에피소드 18 - '안 돼'의 의미

constantly have someone following you around and you're like live like you know the the modern day equivalent of the Truman Show would be like the Kardashians, right? The television series filmed >> reality life. Um which is not really reality. It's pretty much staged. But you get you get what I'm saying, right? So, it's the organic moments like the ones that pop up like the dog does something >> cool and you pay it or or the dog does something bad and you reflexively provide a timely correction, right? Those are the things that can't really be replicated. >> Yeah. And it's you see it like this is when you're you're in the zone, right? You're training, maybe you're training with somebody else and then the dog does something in that moment and then you look at the other person. Did you did you notice that? Did you catch that? Right? That little thing where the dog usually it's where the dog switches to understanding, right? That one moment where they get it. Um, but that's why I thought a while ago, like years ago, I thought about just having um a training room set up with like cameras everywhere. >> That's brilliant. >> Being walking in and just being able to hit a button where all the cameras start recording at the same time >> or even even they're just activated by motion like there's just a constantly running CCTV loop on loop, right? But and the thing of this as you know it's fine to do that but then you have to go back and you have to watch all that again to capture the moments that are going to be put out like on video. So that's why >> y >> yeah you need to have somebody pretty much dedicated to that. >> Yeah. And that's why the people that can afford to do that for the most part or they have hired people to video and then to edit and then to that know how to get the very good quality video. um they put out the content that people watch and whether it's right or wrong or whether it's the best way to do something or just a way to do something right is only dictated because they are able to put it out and not spend all their time doing that, >> right? >> Um especially if you have like I mean you have kids, right? you have a family. Uh you have a business to run where when I say business, it's not just you. You have other people that um are working for you. So you have a lot of other stuff to do to add to that video that you need to edit on top of that. >> Yeah. >> Now it's, you know, taking a lot of your time. And and the thing is for you especially, how much is it going to add to your business, you know, if you're already successful, but >> right, >> not, you know, it can be done. There's people that do it. >> Oh, for sure.

It's not as easy as um it seems sometimes. Right. >> Right. And you you mention I mean like you're absolutely right. The algorithms, you know, uh they favor they don't the algorithm has no way of knowing what is quality as far as like the like say we're talking say we're talking dog training videos, right? the the algorithm and Instagram or Facebook or YouTube, they have no way of knowing if that is actually good advice. What they know is if people are liking it or if they're subscribing it and that doesn't necess Now it can mean and it can be a reflection of good content, but it's not always a reflection of good content um or or or or content that is correct, right? or or uh true to the discipline, right? Um >> yeah, >> you know, and and so that's that's the thing is because when you and maybe you have someone who hits it big on one video and they get a ton of subscribers and that video was a good video and it was putting out good information, but they just struck gold, right? They struck they struck the digital gold mine. And then subsequent videos like that's the thing about social media is like people think just cuz one thing goes viral right that gives you credibility. You may have just randomly happened on something that was, you know, serendipitously incredible and then but if you have subsequent videos that are not true to form or correct by, you know, science like definition of learning theory and things like that, you have you can you can be actually somewhat misleading, right? Um, and again kind of talking about Dunning Krueger, right? You get someone who learns something, you know, and their confidence in their knowledge spikes and they think they know it all and they they they feel overconfident. But as time goes on, that spike is going to drop down the more you stay with it because then the more the longer you're in it, you're going to learn, wow, I don't really know as much as I thought I did. And it's it's that progression of evolution, you know, with with with respect to knowledge. And so it's interesting thing >> and that's also where it goes where then you're like you realize that the stuff you know is not everything. In the beginning, you think you know everything, right? And then you realize like, oh, I don't know everything, >> right? And then you reach a stage where you're like, man, I'm not as good as I thought. >> Well, it's like that that snippet from that podcast from Michael Ellis. uh I don't know who he was being interviewed by, but you sent that podcast snippet to me and you know it's the same thing like along your progression in the journey of the Dunning Krueger evolution

you the the further along you are the longer you're in the process of like examining knowledge uh scrutinizing knowledge and experiences the more you come to understand that there are few things that are absolute right >> yeah If you watch any like I mean we've heard it a lot but Bart a lot of times says yes but um because there it's not necessarily that that's the end of it. That's the only way to do it. it and to not to say that this this is the correct way he's to say and that's the thing with Naple Po is that you learn that it's not there's no correct way there's only a correct way for that dog >> in that moment because you it's like it's like the saying goes you never stand in the same river twice because conditions are constantly changing. >> Yep. And that's where you learn. The more you the more you learn, the more you you realize that it's you don't sit on one way. Um only if I can explain it well that you you have to be adaptable but you have to have a framework you work on. So you can adjust to each individual either person or dog that you're training or teaching, >> right? And >> it it is this isn't to say that we're saying that frameworks aren't important. Like you just said, they are important because you can't make course corrections if you're not in in a in heading in a specific direction, right? Like it's like if you're not on the path, don't take a detour. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, stick to something that's known because what's known has been proven, right? That it's been proven to be effective in most cases, right? Not all cases because again, not absolute. We're not talking absolutism, but in most cases. And so, that covers you. It keeps you safe. the likelihood that you do something wrong by sticking to a framework that has been tried and true over many years is going to be so much more effective for you. And then if you run out of ideas or that framework you've exhausted the options that that framework provides you, that's when you can say, "Okay, let's let's start experimenting now." >> Exactly. Right. And the more you learn, the more you don't have to think about the framework. You just do it right. And the adjustments is the are the things you have to think about in a particular moment as far as to a specific dog. >> Yeah. But the one thing you see that you notice um the you can tell when somebody just learned something. It's because they will argue it like it's the only thing. >> Uhhuh. They they can't see the alternative side to it. >> Yeah. They can't see what Especially like in if we're talking about dog training. if if they see something a technique or something being used for a

specific reason. >> Yeah. >> But they learned this other thing and they just learned it. That's kind of the Dunny Krueger. They just learned it. So they think that's the only way to do it, >> right? >> And they will argue it like you're wrong. >> Yeah. Because it doesn't make sense to them how it could be any other way. If the way that if in their mind the way that they learned it is the right way, how could there possibly be another way? >> Correct. That's um I mean that's pretty much it. Think about all that you you see comments kind of jumping back to the content and posting content. It's if you look at Bart and Michael when they post videos and they're posting very good like excellent training videos, right, with little learning moments in them, but they will get say a thousand views, but then they post something that's people are it's controversial a little bit and people are complaining about and then that gets 10,000 views. Yeah. Yeah. People. >> And it's not even like it's not it it's not like a a very um how do I say it? It's not an exceptional training video. It's just a simple training video, >> right? >> But because there was controversy in it, now it gets all these views. Whereas the exceptional training video gets no views, >> right? I mean it the thing that I've come to understand and a lot of other trainers do right after time in the industry and you know success and it's like the the the secrets of dog training are are hidden or masked with simplicity right >> you know like and it's not the shiny object everyone wants the shiny object especially because that's what uh drives the algorithm the algorithm drives is driven by the shiny object because the shiny objects get the likes, right? And >> but the likes don't even get that many views as the dislikes. >> So when there's people disliking something, it'll get more views than when there's people liking it. >> What What do they say? People People love to hate. >> Yeah. Well, they're looking for >> people always looking for something to criticize about. >> Yeah. >> Right. To criticize. Like maybe it I think for a lot of people comes from their level of talent is not up to the same as the person they're viewing and they have to kind of bring it down. They look for a spot where they can say, "Look, he's not that good." Do you think that's a do you think that's a little bit of manifestation of the Dunning Krueger effect where like people hate on things that they don't understand or like you know the saying goes you'll never be criticized by someone who's doing more than you right like a rich person is never going to make fun of someone for trying to make money right

or a fit person is not going to blame someone for going to the gym every day like you know it's it's that idea it's that idea >> it's the yes with the person that's reached that pinnacle, right? That's where they don't, like we said, they don't argue with people that are below them, >> right? >> Um, it was there was a good like, you know, I was in the casino business for a long time and my wife still is, but there was a guy that she worked with and he had been in the business for a long time. He had held every position from like casino manager to pit manager to dealer to supervisor. Uh but now he was at the end of his career and he was just taking it easy and he was just a floor supervisor. So just to explain it goes like dealer floor supervisor like pit manager assistant shift shift manager is kind of then casino manager. It kind of goes in that order, right? So, he was just a floor supervisor at the time, but there was a young guy that had been promoted above him and it was kind of like we say Dunning Krueger, right? He thought he knew everything because he had been promoted >> the position on this knowledge. >> Yeah. And he was on this guy continuously. So finally the guy stopped and he goes, "Lick son." He goes, "I've already been where you're trying to get to, meaning I've done everything already, right? I'm just taking it easy. I'm just here biting my time." Um, and that that's one thing you see is I think that's part of done in Krueger where they like as far as casino industry goes, they get people get promoted and now they think, "Oh, I'm in charge. The reason I'm in charge is because I'm good." >> Uh, not necessarily, >> right? Maybe you have potential to be good, but at this time you're not. And the people below you may have more experience than you. That's an interesting thing because so in a in a different life back before I was a full-time dog trainer business owner um I worked in soft I was in SAS software as a service uh the tech the the tech sector and it was interesting because maybe I was wrong maybe this is just like my my vanity but there was there was a a couple different times where I was on teams that were led by people that I know for sure I knew more about certain aspects of the the services or the products that we that we were selling and and you know providing to clients but and so so it's interesting and I I know like you hear people all the time like oh I know so much more than my boss like why is my boss my boss and like sometimes the people that are promoted to positions of management aren't necessarily there because they know more than you they have a different skill set

right they have they have the ability ability to manage people and they can they're they're great with uh you know professional conversations and they can manage you know emotions or morale or you know team organization all that stuff does and and a lot of people always like you know you would hear like someone would get a promotion to like team manager or director level uh positions and they'd be like oh I sold way more than this person right I closed more clients I have a bigger book of business, which is all true, but I think in a lot of situations, sometimes the the job titles that people are seeking don't always require the proof that people think they do, right? Like to be able to sell more. >> Yeah. >> But that Yeah. Good a good leader is not necessarily the best uh the best at that. whatever they're leading. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> A good leader is not necessarily the best. The problem is is that a well know he's not the best, >> right? >> But a lot of times people get promoted and they believe that they got promoted because they were the best, >> right? >> And they act like everybody below them doesn't know like as much as they do. Yeah. >> And that's the problem that that's um a not a good leader, >> right? Because a good leader knows that >> it's it's about leading and not about telling people what to do necessarily, right? >> Absolutely. And and like to to kind of bring this back into like relevance for those in the dog industry, right? Like you might be working at a dog training business, right? Or a boarding and daycare facility or a vet clinic. And you know, you might be a trainer or a vette and you may w think like, "Wow, I'm I'm a better dog trainer than so- and so like why I want to like promote out of this position and because of my skill as a dog trainer, it makes me qualified to, you know, go into management or go into, you know, something else or go go into sales or whatever." But but like your skill as a dog trainer like is keeping you there because you're good at that stuff, right? You're not good at the other stuff that would be necessary like having conversations, >> you know? And for dog trainers, right, >> they gravitate to training dogs because you get to be around animals, you know, >> and that's the thing. It's you may be really good at training a dog, but you may not be good at training somebody else to train a dog. >> Yeah. And what is what is Bart and Michael? They when I was going through my own silver school, I we I was sitting at, you know, back u when we would have lunch in between class uh in the middle of the day, we're having a conversation about the different different

characterizations of dog trainers. Like there was the there's the professor like the person who can teach dog training theories. There was the practitioner and there was oh man there was there was one other one and I can't remember. I'll have to go I have it written in my notes. I'll have to go back and review my notes. But it was really interesting because there are different types of people who gravitate towards different aspects of the dog training industry. Some people love the hands-on experience and they will never want to let go of the leash. Some people are really good at teaching other people, right? They have a they've got a knack for communication and they can relay concepts that might seem foreign and dumb it down or water it down to a level that is easily digestible for most folks. Um, and then there's uh, oh man, I wish I had that off the able to recall off the top of my head because it was it was a really interesting conversation and I remember writing down writing it down in my notebook. So, I'll have to go dig it up, bring it up on another episode, >> record back. >> Well, that's the thing. Everybody has different um, skills. >> Yeah. you know, >> and sometimes they the the skills don't allow them to move to say like a higher position in an organization because every time you move there's different skills needed. >> Yeah, I think okay I think I I think I have re I think I recalled it. So you have the person who can do meaning the practitioner, right? The person who who's good with the leash, right? So that's the person that can do. The person that can teach is like the professor, right? And then um then you have the person who can do and teach, right? Those are the rarest of the three, right? Usually you have someone who can do it really well, but they can't teach other people how to do it, but they've got the good sense for it. They've got the second nature, the feel. Um and then you've got people who can teach, but can't necessarily do it as well. um they're great for you know delivery of information and knowledge um and then you've got the combination the hybrid which is you know >> the best of both worlds but >> and I think talking about teaching there's different levels of teaching there's a level of teaching like say when you if you teach a client like you train their dog and then you teach the client >> they only need like the practical stuff like the everyday handling. >> Yeah. >> They don't necessarily need to know why the dog is doing what it's doing. >> Um or the nuances from like learning theory and uh why is the dog motivated, why is it not motivated, you know,

>> and then some people are really good at teaching that. If they try to teach the other nuance stuff and then the all the the reasons why a dog is doing something, they can't teach it, you know, or they're not as good at teaching it. >> Yeah. >> But they can it very well. >> Yes, that's that's true. And but I will say this from like a business perspective, there are some clients, not all, and like you said, this is this is more the exception than the rule, but there are some clients and it is important as a business owner, speaking to, you know, some of our viewers that are like either in the dog training business for uh for their careers or um or they're considering getting into it, like you know, um like some consult consulting and coaching advice here uh for budding entrepreneurs in the dog world. Um it it does help you to be able like you should be able to provide at least a um you know a substantial uh explanation for some things because that's where you can position yourself as a subject matter subject matter expert, right? And and that does matter to some people. Some people like the the level of informed consumerism today is is way higher than it used to be, right? It used to be like the phrase if you build it they will come. People would just say, "Oh, there's a dog training store around around the corner. That must be they must know what they're doing." But now people because of the internet are so much more informed. They're scrutinizing your work, your history, all of that stuff. So it does help if you are in a position where you can speak a little bit to you know some of the uh the wise and the underlying reasons for behavior. It just helps you out overall as a business. um if you're able to provide some level of that. Now, you're not going to give a PhD level course on it, but you know, >> but that's where I see that's that was a mistake I made when I first started like training and teaching people teaching people as in not in a class, but in the a client with their dog >> is I would I would go into more depth on something than was needed for that person. Mhm. >> Right. I was giving them more information than they needed. >> Right. >> And because they could they they weren't in a position to understand it. >> Right. Whereas now I realize there's there'll be once in a while I'll get a person where I go in depth and explain why everything's happening because they grasp it and they're interested in the the the learning and training like side of it, the theory side of it rather than how can I just get my dog to sit right? You know, and then it's every once in a while you get a client like

that and you you you spend more time. At least I do. I spend more time teaching. >> Yeah. >> But most of the people I'm just like just do this. If your dog does this, just do this. Well, and >> that's another part about the Dunning Krueger progression is that in the beginning, you're gonna like the more the more recently you've learned something, the more interested you are in diving into the the nuances of things, the longer you've been in it and the further away you are from the starting point, the the the more capable you are of being a simple teacher, right? And they that you know that's something they say is like the people that really know or are experts in their field can explain something in fewer words or with very simple terms. Right. Um >> and that's absolutely true. Right. But I think one of the things that a I see especially here a lot of dog trainers don't do is because I see clients that have been to other trainers and there's certain things that should be explained to the client about why their dog is doing something that isn't explained. Like they don't know why their dog is doing something. They're just told to do this one thing. >> Mhm. >> But as we know that one thing is not necessarily useful in every single situation, >> right? >> But if you understand why your dog is doing it now, you can look at it differently >> and >> they don't teach it. But it's it I think it goes back to the knowledge. Like there's a lot of people just learn something and they don't keep learning. That's all they use is what they learned initially and they never learn anything from other people that you know or as things advance. Uh and which I saw it was a podcast. We're we're busy. He called right at this moment. We've been playing phone tag this week. >> Yeah. Uh so I was watching a a little bit of a podcast and there was a one one those people had a lot of experience. One person very high experience in dog training competition has you know won first place in different things. Mhm. >> And the other person said, I'm not going to say exactly what they said, but they used a like scientific term and which is very common and is used, the technique is used by every single person that trains a dog. And the person with a lot of experience in competition in training dogs, very good, like top of the field, did not know what it was. And that surprised me. H But then I think there's some people that just learn how to do and don't learn the reason behind it. They just keep learning all these things how to do. >> Yeah. >> This is how you do this. This is how you do this. And they they gather all that information of just how to do. And then

they know in this situation I can do this. But they don't know why. You don't they don't know why they're doing that. Even if they're at a high level, they don't know the reason behind doing that. They just know that they have 100 different things they can do. and they know from those 100 different things what will work in that situation. >> Not because they know the reason behind it, but because they've seen it work before, >> right? It surprised me. >> Yeah. And back to back to your example where you know you get a client with their dog who was trained by somebody else and maybe something wasn't explained to them or they weren't shown how to do something that to you is seemingly like it's blatantly obvious. It's like glaring you in the face that like this was like a complete oversight or you know a misstep on the prior trainer. Like how could you not have known this? Like one thing like I've gone through a personal development and the quality of teacher and trainer that I've become and I again in the beginning I was guilty of like you know I'd have have someone come to me and they would say oh my dog does this and I'd ask you well do you do x y and z in in response to your dog doing this and they're like no my trainer just said to do ABC instead of xyz and then I would you know uh proceed to tell them why they should have been told how to do XYZ. But as I've gone on, I've become less concerned with that. And uh I think as you know it will help create more openness amongst the community if people are to be more understanding and curious about oh okay well here's something else that you can do instead of like blaming the other person or trainer for not having shown them something that could have solved their problems. Maybe they had a reason for not doing that. maybe they were only capable, maybe they didn't know about it and maybe instead of like finding fault with that person, you know, and and that's this is more of like a personal conversation, you know, and observation that now I try to really make sure that like I'm less concerned about why something wasn't done and just say, "Okay, well, this is this is the dog we have in front of us. This is what we can do to fix it." And then move on from there and and let >> Yeah. And that's Yeah. The same thing. I don't criticize Yeah, I don't criticize other trainers in front of like clients or in general now. I don't I don't criticize anything I've seen if it's a small snippet as far as like um saying it's wrong. >> Right. >> Right. Not necessarily criticized, but saying it's wrong. Uh, and people ask me about a trainer and I will say, "Oh, you know, I won't say I'll just say

I won't say they're doing something wrong, right?" Um, and I will do like what you said. I'll say, "Well, this is the way I do it." >> Yeah. >> But, and not for people to think that I'm like jumping on other trainers for what they do, but I'll give you an example. Recently I had uh a couple that had been to another trainer to two other trainers and then come to me and one thing was like the explanation I gave you know clicked which then you say well maybe the other person gave a similar explanation it just didn't click. Yes that's possible. >> Sure. Uh and they said like you know now we understand more now because of you know the things you told us but with this particular trainer and the reason I'm bringing it up is because they had been told to only hold their leash in their right hand for example. >> Uhhuh. >> Like never hold the leash in the other hand. >> And to me that I don't care what kind of training it is. That's wrong. There's no situation where you need to tell a client only ever hold your leash in your right hand and that's kind of stuff. And even then I didn't say that was wrong although I was thinking it in my head like you you shouldn't tell people only do this but I explained you know why again why I did things the way I did >> which made sense to them and they understood. >> Yeah I And the thing for me is I always lead with curiosity right like I'm going to ask a question. I was recently in a situation where someone had misinterpreted like my questioning as like I was being critical. But when I don't understand something before I say why you shouldn't do it this way, I'm going to understand first why they think what they're doing is right because they might actually be doing something right and I I'm just not aware of it. So I I always like to lead with questions and that's just my nature, right? But I was it was misinterpreted as oh you know like >> uh like I was being overly critical and judgmental and I was like oh no not at all like that was not at all like what I meant you know like I wanted to know maybe you were doing >> but you know where it comes from and I think um for me the same thing I'm going to ask a lot of questions >> right >> to find out I'm not to find out if it's right or wrong. Just to find out how you have been taught and how you have been doing something because then I know how to answer it so you understand. >> Yeah. >> Because if you've only been taught to use a clicker, right? If you've only been taught to use a pinch collar, you've only been taught to use a slip lead, you know, the way you were taught is going to let me know how how I need to proceed. And that's where I'm asking questions.

And I think a lot of times, like you said, people think you're criticizing something or you're trying to get to like, oh, it's wrong. But no, I need every detail of how you were taught so that I can continue in a way that you'll understand >> or to know where the the the detour happened >> in the training because obviously if they're there, >> something went wrong. Right. It's there's it's just like there was another trainer and the people had a problem with behavioral problems, but the the person they hired would never even talked about the behavior stuff. Just kept doing obedience. Uh like just kept teaching obedience. Now, yes, in some instances or a lot of instances, obedience is going to fix a lot of problems, but at the same time, you have to tell them how it's going to fix those problems. Right. >> Right. >> You have to address the what they called you for and not just teach them what you know. >> You 100% right. Um, and I was thinking a lot about this recently. For most dog owners, like their comprehensive enjoyment of their dog is a total result of their dog understanding the meaning of no for something. Not not the word no, but not to do certain things like avoidance of a certain behavior. That that is where enjoyment of ownership of a dog comes into play is when a dog understands to avoid things that will make you upset. And when a dog successfully and correctly avoids the things that bothers the owner, the owner thinks, "Wow, what an amazing dog." It's not like there's so much like and this is not again not to go off on like saying positive only is not a good thing but I've thought actually you you brought this you just kind of made me think about this um because I've been thinking about this a lot and that that's one of the reasons why positive only training or reinforcement only training lacks is because you can't show a dog what not to do. You can show him other things that he might like, but it doesn't take away the value of something that he likes that you do not want him to do. Right? >> And and so when we're dealing with pet clients, the value of like they want to enjoy their dog. Most people most people don't want or need a highly obedient dog. Like they they want to enjoy their dog. They're more lenient with their dog when their dog like might doawtle to them when they recall it or you know they're not looking for sport level obedience, right? They just want to enjoy their dog's companionship. The relationship between human and animal is so rewarding for them. And the reward comes from not having to get on their dog's case where when >> Yes. Exactly. >> You know, so so so if we can if if

that's all you do with the dog is teach the dog what not to do, the level of satisfaction and enjoyment in the owner's eyes is going to skyrocket. And so that like for me that's why that's why punishment and um and showing a dog and punishment is a nasty word nowadays. But it's really you're just saying you're just teaching the dog what not to do. Right. That's all you're doing. Don't do certain behaviors and I will think the world of you. Right. >> Yes. But it's so interesting that like, you know, people have such an aversion to um using things that will help their dog really become like the best dog for that for that owner, you know? >> Yeah. But exactly teaching the person how to communicate to their dog when they're doing something they shouldn't be doing and they can communicate to their dog for the dog not to do that again in the future. Yes, sessation. Sessation of behavior is important >> because what you see is a lot of people are just they keep saying no, no, no, no, no, no. It's nagging, right? And the dog just looks at him and like here's my middle finger. I'm going to do what I want because your no is going falling on deaf ears. >> Absolutely. And here's the thing. Like, does a dog really know something if you have to constantly tell it not to do something that it should never do in its life? >> It does. >> Like, >> you see it with well-meaning people online or a person and not this is not trainers. This is just you know people with their dogs and they will say I have this problem and the per person comments just tell them a firm no. >> Yeah. >> And that's all they say and there's like there's no there's no explanation. There's no follow-up and it's and then you think like does this has this worked for that person where they're they just say no and their dog stops and 99.99% of the time no. It's they keep what happens is the people say no and the dog ignores them and they say no again and the dog ignores them and then they say no and then they move towards the dog and the dog stops. >> Right? and they think their no is working but it was not. It's because you went into action and they know something is coming now. >> Yeah. >> Whereas if they just the clear communication is the no leads to the consequence. >> Yeah. Again, teaching a dog what to do is very important. But when it comes to enjoying your dog, it's not what they know that makes you enjoy them. It's what they know not to do that makes your enjoyment of the dog more uh uh magnanimous in that, you know, relationship, right? >> It's what they know not to do. That's when you enjoy your dog, right? what they do when you tell them if you say

sit like and they I would take a dog that never chewed up furniture over a dog that would sit every time I told him to sit but would still chew up furniture >> exactly >> exact uh the this is the main thing I see with so many people that call me for help. And especially puppies or you get a lot of rescue dogs calling, right? I rescued this dog two months ago and it's doing this. You know, I rescued this dog six months ago, it's doing this. Oh, I got this puppy four months ago and then it's it's doing this. Uh but the main thing is that people miss and you tell them and they think it's cruel is just just put that dog on a leash 100% of the time in the beginning so that you are there to show them what they shouldn't be doing instead of letting them do the thing and then trying to fix it afterwards. >> Yeah. Once they've got a taste for it. >> Yeah. Especially that. And then people like, "Yeah, I rescued this dog two months ago and then I came home and it ate everything in the house." And then you say, "Well, just uh how about if you just And this is the best one. While I was gone, they chewed up everything." I was like, "Does does your dog chew anything while you're home?" No. Okay, then just put your dog in a crate when you're not home. You don't need any training, >> right? >> Like manage the dog. >> Yeah. Going to your point like you don't need to teach it to sit, to down, to heal, do whatever. Just when you're not home, put it in a crate, >> right? >> That'll fix all those problems. >> The cheapest training solution to many problems the pet owner has, right? >> That's it. A leash and a crate. >> Yeah. the the battles you can avoid even having even if you would win the battle against your dog like to use this analogy like the battles you can avoid you it's it's you become more successful right so it's like some people they're like oh my dog likes to drink out of the toilet okay well close the toilet lid and every toilet in the house every time you're done with the toilet but that's too much work okay well your dog's going to keep drinking out of the toilet years ago, we had a Rottweiler um that if you left the bathroom door open, he wouldn't he was not destructive, but if you left the bathroom door open, he would grab the toilet paper and pull like a string through the house. Like he wouldn't chew the toilet paper. He would just pull it through the house. You'd come home and just be lines of toilet paper throughout the house. Like >> I just had a braer hair that I delivered back to a client had had the same problem. That's this is the dog I'm thinking about. She told me, she's like, well, did you train him to not um uh

chew on toilet paper? And this is the first I've heard of it. And I'm like, uh, no. And she's like, did did he So he doesn't need he won't drink out of the toilet anymore? I'm like, well, he didn't with me. He he never did that with me because he never had the opportunity to do it, right? And so he never even went into my bathroom. Like I let him free in the house. Like he would be on place or he'd come hang out by me on the couch or whatever. And he had free roam in the house, but he never once wandered off searching for toilet paper roll just like your Rottweiler did, you know. >> Exactly. We just learned >> because there's two ways to do it, right? >> I can aversively teach the dog not to touch the toilet roll. Okay. And there's going to be discomfort for that dog. Or I can just close the door and manage it. And it's not because it's not something that's necessarily dangerous, you know, to the point where it's going to kill the dog if if I forget to close the door. >> Like, and that's that's where, >> speaking of, >> that's where I think there's a lot of alignment with Like so this this topic right I think that's where we share a lot of similarities with you know some of the purely positive trainers right like if you can avoid using like high pressure on a dog there are ways to do it and for example with puppies right like you know there most clients come in and like I've got a puppy he's chewing on all of our shoes and socks and furniture right like you know like clean up your house. Never leave your shoes and socks laying around. If he never has a chance in the in the stage of life where he wants to sink his teeth into everything, once he graduates past that stage and no longer has the interest in trying to put his mouth on everything, like when he's teething or something, then he's never going to think about it again. So, you just like manage the situation for the time period where it's relevant and when it applies. And then once that time period passes, the chances of you running into that situation with that dog are close to none. Not not always none, but like very very minimal. >> Yeah. And then there's the you have to look at the dog too >> because you'll have some dogs that consume whatever they destroy, right? And that can be dangerous. So in that situation even though management will work you know management sometimes fails. So in a situation where a dog is a consumer right will eat swallow stuff >> now you might have to say you know what we have to use uh an aversive technique so that the dog doesn't want to chew this stuff up in >> right >> but like my dog Han he's not a consumer he's a destroyer like

>> yeah he wants to never eat it to the point where it's dangerous for him. So with him, I can just manage it and it's never going to be a problem other than he might destroy something. >> Mhm. >> But again, if I want, I can go back and I can aversibly, you know, train that away >> if I want to. >> I remember being at your place and watching him go after those uh those jolly balls or those like those rubber balls that he loves to shred up. >> Yeah. That's funny. >> Yeah, we go through like one every week or two because it just we we manage it while we're using it. We only bring it out for him to play with, right? When we're doing something. >> Yeah. But by because he he likes to squeeze like he squeezes it, squeezes it. with overuse, little cuts will happen in the ball or where the squeaker is, that will push in because it's not one piece. And when that happens, now he's immediate, like within a second, he's grabbing and pulling and destroying it. >> Yeah. >> So then we're like, okay, we have to throw it away, get a new one. Um, the point to him, to Con especially, and this is a tip for everybody that has very operant dogs and dogs that learn very quickly. If you put handles on your doors in your house and you do not want your dog to learn to open the doors, if he's free in the house and you go in the room and you close the door behind you, lock it every single time. >> So, it's doesn't activate. >> He would at some point try to jump up and because you went in the room, he'll jump up at the door handle by accident. And if he opens it once, especially like Khan, he knows now he can get in how to open a door. >> That's so funny. >> And I do not want that with him. So every time I go in a room where he's I don't let him follow, I will lock the door behind me. So that even if he hits the door handle, he does not learn that it opens the door. And what happens as we know over time, if a dog is not successful, they will quit trying, >> right? So he doesn't try the doors anymore because he's tried before and it didn't work. >> And for some dogs. >> Yeah. And and and it's even worse for you because a dog like Khan, like a Dutch shepherd or a herder, has such a high pack social affinity, right? He like wants to be with you, right? He's following you. Like those dogs were bred to work for a human, right? And so the unlocking of the door is a hugely rewarding event, right? >> Yep. >> And so >> because he gets what he wants from doing that >> and and it's >> so yeah, that's I mean this has been really good conversation. Um, I think it's it's super valuable to people because we have a lot of people that are I think most people that are

training dogs are hobbyist trainers, right? They're not um doing it for a profession or a career. But I think all of this stuff, even knowing how to create content, because even if you're not a professional dog trainer, it's kind of like journaling, right? like taking notes, like recording the the learned experiences you have, like that stuff can be valuable to you in the future, right? Seeing how something worked and you know, most hobbyists are always interested in learning more about dog training. Like they always have like a really big appetite to learn more about how to train a dog. So, but yeah, super fun conversation and, you know, kind of an interesting back and forth about success as a dog trainer. Um, things that make it rewarding and enjoyable for the owners, you know, being able to relate to them because at the end of the day, if you can't do that, you won't have a business, right? you won't be successful as a dog trainer if you can't get it uh or demonstrate the value of it to the owner. Right. What else you got, Mike? Any other thoughts or any unique stories you want to tack on to the conversation? >> I keep seeing an ad for a school mountain something for online become a dog trainer >> method. >> No, no, no. It's uh it's like a a college more the way they have it. It's like a college. It's not method K9. It was like mountain something. The way they made it seem like it was a like a school and you could virtually become a dog trainer. >> Oh, there's several of those out there. But you I think that like for talk about a virtual course you have to have feedback especially if you're new. There's difference if you have experience and then you can look look at something or hear something and then you can understand it and do it. Whereas if you are new and never done anything, you I think you need to have the hands-on um being taught to you because the problem with like for a totally new person in a virtual course is they may be doing something they may be doing something not the way it was taught, but they won't have feedback for like another week or two weeks or you Yeah. Well, here's the thing with online learning where and I think online learning and in-person learning, they both have things that they do well at. Um, but if a career as a dog trainer is what you want, you definitely need the in-person learning or the inperson classroom educational environment because of what you said, because of the feedback, whether that's the feedback from the dog, the feedback in the moment from a master coach or a mentor. Um I do see uh you know there's a lot of online K9mmies and without fail the people that have gone

through an in-person training program are hands down far and away a better more well-rounded and capable dog trainer in my in my opinion for the people that I've seen um and for the experiences that I've had personally. I've been in person learning hands-on and I've also done remote learning courses, right? I've done someone's download or uh training program online. And the abilities I come away with from a from an in-person learning experience versus an online learning experience, they're just night and day different. Right now, the convenience factor, the reason for the the convenience and the volume, right? people do online stuff because most people are not willing to put up the investment to travel across the country or to bring someone to you to teach you and master coach you like very few people now you and I have both done that we've traveled we've spent lots of money and and I mean not not that we're the only ones but you know we've gone in person many times hotel fees transportation fees flights you know stays the the cost of tuition you Um, so where where there's a big uh like where where there's a lot of trending promoters of their own their own online courses, if you really are looking into uh becoming a professional dog trainer, go get the in-person experience. Right. >> Yeah. Well, this is and what I mean there's a diff there there's different kinds of online courses, right? There's online courses that give you information about ways to do things and then there's the ones that are like do this course and you will be a certified dog trainer, you know, after this course. Um, and that's the difference is like I think there's so many good online courses that give you the information and then there's those ones are like, "Yeah, just do this for six weeks and you're a dog trainer, right? Or do it for eight weeks and you're a dog trainer, >> right?" Which >> well the difference the difference between knowledge and wisdom they say is knowledge is knowing how to do something but wisdom is knowing the long-term consequences of doing something a certain way and being able to see how that will affect something down the road. Right. >> Yeah. That's what I think about a lot with training. uh the more I go is the change I'm making now, how is that going to affect the dog, you know, in a year? Is it going to be a good thing in a year or is it going to be is going to cause other problems, you know, in a year? So that's how I think of all everything, all the techniques and everything you do is like I that's where my thinking goes. what is going to happen long term >> and >> by teaching something this way

>> and that was the profound thing of that snippet from that podcast with Michael Ellis where he said that where he was kind of reminiscing and saying man I wish I'd have spent more time like if I knew what I know now about negative reinforcement it's just you and and it was very much like a nap poism right a very much like rooted in like the way Napo Po promotes like the relationship between negative reinforcement and positive punishment, right? They're this they're two sides of the same coin. >> Yep. >> You know, >> exactly. That's the first Yeah. There's so many things that um I see where the it's an epiphany for the person but like that's where I think well we we were taught this you know five years ago eight years ago whenever we went to the school um that's a diff the difficult part is not knowing what the other person knows. >> And >> right, >> the mistake is assuming they know what you know. >> Yep. >> No matter who it is, >> it's great. Yeah, this was a super episode. Um I believe episode 18. So stay tuned. And if you haven't checked out our other episodes, episodes 1 through 17, lots of good information there. >> Yeah, it's been fun. >> Good to good to get back on the >> on the do this more often. >> Yeah, right. Should we should do this again. So, yeah. Well, sounds good, Mike. Um, good luck with everything. >> Well, thanks everybody for listening if you got to the end. Um, like Jason said, check out our other episodes. And if you like something, comment. If you don't like it, comment. Tell us why you don't like it. If you think we're wrong, let us know. And if you can share this with other people that might find it interesting. >> Yep. >> Or share it with other people that you want to make fun of us with, right? So you guys can discuss it. >> Yeah. We can we can stand the heat. >> We know what we know. >> Or do we? >> We do like, you know, like Wakanda forever. Neighbor forever. >> Wakanda forever. >> Oh, that's the that's the name of this uh that's the name of this one. Wakanda forever. One thing that happens with online social media and everything is people become experts only because they are seen. They put content out, right? which is is it good is it bad it doesn't matter the more content they put out then all a sudden they become experts yeah >> and it's like the people that I would say that may be experts they don't bother to comment or say anything >> right yeah >> because they don't one they don't want to get involved >> yep

>> two it's it's a lot times there the explanation is more in depth than just a comment. >> So it's you can't and then that's the point. It's like the other person that I said you can't just say this is wrong. You have to explain why it's wrong, right? You know or why there is a better there might be a better way. >> Yeah, definitely. Um, that's an interesting thing. And like, you know what's crazy to me is without naming names, you have people that like learn a system and then they go out and they still use that system. Um, and they still teach it, but they bash like obviously I'm talking about Napobo. um and they'll turn around and criticize and ridicule the the people who gave them their knowledge. While on the other hand, there are this there are other people with same size or like equal followings and communities that when they teach you their system, you're not allowed to teach it, right? >> Yeah. like you you can't you can't answer questions about how you would solve a problem and yet >> and yet Napo Po is system and yet Napo Poe is the Android system of dog training right >> right it's it's the unlocked open source >> yeah if you see like what you're talking about I've seen and the way you know well one we know that that happens But I've seen people say I will show as much as I can >> right >> which means that they are not showing the whole thing >> right >> which would allow somebody to learn >> and 100% and the parts that they're not showing are the actual parts that the person needs to hear about to make a difference in the dog. The parts that are withheld are the solution to the problem. >> Exactly. >> Right. >> What is the the Well, the only solution to that is to put out more content. But then that if you think about unless you have somebody to follow you around and videotape you. >> Yeah. It's hard to capt everything while you're busy. It's like how are you going to do it? Like for example, I had with my along with my three dogs, I had six or seven other dogs at times for the last uh few months. >> Uhhuh. >> Right. So, how am I supposed to stop and pull out a camera, set out a camera, >> right? video, do what I want to do. Whereas you're taking out and you're just you're just training or you're letting dogs out or you know >> well taking dogs places. >> The answer for you is simple, man. The answer is simple. You need to hire >> an assistant. You need a you need an assistant. That's what an assistant's for. movie the what intern a non-paid uh intern in exchange for experience in a >> take a volunteer right >> you know that's interesting because you know there's been um I've been involved and in circles of where there's been

some criticism and to avoid that entire situation I pay everybody for everything because I don't want it coming back and fingers coming back and pointing saying, "Oh, uh, he manipulated me or he, uh, took advantage of my time or my interest in dogs." No, I pay for everything. Right? you drive to pick up a dog that's outside of like 30 minutes of where you're at, you're getting paid to go pick that dog up. Um, like I pay for everything to make sure that nobody can come back and say, "Oh, he took advantage." No, I didn't. I paid you for it. Whether you like the job or not or whether you didn't like what you got paid for or the the the the exchange, well, that's that's on you because you agreed to do the work. >> Yeah, that's the thing, too. It's pricing for private lessons, right, in dog training. >> Yeah. here. Let's let's let's officially kick this off because I think this is going somewhere that that would be good to build a podcast