시즌 2. 에피소드 20: STSK9의 니노 드로바에르 인터뷰 - DTP

So, Robert, of course, he's very sweet and very diplomatic and was kind of avoiding the Instagram live that he watched that motivated him to reach out to you. I believe I watched that exact same thing. If we're thinking of the same person, it was you and Denise. Denise Fenzie. Right. At least that's the one that I had seen. Yeah, it was a while back. It was about a year ago. You guys had this conversation. I think it took a minute. It was like an hour or so. And I dove into it a bit in. I didn't know exactly when it had started because, you know, Instagram, you just kind of jump in and you are where you are. But what Robert Cabral was saying, which I completely agree, and for those of you who haven't seen it, not only were your points, of course, very reasonable, but your ability to articulate the position is one that most trainers don't tend to have. And that was a very fascinating back and forth. And some of those points I wanted to articulate on a bit more. And in a nutshell, the way that I was told interviewing is done is everybody is the hero in their own story, and I want to learn your story and how it led you to that point and where we are now. I'd like to learn a bit more about being a police officer in Belgium, how that kind of shaped your dog training. So if we could, let's start at the beginning. All right. Yeah. Awesome. Do you want to go outside the box a little bit with that stuff? Yeah. I like that. Let's talk about who you were before you were a dog trainer. So tell people a little about your history. Yeah. So I was actually, when I was young, at the age of 13, I had the privilege to meet one of my best friends still today. He was a former Olympian. At that time, he was at the verge of becoming a pro athlete. He had a track and field runner, 200 meters, 100 meters. That was his specialty. And I hung out with him every day, all day. And I saw what it took to be successful because, of course, I looked up to him. He was a little bit older than me. And he took me to his races. He took me to his interviews. He's, you know, everywhere he went, his sponsors. So, you know, I got to see some of the stuff that he got through his performances. And it was very clear to me that a performance does not only exist of passion, because obviously you have passion if you want to pursue ambitions like being an Olympian. But the technique, the consistency he had, the focus, yeah, then the talents, then the skills, the combination of skills that he possessed. And that was a big influence for me at that age, 13 years old, 14, 15, 16. You know, you grow up with seeing somebody develop in that way.

And I guess it always been a part of me in that, you know, understanding what it would take if you really want to accomplish something more than average. And going into the police, of course, you know, that's a whole different story because not everybody can become an Olympian. I kind of tried, right, because, you know, you emulate somebody you look up to. But it was clear that I did have some traits that you need to have, which are the passion. I had the passion. I had the focus. I had a super discipline. But I did not have all the skills it would take to be an Olympian. And although I did also, you know, I was a couple with somebody who was also on a very high level running. So I was among people that are very into their trade, their craft, their skill set. And when I was at the police, I was, I'll be honest with you, I was a little bit lost because, you know, to me it was a good job because it gave you some freedom. It gave you some, you know, a variety of things that you could do to pursue. But I still felt like this is not really my passion. But I did have always, I was always intrigued by dogs. And six, seven years in or eight years in, it's still always, you know, dogs, canine training. But, of course, I had one little problem, which was I was afraid of dogs. And that's, yeah, I mean, and I'm not just, actually, I'm not exaggerating a little bit. It actually means a lot. So if a dog would bark and I wouldn't know or I wouldn't expect, I would really jump up. Because I was always told, you know, watch out for the dog. We never had dogs. So I was very cautious of dogs. But I was also intrigued by dogs. So at some point, and I remember, you know, waking up at 5 a.m. in the morning, any day, you know, I don't know. It was summer, I believe, 5 a.m. I wake up and I thought, I think I want to go for it. I want to try the canine unit because the job I was doing, I wasn't really feeling it. And I thought maybe that could be something that I could be passionate for just as for the track and field stuff. And then I went on and I remember saying that same week to my colleagues, hey, guys, you know, I've been contemplating the canine unit. There's only a few positions in a 3,000 people company as a department. Exactly. Yeah. And I remember they're like, all right, we'll ask you a few questions. What, do you have a dog? No. Do you know somebody who has a dog? What are you going to do? Do you know where to train? Do you know something about dogs? And the answer was no, no, no, no. And they're like looking at me and they'll start laughing, right?

And I was like, okay, well, I guess I got some work to do. And then really, I went straight to the computer and I start researching. And not from what most people would do then is contact the colleagues from the canine unit. Hey, guys, my name is Nino. How are you doing? I'd like to come in. I was like, that's not going to work. We're not going to kiss somebody to be sort of speaking. I want you to keep going, Nino. Sorry to interject. Just give me a time reference. What year was this, Ish? This was when I started to think about the canine unit. That was 2003. Got it. When I was contemplating it. So, yeah, that was around that year. Yeah. And then, yeah, I just had to start from scratch. And at some point, I was like, okay, if I want to make this a short-term thing, not like 10 years in, if let's say two years to get to that unit, I might need a dog that's a little bit trained already, right? So, anyways, long story short, I go and pick up a dog of somebody who was also working at the police. He said, I got a nice dog for beginners. Anyways, long story short, I pick him up, put him in the car in the back seat. I didn't have no kennels, no crates, no nothing. So, I was looking in the rear mirror, and then I started feeling, uh-oh, you know, I was afraid of dogs. So, even though the guy said, he's nice, listen, I grabbed the dog with the leash. You know, he had the leash still on. I walk into my house. I look at him in the kitchen because I had to feed him still. And I just looked in the eyes. I said, I can't do it. I felt this fear. No, seriously, I couldn't do it. And I knew, how did I get in this position? How did I mess up? I just bought a dog, and then I said, I got to find a way to return him. And I thought, you know what? I can't look like a complete idiot, so I'll just tell this guy that my girlfriend at that time was afraid of this dog. I'm sorry, man. You know, it's just not going to work. It's me, of course. And then, you know, that trip back, I felt so bad. And then, you know, and then I knew this is over. It's never going to work unless there's only one small chance unless I get a puppy. Maybe I won't be afraid of the puppy. And I assume I wouldn't be afraid of the puppy. And I kind of wasn't afraid of puppies because, you know, they're fluffy and small. And I thought that's the only way. So at that time, at that moment, I started looking for a puppy. And the rest is history, right? So there's so much in there that's of benefit to an up-and-coming person.

And particularly, and I'd love to hear about this, a question I love for people all the time is, give me some of your biggest influences that don't necessarily have to be outside of dog training. Because what I'm hearing, the commonality in your story there, is you rise to pressure. A lot of people don't. And I don't know if you know who Jim Rohn is, is an American author. But he's, I believe it was Jim Rohn who had said that quote, like, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. So I think in a way, you are very lucky to be around these high-level, very precise, very devoted individuals. And I feel like that rubbed off on you to a huge degree. But tell me where you learned some of that stuff. As in the dog training stuff? No, as in your will to make it happen. Yeah, and to rise above the fear. Exactly. That's your subconscious just telling you, you know what, everybody around me is also struggling because they have other bars they want to meet or criteria. And there was no easy way. I never saw anybody cruising, you know, to their Olympic levels or to their limits to get to the world championships or European championships or Belgian championships. It was always rough because I lived, I ate day and night. I slept with these people. And I knew what it was to have a constant diet. So I knew what it was to overcome these adversities and then rise to an occasion where, well, now is your time. Now the spotlight's on. And now is your time to do it. And this is where your control mechanism, as we discussed with Robert, for example, comes into play. But it's all your subconscious, right? Right. So for me to come from an absolute underdog position to where I had to do these exams and be confident about this, I knew there's only one way you can gain confidence, which is gain as much knowledge as possible. So the one asking the questions might not even know as much as you do. So it's not like fake it until you make it because, of course, I wasn't a dog trainer. But there is so much that you can't take in, that you can't study, that you do have to know that will kind of make you feel like an expert. I'll give you an example. These days when people go and buy a TV, there's so much you can look up about this TV. You can walk into the store and basically, you know, know things better than the guy selling the TV. And that's how I think you should see it. You know, like if you really got your mind into something, you shouldn't just like have it happen to you.

You should really be proactive and really dig deep, understand about the bloodlines, understand about the breed, the history, all that kind of stuff. All that adds up into building that confidence to when somebody asks you questions, you know, going to go like, I don't belong here. That's the worst feeling you can have. If you're going into something you had ambitions for, you were passionate about, and then coming in under, how do you call it, underprepared. Yeah, that's right. Underprepared. Yeah, underprepared. Yeah. So you're not prepared. And then, you know, that's going to show. And then people are just going to poke that more. Because, of course, there's many people for that position. So they don't want nobody that's, you know, maybe hesitating himself or doubting himself. So I just, you know, but of course, if you're young, the problem is, you know, you do have doubts. Because you don't have, like, experience. You don't have a history of years in where you've done this before and you know it's going to turn out well. There's always the fear of losing, the fear of not making it and, you know, giving up that dream, which is always a hard thing, you know. I had to give up a dream. Like, I'm not going to be an Olympian. I'm not going to be a professional runner. I'm not going to be like my friends. Yes. So that was already tough. Even though for some people might be obvious, there's only X percent that would make it. Why would you make it? You don't even have that technical skill set. So that already, I tasted what defeat was in that sense of giving up a dream. And I was like, well, you know, I had this in my mind. And I had to be sure it wasn't going to turn out the same way as the track and field stuff. And like I said, at the police, I thought it was a dead end because the stuff I was doing, I didn't enjoy it that much. And I knew I had to focus on something that could really enjoy and love and wake up in the morning and not what time it is that I can come home. Just like going and don't care about it. And just loving the day when you wake up. So that pursuit of understanding that if you want to have a life that is fulfilled with joy and happiness, it evolves around the job that you do. So you have to pursue something you really love. Because I've been in positions where I did a job that I didn't really love. And then you're always watching the clock all the time. You're thinking about, you know, when is my time off? It just, it doesn't work like that because 164 hours in a week, you're working 40 hours, you're in the traffic jam for another 15 hours. That's a lot of time.

So why put it to waste into something, you know, which is precious, your time. But what's even more precious is the energy you have. Because you can have all the time. You need that right energy. And waking up for something you love, that's what we call a passion that fuels your skills, that fuels everything. That's what you got to pursue, the passion. Sometimes I ask my friends, what's your passion? They're like, I don't know. I'm like, oh man, that's got to suck because I wake up with that passion every day. No, seriously. And then I could feel their pain almost as in, they're kind of lost. They just go with the day and see what happens. And I think people really need something. They're like, oh, this could be really great if I could put my energy into this. It'll just show off in your friends, your family, I believe. I have a theory. I just want to get your thoughts on it. So usually when I talk to people or I work with people or I'm teaching young dog trainers things, I'll ask them a question similar. What is your passion? And usually they come back with an answer and that answer is them telling me what they like to do. Oh, my passion is reading. Is it really though? Or is it learning? Or some people will be like, oh, my passion is singing. Is it really singing or is it performing? And so what I'm learning is I'm learning like passions are kind of like these umbrella things that really trigger your intrinsic drive. Passions are like I love helping. I'm a helper by nature since I was small to now. Right. So anything I can do to help is going to tick this box off for me. Right. Or and I love breaking things, concepts down. I've done that ever since I was a little kid. Right. And so like being able to help people localize what their passion is versus what they like to do, because sometimes people get lost. They think I like doing this thing. Therefore, it should be my career. Right. But it's not necessarily what it is. It's I I enjoy certain processes that that that scratch those certain itches of who I am as a person. And that's one thing dog training has done for me. It's obviously done it for you. It's obviously done it for Mariano. And I love the point you were made. So like what are your thoughts on that? Would you agree with that that that definition of passion? Or add something to it? Yes, because what you touch here is actually a very complex thing as when people say this is something I like or this is something that gives me energy or this is something I'm passionate about or something I'm good at. This also does not mean they're talented. Right.

Because talent is a combination of multiple things. But, you know, it's it's good that you touch this because the definition of what it really is like in something or be a passionate about something or be untalented about something. It's not always that the two go together like, oh, I'm so good at this that you love it. No, I'm giving an example that is very relatable. There's some people that are extremely good at analyzing stuff. Well, try what. See what happens if you fill their desk up until the ceiling with stuff they have to analyze all day, every day. They're so good at it. Now they hate it. The energy drops. And all of a sudden your talent, your skill that you're so good at becomes an energy drain. Right. So it's a performance always exists of four things, which is the skills that you own, the passion you have for it, the focus and the discipline. That's what's going to give you a performance. That's as good for an Olympian or a dog trainer or whatever you want to accomplish. It's always going to be a combination of those. It's binary. Because if you lose one, you're never really going to get the great performance. So I think the kids, like you say, first is an assessment of what are their skills and how much passion do they have for these skills? And in what setting can these skills be applied? Now I'll give you an example. Let's say you have somebody with a strong energy, let's say passion, and to do something with dogs. But he is also very highly related to interracial stuff. That means he likes somebody with the same expertise or passion or interests to be with him. Because if he can work somebody with the same interests and the same passions, he rises even better to the occasion. All right. Now listen to this. The worst thing that could happen then is that you isolate this boy or this girl and let him do what he's supposed to love and be passionate about without that significant other person that he wants to interact with to take him to the next level. That's what they also call a talent accelerator. So sometimes it's not just about what you like. It's also creating the circumstances, conditions, so then you can become even better, more efficient. Yeah. And that's not just black and white. It's like you like it or you don't like it. You also have to build a circumstance around it so these people can thrive and can do it long term. Because it's one thing to be passionate about it, you know, about a skill and do it for six months and then say, you know, I'm done with this. You've got to see it long term. You don't want to lose that passion, right?

So it's kind of like having a – so just so I can put it in words I understand. So it's like having a training – like passion's not enough, having a training partner is helpful, and having a training mentor is helpful. Not necessarily. Necessarily. Depending. Explain. Depending on the characteristics of this boy slash girl. Of the individual. Yes, of the individual. Some people will operate better with goals. Let's say you give the kid a goal. You say, hey, an X amount of months, we need to reach this point, and they'll thrive. They'll go, oh, yes, I want to take great responsibility. I want to get there. I'll show you what I can do, whatever it is. And it also can work against them. You give them a time frame of when they have to accomplish things, and all of a sudden, they don't like it anymore. It's like, oh, wait a second here. Or like I said, some people need interaction with other people. So if you deprive them from it, they're actually going to get worse. So you have to understand through testing, through questions, through interacting, and not just making it a, do you like this or do you like that? It has to be a combination of information that you have to gather and then create the situation. And that's what we call talent development assessment, you know, from within, from the inside. Because if you just ask them what you like, you're going to get some answers, but you don't really know how to create the environment for this person to be long-term involved, engaged in this certain aspect. So quick question. Could we recap those four variables that you talked about? Yes, sure. Could you read us them real quick? So for a performance, you need talent. And talent is the combination of skills that you can use and access simultaneously so you can do things better, faster, and more efficient with less effort than somebody else. That is a true definition of talent. So what it is not, it's really important to also know what it is not, right? It is not, I'm good at this, and I love this, and therefore it is my talent. No, talent is a combination of skills that you can use simultaneously, access simultaneously. That allows you to do things better. And also in stressful conditions, because that's the hardest part, is when you are stressed and you have to perform, use all your skills. Some people don't make it then, right? Okay, that's what talent. That's a beautiful definition. I've never heard that definition. That's why I'm writing this shit down. That's awesome. Yeah, it's actually, you know what, this is this misconception because people use the word talent the whole time.

And the problem is that if you use the word talent, it's always this natural gift, right? This natural ability to do something. Well, yes and no, it's only partially true. It's a combination of skills. So what are skills? These are competencies, learned competencies, most of the time. Learned complex competencies that you can combine with other learned complex competencies. And because you can combine them in your subconscious, this allows you to do things better and faster than somebody else. And that is why we speak of talent. But in the common, you know, speech or words that we speak with other people, we tend to use talent as a thing that you have. The overall term. Yes, yes. It's too generalized. It's not in-depth because people have to know then what are these skills you are talking about? How can we define these skills? Yeah. So is skills number two? So it's like talent, skills? So because talent is a combination of skills, that means talent are the skills, right? Got it. Then second, it's not second, it's not like a top four, but the other one is passion because you need energy. Like I said, you can have talents, right? That doesn't mean they give you energy. So you need energy to fuel your talents because you need to keep going, right? And then you have focus and discipline. Love it. And those are pretty self-explanatory. Yeah. Yeah. Discipline. Absolutely. There's so much, you know, about discipline. But you see why it's binary. I'll give you an example. There's a lot of people, and I read it on people's, on dog trainers' feeds, consistent. You got to be consistent. Every day you got to know. It's not true because I've met people at the police that were very consistent. And I'll tell you why. They always showed up in the morning. They were never late. And they always stayed until the evening. And they always did what they had to do. And yet, even after five to 10 years, they were still not looking great with a dog. How do you explain that? So that means consistency is not just a key. That's why it is binary. Yes, you are consistent. But that doesn't mean you're going to get your results just because you are consistent. Not because you wake up in the morning and show up every day for 20 years. You're good at it. We had handlers with 20 years plus experience that look worse than people with two years. So how do you explain that? So he was very consistent for 20 years. So it's a combination. That's why these four factors are more important than just focusing on one, which is, okay, if you're disciplined or if you're consistent, you're going to make it in dog training. No.

It's just one of the things, one of the abilities you need to enable. Yeah. So, yeah. Michael Ellis says, he goes, you know, if you're a results-driven trainer, you won't get too far. If you're a process-driven trainer, which means the process triggers your passion and brings you energy, like those lots of little wins, then you'll go far as a dog trainer if you like the process of dog training. Would you agree with that? No, because it goes against what I just said. Some people need a goal. And I'll give you an example. Let's say Nino. Let's make a talent assessment of Nino. And Nino is, for example, he is, one of his skills are being operational in the field, right? This is one. You have operational, analytics, strategics, and international. Four big talents. All right. Let's say that is one, okay? Now, the second, then, is how can we accelerate this talent? What would Nino need for his operational skills to become even better? And what kind of circumstance flow should he be? All right. I'll give you a few examples. One was he needs to work with other experience or other people that are in the same boat and the same thing. And then when he gets to sit down with them and they can talk and discuss about this, he can become even better. Another one is innovation, right? Another talent is, okay, when he can work to enhance the things that he believes need enhancement, so it needs innovation. If we can have him do that, if we facilitate him to innovate something, okay, that's great. On top of that, do we need a goal for him, right? That's why. Okay, so what you said is a result. Does he want a result? Then, on the other hand, you also have, do we need to make him significant in his appearance and his performance? That means once you've done stuff, do you want recognition? Do you want to have an impact on what is created? Do you want your name out there and that they could say, hey, Nino done this. He's created that. Some people would shy away from that and say, no, no, no, no, no. I work behind the scenes. That's when I work best. Don't mention my name. Just, you know, let me do what I do. What I do, yeah. And some people want that impact, right? They want to be that coach. They want to have impact. So, depending on what your accelerator is, yes, you will thrive in an environment where there is either a time zone or time limit or a certain goal you want to reach. Or you have to work with other people or you have to be able to innovate. You have to be able to strategically use a combination of your operational skills with strategy combined, which then makes you do things better.

So, if I'm operational and I can strategize within this operation how to do things better, you see how all this stuff is important to know. But that's hard to define when you're a kid. That's true. Yeah. And bringing it back. Exactly. Well, I want to learn a little bit about how you learned to define these things. Was it books that you read? Was it people that you surrounded yourself with? Did you have to design this when you were designing your courses? Yeah. So, what happened is I was very into talent development for dogs. So, I was like, hey, what skills do dogs need to understand? How come we can get a great performance out of a dog? When did they become worse? Or how do you create that perfect dog, right, that can perform on any circumstance? I was very focused on the dog. And I made the same mistake that everybody else has over the last decades, I would say. Which is, I was always focusing on the skills for the dog. Now, when I met the professor, Mark the Biscop, he went to one of my seminars and he was watching it. Actually, we first met in a private seminar on a one-on-one. And he said, I'm an ex-Olympian. Which, of course, already triggers my... You're like, all right. Hello. Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. He's an Olympian. So, that's great. And then, I also found out he was the author of a book called Departing with Talent and Passion. He's like, okay, this is great because I love passion and I'm into something that I believe requires talent from your dog and yourself. And then, since he's also a psychologist, he's a mathematician, he made a psychometric tool that talks about... I mean, that helps you define those talents and accelerators and stuff like that. So, he taught me about this and I had an accreditation through his company. So, I was able to make assessments based on the psychometric tool that he built, which is, you know, based on psychology and validated psychology. Not just, you know, talking out of your neck, hot air. No, validated science. So, as you know, validated science is the same as we would talk about Skinner, we would talk about Pavlov, which is validated science. So, our driver's control mechanisms, these are all validated. And the psychometric tool is also scientifically validated through universities. So, it's not just some hocus pocus, this is real stuff and this psychology is what can help you be proactive if you're going into behavioral patterns that will help you, that will actually become your decline of turning into whatever you want it to be. And I thought, it cannot be more interesting than this. Because as a dog trainer, how come some people stagnate?

How come some people never get it? Or how some people quit and some people make it to the top? What's the difference now between the world champion and a passionate enthusiast that wants to get the same thing, but he never makes it? So, what are we actually looking at? And the problem was, we always looked at the dog, the dog. What kind of dog? What kind of props? What kind of food? What kind of jacket? What kind of... Everything, all the tangibles. But we never made a profile on what it would take to become an ultimate champion, for example. What kind of skills are we looking at? Not dog skills. Forget about the dog, because he did it with three different dogs, for example. What it would take? And I thought, here, this is where it becomes really interesting. We've been focusing on one thing only, which was the dog. And of course, it's the handler. Now, everybody would agree. Of course, it's the handler. Well, then when I ask a bunch of professionals and tell me what skills you define as the most important ones to combine, to become better, faster, more efficient than somebody else, it actually becomes very quiet. So, it's not really clear to them, even though they're professionals, what it would take, what kind of skills. And I believe analyzing and assessing these skills and then teaching them is a game changer. Because once you define the skill, then you can finally work on the skill, and then you can start the combination of skills. And before that, you're just luck. You don't know what's going to happen. Maybe you're lucky. Maybe you're not. Maybe you've got a good mentor. Maybe you pick it up subconsciously. And it's too much based on luck, as it is science-based. We always focus on science related to Skinner and Pavlov, the quadrants. Look, people don't always need the quadrants right away. It's a cognitive skill. Understanding everything about Pavlov is very cognitive. But it's not going to help you if they give you that dog, day one. You're like, okay, what did Pavlov say? But Pavlov was not a dog trainer, nor was Skinner. So, although this is very interesting, you've got to look at what is the priority and what you need to do, what you need to understand, and when does it all come together. Because, obviously, a high-level trainer would have and the cognitive skill and the motor skills and the analytical skill. So, you would have a combination of multiple skills. It speaks for itself. But as a young starting dog trainer, you cannot expect this dog trainer to be very cognitive about all the science and then completely freeze paralysis by analysis when he has to do something with his dog.

That's not what you want. And that's what happens the whole time. When I was doing seminars, I met people like, holy crap, they read a lot of books about this stuff. But then the performance was... But their technical skill sucks. Yes. So, how come there's a discrepancy between understanding, knowing the how, but not being able to really put it into... Right, to execute it. ...practice. Yeah. That actually brings up something that I think me and... Or no, maybe it wasn't me and Mariano. It was me and John, another dog trainer friend. And I'll save that subject for a little bit later, but it was pretty much talking about how the industry we live in now, social media, people just need to know theoretically things and they can get followings. But they don't have to show the work necessarily. But I don't want to go down. I want to stay on this particular path because that's a good... Well, here's a path that I think would be very fun to go down. So, I can hear... The book title is Departing with Talent and Passion, right? I can hear, as you talk about it, the influence that this person had, which is amazing. And I'd like to get his name one more time so that we can remind people. Yeah. It's Mark, M-A-R-C, the Biscop. That's a long name, but it's D-E-B-I-S-C-H-O-P. So, yeah, it's a brilliant guy. He's a mathematician. He's had a PhD in mathematics. So, he has a few PhDs. He's a brilliant guy. I've had so much fun with him. And, of course, he's passionate about dogs. Because normally, you are not going to get people of that level come into your world and then give you a one-on-one coaching assistant. Hey, this is how you got to look at things. I mean, these consultants would be unaffordable. You just had the luck that you meet some people at the right time, at the right moment, as a course developer, as a trainer. I mean, that stuff that obviously interested me a lot. So, I was just lucky also to meet him at the right time. Because he said, hey, because he's an IGP trainer. And he said, all of a sudden, he said, I see this guy in my feed or Facebook, whatever. And he's like, oh, that's the way he moves. It's kind of interesting. And he said, I got intrigued. And then he said, I started following you. And I was like, you know what? I got to know. I got to know what he does, where he comes from. I got to know the story. So, he came with that idea. Like, I want to hear your story. Like, how did you even get here? Why are you so different in doing your things, you know, as traditional IGP and stuff? And that's how we got involved. Yeah, that was one thing that really interested me. I come from a dance background.

So, I was a hip-hop dancer for many, many years. And when I see your work, you know, and I see the hits and the hits. And, like, everything is choreographed so beautifully. But how much muscle memory you're just trying to develop. It's almost like a wax-on, wax-off, kind of kata type of style of work. But it's so graceful and so beautiful. And it's very attractive in person and in social media. You know, it's very cool. And it takes work. It takes a lot of hard work. Thank you. But as you know, you know, when you're passionate about something, you don't see it as hard work. It's just like, hey, you like to dance. And dancing is also hard work. You would say physically, you know, it's demanding. You got to put in the choreography. It's repetitious. But something you like. And the question then becomes, how do you start to enjoy something like that? So you got to set something up so it becomes enjoyable. And feeling uncomfortable is not really something people enjoy. So then they shy away from it. And then you go back to traditional stuff, right? But, you know, if you want to have a different result, you got to try something different sometimes. And that's how I thought about things, you know, with dogs also. I come also from traditional clubs. And they would look at me and go, like, what is he doing? And they would ask me, like, why? You're like a Marion in the corner just with your food? Yeah. I was always, you know, very energized because, you know, I like the energy of dogs. And the energy transfer is a real thing. So sometimes that's kind of holistic, you know? Energy transfer with a dog? Yes, energy transfer with a dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If the dog's on a hype, it just hypes me up also. And, you know, that's cool to have that kind of relationship. Can we touch on that? Actually, we need to take a quick commercial break real quick. I was going to say, hang on a second, you guys. We're going to take a quick commercial break. But I think that a great process to kind of transition this into some of the more modern topics in dog training would be, now that we have a full-on, very comprehensive, I think, understanding of how Nino operates and what are the skills and the techniques and the ability to systemize things that make you who you are and make you the teacher that you are, I'd like to get that person's thoughts on some of this stuff that's going on today. So let's take a quick break. And when we get back, we'll dive right back on it. See you soon. Yep. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to Dog Trainers Podcast. You know what's a great way to support this podcast? By becoming a sponsor today.

With sponsoring the podcast, you'll be helping us make this show the best it can be and so much more. From hosting more local events, traveling throughout the country, and connecting with trainers from around the world, ultimately getting you, the listener, more of the content that you love. For more information, please contact us at dogtrainerspodcasts at gmail.com or visit our Instagram page at dogtrainerspodcasts. Thank you, guys. And now back to the show. All right, guys. Again, this is our interview with Nino Drowert, right? That's T-S-K-9. Thanks so much again for your time, Nino. Now, just before we went on break, we were talking about how you operate. What were the big motivators? What were the big influences that kind of make you who you are and what you do and what you've achieved in the dog training space, which is a ton, which is insane. You know, I was just talking right now about your healing styles, the new edition. And, of course, there's all kinds of courses on your guys' site. And, actually, one of the things I really enjoyed was your – there's like an assessment you can take to find out which course is best for you. So we'll dive into all that in a bit. But what I wanted to start with to bring us back was, now that we understand how you operate, now that we understand your ability to systematize and to make sense of things in a very simple way and teach it to others, what are your thoughts on the other view of the world? These days, a lot of people are more, do what feels good. I don't necessarily need to perform at this top level. I don't necessarily need to push my dog to do these things. I just want my dog to enjoy his life, and I don't need to put any pressure on them. Yeah, I think that's everybody's prerogative. Like, you know, this is a free world, and especially the U.S. stands for freedom of speech and freedom of thoughts and doing what you enjoy as long as you don't harm other people or animals. There's laws to prevent that. So if you're still in those boundaries of moving, I think we're all good. It just becomes a little bit of a problem when one person who chooses that path is going to dictate what everybody else's path should be. That's where it gets a little bit polarizing, I believe, because, yes, there is a big, you know, what is it called, R-plus camp and then balance trainers camp, all that kind of stuff. Those words are big in the U.S., not so much here in Europe, but I do follow those threats going on. And, yeah, it's weird, you know, to me, because if I'm not an expert, for example,

in tracking or whatever, then I get people in who are experts and I'll let them speak. It's weird that some people have, like, opinions, but that's fine. You can have opinions. But if you want to push your agenda onto complete communities, if you have zero experience in them, if you've never worked any dogs, if you've not done those jobs, well, why would you be eligible to even have a vote in it then? And we're facing the same issues here when it comes to political agendas being pushed to dog trainers and communities based on what? Emotions and false information. And I am worried a little bit about that. Well, in the U.S., it's also one of those things, the fake news, but it's reality. Sometimes there is fake news and it's not being debunked because they're simply not giving the experts a voice. And the lobbies are so small of the people that are true professionals or craftsmen that they're just, like, collateral damage. Forget about them. The crowd wants this. Let's give them what they want. And I think that's the story, the sad story of dog training is that, you know, in the end, I think a true dog passionate lover never wants to harm a dog. But, you know, if you can work skill, if you have skill, I mean, we talked about skill just before. If you have skills, that's what matters most. Like, are you skilled enough to achieve or to do these things? And if the answer is no, then, of course, you're going to mess up with anything we give you because you're just not qualified. And maybe it's more of a discussion like, you know, what is skilled and how do we qualify people and how do we ensure that the well-being of the dog is always the number one thing that we are concerned about. Because I do understand also that if, like, for example, if you're working for the police, there is that time pressure of you've got to get certified. You've got to make sure that you make it. These are tough dogs, so we'll use corrections if you need to because it's got to be time efficient. And then, yes, there are situations that I believe could be much better approached. But is the solution then to ban stuff? No, because literally you could do still harm without any tools. Everybody knows that. I think 20, 30 years ago, nobody was talking about e-collars and it was all leash. I think if you really want to ban something, I would say take away the power of the leash and then see what happens. So, you know, if you ban the collar, you might as well ban the leash because the collar, e-collar, would be an extension of the stuff you've done with a leash, the techniques you've applied.

So if you want to ban, you've got to be, you know, straightforward and say, let's ban it all. Let's have dogs just run loose. And then you're getting into an environment that is not livable anymore. Of course, nobody wants that. We just recently interviewed Temple Grandin, animal researcher and behaviorist. And she brought up this interesting parallel because most of her work is having to do with cattle farms. And she goes in and she revamps the systems that they use that mistreat cattle. Right. And one of the objectives of, you know, the people who, this is kind of a situation where like good intentions can lead to bad ideas. And then you learn from it. Right. So people wanted to just ban cattle prods, like the electrical sticks that go. And what they realized is in the areas where they banned the use of those, they had to get the cows to move forward somehow. Right. In order to get them to slaughter or get them to move through for vaccinations. And what they ended up doing is actually have ended up having to use more violence, hitting them, breaking their tails. They had to poke them with other things because they technically were not allowed to use the cattle prods anymore. And so a good idea led to even the use of more violence. And so what they realized is they said, we have to have a compromise here. We have to limit the use of the cattle prod because if it's in your hand, you'll use it more often on the cow and versus other methods or tactics. But at the same time, if you don't have it at all, you end up hurting the cow physically in order to get it to move. And so they saw an increased case of broken tails and injured cows and all those things when they got rid of the use. So I think I just bring that point up to kind of talk about how good intentions can lead to bad ideas that develop other problems in other scenarios. I would argue that it's not even necessarily a good intention, though. One thing, I don't know if you remember this, Nino, the first time you and I spoke, it was like on an Instagram call or something or a Zoom call. It was like a year ago. And one of the things that you and I talked about, it was a conversation I enjoyed very much, was there's a difference between natural evolution and people just getting better at dog training, which has been happening obviously over the past, you know, however many years, 50, 60 years, versus trying to simulate evolution, which never seems to quite work out through legislation. And the point I think you made quite well with Denise was, you know, she was making what I thought were at least more reasonable middle ground points.

Like, well, what if we kind of have it so that there is some system where you have to show a certain set of competency with the tool before you can purchase it? And that I think is, like, I get that thought process. I'm not, like, I can vibe with that to an extent. But then your question, which was a great one, was like, okay, who sets the test? Who decides what's what? That's my problem, right? Is these people who you don't know, you've never met, they're faceless, they're nameless, and they're the ones deciding what you know and what you're capable to have access to. Yeah, I'm still surprised that this day and age, a device that becomes so sophisticated, that there's apps, there's, you know, Bluetooth, there's, you know, so many options to have it exactly on the moderate level that you need it to, so you can use all the skill that you have, that you've earned, that this is questioned. Because, you know, at this day and age, everything you pick up could kill somebody, or you can have, you know, you can go on a rampage with it. And, you know, this conversation that happens over and over again, I was like, okay, well, how, why are we even having this discussion, to be honest? Because, you know, it's so obvious, I think, that if you don't have skill, don't touch it. Like, if you would ask me, what about that cattle stick? I don't know, I've never had the problem of putting a cow into a, you know, a place where I, I don't know what to do, and why would I have an opinion about this? It's so weird, everybody, you know, since social media, everybody knows something, about anything. And then you get these conversations with people that are, you know, with it, I would almost call it a fixed mindset, you know, because fixed mindset basically means, if you're being critiqued, that means you're, you know, you're not an expert anymore, and you could be exposed or whatever. So we just had to fight that instead of thinking with common sense and say, okay, well, what is the main objective here? The main objective is to train dogs. We both want to train dogs, all right? So what kind of skill level do you have to then get me those results that I need in a, you know, in a realistic way, as in time and, you know, resources, and to get a result and also ensure that nobody's going to get hurt, right? There's safety, there's so many things. How are you going to get that? And if they can't come up with those answers, this discussion is closed, to be honest, because it's one thing to critique somebody and not give the solution. But if you critique, then give the solution. I mean, that's how it works.

So, and there's no solution. Everything that I hear of all these trainers, they always say the same. Have you trained police dogs? Have you trained high drive dogs? Have you trained problem dogs, behavioral? Yes, a little bit. But have you trained dogs to the extent where the drive is so high that it's almost impossible to communicate from a distance, et cetera, and you're dealing with the, you know, the most powerful animals that we've bred, that we've domesticated ourselves. Do we have to kill them all or do we're going to train them? Because I give you an example. It's one thing to tweet as a minister of domestic affairs and say, hey, Belgium, we got the Malinois that just apprehended Osama bin Laden's, you know, number two. And then the same guy a few months later says, well, we're going to have to ban tools, but that's how these dogs were trained in the first place, man. You don't know anything. So, and if you don't know anything, it's not your place. So that's what I do. So it's an interesting point that you make about potential fallout. And I want to get your thoughts on this. You agree or disagree. It's all good either way. So I would argue their intention as in like their proposed solution, I guess I should say, is there. They just don't often say it. For example, is it merely coincidence or was it part of the plan that every one of these countries that every one of these force-free trainers constantly posts about, you know, oh, France just did this. Well, here's a long list one more time of blah, blah, blah. And they always post that list of like 13, 14 countries that have banned tools. I believe every single one of them also bans breeds. I believe every single one of them also has like more restrictions in other forms regarding dogs, which means at some point, unless I'm mistaken, if they're banning breeds, that would tell me once upon a time there was that breed in there, which what happened to all those dogs. So it seems to me that their overall solution is like in order to make this work, there has to be kind of this like mass cleansing of dogs that are not able to be worked with a certain set of tools. And, oh, there's just something wrong with that dog then. Right. So they are aware of it. And I've pointed it out to a few trainers who wouldn't be willing to be on the podcast, but even once you pull it out of them, they'll even say it. But they don't tend to say it publicly. But I do think that they know what their solution, their proposed solution is. To kill them. Because there's kind of no way around it. To kill them, yeah. Just kill them. Yeah.

Kill all the untrainable dogs or the difficult dogs. That's the... That's the first step to getting what you want, right? So, and then the objective is insanely inhuman almost, right? Because they could be trained perfectly without any abuse also. So, it's just, you know, the fact that our minister here in this country says, listen to this, the practices, because there's a ban coming here also, the practices of unsadaced slaughtering, for example. I don't know if you guys have that, right? It's... Unsedated, you said? Yeah, unsadated. Unsedated slaughtering. Oh, killing a dog. Killing a dog without... No, sheep, like cattle. Oh, sheep. Yeah, they would just like cut their throats forever. Yeah. Yeah, slice them. Yeah. These are all practices that need to be banned. So, it's e-collar. So, they put them in the same sentence even. Wow. Yeah. So, and then I'm asking myself, okay, so, but your whole army police, you know, they're using this. So, you're just saying like, you get a five-year, just keep doing what you're doing, guys. The same old practices, killing dogs almost. But that's all right. And then on the same thing, and the same minister, how do you call it? You know, they have to turn this in English, right? Yeah. Is it like a bill or a law? The new law, right? You have to get the new law in place. It says that e-collar fencing is allowed. And that's when it started to get to me. I was like, oh, wait a second here. E-collar fencing is allowed, not because you want to allow it, because you don't want the hassle of then having the discussion and cattle with e-fences, right, all over the country. And now, because that, I mean, if you think about it, okay, e-collar fence is allowed. E-collar training is not allowed. I mean, how is that not the same thing? You know what their statement is? It says literally, the dog has a choice with the e-collar fence. Well, that's the whole foundation of dog training. Yeah, yeah, give them a choice. They have a choice. And by training, they make the right choices. I mean, this is crazy. But why are we having a discussion with a minister who is obviously biased through the people that have influenced him the most, or he wants to vote? It's kind of like, you know, you guys had Trump in the US, and at some certain tactics, he has become politically very successful. And it has multiplied and copied itself, these strategies, and other countries also, and other parties that go with the same, you know, way of talking. And, you know, and something works for politicians. Meaning they've been emulating Trump?

Not Trump specifically, but I'm just saying, like, when a politician, let's say in whatever country they first had the first ban, and that works, as in they get votes, because look, hey, look what I did. I banned this. Oh. Oh. That's what works. And that's the collateral damage to just a handful of professionals and just some people that, ah, we don't really care about. But it gives us that many votes. If you go that way, all right, let's do it. So what I'm trying to say is if something really works, I mean, politicians are not stupid. They're going to know, and they're going to see in the landscape, okay, what can politicians do that have them become more popular, get more votes with little things, right? If you would say, hey, reform the whole educational system, that's something else. That's going to cost you a lot of money, a lot of work, a lot of research. I mean, it's insane, right? But of course, if you can get a lot of votes, hundreds and thousands of people, because, hey, we're just banning old practice, frying dogs. That's not what you're supposed to do. Yes. Man, this guy, I know, I'm going to vote for this guy. You see, so I think it's more of an electoral thing than it actually is, because these people are smart, you know? You're not going to tell me this minister is as stupid as the stuff that he just wrote. Yeah, it's impossible. Of course. I mean, you don't get to be a minister. I know that people love, especially in America, I'm sure it's the same anywhere, but especially in America, people love to hate them some politicians, depending on what side of whatever, you know, spectrum. Sorry, two seconds. But, sorry. So people love to hate politicians, but yeah, you don't get to the position that you're in not being smart. So I agree with that. I think that there tends to be, and that was kind of one of the points that I get annoyed with in dog training and people proposing banning tools, because choosing not to use it is one thing. That's perfectly reasonable. Nobody says you have to. But telling someone else who knows how to work it, who knows how to teach it, who gets amazing results out of it, that they no longer are able, that's a totally different thing. And one thing I'm constantly just blown away by people is, haven't we all seen enough yet? This isn't even a political thing. I don't care what side you're on. Haven't we all seen enough yet of government officials from either side doing things they shouldn't do? At what point do you stop giving them more and more and more ability to dictate what you can and can't do? Clearly, they don't even follow their own rules.

Clearly, they don't even care to learn about what they're speaking about. The prime minister doesn't even know how dog training works. He doesn't think that an e-caller gives a dog an opportunity to make a decision. So, you know, and again, I know that they're not dumb. And peeps probably may even know better for all I know, but they just kind of placate people who, you know, like I would imagine the whole thing with allowing e-fences. Probably just farming is too important to Belgium's economy and they can't afford to not have their dogs, like their herding dogs and their herds, you know, so he kind of has no option there. That's hypocrisy. Of course. Because if you shut the door, if you say e-collar fencing is abuse, wait a second here. Did you say an e-fence is abuse? How is this horse then less than a dog? How is the sheep less than a dog? Oh yeah, guys, we got something. All right. So now you're getting in trouble. So they have to concede, I assume, right? You know, and by doing that, they basically become hypocrites because who puts the collar on the dog? It's still a person. Who puts that post in the ground that's going to give this dog shocks, right? Because that's what they say. It's cruel, but we still want it. In the right circumstance, fry him, right? So, and then they say, but the dog has a choice. Well, then you don't know anything about dog training to start with. And first of all, a human has to teach this dog. There is a fence. You just want this dog to go into an invisible fence and then you get shocks. And then again, this is where it becomes actually an aversive tool then, right? Because then he sees the boundaries as something. I got to stay away from this. As where I, for example, use collars is it gives me more speed. It gives you communication. It gives you the details of all the work you've done, for example, could be magnified by this collar. But you never want the cons, right? Because everything can have pros and cons if you only work with food and then you don't have food. The dog's also going to go, well, then the hell with you. So everything has pros and cons. So you have to assess. You have to analyze. You have to use all these skills that I've talked about to then see how can I use this tool that is so advanced today in comparison to 30, 40 years ago to have this dog perform even better, right? And being blind to that this day and age where there's so much information to me is crazy because I don't like the pro cam. If you would ask me, are you pro e-collar or against e-collar where you obviously use when you're pro? No. I would actually always say, are you competent? Okay.

Then what does competent mean? Do you, can you work dogs in general? Without, let's say, no tools, whatever. Do you know how to move? Do you know how to use your hands? Do you know how to fade? You know, there's a set of skills that belongs to dog training. And if the answer is no to all of them or the majority, why would I give something to you that's only going to make it harder now? Because you don't even own the three, you know, basic foundational skills, for example, yet you're going to add something on top of it. And that's what I see all the time. But new trainers, what they do is not even callers, e-collars. They work a clicker. They work a leash. They work voice commands. And they work lures and movement. That is a, that is a, you know, a multitask you're doing from day one. And you don't know any of these skills before. How do you even think that's going to work well? So you're just basing yourself on the probability of luck that maybe the dog will pick it up and I'll be efficient with these commands. And at some point in a dog's life, he will understand what I mean and he'll just listen. I agree with you. I agree with you 100%. But I think at least the way I take it, whenever somebody were to ask, are you pro e-caller? Are you pro whatever? I assume, maybe this is wrong of me, but I assume that they mean, are you pro the access to this tool? Because I would think the normal healthy assumption for any smart person would be, you know how to use it, right? Right. So if somebody asked me like, Hey, are you pro e-caller? I take it as, do you think that people should have access to e-callers? And I would say, yes. Right. Again, you should know what you're doing, obviously. And the dog should know what they're doing and be ready for this level of training and this type of training. Yes, of course. But that's kind of how I like surmise it. And in American, anything, anything like yes, no based like this, that's kind of how they do it in a nutshell. Like, Hey, are you pro this? And I know it's a complex discussion, but it's more like, do you think ultimately do I fall on this side versus that? Then the answer is yes. Um, one thing I wanted to delineate a little bit, we've had a couple of force-free friends and we've had Denise on the show twice and we've had Sarah Bruschi who is an amazing force-free trainer. And I think she was one of Denise's students back in the day. And she works now, I want to say for like pedigree in their arena in, uh, uh, I want to say in Missouri, something like that. Um, she does that. We've had them on sports too. That's what I'm saying, right?

So, so we've had them on and we've had great conversations and your live with Denise was fascinating and her points were, I think more reasonable. And again, your counter arguments were more, more reasonable just for all, all that you really had to do to, to win me over on that whole thing was just give a healthy dose of skepticism as to who gets to make the call. Right. If you're going to have to qualify for this tool, who qualifies you? Who's in charge of this? Can do, do the people who know how to use these tools and work these tools, do they get a say in who qualifies? Probably not. So why would I trust this qualification process? Right. So that was a good point. That being said, Denise and Sarah, they're force-free trainers, but every time I've spoken with them, they don't necessarily seem to be pro band. And I delineate someone who chooses not to utilize tools versus someone who thinks you shouldn't have one. And we've been having, as the podcast, an extremely difficult time getting somebody on to speak about their pro band position. Have you had any luck with that? No, it's hard to defend it. That's the reason. Because at the police in the early days, I was one of the people that would say, hey, I use it. And back then it was, you were not supposed to use it. And they would have these debates, but behind closed doors, right? As soon as you would call them out on the spot and say, hey, well, then what are the alternatives, et cetera, it would be very quiet. So I think it's hard to defend something that you actually know is going to also exclude people like professionals, dogs that have been saved by this tool. People like Robert who have done phenomenal jobs in the shelter. They've given dogs a second life because of their skills and these tools and their knowledge. I mean, you can't just shove that under the rug and say, I am pro animals. But yet, you know, you dismiss the fact that there is very skilled people and the tool has also done a lot of things. But it seems like you can. It's working. Like you shouldn't be able to shove it under the rug. But that's the only tactic they seem to have. I never see anyone come to the table and have this discussion. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why, because, you know, if you speak with common sense, I mean, I think you could find somebody, if you would just try to find anyone, anyone could come on your show and say, I'm against this. But he wouldn't make sense. So you're looking for somebody that can make sense in his discussion, in his speech, in his convention of what it is.

And I think that is hard, because once they start talking and then thinking and then say, well, yes. Because you can't say, for example, if you say the most important job in the world is Navy SEAL police or Navy SEAL Special Forces dog, you actually apprehend terrorists with a dog. All right. That's great. Some people also think that is cruelty, because a dog is being used for modern warfare. So, I mean, that, okay, then you can discuss, is it cruel? Well, anyways, you see, but let's assume that we're okay with special forces doing what they do. I assume that everybody should be okay with that, because, I mean, they protect our freedom and our existence, so our democracy and everything. But then these people are truly professionals, very skilled people. They bring in the best people. They want to make, ensure that the probability, the chances of doing high-risk operations go to a good end. And I think it would be unfair, then, for a human to say, or somebody else to say, hey, you know what? Ban you, too. You know? F you. Whatever you do. No. You're done with this. I'm going to decide. You don't get to use it anymore. And your operation might have higher risk, then, of being successful, because I told you to not use it. You probably won't hear that out of somebody's mouth. It's going to be hard to have them actually say that. But you are saying that. So the solution becomes clear. We have to send Zach George to go get the next Bin Laden. That makes total sense. So, no, I'm only picking on Zach because as a trainer and as a modern trainer, you know, with how important social media content is and all that kind of stuff, and I wanted to talk a bit more about your online school and all that good stuff, and writing books and everything that trainers do. Like, Larry, I know your friends, and I know he's written his book, and that's been successful. I've always been a fan of Zach George's content, meaning the stage presence, how sharp, how polished, you know, X, Y, Z. But, of course, he's pro-band and, you know, what have you. And I'm picking on him a little bit because I've done this privately. I've emailed him. I've messaged him. I've commented to try to get him on the show to discuss. And only because he has been posting a lot lately. I just saw a post from him yesterday. He's been posting a lot lately. YouTube, Instagram, whatever. Guys, I'd really love to know. Like, he's posting this tool versus no tool, like, as a conversation starter. And he's like, please comment. Please tell us. I really want to know. I really want to know more. I really want to have this discussion. And I'm like, okay, let's do it.

And I'm reaching out over and over. So, it's getting to the point where it's like, if I need to say on the show, like, look, we've been reaching out. I'd love to have you on. Let's talk about this. But I don't, in my opinion, you don't get to sidestep conversation while actively saying you want to have the conversation. That's unreasonable to me. Yeah. Right. But the whole thing is unreasonable, really. No, I agree with you 100%. But, you know, but again, if somebody's going to specifically say, I want to have this discussion, here we are. So, you know, I just wanted to make sure that that was clear. But no, I agree with you. It's weird how people have these expectations. Or maybe it's lack of gratitude. Maybe it's lack of understanding. I don't know. All the things that are special forces, that are militaries, that are police, you know, even that sport dog and just pet obedience trainers and things have to do to, you know, to give dogs a chance at life, to give us a chance at what we want, to continue the type of freedoms that we have, which sometimes means you have to go after somebody like a bin Laden. They either don't know or don't care and think that that stuff just doesn't have to happen, I suppose. Yeah. But if you look at the essence, the true essence of why they're so opposed to it, because they always have to try to see, okay, why do these people feel that way, right? Because you can't just be a version and say, yeah. So, why is it that you have such anger towards the people that use it or you're so confident that it should be banned? And I think, okay, I think what they feel is dogs should not be hurt, all right? And I think that kind of thinking pattern already gets you on the wrong track, because then you believe that pain and hurt is part of that tool and that training. And then, yeah, you try to imagine the story then what more could happen and how you can prevent that by installing a ban. And actually, it has nothing to do with that. So, and I think that's the emotion that comes out of you thinking that you could do that to a dog with an e-collar. And you can. I mean, if we're honest, if you put that thing on the max and you have a dog in low drive and just going to push buttons, I mean, that's exactly what's going to happen. So, in that regard, it probably has happened at some place at some time. But again, I've been a police officer and the stats are about abuse because we were also involved in animal abuse. It's crazy that there's so much abuse, but it has nothing to do with an e-collar.

All the abuse was really neglecting dogs, kicking dogs, severe aggression towards dogs, but nothing to do with some device that was designed to train a dog, actually. So, the stats actually speak against them because they're all already laws for cruelty and the convictions and abuse. You know, you saw that guy last week throwing his dog over the fence, abandoning him. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Power plant. It was nuts. So, and those are the cases you see. It's not the guy that wants to become better in his dog training or be sufficient at it. So, it is this whole misconception of, you know, how they portray this tool that it becomes something they want to go against. And I think because there's so many people that also are in the same realm of, hey, dogs or emotions or family, you're not going to put collars on family and stuff like that. So, you kind of humanize everything and then you get these kind of polarizations. But it's an endless discussion, right? Because it's not our right to tell you how you need to feel. And you feel you're in a privileged position because we are associated then with pain and with pressure and with abuse. And then, of course, they stigmatize you as, oh, you're an e-collar user. You belong in that bracket. And then the discussion is endless because then you're trying to talk your way out of it and convince somebody who doesn't want to hear what you have to say because the mindset is still the same. E-collar is pain. You are bad. And as long as that first trigger response exists of pain, discomfort and high discomfort because actually there's nothing wrong with discomfort. I mean, we tell people the whole time. If you look at a podcast on YouTube, you got to go out of your comfort zone, right? You got to do the discomfort. I mean, it's everybody's, you know. The principles of growth are pressure, be uncomfortable, get out of your comfort zone. Yeah. But I think we've all heard the whole thing. Pressure makes diamonds. Yeah, there you go. Exactly. And not to discount that we can't misuse a tool or apply too much pressure or apply pain, right? Like even people can overdo it with like the gym, right? So like just moderation, better technique, all that stuff. Yeah. That's why my definition of a pure positive trainer, if you wear a leash, things are also going to happen. Because if you have a leash and the dog all of a sudden takes off, he's popping himself into the leash. Yeah. Basically, that is a correction. And that dog was in discomfort. And that dog wanted to be free, but it was not free. And then all of a sudden, then we can also ask. Now it's oppression. And it's... Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, hey, that's impossible. You can't be a saint. And then... Yeah. You can't have a perfect, pretty picture about that all the time. Can I get your thoughts on this, Nino? So whenever I hear people make this argument online, it's always like, there are people who use tools, who use punishment, who use torturous, outdated, primitive methods versus science-based dog training. The word science-based, yeah. Well, just at what point... I mean, because if we want to talk science-based, we know that negative emotion is an extremely powerful call to action. Meaning, people tend to conflate two things. And your ability to itemize things... That's why I was so fascinated in the beginning when we started talking, was I feel like people's ultimate conflation, or one of them anyway, is they think any sort of pressure, any sort of aversive sensation to the dog is automatically torturous, pointless, isn't going to teach anything, isn't going to help anything. When we do know for sure, sometimes in life, you learn a lot from what you could classify as a negative experience. I get pulled over, I get a really expensive ticket. I don't speed. You know what I mean? So there are benefits to this stuff. And I don't hear lots of trainers even just touch on that. But they all say, like, science-based, science-based, that's probably one of the most studied scientific things that we know of. If you feel something uncomfortable, it motivates you to make change. Talking of science, I was very disappointed when we were talking to one of the professors, high-level professors here that have done publications for e-collars and stuff. And they've done a lot of testing. And the result was dogs are stressed, tools should be banned, blah, blah, blah. All right, so there's only one, me and the professor, we asked them a few questions. We said, okay, can you give us a little bit about the benchmark you've done on these tests? All right, there were all shepherds, X, Y, Z, between this and this age. There were all certified police dogs, and that many. Okay, but you do know that the dog is always a subject of who he was trained by. So can we please look into the data of the people that trained him? It's like, what data? Well, the data of the skills they possessed, the combination of skills, the efficiency, and the experience of the trainer. So all that kind of stuff, right? And then all of a sudden, there's no data, like zero data. Just silence. Yeah. Just silence. Well, you're just assuming then that all these people that have trained these dogs are talented. They all have these skills. They all have these efficiencies.

That's impossible. That's impossible. Yet, everybody knows that a dog can only do things that you've taught him. He's not going to wake up and be a police dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what kind of a benchmark is that? So if you can't define what got this dog there in the first place, what are you talking about? Like, yeah, I don't care if it's stressed or not. I mean, we haven't heard the story behind it. You know? And if you haven't, well, then what are you going to measure? What is there to measure? You need to... It's silly. It's a silly argument. You need the data. You need that data. Profiling. So I profile the handler. What does a handler look like who is very talented, very skilled, and very unlikely to get these negative side effects of his training? Mm-hmm. None. None. None. So, I mean, a world champion in any sport without any pressure. I mean, it's protection sports I'm talking, and you know a little bit in my world. I don't know any. There's always, like, and by pressure, I mean discomfort, right? A little bit of discomfort if you go too much in that way or too much that way. So there's always a little bit of discomfort involved. So I don't get it, really. Well, I read something just the other day that said, it was from a trainer who was pro-banning of tools, and it was like a series of posts. You can swipe through them on Instagram, and it was, instead of asking a force-free trainer if they can achieve, and then it, like, left a blank right there, you know, without the use of tools, and then you swipe over. We should instead be asking, why do we even glorify types of training and types of sport that require, you know, whatever torture, you know, whatever the pejoratives is for training tools, just to do this sport? You know, like, basically saying, why do we just not stop doing these sports altogether? Yeah. So is that as a question? Well, that was, I just want to get your thoughts on their question. You know, their view of it is like, well, I mean, if, you know, instead of trying to compare me to this trainer who utilizes tools, why do we even do these sports at all? Yeah. Well, then we go back to, why do you assume that dog training sports is cruelty or is using tools in an aversive way, that we can avoid that by banning the sport? All right. Let's then forget about the sport. You own a dog. Have you owned a dog without a leash day one till the day he died? That's a yes or no question. If the answer is yes. All right. Now we have a debate. Then the person that has done this. All right.

Show me, show me all the skills it took from you to control this animal in any circumstance, in any level of drive anywhere. And you got successful at it. Okay. Without ever having a dog in discomfort. Okay. Very unlikely. So then we go back to the scenario. Why do we even have dogs? Can we live without dogs? Do dogs really do jobs today that we can't do without? Okay. Then we have to look at police, narcotics. Can you not find narcotics without? Yes, you can find narcotics without dogs also. Right? You can find whole containers with drugs without dogs also. All right. So do you need them at rights? Do you need them at special forces? Can't you just shoot Osama bin Laden instead of sending a dog? You see? So then everything actually goes back to the core question is why are their dogs domesticated? Shouldn't they be free and back into the wild? Set free? Like instead of let's reverse domestication. You create a dog. You deprive it from its freedom. Dog wants to control his freedom himself. By instinct, he says, I control where I want to go. But he can't. Okay. So you could also see that as mental abuse. You create the dog. What are you doing? You put him in a kennel. He wants to be free. All right. Let him eat. He wants to eat. Let him eat. He wants to engage. Let him engage. Okay. So then stop talking about domestication. Then set it all free. All right. And then you're right. Then I think you are right. But if you truly believe that you can own a dog and never have this dog feel any discomfort. Oh my God. We need you on your own podcast. We need you on a national TV. And teach everyone how. Exactly. And rightfully so. Because if that person exists, they need to have a platform. And that's why I invited Emmanuela. Because don't forget, I have a positive only class. But the first thing I asked the person that collaborated with me doing this is that you have the lead in this class. But did you ever use a leash? Because if it's a leash to me, then we go into that same discussion. Then to me, it's the same. Never use a leash. I need to see this. Now I need to. So I need to find out how you got in this position with this type of high drive dog to do these many things. All right. And that skill set is what we show in the positive only class. But I'm not a hypocrite. I'm not saying, hey, guys, never want to use tools. Never want to use a leash. Do this. It's actually more of a behind the scene. What would it take for somebody? What kind of skills are you looking at then? Because using a tool is also a skill. All right. So let's forget about those skills. What would somebody do like Emanuela who can achieve results without using any tools?

Then we need to know more about this. And that's why I was so happy about this class that I could do this. Because it's truly one of my interests. It's not just how to use tools better or how to be more efficient. It's also, well, then, yeah, what kind of natural skills also? Because tools are tools that people may. So if there's no tools, if there's not even a wall, a prop, nothing. What would you do? How would you move? How would you communicate with this dog? It just goes back to this natural dogmanship almost. And it's really beautiful to see. And I think, because then I ask Emanuela, Emanuela, you're a phenomenal trainer, truly one of the best in the world I have ever seen. What do you do if you get an aggressive dog and you're, well, she doesn't have a kennel. She has like a place where they train dogs. Behavioral issues. Well, then I take a leash. Of course. It makes sense, right? Because, you know, you don't know this dog. This dog's all over the place. The dog might have issues. You take a leash. No problem. So it's just something that you want to experiment in. You want to do. You want to train. You want to see how much you can conquer without using. Using all the skills you have at the same time and get this outcome. Great. But first of all, everybody's skills are different, right? We talked about that. Everybody's combination of skills are different. And also, the fact that she also uses a leash. And although by the core, she is a positive only trainer, but she does use a leash when leashes are needed. That just tells you that from the heart, this person cannot be better as wanting to have the best life for the dog. And she'll also use a leash. So with these intentions, that means I know when she uses a leash, she's not going to hang the dog. She's not going to pull the dog. She's going to use it for safety. She's going to use it with skill, with subtlety, with, you know, her touch and her same energy she used for the positive only. It's just not an add-on to help her, you know, overcome this problem, right? So, and then also, I would also ask like, hey, Manuela, but do you think you could do it with my dog, for example, in these circumstances? And I think that's a fair question, because if you say, I have conquered this, and I've gotten my results, then the next question is, can you generalize that with all dogs in any circumstance, in any job, on any level? And that's also a different story, you see? So you got to look at things for what they are. And that is, I can learn so much from somebody that can do all this, but it's not the holy grail, nor am I the holy grail, nor is anybody else.

And it's your combination of unique skills that will define your talent, and how qualified you are, and how good you are with training dogs. Well, and one thing that I, this was a perfect kind of pivot into what I wanted to ask you about, because something that you said earlier, when you were quantifying, you know, what it takes to be successful, you know, you said it, it wasn't the direct word, but you were saying like, the ability to be resilient, the ability to adapt, if you can't do this with several dogs over and over again, really, how useful are you, right, outside of your one dog? So the one thing I wanted to ask you about, something that we've been talking about lately with, we did with Michael Ellis and Denise Fensi, and then we did with a few friends. Also, we got to take another commercial break. So ask your question. Yep. Samantha Johnson, Vinny Soma, John got it. We all were talking about genetics in dogs. And I noticed one of the really interesting things that you brought up early on in the Healing Styles course with that puppy you were working with was, you know, you were telling, I think, a story of a dog where the dog itself was very talented. So we'll take a quick commercial break. When we get back, I'd love to hear, I'd love to hear your, you know, your thoughts on genetics, the role they play in dog training, talent levels that dogs do possess, and how that affects trainers who don't necessarily agree with it. There are trainers out there that don't think that that's a thing, you know? So we'll touch on that right after this break. All right. Cool. Hey, guys. Thank you so much for listening to Dog Trainers Podcast. You know what's a great way to support this podcast? By becoming a sponsor today. With sponsoring the podcast, you'll be helping us make this show the best it can be and so much more. From hosting more local events, traveling throughout the country, and connecting with trainers from around the world, ultimately getting you, the listener, more of the content that you love. For more information, please contact us at dogtrainerspodcasts at gmail.com or visit our Instagram page at dogtrainerspodcasts. Thank you, guys. And now back to the show. Thanks again so much for listening, guys. We're vastly enjoying our interview with Nino Trovert from STSK9. This has been an absolute blast. And I know it's getting late for you out there. So we'll wrap it up pretty quick here. But I wanted to ask, just before the break we were talking about, the concept of genetics in dogs. I notice people who do more sport and who are more in the very technical, precise, like

high-level workflow of dog training and teachers of trainers, they seem to have a very strong understanding and respect for genetics of dogs. And something that you were saying in the Healing Styles New Edition video that I do recommend people buy it was awesome. And there's a coupon code out right now. So you were talking about talent levels in dogs. And I would love to hear your thoughts on that because I'm sure you're aware that there are people out there who don't think that genetics plays into a dog's behavior at all. That they think any dog with any host of issues currently can become the perfect daycare dog. And you can fix this and you can fix that. So please give us your thoughts on that. Yeah, that's a big topic, you know, genetics and dogs. It all starts with name any breed. And in this breed, you can find the spectrum is so wide. You can find the most, you know, unique specimen that can combine so many skills on the highest level when the pressure is on again, like we've talked about this previously. But on the other end, you will find the opposite. Yet there are the same breed. There are the same breed standards, breeding standards. So they look the same. They should be the same, but they're totally different. So and that's how it is. You know, every animal, just as any human has unique set of skills that they combine. And some dogs learn fast. Some dogs do not. Some dogs are skittish. Skittish or fear is a nullifier of all talents. In any circumstance, same for people, like if you're in fear, there's no way you can use all the complex skills you've ever learned about some topic or you've applied previously if you are in complete fear as you go into that fear and fight and flight. So that said, you know, the capacity to work with dogs, to develop these dogs is highly depending on what pool of genetics you are working with. And just as it goes for pet dogs, you know, there's, you know, the more dogs you have with certain traits, you know, you're going to get more of those and those, right? Because it's, I actually had a great discussion with somebody who's also thinking about genetics. There was a time for working dogs that they truly believe that champion and champion and champion and champion is going to create the ultimate breed of dogs that are all unbelievably talented and gifted to do this. And you know what happened? Champion and champion and champion, it all became mediocre. How do you explain that? How do you explain that champion and champion and champion, all champions, great dogs, and the result, the offspring was mediocre.

So come to the, the, the, the backfall was so high that you went from champion status to, you know, unbelievably skilled on any, any area in any area to all mediocre letters. So, and that's because traits, if you do out crosses, for example, there cannot be guaranteed because the whole genetic pool of the mom and the whole genetic, they're so far apart that when they mix, you can have the worst traits and the worst traits of both, right? And when they started doing line breeding, they were focusing more on strengths. And then of course you're going to get, because the litter is usually more than one dog, right? There's multiple dogs. And then they would do, they would select on the dogs that show the best traits. Yeah. The best combination of the strengths they already possessed. And that's how they literally in the working dog pool genes, they started to, to see patterns and they started breeding with, you know, genetically superior dogs and, and, and so on. And yeah. And that's how they created this ultimate working dog that could do so many things now. You know, it's incredible how it has evolved, but it wasn't overnight. It was decades and decades. And it was a lot of experimenting also. You have to understand. So there was a lot of dogs that didn't make the cut. And I think in pet breeds, what they call show, show was a big influence. Was it the right color? Was it the right size? Was this dog too big? As in working dogs, I didn't care about that too much. If the dog was a little bit too big, if the nose was too short, all of that, it was about the characteristics, the traits that would possess to perform, right? So it was very performance-based as we're pets is very companion-based. So you would be looking at two opposites almost like we want calm. The other one, high energy, right? We want beautiful. So, because beautiful is, it's nice. You want beautiful things. The other would go with, but ugly, but, you know, a beast performance, you know, game. You see? So, and that's how things got separated a little bit. And that's why you have show line, even though they're the same, and you have working line, right? And then you have, for example, the KNPV, who does it across with, you know, everything you can imagine. And then you have FCI, who says, no, we don't recognize any other organizations, only these. Then you have another organization like the NVBK, for example, if you're talking about Malinois, that, you know, recognize multiple organizations, but do have a breed standard, right? So there's so many things to examine. Like, it really would take you a lot of time to get into all this stuff.

So, and it's very important because there are significant things that you can recognize from line to line to line, all these generations following up with some standards that they kept alive. And it would be wiseful if some of you guys are looking for a dog, that you do the research on what it is you are really looking for and what lines have these. And then still, you have to, you know, it's not math, exact math. So still, you would have to see if that outcome is happening for you. But at least those chances are higher than just go, I need this breed. Oh, where are the Malinois breeders? Where are the German Shepherd breeders? Where are the XYZ breeders? No, you really have to do your due diligence, I'd say, and really do research and talk to the breeders and see, you know, what they have found very important to use as assets in their program and stuff like that. So, and that's how you create a match because matchmaking is hugely underestimated, especially for pet dog owners. What do you want? Like, who are you from the inside? Right. And what kind of match are you looking for in that energy transfer? What do you want from a dog? And what can this dog expect from you and your energy and what you bring? Because you have to elevate this dog to become the best pet, best possible pet. But then also, how can this pet become a plus in your life and not a stress factor and not a nuisance? So, and this matchmaking is hugely underestimated because of lack and knowledge of genes, of traits, of characteristics and within the breed also understanding that you can have a Jack Russell who is eligible for IGP and you can have the sweetest Jack Russell be in the perfect family, kid, dog, you know, anything you can imagine, even though they're the same breed. So, how do you go about matching these, selecting these? And that's where, you know, people like us, for example, come in and who do the work, who live and think about dogs and matches and people in training day in, day out. They, we breed it, we do it. That's what, you know, the worst thing that can happen is everybody maybe had this feeling is buy a dog and then find out it was not a match for you for whatever reason. And some people deny it, of course, because once it goes into the family, people get attached to the animal. But it might have traits that go completely against what you've expected maybe, what you wanted, etc. And then people will say, you know, I committed to this, so I'm just going to keep on doing this, this stubbornness almost, where they actually know this dog could have a better life with the right person.

But I am committed and I'm not going to break. I'm not going to tap. I'm going to keep doing this, make the best out of it, spend thousands of dollars to make it happen and actually really know deep down, if they were true to themselves, that it was a mismatch. So then the question becomes an ethical question. Can you sell a dog or rehome a dog? But of course, without bringing him to the shelter. So what is possible in that pet world of mismatches? I think for working dogs, it's pretty obvious. They sell dogs the whole time, right, because they're selected on traits and performances and level of training. It's like, anybody wants a dog that can heal and that can bite? Yes, me. So there's a market for this. It's not unusual. It's not unusual that working dogs move from home to home. But as in pet dogs, that's not so usual. But there's the most stress. There's the most, you know, things going wrong and happening. That's why there's also, you know, a lot of e-collar use within the pet community because they've got to fix things the whole time. We've got to fix this. We've got to fix this. And as in working dogs, ideally, I'd say ideally, you're more into creation. You're more into development and, you know, talent development. As in for pets, it's usually, how can we fix this so this is not a problem anymore? We need to fix problems here. And I think that's the purpose of having a dog is always finding a match, actually, so both of you have a better life, right? Yes. He has a better life. The dog has a better life because you facilitate him with things that he really loves and enjoys. And you get a better life because what he enjoys is giving you also pleasure in your life. And that's a hard search. That's things you've got to think about. Like, what do you really want from a dog? Like, ask yourself these questions except for companionship or your spouse or your kids. You want a dog. Who's taking care of this dog? That's the first match we need, right? Well, Nino, I'm telling you right now, man, I've been enjoying your healing course. I'm going to be going through all of them. I'm really looking forward to the food-only course. I'm just curious to what you guys work on. I'm telling you right now, I and I'm sure everybody else would buy the shit out of an online course where you go through and systematize. Let's figure out what type of dog you should get and shouldn't get. Yeah. That'd be a dope course. Let me walk you through how to get the right dog for yourself. Not necessarily just from a breeder. If you're going to a shelter, here are some basic, you know, understandings of how to read simple.

That is something that not only do I think people would benefit from innumerably, I think it would do a lot of good for the whole tool, ban tool argument. And I'll explain how in a second. But that I would be very fascinated. And I'd love to talk to you more with that, you know, when we can in the future. But the reason I think that would be so beneficial for the argument pro-con tool thing, right, is I can't tell you how many trainers, if they do overuse a tool. And I don't mean overuse as in blast a dog too hard because that's obviously a different story. Overuse as in maybe they use a tool for a dog that just didn't need it. A family that didn't need it. Or a family that doesn't know how to use it. Or, you know, X, Y, Z. Yeah. Is trainers aren't always comfortable telling owners, this just may not be the right dog for you. Yeah. So we can kind of sort of work around it and like make it happen to an extent. You can squeeze the round peg into the square hole if you really want to. Or it's going to be better for all of you if we just, let's be realistic here. Let's be reasonable here. But that's something that I can't tell you. Or maybe you know already how many pet trainers struggle with. Either they're not confident enough to say it or they just don't believe it to be true. And you should totally look into something like that. And if I could add something to that, to this conversation. So the other day I was shooting the shit with another dog trainer friend. And I said, why do they always talk about genetics of, we inadvertently talk about the genetics of dogs without talking about genetics of humans. Right. And so kind of like when we talk about character traits and personality traits and temperament traits of a human, like a lot of people barely know themselves. You know what I mean? Absolutely. They're still trying to figure that out. And so you'll see people who don't have a temperament to work with a certain type of dog. But they want it because it looks nice or it's flashy or it's a status symbol or whatever it is. But that's why Nino should make a core. Well, totally. And all I wanted to add was there has to be a self-reflection too, right? Because people could say, I want this type of dog and I might live this type of lifestyle. But do you know who you are? Like what about the genetics of the human compared to the genetics of the dog? The first thing that we talked about, the talent assessment that you talked about. That was fucking cool. Yeah. What talents would you need to have a dog like this? Exactly. Or profiles. And that was actually something we had talked about years ago.

How do we create canine profiles and owner profiles and stuff like that? So anyways, this is an idea. Yeah, well, I like to add on that topic is the outside insight. And I'll explain that really briefly. Is when you have some kind of hero or somebody you look up to, what happens is you look at them and you say, how can I become like them? If you see a champion as that's what I want to achieve, then you go, who is the best? What's his name? How can I become like him? So then you start looking at some of his traits probably. Yes. You're going to look at, okay, what does he do? When does he wake up? How does he train these dogs? How, how, how, how, how? So then I can get these skills and I can be like him. Right? So that's what's called observation imitation and it's called outside insight. You want to project it to you so you can become him. But it's more like you just said, Brent, it's actually looking into understanding first what talents are, what skills are, and then looking to the, from the inside, what traits do I have? And what combination can I develop here? And what timeframe? Because the speed of learning is also an indication of talent, right? So if it takes you 20 years, right, that's, that's not a great indication. So then you will go more into competency than talent, right? So both are very close to each other, but there are some distinctions. So, and then from the inside out, that's usually how you build self-reflection, self-development is a big part of that. And that's how you then can strengthen what you're already good at, right? Because it's no use that you sit, you tell somebody, you see that champion, he has these traits and he's so good at that. Now that's what you're going to do all day, every day. Same for your dog all day, every day. That's going to be an energy drain. Boom. You're going to go down in no time, right? So it has to come from the inside. It has to go. And you could have that as a, as an ultimate goal, as a, as an idol, maybe even, but you can't just do the copy paste stuff. If you only go to the how, how, how, how, how, you will be very disappointed really fast. Because these, these skills that he's portraying or she is portraying are a combination that first you don't comprehend. So you only see the tangibles maybe. And also, and like you said, secondly, is you need to understand your, your inner self first and how that is congruent to the goal that you want to achieve. Yes. Because let's say, for example, you don't even want to touch a tool, but you do want this title. You know, you know, how is that congruent with that result?

And, and what are the chances, stuff like that? So there's also things that's harsh truths. And you got to be honest that if you want to achieve certain things, you're going to have to do certain things. Are you willing to do these? And actually having a conversation like this, doing an assessment like this, a talent assessment, which is also what we do with new trainers in the MVP, their dog and the trainers. We do a talent assessment. And then we see their self-assessment on how they portray themselves throughout all the skills and their dog and how they see this is going to give us a clear vision, how that is congruent to the goals they have and what needs to be done and how we're going to keep the energy high. Because the energy keeping that high is what matters the most. It's better that somebody is in high energy, but never gets a world title, but enjoy the dog's life from day one till the day he died. Then somebody in pursuit and frustrated because he always fell short and he was putting in the reps. He was putting in the time. He was being consistent. Remember, he was being disciplined, but he is not able to combine the skills and the dog did not find the right skills either. So maybe the dog also was not talented enough and it all went to, you know, down the drain. So, and that frustration is not what you want. You want people to, to keep growing, to keep doing stuff. And then they'll, maybe they'll take another dog. Who knows if, if they understand, Hey, maybe not this dog. But the problem is most people think if I could do it again, well, this time it will be better. Right. And then they make the same mistakes and then they'd have the same outcome. So, you know, it's, it's not because you'd switch dogs that it's always going to be better. Always look at your own skillset and how to assess that. And I was very surprised how low the average person can assess their skills. It's, it's, it's really hard because they don't know what to look at. And I ask it all the time at my seminars and workshops and lectures that I do. What skills are you looking for guys? And I always hear the same things. Usually it's patience. Patience is an attitude. It's not a skill. Okay. So what true skill then are you looking for? And it's hard to define. So if it's hard to define, then I'm wondering, well, then of course it's hard to develop. Because if I would ask you tomorrow, what would it take to be a track and field runner? Or I can go all day. Really? I can break it into detail. It's, it's very clear to me what that pathway would look like.

But if you don't have any clarity on what it would take for you to be an efficient dog trainer, well, then it's all guesswork. Then you focus on the dog. You know, when's the next time you're going to find yourself in the States? That's a good question. Specifically the West Coast. Or, or let us know. Let us, let us know when you get a chance. I was, I was aiming for, I was aiming for March, but it's probably going to be more April. Probably. That's so, so interesting. Okay. Let us know, man. We'd love to come out and see you. Yeah. Yeah. Where are you going to go? Are you coming to California? Yeah. That's the point. Yeah. That's the goal. Yeah. California. Perfect. Love that. Perfect. Perfect. One question that we like to ask to kind of help people, you know, close out and kind of give a nugget of information to the newer trainers out there is if we would look at dog training, like an art, right? Like, like this, this such a, such a, it's an art form. An overarching thing with so many mini skills in it. What would be a piece of advice? What would be a piece of knowledge that you would want to give an up and coming dog trainer? It's a great question. It's a great question. And also very depending on who I am talking to. Right. So, right. I would say that the energy, which is the passion, right? It's got to be right. So what, what gives you energy in training a dog? That's what I want to find out. What, what is it that, that you, makes you want to do this? Right. Is it, is it a performance that you see imagining yourself that this could happen with this dog? And, and even visualizing that give me energy to achieve that. Right. That's a great way because the passion is what, what I told you is what fuels your skills and talent. So that's what I want to know first. Right. Because I can be very technical about, okay, you got to do this. You got to prioritize this exactly, but it doesn't make any sense if the other areas are lacking. Right. So I, I would really like to know what they're after. And then based on that answer, we would, we would find out what is possible and how we can accommodate and facilitate this development. So, because, you know, some upcoming dog trainer could be, Hey, I want to be the best behaviorist ever, better than Cesar Milan. Somebody could say, I want to win the world championships. Somebody could say, I want to be law enforcement. I want to catch bad guys with this dog. Somebody could say special forces. I mean, there's such a variety and all of them have different skills. Right. So I would first need to assess then what they want, the energy levels, what kind of dog, et cetera.

So, you know, it would best to be always personalized than generalized. Cause then if I, if I talk about, you know, if I go into my world, because then I would say, of course, for me, for example, is the flow dynamics sinking. And I would go straight into this, but that wouldn't be fair for the people that are only interested in behavior modification, for example, and say, Hey, that's what I want to do. I want to help people with aggressive dogs. I want to help people with, uh, you know, dogs that pull or, you know, have become trouble in life. And I can see, so it would be a different type of advice then. So, and I think also this, this is a really good question because it also defines the audience because some people want the behavior modification, which is based on a lot of cognitive skills, right? Because I mean, there's, there's no way you can go into any situation and that it would take you decades of experience before you can talk about it. So you would be very cognitive about what is possible, hypothetical, right? What, how animals behave, how they act, what you could do, possibilities as in performance, that's going to be very actively you being involved in the dog training. And I'll give you an example. I mean, if you see Cesar Millan, he's done some action, but if you truly, uh, define what action that is, there's nothing that you would say. I see myself working 20 years to hold that leash the way Cesar Millan just did. No, nobody thinks that it's, it's more of a, how did he assess the situation? How did he find the solution? Very cognitive. Yes. So, and he would find, uh, also the circumstances for the dog. If they change a little bit here, we can find results, but the performance side is so different. It would be you and the dog. You got a puppy. It's day one. Get out of bed. Let's start moving. What are you going to do? What are you going to do next? When are you going to use that marker? What food are you going to use? You see? So very purpose-driven. As on the other side, very solution-driven. And that's just a whole different training. Now, here's where the problem starts to exist is when they want and the performance and live with the dog and in peace as a family dog, pet dog. And that's where the conflict starts to go. Oh, they told me that I could not correct the dog. For example, the puppy, which is right. Right. But then he becomes a nuisance in the house. I can't live with this dog. What do I do? Right. Okay. In the performance, they told me how to use a leash or maybe how to use food. So maybe I can use the food at home.

But then the dog's not hungry anymore at home because he just trained. And then he doesn't listen. But no dog listens at that age. But they see listening as a part of being a house dog. You have to listen. Right. And this whole conflict of going back and forth, this then becomes a shit show, basically. Because you won't have the performance. And you won't have a great house dog. You're somewhere in the middle, which makes you go into only fixing stuff, for example. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. And then it's not about true skill development anymore for the dog nor for you. So some things do have to be, although I have a very open mind, do have to be inside a certain box or realm of what it is you want to do here. And what are your best chances are to get this? And how does that go along with the other side of the story, which is you want to live with that dog inside the house. Right. You want a very energetic dog because you're an energetic person, but it also needs to live with you. But how do you manage this energy? And in that sense, to me, a dog trainer is an energy master. Nice. Because if you can master the energy, you basically have so much control over what the action, how it takes place, what happens when. But this is long-term vision. Do not expect you to master a puppy's energy. How are you going to master a puppy's energy? He wakes up and he's like, bing. All right. Ready to go. It's showtime. So even whatever breed, all those puppies should be alive. And that's what you love about dogs is their energy, their activity and stuff like that. So, I mean, that's what most people like. And the question then is, how do you work with that energy? I just had a client. He sent me videos. This malinois is eating up his legs. And he's like, what do I do? Of course, from my perspective, I see, oh, look at that energy of this dog. If you could just channel that into what he's supposed to do. But then he doesn't have the skill to do this. So he says, help me, help me, please. And I say, okay, well, maybe he doesn't live too far away. So maybe he should come down and we'll check this. Because, yeah, I think talking about a mismatch, this could be a possible mismatch. So the expectations of having a dog in the house and the fact he has so much capacity in this dog, but doesn't know how to utilize it, how to use it. And the short-term vision of him is, how do I get through the day? He doesn't think about, oh, next year, my life's going to be so much fun. If the dog snows his everything, he doesn't have it. So he's thinking about, man, I'm getting eaten alive here every day with these little milk teeth.

And he's eating the kids. Help me, help me. And that's where we go into pet training, you see. So now we have a performance dog who is bred for performances and purpose and utilization of his skill, but unskilled in a pet environment with family becoming a problem. You see it every day, right? All the time. That's half our business. Yeah. Dutchies of Melbourne. This has been a genuine pleasure. Thanks for taking time out of your evening. Yeah, most welcome. We'll close it out. But man, this has been a blast. I'd love to talk with you more when there's more time. And for sure, do let us know when you come to the U.S. and California, and we'll come out and visit for sure. Yeah, we'd love to do that. Well, again, we want to thank you so much, Nino, for jumping on. Those of you, again, who are just listening to this and are finishing up this episode, you guys can find him on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. You can also find him online at stsk9.com. And his handle on all the platforms are stsk9. What does STS stand for? Real quick before we sign off. It's a specialized training system. Beautiful. So all the techniques combined, that's what the system is. The skills, all the skills that we apply, that's what makes the system. So it's specialized training because it's for a certain purpose that you want. It's that control, that high energy, that energy exchange, right? The precision, the speed. So the best things you can have. And that takes the skill. And these skills is what we like to teach people. I love that. Yeah, me and Mariano are currently going through his catalog. And so far, very impressed. Lots of knowledge and information. If you guys couldn't tell from this interview, go ahead and check him out at stsk9.com and check out what programs he has to offer. Again, if you also like this episode, guys, don't forget to hit subscribe and review this episode. And we look forward to seeing you guys in the next one. We should be having a couple special guests coming up very soon. So stick around and check in on our notifications to see who it is. Thank you again, Nino. We really appreciate you. My name is Brent. Thank you, guys. That other guy is Mariano Alvarez. And we'll see you guys in the next one. Peace. Thank you for listening to the Dog Trainers Podcast, a podcast created by dog trainers, for dog trainers, or anyone who's ever fallen in love with man's best friend. We really hope that you enjoyed this episode and can't wait to be back with you guys. Be sure to follow us at Dog Trainers Podcast on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube.

And don't forget to punch the hell out of that subscribe button and leave us a review. Remember, guys, this is your podcast. You're the best listeners in the world, and we'll see you next time.