니노와 래리 크론: 복종 및 전기 목줄 훈련에 관한 심도 있는 토론

If what you're doing is working and you're getting the results you like and the dog is being treated properly and fairly and the dog is in good spirits, well, then keep doing what you're doing. Right. Well, unfortunately, Larry, unfortunately, that's not the case for everyone because there are people with genuine good intentions and they're being stopped by either their clubs, governments, or even organizations that forbid you to use any of those tools if you were ever to compete. Of course, they're not going to come to your home and check you in the club or whatever. But when there's snitching going on and there's pictures popping up or videos and they get notice of this, they might give you the repercussions of banning you from that sport or whatever, even though they know in that specific country it is allowed, they could still ban you. So, for example, you go to the world championships as a French team and in France, e-collars are allowed. But let's say they got videos of members that are in the team competing and they send those videos to the organization. Well, then the organization can kick you out, which is what happened, I think, last year or two years ago. So they actually kicked out the whole team based on footage that they took at home even where it's not illegal, but just knowing that they were using it got them kicked out. So, yeah, it's not about, oh, we're having good intentions. We're good for the dogs. We're having, you know, a structure to teach dogs things with this tool and it's doing magnificent things. That alone today is not enough anymore. You know, see what organization, who's, you know, what country are you at? You know, all that kind of stuff, like commercial laws. Like we've talked to people before that, you know, have commercial interests and talking only positive, even though they know it's not always the best advice for some people. But they're not going to say it because they are now in the only positive bracket or box, which, you know, keeps them from giving genuine advice sometimes. And that's also a problem. So this is not just about, oh, there's two guys here going to talk about a collar with good intentions. I do feel from the responses that we get, there's a lot of issues with people that either can't get one of those collars. It's illegal or they're, I mean, they want to do the best for their dogs. They want to, you know, also invest in education. But the government is just not allowing them. But anyways, we can talk about politics a little bit later when those questions are getting answered of those people.

But I think it's definitely something that, you know, Larry, you and I, I think we have followers like across nations and across continents. So what we say will not be. Yeah. We have people from all over the world on here right now. Hey, Wallace, how are you, sir? From all over the world. So this is definitely a conversation, you know, people are waiting on. So, of course, we'll get into mechanics and the way we use the tools as well as everything else. But, yeah, unfortunately, the politics are a big part of it now because we'll do what we love to do. No matter what your area of dog training is in, whatever your discipline is in, it's being affected big time, you know. And everything starts in Europe. And if they start banning tools in Europe, which they have, then they start breeding, you know, banning breeds in Europe, which they have. Everything moves over this way, you know. And me and you do things a little differently, but a lot of the same intentions in the way, right? Like, I work with so many average dog owners and a lot of dog trainers, too. And through the seminars, I've been fortunate enough to work with hundreds and hundreds of people over the past few years, if not thousands. And what's disturbing, you know, is the lack of understanding on just the basics, the basic communication, the classical conditioning, how dogs learn that's out there. And the bad advice and training that people are getting and paying a ton of money for, like they go through trainer after trainer paying thousands. These are the same people that struggle teaching dog with a leash or with food. And their trainers are throwing e-collars on the dogs and they're making it much more difficult for people like me and you and other people that are trying to represent dog training and the tool in the proper light. And so for several years, you know, nothing that I do is sexy or fancy. I've always focused on the average dog owner because we all have a habit in the dog training world where we almost communicate with each other on a whole a lot. We almost market to each other dog trainers, right? All the videos and everything. But when it comes down to it, the real numbers are in the average pet owner, the average dog owner. And that's why the purely positive people are winning these battles because they have the numbers of the average dog owners. That's to where the so-called balanced trainers, the egos come into play and we can't agree within our same group. You know what I mean? And we talked about ripping apart of trainers and stuff.

So the way I have shown the e-collar for years is very simple, very basic. And I've structured it in a way I didn't create anything. I didn't invent anything. And I'm always very clear to say that. And the way I use it, I have my people get away from having to use it very, very quickly because it becomes such a beneficial instrument in their arsenal to give their dog a much better life. Where the dog can be off at a park running like a real dog needs to do. But yet, to this day, we still have so much confusion on that. Yeah, I agree. It is a numbers game. I mean, just like any state prison, I guess, in the U.S., you know, who runs the yard? You know, the race with the biggest number. Okay, it might be a little weird comparison, but that's what it is. It's like, yes, we're being flooded with all positive trainers or people that have different kind of breeds. Their voice is just so loud compared to, you know, the trainers that, you know, use this and try to educate people on this topic. I think that we're just outnumbered. We're being, you know, also sold out because these people know that there are some competent, you know, trainers out there as well. But the fact that some European countries don't even make an exemption for professional trainers that have been proven to be out there for years and doing good stuff and great stuff, even for law enforcement, helping agencies, even they get banned. That means there's no debate even about are you competent or are you skilled to do this? This is just about, all right, we decided that regulation is going to cause too much effort. We don't want to do that. So you and I are collateral damage. You, not yet. I would say not yet, but I will be soon because the ban has also been approved in Belgium. So from, you know, within less than five years, we're going to face the ban also. And by, since the 1st of January this year, the ban in Holland is activated. So no longer any e-callers, but you can, can you imagine like a country like Holland, they have such a history with the KMPV exporting dogs, you know, their training. And you can agree and disagree on the methods that they've used, but you're not going to tell me that in that country, that kind of tradition, there is nobody capable of doing this. And there's not an exemption, not even close. So, and they tried to lobby for it. And that was the hunting lobby because they have a little bit more big numbers than, you know, the, the protection work trainers. There was nothing to do about this. That's the way it was going to be.

And we're just following like sheep other countries because the, it all started somewhere in either in Scandinavia and Switzerland and, and everybody just jumping on that same boat and we're Europe. Right. So we all gotta be one. And yeah, that's what it is. And like you said, if one state in the U S is gonna, you know, try to install a band because it's just a populistic decision as well. I mean, if you're a politician and, and people that don't know what we do or not in our line of duty or job, and they would ask them, would you use electricity on a dock? Well, no. Are you okay with that? We banned this stuff that this would be done forever. Yeah, sure. Yeah. That's yeah. Why would you ever do that? So I can see that, but of course we're being completely dismissed completely. Like, you know, in the U S things might be a little bit different because, you know, the, the laws with guns and all that kind of stuff is also, you know, is, is not as severe as, as Europe, for example, they, they still leave you that piece of freedom and choice of living and, and what you're going to do with your dog and how you're going to train it. But I don't, I don't think it's going to last, like you said, you know, because if let's say the entire European continent is banning it. And the U S also as a, you know, as a Western country will try to, you know, align with the ethics and the morals of a, of a Western community as, as a continent, even. So I think it's going to follow anytime soon. I'm not sure when, but I think it will be, but that's of course, another discussion. But let's just go with what we can do today. And that is the people that are still able to use this tool or purchase it or, or want to make the best out of it. Let's help these people today. And, and yeah, but these are concerns that are definitely on the back of my head and many other trainers. Like, Hey, there's some people probably tuning in now that you, that have one at home, but they can't, it can't be on a picture, but, you know, being caught with a collar on their dogs. They can't be on a video. So you can't say, you might just shoot a video of your nice training session. Oh no, you can't. You know, if anybody sees this, I'm going to be in trouble. It's like, what the, what's going on? Like you're doing a fantastic job. You're, you're a champion. Why can't we just display what you're doing and all the great stuff that you, the skill that you put into this. So we got, so if that, that means if I want to videotape you, we've got to like, make it look like you don't, but you actually do.

That's a tough one for me because then we're trying to fake things. And faking things is, is, is something I've never liked. And same as with the police. When I was at the police working and I was admitting that I was using any collar and stuff like that. And the federal police was the governing, you know, entity that would tell you what you could use or not. And they knew I'd use it. And they tried everything to stop me. They tried literally everything. They even wanted to penalize me like, you know, legally stuff like that. But, but they couldn't because in Belgium, there is no ban, but just, you know, I was like, yeah, well, I'm not going to pretend. We have to tell people what we do. And that's why we're here today, Larry. So. All right. Let me ask you this. What do you think is the biggest misconception or mistake people are still making with the tool to this day? 2022. There's no reason to excuse because there's plenty of good information out there for people to turn to. But to be honest with you, Nino, I see people turn into the correct information and still struggle. So why do you think they're still having so much trouble utilizing the tool in a way that the general public, when they see it, they go, whoa, that's actually pretty cool. Not what I thought it was, because that's what I see over here. I see people still walking around with the tool on the dog, relying on it constantly, using it hundreds of times a day with, with no beneficial effect. And that's what I steer my people away from doing. What about you? All right. That's a great question. And I think that deserves a, you know, an answer that is not just going towards, oh, this is a misconception or whatever. Look, if we're going to give validation to people that we believe as good dog trainers, who validates these people? Well, usually judges in the sport, right? They would tell you, oh, X or Y, they've got X amount of performances done. And they got awarded with these kinds of trophies because of their excellence in technique, because the dog was showing such capabilities. So what a trainer does in the competition, he is trying to showcase what this dog can do within the sequences that are, you know, being told he needs to showcase. And he can win points by showing how, how responsive the dog is, how fast the dog is, how high he can jump. So you're literally going to show the entire skill set of the dog and its talents and, and overall great performance. And then a judge going to say, well, this is great. I'm going to score you with a hundred, a 99, whatever.

So that tells people, other people in the world, like, Hey, if you're looking for good dog trainers, we're, we gotta be looking for people that have gotten this validation of excellence. All right. That's how it usually goes. Now let's find these people. And then you want to talk to these people, but these people can't genuinely tell you that they've used the tool because the organization does not allow you to use it to all their country. That doesn't allow you to use the tool. Well, now we're going to believe a fake story because they're not going to tell you what we do, but we can't really tell you. They're going to say, they're going to look you in the eye and say, of course we don't use it. All right. So now you believe, well, all this was possible. We could have reached the highest peaks in this, in the sport without using it, but that's not the truth. And now we've, now we're creating a problem because we make a lot of people now believe, look, these guys done it without, look at their performance, look at their, their wins, look at their trophies. Like they've done it all. And they've not because, I mean, yeah, they've done it all, but they can't tell you the true story. So if you don't know the whole story, what reference can we tell people? If you're saying, Hey, look up this dog trainer X, Y, or Z, look at the performance. Like, because if, if you want a reference or a validation, you can't just say, well, look at this freestyle videos of Nino, for example, because not everybody takes validation from this still every day. People call me a circus artist because, you know, why is this necessary? Whatever there's some people that see value in it, in the, in the technical side of things and those performances, but still today the reference is, is the sport let's face it. And if these people can't even say what they do or what they use, or they have to lie about it because they have to do workshops and, and, and basically monetize their trophies because I mean, those trophies not going to pay any bills, but if you get invited to do seminars worldwide. Now you can pay bills. Now there's people want to, you know, buy your ticket here, what you have to say, but you're not going to give them the whole story. So they're going to leave with an incomplete story. And let's face it. You and I are an e-caller user. If you know what an e-caller can do and for yours, you know, what you say on the basic level, but also on the super advanced level and high competitions, the remote control that you can establish with minimum interventions.

It's like, it's day and night difference for somebody that does not use this, but there you go. You, you go ahead and tell people that you don't while you do. Now, now we're creating a lie here and we're telling people, Hey, just, just go out there and, uh, and do 50% of what this guy does. But I mean, the e-caller has such a, uh, such an impact on your overall outcome and control, because if you know how to communicate with it, and we'll talk about this. And if you could do it subtly, I mean, people that wouldn't know the dog's got a collar on, let's say you would put a scarf over it. That would not even tell them. They couldn't even tell if the dog was getting that e-caller communication. So you could do it so subtle that it's something that you can't even see with the eye. Even if you're looking at it, you get, did he, did he really get something? But people see the obvious. What do you see? Ah, people like starts dogs that start screaming, uh, you know, dogs that feel like a complete mess, stressed out. That's what people see. And that's very, I mean, that, that strikes you because like, Hey, what is this BS, man? This gotta stop. How do we stop this? Well, guys, uh, you can sign this petition and then we can stop this, you know, immoral, uh, abuse of these dogs. But Hey, let's face it. If, if you're just going to spend thousands on a collar or hundreds and in education, your intention is not to, you know, to, to have a dog that crumbles, that cries, that screams. This is BS, this is, this is, this is not going to happen. I mean, I assume that's not your, you know, idea of why you want to purchase that tool in the first place, but it does happen. But let's face it here. And this is something that strikes me the most. I was a police officer and I still am active, but active duty on the absence of leave and the 18 years and the 18 years and 12 years of those 18, I was responsible also to look for a dog abuse, like cases and stuff like that. Because as a canine unit, you have that responsibility to also follow up with that. Never in those 18 years was I called to investigate e-collar abuse. But do you want to know how many times we got called for abuse with a dog that is not e-collar related? All right. So that means everything that goes to these courts and the judges that do find these people or give them sentences, right, based on the abuse, well, it didn't have anything to do with an e-collar.

So how on earth, if those statistics tell you that they're all, I mean, the fines and the sentences given by these courts are not e-collar related, why do we have to install this entire law of something that is on paper, not even the biggest problem? Their biggest problem is with nasty people that do nasty things and that shouldn't have any animal in the first place. But why is this, this scream so loud of an anti-e-collar stuff, whatever, and abuse? Of course there's cases, but let's just compare it. The cases of abuse without a collar, they outnumber, since we've been talking about numbers, they outnumber the ones of abuse with a collar by thousands. It's crazy. So it's like, then it becomes a political thing because look, somebody goes in, this is exactly what happened here. The anti-lobby, they got an appointment with the minister of agriculture. Those are usually the ones that, you know, look into this stuff. And they zap him with an e-collar with a dog, by the way, on the max. He's like, oh, oh, that hurts. Well, we're not going to do that to a dog, are we? Well, of course you don't want to do that to a dog. Because, well, also now that he feels pain, every dog feels pain, absurd as it is. But anyways, his sensation was so like, oh, well, we can't be doing that. We're, I mean, we're people with morals and with ethics and standards. And, I mean, we're, you know, contemporary. And this time and age, we're not going to do that to our animals because these animals live with us. They are serving us. They are, you know, loving us. Why would we ever do that? So if you're coming in from that emotional point of view, well, then it would be a shame that that's your intention. But, of course, they don't know if there's levels to this. There's other dogs with higher drives, no pain thresholds. There's also the way you introduce it, the overlays you do mechanically, all the stuff that you teach. So it becomes like almost an invisible leash. None of that was ever talked about. It was just like, do you feel this pain? Let's stop this pain, okay? You can stop this pain. Look, just a few videos ago, I was doing something with an e-collar. And somebody asked me, would you do this to your daughter? Would you put, like, well, hold on a second here. Why are you comparing a dog to my child, okay? And first of all, the dog you see in the video, that's like, that's a high drive dog. You know, that's a dog that needs to be trained and controlled. Like, I don't understand the comparison to people at all. But that said, let's say we're talking about discomfort.

Yeah, if that's the, you know, we can honestly say that in some cases e-collar can give discomfort. Well, do you know any kid that has ever went to adulthood and ever had any discomfort, by the way? And you as an adult, isn't that what we preach all day these days? It's, you know, find discomfort. You know, no more comfort zone. Get out of the comfort zone. Be comfortable with discomfort. Oh, yeah, but if you want to train a dog, all of a sudden that doesn't apply. Like, this dog should be free. Do whatever he wants. Eat whatever he wants. You know, attack every dog that he wants. What is that? Where is the world coming to? Why do we have to explain as professionals proving we're trying to do things better and more efficient and more humane and more dog friendly? But nobody's listening to you and me, Larry. They're listening to the people with the 5,000 signatures or 40,000 or 100,000 telling you to stop this. So I'm sorry that I'm going on about this, but that's where it all starts. This is the problem. The problem, like, I even have to explain myself to my own family. They're like, by the way, Nino, you use e-callers, right? Yeah, I do, mom. I do. Why? Yeah, because e-collar isn't that nasty? Well, we know you don't train nasty, but like, isn't that nasty? Like, how do you feel about that? So that tells you everything. I've been doing this professionally for years. I've been at the unit for, you know, over 10 years. They're still asking me, is that okay? You see, so the perception of people that don't work dogs and they hear this e-collar electric. Stop this, okay? So I can see where that comes from. But as a politician, you shouldn't be led by, you know, what people say without any expertise. You have to hear the experts. But the experts, the lobby with experts was, you know, a bunch of manufacturers that were not interested in being in the lobby in the first place. And the manufacturer is somebody that makes profit. So he is not a neutral voice. All right. So if the manufacturer is not neutral, I could see that. Okay, who's next then? The vets. Okay, the veterinarians. Look, me and the professor, Mark, we've talked to, you know, a professor that has written multiple, multiple articles on a European level. And her research was absolutely disgusting. Why? Why? Because it was just 20, 30 dogs. And then what kind of breed? Oh, yeah, that breed with that kind of competency. Oh, let's see if they have stress and all that kind of stuff. Like, first of all, you and I know that stress to a dog is not just coming from a tool. You know, a handler himself without any tool can cause the most stress to a dog.

So how are you going to measure something if you know nothing about the competencies of the handler, if you know nothing about the drive and the skill set that the dog is capable of, and you're just going to randomly look into a case and then write studies and stuff like that? Like, I was like, well, listen, if, okay, the manufacturers are not being hurt. Got that. But the vets being, you know, appointed or assigned to this are obviously biased also, right? They are not working with the kind of dogs that we work with, Larry. They're not solving these problems either. Doctors and professors usually do not train dogs. It happens. But that's not usually the case. So now who's going to talk on our behalf now? Oh, you think they're going to call Larry Cron or Nino to come and talk about e-callers? No, of course not. Of course not. So who's left now? Oh, the hunting lobby. Well, you know what they said? Literally, that was the statement of the cabinet. They said, look, hunters, there's a whistle that you use, right? Why don't you blow the whistle and reward your dog instead? Case closed. It's on paper, Larry. I can show you the transcript. Yeah. I can show you the official response of the cabinet. But you know what the problem here is, Nino? And almost opposite of what you're saying. What you're saying totally makes perfect sense. Over here, for example, I saw a post on an e-collar group on Facebook the other day. Just e-collar group. And I don't do things in groups. I stay out of groups. Every now and then I see something and I can't help but say something. It was a young trainer with a little dog on a place board using an e-collar. And the dog was struggling. Okay? It was very clear that the dog wasn't sure what's going on. There was a lot of confusion. It just wasn't good training. And she asked the question and it was an e-collar-based question. Some of the responses is exactly why we're still having so much problems with this tool. Someone chimed in, you have to dial up the e-collar. Keep going higher until the dog complies. Because, see, to this trainer's opinion, the dog's just being defiant. Okay? That right there is an individual that knows nothing about training dogs. And I wasn't that kind to her response. Because she was so arrogant with the response that she truly believes she knows what she's talking about. And she doesn't. So, it's people like that, that you have a little dog struggling, visibly struggling, just with confusion. And now you start amping up an e-collar. And you see the dog really confused.

And when it finally figures out how to make the discomfort stop, they're like, see, the dog knew what it was supposed to do. It was just fighting it. And that's such bullshit. And it's people like that, that are crippling, crippling this industry. I watch people when they come into my seminars, right? When anyone has an e-collar on, I watch. And a lot of these people are professional dog trainers. And I'm watching the receiver. And there's times I watch that red dot on the receiver going off nonstop. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Because they come in and they're so nervous about their dog misbehaving in front of other trainers. They get stressed out. And they're boom, boom, boom, hitting the dog to tell them, you better, better behave in here. And I'll say that. I'll say to them, why are you hitting the e-collar? What do you mean? They say, well, I'm watching. You hit that e-collar probably 15, 20 times within two minutes. Why? And then they know. I saw it. And they'll explain to me why. I say, well, okay. Does it work? They're like, well, what do you mean? And I'm like, how many times do you hit that e-collar throughout the day? 10? Well, yeah. More than 10? Yeah. Maybe 100? Maybe. Is it changing anything? Is it working? Well, no. Then why are you doing it? And see, so for the mass numbers, the mass numbers, the average dog owners and a huge segment of dog training, the majority, unfortunately, they don't understand how the dog learns before ever putting a knee collar on a dog. And so it's so easy to push a button, you know, and people get so trigger happy. And that's something, the way I do things, can I do things a little differently? Yes. But I know that everything we do, anyone with any kind of a platform, anything we do, people pay attention. And then they try to copy you. And if you try to show, hey, look how great I can make my dog with a gas pedal for the e-collar, people are going to cause a lot of harm to dogs because they don't understand the process that went in before that. Right? So I tell people, can I use an e-collar and make my dog's obedience better, faster, sharper? Now, absolutely. Do I? You never see an e-collar on my dogs for a reason. I want people to understand my dogs are really well trained with nothing on. Okay? With nothing on. I'm very conservative through that whole training process for people with the e-collar, that conditioning phase, that inner, much slower than they'd have to be. But I do that on purpose because it forces people to start learning to have some kind of connection with the animal and to spend some time learning how the dog responds to things.

And they are so much less likely. And I know this for a fact because I've done it for years. They're so much less likely to cause any harm to their dogs. So when I'm working with someone, whether it's a seminar, whether it's a private lesson, my people don't cause harm to their dogs with e-collars. But yet you have people with huge internet platforms, much bigger than me. I deal with their people constantly through seminars and private sessions and phone consultations to where the dogs are completely destroyed. And they were destroyed because of the e-collar. Not solely because of the e-collar, but because they had no idea what they were doing. So if you pay $4,000 or $5,000 for someone to train your dog, and they say this dog blows up when it sees a dog on the street, and they tell them, put the e-collar up to 127. And when they see the dog, here, here's an exact example that I talked to the other day. The dog gets reactive in the house with the other dog. Okay, put the dog in the crate. A pit bull, mind you, a pit bull. Turn the e-collar up to 127 when the dog's in the crate. Hold the button down for 10 seconds. That's someone paying thousands of dollars for this advice. So see, that's what I see. 365 days a year. Dozens of times a day I talk to people like this. Three or four years ago when I started talking about this, five years ago, people would tell me I'm full of shit. I'm trying to be holier than now and build my own businesses. No, you don't understand. This is going on. I'll never forget. One trainer said to me, I don't believe you because I don't see it. The funny part was he didn't see it because he was one of the people doing it that I hear about all the time. So of course he's not going to see it or hear about it. You're one of the suspects. You're one of the problems. Okay. And people still can't get over that fact that it's not just a hammer. So someone, Steve Washburn. Hey, Steve. He said, e-collar is a communicative communication device. It's not to train a behavior in or out of a dog. Well, that's not exactly true, Steve. And so that statement, what exactly does that mean? Because see, there's a lot of people that have the e-collar on and say, oh, no, it's not to punish a dog. It's not to teach a behavior. It's just a communication device. Well, what does that mean? A cell phone's a communication device, but I can tell you exactly what I want. An e-collar can't do that, right? Unless there's something really tangible attached to it. So I make it very, very simple for people. Very simple for people. You have to understand positive reinforcement before you do anything, right?

How to teach a behavior. If you don't know how to teach a behavior with a leash or with food, you shouldn't be moving on to anything else. Then you ask someone to describe negative reinforcement, explain how it works, and they're going to recite the quadrants. Just reciting the definitions of the four quadrants doesn't mean you could train a dog or you even know how they really work properly, right? So if negative reinforcement, and this is the most science you'll ever hear me get, negative reinforcement is just the ability for the dog to escape and avoid pressure, no matter what kind of pressure it is. Let's think about that in terms of the e-collar, right? People say, well, why do you ever use the e-collar before command? Or when would you use it after command? For me, just me, very simply, I only used to use the e-collar as negative reinforcement after I gave the command when the dog was learning. Then someone far superior than me taught me, hey, if the dog's ability to escape and avoid the negative reinforcement is taught this way, don't you think they would learn it much better if they learned how to escape it both ways in the beginning? Come on, the pressure, give the command, turn it off. Same thing. Yeah, that makes sense. So when I started doing that, which lately became very controversial, right? When I started doing that for the first couple of days, the learning and the behavior, the attitude of the dog went through the roof. Everything got better, right? So now people like to say that e-collar is used before the command forever. Not for me. So my whole goal with the dog is I spend maybe two days in that conditioning phase where I'm using the recall and the send away and using that e-collar before the command that continues for very short moments with positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, to teach that dog how to escape that stimulation, right? That's it. Because the end goal for me and the people I work with is if the dog's going to learn how to avoid it, they first have to know inside and out how to escape it, correct? How do I turn this off? So the first two days, three days tops that I'm conditioning a dog and they know in the beginning, like, whoa, what is that weird thing? But I call the dog or give a little leash pressure and they know that and it goes away and they get rewarded. Now the dog starts learning. Oh, I know how to remove that, right? They know how to remove it inside and out. They know how to avoid it. Now after a couple of days, when I say, hey, Fido, come and it doesn't come and I tap after and he goes, oh, I know how to turn that off.

And he comes to me. I'm no longer using the e-collar before the command, contrary to what some groups out there like to believe. But at the same time, and you tell me if I'm wrong, people like you and many others that use it like a gas pedal in performance, you could do it both ways. You could do it multiple ways. When it's not such only used as an aversive, we could do incredible things with that tool. As I have shown for myself, you have shown constantly. Many others have shown, right? But you have the average dog trainer representing the numbers and the average dog owner who puts that thing on and they don't like what the dogs, oh, they pick up the remote and the dog cowers. It's not what it's supposed to be like. And so those are the people that when these governments, these agencies come after us, those are the demonstrations they use. They're not using my videos. They're not using my dogs because they'd lose. They'd lose. They'd say, well, what's the problem with this here? Okay. So I take my clients that have no dog training ability. Zero. Nothing. Some of the worst handlers you'll ever see. They have no knowledge of how a dog learns. They go out and they get a high drive working dog or even worse sometimes, a high drive bird dog that they have no control over. And by the end of the first week, they're at a regular park or going on a hike and their dog is running free and it's never experienced anything to destroy the dog. But yet these governments and these people, these purely positive people want to take that away from not just the people, from the dogs. You're going to tell me you care about the dogs when you want them confined to a leash the rest of their life. How many dogs are going to get killed when you tell someone, use a whistle and food and your dog will come back to you when it's chasing a deer? How many dogs are going to get hit by a car? Right? But these are the things we're not doing. So I watched a video the other day on e-collar stuff and it was real long video and it went on forever. And I'm always open-minded. And they had good intentions. But I watched the whole thing because I wanted to see if I'm the average dog trainer or the average dog owner, even worse, did I get anything out of that that's going to help me and educate me? And the answer was no, nothing. I'm still just as confused. Right? So for me, there was a time where I said, I'm done. It's not worth the headaches, you know. But the feedback I get from so many people all over the world, you know, when I get someone who says, this changed my life with my dog, why would I stop doing that? There's no way.

But there's still so many misconceptions how I use it, how you use it, how other people use it that are doing good things with dogs. And so for me, during this live, I just want to answer any questions people may have. They probably have less questions for me because I've been so open about everything. I said this to you before we came on live. I've talked to so many hundreds of people every month, you know, that go through every kind of program possible. And I know a lot of people that have taken your course, that are currently in your course, and they're extremely happy. I haven't met one person that doesn't love it. Right? And I don't have to say that. But they, not only because of the results they're getting with their dog, but they're having a blast doing it. So people are going to be interested, and you don't have to give away all your secrets or anything, but you're never going to be hurt by explaining the way you utilize the e-collar a little bit so people see a different side of just from my end. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah. Well, thanks for saying that. But I'm hearing a few things here that we need to clear because there's a lot of information to absorb. And the things that you say stem from your personal experience and what you've seen and what you work on, your environment, people that call you and ask for help, and then what you observe and the conclusions you make. There's two things. Well, you said the collar is a tool that can be used to avoid and escape. Like, so how do you teach a dog that he can understand how to avoid by showing him with the leash? But I already hear Larry is multitasking. He is using his analytical ability to see what the dog is doing, like in the moment. Then he's making enhancements as he's showing the dog where to go to. So he's using his, so first you observe, right, your brain processes. Then you pull the leash with your hand, but you do it slightly, not jerking. So that kind of, you know, finesse that you put into this is, you know, how you gently show that dog. On top of that, you're pushing a button. When the dog complies slightly into the direction you want or shows the behavior that you're interested in, you stop that pressure of the leash. You also stop the e-collar. On top of that, you come with a reward. Larry, there's a lot of things you're doing that for you. Right. Or, or something that, yeah, because for you, this is almost unconscious behavior because these skills are being applied at the same time in your subconscious. There's no way that Larry says must pull leash first, then hold button release.

No, that would, that wouldn't, that wouldn't be possible. Then you wouldn't be Larry and nobody would know you because you'd still be struggling. So you find a way to combine all these skills. And then of course, if we look at new people that come in and they get a high drive dog, the higher the drive of the dog is, the more fast the processing needs to happen. Because you really literally don't have time. They're already in your face. They're already moving. All right. So that means as soon as you get a higher drive or a faster dog, that process needs to speed up. So how do you get that, you know, dexterity in your fingers and, and, and that, that, you know, overall comfortable feeling or confident confidence in yourself that you can pull off three different things. Maybe four, even if you're using the clicker and maybe even five, if you're going to like drop a ball on top of that, that's a lot Larry. But yes. Then on top of that, what stops people then, because I explained, I put it in the open. Those are some of the skills that you will need. Okay. So what, so what's the problem now? If we open up about the skills that you need to, you know, comprehend and apply, there's something called driver behavior. And I'm going to give you an example. And this is scientifically validated in psychology. So it's not just a story I make up. This is validated. That means it's, it's true. And if you are, let's say a try, I'm going to, a, a be strong, that's one of the control mechanisms of the, one of the five main drivers people can possess. That means as a person, you will take always your, your aim is when you're losing control, you will take responsibility of the task that was given to you, or you accept it, or you want it to complete. And you're going to make sure that this result is guaranteed. So they're not, I mean, that is something that is sacred to you by default. It's a driver, how that develops. I mean, that's a different topic. We could spend the hours on that. But anyways, what happens is if this driver is activated, your subconscious behavioral patterns take over. And in this case, if people work with an e-caller, they might revert to pushing harder, longer, or on higher levels because they want to ensure that this result can be achieved for themselves. If you're a tryhard, that could be even to impress somebody else that you can come back and say, look what I've done with this doc in X amount of time. You see, I'm capable. You see, I'm competent.

All right, so with unconscious guided behavioral patterns, because you don't know what your control mechanism even consists of, on top of that, you're trying to learn all these new skills. And with talent, it is a combination of unique skills that you apply simultaneously. So we're expecting now, as doc trainers, to go into talent development and control mechanism behaviors of people. I mean, some people are still figuring out the four quadrants. We're going to add more on top of that. That's tough. And I think that's why the e-caller has a reputation. If I ask any high-level trainer, what do you think of the e-caller? They always respond to the same thing. When used by somebody who is competent, with somebody who knows what he's doing, somebody who has good intentions, I have no problem with that. They always answer the same question. But they don't answer the fact like, well, then how do you become competent? How do you apply this, Larry? How do you do three, four things at the same time? Well, let's then break it down to maybe start with doing one thing at a time. Sure. And maybe let's start finding a match for a dog that suits your speed and capacities of what you need to learn first. That said, it is true that you're going to get a malarm as a first dog. Some people can rapidly learn. That means as an indication of high talent. If you can learn new skills in a fast manner, in a fast way. But there's also a lot of people that are not competent. So let's go through the four components. Either you start and you are not competent. So you are struggling to learn a new skill. It's costing you a lot of energy. It's costing a lot of effort and a lot of time. All right. The second phase is you could be more or less competent. You can do it. It's still going to take a lot of energy. It's still going to take a lot of time from you. But at least you're hitting the ball at the right moment sometimes. All right. Great. More or less. Then you have confidence. That means you have put in the time. You have done the work. You are getting visible results. Yes, you are putting a lot of time in. But we can see that you are eligible. That you can do it. And then you have talent, which is you are the same as competent, but you can do it better, faster, and more efficient than the guy who was creating that competency because he didn't have the talent. You see? So talented and competent is not even visible sometimes with the eye. Like, oh, he's talented. He's competent. No, it's all about how much time did he take to learn all this. Yeah. Sure. And how fast can he do this? And does he get better and more efficient results

by doing even less than you? All right? So that's why dog training is almost, not almost, it's by default an individual process. Because, Larry, if somebody comes in, you will be dependent on the intellectual ability of your client. Right? Because you can talk to them about all these things and quadrants and psychology. You can explain it like what I'm explaining because you understand. That doesn't mean that they understand, let alone that they can understand this and also understand the skill, the mechanical skill that goes with what you want to achieve. And when you think of, you know, pop, a leash, a little pop or a leash correction or a leash manipulation, for some people that is, excuse me, there is a leash and I can pull this thing. How hard I have to pull it? I have no clue. This dog weighs 50 kilos. Do I have to pull it really hard? I guess so. Because else the dog is not going to feel anything. See, so for them, there's already, there's already a million dollar question. Like, what do you mean pop the leash or jerk the leash? Like there's so less, there's so little reference for them to like imagine. What does Larry mean with that? Apply a little bit of pressure. For some people, it's like blank. Nothing happens in their brains. It's like pressure. I don't know. But you have imagination. You have a vision on when you, when you're talking about this, I can see, I go into Larry's brain and I can tell that you're seeing this in front of you. You're, you're exactly in tune with what you tell. But for some people, that's not the case. So then when Larry talks, they're hitting a wall because they're like, I'm not even on the level that I know what to do with a leash. Let alone stimulate the dog, also pressure the dog, feel like what am I seeing signals where the dog is trying to scratch himself? Is he in a higher state of drive where I can amp up that e-collar a little bit? Is he in a lower state of drive where I have to put that lower and combine? This is, this is skill. This is all skill. So we'll have to start with skill development. There's no other way. We can talk about the good intentions all day. And we could say, buy this brand of e-collar or try the continuous button. So maybe the netiquil will be better for you to do a few nicks instead of the continuous look. This is all detailed stuff. This is all we can get into that once you've mastered some of those basic skills. But for some people, when you say basic skills, oh, that's probably reading the dog, right? Yes, reading the dog. But there's a huge difference between reading a dog from behind your desk and reading a dog in the moment

where you're handling this dog and this dog is acting weird and funny or doing things that you were not expecting and not start reading this dog. You have problems reading your own driver behavior, let alone somebody else's, this animal's behavior and your own behavior and how that's going to match what you need to do. And this is where the whole problem starts is we have always been taught from a traditional standpoint of view, teach the dog the mechanics, teach the dog how to sit, teach the dog how to, yeah, okay. So how do I teach the dog how to sit, put the food, raise the hand or use the leash, the pressure. These, like the most basic thing that I'm saying here now, for some people, this is already skill development. How do you put a piece of food in your hand? That is skill development. I have to like explain in a class. I was like, yeah, the food, yeah, the wrist control, it's very important on how you manipulate, how you get technique from a dog. How do you hold the food? Do you hold it here? Do you hold it here? Do you open it? Do you, oh, why? I didn't even think of that. That, yeah, maybe that's the first question. How do I hold a piece of food? Getting another trainer, phenomenal trainer who's on my team. She does it all with open hand. So the food's here in the open hand and she's like guiding the dog with the open hand, but I'm here using the closed hand. Can you imagine that somebody coming in and seeing the both of us says, what are you doing guys? Is it open? Is it closed? How do you get the dog even to go with that and not eat it? And do you correct it then when he eats? You see, they have so many questions. And we're not even talking about multitasking. Just the basic of the basic skills. I think that the leash skills that I have seen over the years when I travel doing workshops, the leash skills, either the leash was in the hand and was not used. The hand just didn't move. They were just so focused on what this other hand was doing that this hand was completely out of the picture. So they're making it harder on themselves by holding a leash, not using that leash in any form or use whatsoever because they're so focused on this one thing. And on the other hand, then when you ask them to apply leash skills, the finesse of this leash skill was like, it was bad. It was bad. And if you attach on that leash a piece of equipment that has an impact, a direct impact on a dog communication-wise and sensitive-wise, well, now, again, this is a recipe for problems because you're asking leash skills, but what's attached to the neck of the dog can have a huge impact. Either the dog is sensitive or he's in low drive, right?

He's very focused on you. You start popping this thing. So this manipulation, he feels this is coming from you. He gets insecure. You're like, oh, what's going on? They told me to pull this leash in because I need to get him closer. The dog has given you like another response as in an opposite reflex, whatever. Oh, damn. What are you going to refer to? Analytics. How do you analyze the situation and you apply some of your other skills to adjust this? Big problem. Big problem, Larry. Because we're expecting way too much. And because for us, it's a norm, but it's not. Well, you hit on a really, you hit on a great point there, Nino, because that, 100%, we do expect way too much from people. I'm getting ready to put out a video today for my private group that is literally just how to teach a dog how to follow food. Just like you said, because the things that we take for granted, the average person can't do. So I ask people, we have to start from ground zero. The ultimate basic foundation. What is that? Everyone will say, well, sit down places. No, no, no. We can't do anything until you could just keep your dog still. You can't even keep your dog still. That's a problem. Okay? That's the lowest of the low, most simple thing. Just have your dog with you where it's not all over the place. Like I literally start there. Right? And then... Larry, take it a step further without the dog even. So you have to visualize how this works without a dog because the dog's going to already add stress on you. It's going to add pressure. Fast, man. You got a hungry dog in front of you. What is a hungry dog going to do? Try to jump on you. I smell it. I'm starting to push. Just this push and this sense of urgency. Now there's this, you know, time. I need to move fast because he's hungry. He's hungry. He wants something. I don't want to lose his attention. I got his attention. Now let me do something. Sorry I interrupted you, Larry. Just thought of this as... No, no. I interrupted you first. Just thought of it as, okay, this is great. But even the prerequisite to this is actually without a dog. But... And listen, no one's touching on that stuff. It's the truth. No one's touching on it. No. No. And I'm so glad you said that, Nino, because the longer I work with people, the more I realize some of the most simple things that we take for granted, people don't get. Well, I just did a group yesterday, you know, and I was telling someone, first, we have to get them to follow the food. The dog doesn't know how to even follow the food. So we can't manipulate positions. He's not ready. I said, so get him to follow the food. And someone who's done a great job with this dog, he said,

I don't really know what that means. I said, okay, all right. Yes, that I have to think about those things. We have to show everything, how you hold the food, the size of the food, what you're using, everything. And we're bypassing all of that stuff and putting an e-collar on the dog. And that's what- They're coming to visit you, Larry. They're coming to visit you not to teach them how to hold a piece of food. They were going to see you for your expertise. Why are you coming to see Larry? Larry's the expert in e-collar training. You wrote a book about e-collars. You have, you always, you know, talk about them. We do not do a podcast about e-collars. It's not unthinkable that somebody's going to pick up the phone tomorrow and call Larry for an e-collar session. Then they come to your class or they come to your house and you actually see that this person actually got to start from scratch. So instead of doing an e-collar training, you taught them how to put food in their hand and hold it and how big they have to cut this piece. So you could see it also what that does to people and their confidence. So they thought they were ready. Hey, we got the tool. We bought it. It's the best one on the market. Look what we got. To be honest with you, you got to start holding the leash first and of course that's also hard because somebody wants the expertise. You want to give it. You're eager. We got to go from scratch here. Sorry. And this process is going to take time. But today, people don't have time. Look at what TikTok is. Swiping, swiping that stuff. Swipe, swipe, swipe, swipe. You can't stop this thing, man. It swipes all over. Now dog training is like, all right, this working? Is it working or not? All right. When I'm going to see the results, I got people in the, in the MVPs, like my highest class, the program, the master program. After two weeks, hey, when can we start fading this? When can we start doing this? You're literally learning to put one foot in front of the other and now you want to fade. You want to go to the advanced so the class goes from super basic to super advanced. They want to skip all that. You want to go in 10 days. Let me try the advanced stuff. Skill development does not work with that. Even if you're talented, it's still going to take time to make that combination. But what do we do, Larry? You tell me. So people here were eager. Let me hear, let me hear how you use it. Let's go very technical how to use it. I think majority was going to go, what are they talking about? What are they talking about here? You want to run out, you want to know how to make a dog faster? Hear, hear this out. Put it on the rising. Then as soon as you say the command,

you start pressing it. As soon as he hits the position, you release that button. But now let me tell you how fast the rising goes. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. All right. So unless your dog can already move into that position in less than one and a half seconds, you're going to be blasting this dog. Right? Okay. So here, I just told you a secret. It's useless. It's useless because your dog can't move in that position in one and a half, two seconds. And if you are not super, super focused on the fact that when you even see he's going to stress out because of this time pressure that he's having in that avoidance, which you explained, he knows how to escape it. But he feels like, mm, not going to make it. Do you have the skill then to analyze, oops, I have to release this right away and come in with a positive to end this on a positive note? Like all these things, these little details that go into place. Amen. Look, we can talk about it and I can generally have no problem sharing that stuff. Sure. The last thing I want now is people going on the rising. Hey, that's what Nino said to make your dog faster. I don't know. That's what might be an option when you've hit those competencies, when you're able to combine multiple skills. Now let's... Oh, I'm assuming for you, I know for me, everyone starts at the lowest, the basics. All the little things you described, that's where we start, right? I'm assuming you're the same way with everyone you work with. That's no exception. No exception. I hope everyone hears that. I hope everyone hears that. I had the honor this weekend to share, you know, my weekend with a phenomenal person, a multiple world champion, high level. We'll have him on our Facebook soon and on the classes. Look, when we talk, I don't see, I'm not talking about, like, yeah, of course, I talk about his titles, but when we train, you think I would say something because he's a world champion that I wouldn't say something that I would see that he would need? You think they come out the blocks and everything's blazing, everything's super on point, everything is imperfection? When he says, Nino, take out your dog, you think that it's going to be faster than the fastest video he's ever seen or whatever? No, we're going to see the real stuff is that I also make mistakes. Oh, miss that one. Oh, skip the beat over here. That was a little sloppy. Got to do that again. So, this is feedback that you need to always embrace from anyone. As once a student that saw me do a workshop and he was already a student, so he invited me to his club to do the workshop. And then I was taking out Rocky for a demo and I said, hey, Pat, what do you think, man? Did you like it? He said, yeah, it was really good. By the way,

he said, man, I didn't want to tell you and I actually feel bad but, you know, there was a point where your dog wasn't completely sitting and he said, ah, I didn't want to, I said, what are you talking about? You think you would embarrass me when you would say that? You really think that? That wouldn't embarrass me? I would actually, thank you, Sam. It's great because sometimes you can't see it all, you can't know it all, you don't have it all. So, I don't see any problem with that. If you can't take that, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, if you don't, if you want to do workshops, you won't want to, you're afraid to expose yourself or to make a mistake, don't do the workshops. You want to podcast live, you're afraid to say something wrong, don't do the podcast. And it's why videos are so important, Nino, and I tell everybody I work with, I got 600 videos on YouTube, there's not a video that I look at where I don't see a bunch of things I could have done better, a bunch of mistakes I made with the timing or anything because as humans, if you're not really thinking about it, we tend to do things a little fast and put together and at the same time, which isn't perfect for the dog, right? And so, if you don't think about those things, we tend to get into those habits, at least I do. And so, the things that I preach against all the people that I work with, if I don't pay attention, I'll do it too. You know, I'll do it too. But, yeah, that's great stuff. I mean, you, listen, I coach kids basketball, right? I work with my son all the time, especially today because of people like Steph Curry, everybody wants to shoot three-pointers, right? And I'm a basketball junkie and I preach to my son and my players, guys, you develop your touch inside the paint, three feet from the basket, four feet from the basket, that's where you become a great shooter, okay? That's what builds the foundation. When you get great at that and you develop that touch, that feel, that's when the three-pointers come. But if you practice beyond three-point range, you develop a lot of bad habits and then you'll never have that touch. And it's the same thing with the dog. You have to develop that touch in the most basic, simple, realistic way that anyone can do. But it has to be there to move further, you know? I agree. But I guess we should get into some of the questions. You know? I guess we should get into That brings us to one more thing. One more thing about this, Larry. Let's say you are on that track. You are going into, you understand that skill development in multiple areas is going to help you elevate your game plan for the e-collar. Who's going to make the assessment? Who's going to say,

you're on the right track, this is it? Unless you have a coach. But who these days has a coach? No, no. You have a dog training advisor. So this person tells you, gives you some advice, you take it or leave it. Coaching means That's giving you two weeks. Taking your dog for two weeks and giving it back to you and giving you an hour. This is the button you press. That's a problem. That's a big problem. It's an automatic failure. You know? It's a failure. You know? It just, you can't win doing that. The industry can't win. The owner can't win. And the dog can't win. And in the end, we're all going to lose because of that. It's just a fact. Oh, yeah. Someone with your skill level, doing what you do with the dogs, the way they look, it's coming out of your mouth about preaching the most basic fundamentals that you have to do and your people have to do. I hope that really resonates with people. You know what I mean? I really do. Because you're doing a very high performance dog. They look phenomenal. But it's not just you now. Now there's more and more people that I personally know that are doing great things, not with just Malinois, with everyday pet dogs that are looking phenomenal. And so I hope they understand they didn't get like that by putting the e-collar on the dog. No, no. They had to first learn how to hold a piece of food, how to hold their hand. They had to do that. There's no getting away from that stuff. There just isn't. You have any questions you want to get to, Nino? Yeah. Let me open up the question list. We might not be able to go through all of them, obviously. But let's just say I didn't read them all in advance, but I do have them ready. So somebody, and well, you actually already talked about this one, so we can skip that. Okay. How can the stim, and I think this is a good question. How can the stim be used as a reward marker and a correction at the same time? I think that does give a lot of confusion that, you know, we do perceive, we can use stim as a reward or use stim as a correction. Now, I'd like you to, you know, elaborate on this one first if you can. So what does that do for you this question as stim reward, stim correction? Could you explain that? Yeah, sure. Okay. I'm not really using the stimulation as a reward. Okay. Maybe right in the beginning, depending on the dog, especially if it's had a bad experience, maybe, I may use the low-level stim as a tap feed, tap feed, tap feed, depending on the dog and the situation. But that comes with reading the dog and have done many, many dogs with the e-collar before, knowing what the dog had been through. Right? So for me, it's mostly going to be negative reinforcement in the beginning through the teaching phase.

So I'm very simple. My ultimate goal, my ultimate goal is that the dog is reliable with the e-collar on when it's off-leash when needed. That I can call the dog because that's the people that I work with, that's what they want. Okay? With that being said, to stop a behavior, absolutely very, very simple. If your dog is digging in the yard, it's chasing a deer. Very simple. But where people fail with that, Nino, is people get caught up on this low-level stuff. Everybody wants to preach low-level and they're very proud that, oh, I only use low-level. I never use high-level. Well, guess what? If you're going to try to stop a behavior with low-level, you're going to fail. And eventually, you run the risk of your dog getting truly hurt or killed. What do I mean by that? People talk about dialing up all the time. Okay? I don't do that myself. I'm just telling you what I do. Once my dog is trustworthy and I know that I could take it without a leash attached, it's wearing an e-collar, we're out in public, that e-collar is set at the appropriate level for that what-if moment. What if my dog chases a deer? What if my dog runs after a cat into the street and there's a car coming? Right? I am not putting it on a low-level that the dog was trained around my house and then going up and utilizing that when the dog takes up and start dialing up. The second you start dialing up, you lost the opportunity to stop that behavior permanently. Your timing is off and when you start trying to punish a behavior or stop a behavior with low levels and you continue to go up until it works, the dog can adapt to take the higher levels with no effect. So to stop a behavior, you start high, you end it, you'll never have to go high again. Once or twice, that's it, you'll be able to go low and that's why I put the story in there about Jesse, the dog that was living on the streets and would chase cats and stuff. That's why I put the story in there in my book. Short chapter, very, very exact what I did to get him to stop chasing cats because he was going to live in a home that had cats, right? First time was the highest level. Second time was less than half the level. Never had to do it again. But if I start low, try to get Jesse to stop chasing cats and keep going higher, eventually, those higher levels are going to have no meaning. Going to have no meaning, right? So negative reinforcement, punishment, very different, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah, I've got to put in my plug. Sorry. Yeah, Larry, so what you're saying basically is that the state of drive, so where the dog is in, will always reflect the output that is given. is that correct? Say that again, you know? So, so the state of drive the dog is in is always the indication of the output

that should be used. So if the dog is in his highest, highest state of drive, but you want a different, and maybe we should point that out, you want a completely different behavior than the one that he's doing then, yes, you're going with a high stim, right? Sure. The high stim at that point will not result in necessarily wanted taught behavior before. It will just do something else, and the something else is he stops chasing whatever he is chasing. But, and here comes the difference with a correction on a training context, mediocre drive level is when you apply that correction then because a dog goes out of line or he does something that you did not want, you give a correction, that should result immediately and the command that you've taught the dog. And this might be a very complex command even. Let's say, for example, you see the dog to go into a healing position, focus up, right? He's doing something completely different. He gets a correction in high drive. So let's say that takes place on a higher stim level. But then, the difference is this then should completely go into that wanted behavior, complex behavior that you've taught the dog before. So, and that is something that's a distinction we have to make because what you refer to as chasing the deer or the cat, it is actually outside of training, dressage context. That means at that point you want to stop the animal from taking that action or ongoing action. So the stimulus will put this dog into a different state of mind and have him, you know, try something else. and that something else, whatever he does makes him stop chasing that cat, deer, whatever. And he's prepared for that. There's no negative blowback from that. The dog has been prepared. So I want to read Kashi's response here. He says, this is a changed stance from Larry's earlier conversation with Ivan where he said he would condition the dog to a level of correction before using it as a correction. That's not true, Kashi. He may have assumed that but that's not true at all. Never said that. I don't condition the dog to a super high level of correction. I don't have to. Okay? But when I jump into that intermittent stage and I'm using higher levels when the dog doesn't respond, maybe that's what you're referring to. So for example, two or three days of conditioning the dog on low level, right? Now when I jump in that intermittent stage where I'm working in those four different combinations we're talking about, now when we're out, say, and the dog is off leisure, he's on a long line, and I call the dog and he doesn't respond and I'm following up with a higher level stimulation, I'm not talking about blasting the dog. Yes, it's higher level than the conditioning phase, right? But that's realistic. I'm not talking

about stopping a behavior, right? So if I'm out there and I call the dog and he doesn't come and I follow up with the e-collar, I'm not going corrective measures, super high level, like don't ever do that again. So I think that's where you're getting confused. I've always been very clear on that. And if you go through the book, you go through any video, I can't be any more clear on that. So from that conversation, a lot of it was twisted like that I'm trying to use low levels all the time and I'm always using the e-collar before the command and I'm trying to stop behaviors, you know, preaching low level. No, that's not even the case. Many people do preach that. I'm not one of them. I've been very clear about what I do with it and that's never changed. Never changed at all, especially when you have, I do believe in preparing the dog to accept that higher level correction because I've seen what so many average dogs do when they receive that high level correction for the first time without being prepared. We're not talking about well-bred high drive Malinois here. We're talking about everyday dogs that fall apart when they get hammered with the e-collar with no preparation, fall apart, get destroyed. And I've been dealing with them for years, for years. And I've showed them, I have showed them, I've showed the videos of the dogs showing up. You've heard the stories from the people explaining what was done with them, why they look like this, why when the e-collar comes on they're shaking and they can't even function because of what they've experienced. So I've never strayed from there, Kashi. That's not true. Not even close to what I'm explaining now. Go ahead. I have a question when we get to it that's a little more specific on adding punishment to a specific behavior. Does that make sense, Nino? It definitely does to me. It definitely does to me. But because you referred to this specific conversation of can you prepare a dog for a high stim if you customize them to lower stim? That's what this whole debate was about. Is that correct in a nutshell? Is it true or not? Yeah. That you can prepare a dog with low stim so he can take the hit when it does come a little bit higher. Now, first of all, I did see parts of that conversation. And the first thing I thought was why are we talking for hours about something that is and will always be arbitrary. You have zero scientific proof, nor you, nor him, of what that dog thinks. No dog has ever came back and told you. But what you do have is proof of your results. And that is your validation. It's not what the dog wrote to you in an email later, what he said. Sure. It's about are you getting this dog to the point where he is trustworthy, where he does not suffer from wearing

an e-collar, where Larry's approach was productive and was helping the dog in a time efficient manner with tangible, visible results. If the answer is yes, Larry, by default, you are right. There's no way you can fight me. You can say, Nino, why do you move and slide with your dog all that time? You know, I can do that without. Congratulations. Do it without. You see? So it's not about the wrong and right. And that's what I feel sometimes when these kind of discussions hit up. Then I'm always going like either you put trust in somebody. If a client comes and meets Larry, they say, hey, Larry, I really like your results, your human approach, your honesty, your, you know, your compassion with the dog. So you're not just going to be brutal. And that is my validation as a client that I give to you. I allow you to do these things based on your expertise. And if you want to stem the dog on the lowest first to prepare for the high or you don't want to do that, to be honest with you, I could not care less. I could not care less. So I didn't understand that whole conversation. Why was it so important that you would say something that maybe you, you know, that was unclear to him and for you that was unclear why it kept going back to that same conversation topic like it was meaningless. It was meaningless because what you do, like you said, there's different reads, there's different response, there's different actions you could do. There's so many things that could lead to a result that if you wanted them to do the aftermath on what exactly was it that made the difference in your appearance and with the color and what are you guys talking about? But here's the issue. Here's the one thing that was ignored with that conversation. you know, we have to focus on the human, the average human with the average dog. What's going to benefit them? So the way of only, can you get your dog to recall 100% if you only use the e-collar as an aversive like you would a leash after the fact when the dog doesn't respond? Absolutely. 100% without any problems to the dog. If you do it, if I do it, but the problem is when the average person tries to do that, they've been trying to do that since the 70s and the 80s and they have failed hundreds and thousands, if not millions of dogs. They have failed the dogs because they tried to use the e-collar as an aversive only when the dog didn't do. Right? That's my whole point against going that way and promoting that style. Why I do things the way I do, which again, by the way, I didn't invent or create. I'm just taking it with better people before me have done, but I seem to be the focus because I guess I get a lot of attention for it and I get that, but I've always been very clear. I never invented anything.

I never created anything. This isn't the Larry Crone method. These are things that I have taken from better people before me that I have found work best for the average dog and the average dog trainer, the average owner, the average dog owner where you're never, where the average person isn't going to destroy their dog because the second someone says, oh, I don't have to condition or prepare the dog or teach him. I just call him when he doesn't come, I blast them. Then we continue to do what we've been doing for the past 50 years. And that's why the tool is in the light that it is in so many places. You know? Yeah. I think, you know, that's what it is. And the e-caller can give you faster, better, more efficient, more reliable results. So everybody wants to know the secret. And Larry attached his name to an e-caller user, has incredible results, has saved a lot of dogs from a horrible life without any freedom, et cetera. So of course, you're, you know, Larry's and e-callers, and especially if you write a book, you become one with the caller. You become the face of the e-caller, not just because you talk, but because the others try to hide. That's what I'm trying to say. Why isn't the world champion also talking about his experience? Because he can't. Maybe he wants to, but he can't. So Larry has to. And Mr. Freestyle Nino, he can also because he's not in an organization that shuts his mouth. So we're like, that leaves us like, yeah, we're making these conversations happen. So, yeah. Nino, I just had an idea. I'm not a big TikTok guy, but I just had an idea of a TikTok video I'm going to do. And I think I'm going to get more of it, more views than any video I've ever done or you've ever done. I'm going to take your video of you doing your moves without the dog that you got so ripped apart about by so many. I'm going to throw on maybe some speedos or some tights or something, and I'm going to redo that video. Are you serious? I think I'm going to. I'm going to have to be doing a little drinking probably, but I think I'm going to do it. All right. It's going to be. I'll take you up to that. Yeah. All right. I have a good question here, too. That's about a very specific video that I put out. Ara says, in the video where you taught Dante not to nail Luca during a ballgame after you conditioned him to the collar. Did you do any intermittent training after the conditioning phase, or is that more of a pet dog general recall proofing phase? That's a good question, Ara. So I showed that video for a reason. Again, because a lot of people say, oh, Larry doesn't use the collar to stop the behavior. I had to show people. Not true. And it's not the first time I've done it. I showed the same thing

with Mango. So the video was I took all four dogs out. Dante's young. I know I'm going to throw the ball and Dante has no chance on getting it from my other dogs. And he's going to get frustrated and he's going to come behind one of the dogs, probably Luca, and he's going to try to bite him. Well, I'm going to stop that today. I didn't do a lot of e-collar training with Dante because I didn't have to. He's very, very well trained to where I went through the e-collar training process very fast. Just so he was trained to understand, again, how to remove it, how to turn it off. He gets it. Right? So I spent two days conditioning him, five, ten minutes, a couple times a day. Then I did very little work in that intermittent phase because, again, with him, I didn't have to. And so if I give him a command, and again, this goes back to our previous conversation we were talking about. If I give him command, he's almost always going to do it very fast. So he doesn't provide me a lot of opportunity to follow up with the e-collar and teach him through some repetitions to how to avoid it or turn off. Does that make sense? So I took two things with him where I know sometimes he's a little slow to respond, and I took advantage of teaching him with the e-collar on that, no, when I tell you to do this, you have to do this. The two things were sometimes when we're outside and we're done training or playing, if I let him take his tug or his ball off the field, off the grass, when we're going inside, sometimes he'll turn around and run to go lay down on the grass. And I'll say, let's go, Dante, and he'll blow me off. So I knew that was a great opportunity to show him, you can't blow me off, right? The other opportunity was when we come in the house, if I need to hit him go in his crate, sometimes when we come in, I'll tell him Dante kennel, and he'll run past his kennel and not listen immediately. So I took advantage of that. These are two great times to utilize the e-collar to show him, hey, buddy, when I tell you this, you have to do it. So I prepared him. We did all our playing and training. He had the e-collar on. It wasn't being used. But then when we get to go inside, he's coming with me and he runs back to go lay on the grass, which he really likes to do, which I will let him do quite often, right? But this time I said, let's go, Dante, and he didn't come. So right at that moment, all they had to do was tap the e-collar. Okay, now I know what the next question is. Then he got up and he came to me because he knows I'm serious. You can't blow this off, right? Now I could talk to you and communicate with you when you're over there without a leash on.

That's very powerful to a dog. Very, very powerful. Now I know what the next question will be. Well, what level were you on? Everybody's worried about levels, right? So let's say when I was doing the conditioning phase with Dante, let's say I was on a level eight and nine low levels with the e-collar technologies. That's where I started, right? Now, when I knew Dante may blow me off and he's over there, I was on a 20, which is still super low, right? Not a huge difference between a 10 and 20 when it comes to the dog or the sensation of the e-collar, but it's enough to let him know, oh shit, like a leash pop. How hard would the leash pop be if you said Dante, let's go and he didn't come? Um, that's how hard the e-collar was about as hard as the leash pop would have to be. Doesn't have to be hard in that situation, right? But I already had it set where I knew it would be effective for that dog and his level of training, right? Now, let's say I know Dante likes to chase the garbage truck, which he doesn't, but let's make believe he does. And I'm going to go outside and I'm going to play ball with him outside my house and it's garbage day. And I put his e-collar on because I know the garbage truck may come down the street. Well, guess what? The e-collar is not going to be on a 20 like it was when I knew he wouldn't come to me the first time I call him. It's going to be on a very high level that's going to stop him in his tracks if he goes after that garbage truck. And he's already been prepared to know exactly what that is. There's no confusion there, right? There's no confusion. It's very clear to the dog. So one of the biggest mistakes that I see, and you probably do too, is people get very confident because they think the e-collar is a magic wand. They have the long leash on the dog or the leash on the dog and the dog's coming to them every time they call them. And after one day of training, two days of training, they say, this is great. When they haven't really trained the dog well before they put the e-collar on. Now they take the leash off and they're calling the dog and it's not coming. And now they're raising, raising, raising, raising. And now they blast the dog and it comes to know the dog's barely been getting any training before that and they screw the dog up. And this is something that I see seven days a week, 365 days a year. So I hope that answers your question pretty clearly, Ara. Good question. So my question to you would be, how fast is he coming back? From when he's coming back? Oh, immediately. Yeah. So now there's no more e-collar in when I go out. No, no. That's a great follow-up. The, this, the speed between him

turning, that's already the recall. As soon as the dog gives up the action and goes and like turns his head towards you, you have your recall basically. But how fast does he run towards you? So my question basically is, does the e-collar affect his speed running towards you or is the speed completely dependent on the reward you have on the backend? The speed is dependent on the training that goes in before. So I'm always going to make sure he's going to come to me fast because he's going to do everything fast because he's trained. Because you use rewards. You use rewards. Right. Right. Yeah. So this is important. This is what I was looking for. Yeah. And you guys, it's fortunate enough that when it comes to my own dogs, especially Dante, you guys have seen all the training. Everything I ever did with them is on video. This way people know. Right. And you know what people kept asking, you know, hey, when are you going to start the e-collar training? When are you going to start the e-tri-collar? Six months old. We're still doing all food work, all ball work, having a great time. When are you going to start the e-collar training? Right. That's all people care about. Well, hey, how about paying attention to what we're doing with the food, what we're doing with the ball? How about paying attention to how happy he is to be working with me? Right. That e-collar is going to go on him not to speed anything up. I don't have to. If I wanted to. If I wanted to, I can, but I don't have to. The e-collar. Oh. Hello. Larry. You froze up on my part. Hello. Hello. It's a. It's a. You guys, are you still here? Oh, yeah. He's he's he's frozen. So, yeah. All right. So let me carry on with the conversation because I think Larry, I mean, Larry is the host. So I think he needs to refresh. All right. So, yeah, the speed is very important of the recall because let's say you have a slow recall. The dog can always change his mind along the way. Then if he doesn't believe that there is something on on the back, you know, on the back end of his recall that he can, you know, that he can win. So because if you don't have that fast recall, let's say he comes back slow and then he sees something else again. And you see, he needs to be committed like straight to you. The focus needs to lie with you. And you can only achieve that by continuously preparing your dog with great rewards and play and stuff like that. So, you know, what Larry says is he already has a recall. So the backup is the e-caller, but the recall was established before. The recall was done with food, was done with balls, was done with play.

Like, and then, you know, you can use your e-caller as a backup plan, which you also install with a mechanical introduction first. So you call the name. The mechanical will give directions. If he doesn't respond or if he responds too slow. And as soon as he responds, you come out with a reward. So that's how you create a fast recall and a very efficient one. Once you put the overlay in with the e-caller. So, of course, talking about something like that always sounds way more technical and harder than it is. Now, what is the, let's break this down. Let's break down the skill of a recall. That means you're going to set things up a little bit. So your imagination has to start working on how you're going to teach this dog that already has a good recall without any distractions. How are you going to teach this dog to then respond in a more distraction environment? That means you're going to take him out and there's going to be some scent that he can smell. There's going to be something new, something fresh. And that's when you're going to have the mechanical backup. You're going to have the reward on the back end, which you're always ready. As soon as he turns, you need to show him that stuff so he can speed things up. And you can introduce the e-caller later on. So that means as soon as you call the name, you're going to manipulate the dog towards you with mechanical directions. And later on, you compare that with e-caller overlay on top of it, like a little nick. And then in the last phase, you will call his name and then first give the e-caller tap and then the directions. So then the dog will tell you, do you understand that the e-caller nick is also giving you the directions you should be running at? And then never forget the reward because I was just explaining, Larry, that if you don't go for the fast speed, like recall towards you, he might do the same thing again along the way. So he needs to completely go into the behavior that you created before, which was when I call, you're going to win something. When I call, you're going to win something. So that e-caller nick that Larry gives, even on the high stim, puts dog back into that conditioned mode of when I run towards him, you know, I'm going to get what I want. So I avoided this, which is what you said by saying his name. You will not have to push anymore because he knows on the, what was your dog's name? Dante. Dante. So before the e is even pronounced, he's already turning. He's already on his way back. That's what Larry wants because the a that you want him to have that reflex of beat it. So he's in control.

The dog is in control in the end. And that's what it's about that. The dog believes I got this whenever he calls, whatever, whatever the command is, whatever task I get, I'm going to execute this task because I understand how to avoid the color stuff because you've introduced it to him and he's not stressed about it. And he only gets the good stuff. So at some point he's going to go like, got this doing it. I'm on it. And he's going to do it while looking happy and joyful because he knows that Larry put in the work and he only earned things. And he's controlling the positive and the negative reinforcements. How good is that? That's what the dogs want. They don't want to. They don't want you to make them do something. They want to do it. All you got to do is teach it and set it up for success. So don't go out there with a bunch of crazy dogs and then trying to test a recall with a young puppy. It is possible. We have actually videos in our program showing a recall with a very young puppy playing with another puppy. Like they're all over each other. Recall pup. They're shooting straight to you again. But of course you have to see what happened before that. And that was kind of an assessment risk we take with a puppy, with two puppies playing. Let's say they wouldn't have come. All right. Then that's just to see how solid is this recall already. And these two puppies just stopped playing instantly and went both to the handler. All right. So now you show or you show yourself like, hey, I'll put a really good foundation already on this pup. This pup is getting ready. Right. And then, you know, when this pup is ever going to wear a collar, he already knows his name. He already knows, you know, how to come back full speed. And then you introduce some mechanics and you just see it as a project that's going to take a little bit longer than a one week thing where your dog is going to shoot because you bought an e-collar. Who cares? You bought an e-collar. Put in that type of quality work and you will get the outcome of your dreams if you just put it in the right plan, the right scenario with the, you know, the right steps. And then you put it on the right output level. Now, like you said, Larry, then what output level is it? Well, depending on what state of drive, it was a recall when he was just smelling something. You can't blast him as if he was like almost about to open his jaws and eat the cat of the neighbors. That's going to be a different stem. It speaks for itself, but then Larry, how do I get access to the higher stem? Because my e-collar was actually set on the mediocre drive stem.

And that's where your choice of e-collars comes into play. Which e-collar allows you to play in two levels of drive where the dog might have needed a mediocre stem or might have needed a high stem? So unless you have the settings beforehand where you anticipate on these two types of drive and you have access to these remotes immediately, if you don't, well, you are F-U-C-K-E-D. Simple as that. Because you don't have the level to communicate with the dog at that point because too low, that's just going to go in. And he's not even going to feel it. He's not even going to feel that. So you got to be prepared, but you also got to be smart enough to not push on the wrong button when he's doing the stuff on the wrong or I mean in the lower drive. So how do you avoid pushing on the wrong button to put in again repetitions, quality work, to create that confidence on the lower settings, the lower drive, doing the multitask and doing all that kind of stuff. So don't go out there thinking because you can afford a collar that you can just go out there and use the collar and get the results like me, like Larry, like other people without putting in the work. You can't just bypass it all. You have to put in some of the same foundation. The smarter dog will learn it faster just as people. More talent means better results, faster results with less effort. But not every dog is super talented. So yeah, Larry gets in pets that take more time and I get dogs that I one, two, three sessions. They're like already flying. It's like crazy. And then people say it's the melon, isn't it? Well, yeah, of course this dog tends to be more talented than the other dogs at times, but that doesn't mean that it will exclude you from developing also the needed skill because the faster the dog is, the faster you got to be. Which brings us to the same problem. Are you fast and skilled and qualified enough? And some people are not fast enough. So then it doesn't matter if the dog is super talented or smart. You're just too slow. Yeah. So make the assessment. You got to make your own assessments, guys. Like who can make an assessment on your talent? Like we developed a talent scan. But who's going to fill that out? Me. Well, I don't know. The new students, they have to fill out their own assessment first based on, you know, questions. And then they can answer them in order of, you know, very likable or very, yes, very strong, but like a scale of five different points. You can fill that in. And that's going to give both of us, like if you want, okay, this is where you're at based on your own assessment.

And self-assessment is still the most valuable thing because if you assess yourself as a grad master, but you can't even hold the leash, so to speaking, well, then there's something wrong with the assessment. And we need to talk about you instead of your dog also. And that's why, again, it's an individual process and needs to be individually assessed. Same goes for the dog. So what kind of dog do you have? What kind of drives does he represent? What kind of states does he go in? How does he respond? Is there regression in the dog? Is there a prey drive in the dog? Is there a huge food drive in the dog? Like what assets are we going to use? If he's eaten, how much of a value does this food reward have then for this dog? Let's say you've taught your recall consistently with food. Now you go out there, little Bobby got his whole meal, and now he's about to get in trouble and you recall him, but his stomach is full. What does that do? You see, what is your plan then? If he doesn't need the food. So when a dog doesn't need something, we both know he's not so likely to go full in. So the speed's going to lower, the reaction time's going to drop, and you're going to use the e-collar to recreate what you once had. But some things can, maybe the dog is not ready at that point to use the e-collar as a stem where he speeds things up. All right? So first you have to see what kind of drives he also relates to if the food, if he's satiated, or if he doesn't like the ball or whatever. So your options also might be limited in speed of return, for example, in levels that you can apply because sometimes you know what happens, right? So I've met people with a lap, and they've introduced a collar by chasing a squirrel, and they zapped him. From then on, make no mistake, the dog, each time he felt a lower stem, he was going into slower motion. Even when it was used with positive reinforcements at the same time, he's like, still not having it. I don't like this sensation. There's something in that overall feeling, even in a low stem. Yeah, it was messed up. It wasn't supposed to happen that way right off the bat. Can you fix that? Absolutely yes. Absolutely yes. How? By putting in again the quality work without the collar first, by gaining the confidence of the dog in movement, by speeding up his movement process, by using an overlay mechanically, and then slowly also introducing the lower stem combined with the mechanical leash pressure that you gave. All right. You see, so you kind of go back to rebuilding the confidence of the dog.

There's no such thing as he is now messed up forever or whatever, unless you do that over and over again. Yeah, then you messed him up. But normally in these circumstances where something happens in high drive, and he gets too much of a blast, and you feel like, oh, he is really stressed out now, but don't worry about it. Just go back to what he's not stressed out about, which was playing with you, which was engaging with you, and doing all the fun stuff, and don't worry about it too much. People worry too much all the time. They think the dog, you know, gets a stem one time, and he's gone. He's wasted. He's washed up. That's not the case. I've seen dogs come back from getting blasted by, you know, even like when they're not like yet in the highest drive, but they're setting on the e-collar was on the high. Like that one was prepared to deal with the most severe interaction of distraction where they were going to kill something. But I was like just looking at it or trying to maybe do an attempt. It gets blasted on that same level. That's not the same for the dog as if it was already opening his mouth, you see. And that's when the problem starts is because now they've given this dog a stem, and this dog was so shocked literally by it that it is now looking a little bit insecure, fearful even. Wow, what have I done? This e-collar destroyed my dog. Like putting that thing back in the drawer, I'm done with this, and what do you think? The dog's never going to return to his original level where he's not going to. Hey, you know what? That was a while ago, but that was damn fun the other time when I got the cat, and he's going to do it again. But these are things that happen on the daily, and also to get that remote out, like your reaction time, all these kind of things, or when, like what do you do when instant, when you do it, and you see no response. So people freak out. So what they do is they dial the thing up because they want to make sure they got enough juice when they need the juice because it takes time to dial the thing up, get it out of your pocket, and then make the adjustments. You're too late. So what happens then, the default setting is the high setting, and then people are doing something like, hey, that might have used a nick. Pop. Boom. Now they've nicked something on a high level where the dog was supposed to get a very low level. He messed it up again. But that's what happens is you will mess up. You think I never pushed on the wrong button? I have, of course, and so have you, Larry, and so have used them too long sometimes.

But because our foundation, always go back to that foundation because that was built strong enough, the dog always recovers. Right? 100%. Right. And yeah, if you don't want any of that, if you're like, I don't want any of this business while I'm pushing the wrong button, having a chance to create some kind of insecurity, yes, then don't use the collar. But if you don't use the collar, don't expect to have that same kind of freedom and security than somebody else. Or you're going to have to be looking at a complete different skill set and also make a new expectation plan on when your dog's going to be ready to do things that other dogs have been doing for a year already, for example. So, and these are concessions you will have to make. So, that said, Larry, I am actually, you know, in the making, I'm about like maybe one, maximum two weeks. I'm going to publish a complete positive only program as well. So, all of a sudden are you against? No. Out of respect for the people that are able to use their skill and not go to tools, they also deserve a platform and showcase what that will take. But not in a, hey, I hate you because you use the collar. No. In mutual respect. Hey, this is really good. We should do more of that as well. And maybe you can make your own conclusions and see if you want to be more balanced, if you want to get more towards those techniques. It's whatever you want, Larry. Like you said, people do whatever they want, but they got to have a chance to learn. Well, Nina, the thing is what you do in like the purely positive, the positive reinforcement thing, right? It's important. It's really important because I know for me, showing a lot of that stuff, it's taken a lot of people that were 100% against e-collars in any kind of aversion, right? To look a little deeper and say, okay, wait a second. And they start looking a little further and they change their stance on a lot of things because the perception of so many people that are anti-anything, anti-e-collar, anti-everything, is they have an unrealistic perception of how most good trainers use tools and punishment and corrections, however you want to word it, right? They just picture, why would you teach the dog how to sit with an e-collar when you could just use food? Well, most people don't. That's just what you have in your head. It's an imagination. You know, I don't know anyone who does that, right? If I wanted to, could I without making the dog look bad or feel bad? Absolutely. But I don't. So I'm teaching everything with food. I use so much positive reinforcement and I show it.

And that has opened the doors to a lot of people. Listen, I've had people come to my seminars for years sneaking in, not telling people they're anti-e-collar, positive reinforcement only people and coming in to hate me and disrupt things. And it never happened. And at the end, they'll say, I want to tell you, I came here to hate you and cause a problem. And I didn't know that people use this tool this way. You're going to fault me for that and tell me I'm using it wrong? Sorry. You use it however you want. But I'm going to continue to try to educate people at a different way. You know, at a different way. And the second I find something better that works for most people, most dogs, I'll jump on as fast as you can imagine. You know, I will be on board because I just want what works best for everyone. Best for me, best for the people that I work with. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't I? You know? And so that's just the way I see things. Thanks. Thanks for, you know, telling that. And it seems like it's become a war almost where people trying to find that collusion or collision, I mean, between the good and the right. We are the, you know, I mean, sorry, the good and the bad. We are the bad because we use scholars. And then there's the good of the people that only have good intentions, only want to reward dogs and being supported by their governments and so on. So their backup is way bigger than our backup. Sure. Where we are dealing with the people that actually have collars, they're the ones that, yeah, they might have messed up here and there. They've got cut with given stims where the dog was yelling. Nobody's intention. It did happen. It was caught on tape. It was one of your guys, for example, or affiliated with your sport even. Might not even know the guy. He's in that same sport. I saw an asshole doing that to a dog. You're like that too, right? Because I've seen you use a collar and I've seen that other guy use a collar in that same sport. Yeah, those were a bunch of jerks. So, yeah, that's what you get. It's called stigma. Yeah. And it's hard to get rid of that. But on the other hand, how many people do you know? How many names can you drop right now where you say elite, high drive Malinois, competing, winning, only positive? And not just the ones hiding it where they say they do, but they actually don't. Like the real ones. They show you the training, show you everything. Also open book inside. Like you want to come see it? Not where they're like, oh, well, you can't come train with us. We're exclusive. Well, you can't just, you know, walk in here. You got to be part of the team.

You got to be part of the game. You got to shut up, man. Just you're hiding stuff, right? We know you are. And I have a problem with that, seriously. I don't have a problem with people that want to protect their integrity because, you know, they can't just go out there and say things they are. But let's not also fake your way into making people believe you're all positive, man. You got the results because you've used the color just as I do. So you're just not saying it. Hey, listen. How do you feel about that? I know purely positive training facilities that rake in the money that I know for a fact are not even close to purely positive training facilities. Yeah. But because that's how they're advertised and that's all they show. They do really well with people that are very anti-everything. You know what I mean? And that's insane. And, you know, another issue that we touched on a little bit in a prior post, Nino, was when these people get puppies and they give way too much freedom too early and they're creating so many problems and bad habits with the dog. And then the first response is, and I cringe when I hear this, you know, I think I need an e-collar because my dog doesn't listen to this. My dog doesn't listen to that. Well, yeah, that's a tough one. You trained it not to listen, right? When you're constantly telling your puppy, no, no, no, no, yelling his name, this, this, this, this, because you refuse to give that dog management and give him the appropriate freedom as he can handle it. Then you turn to the opposite direction and throwing an e-collar on the dog at five or six months old because he's out of control or he gets to be nine months old where you start seeing the real dog. It just keeps spiraling out of control, you know, and these are things that people aren't talking about. Why are people doing this with the tool, you know? So what do they need? They need, they need a blueprint. That's a problem. But they think because now there's access to the internet and the internet type in e-collar training, type in dog training, whatever. So much information. YouTube, like YouTube has, you know, I've read it last week. Google YouTube, the owner of YouTube, they have, they're like, there was like gigantic multinationals, but there was like that. The biggest of the biggest worth, $800 billion, whatever. Can you imagine how much information there is on YouTube just on dog training? It is enormous. It is huge. It's crazy. But how do you filter that?

If you start, and we've all started, wasn't the worst idea, like being in a position, knowing that there was information out there, but not finding it, not knowing how to access it, not knowing how to start. So then, yeah, the guy next door does have a dog. Why not listen to him? He at least has a dog. And if he's gotten the least of a bit result, yeah, why not go with what he says and show that you're humble and a beginner and you want to do what, you know, what advice people give you, you're starting off wrong. Really? That's where all the problem starts. So now you got a few advisors, but they're not really experts in the field of the breed that you have. They're not experts in the vision or they can help you coach you in the vision that you had before you bought the dog. And now you'll be doing things that are not going to fit in the picture that you had for this dog. And now you're off rails. You're getting disencouraged. You think, hey, maybe this dog doesn't have it. Maybe I don't have it. The doubts start sneaking in. You go more on YouTube trying to fix things. Then you come across this thing that says e-caller. And then there's people promising a lot of results or getting results. And then I see that there's definitely a way to try to connect with that. And I like the resort of, man, let's try this e-caller here and see how that, because these guys seem to be really good at it. And people want to spend money on callers. The caller is not cheap. They want to spend the money. And if you look at the franchises that use e-callers, I mean, everything's geared on, I mean, it's so reliant on that caller. So the caller has become like a virtue. Hey, if I could train with my knee collar, you can be a professional trainer. You can take in boarding trains. You can help other people. All you need to do is just push that button, right? There was no skill development talked of anywhere close. It was all about the push of this button. All about, you know, the rapid, like you say, rapid results. And then it all falls into, you know, like a cardboard house. It just falls flat because you didn't have the foundation. The dog was not able to rely on previous, you know, good interventions of yourself, like good, solid foundations. Once the thing starts falling apart, you're in trouble. Now it goes into fixing mode for the rest of your days. And then they get in a new dog because they want to fix the problem of the dog by getting a new dog and regaining confidence of, now I'm going to do it the right way. I got this new dog. Now I'm going to hit it. I'm going to do this, that.

No, you're not going to do anything. You're going to do the same thing with somebody else. And it's going to lead to this. It's just the same or a different problem. So we got to make sure that there's a platform for people where they can go in, even with a prerequisite to owning a dog. And then like talk to them, coach them and work on this vision that they need to have before they get the dog actually. And when they get the dog, that this vision will help them establish this result within X amount of months. If it takes years, it's not a great plan because it can't take years. The dog's not going to last years. So it's got to be efficient in your approach. When you're talking efficiency, the e-collar always comes in trainer's arsenal of tools because it's such a great tool if utilized well. And we're going again with the cliches of if utilized well, if introduced and so on. But that's what it is. And people have all these questions. And I say, look, you have an e-collar. Yeah, I do. I do. How come you never have it with you? It's never on the dog. I want to make sure I do it right. So, well, do you really believe that if you're going to use this e-collar, it's always going to be right? No, just put it on. Put it on the low setting. You're going to push. I'm going to show you. I'm going to teach you how to push and how to do that combined with another skill. And you're going to take that jump. We're going to put it on this low level. But at least you're doing it. And this level will not mean a whole lot to the dogs. You're not going to see extreme changes. But at least you're working on that skill. And as long as it's in the drawer, you're not working on that skill. You're actually telling yourself, oh, man, this is such a huge step to go into. This is too much. I can't do it. I need somebody. Look, when I got in, the new police guys, some of them never had a dog before. And then we had like four months. And four months, these guys are operating a high drive dog. Yeah. They've never handled a dog. They don't have any experience. But on top of that, they're also in stressful situations dealing with other danger indications and stuff they need to take care of, other police skills. And they're all combining that in their training. They were, you know, exposed to e-collar training. So what is that? Like you got to be experienced to use an e-collar. No. But you got to be responsible. And you got to have coaching. And you got to understand what priorities to make in your training. And how to do this. As in, what is the plan? Well, you have the collar. Put it on the dog. Yes. What are you going to do with this?

Well, if you master this skill, this little lure skill, for example, on top of that, use the e on number one. Well, it's like from a level from number one to 100. It's just going to do it. Okay. Because I want to see that light lit up when you do it. So that means that shows me you're consciously using a button. The button doesn't mean anything to the dog because number one is not even scratching his hair. It doesn't do anything. But at least they're getting the confidence now. You could see also when is it going out? When is it litting? When is it? Are they processing this? What they're doing? And they'll tell you like, hey, I see that they're getting this. They're doing the push on the right time. They're releasing on the right time. The dog, like they already, the other skill is working well for them. They could still have vision on what's happening here and do something with this hand. It's completely different. So you help your dog with something on the left and the right's operating the collar. But this must be aligned with the left. And by lighting it up, by using the light so it's visible and stuff like that, or maybe even a tone maker, whatever it is, at least now we can coach people and see, hey, he's starting to get it. Because how else, if you give the collar at one point, I don't know when he's pushing. And then it's hard to only look at the dog. You have to have that feedback. You have to have that feedback before you can send the client home. And especially, again, the anti-low level people, I tell everyone when they finally get that e-collar, I tell my clients, I'll see you next week. I said, you're going to make mistakes this week. You're going to screw up in training. But the way we're doing it, you're not going to screw up the dog. So don't have that fear. And that's really, really important. Right? If you send the person home to stop a behavior and punish a behavior and the e-collar is jacked up, you're going to make mistakes. And, yeah, you're going to screw up your dog. But I do it in a way that is so simple for them, so little, one thing, one thing. And you're still going to screw it up. And I tell them, it's not because of you. Everyone does. But when I see you next week, I'm going to see where the mistake is, and we're going to fix it. And you're going to get it. And then you'll never forget it. But we're going to do it in a way where, don't worry, you won't mess your dog up. I promise. And no one ever does mess their dog up. You know what I mean? Because like you said earlier, Nino, it's one of the best things you said.

As simple as it is for us, because we've been doing it so much, I've had professional athletes like pro bowl football players that can't put all those little things together. It's like they can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Because although it is easy because we're doing it so often for so long, it's not easy for people starting out. And they have to stop and think about it. It's not easy. And these are the little things that are being overlooked by so many trainers when they throw that remote to a person and send them home. Can't do it. You can't do it. You have to be a better teacher. A better teacher. And we can't take for granted that these people know nothing. Nothing. And we have to start at the lowest level. And I don't mean level of e-collar. I mean level of learning and teaching. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely agree. I agree. And that's when you can even use it for any breed. Because what it does is nothing that creates an impact on the quality of the life of this dog, small or little or high drive. You have done the work and you have put yourself in a position to operate a modern enhanced tool that can help you sophisticate and speed up the learning curve of your dog, which is very important. Because the faster he knows his stuff, the more both of you can enjoy what it is all about having a dog. Having a dog is like, and if you would ask me, you know, how would an ideal companionship look like with a dog? I would say going out there, biking with him, running with him, bringing him to my family's home place, telling him what to do, you know, be part of it. But sometimes also exclude him because he needs to wait for us when we're in the store. He needs to wait when we're going to maybe do something with somebody who's afraid of a dog. So he can go in and out of your life. And to have that kind of comfort and control, an e-collar is an unbelievable tool. But I, you know, again, trying to put people in, hey, guys, buy one, buy one. It's like, it's not my advantage, not in your advantage. But seek for the skill, guys. Seek for the skill that will just help you. Even then, if you didn't use a collar, you would still have something really solid to rely on. And then when you're ready, you're going to, you know, put in some quality leash skills, some good reaction times where you're on top of what you're doing. You're feeling like you're making an impact on the dog in a good way. And then we come in with the e-collar.

And the e-collar then just puts that overlay on top of all the work you've done and just creates that freedom and a confidence of now I can release even a high drive dog. Whereas a police dog, for example, mine, they were all police dogs. They bite people and they've bitten people. Like, for real, on the street, they've bitten people. Would you feel comfortable letting a dog loose that has bitten people that you know his threshold is really low? Right. Well, yeah, yeah, because I know what this dog is, you know, how he responds. But I also know if there would ever be a problem, I can use this collar also to make sure that everybody stays safe. And that doesn't mean because you're not an e-collar user, you're on the leash. You think a dog on a leash never bit a guy? Actually, I think most incidents happen when a dog is on a leash because these lunges, you know, they feel like being, how do you call it, like being supported by the handler? Because they're, like, even leaning into a super sharp pinch, it's also supportive. So it's not like they feel that as, no. So there's so many things, actually, that do the opposite of what you believe it would have. So, yeah, the collar is really a good tool. But like Larry said, guys, you've got to educate yourselves. You've got to come with a plan and also assess the skill that you have at this moment. Are you ready for that tool? I believe a lot of people are ready, believing that they're not. So I think equally many people are ready, believing, I'm not ready, I'm not ready. But also a lot of people believing that they think they're ready are not even worthy of training with a leash, meaning they still have to put in some groundwork with food. They still have to understand mechanics. They still have to understand how to communicate with the dog, even non-verbally. So you focus on one skill at a time, guys, verbal skills, talking to a dog, giving commands, placing these commands, what to do when he responds, what to do when he doesn't respond. This is also another skill. Then you have the fading skill, which is, oh, great, now you've done everything with the food. How do you get rid of the food? You see, another skill comes into play because this also requires subtlety. Then a combination with the e-collar fading could be amazing. If you start fading with the collar, that means if the dog derives a little bit, but you can use the collar to maintain position, but then there's not really food. Then you use the marker, for example. Boom, there's another world that opens up because now you don't need anything anymore in your hands.

And the dog's still doing all the stuff that you trained for without any tools in the hand, like literally, literally pushing him in those positions. But all of that is with phases. Can't just go in there and expect in 10 days, guys, ready to fade here. Got the eye collar, got the dog with the high drive, got everything set. No, even then, doesn't matter if you're the world champion or you are a beginner, you will have to respect those phases of dog training. And in his life, luckily, dogs are such fast learners that in 8 to 12 months, we can accomplish basically anything that we want to teach this dog for our purpose. And that's a great thing about dogs. They're so into it. Like if you create the environment for them to thrive in, if you know what accelerates their talents by using the right amount of value and whatever drive they're showing, either it would be food drive or ball drive or even bite drive, like they want to bite into jute things or protection work or equipment, you can all use that as an asset. But everything has to be done with a mind of what will this do for me? If I'm going to use, let's say, for example, a jute ball like that underneath my armpit, will this dog look up to me, Larry? Yes. Not only he will look up to me, he will also try to lunge at it. Okay. So how do I prevent him from lunging? I might use a leash to prevent him from lunging at the ball. All right. I might do that even separately. Okay. So now the dog knows lunging is not going to get me the ball, but you have this huge jute ball and he's going to look up for sure. But now the question is, there will be a time where you don't have this jute ball under your armpit, for example. So what is your plan? What was your vision to ever get rid of this that helped you so much in the very first stage that you use it? The first seconds that he sees it, he says, oh, great. This is heaven. But you also know that heaven is not going to be there forever. And how do you foresee this playing out when stuff starts to be faded out? That's why I don't have any videos myself with balls like using from this, you know, this type of work is something I've never done. I go into head positioning, movement, cell fading. Then it comes in with the mechanics, the collars. You see, I'm more a trainer that uses multiple skills to try to get a certain behavior that is not one dimensional. All we go in top down manipulation is try to hide the ball. Then it goes into the back, into the back pocket. Then it goes, it kind of, it's also subtle. So it's both are a fade. Yes.

But I like more position work and technical work and combinations than only one dimensional. Now it's there. It's almost there. I can't see it anymore, but I still hope it's there. And then it's going to drop, for example. So you see, these are complete two different visions on how to train a healing style, for example. But then it's not about what Nino does or what works for Nino. It's about what are you capable of as well? How do you assess yourself doing? How do you envision yourself doing this? Do you feel energy and joy while doing this? And if the answer is yes, that means, all right, great, because now you're going to do more of this kind of stuff. That means you're going to invite yourself to do more because this is something that appeals to you and you gravitate towards because you see yourself doing this stuff. And that's the thing. If you visit one trainer and you say, this is it, but I have to do what he does, you will feel very defeated. Because if one of those skills don't really belong to you, you're going to think, I don't have it. I can't do it. I'll tell you, I can go train with people and I'm going to feel very uncomfortable. And I would feel almost like a novice and it would eat on my confidence because I wouldn't be able to do what they do. But that doesn't mean you can do other things. That's why there should be always multiple options for you. But one thing that can never change is do you comprehend skill development, combination of skills, control mechanisms, behaviors of drivers, of people? Can you also assess dogs? Can you make the analytics? Analytics don't change. If you are a trainer with a ball or you train with food, you train with high drive or low drive, you must possess analytical skill to see what goes on and what to do in the moment to adjust things. Right? When you adjust things, what are you going to do? You're going to use skill. If I go do a seminar in the U.S. or wherever, U.S. is where I am mostly at. Well, the first thing that happens is I see a bunch of people that I've never seen before. I see a bunch of dogs that I've never seen before. And these people are going to give me 30 seconds of what they do with the dog. And I'm going to say, show me what you can do with this dog. Right? So what am I supposed to rely on? I don't have a history. I don't have a connection with this dog. I don't have a bond with this dog. And I actually know nothing about it. So what I will do, the first thing to make a difference is apply a combination of skills that I have acquired over the years or over the months or whatever.

So I can make a change to get a better result than they were having doing it for months. So you see where the difference is made. So that means by default, you will always go to foundational skills for handlers without talking about motor skills for dogs. And that's how you become a trainer and not just a dog owner. You have to become a dog trainer or even a dog training coach. Because if you want to understand the dog, you got to go on his B levels also. You have to understand his talents and his competencies to acquire. That means you are a coach literally the first second you get a dog. Because you can't just give your dog advice. Hey, dog, try that. See how that works. No, a dog doesn't understand anything unless you really go into his deeper comprehension levels on how mechanics work, how food works, how everything works. Because the only thing that he can do is just go and eat, swallow it, and then go to the bathroom and sleep. And that's it. That's basically what, you know, animals do. But you want to train animals. Now you have to acquire these skills. And you really have to have a solid game plan on what I call the five main skills to possess as a dog trainer. And I'll start with the first one is, for me, the first one, prioritize this one, movement. How do you move in conjunction to your dog? Can you synchronize with the dog? Can you move him in certain positions by using technique in the hands and the feet and the movement? So he can actually execute these with flow and grace and dynamics, right? So movement is one of your first concerns. We're not even talking markers. Marker is a great asset. It's not my problem. My problem is, first, can you move? Then secondly is, can you analyze, right? So can you analyze what happens? Because I can show you a move and you can move also. Anyone can move, right? It's not a complex thing. But then can you process what happens? Can you actually see what this does to this dog? And what kind of information do you get from doing this? All right. So can you analyze things visual? Can you visualize things? Can you extract information? Can you process information? And then can you come up with new things? All right. Number three is, do you control your own control mechanism? Do you know what stops you from developing? Why? Because if you're a B-perfect, why aren't you submitting any videos there, student? Well, I know why. Because it's never good enough, is it? You want to show me the perfect routine. And because you want to control your process of working, how you work the dog, you're not submitting anything unless it's perfect.

So that means you're also not growing because I can't give you feedback. I'm not seeing what you're doing. You're holding yourself back. But if you don't know, if you're not aware of this because this is subconscious behavior, you hold on to this because this is the only thing you can control is a working process as a B-perfect. Well, then you can't go further. Even though a B-perfect is a great driver also to have really nice training, it can also stop you. You see? So now we're not even talking. So immediately switch to, okay, there's something going on here that doesn't relate to your analytics, doesn't relate to your skill, but relates to your control mechanism that's stopping you from submitting these videos because you want to have control over the working process and over the perfection of this execution and this video that you're not submitting anything. All right. Number four is how do we start communicating with the dog verbally? Because I can move maybe and do all these things and then mark and all that, but I haven't said a word to this dog. All right. So we haven't said a word. So how do we start communicating then? When you start implementing these words, what kind of impact do you want these words to have? What kind of response? How do you place them? What do you need to take care of? What do you need to think of when you're going to introduce classical conditioning? Because we as people, our communication is completely different than dog's communication. So the audio is also a huge thing on how do you, a lot of people in the U.S. like verbal praise, verbal encouragement, verbal markers, and all that kind of stuff. And this is all great. If you are a master of all the other previous skills, for example, then you add the audio on top of that. Great. Now we have another tool, another asset that you've built. Yes. Yes. But a lot of people go first to the audio. And then after eight months start, man, this is all sloppy and crappy. How do we get to look like you? Well, I didn't start with the audio, you see? So our priorities were different. So they say, well, at least I got a marker. Well, show me the marker. Well, the marker is for some people either just to stay command or it's an activation to do whatever you want command. Now it's not either one of them in my world. Okay. So that's also different. You see? And that's how we lay out a plan. Like that's what this is about is do you understand when what needs to happen, when to prioritize the certain skill or when you're ready to combine everything? All right. Now we're going forward. So and then last but not least is the grip skill.

Grip like grip for people. Yes. Grip for people. What does that mean? How do you? Now we're going into Larry's world also and my world is how do you now manipulate all these things simultaneously? We're holding a marker. We're holding a leash. We're holding a knee collar. We're doing audio. On top of that, we're doing analytics. We're using our visuals and we're controlling our control mechanism to stay non-active, to not go into these patterns that we know they're going to set us further from our goals. That's a lot. Who can help us with this? A coach. That's why everybody needs a coach. That's why the best players in the entire world, Olympians, professional athletes, all have a coach. There's nobody out there like, well, I'm just here on the Olympics solo. There's no coach. There's no back. It's just all me. Were you crazy? It's not the case. So you will need a coach. The question is, who can coach you? It's not because you have expertise. That somebody accepts you as a coach. I could be an expert in the domain of e-calls. Could be an expert in the domain of puppies. All right. That doesn't mean I'm going to have the impact for this person to change his behavior also. The question then is, outside of the expertise that this person possesses, how is he able to communicate and help me and talk to me and give me confidence and understand my B-level so I feel I am connected to this coach and I am willing to accept what he says and make a substantial change so there could be a different outcome. That is coaching. That is coaching. All the rest people is training advice. Take it, drop it, leave it. And then I had a guy ask me one day, hey, Nino, you know why this always happens? People see me train with my dog, high level. It's not a Malin White, it's like a Border Collie or something. And then people come out and ask him, how did you do this? And he says, I spent an hour explaining them how I do all this. And then I see him back three weeks and they're just doing the exact same thing. Like they never took my advice. I said, yeah, of course they are not going to take your advice or maybe they could have, but they decided not to. Were you mad at them now? And plus your advice was free. You think they valued that? You see, people want to, you can't value what's free. What's free in this world? Do you know something valuable that's free these days? You're right about, I've learned that the hard way. Believe me. Yeah. We're doing a lot of free, I mean, we're doing free podcasts. We're doing free videos. We're doing free whatever. Some people want it all.

Some people ask me on my videos comments, say, hey, show me all the steps, what you got this dog to do in that position. I mean, come on. So you want to invest in your own future. You know, that means you got to reach out to people and, you know, there's a price for everything in this world. But nobody's making you do anything. You can take it, leave it. You can try it. You can do whatever. Same for the caller. People always ask me, what kind of caller? Look, I don't know your budget. There's a $100 caller. I've even seen one of $5 on Alibaba. But you can also go with the $1,000 one. I mean, that all depends. Like, what kind of reliability do you want? What kind of skill are you able to deploy? Like, you know, all that kind of stuff. Like, it's actually a question that is not so easy to answer. What kind of caller? I don't know you. I don't know your dog. I don't know what you want. Like, I can tell you definitely, like, hey, if you're looking into the elite levels, I would go to this type of caller, for example, with that kind of remote, with that kind of functions. You see, now we're talking, but you can't just answer somebody's question. What kind of caller? That's a weird question. It's almost somebody asking, hey, what kind of breed of dog should I buy? You don't know this person. You don't know their goals. You don't know their budget. You know, I mean, a quality dog costs a lot of money. It's not cheap. I mean, look, the Malons are more in demand than ever. More in demand than ever. So, now if you want a puppy, well, good luck. You think you're going to get first pick for $500? You're thinking, no, it's not going to be the case. Even not for $2,000, because first pick is not meant for you. You see? You're new. You're not going to get the first pick. The first pick goes to the breeder. The first pick goes to the guy that delivers the stud. But the first pick goes to the top level competitor, whatever. But then again, what is first pick? What are you going to do with the first pick? If you had a choice, how would you do it? What would you be looking at? What was your goal? So many things that go into purchasing a dog completely neglected, not being well thought over. And then they think, oh, overseas, it must be better over there. Let me just import the dog. No, that wasn't like I made that mistake too. You know, sold a dog to people that I thought they will be qualified and they're not. And then maybe not qualified as not competent, not qualified for that type of dog, for that kind of challenge and those given circumstances. So everything is always on the way. Can you see the questions on the screen, Nino?

Can you see the questions on the screen? I see, no, I don't see questions. I see responses. William asked you, what's Nino's thoughts on empowering a dog from the use of an e-collar? Empowering a dog. I'm not sure exactly what he means, but that was his question. Yeah. Where do you see these questions? I put it up on the screen. You should see it on the screen. Oh, here it is. Here it is. What's Nino's thoughts on empowering a dog? Could you explain empowering to me, like making him stronger to use a collar? Yeah, I'm not sure what he means. The only thing that I could answer to that, William, is, you know, what a lot of people don't understand is a dog's ability to escape and avoid negative reinforcement when they understand it is empowering. It's rewarding. You know, and that's why some of the very weak and insecure dogs do so well with the e-collar training when done properly. But I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking at. I don't understand the question. I thought maybe Nino would, but I didn't think so. Yeah. Maybe you can elaborate a little bit on that. Yeah. What else we have, man? We've been going on forever here. Yeah. Not sick of us yet. Lisa said, hello, Larry, review the really amazing Martin Technologies. Was it like $5,000? That's the Martin System Chameleon. Not $5,000. Lisa, maybe $700 or $800, maybe. You know, something like that. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff here. We've been going on for a while. It's got to be late by you, no? What's the time there? I forgot to put on my watch, to be honest. So let me see. It is now. Oh, not that late. 6. Yeah. 6.22 p.m. Gotcha. But look, I'm having fun here, having a conversation with somebody who's, you know, smart. You have more questions there. You have more questions, right, Nino? You want to go through some of your questions? Are you going to pull them up? Because I still can't see them for whatever reason. I thought you had some there with you. Let me see. There's something you could hit. Oh, are the questions you made on my phone? Yeah. Hmm. Okay. Hmm. Okay. This one is for you. Larry, what was it like being in that awkward interview interrogation with Ivan Abadi? I'm sorry. Yeah. We already discussed this, but you want to give a reaction to that? Listen, I knew exactly what that interview was going to be like. That's why I stepped up and did it. I knew what it was going to be like. There was no doubt in my mind. You know, Ivan encouraged me not to do it. He didn't think it would be good. I knew it wouldn't be good, but I wasn't worried about me. I thought it was important that people see it. I thought it was very important.

I have no regrets from that whatsoever. No regrets, especially from the responses to it. It has to get, it should have gotten people talking and it did. Right. So it has to let people dig a little deeper and find their own way. And going back to what you were kind of talking about just a few minutes ago, you know, I tell people this all the time. Listen, learn from as many great people as you can, but don't try to emulate anyone because it's never going to work. You have your own personality, your own characteristics, your own little quirks. And the second you stop being you, you're going to fail. So take the information, but make it your own. If you tried to copy someone, you're going to fail. It's not possible. You know what I mean? And that's really, really important because I see people, listen, there's trainers that have very powerful influence over people. And I see them even try to take on their personalities and talk like them and use their words and their style of talking. Yeah. That's weak. That shows a lack of character and a lack of self-confidence. And there's no way you're going to succeed with an animal, especially a difficult animal, if you can't be yourself. So you have to be yourself. You know, there were times where maybe I started wondering if all the little things I do in the home, the behavior, all the nonverbal things, maybe some of these trainers are right. Maybe it's not important. Right. Maybe it's silly. So I tried to get away from it. And what I saw was I'll never doubt myself again. Never doubt myself again because I saw an enormous change and not for the better when I stopped doing the things that I believe in and that I'm very good at. The second I strayed away from that because I listened to too many voices, I was like, oh, man, what a mistake, you know, and I'm going to take that away from people that need that. Oh, hell no. Hell no. Those are the little things that help the average person that a lot of people will not teach them or just don't know how to teach or don't even talk about. So I'll never do that again. I, you know, there's a lot of people I'm, you know, with Dante, I plan on competing in IGP. Right. So that's a first for me. I got a lot of work to do. There's several people that I'm learning from and being coached from. And I've learned a lot from many people. But the second that I stop training the way I train and try to copy one of them, I don't do well. I just can't because I have to train like me. And one of the things that's funny because Lars Lentz is my tracking coach. Right. I'm working with Lars.

And Lars said something to me the other day where I had to just laugh. He said, just don't be scared of making mistakes. Just go ahead and do it. Right. Because with the tracking, it's new to me. So all of a sudden I was training different. And something that I tell everybody I work with, Nino, everybody is you cannot be scared to make a mistake. And you can't have the dog scared to make a mistake. I want the mistakes. That's where you're going to learn. But yet when it came to tracking, I was going against my own advice. And the second he said that to me, I started having better tracks with my dog because I started doing different things and making it more difficult and throwing in some of my own things that I do in training outside of tracking that have helped me along the way with my dogs. You know what I mean? So, no, I don't have any regrets from that podcast whatsoever. You know, none at all. Because I believe now in the way I do things more than I ever have before. So I haven't strayed in any way. Like, you know. Yeah. That's, you know, that's how I know you as well as you don't shy away from a challenge or a call out or somebody, you know, trying to scrutinize you for whatever reason that is. I've been the same. Look, you want to go live? Let's do it live. Yeah, sure. There's nothing to hide. There's nothing that we can't discuss unless you really want to take somebody down purposely like we talked before out of weakness. And that's just a shitty move. But, like, you've proven your stuff. And I'm happy that you do what you do. So I have somebody here. And I think this is a really good question. He says, one of my dogs is super sensitive to prong collars. Of course, there's a distinction we can make between plastic or metal. Not sure which one he's talking of. Would you suggest e-collar training as okay for this dog? So I'm seeing this scenario because we're basing ourselves on these two sentences. You get out a dog and you introduce it already to some mechanics. And these mechanics, you use maybe a prong collar. I'm not sure if he's referring to plastic or metal. And the dog is showing very sensitive reactions. Would you suggest an e-collar training as okay for this dog? So I can see this person's concern based on the fact they're not dealing so well with mechanics. How do you feel introducing an e-collar for this specific dog? What would concern me about that is why would the dog be so sensitive to the prong collar, right? Were the mechanics and the approach completely inappropriate for the dog? Was the dog taught properly?

So there has to be some kind of error in the teaching there that created that. Because a prong collar is not going to cause an issue for a dog unless something created that issue for the dog. And so if you go about the same routes of what you understand in learning, how the dogs learn, and apply that to the e-collar, then chances are you're probably not going to succeed with that either. That's a great answer, Larry. I love this answer. This shows your extreme analytic ability. Just on two sentences, you already envision, hey, if a dog responds in that super sensitive way to something mechanically that you might do very subtly, there might be something wrong in the state of thrive that you use this dog. Might be something wrong in the force that was applied. Might be something wrong in the confidence given to the dog. Like you already see this whole movie playing and you're like, okay, we have to really investigate why this dog is responding that way, what you've been doing, what was the history, what is the age, what is the drive level. So many things go into this answer. And that was a fantastic answer, showcasing your analytic ability. That's why you're the man. And that's why you're having so much success because it is exactly that. Each time you get a question, boom, your brain starts imagining these things like what could be an issue here? What could have been done? Like what is a possibility? You see that kind of answer, like somebody might go in and go like, well, of course not. You can't use a new color for that dog. I mean, it's already sensitive to a prong. No, let's just forget about it. That would be the most common thing that you would hear, right? Common sense people would think. Of course, it's super sensitive. No, you go in with the analytics that this deserves. Every case is individual. Every process is always subjective to what this person has done with the dog, what his skills have meant to the dog, how he assessed it. And he says super sensitive. But then, you know, there's so many variables. Great answer, Larry. Love it. Thank you. Okay. You want to do one more? Sure. If the dog works good with the e-collar and then you want to stop using it, not depend on it, can you focus a little on that? I mean, how I successfully removed the e-collar and still remain the same responses from the dog. A lot of times the dog knows he is not wearing the e-collar anymore. Thank you. It's a classic, but I'd love to hear your response again. I think when we deal with the collar-wise dog, a lot of that is done through the training, right?

Again, if the training is not clear before the collar, that's a problem. So let's assume that, right? For me, it's very simple. If the training is done on point, if the dog understands everything you've done up until that point, the dog should look the same whether the collar is on or not. That's the goal. For me, my dogs, my clients' dogs, the dog should look the same and respond the same way whether the dog is naked or there's a tool on the dog. That's how we train. A lot of times, especially with the e-collar, people rush to get through the process. They don't put in the work, okay? They don't put in the work, and they're in such a hurry to get the collar off. The collar goes on. They train. They're done training. They take it off, right? They only train with the collar on. That's one big mistake. Then they don't spend any time in that intermittent phase where we start teaching the dog to respond whether the collar is there or not, okay? That's really important, and they can't rush through that area. That's where a lot of people fail, right? They go from conditioning the dog, using the e-collar every time to no longer using it all, and then they're in a hurry to take the collar off. For me, it's very simple. My dogs haven't seen or felt the e-collar in a really long time, right? But if I'm going to go out in public, and they're going to be off leash, and I don't think maybe Buddy, my golden doodle, but if I take Luca out anywhere in public, Mango anywhere out in public, there's nothing that those dogs aren't going to respond to me without the e-collar on. They're going to respond to me every time. I can guarantee it. But yet, I still put the e-collar on for that just-in-case moment because I'm always going to be prepared for that would-if moment because they're animals, and they make mistakes, and we're humans. We make mistakes, and you can't control everything you're around. So what I tell people, Nino, if someone comes to me and they're asking, when could I stop using the collar, we're not using the collar to train. And they say, no, no, I want to do it. And I say, you're not ready to use it because you have this negative association in your head about this collar, and this training has to be pleasant for you and the dog. I want you to enjoy it. And if you're doing something that you have such a negative association in your head, it's not going to be successful. So I refuse to do it. Not everyone that comes to me, I don't make anyone do e-collar training.

As a matter of fact, if someone comes to me and says, I'm never going to take my dog off leash, I always want him on leash, I want to do e-collar training. I say, why? Why? It's save your money, save your time. It's not necessary, right? You don't need it. You don't need it. So for that, that question always leads me to believe. As soon as they say, when can I stop using it? There's that negative association, and I don't think you're ready to use it. Great, great, great answer. Cannot agree more with this. I'll actually add a little story on top of it just to put things in perspective because this is something very uncommon. I'm going to talk to you about it because what actually would happen if, like you and what you just explained, Larry, is exactly how I train Cody, one of my competition's dogs. It was also operational as a police dog simultaneously. And I've trained him exactly like that. The only time the e-collar was off was when I was doing the trial, when the bell rang of the trial and when I was doing operations. So when I got him out of the car, he wasn't always wearing a collar. But other than that, he was always, always, always wearing a collar. Now, what happened was he jumped over a tree. He hurt himself. I had to do an RX. And some vet messed him up. He put contrast fluid in my dog, put a CT scan. He woke up. He got nerve damage all over the place. Lawsuit for five years. Anyway, story short, long story short, he was never able to do anything, compete or whatever because he has a nerve damage. He walked really funny. He could, like, sometimes draw. But in his head, he was still the same dog. He was still having the same energy, but he couldn't execute his exercises anymore. So from that day on, I never used a collar before because to me, then I wanted to give a dog a life here in my yard. It wasn't relevant to me because I knew I was never going to bring him out again to the police. I was never going to, you know, do a competition again. So I didn't feel like training. I didn't put any collars on him. And guess what, Larry? For all the years that he lived, and he lived for five more years, six more years, he still responded as if he had an e-collar on him. It was like it never was away from him. It's like he was still giving me the same responses. He was still, when I let him bite the sleeve sometimes, just, you know, from a down position so he didn't have to move too much, he was still giving me the out, the ins, the outs. Everything, this dog was so in control of, you know, manipulating. He thought really that he always manipulated everything. That's why he never needed it.

But then, let's say he showed that he wouldn't have needed it, but now that I can do it again, would I then take it off after all those years? And not, no, I would still do the same thing. I would not change anything. So, and that's what this is about is you know it could. And now I had to prove that, oh, they could do it for years actually still. If you've done it right for years, they could do it out. But why? Why would you? So they can't. Doesn't mean you should. And I think that's the bottom line of this. That's great. That's a great story. Yeah. That sums it up pretty much right there. That sums it up right there. Big time. You know, Verena wants to know, what do you guys think about vibration only collars since they are still allowed in Germany? Yeah. You want me to answer that one? Sure. So I think the vibration collar as if you want to enhance your skills to manipulate buttons and devices at the same time. And, you know, try to get accustomed with that. I could see where that fits in. Or you have a deaf dog that cannot hear you by audio. And there would be vibrations, you know, that are conditioned to responses, et cetera. I can definitely see that. That would have a use. I never use it myself personally as introductions or a method of teaching to my students. Not at the police nor in private. So, you know, to me it doesn't mean a whole lot because it will never ever have the same impact or the same results as an actual e-caller. But if you believe it will help you give you the confidence to hold the device, like I said, do multiple skills at the same time, then I would say, yeah, this could be great. But since they're not allowed in Germany, yeah, then the question actually is like, like, are you looking into using an e-caller? And then will you do it, like, illegally? And so, again, comes to our first conversation, the first half hour of this podcast. What happens to these people? And that's actually one of my questions for you, Larry, to maybe close it down. What do you suggest that, you know, a lot of concerned students, dog trainers in Europe are now in countries that are facing all these bans? And let's say they hear this and they want to, like, develop that skill and they're ready and their dog definitely deserves. What is your take on this from your U.S. base? So this is not like a problem directly for you. But what would you suggest if tomorrow this would also be the case in your state or your country where you know you can use it? You know it's going to create a positive impact. You know people are sometimes very qualified and dogs can definitely also have great outcomes.

What would this mean to you if this would happen to you? If they ban the collars here in the States? Yeah. For me, it honestly wouldn't mean much. Okay? It wouldn't mean that the people that I train, my training would be easier because I wouldn't have to put in as much work making sure they're prepared for the tool. For millions of other people, it's going to be an issue. It's going to be a problem. And a lot more dogs are going to die because of it. Because we have to be honest and realistic. It's a tool that levels the playing field for the average person that doesn't have the skills or the physical ability to deal with the dog that they have in their home. Now with that, people are going to say, well, people should stop getting dogs that they can't. Yeah, they should. But it's going to happen. Right? It's going to happen. And so I know very, very competent dog owners that are up there in age or have physical disabilities and have strong dogs or active dogs. They're great dog owners. But the proper use of this tool gives them and their dogs a full life. Right? A lot of these dogs that wind up in shelters because of behavioral problems would be easy fixes. Easy fixes for someone who's half competent in dog training and competent with the tool. You'd save so many dogs. Right? So many dogs. One of the biggest issues we have here in the States and something I've been really preaching for for a long time is we have the people showing the bad when the e-collars are misused. And rightfully so. They should show it. They're going to continue to show it. But we see the bad when someone takes a Malinois puppy on a leash and slams it on the ground and breaks their hips. They're not looking at banning leashes. Right? A scumbag is a scumbag. And they're going to abuse no matter what they're using. They don't need any kind of tool to abuse a dog. But the people that are so scared of using these tools and rely on these tools, then you better up your skills as a dog trainer without the tool to get better results with the tool. And then we have to, as an industry, show more good work. You have to show the work. Not the befores. Not the afters. You have to show the work. The mistakes are more important. Especially the mistakes where you see the dog isn't being destroyed because of the mistakes. The education comes from showing the real stuff. You know, people mock me. We've talked, you know, about the way I film things with an iPhone. Very unprofessional and poor quality. When I started making videos, instructional videos, I used, like, the oldest phone possible years ago. And the quality was awful.

And when people started watching my videos, I said, wow, I can't believe you guys are watching this stuff. I said, maybe I'll get some nice photography, some nice cameras, and some editing equipment. And they jumped all over me. They said, no, don't. We actually want to see the real stuff. We don't want no editing. So I don't edit videos. And so I will show the sloppy. And I'm sloppy. I will show the mistakes. And I make a lot of mistakes. Right? But until people step up in this country and start actually showing the work and showing what the tool could do on the positive side, instead of the bullshit before and afters, we're going to be right behind Europe. And so if we're going to get out ahead of it, people have to stop talking and start doing more, start showing more. And so I show a lot of boring stuff. I show a lot of first sessions and second sessions with the e-collar with weak pet dogs for a reason. For a reason. I want people to say, hey, this isn't the strongest dog and it looks kind of shitty. But maybe if we show it this way and we explain to people what we're doing and we're using the sound box, you see everything. And you see if a dog has a bad reaction. I'm not going to hide it if that dog has a bad reaction. But I'm going to show you how we work through that process and make that dog love everything we're doing. No one can hold that against you. Right? They could say, I would have started here and I wouldn't have made those mistakes. Well, that's okay. I make mistakes. I make a lot of mistakes. But I'm going to show you where we're going to finish up. And I'm going to show you how this tool fits in to a small part of my training program. Because it is a very small part of my training program. And for me, we're going on almost three hours. I think the most important part out of everything we talked about, Nino, is we both come back to how important the most simple, fundamental basics are to everything we both do. And I'm dealing with mostly behavioral stuff. And it's still the most important thing. And it's still the most important thing that people are overlooking before they jump right to the e-collar. That's all I got to say about that. Yep. All right. That was pretty clear. So people have to take their responsibility and also showing the good actions. Showing that, you know, what this tool can mean. Also build a community. Instead of shitting on each other, we should actually support each other. Instead of scrutinizing each other what is true, what is false, what is working, what is not, what is, you know, that that's the problem.

Like our industry has a huge problem collaborating with one another. Some trainers are even like too proud to have another trainer's name on the same billboard or the same flyer because they could discover the other guy. And the other guy might have more influence on their clients. Like from this mindset, nobody's getting better. I think, you know, there's so many options for people, so many, like you said, characteristics, personalities that define people and who they are and who they will gravitate towards and relate to. Like, you know, why is it so, oh, no, can't have this guy here because if I'm going, he can come. And if I'm there, he better not show up. Or what the hell is that? So, and this is, this is the root of the problem. Like we cannot have a decent discussion even among balanced trainers without, you know, hearing them call out each other or, or, you know, it's like, it's, it's a problem. It's a serious problem also, which does not help us at all in the long term. You know, but someone sent me a, someone sent me a video compilation of a trainer that loves to talk about me. Right. And this, this person used to be against me and we're in their tight circle until they finally started seeing, wait a minute, something's not right here. They put together a video compilation of every time I'm mentioned in this guy's lives and podcasts and Patreons. I couldn't make it to the end. I couldn't make it to the end. There was so much. He never makes it through a conversation without mentioning me either by name or referencing me. I I'm very honored by that, that I live in someone's head so strongly. And I could tell you this, I appreciate everyone that stayed with us. Listen, there's almost three hours guys. So thank you so much for everyone. Yeah. But with that being said, and I'm always honored to talk to Nino because I love what you do. Nino, I think you're absolutely phenomenal what you're doing and you put out good information instead of breaking people down. But with that being said, I want to take a special thanks, give a special thanks to the haters that are going to spend three hours of their day to sit there and watch us talk and then go on to their platforms and talk about our three hours watching us talk. Thank you to the haters because that's major dedication. Major dedication. I appreciate you all more than anybody. You know, that's a good one. That's a good note to end for sure. So, well, everybody, guys, thank you for sticking here so long.

And if you want to chop this in a few, you know, sessions to listen to it, that's what the podcast is really good for is you can multitask. Remember, multitasking is the path towards victory. Now you can go to the gym. You can walk your dog. You can listen to this podcast at the same time and, you know, get some things going. And so I'm really excited to, you know, to see all these positive things here because actually we're talking about it still is controversial topic. People are, you know, really nice. So, look, we would answer any question. But unfortunately, you know, we went in already almost three hours. So, Larry, I'm sure we're going to set it up again. Maybe also try a different topic and stuff like that. So it's just too fun not to. And, you know, if you guys like it, let us know and we'll set up a next one. So, Larry, this one is going to be for the people that tuned in. Appreciate you doing this, you know. Appreciate you doing this very much. And love what you're doing. And like I said, I've got nothing but great feedback from all the people taking your online stuff. So I think there'll be a lot more people from here looking into it, too, because, you know, people are having a blast doing it. And the dogs look absolutely freaking amazing. And that's what it's all about, you know. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. And we're actually, you know, inviting other trainers as well because I never liked a kind of guru status, whatever. I'm not interested in that. I want to provide the best quality for people in dog training where they have multiple areas to look into and enjoy themselves and their dogs. And I like the positivism in your speech and what you just said. So thank you for that. For the people that have tuned in later, they want to see the whole thing. What is it like you posting that, Larry? Yeah, this will stay on Facebook. And I'll also put it on YouTube also. And I'll figure out how to get this sent to you, too, Nino, if you can't do it yourself somehow. Yeah. All right. Great. All right, guys. On my channel. Thank you so much. All right. Thanks a lot, Nino. Thank you, Nino. This was great as always, brother. You, too. Have a good one, pal. See you. Peace. Have a good day. Bye. You, too. Bye. Bye. All right.