the they produce things do they isolate the animal from more stimuli whereas if I animal from more stimuli whereas if I animal from more stimuli whereas if I say I'm gonna bring in a confident dog a say I'm gonna bring in a confident dog a say I'm gonna bring in a confident dog a well socialized dog people are less well socialized dog people are less well socialized dog people are less likely to move their chairs slowly likely to move their chairs slowly likely to move their chairs slowly they'll just get off their chair without they'll just get off their chair without they'll just get off their chair without thinking twice whereas if I say okay I'm thinking twice whereas if I say okay I'm thinking twice whereas if I say okay I'm gonna bring in a dog into this room and gonna bring in a dog into this room and gonna bring in a dog into this room and the dog is very sensitive how will the dog is very sensitive how will the dog is very sensitive how will people change their behavior now then people change their behavior now then people change their behavior now then how does that affect the learning that how does that affect the learning that how does that affect the learning that animal that and we'll never get close to animal that and we'll never get close to animal that and we'll never get close to fast moving chairs they never get fast moving chairs they never get fast moving chairs they never get exposed to things and just because I exposed to things and just because I exposed to things and just because I said it's a rescue dog it doesn't said it's a rescue dog it doesn't said it's a rescue dog it doesn't suddenly change what is still a dog and suddenly change what is still a dog and suddenly change what is still a dog and it's just a dog that ended up living in it's just a dog that ended up living in it's just a dog that ended up living in a kennel for six months but that dog a kennel for six months but that dog a kennel for six months but that dog living in the kennel for six months living in the kennel for six months living in the kennel for six months might have actually been better than a might have actually been better than a

1:25:41

might have actually been better than a pet dog who's lived in a back garden for pet dog who's lived in a back garden for pet dog who's lived in a back garden for six months six months six months the dog has lived in a kennel has been the dog has lived in a kennel has been the dog has lived in a kennel has been exposed to more people and way more exposed to more people and way more exposed to more people and way more situations then the dog in a garden so situations then the dog in a garden so situations then the dog in a garden so when we add these labels the kind of when we add these labels the kind of when we add these labels the kind of make an assumption was saying well this make an assumption was saying well this make an assumption was saying well this animal must have had this kind of life animal must have had this kind of life animal must have had this kind of life or we have to do this and we're almost or we have to do this and we're almost or we have to do this and we're almost living the story in our mind as opposed living the story in our mind as opposed living the story in our mind as opposed to what is the animal is actually to what is the animal is actually to what is the animal is actually capable of doing and we can hold them capable of doing and we can hold them capable of doing and we can hold them back and we also change our behavior back and we also change our behavior back and we also change our behavior there's a really excellent study and the there's a really excellent study and the there's a really excellent study and the name of the researchers is that goes up name of the researchers is that goes up name of the researchers is that goes up ahead as I say this but they basically ahead as I say this but they basically ahead as I say this but they basically took a group of children and they gave a took a group of children and they gave a took a group of children and they gave a fake IQ test and they said to a teacher fake IQ test and they said to a teacher fake IQ test and they said to a teacher these Grouper students are destined to these Grouper students are destined to these Grouper students are destined to do amazing they're going to be do amazing they're going to be do amazing they're going to be intelligent this group of students are intelligent this group of students are intelligent this group of students are not destined to do very well based on not destined to do very well based on not destined to do very well based on this fake IQ test and they watched how this fake IQ test and they watched how

1:26:27

this fake IQ test and they watched how the teacher changed their behavior and the teacher changed their behavior and the teacher changed their behavior and when they watch the teacher the behavior when they watch the teacher the behavior when they watch the teacher the behavior they found that she would interpret the they found that she would interpret the they found that she would interpret the behavior differences they say she asked behavior differences they say she asked behavior differences they say she asked Mary a question and mario's in the Mary a question and mario's in the Mary a question and mario's in the intelligent group she said Mary was 1+1 intelligent group she said Mary was 1+1 intelligent group she said Mary was 1+1 and Mary said um and Mary said um and Mary said um is it too and then she asked John and is it too and then she asked John and is it too and then she asked John and John's in the group that's not so John's in the group that's not so John's in the group that's not so intelligent and she asked John John was intelligent and she asked John John was intelligent and she asked John John was 1+1 and John said um is it too now the 1+1 and John said um is it too now the 1+1 and John said um is it too now the behavior is exactly the same is it too behavior is exactly the same is it too behavior is exactly the same is it too but when she they asked a teacher what but when she they asked a teacher what but when she they asked a teacher what did he think the teacher would say Mary did he think the teacher would say Mary did he think the teacher would say Mary is such a thoughtful child she thinks is such a thoughtful child she thinks is such a thoughtful child she thinks before she answers well if they asked before she answers well if they asked before she answers well if they asked her about John she would say wow John her about John she would say wow John her about John she would say wow John isn't very intelligent because it took isn't very intelligent because it took isn't very intelligent because it took him so long to answer the question yet him so long to answer the question yet him so long to answer the question yet the hopeful cause behavior is the same the hopeful cause behavior is the same the hopeful cause behavior is the same with both the learners do we do that with both the learners do we do that with both the learners do we do that with our animals do we label the animals with our animals do we label the animals with our animals do we label the animals are sensitive and confident then they do are sensitive and confident then they do

1:27:15

are sensitive and confident then they do something and because that's the something and because that's the something and because that's the confident learner we say oh yeah that confident learner we say oh yeah that confident learner we say oh yeah that learner is so intelligent they didn't learner is so intelligent they didn't learner is so intelligent they didn't this way but the animals because they're this way but the animals because they're this way but the animals because they're sensitive they did it this way and also sensitive they did it this way and also sensitive they did it this way and also they may notice that when the teacher they may notice that when the teacher they may notice that when the teacher was teaching she would give more eye was teaching she would give more eye was teaching she would give more eye contact more smiles more headlines more contact more smiles more headlines more contact more smiles more headlines more opportunities to answer the questions opportunities to answer the questions opportunities to answer the questions for the students that she thought was for the students that she thought was for the students that she thought was more intelligent than the students that more intelligent than the students that more intelligent than the students that weren't so intelligent and she didn't do weren't so intelligent and she didn't do weren't so intelligent and she didn't do this purposefully she didn't do this this purposefully she didn't do this this purposefully she didn't do this because she was planning to do it she because she was planning to do it she because she was planning to do it she did this unknowingly and only because did this unknowingly and only because did this unknowingly and only because they have observers watching her they have observers watching her they have observers watching her behavior and video cameras they realize behavior and video cameras they realize behavior and video cameras they realize this information and so how many times this information and so how many times this information and so how many times are we behaving unconsciously almost are we behaving unconsciously almost are we behaving unconsciously almost like without knowing that we're doing like without knowing that we're doing like without knowing that we're doing these things so when we say this animals these things so when we say this animals these things so when we say this animals aggressive how do we walk what do we do aggressive how do we walk what do we do aggressive how do we walk what do we do we may think oh I'm behaving normally we may think oh I'm behaving normally

1:27:58

we may think oh I'm behaving normally but actually watch ourselves back on but actually watch ourselves back on but actually watch ourselves back on video the way we put a hand on our bait video the way we put a hand on our bait video the way we put a hand on our bait bag the way we take a step probably is bag the way we take a step probably is bag the way we take a step probably is different around the animal that is different around the animal that is different around the animal that is labeled as aggressive compared to the labeled as aggressive compared to the labeled as aggressive compared to the animal whom we label as friendly and so animal whom we label as friendly and so animal whom we label as friendly and so when we have those labels often we when we have those labels often we when we have those labels often we change our behavior and we arrange the change our behavior and we arrange the change our behavior and we arrange the environment differently but we almost environment differently but we almost environment differently but we almost say well it's the animal that's doing is say well it's the animal that's doing is say well it's the animal that's doing is something inside the animal actually something inside the animal actually something inside the animal actually we've always changed the environment or we've always changed the environment or we've always changed the environment or set the environment so as I sell set the environment so as I sell set the environment so as I sell fulfilling prophecies as like saying fulfilling prophecies as like saying fulfilling prophecies as like saying yeah it's like saying it's a corvid so yeah it's like saying it's a corvid so yeah it's like saying it's a corvid so it can't stand still Sally it's all it can't stand still Sally it's all it can't stand still Sally it's all these don't stand still every time I go these don't stand still every time I go these don't stand still every time I go to a training session they're always to a training session they're always to a training session they're always jumping they're flying and living far so jumping they're flying and living far so jumping they're flying and living far so all qualitative part and then almost it all qualitative part and then almost it all qualitative part and then almost it becomes well they can't stand or that we becomes well they can't stand or that we becomes well they can't stand or that we have to do this I hear it sea lions as have to do this I hear it sea lions as have to do this I hear it sea lions as well they say we have to be really fast

1:28:41

well they say we have to be really fast well they say we have to be really fast a Californian sea line because they'll a Californian sea line because they'll a Californian sea line because they'll bite you if you stop or be pause bite you if you stop or be pause bite you if you stop or be pause I've seen people train them and work I've seen people train them and work I've seen people train them and work with them and teach them to do lots of with them and teach them to do lots of with them and teach them to do lots of in-between it's just a behavior in in-between it's just a behavior in in-between it's just a behavior in between being asked to do something between being asked to do something between being asked to do something standing or station and calm standing or station and calm standing or station and calm then you get to do the next behavior you then you get to do the next behavior you then you get to do the next behavior you becomes part of that repertoire learn to becomes part of that repertoire learn to becomes part of that repertoire learn to do it that is part of this reinforced do it that is part of this reinforced do it that is part of this reinforced behavior and so I think yeah definitely behavior and so I think yeah definitely behavior and so I think yeah definitely such great answer there and really such great answer there and really such great answer there and really really really enjoyed their conversation really really enjoyed their conversation really really enjoyed their conversation we will go to the final question and we will go to the final question and we will go to the final question and maybe you've already answered this maybe you've already answered this maybe you've already answered this multiple times in this podcast already multiple times in this podcast already multiple times in this podcast already straight could you just take us all into straight could you just take us all into straight could you just take us all into the future now and share what you would the future now and share what you would the future now and share what you would really like to see happen over the next really like to see happen over the next really like to see happen over the next five to ten years in the animal training five to ten years in the animal training five to ten years in the animal training world world world I wish I could take you into the future what would I like to see happen and what would I like to see happen and training in the future that's a really training in the future that's a really training in the future that's a really good question I would love to see from a

1:29:33

good question I would love to see from a good question I would love to see from a training perspective interacting with training perspective interacting with training perspective interacting with professional trainers I would really professional trainers I would really professional trainers I would really like to see a big change in it's like to see a big change in it's like to see a big change in it's happening more and more now in terms of happening more and more now in terms of happening more and more now in terms of training is thought of as part of an training is thought of as part of an training is thought of as part of an animal care program so Ken Ramirez animal care program so Ken Ramirez animal care program so Ken Ramirez teaches this he says just as one would teaches this he says just as one would teaches this he says just as one would not consider developing an animal care not consider developing an animal care not consider developing an animal care program without a nutritional component program without a nutritional component program without a nutritional component a social social component an a social social component an a social social component an environmental component a health environmental component a health environmental component a health component you shouldn't've having a component you shouldn't've having a component you shouldn't've having a behavior management program without a behavior management program without a behavior management program without a behavior component and so behavior and behavior component and so behavior and behavior component and so behavior and training isn't something we do to training isn't something we do to training isn't something we do to lengthy and do stuff but all animals on lengthy and do stuff but all animals on lengthy and do stuff but all animals on this planet behave and so therefore our this planet behave and so therefore our this planet behave and so therefore our behavior what we call training changing behavior what we call training changing behavior what we call training changing managing behavior should be part and managing behavior should be part and managing behavior should be part and anyone who cares for animals should be anyone who cares for animals should be anyone who cares for animals should be part of that program so yeah we we often part of that program so yeah we we often part of that program so yeah we we often think about training our animals for think about training our animals for think about training our animals for agility obedience teaching them to do agility obedience teaching them to do

1:30:20

agility obedience teaching them to do this that or the other but we don't this that or the other but we don't this that or the other but we don't think of it as just living in the animal think of it as just living in the animal think of it as just living in the animal and I think first and foremost training and I think first and foremost training and I think first and foremost training should be just that managing behavior should be just that managing behavior should be just that managing behavior from day to day life just living from day to day life just living from day to day life just living everything that we want rather than everything that we want rather than everything that we want rather than using training for anything in humans so using training for anything in humans so using training for anything in humans so we train the animals so our lives are we train the animals so our lives are we train the animals so our lives are easier we train them so they're more easier we train them so they're more easier we train them so they're more obedient or they easier to live with obedient or they easier to live with obedient or they easier to live with actually we use training we think about actually we use training we think about actually we use training we think about training every interaction we have with training every interaction we have with training every interaction we have with a learner and it just becomes a part of a learner and it just becomes a part of a learner and it just becomes a part of life as opposed to using it for some life as opposed to using it for some life as opposed to using it for some kind of an outcome that benefits our so kind of an outcome that benefits our so kind of an outcome that benefits our so I think it'd be nice to have training as I think it'd be nice to have training as I think it'd be nice to have training as just part of an animal care program as just part of an animal care program as just part of an animal care program as opposed to I either choose to train or I opposed to I either choose to train or I opposed to I either choose to train or I don't choose to train and I still go to don't choose to train and I still go to don't choose to train and I still go to places and I hear people say and this is places and I hear people say and this is places and I hear people say and this is not just Sue's not just Sue's not just Sue's I hear a companion like dog trainer say I hear a companion like dog trainer say I hear a companion like dog trainer say to me oh yeah I believe in having a to me oh yeah I believe in having a to me oh yeah I believe in having a natural

1:31:07

natural natural relationship I don't believe in this relationship I don't believe in this relationship I don't believe in this training stuff and and I hear truckers training stuff and and I hear truckers training stuff and and I hear truckers do dues as well say to me you know no we do dues as well say to me you know no we do dues as well say to me you know no we like to keep it natural I went off for like to keep it natural I went off for like to keep it natural I went off for this training and I think it's just such this training and I think it's just such this training and I think it's just such a misunderstanding about what training a misunderstanding about what training a misunderstanding about what training actually is like I said at one point in actually is like I said at one point in actually is like I said at one point in my conversation was it's a natural my conversation was it's a natural my conversation was it's a natural phenomenon that occurred by living on phenomenon that occurred by living on phenomenon that occurred by living on this planet and so when we live with this planet and so when we live with this planet and so when we live with animals their behavior is going to animals their behavior is going to animals their behavior is going to change based on outcomes and the way we change based on outcomes and the way we change based on outcomes and the way we arrange the environment so whether we arrange the environment so whether we arrange the environment so whether we choose to believe it or not is happening choose to believe it or not is happening choose to believe it or not is happening and so if we can educate ourselves about and so if we can educate ourselves about and so if we can educate ourselves about it we can be in the driver seat Susan it we can be in the driver seat Susan it we can be in the driver seat Susan Schneider has a quote ultimately knowing Schneider has a quote ultimately knowing Schneider has a quote ultimately knowing what drives us puts us in the driver's what drives us puts us in the driver's what drives us puts us in the driver's seat and so understanding or knowing seat and so understanding or knowing seat and so understanding or knowing what drives us knowing how behavior what drives us knowing how behavior what drives us knowing how behavior changes gives us more control allows us changes gives us more control allows us changes gives us more control allows us to be able to use that information to to be able to use that information to to be able to use that information to both benefit further the lives of the both benefit further the lives of the

1:31:56

both benefit further the lives of the animals that we care for and the people animals that we care for and the people animals that we care for and the people that we work with I think the science is that we work with I think the science is that we work with I think the science is just giving us information about how the just giving us information about how the just giving us information about how the universe naturally functions so if we universe naturally functions so if we universe naturally functions so if we take the time to listen and learn and take the time to listen and learn and take the time to listen and learn and observe this information we can be observe this information we can be observe this information we can be better than we can be in the driver's better than we can be in the driver's better than we can be in the driver's seat and have more control so it's a seat and have more control so it's a seat and have more control so it's a good answer and solid you brought up good answer and solid you brought up good answer and solid you brought up Susan Snyder because we are in Susan Snyder because we are in Susan Snyder because we are in discussion so hopefully get here on a discussion so hopefully get here on a discussion so hopefully get here on a podcast from the future podcast from the future podcast from the future fantastic you should definitely anyone fantastic you should definitely anyone fantastic you should definitely anyone you get the chance to hear Susan Snyder you get the chance to hear Susan Snyder you get the chance to hear Susan Snyder speak and definitely go and read her speak and definitely go and read her speak and definitely go and read her book the signs of consequences I'd book the signs of consequences I'd book the signs of consequences I'd highly recommend having Susan here and highly recommend having Susan here and highly recommend having Susan here and be able to listen to her yes hopefully be able to listen to her yes hopefully be able to listen to her yes hopefully we will be bringing you their we will be bringing you their we will be bringing you their opportunity really surely sadly sure egg opportunity really surely sadly sure egg opportunity really surely sadly sure egg there does bring us to the inn before we there does bring us to the inn before we there does bring us to the inn before we wrap up though we've seen it before well wrap up though we've seen it before well wrap up though we've seen it before well it's just from one everyone listening it's just from one everyone listening it's just from one everyone listening where they can go to find out more

1:32:39

where they can go to find out more where they can go to find out more information about yourself what you do information about yourself what you do information about yourself what you do in your activities over the coming we in your activities over the coming we in your activities over the coming we walk yeah so you can go on my website walk yeah so you can go on my website walk yeah so you can go on my website which is domesticated manners calm and which is domesticated manners calm and which is domesticated manners calm and if you're on Facebook if you go to if you're on Facebook if you go to if you're on Facebook if you go to facebook-dot-com forward-slash charac facebook-dot-com forward-slash charac facebook-dot-com forward-slash charac patel DM and that will take you to my patel DM and that will take you to my patel DM and that will take you to my professional page on Facebook and I professional page on Facebook and I professional page on Facebook and I often post upcoming events information often post upcoming events information often post upcoming events information videos I do live feeds and so you guys videos I do live feeds and so you guys videos I do live feeds and so you guys can follow me on there fantastic and all can follow me on there fantastic and all can follow me on there fantastic and all into all of us from the podcast right up into all of us from the podcast right up into all of us from the podcast right up so from myself and on behalf of everyone so from myself and on behalf of everyone so from myself and on behalf of everyone listing tareq thank you so much for listing tareq thank you so much for listing tareq thank you so much for making time to come on the show today making time to come on the show today making time to come on the show today it's been really appreciated thank you it's been really appreciated thank you it's been really appreciated thank you for having me it's just wonderful to be for having me it's just wonderful to be for having me it's just wonderful to be able to have these discussions Dury and able to have these discussions Dury and able to have these discussions Dury and if you if you if you listening enjoyed this episode today listening enjoyed this episode today listening enjoyed this episode today anywhere interested in carrying on the anywhere interested in carrying on the anywhere interested in carrying on the conversation about most positive less conversation about most positive less conversation about most positive less intrusive ways of influencing behavior intrusive ways of influencing behavior

1:33:30

intrusive ways of influencing behavior then as mentioned and start the episode then as mentioned and start the episode then as mentioned and start the episode the animal training academy community is the animal training academy community is the animal training academy community is waiting for you get on over to WWE and waiting for you get on over to WWE and waiting for you get on over to WWE and kanima calm and click on the membership kanima calm and click on the membership kanima calm and click on the membership button and the main menu to learn all button and the main menu to learn all button and the main menu to learn all about how you can connect with about how you can connect with about how you can connect with like-minded a positive reinforcement like-minded a positive reinforcement like-minded a positive reinforcement based animal trainers from around the based animal trainers from around the based animal trainers from around the globe whether you're training dogs cats globe whether you're training dogs cats globe whether you're training dogs cats other pets bird zoo animals implementing other pets bird zoo animals implementing other pets bird zoo animals implementing techniques within your vet clinic or any techniques within your vet clinic or any techniques within your vet clinic or any other area where behavior management is other area where behavior management is other area where behavior management is required and you will love all the required and you will love all the required and you will love all the different ways you can join them forums different ways you can join them forums different ways you can join them forums whatsapp chats private Facebook group whatsapp chats private Facebook group whatsapp chats private Facebook group Members Only Live with classes is Members Only Live with classes is Members Only Live with classes is something if we absolutely everyone and something if we absolutely everyone and something if we absolutely everyone and we're really looking forward to having we're really looking forward to having we're really looking forward to having you join the tribe that's it for this you join the tribe that's it for this you join the tribe that's it for this episode though we'll wrap it up there episode though we'll wrap it up there episode though we'll wrap it up there thanks again so much for listening but thanks again so much for listening but thanks again so much for listening but for now we have to hit the road episode for now we have to hit the road episode for now we have to hit the road episode you'll be hearing from us real soon