에피소드 21 마이클 엘리스와 함께하는 가르침의 기술 제2부 - DTP

You can't overemphasize the role of consistency in dog training. You can have a less evolved program and be consistent and do better than somebody that's thoughtful and is choosing to use more evolved programs, but not sticking to one idea. Right. And the different types of training that don't conflict with each other, they're just slightly different. And there are others where you're going to cause your dog lots of stress and confusion. The dog's like, hey, I figured this out. And you're coming at this completely differently. So, yeah, I think there are lots of pitfalls there. And I kind of don't envy a beginning person. I'm busy a lot, so I don't get out on the Internet and watch a lot of other content. I have lots of trainer friends that draw my attention to specific things that are good and worth paying attention to, which I'm internally grateful for because I'm not filtering through all that stuff by any stretch of imagination now. And so somebody will draw my attention to something and I'll go check it out. But for a beginner, where do you start? And that's really a problem. Yeah. Can I just before we move on, I just wanted to give a quick shout out to someone who if you don't know him, which you might, I definitely need to get you guys linked up because his name is Sean Thompson and he runs Top Dog. It's a board and train facility here in Gilbert, Arizona. And he's a really, really fantastic like fight sport competitor, but he's also an amazing just trainer in general. I had the real honor of just working with him for a few months when I had first moved here. And one thing, I mean, not only did he love you guys with Learburg, he was actually one of the kennels I was talking about that. It was mandatory. Yeah. Well, it wasn't so much mandatory. Well, he's also like has this crazy, like really nice, just energy kind of laid back guy to him. And so I wouldn't say it was like mandatory. You must X, Y, Z. But it was like, hey, listen, if you have an hour of your time, I'll I'll leave you on the clock and pay you sit down and watch this Learburg video. And and he would pay his trainers to go to seminars and still get paid for that day. He's amazing. So the reason why I bring him up is because he maybe you've talked about it before, but but he was talking about exactly that. Don't jump from program to program to program. Make sure that you stick to one and make sure you do your due diligence to find a good one and especially a good one for your dog. And there's there's those different levels of filters you have to kind of sift through. But pick one, stick to it, get good at it.

Then we'll see what's happening after the fact. So Sean Thompson, I really want to give him his shout out and I'm going to link you guys up. Do. Yeah. And the name sounds familiar. So there's a possibility we've run into each other at some point. He's like, it's me, Sean. It's me. Yeah. But no, it's absolutely true. And like I encourage trainers to go to seminars, expose yourself to all that stuff, but don't change your training until you've filtered it. Right. Right. People that I trained with go to that seminar, but don't take your dog. Yeah. Right. Take your dog. You're going to decide, you know what? I'm going to jump up and I'm going to I'm going to do it. Right. Process it. Right. Watch it. Right. Pay attention. Bring it back. Filter it. Think about it and see where it fits into what you're doing now before you just make a whole change because it seems like a good idea or it seems logical. And they are. A lot of the information is good information. If you're on a certain path, it's the right thing. Right. But if you toss anything out every time, it causes you all kinds of. Yeah. A lot of things that I that I tell a lot of my clients, because it's like my generations on YouTube all the time. And I'm always getting that that, you know, the client was like, I watch this video, this video, that video. And I always tell them, I say, you know, the things on the on YouTube are not wrong. They're just incomplete. And there tends to be just this idea of like you're getting snippets. But the things that they're not taking into consideration are the other dimensions of dog training. They're not taking into consideration your dog's genetics. They're not taking into consideration, you know, the your environment. They're not taking into consideration all these things. And so that's something I kind of want to dive into. And I actually I do kind of want to share a little bit, get your opinion on this, Michael. And then we'll go back to the three, the different dimensions of dog training that we have to look at as dog trainers. But so one one of my passion projects I've been working on with one of my other who my clients, who is an actual she's a child researcher. And what she did is she helped come up with a child research quizzes, profiles to help kids understand their best learning abilities and techniques. Right. And so she's created a website. It's called Thrively dot com. And pretty much kids from, you know, kids that are on the spectrum or kids that have special needs or even just kids in general, ADD, ADHD, who, you know, may have certain different learning, not learning, just learning difficulties.

Right. But it's able to take question, questions, ideas or questions, scenarios. And it creates a learning profile for these kids to help them kind of find a curriculum that might fit them. And so for the last two years, I've been working on this with them. However, there's always this fear that I have is like, would this be a useful tool or could this be a detrimental tool if it's not if it's not intelligent enough? Right. And this is always my question. So what would be your advice? So so if I think about it like I think about it from a dog perspective, like you mentioned edicts in passing. And so let's say if we're talking about people that are on the spectrum, obviously, that's a genetic thing. It's it is. And I think the the. Value of those profiles and things like that, gathering that kind of information is it gives you a direction to go and helps you understand what problems you might be encountering. What you want to avoid with any of that stuff is making it a self-fulfilling prophecy like that. This is what this person or for our case, this dog is. Just because of their genetics or just because of that evaluate their their profile, that they can't they can't move on that, that that defines them. And then it can affect how a trainer looks at them. They've already made a vision. Right. Right. And and genetics is a huge part. Development is a huge part of their hand in hand. They're inseparable. You don't know which and how much is that. But it's there like there's for certain it's a giant deal. But we have to be careful not to let it pigeonhole dogs and potential. And and just because we decided like a classic example that I use all the time is that many German shepherds are super possessive of their stuff. Like they like their stuff. Right. So working German shepherds love to have their stuff and they like to. Yeah. Yeah. Working German shepherd says, oh, he's possessive. He won't bring his toys back. I'm like, oh, shock. Yeah. Yeah. So no surprising is that. And so somebody gets a German shepherd puppy and they are already decided that that's the case. So instead of looking at the animal in front of them and making adjustments, they've already made it like, oh, well, that's what it's going to be. Right. Kind of thing. And I think when you do profiles like that, then you recognize that's a snapshot. Right. And give you information that you can use. Just don't get too tied to the fact that that's what that creature is. Right. And that's and that was always my thinking is to kind of just help create a direction, not to not to predestine this dog to be a certain way.

You know, exactly. As long as you do it that way and you keep reminding yourself like. Yeah. Then. Yeah, I think it's like like a very like a very, you know, like everyone's done like a personality test or some, you know, the ENF. Jay Myers-Briggs, Myers-Briggs, like that. But there are some there are some personality tests out there that actually just say you could be doing this, this, this, this and this. Jay Myers-Briggs, Myers-Briggs, and they're just kind of they just represent they just explain how you could be feeling or processing something based on your genetics, based on your upbringing, based on this, based on that. Jay Myers-Briggs, Myers-Briggs, and it gives you insight to know, oh, I'm not crazy. This is the thing. Right. And so with people with dogs that I want it to provide that type of help where it's where it's like, oh, my dog's not psycho. Jay Myers-Briggs, he's just a six month old, blah, blah, blah. But it's something it's something that someone's able to do on their own. Right. So that if they are going to go on YouTube or they are going to look for a trainer or they are going to go and seek out professionals that at least they have an intelligent start. Right. Jay Myers-Briggs, Myers-Briggs, and it's incredibly useful, I think, for the layperson. Honestly, I think I'd be like to give them a direction to go and a way of thinking about things and then maybe not blaming the dog for certain types of things as well. Jay Myers-Briggs, Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- You know, for me, that's, that's, you see lots of people selecting dogs because they, they have an idea about the breed. Jay Myers- Oh, I wanted to, I always wanted a whatever it was going to be. Right. And then they get a dog. Jay Myers-Briggs, with a certain genetic package. And then they're upset. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- That that, right. Right. And so anything like that, that gave them an idea to say like, hey, that's natural behavior for this dog. No, it's not natural behavior for the King Cavalier. Jay Myers- Yeah, you're right. Jay Myers- It definitely is natural behavior for this. This is wired in. And so all that would be, I think, incredibly potentially complicated. Jay Myers- Very complicated. It's very complicated. I mean, I'm on, I'm two years into it. I mean, all we have are maps, you know, maps. Jay Myers- So far. Well, I guess while I have you on, would you be willing to consult with me and just let me ask you questions and bounce some stuff off? I'd really appreciate that, Michael. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- You got it now. So I can't.

Jay Myers- Sucker. Jay Myers- You heard it here first, people. Michael is helping me out. All right, cool. Thank you so much. I'm so glad we brought that up. Okay. So going back to this other topic, we're going to cut this and this will be its own thing. Jay Myers- So different dimensionalities in dog training, right? There was many, many years that people would just blame the dog. It's the dog, right? It's the dog's genetics or he's bad that he bit. And right. And then now with Tyler, we talked about like when Caesar came on the scene, it was now it's the owner's fault. You're being this, you're being that. And so there was a lot of focus on the owner. Jay Myers- And then what we see now in modern days is we always see, okay, yes, we see this paradigm. It's the dogs and it's the owners. And then there are these behaviors that are required from both in order to make the relationship work. Right. And so what me and Mariano have called this over the years is just the three dimensions of dog training, right? There could definitely be four or five or six or seven. Right. And maybe you can help enlighten us with it. Jay Myers- But, but, but I guess I kind of want to just riff on this a little bit. Are there more dimensions that you can, that you can enlighten us with? Jay Myers- I think you're, you're, you're definitely talking about the big ones, right? So there's the dog and their genetics, their environment. And you could talk about stuff that's outside the handler. You could talk about early environment. Jay Myers- Yeah, true. True, true, true, true. Yeah. Jay Myers- A developmental environment is very different than the environment the dog's living in as an adult. You could talk about the handler and their issues, the owner and their issues in that sense. Jay Myers- Their early development also. Jay Myers- Their early development. Jay Myers- I never had a dog before. Jay Myers- What do they say? It all goes back to childhood, right? Any good therapist and whatever the problem is, we can trace it back and find where it started, right? Jay Myers- It's true. Yes, right. Jay Myers- And so, and I think as, as trainers, we preach foundation so much, right? That, that I think we, we, we have to avoid is two things that are connected to these, these paradigms. One is that thinking that all problems are fixable, right? Jay Myers- They're not. Jay Myers- That we can't talk into something that it isn't at a certain point. And to think that it's all the owner's fault either, right? Neither of those things. And so,

Jay Myers- We preach so much about the early development and I'm obsessed with it. I talk to people about it all the time and I'm like intervene as early as possible. All these kinds of things are so important. Jay Myers- Just because of that, the, the further you go along in that process, the more rigid everyone gets, right? The people get the more rigid the dogs get and the harder it is to make large changes in their environment. And so, I mean, I think those, those. Jay Myers- The world that you're talking about are all intertwined and there's no blaming any one piece of it because you couldn't know anyway. Jay Myers- It's like saying how much of who you are is genetics versus environment. Jay Myers- Right. You can't know. There's no, there's no exact percentage. Jay Myers- Down to the point, the point of what happened while you were in the womb. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- Like how much stress was your mom under while you were developing. Jay Myers- Right. Jay Myers- Now it's going to affect your, your, the genetic outcomes. Jay Myers- And so at some point we like to go down the rabbit hole with these things. Jay Myers- Right. Jay Myers- Right. Jay Myers- But I don't, I think the overarching idea is not to blame the dog, not to blame the owner, but to find the best possible solution or the best possible way forward through that. Jay Myers- And except that there will be things, especially when you get into behavior mod and stuff like that, there'll be things you're not fixing. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- You, you may make them better. Jay Myers- You may manageable. Jay Myers- The strength. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- Manageable, manageable, manageable where this dog can have a functional life. Jay Myers- Mm-hmm . Jay Myers- And the other thing is that people tend to think of it as such a failure if they don't work with a given dog, right? Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- The rescue kind of analogies and things like that. Jay Myers- People say, well, like the dog's like my kid, like I can't get rid, I wouldn't get rid of my kid. Jay Myers- I'm like, no, no, no, the dog's like your ex-girlfriend. Jay Myers- You guys are weird. Jay Myers- You're into each other at the start and you grew apart. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- You've realized you weren't compatible. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- And like what's a perfect dog for one person is not a perfect dog for somebody else. Jay Myers- 100%. Jay Myers- And at some point, we as dog trainers are moderators for this whole- Jay Myers- I have to say that. Jay Myers- Yeah.

Jay Myers- I always tell people we're relationship counselors for dogs and they're humans. Jay Myers- Oh yeah. Jay Myers- And there's a point where you're like, you guys are just an awful match. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- You came to marry and you guys are a terrible match and this dog will be somebody else's dream dog and you're having issues with it and stop trying to turn it into something that it's not. Jay Myers- Right. Jay Myers- And all that kind of thing is an acceptance of the dog for its dogness, whatever that is for that given dog too. Jay Myers- Right. Jay Myers- And there's a point where if somebody comes and says, well, I don't want my dog doing this, this, and this, and this, boy, that's, that's, that's the dog's, that essence of this dog, why would, would you want that? Jay Myers- That's the dog's nature. Jay Myers- Sometimes, yeah, yeah. Jay Myers- Can't change his nature. Jay Myers- You can't change nature. Jay Myers- You know, what's funny is whenever I have to have a conversation like that, the, the way in my experience to really get people on board and, and understand and feel empathetic toward the dog as opposed to feel like their back is up because they're being attacked by me is I try to look at it from the dog's perspective. Jay Myers- So it's not like, listen, you and this dog just aren't, you know, it's like, you have to understand the dog would be better off with someone who does this, this, and this. Jay Myers- Whereas you getting yourself a dog that's more like X, Y, Z, you guys would have such a fun time with all this. Jay Myers- And that other dog would have such a fun time with all that. Jay Myers- And, and typically speaking people, they're like maternal or paternal instincts kick in and they're like, you know what? Jay Myers- I love this dog. Jay Myers- I'm going to do right by the dog. Jay Myers- If that means letting it go, that's painful, but I can accept this. Jay Myers- That's real. Jay Myers- That's real. Jay Myers- Got to break. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- Oh man. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- Where that therapist just maybe, maybe you considered divorce. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- Well, I shouldn't consider divorce. Jay Myers- All right, let's move forward. Jay Myers- So Michael, you've had amazing insight and helped us out. Jay Myers- What are some projects, some things that you're passionate about, something that you want to tell our audience? Jay Myers- So thank you. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- Yeah. Jay Myers- Thanks for the opportunity. Jay Myers- I have a whole bunch of changes happening at our school.

Jay Myers- So I think we were talking about it, I think maybe before we started recording Jay Myers- Mm-hmm . Jay Myers- The coronavirus, the pause that it caused, awful, awful for lots of people. Jay Myers- And I feel bad about that, but it gave me a big block of time to do a bunch ! Jay Myers- of stuff that I've been wanting to do and just could not find the time to do. Jay Myers- And so we're revamping a whole bunch of our programs at the school. Jay Myers- There'll be stuff coming out about it, but most of the classes that traditionally were offered only in person will now have live online components- Jay Myers- Amazing. Jay Myers- Where you can- Jay Myers- Hang on for a sec, sorry. Jay Myers- I'm sorry. Jay Myers- Hold on. Jay Myers- Okay. Jay Myers- Hi. Jay Myers- Hi. Jay Myers- Hi. Jay Myers- Hi. Jay Myers- Hi. Jay Myers- Hi. Jay Myers- So she wants some information, she wants me to write something down. Jay Myers- No, do your thing. Jay Myers- We can cut all this out. Jay Myers- Do you remember where he was? Jay Myers- What's your name, Michael Ellis' wife? Jay Myers- Carole. Jay Myers- Carole. I'm stepping up a quick finishing sentence for the outro, Brent, so that we can mention the school and the revamp one more time. Awesome. Sounds good. All right. Could we actually, could we just, could we take it again just from the school stuff? Let's just go and, all right, I'll just, I'll cue you in. All right, Michael, I really want to thank you so much for just giving us all this insight, but I really want to dive into what projects and things are you really passionate about that you want to go ahead and tell our listeners about? Sure. Thank you. As we were talking about before the show started, the coronavirus has caused a whole lot of hardship for a lot of people. And it's sensitive to that, but also the break, the three months basically that we shut down and couldn't have students on campus, gave me a giant block of time to do a whole bunch of changes that I've been wanting to do for years. Right. And I'm scheduled out. The school was scheduled out a year and a half to two years in advance. And so taking a big pause, meaning you have to make your schedule that far enough in advance so that people can plan. When people are traveling to the school and having to find lodging and stay there and take two and three weeks, and then our long term program four months off from what they're doing, then that's a major kind of planning thing for them. So we need to be projected out far enough so that people can make those plans. And so that meant that I would schedule it.

And then next thing you know, you don't have no breaks. There were things that I wanted to change in the way I structured the programs in the beginning that I just never got around to. So I have gotten around to it and spent a fair amount of time over the last few months. And the big one is that almost all of our offerings will be available remotely. Awesome. Right. So there will be some recorded portions that people can watch ahead of it. There will be some live lectures and discussions, and then there's live dog work where you actually can work your dog and get feedback from us. Amazing. So as if you were coming as close to being there as possible. And in some ways, actually, I'm finding that it has advantages. Like when the dogs, we can make shorter blocks of time so the dogs aren't sitting in crates as much when they're at the school and things like that. When you have large classes, the dogs don't have to go out of environments where they're potentially comfortable for some of the reactive and fearful dogs. They can work in an environment where they're already comfortable. And then actually, you know, you pop in earbuds and you have good cameras. And I can see everyone can see right what you're doing up close. That's awesome. And so we're in the process of working through it, and it's working really well. So I'm very excited about the fact that a lot of people that would be unable to come to the school the way the old format was should now be able to access what we're doing. That's amazing. Right. What are some of like the core classes or core courses that you teach? So I'm finishing up right now our obedience intensive, which is kind of the fundamental way we approach obedience in general. So this is the foundation of everything we do. When we talk about principles, this is the one that covers the principles and the basics of that. And it was when I designed it. Originally, it was two weeks, Monday through Friday from five, basically all day, two weeks. And then for this, I extended it out to three weeks and it's basically four hour days. So it was run 10 to two. And tomorrow is the last day of it. And so that class is super well attended in general. We usually have 15 or 20 students in that class when we run it. And we're traditionally running it about four times a year. And so now this online version, there's really kind of no limit to how big the class can be because we use the Zoom breakout rooms. And I can have an instructor with and I can make just make the groups small. So I don't actually have to have sitting there either.

So my instructors, the people that I've been training with for years, could be home running practice with people. And so that actually it's been kind of remarkable. And the student feedback on the first one, which is just winding up, seems to be really good. So there'll be a lot more of that stuff. And then we have like e-color class and I have classes on motivation and we have more advanced obedience classes. All those are getting structured in those formats. And the goal will be to give people options, meaning there'll be an option where you don't have to be there every day. The lecture portions will be recorded and you just drop in for the practical portions twice a week or whatever. For people that are busier, they'll be able to access the same class. And somebody else who wants to do it in a concentrated period of time will be able to do it in there. Amazing. Now, do you guys offer us like graduation certifications from the – okay. And is that now available online as well? That is huge. Everyone who's listening, that is huge. You guys can go online and train at Michael Ellis' school online versus having to drive to Northern California and live there. That is amazing. I think that's really, really awesome because it opens up the world. I mean, not only for the instructor but for the students themselves. It just makes it that much more accessible for anybody who – and it's – I mean, I'm glad of all the people who are capable in the position right now to do that kind of thing. I'm really glad it's you. So, yeah, definitely anybody listening, do this. Go to Michael Ellis' school. That's where you need to be. Yeah. I mean, you're going to learn – you're going to learn amazing things. I mean, I – and we'll be very upfront. Like, there's been a lot of people and, you know, sources of knowledge that I've pulled from. But, you know, one thing me, Mariano, and Tyler were all riffing on last week was just, like, the precise language. Like, you really say what it is and you say how – you know, you say it clearly. You make it make sense to the mind, the heart, and just in general. So, it's so easy to remember when you speak because you make sure it makes sense to both the mind and the heart at the same time. So. Incredible. You know what? I'm going to do it, actually. I'm going to sign up for the school. I'm going to find out when the next class is. No, I'm going to sign up for the school. No, I'm serious. I'm on the site right now. I'm going to – so, sorry. Continue. There's nothing on the site yet, so you're going to be – Never mind. Cool. Schedule in process. Right now, we're just finding the content.

The schedule will be up probably over the next couple of months. I got it. I'm going to keep my eyes open. Ha, ha, sucker. I'm going to sign up first. Awesome, man. Awesome. So, what does it entail, the whole certification? How long is that process? So, the way we do it is we give specific certificates for any course you take. So, somebody could take any of the classes, and you get – I completed the obedience intensive at the Michael L. School. We get a certificate for that. And then our – we have a major program called our Immersion Program. It's a four-month-long program where traditionally people come and stay on campus. That one, you get an overarching certificate. I completed the Immersion Program. And that one is going to be partially online and then partially in person. You don't have to come for it. You don't have to be there, yeah. But it doesn't have to be for four months still? No, no. There's going to be a month to six weeks off-campus remote learning. And then you come there for two months, two and a half months. See, that's amazing. So, you cut somebody's time commitment down by like a month and a half. That's incredible. That's awesome. Yeah. Makes a big difference in that sense. And once you're there, too, the time is more concentrated hands-on. Love that. Like, not mixing together. The classroom – most of the classroom stuff is already done. And you guys have dogs or we bring dogs? We do both for people. So, people bring dogs they want, and then we arrange loaner dogs for people, too. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, I just wish I could figure out a way to run my business and also go to school. That's the tricky part, right? That's the tricky part. And that's why when I originally did the school, that's why I had weekly classes. I had the long program, but I broke it all up into one- and two-week modules because so many people that were already trainers, like, oh, I'd love to come, but I can't take four months off my business. Yeah. And so, chunks. And so, now I'll still have some of those modular ones, lots of those. But the larger program is now kind of standalone. Okay. Dude, Brent, in all seriousness, you go, and I'll cover the dogs, and then we switch out. Dude. Damn. That's doable. That's how close we are. I trust him running my business while I'm gone. For sure. Nice. For sure. So, yeah. We work together for that long. We have – yeah. Awesome. Okay, cool. Well, that's our personal life. Back to the podcast. Back to the podcast. Can I ask you a question, Michael? So, here was an interesting thing that me and Brent really wanted to make sure to get into was Tyler brought up something with Tommy.

And we liked your podcast with Tommy as well. Tommy from Upstate Canine, who has an amazing podcast. Our listeners, please check that out. I believe it's No Bad Dog Podcast or No Bad Dogs Podcast. Say that again? I think that sounds right. So, one thing that Tyler talked about was the term balanced training is such a blanket these days. It's such a massive kind of – it's almost too big that it encompasses people like you've talked about that. You slap some food work in the beginning and you call yourself a balanced dog trainer. Almost so to the point that he's reluctant to really call himself that anymore. So, now he calls himself a principal dog trainer. So, Brent and I kind of came up with a little brainstorming idea of like, okay, well then, what do we call the new thing then? What is this new thing? And what we've kind of been trying to figure out is how do you take the art of dog training and put that into words and put it into an ideal that's digestible, kind of like you do with your lesson plans. How do I take this from this rough guesstimate in my head and turn it into something tangible? And what we're trying to put into words, and then I just wanted to hear your thoughts, were of all the different dog training methodologies, and like we talked about with Sean, it's definitely important to master them before you move on and don't jump around. But with that being said, when you do master it, learn more. I find this phenomenon, I don't really know how better to explain it than like shifting gears in a car where we're not talking extremes, like you're revving the bolts off of it, but just in the middle where you could be in third, could be in second, either way the car would run fine, but it's just a matter of maximizing. And I find that like, for example, a really high level food trainer and a really high level leash trainer, e-collar trainer, whatever the case, can teach a lot of the same stuff. And so if these possibilities then overlap, how then do you go about choosing which is the absolute best to go for this particular scenario? I think it comes down to what Tyler said about understanding the principles, right? So you're going to adjust it for the dog that's in front of you. So one of those methodologies is going to have an advantage for a given dog, right? And so you'll speed up the learning process. You'll reduce the amount of stress. You'll solve certain problems with one of those over the other or pieces of both. And when you understand the principles, then you make those adjustments. And that's what balanced training is supposed to be. And I'm with Tyler.

Like I've stopped using the term in general. It's out there and you use it because you can try to, it's a, it's a, um, an antidote to the purely reward based kind of movement. And the idea that like anybody that's using, uh, any kind of pressure doesn't understand rewards and that whole, I mean, I get where it came from, but it, but true it's, it's too big a blanket now. And people are, it are, have kind of grabbed that name and they're using it as a marketing tool and they're not necessarily doing good principle dog training. And so now you're going like, well, I don't want to get lumped in with that guy. Right. And so I think it would, you understand that the, the principles that underlie both of those approaches, right. Then you get to adjust to the dog that's in front of you based on experience. And part of that will be experimentation. Like you have to be willing, like I've been doing it this way a lot in a long time and I'm comfortable. Well, I'm going to try, try this a little earlier with this dog. I'm going to try this a little later. I'm going to try to do more with this dog with rewards than I did with the last dog. I'm going to try to introduce the collar earlier to this dog or whatever that is, where you just kind of push the boundaries a little bit to feel how it works with a given dog and then be flexible to adjust as they go along. Right. That's the thing, real balance. If you want to use that term, it's a theoretical state. You don't get there. It's a moving target. You used my word. Mariano says moving target all the time. I'm so excited. And you don't want to go way over there and then right there sort of around that and where that is, is different. And so I think I like the idea of principled because it has a double. You understand the principle. Yeah, true. And you. Well, because people would throw around like operant dog trainer. I'm an operant dog trainer. You know, they've, they've tried that and it. But everybody's an operant dog trainer. You can't. True. True. It's one. Well, that's when they say like it's scientifically based. Well, everything's worked scientifically at some point. Right. So. So then a couple of questions. Do you think that the term balanced dog training is approaching the end of its like life cycle? Has it served its purpose? Is it time to move on? Yeah, I think so. I think like I don't like labels. Yeah, I don't like. Right. I don't like. I don't like saying I have systems. I mean, we need to speak a common language. We craft art. Science has a jargon, has a set of terminology where we agree on the definitions of certain things. Right.

And when they're broad like that, they cover that's too big a tent. Then they lose their value. Right. Labels are kind of just for marketing or people who like labels. Right. Right. Right. Have term that we all universally agree on its meaning is essential. That's how we communicate with each other. Right. That's necessary. But when the terms get too big and everybody has a different idea of what it means and they're misapplying it, now it's not very useful for us anymore. And then my second question would be, would you agree with this, that a good trainer, you know, term aside, a good principle-based dog trainer, I think the thing that experience gets you when we talk about each and every one of these methods could work to achieve this particular objective. But deciding which is absolutely best and most advantageous, I think that what experience teaches you is foresight to the hindsight, because they always say hindsight's 20-20. Right. So, and I'm going to bring up Sean one more time, is one thing that he explained to us that was just, I thought, you know, such an amazing, you know, he's such a good bite work trainer. And he was explaining to us, when you're working bite stuff with a dog, and now we're talking the dog is still young, but they've got their obedience down and they're now getting into bite stuff. And a lot of times, of course, you start with softer and smaller sleeves to not intimidate the dog before you go on to like straight jute or whatever, you know. So, one thing that he really fascinated me with was this explanation about the dog was performing perfectly in the moment, but the stress, the whole lesson was too much for the dog, which wasn't apparent until like two, three lessons later when they bring out that sleeve and the dog was reluctant to grab. And he was like, and he knew it at the time, and he was talking to us about after the fact, like, okay, so these are the things you need to look out for. And the dog looked great at, in the moment, but there was tiny things that he picked up on that were like, look, you're going to see in a couple lessons, it was too much. That's absolutely experience. And that's what winds up happening when you talk about which path I'm going to take, which methodology, which way I'm going to lean. What happens with experience, and by making lots of mistakes, right, you figure out, you go, oh, I've seen this type of dog before. So, my initial interaction with the dog is like, oh, I know you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. And so, I know, don't go that way because it doesn't end well for this type of dog. And you go another way.

And you start to recognize that earlier, right? And that's the only experience that can give you that to you, only just doing it, feeling it. And when we were talking about that before, that's one thing you cannot shortcut. You have to put your hands on a lot of different dogs, and you have to have been paying attention. You have to watch. In the moment, you can't be going through the motion. You have to pay attention to body language and the little things. And in protection work, that's essential. Anybody that's a good decoy, the person, they notice the subtleties before it's externally visible to everyone else. And they make adjustments then and there. And so, then they don't create a problem. If you push past that, that's where problems come in. When it becomes obvious to everybody that's a problem, you're too late. Right, right, right, right. Right? And that's just life experience, right? Yeah, that's the wisdom. Enjoy the ride. You'll get there. If you keep at it, you will get there if you want it. But patience. Patience. Patience. I was actually just going to ask you. I was like, what advice do you have for young dog trainers? Patience. Go up. Do the work. Pay attention. Concentrate. Be in the moment. And be patient. You'll get there. But you have to let it happen as it's going to happen. You can't jump any steps. There's no way. And talent, like in anything else, right? So, like there are people that pick it up quickly, but that's still not experience. Yeah, I get it. You just have to stay at it. So, enjoy it. And also, as a dog trainer, you have to be process driven. Yes. If you're a super goal-oriented person, like I want to be at the end. I want to train. I want to win the competition. You're going to be unhappy as a dog trainer because you spend 95% of your time in process. And most of the transcendent moments happen with you and a dog by yourselves somewhere when you're not on the finished product, but you have some little breakthrough. Or we had the perfect training session today. And that has to feel good to you. That has to be the one that matters, not the end result portion. And if you're enjoying that day-to-day process and getting in there and those little breakthroughs and stuff, then this is the discipline for you, for sure. But if you're like, I want it done yesterday and I want to be the winner and I want to have my dog trained already, you're going to hate dog training because you spend all your time in process and very little at the destination. Right, right. That's true. That's true. Yeah. And there is a meditative state that dog training can.

You wake up in the morning, you work five, six, seven dogs before lunchtime. And I love it. You know what's funny is that's a learned skill because I'm super bad at that meditative state. So the day-to-day grind of working the dogs, I love it. And I love to be present. And I totally agree. But sometimes I need extra noise to keep me busy while I'm at it. So I'll have my headphones on and working the dogs. And it's low enough I can still hear and see and be present with the dog. But I always get jealous of people who just have that natural affinity to just buckle down and just work. Hey, whatever works for you, as long as it's working. Michael Ellis, I really want to thank you so much for joining us and just gracing us with your knowledge, your time, your experience, your insights. Don't forget, you told me you were going to help me with that one thing. So I'm going to hold you to that. So those of you guys who are interested in checking out what Michael Ellis is up to, go ahead and go to www.michaelellisschool.com. He has just recently revamped all of his curriculum to now be virtual, online, and able to be done at home. So go ahead and check that out. Please go ahead and follow Michael Ellis at Michael underscore Ellis underscore school. And you can also find him at Learburg as well for some of his content. Again, this is episode 20. Thank you guys so much for joining us. Now, for those of you who really like this podcast, please go ahead and like us, comment, subscribe. You can find us on all podcast platforms. And also, if you guys are watching this on YouTube, go ahead and subscribe for us and go and leave comments down below. We really hope if you're a young dog trainer or just a dog training enthusiast that this podcast brought a lot of value to you. Thank you guys again so much. And we hope to see you guys in episode 21. Hey, everybody. Be sure to check out Michael's school. He couldn't be more excited to introduce a major revamp to the way that classes will be made available. Almost all classes will now be available remotely. They'll include a revolutionary combination of live lessons, pre-recorded lectures, and hands-on work with Michael and his staff. Thank you guys again so much. And we'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Dog Trainers Podcast, a podcast created by dog trainers, for dog trainers, or anyone who's ever fallen in love with man's best friend. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.