E292: 데니스 펜지(Denise Fenzi) - "온라인 및 오프라인 수업 통합하기"

But in a lecture format, I was sort of forced to think about how do I want to teach this skill over several weeks? And I found myself taking the time to give the background. How did I get to this place? How do I basically pursue it? And then laying out a route that I could write down and provide video. And I was finding that my online students were bringing a lot more sophistication to the table. I think maybe because they understood why I was doing what I was doing. There was background for them. I think having video examples that they could review 100 times was really, really helpful, especially because on those videos, I could say things like, be very careful at this step. Watch how my hand doesn't move from my side. Or, you know, little details that you can bring their attention to. And it's not that I can't do that in person. But in person, I'm going to do it once. So even if they forget it, or I gave them so much information in a session that they don't have the things they need in the order they need them over time, I found that in person, it simply was not as impactful, which is fascinating, because you would think it would be the reverse. So I think the thing I could give people online was the ability to review what I said many times. And I had thought it through in a way that made the information logical and in an order that made sense to people. And I think that is something online training does exceptionally well, is forces the instructor to make sure they're breaking things down. And frankly, if I didn't do a good job, my students called me on it. So if I had a gold student in a class who's like, what about this thing, I would suddenly realize, my God, I never talked about that. So then you go back and you clear up your lectures, right? In person, you may not even know your jumping steps. And I think it's a little bit harder sometimes to fill that in. Another thing that the online world gives you is access to really, really good trainers, because you're not limited. So anywhere in the world, who has the information, who presents it in a way that you like, with a method that you like, with a style that you like. And that's not necessarily good or bad. It's just what's appropriate for the individual. When you're in person, you're generally quite limited to the resources that are available in a small area. And that is where online training just shines, because you can have the best person from Australia, even if you're in the United States. What in-person classes bring to the table? Probably the biggest thing for me is community. I love the online community at FDSA.

It's a rich community, and I think it's powerful, and it makes people feel connection. But there is something about looking at another person, talking to a person face-to-face. And I think many of us going through COVID became exceptionally sensitive to the fact that we actually do need to talk to people, to look at them. And there's something so isolating about not having that. I love the idea that people go to a class once a week or whatever they do, and they see familiar faces, and they have that personal connection. I support that every which way. And so that's one of my biggest reasons for loving in-person classes. The other thing is, if you are going to compete in dog sports in person, it's really hard to duplicate the presence of other dogs, other handlers, not just pet dogs walking down the street, other people who are focusing their dogs on them doing things you want to do in maybe crowded spaces, maybe indoors. Maybe you live in a place where you never go indoors for a dog. You know, you just walk your dog down the street. Your dog needs to be off-leash. And in many parts of the world, you actually can barely get your dog off-leash anywhere legally. So when you take these training classes, that might be your only option to actually practice your skills off-leash. And while there are a million things I can tell you and I can give you to help you duplicate some of these skills, it's hard. Like, I can tell you, you can go to shopping centers. You can go to the post office. There's all these things I do, laundromats, places I go, things I do. But there's something relaxing about going to a class and letting somebody else worry about it. You know, your instructor gets to set up this complexity for you, and it sort of comes along with the package. I love that. I love that you have another set of eyes on you because sometimes I have wanted to reach through my computer screen and just grab somebody's hand and literally place it and help them by manipulating their body. And usually I can use words to not have to do that, but there are absolute times when you just want to be able to get your hands on them in real time. So, like, an example would be around shaping. Around shaping, I want to be right there with you. I want to be clicking, and your job is to tie your click to my click. Little things like that. That's where I think the online world or the in-person world is amazing. The in-person world can get you in touch with the trial community near you. So where are your events? How do you enter them? Who is the trial secretary? Who's going to be here that I know?

I mean, I think the idea of never having done a dog sport, done all your work online, and then going to an event, I think would be incredibly overwhelming. Like, if somebody told me, you're going to learn how to ride a horse online, you're going to do all of it online, and then you're going to enter the show and you're just going to show up. I would be so overwhelmed. Like, where do you park the trailer? When do you take them out? What do you do? And I can say those things to a person in words, but I think being guided by a group of other people at the same event is really just infinitely superior to what I can give you in words. Even somebody saying to me, oh, don't enter that show, like in Flyball, after your dog does the event, you run at the far end with a toy with your dog. And I've had people say to me, don't enter that event with your dog because the run back is too short. And you have a really big dog who's going to need more space, and you're going to find that uncomfortable. So that's the kind of thing that you really need local knowledge of the conditions in order to be successful. So those are things I think are really hard to duplicate. And I think for some people, the motivation factor of being told that you will show up at your class at 7 o'clock on Thursday night, and you're going to pay for it, whether you show up or not, has a driving factor. That's sometimes the openness of the online world. Well, you can do it whenever you want. You got 24 hours a day. For some people, the freedom is almost the problem, and the structure is what keeps them on track. And we don't do that. We don't provide that kind of a structure. So those are my, you know, maybe long-winded thoughts on all the pluses and minuses or different things that erupt to the table by different approaches. Thinking about then that for those people who, like, don't have classes near them or what have you, is it possible to train 100% online? Like, is that even an option? It is. But it's hard. And here's some thoughts about that. If you are already experienced in the dog world, you can do it. So if you already understand the dog show scene in your area, you have a sense of the flow of training, you know what a dog show feels like, you know that if you had to, you could drive to one without a dog and just look at it and get a sense of what this event looks like versus that event. I would be actually pretty comfortable. Well, I've done this.

Okay, so for example, when I brought my dog to get her ORT, never trained in a scent work class, never went to a scent work anything, knew nothing about it, and wasn't the least bit concerned. So I entered the event. I knew it would be fine. But that's because I'm in the dog world. So if a person is in the dog world, I think they're going to be fine. Some events would be harder than others depending on what equipment is required, what space is acquired. Some events really do require a helper. You need other people. And then you're going to maybe round up your neighbors. But that gets stressful if you don't find that community, which does exist, by the way, to support you. I will say that when I was finishing my dog's obedience championships, I don't recall ever taking a class with either one of those dogs, even from puppyhood on. I do recall paying to attend drop-in classes and then doing my own thing on the side. So I pay for the class even if I don't participate because I just think that's good manners. I'm still using your space. And then I knew enough people that I was able to just call people up or whatever and get myself hooked up with a group of people who informally practice. So we would be to the park or whatever and run each other through and support each other. Many places around the world do offer rental options where you can go and rent a field, a training building or whatever. It is. It can be quite expensive. At least where I live, you're looking at $20 to $50 an hour to rent a space. So it's not an insignificant thing. A new facility just opened up down the street that's charging twice that. It's $50 for half an hour and $100 for an hour. Yeah. And we're in a similar boat where I am. So it's almost like it's almost cheaper to rent the space with an instructor. Of course, you get less time because if there's six dogs in the class for one hour, then you're not on it as much. But so we poached a fair bit on public parks and the like. And you can get away with some of that. But there are risks that come with that. So those are some of the things you can do if you do train online. I do an enormous amount of my training on my own. The vast majority, 95% or more. It's super convenient. I walk out my door. People so underestimate how much you can get done in a small space. They think my training area is huge. And then they come here and they're like, oh, it's tiny. And I'm like, you don't need much. So it's very convenient for me. It means that in the sport I do as a group, I do fly ball as a group. My time commitment is about 10 hours a week. And that is a lot.

And that's because I drive two hours each way. And then I'm there for several hours because of how the community works. Whereas if I look at my Mondio Ring community, I train almost exclusively on my own. And I would say I put in maybe a little over an hour a week of actual training time for the sport because there's no driving. It's just simple. And if I do drive somewhere, it's five or 10 minutes away. And then I work on my own. So there are different efficiencies, I think. So I know you already talked a fair bit kind of in that first question about what you see, some of the benefits and downsides to online in person. But if you were to kind of sum up the pros and cons, how do you look at that? I would say in person is about in person community and preparing for competition. The details, not the skills. I would say online is generally better for learning the skills because you can review them in a much more systematic. Focus with the best instructors that are available out there. Often it's a lot less expensive to do online. And I think time efficiency, you can probably get a little further with your online classes. So I think that's kind of roughly how I would split them. And you can certainly integrate them to good impact. Yeah. You talked about this a little bit before, but are there things that you feel like you have to take an in-person class to really get to train? No, but your life will be a whole lot easier. I mean, it's just, I know people who have done almost higher level stuff in almost every sport, but they absolutely have, like, if you want to do agility, you're going to have to find your way to a facility. Even if you don't have an instructor, you're still going to have to find your way to spaces that are amenable. I know when I did my tracking titles, never took a tracking class, never worked with another person, learned all the material and then went out and found fields. So it is also going to largely depend on what events. Like, I think nose work is extremely amenable to online learning. Tracking is extremely amenable to online learning. Obedience is extremely amenable, but you still need that preparation for the area. Agility is much harder because how many people have a full agility course, you know, that would cost you $10,000 just in equipment. Well, I don't know. I'm making that number up, but it would be a lot of money. Yeah, I don't know. But it's a lot of money and space and maintenance and moving equipment around. So that would be, I would say, one of the harder sports to do on your own.

A lot of the stuff we do online, the behavior work, I would say you can go quite far with it. It's true you can't do certain kinds of setups, but sometimes if you're strategic and you're using, you know, outside of dog parks and you're going places where, like I always tell people, go to a busy road. You never see off-leash dogs on busy roads because they're going to get killed. So you can kind of go across the street. There are some behavior things that I think you can actually do better online because I do know there are some behavior classes where the spaces are too small. And it's just the nature of the environment because I live in the San Francisco Bay area. Renting space is super expensive. So if you find a space which is 50 by 50, which is for those of you who need perspective, like an AKC obedience ring, and you want to do a reactivity class and you have six dogs in a space. I know dogs that can't get within 100 feet of another dog. Forget 50 by 50. So those kind of situations can also be quite limiting. So a lot of behavior work can be done online, but it's going to take a lot more initiative on your part to figure out where can I go to be successful? So there's absolutely rally. Setting up all those science and courses, I would be the first one to run to a class. I really would. But I would prefer to teach the skills at home on my own and then use the class for practicing. Somebody else set that course up for me. Practicing around other dogs, like there's an efficiency there that I think is really best served in a class environment. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What about like or how would you handle it, I guess, if you don't have a local class that aligns with your training approach? Because I think we hear that a lot from students, right? Yeah, this is actually, in my opinion, one of the most difficult things. Here's my first just right off the bat suggestion. If you walk into an environment, the first thing is you've got to be honest with people. If you're taking online classes, I would strongly suggest you make sure that the person teaching the class knows that and does not stumble upon it by accident. It's kind of like when you ask somebody their name. I recommend you do it when you meet them and not three weeks later because eventually it becomes awkward. Like there's a point when you should have asked a long time ago and you didn't. And so now you're kind of like, I don't know if I can admit to this person that I don't know their name. Right. It's like really awkward. I think the same is true with classes.

If you are taking online classes and you are taking in-person classes, don't wait until a whole lot of time has come by. And now we all stumble upon the fact that, gee, how come you already have a running contact? Oh, well, I'm taking this. That gets awkward and it didn't need to be awkward. It would have been very simple if when you walked into the class, you started with, I'm so excited to be here. I love agility so much. I'm taking a class online with Megan Foster and I'm learning running contacts and I need to be here. I'm going to work with you. Like you choose how you go in. Don't make it awkward. Your choice to talk about it is what makes it not awkward. So bring it up. Like, don't let it become a surprise. And I think this is a people communication skill. The one thing I always go back to in life as I get older, when people feel awkward about conversations they're going to have about any topic with any person about anything. If you just remember to be honest with the other person, honest doesn't mean judgmental and it doesn't mean putting my opinion on top of yours. Honesty simply means saying in words why you think or feel or choose to do the thing you choose to do. And it should be why you are doing the thing, not why you are not doing their thing. So just like with the dog, we teach the dog what we want rather than what we don't want. I can go to an instructor and say, oh, I'm going to I'm learning running contacts with Megan. I've always admired her style and how she gets that done. And she works with some dogs similar to me. So I went ahead and contacted her and she's giving me some help or I'm taking this class or whatever. That is very different than saying, well, I don't like the way you teach running contacts and I've observed your dogs flying off the equipment and that scares me. So I'm going to go take them with this other person online. In both of those circumstances, you might be telling the truth. The point is not everything needs to be said. And you can focus on the why you're making the choice you make without talking about why they might do things differently. And I think that is that little tweak in communication, focusing on why you do what you do as opposed to why you don't do what they do is probably if you just hold that in your head, it's probably going to lead you to a conversation that ends up respectful. And you put it out there and this is what I'm working on. And so I know you also do some contact stuff in this class.

If it's all right with you, I'll just skip that and I'll go work on my impulse control because, boy, my dog needs some help with that. And it would be a pretty unusual person who in this day and age with so much online learning would not be aware of online learning. It doesn't mean they might not get a little bit of a sting or a little bit of a discomfort, but they also generally have enough social skills to know to hide that and work that out on their own time, not give you grief. If a person to your face gives you grief about your choices to do some things differently than you, I'm going to suggest that you are probably going to run into a lot of problems with that person if you're not going to follow them hook, line and sinker. And there are absolutely some people out there like that who have a my way or the highway and they're going to make you feel very uncomfortable and squeezed if you do anything different. So then now you have to figure out what you want to do with that. My personal experience is I find those environments sufficiently unpleasant that I usually instead of fighting all the time to get what I want, I usually find another place to be. Or I do so much on my own that by the time I get back to them, I've sort of worn them down. But that's not fun for me. You want to have fun. So maybe also be looking for instructors who, even if they don't necessarily agree with your choices, respect that you have the right to make those choices. And especially in this day and age versus 10, 15 years ago, I think you're going to find that I would not be at all surprised if the person said, oh, I'm in that class with you. Right. If you're talking about an online class. Right. That's where we are these days. It's very normal to opt for a degree of online work. Are there, so you mentioned that there are basically, but I was going to originally ask, are there alternative ways to teach the skills that you need, you know, for in-person stuff, right? Or that you kind of get from those in-person classes without actually taking the in-person class. But maybe you could talk a little more about kind of what those skills are and maybe how you approach them if you don't have a class option available. So one thing is, like, if you're in the alumni group, go to the list and bring it up and say, this is the thing I'm trying to teach. This is the behavior concern I have. Or this is the, you know, my dog has issues with crowd. My dog has issues with groups of dogs. My dog has issues with strangers wearing hats calling me in the ring.

Ask for people's suggestions because people have done some brilliant things over the course of time. It's a matter of creativity and looking at the world differently. Like, if you are not already driving down the street, observing every, like, you should see me in the car. Like, honest to God, I'm driving along going, look at that. I have seen you in the car. Yes! Look at that fully fenced field with grass that's six inches long. You know exactly what I just said if you do tracking. Because you do it too, right? Like, you drive down the street doing exactly the same thing. Or when a store closes and the parking lot is now empty. Oh, my God, I get so excited. Like, I see, you see a parking lot. I see a training opportunity, you know? You start training your brain that way. And if you're not there yet, if you don't currently see the world as a training opportunity, you would want to go to the alumni list and just ask people, what have your experiences been? Because so many possibilities, like when I had a young dog who had some reactivity problems and I started socializing him out of the back of my car. And it just worked so unbelievably well because other dogs who walk by don't look in your car. That's just an unusual thing for a dog to do. So there you sit in the back of your car with your hatch open with your puppy watching the world and nobody watching you. And that was, what's that? Something is the mother of invention. I've lost it now. You know it. Necessity. Necessity is the mother of invention. I feel like I'm getting that wrong. Anyway, y'all know what I mean. I think that's right. Isn't it? See, sometimes you say it so many times you lose it. I think that's right. Yeah. But basically it forces your creativity. And other people may have already been through your problem, your route. And I find the alumni list to be full of people who want to be helpful. So ask, you know, how did you deal with this reactivity thing before your dog had shots? And you know what? You're going to get a lot of really interesting ideas. Throw half of them out and that's fine. Like half of them are not going to meet your risk profile, maybe too risky or not risky enough for you. It doesn't matter. Ask and then start sorting. And you'll get a few ideas that I never thought about. I never thought to go to the laundromat to get my dog exposed to tight spaces, right? With people pushing carts and doing weird things. And yet here I sit, right? So ask for help if you're not looking at the world yet that way. Even if you, you know, do have an in-person class with an instructor that you absolutely love, right?

Often the way one person kind of teaches a skill is going to be at least a little bit different from the approach somebody else might take. So when you do kind of get that differing advice from different sources, how do you approach that? How do you integrate it? Oh, my gosh. I think it is the most difficult thing. I have pretty good verbal skills and I'm pretty good at communicating. And I struggle with this one because I don't want to offend the other person. And sometimes it's worse than that. I not only don't want to offend them. I actually want their opinion. But after I get their opinion, I want to reserve the right to make the final decision. And this is difficult. It's easy if I'm just willing to go right over the top of you because I don't ask for your opinion. I just kind of walk in and say, hey, I'm really excited about doing it this way. And I didn't open up a conversation there. I just told you basically I'd be doing it this way. What's more difficult is when I'm looking for somebody I want to brainstorm with, somebody I respect and I want their input. But I also want to reserve the right to my dog is throwing a bone around. He looks quite cute, but he's loud. I want to reserve the right to make the final decision. And I find that really difficult to navigate. I wish I could just tell you this is how you do it. I just think it's really difficult. And it's probably a little different with each person. I have found that over time I tend to go in on a more assertive side. And then back off as opposed to going in on a more collaborative side and then become more assertive. Because I find it much harder to add boundaries than to remove them. So I'm more likely to go in with a this is how I want to do it. And then if I'm not thrilled with something, then say, tell me your thoughts. I mean, not how would you do it? Just tell me your thoughts. And then they tell me your thoughts and you say thanks. And you leave it at that. You don't even have to come to a conclusion. You're just trying to retain control of your dog's training plan. In my opinion, especially in certain sports is so very important, especially if you're a woman. I'll just put that out there. I think we struggle with that line between being nice and polite and taking people's input and appreciating them and also holding the line about expectations. And I would fully assume that I have an easier route than many because I come in with a certain amount of authority. People know who I am usually. So I have it easier. I think it's a very difficult road. And what I will say is you're going to learn some skills coming in.

Practice what you're going to say before you say it. And I think it's tough. It's hard to do it well. So if you've kind of chosen to approach or implement advice, you know, from an online instructor in particular, you kind of mentioned that you'd go in up front and like let your in-person instructor know that, you know, kind of take that approach. How do you bring that up? Or do you mention it kind of in a way that's still pretty respectful? Right? I do it when I first contact a person about taking a class from them. I tell them on the email that this is what I want from. This is why I'm approaching you. This is why I want to participate in your class. This is what I need. These are my parameters. These are my concerns. If I have any. Is this something you think might work for you? Because often what I'm actually asking for is truly the environment and no instruction at all. So I'm really saying, you know, can I come in and work around the edges? My dog struggles with other dogs or people and I need an opportunity to work on that. Would that be a problem for you? Of course, I would pay for the class. Let me know if you have any concerns. So generally people say yes to me. But again, I don't come in as an average person. So I think people are more likely to say yes. But that's I would approach it kind of roughly the same way. Anyway, I just recognize that the emotional burden on you is greater. If you feel like you're looking up at an authority figure and still trying to hold the line about that, you want to do things this way. You want to do them maybe because you do live in a place that hasn't really changed their training methods in a super long time. And here you are, Miss Progressive 23 year old female walking in the door. Sure that, you know, you got this plan and you may well, you may actually really be right on the right track. But you find yourself in that, you know, you're looking at somebody who could be your grandmother and feeling really uncomfortable about the elements of respect. And so I feel that I'm not I don't want to make light of the challenge. I'm not saying it's just a matter of using the right words. I think it's an enormous challenge. I do think you can work it out. And I think a lot of people have worked it out. But it's it's something that deserves some consideration before you walk in the door. All right. So kind of to round things out, one last question for you.

Right. So if we were to kind of drill down all this stuff that we've been talking about, about online and in person, integrating them into like a key takeaway or like one kind of piece of information you really want listeners to understand or like a final thought, what would that be? What do you want to leave people off? I would say online is the best place to learn skills. And in person is the best place to apply them so that they'll hold up in a real world setting. Nice, condensed. Good place to end off. You know, look at me. Get it down to as few words as I can. Excellent. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Denise. I think this was excellent stuff. Thank you so much. All right. And thanks to all our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Today's show iso. Thank you.