투쟁이 빠르게 배우는 비결인 이유! Ivan Balabanov

very very big and very very influential and I would end up with the people that knew me at the time come to the workshop but also saw a great deal of people that are actually 100% force-free and some of them are very good trainers and some of them are just really kind of just ideologies and but they they basically confuse the name without conflict. So that means without aversives or without whatever they you can make you you can see how the name is challenging in a lot of ways. Um so it was very interesting to see people coming to my workshops and seminars and being disappointed in the beginning of them and eventually starting to like it because they end up not yelling at their dogs. They think that yelling is a well it's a forcefree apparently. Anyway, so that that was interesting. Um, I I got very very early on the opportunity to interact with force trainers and like a hardcore force advocate trainers in my workshops and at the moment, you know, there would be a prone caller or or whatever and there will be a conversation. I I love those times because um you know when you have conversation is different than than you know fighting on a keyboard like like you really you it's like hey I mean I I can help you with your dog whichever way you want to. Trust me I know that I can help with I I'm seeing you. I know I can help you. I don't need nothing. I can just give you any advice and go in any directions you want. And so that was one interesting one. And then there was another one on the other spectrum, the other extreme if you want of like the the balance trainers and not so much whatever that balance goes along with but but like in the sport world, the high level sport world, there is always a place and time for some conflict because and We we can talk later about this. Um and and I fully agree with that and I absolutely uh uh use some challenges if you want to call it that way in the training. But what training without conflict really stands for is to me it's very simple. It it basically stands for the ability of a trainer to teach something without confusing the dog, without shutting down the dog. And and when you confuse a dog or the dog gets shut down and doesn't believe they can solve a puzzle, there is a conflict. And so when I'm talking about conflict, that's the conflict I talk about. But in the small scheme of things, resolving conflict is very beneficial for everybody. For you, for me, for any living species. If you can resolve it, you come out very strong. But there is places and time where you put conflict in a very uh uh planned setup. So, um yeah, that that's really what

training without conflict means. It's being a very like being able to create a very good plan regardless of what type of training you're doing. Understanding that your training plan most likely it's going to have some holes. And as you go along, you're going to have to be able to improvise and make sure that at the end of the tunnel, the dox is the light and the tunnel is not that long. Right? So that's really what uh uh training without conflict in a in a nutshell is about. it it's basically learn how to teach, learn how to problem solve. And I I I can tell you something that probably is going to just really fit in right uh uh into what training without conflict is because uh um you know and again I don't this getting a little bit tricky here but um I don't want to I don't want to say that uh um you know when people use engagement and relationship and there is certain cliche words that are extremely trendy and they've been trendy for at least good 10 years now that you can hear them all the time and sometimes it's just in a world of salad but they are just thrown out there because that's the the dog trainers lingo right now. Um, so I want to say something about trainer or owner and dog interaction without using these words. And for me, what is important, I call them the ingredients. I need to have a report with my dog. Everybody's going to say, "Duh, of course. Who Who wouldn't want a report?" Well, to have a report, what do we need? We need to have effective communication and we need to have something very special and that is conflict resolution skills. This is when things go sideways and how we go about it. Are we forgiving? Are we a good teacher? Are we losing our temper? What do we do when how how good we are in conflict resolution skills? If we're good, we're going to have rapport. But because of that report, because of this effective communication and conflict resolution skills, we actually are going to the next super important point and this is trust. Having trust with your dog is is of utmost importance. Not me trusting him, not him trusting me. It's we are trusting each other. This is really really important. And if we lack in having a good report, there is no way the dog is trusting you. Yes, they can perform. They can do amazing things, but

they don't have to trust you. And most likely, if you are not trustworthy, they are they know it. And and so you have report if the report is good and if only if the report is good you can have trust and trust again is essential. When you have trust then the next ingredient if you want to call it that way would be motivation. When you have trust, you will have healthy motivation. When you don't have trust, you still have motivation, but it's not going along with you. I want that ball, but I want that ball you right. So, there is a what I call healthy motivation and unhealthy motivation. And to have that type of motivation that we all strive for, you need to have trust. And to have trust, you need to have a clear rapport that starts from day one. You you build a rapport of who you are towards that dog. How how good you are of explaining and communicating. how good you are of who you are when problems come up. As I said, the conflict resolution skills. So, report, trust, healthy motivation. Now, we need to have shared goals and that goes to cooperation. And when we have cooperation, so let let me break them back again. Report, trust, healthy motivation and cooperation. That's all one would need to do insanely cool things with their dogs. Regardless of being force free, being balanced, being wherever you are because you will again when things go wrong, you know how to resolve them. When things go right, you know how to motivate, you have the cooperation, you have the you you have all the ingredients, as I call them. And the one last piece of it if you want that kind of doesn't quite fit in the ingredients but it has to be mentioned and that is the um ethical consideration you know like like how far you're going like do you have to is there a better way right so that's uh um you know when I when I think about what training without conflict is and and like If I start my my at least one of my lessons with my classes with my students, that would be uh a part that we will go in very deep so they understand that if you have this component, you have something very special and we can forgive each other, but we have motivation and we have cooperation and we have trust and we have good report. What can we possibly not do that's doable, right? >> Yeah. And I like the name training without conflict, too. And I find that very interesting that there was a significant amount of people that

assumed that meant that you were pure positive, that no conflict or training without conflict meant, well, we're not going to use any sort of punishment within the training. And of course, when we're looking at pure positive or reward-based training, primarily, they use punishment. They just use negative punishment. They often choose not to lean towards the positive punishment. And you said conflict often arises with inadequate or lack of proper communication and of course as you said having a strong rapport that relationship having trust and then healthy motivation as well. What are some of the most common things that trainers do that creates conflict by unintentionally lacking in the communication skills? So, like I a quick example, um I had a lesson earlier today and the student wanted me to review her training footage and she was saying multiple commands, not following through with any sort of cue to get the dog to do behavior, saying no, then saying, "Uh-uh, these things didn't mean anything." And because of that, the dog was doing whatever the dog wanted. Now, she wasn't giving the dog any sort of corrections because, of course, poorly timed corrections, and unfair corrections can cause a lot of issues, and she needs to work on her timing on rewards before she does that. But there was a lot of conflict because of that lack of communication. What are some of the ways, as I said earlier, that you've seen issues come up from someone not being able to clearly and effectively communicate? Like what are some of the most common mistakes? >> Mhm. Wow. Yeah. It kind of ma makes me almost want to go back and repeat what we just mentioned about the report and trust and motivation cooperation because because there is that element of again when you have all that you also have forgiveness and you have the motivation the willingness to go on. So it's very interesting because uh like I will tell you um before I I answer this there is a interesting one that um um we talk about often and and that is when somebody doesn't somebody meaning not a dog trainer just a pet owner when they have those ingredients and they're trying to teach something it is amazing to watch. I um I was one maybe a year ago or so. I was overseas uh working with some clients there and they had trainers that are working with their dogs. They're kind of well off people and and just for because I let let me back up something here. I I always believe like like I really firmly believe that we have a gift or maybe it's not even a gift. I I don't think it's even something that special if we just become more grounded and reasonable. I think humans have a

ways of connecting and communicating with dogs what we want. Maybe there is many sharper sharp edges. Maybe things need to be ironed out. But it's interesting to watch when somebody is not a trainer, but there is those ingredients and their mistakes that are happening. So, for example, I'm like, "Okay, can you guys teach the dog to go on a well, what you would typically like in dog training lingo would you say teach him to go to a place, right?" And and I don't tell them what to do or how to do. And they're doing all sorts of crazy stuff. I mean, crazy stuff that I I just I'm like, "Okay, I I have to jump in." I mean, I just have to like like you know how difficult it is when you're a dog trainer and you see just things that in your head do not make sense whatsoever. But I'm like, "No, but I created this scenario, this setup. Let's play it out." And so for example, just to just to give you some ideas of what they were doing to teach a place, they would put the dog over there on a sit. They will come in front of the whatever that basket or dog bed and make a recall. So the dog basically comes on the top. And I'm like, "Okay guys, but this is very cool, but what do you do next?" Cuz remember what I want is you're going to stay here and you will send him there. I just can't help myself. I'm thinking this is not going to work. Well, in three days, three people and three dogs, they all made it to the end. Was there struggle? For sure. I have a three days of video that I I have so much video footage that I don't know when I'm going to put things together. But uh at least for my school I I kind of try to put some snippets of important stuff. But my point is uh I think you and and probably the listeners already getting my point that when we have the rapport, the truth, the motivation, the corporation, we can screw up. We don't know what to do. And guess what? The dog also knows. Dude, you have no idea what you're trying to make me do, but I'm going along with you because I trust you and because it's a puzzle and let's let's go. So, it's very cool in this way. Now, let me see how I bring that all the way back to your question. Um, excuse me. I think uh um you know communication markers signals basically whatever you want to call it like I call it for a very specific reason signals instead of markers but that's a very different topic but basically when we're talking about feedback because that's kind of what it is ultimately Um, when I first start to teach, if it's a dog, whatever kind of dog it will be, but if I if I start teaching a dog, I will be

very very rigid as far as, well, that's your approval, that's your disapproval, that's your release, that's your uh punishment, and and so on and so And that's your okay are you ready? what whatever like as many cues as you want to do or as little as you need to eventually though something that I very firmly believe in communication it's a what what what is communication what what kind of feedback we give to each other it's it's a language like like it or not but we are talking to each other or at least I'm talking to the dog but the dog understands what I'm talking about, right? And there was a time when I would do some workshop or seminar and and everybody is watching me and it's silent. It's you didn't say good or you didn't release it or you didn't. And I'm like, no, I didn't. But didn't I? Cuz I know I did. My dog knows what I did, but nobody else does. Why? Because I believe that there is a certain place where language actually expands. Think of uh um again, I mean, I come from Eastern Europe, from Bulgaria. I lived in Belgium. I lived like I I've been married to a German woman, Polish right now. Like I know I know how languages work. Imagine a a lesson of hello, my name is Ivan, I am 20 years old and da da what's your name? Hello, nice to meet you. You know, this is the basic language uh model to learn. At least it was back then. But once you get that, you can stay there or you can accept the fact that you know each other and you like you can say free or okay or or or whatever you want because we know each other at this point. I mean, think about it. How many ways somebody can call their dog to come if the dog is paying attention to them, right? >> Plenty of ways. Yeah. Multiple ways, >> right? So um uh I think that I I don't want to you know take away the importance of the beginning of having structured cues but there is a place and time that I think this can evolve and we don't need to be so rigid. Um when some sometimes when I watch trainers and it's like man you you didn't it's like he didn't have to I mean he can just swing you know like the I mean not to go again off the rails here but the clever hands the horse that did mathematics you know I mean nobody can pick up on how the trick was working because it was so subtle. Mhm. I know what you're talking about. >> Right. The the the owner of the horse would be behind and would tell him how many times to stop and when to stop and so on. So language I think it's important for us to to kind of open our minds and

understand that it's super super important to start somewhere but eventually we can take it further. We don't have to stay there. Now in let's see how I go back to your question. In in your question basically what what you're saying is the person doesn't have that fundamental understanding of how feedback are given and does the dog understands the feedback. Right. >> Right. Like they're sending mixed signals. So, if you were watching the human train, you would be thinking to yourself, well, I don't even know what the words mean, what you're saying, because none of them are consistent with predicting something that the dog can learn and pick up on. And that what I was saying to to build on the name of your school was it creates conflict. And the conflict may not even be the conflict from the dog. It could be the conflict of the frustration of the owner not getting the results that they think they should be getting because they're putting in the time. But there's mixed signals. And I do want to say one other thing too that came up while you were talking is the evolution of a dog trainer. If we think about a dog trainer who's just starting out, when we learn, especially if we're learning online, a lot of the information in order for it to be effective, I think needs to be very black and white for someone new. But as they evolve, then they start to see the gray areas and how they can adjust. And an example that I thought of while you were telling me your story where you're doing the seminar and someone said you didn't say uh yes or you didn't reward or mark or something like that. Well, in the beginning we say okay when the dog does a behavior you want to mark it with the condition reinforcer that predicts the reward event. The dog repeats the behavior that predicts the marker. But >> right, if we're using a marker and we think about the reasons why we use it, okay, to bridge the gap between the behavior and consequence to pinpoint fine details in training to release and reward simultaneously. But if the dog's looking at me and as you said, there's a strong rapport, there's trust, there's healthy motivation, there's focus, and you don't mark a behavior, but you move to get a reward or you move to grab the toy or as you said, you give the dog a wink. They pick up on these signals and you're still teaching the dog incredibly effective, but you're not doing it this exact black and white way because you know it at a much deeper level than someone who's just starting out. Whereas someone who's brand new, they're like every behavior, mark and reward, mark and reward, mark and reward. It's like, well, we don't have to mark every time.

Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. And I'm sure there's plenty of other examples that could build on that, but I think that's what happens with someone early on. And as we continue to evolve, because I still consider myself evolving. I've only been doing this for about 13 years, and I'm constantly learning new things. And I'll pick up something I'm like, I can't believe for the past 13 years I've been doing that in a way that's less effective had I known that prior, but maybe I wasn't ready for the information. And it came to me when I was ready for it perhaps. No, that that's again also very true thing and that goes for it should go for everybody including somebody like me that's I don't know how how whatever the accomplishments and whatever you know I mean like there is no yeah like like of course we have to continue on there is always something more like really there is always something more I mean I'm off onto some crazy trips right now in my head and and Maybe if we have time we go into that later. But um um you know the reason I brought those trainers I mean not trainers the the people that I was trying to teach him to go to place sometimes for a teacher teacher is a very I mean we know like like I I you have like you go back in your to your childhood. Anybody goes back into their childhood, there is a classes that you like to go to and there are classes that you did not. And they don't necessarily have to be where your talents were. It just about how captivating the teacher was. But what does it mean to be captivating? He had rapport. He built trust. He created motivation. He created cooperation. He created conversation. He intrigued you. even it was something that you didn't care about and there was conflict resolution still there was pain so so to to to say something interesting for for everybody that is teaching pet owners sometimes it's uh um it's very cool to allow them to struggle within some limits, right? >> Because sometimes specifically when both parties recognize that they're trying to get something out of that situation of that puzzle, but the dog doesn't get it and the teacher is not capable. But there is the struggle that I call and some really beautiful things come out of that. Um and often the dog trainer wants to have that rigid. It's like no no this is exactly the moment that you missed already that you just should have said good boy or you should have ticked or should have you should have something right. I suggest the trainers become a little more patient and observant and see how things roll because there is always a time for the trainer to give very constructive feedback when they really need it. But

make sure that they really need it because sometimes one struggle leads to finding a way ultimately how to for us to communicate in in the long run. But as you said, there has to be some limits. It cannot go off the rails. And for that reason, yes, we need to start with some structure. There is it is the easiest way. And when a client comes and nothing is seems to be happening, we need to come back to a place where we a trainer would consider okay this is a good start. This is a good place to start. But that place is always in my opinion the place where you have to somehow very quickly make them successful. So whatever tax task we pick, we have to make them click if you want to think that way. And now they have motivation, both of them, the dog and the owner, right? Um, but yeah, I I almost lost the whole question that you have because it's such an interesting topic in my head. >> Um, >> well, it sounds like when you're talking about teaching students of yours how to effectively teach and work with their clients and knowing when to jump in and help and knowing when to wait to let them figure it out. And something else you said a few times which resonates quite a bit with me because it's something that I often teach. The first thing that I do with each dog that I work with and this is the same thing I tell my students is the very first thing is we need to build a relationship. So you're talking about rapport and trust. How can someone build rapport and trust with their dog? And for someone who is a professional trainer, I think one of the pitfalls that many of us fall into when we're doing stay in trains and we're trying to get very quick results, we have 10 dogs and stay in train, they're going to be there or doggy boot camp, people call it different things in kennel training >> and we only have three weeks or maybe a month to work with the dog. And I've seen many trainers, including myself, make the mistake of rushing into the training because I'm trying to get those results in that short amount of time, but I haven't even built a relationship with the dog yet. >> And lacking or not building the relationship, especially if the dog has maybe fear issues or resourceuarding issues, some form of aggression that we're working with. jumping into it too soon created more conflict and ended up taking longer to work through it because we rushed that stage of building the relationship. Based on your experience, training students that you've worked with, what are some of the best ways that someone can build a relationship effectively, not just with their own dog, build that rapport, but with their client's dogs?

>> Yeah. Uh I mean this all really really good uh uh input that you have. Uh you know I I always kind of seem to take things out of context but hopefully it comes back and really start to make sense. >> Um >> well I have ADD so I bounce all over the place in my head. So what one of the problems with societies today is is just you know those are I mean it's hard even for us at this point with with chasing social media and trying to stay up to date with the latest AI update and and you're just about to get it and I mean I mean the face we are living in it's insane and our brains and our evolutionary uh um our genetic makeup is not really prepared for this. Now the dogs putting this I I think it's even harder for them. And I think we all agree that almost the the vast majority of what we would call problems are a result of a dog being living living in a city and and not living a dog life. Um when we have a um when when we somehow if you if we're able to stop and and just ground ourselves. I know it's kind of newagy like I'm talking here but but it's not like you know just getting out of walking and training in the city going around the block or in the dog park or whatever. If I just take the dog for 2 hours on a hike off somewhere in nature and you do that for a week every day and you basically will kick into some very natural primitive instincts of uh what I would call us versus them. So like let's say even if you have a dog that it's not trusting you or it's high or it's aggressive both of dogs and humans we we are social and we are you know we have back mentality. So even when two don't like each other, there are very easy ways to convince to like each other and to basically team up. And to team up, you need to team up against something else. And it's a it's a very interesting and and um you know like like you take a dog on a walk, they don't want to stay close to you. Of course, you don't force them to stay close. They stay whatever that distance is that's like okay dude you're cool there I'm cool here we pretend we we're just walking but we are not together even but then I don't know something in distance some some branch fells down or some bird flies out or something makes attraction and the go the dog goes and I go

and what just happened we just teamed up against something else. Stuff like that is very very cool to build rapport, trust, motivation, cooperation because you need to to kind of that there is many different ways. Of course, one way is to say, "No, you're going to heal and or I'm going to just throw treats this way and this way and you're going to be I'm not going to pretend that I'm not there, but you will pretend that I'm not here." And it seems like, you know, the the different scenarios. Um but there is a a true very genuine ways using evolutionary psychology and and instincts uh to create this. This is like the there is so so much studies and so many things and um but this is the first place where you want to start. if you uh in my opinion if anybody wants to build um relationship or or whatever we want to call it as I said um that there feeding a dog to me it's not and that's going to be extremely controversial and I stand by what I say feeding a dog no matter if you feed them from a dish or you feed him as he's working or whatever it is but feeding is not what builds rapport, trust, motivation and cooperation. I I give everybody something to think about because I know some a lot of people uh understand or or should I say they know that I am not the biggest fan and proponent of uh training with food. uh which is not quite the truth. Uh food can have place in training. So let's think of when we compare food versus play. And let's think of something very more more of a structural kind of not necessarily an aggression problem because that goes to a a very different conversation. We need to we need to really dissect a lot of different things before we ever start to write the prescription there. But what happens when you have a young puppy and you start training with food? And and what I mean by you, I I don't mean you. I'm I'm just talking universally. We eliminate the um the initial struggle, if you want to call it that way. And basically, um, of course I'm exaggerating, but anyone, even even people that don't have the skills, can get a dog with no training to do handful of different behaviors instantly by luring with a treat, right? Does it work? Of course, it works. At least to some extent in my opinion. But at at that stage the beginning we can at least I hope we can agree that the dog doesn't have any idea what it's really doing besides being mesmerized and chasing the food lure. Yeah. So from the person from a

side that puppy is doing a sit a stand uh attention healing and so on. But when we flip it around from in the dog's world um the puppy will say yeah I'm ch I'm chasing their lure that's all I'm doing. So I I could argue I could say could create performance but not understanding or not yet. It just it's it's on a surface level very quick. >> I compare it to somebody driving with their GPS. If they pull up their Google Maps, they move to a new town, they plug in their new work location, let's say it's 15 minutes away, and they just follow that GPS every day, it could take them a month or two to learn how to get from their house to the workplace because what are they doing when they're driving? They're listening to a podcast. They're listening to music. They're on a phone call. Perhaps they're not paying. Oh, there's my turn. Oh, there's my turn. But if we go back before we had the GPS, even before TomTom, what did you have to do? You had to go on the map, find where it was, plan it out, remember the streets, remember the location, and then you really had to pay attention while you drove. And in a matter of a day or two, you already knew how to get from point A to point B. And in my training experience, because I've done >> and that is a struggle. Sorry to interrupt, but but if you have to drive without the GPS, you're going to make a wrong turn. You're going to you're going to be like, "Oh, I could have Oh, I Oh, right. But there is a value to that. Go on." >> And so, you'll end up learning how to get from point A to point B, but it will take significantly longer. Now, I compare um as I said that to luring and then if we're training, let's say we're doing escape training. We're using some kind of pressure like leash pressure. So, I can tell the dog down and then I use leash pressure to queue the dog into the down position and then if I want enter the dog into a reward event or release the dog, that dog will tend to learn faster than the dog that I used purely reward based and I'm luring in each position. And then the dog that even learns faster is the dog that is learning through avoidance training where I tell the dog sit and I correct them into the sit position or down and I correct the dog into the down position because for that dog there's way more pressure and consequences for them being wrong. So they learn much faster. And that was a lot of the foundational training that I learned when I first started. And one of the issues that I had with it though is when someone brand new, and there might be times where that sort of training could be useful depending on the circumstances, but for someone brand new where they don't

really have good timing, they're not great at delivering the reward to increase the dog's motivation. They're not really that good at reading the dog's body language. And what they end up doing, they end up overshadowing the command with the correction. The dog's not able to avoid the correction. So now they're getting corrected constantly and that still takes them a long time because the inadequacy of the trainer. But if we look at it and we say here's a trainer that does this perfect escape training. Here's a trainer that does avoidance perfect. So we'll say leash pressure or correction type training. And here's a training that does luring perfectly. I think the one that does the uh avoidance training is going to teach the dog fastest. But which one is most invested? Which one is most motivated by the training? Which one enjoys it more? >> That's uh I I I like where your head is and I like what where your challenges as far as dog training are and it's very very cool to to actually have that conversation with you. >> I appreciate that. I'm going to I I'll trust me I'm getting to this but let me finish this uh uh the the lure comparing to to other option first and we are getting to avoidance if you want or whatever with scope I I'll get there for sure but uh so so we said like food creates performance but not quite understanding at least not when we are in the fundamental beginner stages acquisition stages the acquisition stages with food are typically the the priority is you chase their lure and it's going to look like you're doing a tons of cool things that three-year-old dogs cannot do. Uh depending on how good you are with the Lord, but even if you're not that good, you still will get the results. There is no doubt in my mind. My my core point is that luring inserts food and this is again it's going to challenge and I think it's interesting and it's good for us to challenge each other's ideas. Luring inserts food into situations where food does not necessarily belong. It distracts from the from the real interaction like like bringing bringing someone to do what they would never naturally do for food. Like let's say we're playing basketball and I don't know, my friend just runs and just shoves a slice of pizza in your hand because you you you scored. It's like dudes get the out. Um exaggeration, but why play mothers more for me? Like remember I I I I just said that with food we eliminate the initial struggle. Well I love the initial struggle. I I love all struggles but I love the initial struggles. Um dogs dogs in in uh you know like um I mean I I have said few times places but I I should say it again like I where I grew

up as a kid. Um it wasn't the best neighborhood. I was living, you know, I would go to school, but basically I'm out on the streets and instead of doing what other kids do, I hang out with the dogs. I knew all the dogs in the neighborhood. Um, I knew like intuitively I knew the the dynamics because they're very easy when you when you start to uh uh stay away from what the textbook and what Skinner and whomever like like this is very easy to understand. Okay. Yeah, that boy trying to flirt with that female and this one is a punk and he needs to be put in play and so on and so on. I I I know the dog's language is what I'm trying to say. Uh I lived in in Africa at some point. I I was you know I mean I was so crazy that I would just go into a den like let's say 10 ft tunnel where the mom has the puppies and I have no idea if she's there or not and I'm going to see the puppies, you know. But the point I want to make is that I I believe that every natural interaction between dogs, it's either negative reinforcement or punishment. It's a combination. It that's the interaction they have. There is pressure, release, conflict, and resolution. That's that's their generic genetic uh uh programming. So, uh, um, saving, you know, play for later when the dog already knows uh, um, you know, the luring behaviors. It doesn't necessarily make sense to me. Um, that's the that's what I think it's the real world. Food can never tap into that kind of stuff. And As I said that conflict and resolution this the name of the game and when we talk about I I hope I I will have an opportunity to get further to talk about games and stuff uh because it will tie to this but uh um what what is the what is the reality of luring it's using food using a food lure is basically saying I don't know if I should even say it but it's basically really saying I cannot communicate in any other way what I want you to do so I have no choice but I'm going to guide you with food because it's a quick instant it it appears there is no struggle and as I said I like the struggle Why I like the struggle? Because if I have the struggle, I this is my best opportunity to build rapport, trust, motivation and cooperation. how I come out of this struggle, how patient I am to teach what I want, how uh uh I'm able to say what I don't want without making the dog shut down or be universally suppressed, but actually understands that this is there is a rule in the game and the rules, you know, just like in any game, you break the rules. There's some consequences to that. But

uh um there is another thing about like okay we're teaching the hill, right? Everybody does, right? I I mean I've done it sometimes just because five week I mean five sorry like let's say 8 week old puppy or I don't know what the youngest is on YouTube but there's some really young puppies that are doing healing chasing food to me does not make much sense but what it really doesn't make much sense is that there is a dogs that do this healing forever and ever and ever and there is a very structured and and again I I'm very keen on all different ways of learning because they're all interesting even when I don't agree with them I make sure that I understand them so I have uh um so I can talk about it you know like it's very different when you don't understand something and you're Oh yeah, electric colors are bad. It's like, dude, you you've never you have no idea what electric does or why or or anything. So if we are teaching a dog to heal, what are we doing by the luring? We're creating the so-called muscle memory. And what is the muscle memory? Head up or head up, whichever your preference is. some prancing and staying right next to me because that's where the food comes. And then there is I mean there are quite a few different variations of how we start to reduce the food and how we win from the food and we be where it becomes an actual competition healing if you want. Now, probably it's better that I stop here and I take you back to what happens if you don't do that. Well, dogs like like every other at least mama like to look at your eyes. because you can get some information about what's up through making eye contact. This is very fundamentally important. This is building this is baked in our DNA so much that um once the dog science you know they they finally realize that they can make a lot of money because there is billions of dogs and and it does make sense to pay attention because nobody wants to give grants and pay attention to research of I don't know geese or or something. dogs are far more interesting. So early 2000s they did some studies that are studies which basically will tell you the obvious and uh anybody that wants to see any of them they're they're out on YouTube on on you know you can find them very easy um we can put links if you want but they're they're easy to find. So, one experiment that they it was very cool to do, they put three people in chairs next to each other. One has a blindfold,

one has a bucket on their head, and one has normal face, eyes open. Everybody has a treat in their fist. They let the dog in and they wanted to see who the dogs going to stop to pester and convince him that he should get food. Clear answer is the person that they could connect with. It's like dude, you have food. Give me the food. This one I cannot convince him. He is not here. Right. that makes I don't think there is a even a need for that study but okay so there is a study they did another very cool experiment not the same people I don't think but they had a the owner of a dog sitting again on a chair the dog is over there and there is a plate and something irresistible whatever the treat or food the dog likes and the dog is on a not supposed to take it. So, the owner is staring at the dog and paying attention and the dog is of course not taking the food. Then the experiment goes further. The owner closes his eyes and the dough is waiting and he's waiting and guess what? He takes the food. Why? Because eyes matter and there there is nothing to teach about eye contact. It's there. All you need to do is just acknowledge it and encourage it. And it can happen in one session. I do it in one session. every single time I have to demonstrate this. But I don't think I I hope that what I'm saying it it's so easy to understand that when we say, well, I'm doing this for the next year. I'm starting when the puppy is three months old and yeah, my back is hurting and everything and my hands are bleeding, but I'm feeling these things and the jackpots and I'm doing all this, but the dog doesn't even understand why. It's a different like the the whole concept and the the dynamics are very different. Um, now I can take this to playing and and how play to me is so much more important than food luring a young puppy. While everybody is luring and doing positions and healing, I am trying to convince my dog to bring the ball or to let go of the ball or to chase the ball or to bite the tug but not bite my fingers and to do it for much longer than they again and what happens it's quite logical and it's quite interesting there is a struggle so to make it's very different to say

hey I have this one ball and I'm going to throw it and this is the agreement that we're going to have you're going to go and get it and you're going to bring it back and I'm going to throw it again. So, we need that report, communication, trust. Um, and it's going to be a struggle. And it's going to be a big struggle cuz why would the dog just go get the ball and bring it back? I've been breeding dogs since 1989. I also was um yeah, it's probably one of the oldest Malino kennels on planet Earth that still is is uh as strong as as when we did. I worked at Guide Dogs for the Blind. They had their own breeding program of shepherds and Labradors in in San Rafale in California. So I I genuinely was very interested in in genetics and breeding and selection and so on. And so play kind of came very naturally as because any mammals are very playful at least when they're young. As they get older some lose that playfulness. the the best part I think and and this is my kind of ultimate argument about the the theory of how humans and dogs or wolves, you know, how how did it all happen way back then? And you know, they were scavengers and so on and they were hanging out and but I also think that maybe maybe there was this one kid that also was throwing a bong and the wolf or the whatever we want to call it and it was bringing it back and they came to that agreement because it's really uh it's very special that dogs and humans don't lose the playfulness until they die unless there is some pathological development or later trauma or whatever. But most other uh uh species they they kind of they're very playful in in when they're young and it kind of loses its thing. So again I I I just wanted to make uh to emphasize that play is is such a it's so baked in us and in the dogs but there is a struggle but when you come out of that struggle what do you have? You have cooperation. you're able to explain what an objective of a certain task is what we're doing. It's kind of like me teaching you how let Nate let's go play basketball. Well, here are the rules. You cannot hold and run like in football. You have to score. You have the three steps rule and so on and so on. Now the difference is that humans can instruct each other. Dogs cannot. Like we dogs we cannot. I cannot tell a dog well if you don't do that or if you do it comes from experience. is very important when you go to that struggle to teach a dog to play a game because there is what I call there just recreational just activity that you're kind of playing but there is no objective there is no goal

into that play and there is games have objective and the moment there is objective we need to have rules and the moment we have rules We always try to bend the rules and see what happens. So the puppy that I'm going to work with, I am tapping into. Okay, these are the objectives of the game. These are the consequences of breaking the rules. This is the enjoyment of playing the game. Um I mean I mean I can go on and on as far as what gets built in just as much as uh I you know for at at that age I am also building endurance and what I mean by endurance I'm not just talking about physical endurance but physical endurance and mental endurance they tie each other they go along together. you I know you sometimes mention jiujitsu and stuff like if if mental or physical endurance lacks fat things coming and everything goes downhill regardless of play teaches or builds focus and that focus is to stay basically to keep your attention attention on the same task for a long time and at the same time of course build the physical endurance. But just the idea that you can work on that little guy that they can stay focused on the same task for long period of time and enjoy it and not burned out. what does that translates to? So, if I see a dog in any workshop or any lesson that I'm going to have if when it comes down to competition stuff, I'm like, just go and play. I don't need to see your heel. I don't need I don't need to see nothing else. Just show me how many times he's going to bring the ball. Well, if he brings the ball 20 times, what what am I expecting that he's going to do for that ball? How strong of a motivator that is to convince him to do all sorts of behaviors and amazing performances. Um um we have another super important thing about play that food will never do. And this is I don't even know how to go with this cuz this is crazy uh uh interesting but it just goes deep play and not play the games cuz again I I really want to disting make difference between play is a very it's kind of like you and me playing basketball but we're just bouncing the ball and eventually we're like okay it's cool versus no I'm going to kick your ass and we're going to make some rules and we're going to have a game and we're going to see who's better and we're going to and you're not going to break the rules and if I break the rules that so on right so in in a way I see the this kind of interaction as the master key but in in also on a whole different level because games

change your energy the dogs become active. It's engaged. It's aroused in a in a controlled way. But the the I'm like, you know, you don't play like this basketball. You don't do, you know, like when you are in a game and you think you're good in the game, you are all in, right? So, it changes your energy. And when your energy changes, what happens is it changes your physiology. And what does it mean when your physiology changes? Like like what what happens? Well, your heart rate goes a little higher. Your breathing gets different. Your hor hormones get activated. your like total nervous system shifts. So when energy changes, physiology, physiology changes emotion. And this is really really special and it's there is so much science on this but there is also so much hands-on experience on this. So let me say again game will change energy energy will change physiology physiology will change emotions and and what that means is you know you you will feel different. So you have the I I don't want to go crazy with brain chemicals and body chemicals of what happens but but again you have the the dopamine the norepinephrine and um you know they they spark that initial energy and arousal. Then you have the uh epinephrine and cortisol that kind of you know translate the energy in in that physical redness of you know your body is like okay this is the game. Um then you get of course back to the dopamine and serotonin and oxyonin and just it's just a explosion of good chemicals in your brain because of energy changing physiology and physiology changing emotion. Like when you think about your brain, it's this little black box that doesn't necessarily see or feel or do anything. It just gets data from your inputs from the outside and the inside. And we always think that >> man, I'm going crazy here. >> This is great. I I enjoy I'm enjoying this conversation on play because play is a really big part of what I do as well. I do want to talk a little bit more about the luring and if there are any pitfalls that come from doing luring in the early stages as opposed to doing more play because when I get a brand new puppy I do both. I do the luring and I do lots of play. But I also notice with puppies dependent on their play style I have to adjust quite a bit to get what I want. And an example is the German Shepherd that I'm training Maverick. Really nice German Shepherd. When I had him as a puppy, he had a tendency to want the toy, but to possess it. So, he

would grab the toy and then he would want to run to his little bed and lay on it. I got the toy, I won. But, of course, I wanted him to come back and engage with me. So, first thing I tried was to once he took the toy, I ran away from him. I hid behind the couch and I'm looking at him. I'm trying to make it a game to where he wants to come back and he would. But then if he came back and I wanted to go for the toy, he might turn his head because he's coming back. He wants to engage because I'm moving away, but he doesn't want me to grab or take the toy. But because he was more possessive, if I did get a hold of the toy, he would hold on to it. But then I also was considering if I make the play too difficult, then he really won't want to come back to me. And so I tried different techniques to get him to bring the toy back. And what I ended up doing that worked really well was I pretended like I didn't want him to make me grab the toy. So the game that I played was if he makes if he comes within distance, I have to grab the toy. And when I grab the toy, he has ultimate power over me. So wherever he moved his head, I act like I could not resist. And I'm like, whoa. And I'm flying this way and I'm flying that way. And he was really able to manipulate me. And then I would let go and I'd run away like, "Oh, don't corner me. Don't get me with the toy." And he'd corner me and I'd grab it again and he'd do the same thing. And I built him up through using that motivation where he's thinking, "I'm throwing you all over this place." And then I started to show him that I really wanted him to push into the bite. But I'm wondering if there's a certain approach that you have for different play styles or is it really teaching, okay, you have to make adjustments according to the dog that you're working with and you have to not be afraid to try to make adjustments. And I don't know if that's the best way to do it. There may be better, but I ended up getting the results and we had fun doing it. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, super. That's that's a again a a good input here. >> But it could cause shaking, right? I mean, >> no, let let me let me let me just stay on what you said because it's it's brilliant really. Um, typically when we do play or try to make a game out of it as a trainer, we are very impatient. And this is typically when the second ball comes or or whatever. We we're very creative to avoid the struggle. Whatever it is, we're very creative to avoid the struggle. However, humans have that ability, that gift that there is a we cannot say there is a infinite number. There is like we can keep coming up with different games without an end.

We can constantly create new games with anything like literally with anything. And this is what I'm trying to say that it's so like it's so much instinctual. It's like a you know until pans skip and and them you know in I don't know 2000s finally brought attention to play tickling the rats and all this stuff. Nobody thought that play is actually a primary reinforcer, which it is. It's just as important primary reinforcer as food or or sex or sleep or whatever. You know, like you you still when I when I see somebody trying to play and rewarding the dog that because they bring the toy with food or the steel world trainer. Um, and anyway, it's a it's really it's kind of killing the special gift of play by trying to you you diminish the importance of it. Um, because we have this unlimited way of coming up with different games. That's what you just did. you were patient enough to say, I'm gonna take my time and I will get that dog to play and we're going to come up. Maybe it's not the game I want, but it's going to be a start. And once you have a start, then there's going to be a struggle. But once you go through the struggle and you come out on the other side, you again have cooperation, you have the focus, staying on a for a long time on a task, you the uh your dog and you understand rules and consequences. Um, you already have whatever markers or signals again, whatever your feedback system is in place that actually does make sense that it's not just uh um, you know, giving food food and then you click or you say okay and you free the dog. No, that is actually really like No, you just drop the ball so you can go and stick your nose into that hole, the golfer hole. That's not right now. And yes, it's 3 months old or whatever the age is. And yes, you don't need to be harsh. This is why we're talking about, you know, when I originally started the conversation about the conflict resolution skills. Of course, you don't blow the puppy's mind because he stuck his head in the golfer hole, but you most definitely can say that this is just out of place when we're doing this. And by the time somebody has a very nice play with a puppy and we compare that puppy with another puppy that knows now sit down and heal and stand. In the in the big scope of things as far as the understanding and the way we interact, the difference is immense. Um

then then teaching sit or hill they're very easy as I said um you know and on top of that as I said you you are working in the right emotional state and to have that emotional state it's not about what people think So training, you know, we're emotions matter and and we say that um oh I was my voice inflection and I'm very jumpy and very happy when I have to be or I'm very firm when I you know that's that's the the outside world that doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter what what we need to focus on is internally. This is where emotions really get to cook. You you are hungry or you have bad stomach or your kidneys out of whack or you didn't sleep for a long time or you had a really bad argument with your spouse and you go out to have fun. Well, guess what? Everybody that sees you will be like, "Dude, go home. Just like or or just get drunk right away because you're definitely not like and and they they're really interesting study. I mean this like neuroplasticity and and uh uh the the whole neuroscience is so advanced and it's so interesting to where even I mean there are studies that I don't know how they even make this stuff but let's say somebody goes to court for some case and it's 9:00 a.m. for the same whatever. Let's say a traffic ticket and somebody goes at 11:30 and somebody goes at 200 p.m. The judge is very very likely to be much harsher with the person at 11:30 simply because he is hungry or she is hungry and the brain says we need some energy. And where do we get the energy? Do we take it from here and use it here and then compensate here and then tomorrow how do we make up and basically there is a big conflict internal conflict that that black box now has to deal with and it's a priority that guy that's sitting there that had a ticket is not a priority. Um that there is again it's very very interesting because you can have a a face of a neutral person and depending how you feel internally. You can say that guy's angry or that guy's happy or that guy's sad. It's the same face but it's you know the saying it's actually has a lot of merit. I have a gut feeling. This not a this is not maybe maybe it was but but it's really not a joke. So uh um play taps into these things. It's kind of the bridge that shifts the dog's energy and and everything changes and basically in in a different state

you get different results if you want to think of it that way. Um you you have a one it's very easy especially today I mean it's super easy to teach a dog to do sit or down or come or hill it's much more interesting what kind of emotions gets attached to the behavior and you touch those emotions not by who you are and how you act. Of course, that has some effect, but this is not the effect that you want that you think it's critical. Like, it's far more important that that dog had a good sleep or had a good food. it doesn't have a bloody diarrhea or allergy skin when you're trying to teach him something. Why? Because that's a a big internal conflict. And that brain is really struggling with how I'm going to balance this checkbooks here. I'm going to make this work. And I have a problem. And guess what? What I'm doing at the moment, it becomes the problem. Um, yeah. I don't know. >> It makes me think of this book that I read not too long ago because I I find this stuff very fascinating as well as far as how the brain works, how we process information, and kind of funny. The book is titled Remember. I don't remember the author though, >> but it's a really good book. And she breaks down how we learn, how we forget things, why we forget things. And she also talks about when people start getting a little older, they may forget something, and then they think it's related to possible dementia, but they could have the same issue happen when they're younger, but because they're younger, they don't consider it something that could be a medical issue. And something and there's things in this book that I was able to relate back to dog training. And one of them was as far as the human mind goes, learning and retaining information. We have to have a sense of belonging. We have to have a sense of control. There's certain things that we need in order to effectively learn and retain information. And we have what she talks about in the book, working memory. So the working memory is we're getting information right away. But if we don't take that information and plug it into the I believe hippocampus, then we'll forget it. So we have to intentionally remember. And then a big part of dog training is overshadowing. At least I think it's a big part of dog training because it's one of the most common mistakes. I preach about it all the time and I still make that mistake because it's very natural for our physical movement to pair up with our verbal. And then I tell someone, let's say they're working on a command or perhaps a marker. They're trying to get the dog classically conditioned to a marker, charging the marker, engagement training, loading the

marker, whatever. So they say the marker and they give the treat to the dog at the exact same time. And I tell them, well, if you're saying yes as you're handing it to the dog, the dog is focused on the food. It's not like the dog doesn't hear yes. It's just not relevant. It's the same thing if I'm having a conversation with somebody and I take my phone out of my pocket and I set it down, but I'm focused on this conversation and we start walking around and we're chatting. Maybe it's at someone's house or a party and then I look in my pockets. I'm like, where the heck did I put my phone? Well, it's not that I'm losing my memory. It's just that I wasn't paying attention to it when I set it down. And she also talks about when we learn things through humor or we learn things through play, we tend to retain it more. And I'm not sure if this was in the book, but I do remember a study about a cat chasing a ball of yarn. >> And the author, or maybe it was a video, again, I don't remember where this came from, but it made a lot of sense to me, which was uh the person was like, "Do you think the cat was chasing the ball of yarn because they're chasing the ball of yarn?" No, that's training for when it's chasing the mouse. And I always looked at play in that sort of format. When we play, it's a form of training, but it's a fun way to train. Now, the question that I do have, sorry, I was just kind of I think you would enjoy that. >> That's a good interesting. Yeah, for sure. For sure. >> Uh, so when I'm starting with a new dog, like I said, I go I do both. So, I play more with dogs that I train than I do anything else. I love playing with dogs. It's the best part about having a dog, I think. But I also do a lot of luring. So, the steps that I always follow is I build a relationship usually through play, spending time with the dog. I love the >> uh example that you gave of going on a few hikes with the dog. There's a lot of science behind that as well. If you do that with people, too. You go on a walk with somebody, it builds a strong connection. So, I love that. >> And then I will do some basic engagement training, trying to load the marker. Then I will do some basic luring. So, I lure the dog into a sit and a down and just get them to do the basic movements. I want to make sure I can get them to do those behaviors. And then I use the luring to teach leash pressure. So, I'll lift up on the leash, the dog feels the pressure, then I lure the dog into the sit, the dog sits, I turn off the pressure, I give them the food. So, I present the problem as the pressure, but then I give the dog the solution by providing a pre-established physical

cue. Once I have the leash pressure down, because I use leash pressure primarily for a a backup plan, if the dog doesn't want to follow food, I can fall back on the lure or the leash pressure rather if I need to or if I don't have a toy. And then I also use it for what I call teachable moments. This is how I teach stays and boundaries. So I'll have a marker that predicts negative reinforcement. Usually I'll use leash pressure. So, like a dog breaks the stay, I'll go, "Uh-uh." And then I'll guide the dog back onto the stay. Once the dog's back on the stay, good dog, but no treat because I don't want them to break the stay to be placed back onto the stay to get the reward. And I do the same thing for boundaries. But once I unlock those things for my own dogs, I always go back and I do a lot of luring because I do enjoy it. And the question that I have is since you do it sounds like more with play than with luring, are there any sort of uh negative consequences that you've seen from perhaps doing too much luring? Because I'll do spins. I'll have the dog go through my legs, flip into the heel. >> Exactly. And I do it and I do it a bunch because I'm I try to do what you said earlier is to build that muscle memory, get the dog moving into those positions and understand that physical relationship between them and myself as if we're doing a dance together. And then I start throwing in commands. And then once I get a dog performing mostly off of verbal, then I will usually introduce toys in with the training. Well, well, Nate, Nate, it it's not I don't know like I I just don't want to sound as my ways are better. I I I like to think about things, you know. I like to think about things. I I'm definitely, you know, I mean I mean I'm successful at what I do and and I bring a very different twist to things and you know like when be before I answer this like when when we talk about people again they would think oh I'm just attacking and disagreeing with everybody and my way or the highway and whatever. And it's like I think there is interesting it's an interesting thing. There is sometimes there there are levels even if you want to and that's going to sound cocky too but but let's say I've heard you talking about juujitsu and martial arts are very interesting analogies uh even even if somebody has never played around with but but let's say you know two people you know they can roll and they both can be right in their approach of what what's happening on the mat. But the black belt simply sees more options than than the blue or the white belt ever will at the stage they are. They're doing you know it's not that

they're wrong or right. You just there is that's why there are levels and that's why the the black belt is like yeah I have at least five options right here and you have maybe one right um um so I I don't think training is much different and and again it's not about attack or or or something we I think if we all agree that if we if We all agree all the time like the the the dog training like the evolution of dog training just going to stall would just be plateau. Um I think it's important that we have conversation and not hide from this and and you know but to to to say with the like I'm I'm saying this because I I would say something more about the food and the lure and and so on. Um I besides trucking I I never use food. I just don't see any. It's not that I don't trust me if that's going to do better than what I do right now. I mean, if you tell me to to feed my dog snakes because of whatever reason that that's going to really change, I I you know, but I I just haven't never found a reason when I'm training and I'm comparing when I give the food or when I do something different, the food always seems to be out of place. Just as I said, like with the example with the pizza when we play basketball or or you're just about to get an ar bar and you want to market and it's like, "Oh, here is a piece of chocolate." And it's like, "Dude, just stay away." Um, I mean, again, I'm making it too too funny. It's not quite like that, right? Do you understand this? But to tell you something deeper with you know again when we talk about luring what are we talking about typically we're talking about positive reinforcement as as you said and then what you're trying to do is you're trying to inject some form of aversive control but you're and again it's not you this is it's not this is just common practice that we were very hesitant and we're hesitant because of many reasons to to understand the beauty of aversive the beauty of discomfort. So especially in today's moment in time where we have this whole pressure of force free we feel that we have to there's no other way but we have to teach everything through positive reinforcement and then what was the the uh layer it with whatever right so the the majority of trainers lean hard into positive reinforcement because it feels kind, it builds trust or whatever we want to say and and it does. However, dogs like us are wired for more than just a reward. a positive reinforcement.

We are built and when I mean we, I mean dogs and humans and and many many many other species are built for challenges also. and studying or or strictly using food for luring and reinforces misses what really could fire the dog up. Dogs like us, we we crave challenge, conflict, and resolution to the conflict. Think of any game that's very interesting out human human you know like on TV or or whatever games you do we strive we crave this challenge we have adversity is fun we are born to to seek it in some way because when you when you even when you think about on on survival level. What is more important to eat or to avoid the adversity or to overcome the adversity of whatever it is. It doesn't matter how hungry you are. If you are going to touch something and it's going to really take your arm off, no matter how hungry you are, you're not going to go to take the food. There is no question that that's kind of what I'm going with. So, so that that's kind of where negative reinforcement and and punishment come. And they aren't about like harsh or abusive. They're about just clarity and and games the way we teach are are the the primal example of it. It's not uh uh you know and there is plenty plenty plenty of research that shows that people dogs again pretty much all animals uh um crave risk for its own sake. Like it's the spice of life. It's like, you know, like you would see a dog that gets spooked by a plastic bag on a on a sidewalk and then it's like, but what if I do it this way? And they say, "Oh no." But he cannot just leave it alone. It's just it has to come back. There is this something. And this is again there there's very interesting science and it's called like u people can do some research on on sensation seeking. Um Marvin Zukerman he's one of the the big guys that came up with this a while back. Not everybody wants to do jujitsu. Not everybody wants to get smacked in the face. Some people want to do painting and roller skating. But even when they roller skate, they still search for some element of challenge, of difficulty to where they are at actual risk. That's when it gets interesting. And games can do that for you. Food can never do that for you. So what food does is to get to that level of you

know to to bring all this kind of bubble bath of good chemicals if you want for your brain. You have to do what you just mentioned earlier. You know, you have to do the healing luring, but then eventually you have to spin to the left, spin to the right, just to just to add some kind of playfulness because you know, even if it's subconsciously, that otherwise it's very mechanical that there is something that is really missing in there. Um, >> yeah, it's funny that you say that, too, because I used to tell people to make their dog work for all their food in the beginning to build food drive. And I don't say that anymore. Now, what I say if I'm teaching luring, I say have your dog play for their food. You need to make it fun because if it's boring and we're just having the dog sit and lay down. And it also makes me think about the 8515 rule. I'm not sure if that's what it's called, but when you are learning and you're growing, you need roughly 85% challenge or 85% rather success rate and 15% failure. If there's too much failure, this is where people or dogs shut down. It's too difficult and where it's too easy, as you said, they lose interest. It becomes boring quite rapidly. If you've ever played a video game with like a cheat code or back when we were younger, you had the Game Genie you would plug together on a Nintendo game. Yeah, it's fun for the first five minutes, but >> all the challenges are removed and it makes the game rather boring. I do want to ask a specific question on something like the flip finish. If we have a dog in the sit front and we want to get the dog into the heel position, when I teach that, I usually do steps. I'll start with a lure. I take a big step back. I guide the dog into the heel. I teach them a bunch of spins. And then eventually what I'm doing is basically a 180 spin. The dog's doing a 180 spin into the heel position. >> How would you teach that if you're just using a toy? Are you like luring with a ball or is there something else involved that gets the dog to understand? Okay. position into the >> heel. So, so what you what you what you said before that that was all really really cool. Uh now now to go back to the flip finish and and any other behavior >> as an example. Yeah, >> you're right. Right. Because it really is an example. I think um there is the the there is the the kind of notion of okay well we we do food and then we bring the toy so we we make it more explicit and more animated and so on. The reason this typically is done is because if you bring a toy and you don't have control of the dog, it becomes a chaos. So anything you're trying to teach, it's just going sideways. And

that's where in when I train and I go to what I called the struggle of teaching a dog to play, I'm basically teaching the dog that eventually that's going to be, you know, it's going to be your insane motivator. But there are rules how we go about it and you understand the rules and I understand the rules. So that struggle in teaching a little puppy how to bring the ball and how not to go away and how to give it back and or how to play uh what I call the possession games and you win or I win and as you said like there there has to be it cannot be one-sided. It never will be interesting. We never because we don't have the challenge. Challenge is critical, right? Um um um so by the time I would teach a flip finish, my dog is not losing its mind and becomes out of control, aroused as hell to where I cannot even stop him from whining or or salivating or bulging eyes or whatever. That's not that will never be any of my dogs. But they will be extremely highly motivated. And we have reached that level of the ability that we like the again imagine the the very serious struggle of teaching him how to play with me. Eventually the struggles get easier and easier and eventually there are no struggles. You only have to use the toy or a game when there are no struggles if you're going to use it as a reward at some point. But when you do a lot of luring and you all of a sudden say, "Okay, well now I'm going to bring the ball." Well, you're going to have some work to do, right? you're going to have there there's like okay well what I mean now the the food compartment in the brain if you want cuz it's it really it's a like you can really think of it that way because it's a you know when you do food what happens I mean Pablo there is a digestive system there is involuntary reflexes there is saliv there like there is a food related behaviors that go along And all of a sudden there is play and we're thinking because the behavior is there now we're just going to jack it up and we're going to have everything. Well, no. We just changed the whole like the brain is now out of whack. Now it's like all for let's go. There is no rules. And and that's kind of one of the reasons I believe that uh uh trainers because they don't really appreciate the value of the struggle of play in the beginning and the food comes as this instant success. you're instantly uh like you know I mean yeah but that that's kind of where it is. So, so for me this is not really a problem because this is all sorted that this is like way way back in the past. We had that struggle that's not the struggle no more. It just my value of reward is very

different but I have cooperation definitely. And are there issues though? Cuz when you started talking about bringing out the toy and you described what I've seen lots of dogs do, the trainer is using a toy as a primary reinforcer. The dog is so amped up that we're getting that vocalization. Sometimes the whining because the dog really wants it. I've seen that quite a bit with German shepherds or they'll start to bark because they want the toy. Of course, I've seen that with Malininois as well. And maybe they've been rewarded for that in the past. Or maybe the dog implemented negative reinforcement on the human. I'm going to bark at you until you give me the toy. Once you give me the toy, I'll stop barking. There you go. I did negative reinforcement. Yes. Yes. So, so let me let me let me this is a very good one and I I always talk about this because it's important thing to talk about toy again. It's that bubble bath of emotions good feeling good like let's go crazy but there are no rules there is no cooperation there is no it just goes off the roof and go sideways so but let's say the dog does something very nice in the work phase and you decide to reward it with a toy and you reward and you try to play and now the moment you try to play humans kind of predictable being. So the dog starts to be like, "Okay, we played long enough. Now the out's going to come." And they start to whine and they start to be like, "Oh, now this thing's coming." So from working and being in one mindset, the reward comes and the emotions and everything just goes in higher. But then it's kind of like this roller coaster of the anticipation of the conflict of an out for example and from the highest place now we are like ooh and now we get the little fight because we don't have good communication cooperation. We get that out and now the dog is no more even here anymore. Now he's down somewhere here. Now the handler has to act like a clown trying to bring the dog at least back up here. Then the dog gets here. It gets rewarded. It goes up here and it comes down again. And now it's so it it's really a this roller coaster of emotion. And this is very counterproductive. This is not how we would use game. The idea of game is when you have the working phase and the dog has certain emotion. If you're going to reward and if it's going to go higher, which sometimes it doesn't even need to go higher because the dog has learned to stay in a different state of mind that it's already very high, but let's say goes higher. when we go back to work. The idea of the mastery of a game is to be able to stay here and going to work again. And if you ever end up going down, play

is the thing that's going to instantly bring you back. Uh but as long as we have not gone through the struggles of sort out that again going way back into the very beginning of the conversation that conflict resolution skill if you as a trainer if I suck at that I'm going to constantly be in this roller coaster and at that point I would agree with anybody that food is a better option. I I don't know if if if I make sense on this. >> I some what I'm thinking about with the roller coaster. I get excited about this stuff, too. I think about dog training at a psychotic level. I think about it all the time. And I'm currently writing my second book on it. And the book that I'm writing right now because I wanted to be able to express all the different things that I've learned within dog training since I started back in 2012. And I feel like I had a very fortunate career so far because my first mentor was Tom Rose and love the guy. I think he's amazing. And then my next mentor was Dave Vanerin who's also really quite an exceptional trainer and then I was invited back to be an instructor at the school and so on. But anyway, so I I wanted to be able to share these experiences. So, I thought a really interesting way to do that would be to write essentially my memoirs as a dog trainer. So, the book starts in 2012 when I decided to become a trainer and then it's going to end at local time, >> but not local time, but you get what I'm saying. Current time, >> right? Uh, but anyways, I think about this stuff all the time because I really I always want to know why we're doing certain things and what it means. One of the things I tell my students that I work with is I tell them to never be the chauffeur. And if you've never heard this story before, I don't think it's based on a true story, but it has a good lesson within the story. So Einstein was going around and he was giving a bunch of presentations, hundreds of them. And he had a chauffeur with him. And one day the chauffeur noticed that Einstein was getting pretty burnt out. He was exhausted. And he says, "Hey, I can tell you need a break. How about tomorrow I will dress up like Einstein. You dress up as the chauffeur. You hang out in the crowd, have a cocktail, relax. I'll go on stage and give the presentation. I've heard you give it hundreds of times. I could do it verbatim. And Einstein liked that idea. So he said, "Great, you can give the presentation tomorrow." So the chauffeur gives the presentation. He checks all the boxes, hits every bullet point. He does it beautifully. At the very end of the presentation, somebody stands up and asks him a question that

he doesn't know the answer. And he says, "That's such a basic question. Even my chauffeur can answer it." And then Einstein stands up and answers it. And Charlie Munger, he took it a step further. He's that really wealthy billionaire. He passed away recently up there with Warren Buffett. He said there's two different types of knowledge. There's the chauffeur, the person who's heard the information and can repeat it but doesn't truly understand it. And then there's the version like the Einstein. You really know it. You study it constantly. And when you don't know something, you want to find out more about it. And so when I'm mentoring new trainers, I tell them, don't be the chauffeur. Don't say something if you don't understand what you're saying and what you're trying to teach the person because then there's going to be issues when they ask questions that you don't know the answer to and you don't have Einstein there to provide the answer for you. So, I'm always trying to think about these things and some of the stuff you brought up earlier too had me thinking with uh the black belt analogy or the jiu-jitsu analogy which I I think is really fascinating. Have you ever trained jiu-jitsu? Yeah, I I actually grew up back in Eastern Europe with with like like like a lot of it and then >> it's fun. And then I ended up going to, you know, that that's how the Brazilians finally they were trying to get me to do seminars there. And finally somebody somehow found out that I'm I I like this and they're like we we can hook you up with like so so yeah but but this is like very very very good thing that you're doing with the book because uh uh uh it's almost like I I really think that everybody should do that even if a book never comes out like I probably if I of course I have like different cornerstones in my evolution of who I am and how I got there. Um the the book was uh uh probably the first very big one because you have to you have to actually sit down and think of what you're doing and actually take away all the noise that you convince yourself that it's important and and really um you know like I I mean that was by the time the book came out I don't know it was 1998 or something the advanc book is I'm talking >> um >> I read it in 2013 >> so when when when it was in my head this was probably 19 94 man this is so long time ago it's crazy but you know this is when I was thinking about and and it is in the book talking about markers, talking about negative punishment, talking like like this is uh most people that do dog training. I'm sure they got things from places, but but like if you start tracking it

down, that's kind of a anyway like like writing a book is I highly recommend for everybody because it really uh uh grounds you and then you you learn how to articulate your thoughts and how to draw the essence of it and again leave all the noise and then see how from there can get better. And this is what happened. And hopefully uh this uh the reason I'm saying this is because I I kind of want to give you an advice on the book. As I said, that was 1994 when I had it almost generally ready to go. It was probably four or five years later when the book came out. I was at least five times ready to just scratch it all out. uh because of editors, because of where my life was and and so on. Um there was times that nobody would understand me. And even now, I still not necessarily like how the book is because it wasn't just me writing the book. I had a uh co-author, an editor. So when I was to say something, they're like, "No, your English is not good. let let's edit this >> and and it just gets edited to where it has nothing even close to what I'm trying to explain. It got so frustrating. Um and then there is always new things to where you feel like you need to just go back and so don't do what I did like just stick with it. make the book, get it out, and then do another one or do whatever else, but but don't try to just keep it there and try to make that better. It has to come out. It's very very important that it comes out. So, I'm I'm very happy that you're doing this. It's super super cool. I appreciate I've been I've been really enjoying the process too and I agree with you that I think that people should do it because it's a really uh it's a excellent way of self-reflection. It's a good exercise of self-reflection to look back and to see certain milestones or certain things that you've experienced that has shaped you into the person you currently are. And I actually started the book, the chapter one as of right now is early experiences in my life that I think shaped me into the person who I currently am outside of dog training. So chapter one basically starts like, hey, if you want to go right to dog training, go to chapter three because chapter one, I cover that. I cover some of my experiences in the military that I think shaped who I am. And some of the things that I did in my early stages of being a dog trainer was a reflection of being a drill instructor in the Marine Corps. So I was a drill instructor in the Marine Corps and then two years after that I was going to dog trainer school. I still had drill instructor mentality. The dog's going to do it and I don't care if the dog wants to or not. And that

created some issues. So being able to explain like I did that because of the things that I went through that gave me that mindset. It works with recruits, it doesn't work with dogs. And then the second chapter is my experiences and my relationship with dogs before deciding to become a dog trainer. And then the rest is the journey as a dog trainer. But to go off of what you said, that self-reflection, it really does add a lot of value and like you said, it increases your ability to think critically, to be able to uh put your thoughts into words and to be to be able to express those in a way that other people can get value from. And thinking about the analogy with the martial arts, I wanted to add to that because I think it does go back into dog training. I'm obsessed with jiu-jitsu. I love it. I've been doing it for about six years. Although I'm still a blue belt, I call myself a permablue. But when we look at it, usually when someone gets to purple belt level, like a purple belt is pretty dangerous in jiu-jitsu. If a black belt is not paying attention, a purple belt could very easily catch a black belt. But then there's recreational black belts and there's competitive black belts. >> A competitive black belt is almost always going to beat the recreational black belt. I kind of feel like I'm more like a recreational black belt dog trainer where I see you and people like Michael Ellis and Mia as competition black belt dog trainers. But the other thing where as you were saying before when you learn more you can see things that you can't see early on in your career. But I think there's also more to that. Sometimes it's not just something you don't know. It could be something that you learned early on but maybe didn't have much success with it and then later you tried it again. Your skills have improved overall the general skill sets and now suddenly you're getting great results. Like a good jiu-jitsu example is let's say playing butterfly guard if you're familiar with that butterfly guard. Anyways, some people don't like it and some people try it early on and they have a hard time being successful with it. But some of the greatest jiu-jitsu practitioners in the world dominate using butterfly guard. So, it's not that the technique's not good, it's just I'm not good enough yet as a practitioner to be able to do it effectively. >> And it's also who you are, you know, like I mean >> true, >> you know, like like that. That's man martial arts are endless endless uh analogies to dog training. You have you know like you you have different breeds selected for different things. You have different bodies like I am I'm 6 to 185 188

in weight. I have very different strategies. I know where I'm good in jiujitsu, >> you know, and and of course I need to learn other things, but I know what this long limbs can do, you know, and and so so that all all that plays a role and it's it's it's very cool. Um, you know what? I I want to like I have this um it's a very interesting pyramid of of development and and it goes for everything really. Um but if we stick with dog training, you know, like like if we have the very first level when you get excited and it's like what you would call the consumption level. You're a consumer. You're basically watching Tik Tok, YouTube in whatever comes to you. You're not even selecting what you watch. You're just watching cuz you're so excited and and you know, you're just absorbing everything. And you know, a a lot of it's just sucking up everything, right? And but but that level, you know, of consumption is kind of passive cuz you you never get to even select what you're watching and and usually what you are watching it's kind of obvious content. It's it's there is nothing. So So you can see so many videos of three month old puppies luring healing, right? Um so you are kind of the at at that very initial level and and unfortunately people stay there too long and some don't even want to go anywhere from there and that's fine but but they're spectators. They're not like players in the game. Mhm. >> Now the next level from there if you want to evolve it would be typically the curation right you're you're taking some action you're like gathering for you're like okay you're seeing this video you're seeing this video uh uh and and you are sharing them but you're actually explaining what's going on to the people that don't understand you and maybe and that's a dangerous part cuz if you are not good, you're putting your own spin, but maybe it's a wrong spin. But if you have a good sense, you're really emphasizing the things for the people that are on that consumption level, it's like, hey guys, this is what is happening. So the that curation level it's kind of a a great starting point because you know it teaches uh um the trainer how how to grow. Um, but there is a a catch to that cuz it's like the curation alone mo it's not going to make anybody stand out regardless of how much following simply because uh um you know you you're it's not your stuff, right? So uh um the next level how how was it? The next level is the obvious connection. Um, this is this is where someone actually starts to create, starts to be like, "Hey, I I'm going to put my flavor here, like I'm going to uh um make original, you know, this is this is how I teach

this or or whatever, you know." And typically though, it's by connecting the obvious ideas, the the things that everybody does, but packaging them in a very interesting way that people that are not quite there yet, they start to, oh, that's helping me. That's helping the person the the the person that brings that material to grow. but also the people that are below to grow. Um, but the the to climb higher, the trainer has to be eventually able to to think behind the the obvious, behind. And what I mean by obvious, you hopefully understand and everybody understands just like something that you've seen endless times on on the internet or on seminars or on presentations, right? Like you need to you need to find a way how to go past that. And what that is is that next level to where now you need to make some not so obvious connection to what you do to where it's like you know you say well whatever the I don't know let's say feeling I don't know and everybody's doing certain thing but you actually say well but there is you know there is one other option just for consideration, not for you know. Um and and this is where the the content that one is creating actually surprises other trainers by putting ideas in in a um a little bit of like unexpected way, right? It packages it. It's like, okay, well, it's not that obvious and it is clearly a nonobvious connection to an obvious problem. Like, everybody has that approach or at least variations of it. But how about we think of something else? And maybe maybe it's good, maybe it's not, but just the the fact that that somebody can open up to think for a nonobvious content um that that I think will set uh any dog trainer apart because it it just offers something a little bit deeper. And then it goes further because then you actually have a uh like you you can create your own I don't know system uh category whatever we want to call it and and that would be basically like the the master is kind of the the highest level um where where the trainer isn't just creating contact he or she's defining a whole different way, right? This is how they teach in the military, but it's the levels of learning based on the left and right hemisphere of the human brain. So, if you look up Bloom's cognitive taxonomy, you'll see a pyramid. In fact, I can even pull it up real quick. So, um, and people kind of put it in different ways. The way I originally learned it, you can see right here at the bottom it says remember, understand, apply, analysis, evaluate, and then create. Like you were saying, what I first learned, or at least the way that I learned it in the beginning was the bottom was knowledge. So that

satisfies the left hemisphere of the brain. So, when someone's brand new to dog training, as you said, they're watching videos, maybe they're reading books, maybe they're doing a course and they're getting the information. They're not fully understanding everything yet, but it's going into that left side of the brain, the analytical side, right? And then the next level is application. Okay, I'm going to start using these techniques. I still don't fully understand it, but I'm going to start to apply it. And then right above that would be comprehension. This would be the aha moment. you're working with a dog and then suddenly it clicks and you're like, "Oh, it totally makes sense now." Okay. And then above that would be analysis. And I think every dog trainer, professional dog trainer should be at the analysis level. Meaning they can observe someone training their dog and they can identify things that the person is doing that's either helping the training, aiding or having a negative impact on the training. And then the top level is that create or the synthesis level where you understand the subject so well that you can create your own system or you can see things that perhaps >> right so like uh I never learned from anybody the the schooling that I did the courses that I've watched I've never seen somebody do the technique of how I teach leash pressure where I apply the pressure then I lure the dog into the position because when I first learned it the way I was taught was we turn the pressure on and we wait until the dog complies and it's a mildly stressful exercise. But some dogs, because that's how I started, I remember one dog I started pressure to have the dog go into a down and I knew the rules. Okay, number one, once the pressure is turned on, it can't turn be turned off until the dog complies or else negative reinforcement doesn't work. It's one of the reasons why that seat belt analogy that we like to use. Oh, the car starts to beep, you buckle your seat belt, the beeping stops. How many cars out there does the beeping stop if you don't buckle? A good amount. It'll beep for a little bit, but then it'll just stop. So, if someone really doesn't want to buckle their seat belt, they just wait for the beeping to stop and they're fine. So, it has to continue until the subject complies. And then the moment the subject complies, we instantly have to turn it off. So, I'm pretty new into my training career and I have pressure with the dog going into the down and the dog's resisting. I'm like, "Okay, well, I just have to wait it out." 20 minutes goes by, the dog finally lays down. I release the pressure. Yay. And the dog

got it. But I was thinking to myself, this is taking way too long. And if I think about negative reinforcement as a problem. I'm presenting a problem to the dog. Well, if I'm going to present a problem to the dog, because with negative reinforcement, there's tons of wrong answers, only one right answer. Why don't I just give the dog the answer to the problem? I present the problem. Here it is. Here's the solution. And so, I tried that out. And then, of course, it worked. And it worked so well that I started using it on every dog that I worked with and started teaching it. And that's just one example of being able to understand it enough to create something new or also when I because I I'll I study trainers all the time. I constantly want to make sure I'm keeping up with techniques. And when you understand something at a deep level, like jiu-jitsu, same thing. I watch jiu-jitsu instructional videos and I can watch a technique and I can go, okay, I know exactly how to place that into my system and I can start using it right away. But that takes a while, of course, to get to that stage. And I think it's important. I'm glad you brought that up because someone who's new and starting out, there is that level of frustration in the beginning when you are trying to figure it out and you don't know what works and you don't know who to follow. Should I do alpha dominance? Is balance the way to go? Should I do pure positive? How how can someone That's actually a good question. How can someone navigate through all the noise online to find something that could be productive for their goals within dog training, whether as a professional dog trainer or as someone who just wants a well-trained pet? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I don't even know. Like I I I would agree with all of you said and so how how somebody grows is it really it is to me understanding that there are levels. >> Mhm. >> Um and and you know and having said that I don't claim that I I am at the highest level. So like like let's say I I let's I will give you some interesting examples as far as I think it will be interesting for everybody. I will give you like >> maybe two or three depending how much time we want to spend on on levels and and make people think about what I have to say and everybody can agree or disagree but they can put some thinking about it and that's kind of where what the you know the interesting thing about the training without conflict of TWWC school is that uh I I have different ideas and I open them to a challenge and then I test them. People try to like very often I get the well why why are you still competing and competing in this level? It's just

very very very hard just to stay in this level. It it's incredibly hard and unless somebody's been there, no matter how I explain it, it's very different to to really just grasp it. >> Mhm. I imagine for you there's a lot of pressure, too, because once you reach the top, people expect like, oh, Ivan's competing. He's getting >> especially when you're teaching, especially if you're loudmouthed the way I am, that there is like consequences to everything. Uh, but the reason the probably the main reason I do it is because it's super well I like competition. I'm not going to lie. Like I like competition. Uh, uh, it it drives me, but it also it's like checkpoints. It's like, okay, I'll go and I train and it's my laboratory here and and I will play around with things and let's see how it's going to hold up to everybody else's ideas. This is probably the most interesting stuff for me. Um, again, it's combination. I like competing. like you know I I always had uh but I'm so deep into learning that uh uh I need to test what I say like I um you know it's very different and this is where again martial arts is like if you if you think that you're going to do this and 20 people will go down and crumble that's fine But but let's let's have a fight, you know. Um anyway, what what I was going to say is like I'm going to give you a few different ideas just for for for the sake of levels and the sake of how we can think differently about obvious problems and probably obvious uh um uh um like like things that we do that we have just accepted that that's what it is because everybody else does it, including the the best of the best, right? So, let's take well I uh let's do the like I have five different ideas that I want to spill it out at one time and that's my problem always. Let's talk about the idea. And again, I I want to start by this is not an attack. This is just a challenge for all of us to try to think a little bit deeper and have something to walk away with and drive around and train and play and think about something that is not the obvious content. Let's go with the idea of don't name the behavior until >> it's meeting your standards, right? >> Don't name it till you love it. >> Don't name it till Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so it it's it's like this, you know, it's like a mantra. is like this blanket rule that almost nobody is trying to think about why and is it really does it really hold any ground? So the the argument and I'm sure you know you probably I don't know if you do or

know but like it is just such a common thing. So the the argument is that if we name it early, it may attach the the actual cue to a messy approximation, right? It's not going to like we're going to see something that it's not quite what we really meets our criteria. So right in luring >> dog might be crooked or the dog might not do it >> with the energy or speed that someone wants. Right. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, so in luring or or I mean in any other way of training besides the free shaping which I'm going to get to there is really no like that's my argument like there is really no need for this because we already are directing the dog towards the intended outcome. So if we're not giving the queue, the dog doesn't know what down is, but we are working on a down without using the queue. Mistakes are still guaranteed to happen. The dog still going to be sloppy. You will be some somewhat uh you know experimenting, but the trajectory is guided. It's not random. And this is important because the dog never really freezes in undesired way of performing the behavior because that's just a moment in time in the process of learning. But as you're not naming but you're whatever way you're guiding the dog to make it, it's not going to be pretty. Right? So after after all before the trainer names it there were problems there were struggles but guess what because uh once again the the tra trajectory is guided the behavior is now meeting eventually the trainer's criteria. So you went through the struggle and you reached that whatever you are like okay this is I like it now now I'm going to put a name on it. So having said all that, there should be no argument really. The the trainer doesn't need to be afraid that the dog will freeze in a freeze meaning like you know get stuck in in some ugly uh uh down or sit or hill because of that early rough stage. It's an evolution and it has happened already and even during that time where you didn't put a name, it got it met your criteria anyway and eventually you put the name. So putting the name I it's not a it's not a problem as long as we are not allowing the dog to get stall in in in that which is never really the case. Now in free shaping this is very different in free shaping the principle of of uh how did you say don't name it until >> yeah don't >> right like there there that principle is actually critical

because when you're free shaping the animal is showing you a a variety of behaviors of direto. So you cannot name something that is really way off. >> Mhm. and and and the that huge variety of spontaneous behaviors, you know, you if you if you just slap some queue on on too early, you absolutely risking attaching the word to uh uh some incomplete, sloppy >> or or flatout just wrong version of the behavior. So this is a very uh uh real danger but it's only in free shaping. If you name it as you're building the word is just part of the learning process. The queue becomes predictive of the expectation of the behavior and it's not this snap snapshot of uh some sloppy performance in moment of the learning. So those are really fully capable of updating their understanding of the queue as criteria are being raised >> so long as you're consistent and you don't reinforce the wrong execution forever, right? um in in other way like even if we go to um let's say let's say a trainer really really really screws it up and then um we have the opportunity to use that term of poison Q, right? It's like okay the dog hears a down and they just cower and start to pee and it just becomes really really ugly, right? And so the queue is poisoned. And we say, well, that's why you should do it, you know. But how do you solve that? It it's not really by changing the queue because you can change the queue many times. If you don't understand where you screw up the process, um, chances are that probably it's going to go downhill again. I I do this quite a bit with dogs that come, you know, that have problems being pet dogs, being uh uh high level competition dogs to where it's like there is that poison kill. I mean, he hears the command and it's just it's either you say out and they just >> or you say down and they're running away or just showing that, you know, just ugly ugly very ugly stuff. And yes, you can say, "Yeah, the queue is poisoned." But how do you resolve that is actually quite simple and all you need to do is just bring back some clarity of what you want. But you don't bring clarity before you have rapport, trust, motivation, and cooperation. Once you step aside from the big problem that poison you and you make that dog trust you that you're going to that you have the skills to communicate that you have the skills to uh uh uh you have the the conflict resolution skills and so on and they're willing to go along in one session this can be done and I have done it and many people do it um and all it

takes is just bring some clarity to what you want and show what consequences are or if they are. Um what about if a dog has a let's say a response to a command that is not necessarily ideal. So let's say for example someone is training for IGP or uh do they do a down in IGP from standing and heel? I don't think so. Right. They do a down in motion but not let's say AKC whatever they're trying to do down >> brings sports do positions >> right? So let's say they're trying to do the down with the dog in the heel position. And when they taught the down, they had a habit of when they lured the dog, their luring hand was closer to center. And so it created a crooked down. So they say down and the dog kind of goes down on an angle. >> So they say, "Well, all right, I've trained the dog to go down on an angle." When I say down, while the dog's in heel position, I'm just going to teach the dog plots, and I'm going to turn plots into a straight down. So, I'm gonna have my straight down for plots and my crooked down for down. Would that be an easier approach or would you say, "Well, let's fix the down command and have that straight." >> Yeah, for me it's very like super straightforward. I I would just stick with the command. And on top of that, just an even another interesting point here that it will bug me that the dog is confused and thinks about this certain queue in that way. And even if I teach him to do something else in a different with a different word, like I am the kind of trainer that I'm like, man, let's just go back and and revisit this and and resolve it cuz it's still in your head even if we never do it and it can be resolved so easy. Um, >> yeah, these are interesting. >> Would that come down to like perhaps reward placement? So, okay, maybe we'll make sure we're rewarding the dog straight so they go straight. And I brought that question up because that's advice I've given students in the past where they had that issue. They caused a crooked down and I said, "You know what? You'll keep your crooked down and let's teach the dog a plots." And we taught the dog plots and we redid the physical queue and we made it straight and everything worked out fine. >> Yeah. I don't know if >> so I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you just like a a a steely cheat sheet for for this specific thing which you know there there is not a you you know but again I I still have to emphasize the ingredients of trust corporation and so on but it's expectation so if I say down and again this is it's almost unfair because it kind of just takes away the the whole conversation too. I'm just going to resolve the problem just like that. But

you you you put the dog on a down and the moment the dog is like, "Oh, I'm going down." And you free him up and you go crazy and you do this few times and you really do this few times and the dog is like, "Dude, why am I doing this? That's so hard to get ready." And then it starts to adjust and within few times they're like no I'm ready. And so what you're doing is you're not changing how the dog to down. You're changing the expectations what happens after the down. And the dog has to just be in an advantageous position to respond to the release. And the advantageous position is to be ready. Right. So I mean but that's again that's just one example of of something that um I don't think >> right. Well I've also heard because I've asked this to a few people a few trainers to see what they would do. And I also heard the suggestion of like okay well why don't we just use a shaping box. Put the dog in the shaping box get in the heel position and have the dog go into the down there. Prevents them from going on an angle. >> Yeah. I again these are again I mean this is you know different different schools of thought I I do not like the dog to do and to do it zillion number of times with the hope that now he's just going to do it. Mhm. >> I like that the dog has the option to do a drawing right away, but because of the initial struggles, as I keep going back to, we have a way of communicating and working and making it better. Um, I don't like I don't like a lot of the I mean, probably I don't like a lot a lot of the shaping stuff. I don't like uh the idea that uh you know I don't know like in modern training we don't speak. It's kind of like oh the dog just self-discovers and we just we stay away. It's like no I I am I am there. It's it's actually to me and and to me like I I always put myself in the dog's mind and and it's weird that there is this human that doesn't want to interact but makes me interact with a treat or with a box without actually interacting with a person. For me this just not um not interesting even um um and I really don't agree that this selfdiscovery of a behavior makes it any better. What makes a behavior stick is emotions. what kind of emotions you pair. trial and error, which is feedback in both ways with the emotions and and preparing the dog for for again not not just your voice inflections and whatever, but but again, we kind of covered some of that and and you know, I like a behavior for the sake of behavior for me, it's not interesting and it's definitely definitely not more powerful and it's definitely not going to stick more and I'm ready to do this

with anybody if if somebody wants to you know this is very easy uh uh for me >> to do um I'll give you another one I mean again these are just things to think of you know at least to think of and maybe I don't know maybe you I I I the idea is not to change everybody's mind. It's just that there's other ways uh schedule of reinforcements, right? We have the >> continuous variable and so on and >> right >> ratio and and so we we all know like and and as well as in behavior psychology that that big focus on on using random the variable reinforcement schedule, right, to make behaviors resistant to extinction. So the idea is that if if we reward behavior unpredictably uh like the Las Vegas kind of event, the slot machines, right? >> Um then it's going to keep the dog hooked and and the behavior sticks around longer if the reward stops, right? I mean every like everybody's going to go yes, right? >> Well, here is the thing. I I am not convinced that that's always the key especially especially when the behaviors becomes a habit or something my dog genu genuinely loves to do. So, let me break it down. Like like in in dog training, we're supposed to start with continuous reinforcement schedule, right? That's like the acquisition stage. Everybody knows that. That means every time the dog does, he gets paid. every time. Da da da. Um, and there is no argument. It is super effective for teaching new behaviors because it's clear and it's immediate and then you know you connect the dots. But the conventional conventional wisdom is to switch quickly to variable schedule. Right. The the random schedule of reinforcement. Why? So we make the behavior more durable, more resistant. Why do we need that? Well, because yes, research for sure shows that behaviors reinforced unpredictably are harder to extinct, go extinct because of the expectation. Well, if I didn't get now, I'm going to get it later. Um, now this is where it gets interesting for me. I'll give you I'll give you an example with all of my dogs. Let's say let's say healing, you know, competition healing, like eye contact and and all of it. And I'm going back as as far as I can tell you. So I would start with continuous reinforcement. I would reward every time the dogs nails it to during the the teaching the acquisition stages. And over time though the healing becomes more than just a trick for rewards. It turns into a habit something they do automatically when we are on the training field. And more than that, it has become eventually self- reinforcing.

They not simply love the interaction. They are addicted to it because because healing and again I can pick any other behaviors but now that I said healing it has its own challenges. It's like okay well you're too far you're too whatever you're doing there. It's like you know challenges and resolutions. You're in a game. you're invested. You do not necessarily need uh um anything else. Um turning turning a behavior into a habit and tapping into that intrinsing joy. It's just another um it's just another level of understanding and interacting with the dog. Now, I'm not saying that intermittent schedule are unusful. Of course, they are. Um, I'm convinced that when it comes to to habits and self-reinforcing behaviors, it's less about the schedule and more about the connection and the the interaction at the moment. For for many years now, um, it's been just the thing you know is like trendy to focus on intermittent schedule I mean a random schedule because intermittent has part of it but there is some few different things but let's stick with the random schedule >> so kind of kind of go through the continue schedule while teaching with the intention to put the behaviors on Adam schedule one of the main reasons again is to make the behavior resistance to extinction. And in my opinion, this is not that big of a deal. That's not that big of a concern. Behaviors are hard to go extinct once they have become habits, regardless of the schedule and enforcement. And especially when they've become self-reinforced and that interaction and again challenge and resolution uh uh in the game it's it's uh brings something very different. Um, here is like I can keep going with different here is another really really really cool reason. So continuous schedule of reinforcement for example to me is super important when I do competition. Why? Because certain behaviors I don't want to make them resistant of extinction. I want to make them and maintain them explicit and some of the behaviors in a high level of competition they go to a level where it's uh um high maintenance if you want to think of it that way because if you if you kind of let it slide a little bit let's say you put it on random schedule it will resort it will kind of go back to its natural state. So, let's take a sit out a motion or a down and the dog's going to do it naturally with the speed that they want to no matter if they want to or you know uh um they will when they want to do it they will do it with the speed that they are naturally wanting to do. But there is that little more that you can ask. Now, if you keep asking more and more, there's going to be a break pond and

it's going to go downhill and that's the problem of competition. However, when you do that kind of training and you understand that they're high maintenance behaviors, you need to pay attention to them and that means they need to stay on continuous uh continuous schedule of reinforcement because of that. Does that make sense a little bit maybe? >> Yeah. So, you would keep like doing a uh down out of wait, what is it? I always call it down in motion, but you call it >> sure down out of motion. Yeah, >> that you would keep on a continuous reward schedule >> for the most part. Yeah. I mean, of course, there there are times where you mix it, but it's definitely not a random schedule of reinforcement program ever because I don't care about extinction. I I maintain a a higher than natural behavior performance and that's different. >> It makes me think of the sendout. Like when I teach a dog the sendout now I haven't competed. The only thing that I've done outside of as far as doing these routines because at the Tom Rose School, if you're familiar with that school, if you do the >> professional and master program, you have to do an IGP1 and IGP3, you have to do the tracking. And when I taught the sendouts and when I would help students with the sendouts, when I was an instructor there, I would always have a reward for the dog. Every single time we did the send out, there was something that the dog was finding until test day came. >> Because what I noticed, somebody didn't do that, if they would send the dog out and they would do a down or maybe they would do a sit because they were prepping for the AKC utility, then what happened is the dog would end up slowing down in anticipation of the down commit. >> Of course, this is the beauty. This is the beauty of competition because they're complex behaviors and they challenge you to either if you hit the jackpot of perfect performance, how do you maintain that? How is it that not a fluke and how do you compare to the rest of them that are still trying to do the same? It is absolutely a very cool thing. Now I'll bring you another really interesting one again in the benefit of continuous schedule of reinforcement like I think it's so underestimated everybody talks and takes it as yeah we just teach it but now we are in the let's say random schedule of reinforcement as we said make the behavior more resistant of to extinction >> and isn't a big part too the visual removal of the reward >> um yeah but let me let me get to this this is very interesting what I I want to try to see if I can >> um continue schedule of reinforcement there is a uh I don't know I mean I'm sure you

are familiar probably some people that are listening would not be so I I feel like I I will kind of explain it a little bit. But there is a what is called a phenomenon in extinction which is called extinction burst. And extinction burst basically comes when reinforcement for certain behavior stops. And when that reinforcement stops, the the dog kind of goes into a protest kind of state. It's like where is my money? Right? So there is frustration and and >> it seems like you know you can put that like like this happens very often in in some seminars or workshops when uh um somebody comes with a problem and then the instructor tries something and it works for a moment but then the dog realizes that the reinforcement for what typically gets reinforced stop. So they become even more explicit in that behavior. This is what we call the burst of disobedience uh the extinction burst. Now this can be bad or this can be good depending how where what you want to do with it. In in a seminar setting very often you will have a a you know the owner of the dog is like oh my problem just got worse. I'm going home. Well, if the plan of shifting the reinforcement wasn't good, yeah, it can get worse. But the phenomenon of extinction burst is that there will be a protest and eventually it's going to flatline and now we can guide to something else. Now, that's the the the that's the bad side of extinction burst. But there is a good side that is super super important. And most trainers actually good trainers do it even if they don't understand it. And this is continuous schedule of reinforcement. The reinforcement stops. The extinction burst amplifies the behavior and now the reinforcement resumes. So what just happened? We were able to raise the criteria of the behavior in whatever way we wanted to. It become amplified. It become better. If the dog was on random schedule of reinforcement, we cannot convince them by stopping reinforcement to go into extinction burst and amplify. Dude, I'm downing. Because they're like, oh, I didn't get it. Now I'll get it in the next one. Oh, I'll get it next one. Right. So it I'm not saying random schedule is bad. Of course, I cannot say that. But just as I was talking about the naming of the behaviors here we have a a a very interesting different problem that there is there is again very interesting things uh um that are well recorded in in animal learning um again in in hands-on training. Some trainers are very good at it but don't necessarily understand what's happening which can be a problem when you're teaching somebody else. >> Um so you know that that's a another very interesting one in my opinion. Um

that's brilliant. I've never heard the extinction burst being used strategically like that. But it does make sense, especially when we think about everything in the not everything, but I would say a lot of things within dog training or the dog training world, there's both sides of the coin. Like a lot of times when people think about classical conditioning, they just think about the standard, oh, the dog hears a click or the tone and the dog salivates. That's classical conditioning. But it's like, no, a dog can also be classically conditioned by a word that predicts punishment. And we're going to see a change of behavior. And the extinction burst, usually when I would see that would be, let's say you're working with a dog that is having resource guarding issues. And you decide to use, I call it the Superman technique. I don't know if it's the actual term for it, but the Superman technique. You have, >> right, you have on protective gear. You have the dog on a back tie so it can't lunge and bite your face. You give it something of value and then you grab that thing. You let it bite and you wait. And I used to do this. I don't do it as often anymore unless it's something that comes up. And some of the other techniques, maybe I'll try it, but I haven't used it in a while. But when I would use it, I would have to tell the client like, "Get ready. It's about to get way worse." Because the dog would do the extinction burst. The dog goes, "No, growling works. biting works. How come it's not working? And so the dog amps it up and then once the dog realizes that doesn't work, it goes away. But I do think that's brilliant. I never thought of using it strategically for obedience. >> But it's for everything, Nate. It's not even just obedience. You can do you can do um um you can do it with I mean you can make a dog that doesn't like to do protection and it's like oh I'm going to just let go cuz I want to let go. Um and you can ask him to to let go but then disobey and then you actually it's like oh I am somebody all of a sudden. And I mean the the this this is universal like like this is just uh so so well known in in animal learning uh raising a criteria happens by I mean one way is by withholding reinforcement until there is that protest and there is that amplification of that behavior and then you resume and then you can go again. Um, you know, regardless of which behavior it is, >> perseverance would matter with that as well though, right? Depending on the dog's level of perseverance. Those that just like, ah, forget it. I give up. >> Well, you you cannot raise the criteria in such a way if the dog doesn't care about the

reinforcement. >> Right. >> Right. So, so of course, yeah, you're right. Um, you want to get another one like the dopamine thing that everybody just talks about all the time, how big deal it is. >> Yeah. And >> well, the dopamine dopamine is a chemical used to cause behavior. It's not the actual reward. Right. >> Correct. >> Because the dopamine tells you >> pleasure chemical, right? >> How people usually confuse it as such. I do I I did want to add something or ask about the don't name it till you love it. I know we've kind of drifted away from that, but >> Sure. >> I I'm an advocate of telling people like don't name it until you can get the dog to do it with a physical cue. Now, the naming it until you love it, I would direct that more so towards any form of precision obedience. And the example that I would give using the flip finish from the sit front to the heel. When I start, as I said, I step back. Like, let's say I'm getting the dog into the left heel position. I have the food lure. I step back with my left leg. I guide the dog back. I bring them around back into the heel position. If they're straight, great. If they're not, I might take another step forward, readjust, get the dog where I want, reward. And I'll do a bunch of those while I'm also teaching the dog to spin. Then I do what I like to call power steering. I picked up that term from Forest Mickey. But I'll teach the dog. I'll have them in front of me and I'll put my hand directly between my legs at the dog's level. So my legs are providing a barrier on the left and right side of my hand. So when I start to turn, the dog can't go around my hand to try to get the reward because my legs acting as the barrier. And I'll pivot around a coin on the ground and get the dog to pivot back and forth with my left and right hand while also teaching the spin. So then I can catch the dog with my hand and easily spin them into the position. And I've noticed if I name the heel command while I'm still stepping back and bringing the dog into heel, then they end up doing the flip finish like that. It's not really a flip finish. They walk around and then they come back to the heel. But if I name it when I'm actually having the dog do the flip motion, then that becomes the behavior. But that's not always the case though because my first Malininoa Hera, she passed away years ago. But she did the flip finish, even though I taught it by stepping back when I named it, by the time she started to do it, she went, "Oh, well, the fastest way there is not doing this dumb walking motion you taught me. It's just to flip into position." And she did that instinctively from knowing where the

final position was from where the starting position. But for my clients, I always tell them if you can't get the dog to do the behavior with a physical cue and you start naming or you start saying down and you can't get them to do it and you repeat the command, then that brings up that concept of learn to relevance. >> And most people who are not professional trainers, what are they doing? Down, down, sit, off. No matter how many times you tell them, they'll say command multiple times. >> Yeah, I I get what you're saying, >> right? So like if they start saying a lot now the dog's hearing down 10 times but it's not relevant to them. So by the time they actually can get the dog to do it with the physical cue they're having to get past that. So learn learning the relevance happens if again the the trajectory is not guided if if you kind of freeze it in certain place right and and uh like to to to go back to what I was saying is that even when you're not naming it it's going to go wrong. >> Yes. And and when you are good, you will guide it and it's going to move into the whatever your expectation is. >> Uh it never stops in that snapshot of sloppy behavior because you will take it there. If you cannot take it there, naming it or not naming it, it's not going to be good. But assuming that you will have problems, which everybody will have problems along the way without naming, but they will come out successful. The dog never says, "Oh, I'm just going to do it in that very shitty way that I did it few times during one stage." >> It doesn't go that way. So therefore my argument is there is absolutely no reason to fear to have the name and in fact when you have the queue it starts to give an actual it's kind of you know like it's your uh I don't want to get too crazy with you know it's it's like your green light it's your discriminative stimulus it's like okay it's the start now we start that behavior which actually helps the dog instead of just watching him do things. It kind of tells him, hey, we're going to start this thing. And yes, it's not perfect, but we are molding it and we're getting there. >> Um um again, it's a like a really important not to name it. Think of think of uh um any behavior that you want to free shape. There is a a a huge repertoire of behaviors, right? So maybe maybe the dog is pulling something or it's bouncing up or it's barking or it's spinning but you want it to sit. You cannot be casual about this in free shaping that don't name it. This is really critical because again uh um if you put a queue too early when the dog is pulling on something when you ask them to sit it's very difficult to get out of that

but it's a very different uh uh uh the whole learning experience is structured very very different >> right and that's that like successful approximation right so if you're trying to get a dog to do something through free shaping. Often we're rewarding steps towards them finally doing that picture. So I think yeah that makes perfect sense because if we name >> yeah you cannot reward something that's going to derail it. Right. >> Right. >> So you have to keep going into it and finally say well this is the behavior where we're going. Uh but but uh uh in every other approach to training, you you you're absolutely safe and and I always will argue that you it actually is in your benefit that you're saying, "Hey, this is the behavior that we're getting. You may not know it right now, but that's how it's going to go." Um on top of that, let's let's look at it in a interesting way. Let's say um like typically for this I would line up bunch of people and usually something aversive always gets the point because it's a um so let's say yeah I'm just trying to to make it so it's for people that listen can make sense but I I think that's going to be complicated. Um, what I what I'm trying to say is that the behavior the dog's going to like if you say sit, the dog doesn't get it because there is five more steps being you're going to now approach him with the food. Then the food's going to go up. That's step two. Step three, four, finally you're going to lean down and eventually you're going to get the sit. So the the dog will backtrack and it will start with okay well this is the when I sit when the food really pushes me to sit. But then if the motivation is strong enough there they will be okay how can I predict sooner because I have motivation to get my reward better. It's like oh he's bringing the head. If he's bringing the hand, that means he's going to do that. So, I'm not going to wait for that. I'm just going to go here now. Okay, that's checked. What's next? Can I predict it even sooner? Well, he says sit. Then he does that. Then he does that. And all of a sudden, he's Oh, he says sit. Boom. That's going to come and that's going to come. I'm not going to wait for it. I'm just going to do it and collect the money. So what happens now is we are allowing the dog instead of us deciding when the dog is ready. We are allowing the dog everything is there for the dog and it's a matter of repetition and some consistency for the dog to pick up on the final queue. Mhm. >> And this can happen with certain dog in five reps. In certain dogs can find in three reps in certain dogs can find happen in 15 reps or 35 reps. But it's up to the dog to pick up

what comes next and can I predict sooner. So the queue not being there as the end result. I also again can argue that it's a disadvantage because an intelligent dog is like well you don't decide I'm I'm ready but it's not there. I I agree with what you're saying and I'd like to add to it a little bit. Um, if the dog I think a good way to simplify it is instead of saying don't name it till you love it, name it when you can get the dog to do it. So if I'm starting a dog in the early stages, let's say go back to the heel or let's do something simple like the down. Okay, when I first say down, I just have to make sure I can get the dog to go into the down. If I can get the dog to go into the down, because I like to look at commands as questions. I'm asking the dog a question. I'm saying, "Hey, do you know what to do when I say down?" The dog looks at me and goes, "No, I'm not quite sure what to do when you say down." And then I provide some sort of cue, like a lure to get the dog to go into the down. And then we reward the dog. And just like you said, once the dog realizes the first signal that represents them possibly getting a reward, they're going to try to get to that position as quickly as possible to get access to the reward. I think where there could be an issue, which this wouldn't happen in the beginning because the dog wouldn't be at this point based on the process of learning, would be if I'm trying to get a dog to like, let's say, for example, I already have the dog doing the behavior. Because when we first start, I have to ask the question down a bunch of times and give the dog the answer before I say down. And the dog goes, I know the answer. And they just do it. So, if I'm doing something more complicated like let's say the flip finish and I do teach the dog the heel by saying heel and stepping back and bringing the dog into the heel and I do that a bunch of times. Then I say heal and I don't provide the physical cue and the dog does the movement. So the dog goes I know what to do and they do it very quickly but I go ah I want the dog to do a flip finish. So now if I say heal and I try to pause, I try to give that separation from the verbal command and the physical cue so I don't overshadow. The dog's already off. Off they go. But that situation wouldn't even arise if I started the beginning by saying heal and I go through it each time and we evolve together. I think this is what you're saying. To the point now when I say heal, we've learned it together. We've worked through the sequence together multiple times. The only difference is I added the word before showing the dog the process, but

the learning process is still pretty much identical. And I think the only issue with clients, pet trainers, is repeating the command and developing learned irrelevance. Did I kind of hit that right? I tried to say it as clearly as possible. >> Let's say you're trying to make the dog down and you're luring and it's just very ugly, right? And just not happening to the point that you have to restart a bunch of times. because you have set at some point down beforehand. That doesn't that it's really irrelevant because the dog is just not there yet. The dog is stuck in that struggle that you have and you're going to have that struggle regardless if there is a command or not. You will have that struggle and you will come out of that struggle one way or another if you're good. So if you're getting coming out of it now the dog is like well what's next? Oh there is that command that's coming and and that command or Q or whatever we want to call it. It doesn't it absolutely will not affect it. It only affects I mean this is such just something to again that's what I like about conversations like this and and because they kind of stimulate us to to think >> to think >> and and and you know when you sit on it a little bit it gets interesting and that's what what's about I think. >> Yeah. And you're still even and as you said before, even if you do wait till you love it and then you name it, there's still going to be times where the dog makes mistakes and you have to be able to adjust in that moment. You know, it's like if I'm working on a recall, the way that I present the recall is I do like a little bow presentation. I bow to the dog. I guide them into a sit front and then I'll reward them. And I try to keep the reward close because I like them to be close. Like I prefer the IGP sit front instead of the contact sit front. I like the dog to be as close as possible without slamming into me. >> Yes. >> And so then when I start to remove or fade out the physical cue, instead of saying come and doing that bowing presentation, I'll have my hands down as if I'm presenting the way that I would if I was to compete, I tell the dog come. And then I'm watching the dog as they come in. And then the moment I notice the dog veers off a little bit, like, uhoh, the dog's going to be crooked. I'm gonna have to jump in and help. Yeah. So, even though I waited for the dog to understand the straight sit front position, I still have to adjust and help the dog if they're going to give me an answer that's incorrect from what I want. They're telling me three and I want four. >> Yes. And even even my best dog, I bring him out right now to do training. He

will mess up a command. He will not I mean, he can totally blow it up or he can just doesn't meet the criteria. But this is you know that's the maintenance. This is you know that there's nothing to be afraid of. Um it's just a matter of again I think uh just understanding and the more we understand it the better we we again there is like some some things that we just think that this is how it goes which again like the the the whole you know the dopamine thing as you said it's you know I I think now most people really understand that it's not the leisure chemical it's not about pleasure it's about prediction Right. It's really it's about prediction. The the the uh I'm going to talk the dopamine like it's a person or something. But but what what the dopamine likes it's it's the surprise. It's the reward prediction error. It's like whoa. What did I just get? This is this is when it feels amazing and this is that dopamine spike. But there is a a very interesting paradox that nobody either trainers don't know or or they're just so stubborn not accepting. But but this is just plenty of research on this. Uh um you know that there is an actual paradox that as much as the dog uh um the the the dopamine likes the surprise. Oh wow. Well, I wasn't expecting that. But it also hates being wrong twice. So it likes to be surprised. It spikes, but it doesn't like to be surprised twice. It hates that. So what the dopamine does is it kind of immediately starts to adjust to to the prediction that we are cooking for it. And what what was like you can think of it like this like what was thrilling yesterday becomes a routine today. In other words, the dopamine extinguishes its own pleasure. And that's why training that relies only on on whatever rewards and dopamine hits uh runs into a wall because um the trainer has to try to to come up with something bigger or if it's food tastier or whatever to get the same effect. But it's not uh uh it doesn't work that way. the the real engine of of learning, teaching and stuff. It's not the the dopamine itself. It's a it's a variation. It's a trial and error that uh um that conflict and resolution. That's the surprise stuff. That's why uh games are so powerful because they are challenging. They never necessarily repeat. Exactly. games keeps uh creating fresh discovery moments and and and and that's what happens. So uh um you know like like we we have a right now my my wife is we're getting ready to go that's why we kind of had to rush to do the podcast now because we're getting ready to go to Spain for a world championship. The Dough is 4 and a half years old. she's been training the dog for my

puppy. The dog knows, okay, I'm going to get the ball or uh in somebody else's cases, I'm going to get the treat or maybe it's cheese, maybe it's whatever. But but it's all there is no dopamine spikes in everyday training. They're not that uh uh common unless you create a game and there is challenges and there is supply surprises and and you know uh kind of like what you mentioned earlier way earlier of of how game cannot have a certain outcome predictive either either or right so what we would do is I would take something very different as uh reward for her to see if there's going to be that dopamine spike. But then what I also want to know is can I also control the dog when they are up there? And my answer is yes. So just because it was a phenomenal training session, that would be a big mistake if you understand again how the dopamine works and how it doesn't like to be surprised bunch of times and then it's going to so I was able to create the dopamine spike. I was able to control the dog under that. Now we put that away and she will get that toy one more time and nothing until then right before the the the competition. And that's really the that that's uh uh you know when you understand the the nature of of that chemical and how it works cuz again like almost everybody understands now that it's not a pleasure it's about um you know a surprise it's a reward prediction error but but you do it few times it adjusts to the prediction. there is no spike no more. It's over. So you you can talk and imagine that that this is happening but that's not just not the case no more. Um >> when there is the spike you said can the question was can you control the dog? The answer was yes. When you do have that spike and the dog is amped up or there is more energy and you can control him but what about someone who's new less experienced? Are there certain strategies that could help someone who's early in the game of dog training when the dog is fully loaded? Tom Rose would relate this to a steam engine? Like, yes, we want to use loading for a dog to do certain behaviors to get the amount of energy that we want, but if we overload the dog, we blow the steam engine and we don't get the results. Is there some way you look at maintaining that balance to get it at the peak that you need to get the performance you want while still maintaining the control? because I've struggled with that on occasions when using toys. You know, the dog gets too excited, they start barking, it's like, man, I can't control this dog right now. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's kind of I think we may we we went over this a little bit. Um um this is all done

when we first introduce games and we go to the struggle of explaining the rules, explaining the objectives, creating the motivation, convincing the dog that they're good. um getting all these uh good chemicals in the brain, putting good emotional states, but it's a very uh special event that it it this is where that's resolved while everybody else is doing, you know, sit down stand. Um we focus on this and you don't you can you can still do that. You can still a a one trainer can still use food, but they have to understand that if they going to use a toy eventually, especially if it's going to be an actual game and again game means something that has an objective. These are these are the rules of the game. Then you it will be very steely and and irresponsible even because you will just clash immediately. If you decide one day, well, it's time for us to switch to toys. the dog doesn't understand how to cooperate and how to uh uh have the challenge and the resolution and that conflict of of that interaction in a productive way. So all of a sudden you end up exactly in the worst case scenario and and then it goes again it goes pretty bad because it's like okay well now we have to stop it we have to tone it down and if we cannot tone it down well we have to we can of course we are humans but then the spark is gone or some hesitation starts to pop up um then we say well maybe we use a different toy we don't play in this Okay. Or we move stay with food because uh um everything is more reliable and consistent. Well, it's not there but it's here. But all these are problems simply because we like like let and I'm sure that's a analogy that I'm going to give right now. But let's say, you know, all these people that win the the lotto, all of a sudden they're multi-millionaires, right? And then there is all this uh YouTube things where they from super rich very quickly go downhill and and totally broke, right? Simply because they have no clue what to do with money. and and it's not one case, they're like over and over and over and they're very interesting stories. Um, and that's what happens when you don't have the education and you don't understand what you do, what you can do with money and all of a sudden you're given millions and millions of dollars. very quickly it just goes out the door and you are in a very bad shape on top of everything else mentally and and quite a few of them end up either in a mental or or suicidal or whatever you know um so so that that's kind of what I'm saying uh it's they're important stages and even again even if somebody decides to do full training and the dog is now old enough, whatever

that means, and knows all the behaviors, and we're like, "Okay, now we're going to up it up a notch. We're going to bring the toy." It will be a bad idea, just as I said, to just all of a sudden say, "Hey, I got a ball on a rope." It's not going to go. It's going to only create uh um you know, fireworks and and frustration. Um but what we can do is we can continue with the food training and on a side we can teach actual play with objectives, rules, consequences, cooperation, uh uh conflict resolution skills and so on. And once all that is in place then then it comes in >> and those are your like your prerequisites for using toys within play% >> right do you also like because I'll hear trainers and I've even said this if we're going to use play we want to make sure the dog brings the toy back to us the dog has some level of impulse control and the dog will release the item when we ask them to and something you were saying earlier where the dog will get excited, but then it'll drop in anticipation of having to release the reward. Would you say the way that the training was conducted created in a sense a form of anxiety for the dog, the anxiety of losing the toy and ending the play? So instead of being hooked in the moment of playing the game, the dog is focused on the moment in which the game's going to end. >> Yeah, you got you got it. Yeah. again the like the the trainers hate the struggles instead of appreciating the struggles >> those early struggles you know like when when I'm teaching a dog to to play if somebody's watching it's like man I I will just lose my mind here um but again you are showing who you are you're actually showing are you gonna lose you're cool. Are you going to just explode? Are you going to play fake? Are you going to give up? Like just as much as you're teaching the dog, the dog is looking at you and watching you, how you act, and who you are. And when you create that good rapport, then you get the trust, then you have the healthy motivation, then you got the cooperation. But it's not the easy way. Again, it's like, "Hey, I have a ball. Let go." He's like, "No, I'm not letting go." "Well, I have another one." "Okay, I'm letting go." Well, that's a negotiations. That's that's not a you're not struggling, right? It's it's almost as as instant fix, if you want to call it, as if you start to do sits and downs for food. It's it's you know you are avoiding a struggle that you would love to have and you have to master it because when you know how to deal in that moments and your dog sees how you deal in those moments this is a different level. If there's one thing that someone

watching this who is either early in their career of becoming a professional dog trainer or they're learning to be a professional dog trainer, what piece of advice could you give to them from somebody who has over four decades of training, multiple trophies, an incredibly successful career, which is arguably one of the best schools in the world to become a professional dog trainer, training without conflict. What advice would you give that new student of dog training? Yeah, you you have to stay curious. You have to master the skill of how you go about struggles because they are special. They're good things to have. Um, and you have to dream. You have to dream. Like you, you know, like if I, if I was to say, well, I will never be a world champion. I will put everything I have today that I will not be a world champion. Uh you you have to dream and sometimes to to convince yourself you have to be so bold that actually you said it out loud that everybody knows it and zips you on it. Um not everybody wants to be and not everybody can be but but you hopefully you when you guys listen you get my point. you you you cannot say oh I'm doing this for fun or I'm like like you have to start with some level of confidence but it cannot be uh uh baseless confidence you have to stay curious and probably the most important advice that I will give everybody is you have intuition and that intuition is really really really valuable and we all do We if we stop for a moment we know what is right and we know what is wrong. um um just this space and dynamics of society um including again well this is the norm everybody does it or everybody whatever it's like use your intuition because you can uh um accomplish far more trusting in yourself than just uh um staying on YouTube or Tik Tok or or or things like that. That's that's like uh a good takeaway I would say. >> And clear communication is really what dogs need most and you modeled that today. Where can people continue learning from you? >> Um yeah, I mean if you you know sometimes people think the the school is a little bit pricey which it is. Uh but again I believe that I will bring something I will bring you that nonobvious content. I will I will challenge your mind regardless if you're starting training regardless if you are already a very seasoned trainer. I will make you think and I will change uh uh you for a better um training without conflict is the school shamala um you know puppies and and sometimes we do training and workshops and stuff but but most of the times um training withoutconflict.com

um that's that's the the best way and of course all the social media places um yeah >> and as always we'll will be sure to put all those links in the description. So, if you are watching this, just go down, you'll see the links. And that's it, everybody. Stay patient, stay clear, and keep showing up for your dog. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time. >> Thanks, Nate.