E353: 로레타 뮐러(Loretta Mueller) - 어질리티 시작하기

that's really listening to you and your dog. Um, you need to make sure that the dog can focus with distractions all around them. That's going to be a big part of it. You're going to have other dogs, other people, food, noises, you name it. If you've never been to an agility trial, it can be quite a, quite a crazy, chaotic place. Um, and the biggest thing when you're doing courses or sequencing is that your dog needs to be able to commit and perform obstacles with you moving away, which is really tough for dogs. And if you're fast, that's also great. It's a great thing to have an agility. But if you're not, and that's okay, uh, my dogs are a lot faster than I am. And so that's not a big deal, but you would need a set of verbals that are well-trained so that you can negotiate the courses. Awesome. So when we start to break those things down into kind of the foundation skills that we're looking at teaching, you know, teaching our dog, um, can you take us through what that looks like? Can you talk us through an example? Uh, yeah. So let's say, and the first thing I like to do is I like to do any skill on the flat as we call it, which means that there's no equipment. So we're teaching the dogs how to respond to body language, teaching the dogs that they should turn when the handler turns, they should, um, shorten their stride when the handler decelerates, they should extend their stride when the handler accelerates, things like that. And, um, a good example would be like, let's say I teach the dogs that they have to go to a bowl or a toy dropped on the floor as an example, and they need to go to that bowl or toy dropped while the handler's moving away. So we're teaching these dogs from the get-go oppositional motion, right? So the dog is going to go towards the reward. The human's going to run the other direction and the dog is going to continue to get the reinforcement. And from an instinctive point of view, that is really, really tough for dogs. They don't chase rabbits and then suddenly just turn around away from it. It's not what they do. So we teach these dogs motion-based handling. And then we're like, oh, but by the way, when I say jump or when I say A-frame, I need you to continue on. So I like to have the dogs understand that. So we start on the flat. We work on adding oppositional motions. After that, I normally start adding a jump into the mix. And the reason why I add a jump is because we don't have to have a jump bar. We want to separate that out. Just the act of going to the jump and going around the upright while the handler, again, is going away.

We can work on those dogs staying committed with oppositional handler motion. And then we can add verbals in. And then once we get the verbals, then we would add another layer of distractions as an extra challenge to help the dogs understand that they're supposed to really focus in on the task no matter what happens, whether the handler's moving off or whatever. Their only job is to do that thing. And then when they're done doing the thing, then they reconnect with their handler. What about the other half of the team, the human half of the team? What do those foundations look like? We're going to work on body language being correct. So if in my classes, people laugh at it. And in my seminars, I say, point all your parts. Point all the parts to the things. But it's really important. You want to point your arms and your toes and all your body parts to where your dog needs to go. And we are, as humans, used to just pointing with our hands to things. So our body may be pointing a completely different direction. And that is really confusing to the dog. So it's much easier to teach a person in the beginning stages the correct way to signal a dog than having to fix it later once we have all sorts of bad habits established, unfortunately. Again, I've been there with that and had to reestablish good habits. And so we want to make sure that that body language is on point as much as possible. It also causes way less issues for the dog. So as your handling needs to always make sense to them, that's going to be the goal. And I like to say that your handling should always provide answers to the dog, never questions. The more questions the dog has to answer for you, the more frustration they have, or they'll stop trusting your commands, right? And so it's just a matter of saying, you know what, the cleaner and more technical we can be. So the dog ideally would never question. That would be our goal. And so we are working on both the dog and the handler. And the handler ideally needs to be clean. The further you get away from obstacles, it's even more important because you're showing dogs lines from a distance. And so if your foot or your hands are even just six inches off, it can point to a totally different area of the course. And that would be confusing to your dog. All right. So we talked a little bit about handling in there. And I think a lot of the time, you know, new agility teams, handlers tend to start with the obstacles, right? They think about the A-frame or they think about the dog walk or they think about the teeter. And many maybe assume that jumps are perhaps the easiest of the bunch to teach.

My guess is things are a little more complicated than they may first appear. So what makes for good and safe jumping? So first of all, let's talk about why jumps are not that exciting, right? They're just not, right? Weep holes are cool. A-frames are cool. Dog walks are cool. If you have a running dog walk, it's super cool. You know, there's so many more things that are so, so much cooler than jumps. But bottom line is jumps are the most used obstacle in an agility course, right? And yeah, there's plenty of people that say, oh, my dog misses their A-frame contacts and things like that. But there are lots more that say my dog has one bar-itis or my dog's a bar knocker, right? And they're very, jumps are pretty darn easy to fault, okay? There's a lot that goes into jumping, right? So from setting the striding, the dog needs to take the jump, whether they're an extension or collection, rocking back their weight, if turning or staying on the front end, if they're going to be an extension. They have to do all these things. And they also have to adjust to surfaces. They have to adjust, you know, if you're trailing outside and it's wet, things like that. And on top of that, then they also have to do all this stuff while trying to listen to handler commands, which I don't know anybody that has the most perfect timing in the entire world. So let's say we're just a little bit off. It throws everything off. And so there's a lot happening in a very small amount of time, right? And so again, they're not, jumps aren't that exciting for us. And I see a lot of dogs that don't find them exciting either because again, they're easy to fault. There's a lot of them and they do require a lot of thought process and executing things at a very quick rate. And so even if you're not just, you know, if you're doing just agility, that's fine. But if you're not just doing agility, you're doing obedience, you're doing fly ball, any of those things. The goal with jumping is going to be to make that as autopilot for the dog as possible. And there's just so much to do. And I think that good and safe jumping is where the dog can read the line. They can read the jump height. They are able to adjust to different surfaces. They're able to focus on their job no matter what the handler's doing, even if the handler makes an error and they're confident in what they have to do. Because if they're not, dogs can get hurt while jumping. I mean, agility in general is a pretty high impact sport. And jumping is one of those things that if done correctly, right, over time doesn't necessarily cause a lot of wear and tear on the dog.

But if done incorrectly, it can cause a myriad of issues. And so we want to make sure that these dogs are doing what they need to do and do it safely while competing and training. A lot of the times we kind of hear this phrase jump grid thrown around. And for those who maybe aren't agility, aren't super experienced, I guess, in the sport, that may be a phrase that sounds familiar, but they don't really know what it means. So can you talk about what a jump grid is and maybe how it actually helps? Yeah, for sure. So a jump grid is really just a line of jumps that can be set in different, like, spacing configurations, some angles, heights, things like that to help the dog learn how to jump in extension, in collection, and also transitioning between the two types of jumping, meaning extension or collection. So, like, one of the hardest things dogs usually have a hard time doing is going from extreme extension to collection. That's a really tough one, right? Because they have to slow down and do all the things really, really fast and try to make it all happen. The reason why I like them is because it's a place for the dog to be able to work on solving jumping puzzles without any feedback from the handler. So it's a, I guess, as I would call it, a jumping safe space. It's a place to experiment. It's a place to figure out their timing. And we do add motion as the dogs get more advanced. But in the beginning, it's just, again, you're trying to figure out, let the dog do their thing. They go to a reinforcer. They figure out what feels right. Most dogs that need jump education, it's about getting them to understand, you know, what feels good with their bodies and how they should use their bodies. Because if we don't teach them that and give them the freedom to puzzle through that kind of stuff, jumping can become very anxiety producing. And if you've ever had anxiety or anybody listening to this podcast has ever had anxiety, a lot of times you get really tense in your shoulders and your neck muscles. And I like to carry all of my anxiety in my jaw. That's my favorite place to keep it all together. And so what you see is dogs that get anxious or dogs that are overthinking, they get tight in their front end, which then doesn't make them good jumpers. And they get worried. And so it's all about providing a place for these dogs to have a consistent set of jumps where they can learn to scope out the jump and they can learn to measure different heights and adjust their strides so that they know exactly what they should do. And then once we have them doing that, then we can add the human component into it.

So the dog has had a lot of experience understanding how they need to use their bodies. And I think jump grids are perfect for that. And it's very easy for me to keep the human out of it because we like to help. We as humans, we want to help, right? So if a bar comes down, I get this question. What happens if a bar comes down to the jump grid? Nothing. You just observe what the dog did. And 99% of the time they'll fix it because they didn't like it anyway. It's, you know, before they learn that bars are bad, they just were like, Ooh, I didn't like the way that felt or I didn't like that it got knocked. And so you let these dogs work through it. And it's so fun to see these dogs work through the grids without any feedback from the handler. Maybe we might move a jump a little bit, a foot or two to maybe make the right decision easier. But in general, the humans just left out of it. And so it's just a nice, easy way to get your dogs educated in jumping without having to, you know, add any kind of handler issues with verbals or anything like that. And then, like I said, once they get to the point where they're really, really solid in the grids, you can add handler motion. You can add words and distractions and things like that. And the dog's like, I got this. No problem. That's awesome. Um, for folks just getting started with jumping, I feel like the other question that is bound to come up is what height do I start the jump at compared to where they'll ultimately need to compete at? Um, how do you introduce that piece of things? And do you start it out at the full height? Do you not start it out at the full height? Talk me through some of that. Well, we're going to look at first what age the dog is, right? So I don't try to go to full height if they're young. Um, I'm really nerdy about this kind of stuff. And so I would get my dogs x-rayed for growth plates. Um, your vet can tell you exactly which growth plates to x-ray. They'll tell you when all of them have been closed. So that's what I recommend to people. Um, sometimes they don't like to hear that, but that's what I do. Cause I don't want my dogs jumping full height until those growth plates are completely closed and the dog is ready. You also have to look at the dog's mental abilities. So some dogs are very immature mentally and some dogs are super mature mentally. And so I'm going to look at those two things first to make sure is the dog physically capable of jumping and is the dog mentally capable? If their growth plates aren't closed, then we, you know, no, no bars, bars on the ground, preferably no bars.

I'm not a big fan of bars on the ground cause they can slip and, and fall on those bars, depending on what kind of footing you have. But, um, I'm going to start with no bar ideally and teach them just to maneuver their bodies around this jump, just to build value and take the thing. Right. And then if they're young, I'm going to keep everything very low below like a wrist height and let them just learn how to use their bodies. If they're super, I call kind of discombobulated, right? So they're back end and they're front end don't really work together. You keep everything low. So it's nice and easy. I want this to be a, not only a technique situation, but also a value building situation. Jumping needs to be very rewarding for the dogs. Correct jumping needs to be the ultimate reward, right? So we want to make sure we're reinforcing as much as we can. Then I'm going to measure the dog at their withers. And again, this is assuming the dog's growth plates are closed. You can get an idea for where your dog is going to be based on breed standards, based on, you know, they've got different growth charts and stuff. But if you have an adult dog, you measure the withers, you figure out which venue you're going to be running in and what their final jump height is. And then if, again, if you're working with a young dog, you're not going to be doing any of that. You're just going to be working on them using their bodies. If I have the wither height and I know what I'm working up to, I'm going to slowly increase by one inch to maybe two inches at a time. Okay. I don't want to go more than that. And the reason I don't is because I really want to think about how much effort jumping takes. Right. So if you, you need to build that up slowly, just like you would for any fitness routine you're starting out with. Okay. I am not going to go out and run a marathon without some training before. Cause well, number one, I'm probably not going to finish it, but number two, it's going to be absolutely miserable. And I may not be able to walk for a couple of weeks. Jumping is no different, right? You have to allow the dog to build strength and conditioning when doing jump work. So slow and steady wins the race. If you have a young dog, you're just working on where are your back feet? Where are your front feet? Can they move, you know, and can they work together when you're looking at a dog that you want to raise up to jump heights? I do like to get them to full height as quickly as possible, but that's assuming that they're giving me good form.

A lot of dogs will get stuck and we're running into this actually just in week one and week two, where the dogs are starting to get stuck at certain heights. And so we'll go like, okay, they're doing eight inches and they're doing 10 inches. Now they're doing 12 inches. And then they go to 14 and it all just falls apart. So like the dogs are doing stuff and flinging their rear ends or they're over jumping and they're doing weird stuff. And I'm telling everyone, okay, let's, let's go to 13 inches, you know, which means these people have to go find a book or something off the bookshelf, shove it under the base, right? And we, we go to 13 inches and then we go to 14 after like three sessions. And guess what? The dogs are like, oh, I can jump 14. What's the problem? It's all about getting them to develop that strength and develop the ability to use their bodies. And so sometimes you will go up and down, up and down. I would rather increase the height too slowly than too quickly. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so that's going to be the goal. So slow and steady will win the race. And so if the dog is like, yeah, you know, I'm a very natural jumper. Great. They could be up to full height pretty darn quickly. If the dog is the type that, let's say you've got a dog that's, you know, not your typical agility dog. So you've, you know, they're like a, like a great example would be like a dog that's very big in mass. So like a, a Bernie's mountain dog, something like that. It's going to require a lot of power. You don't want to raise them up that quickly because they have to develop that muscle. Right. And so, and develop the ability to, to put all the parts together. So it's going to be very dog dependent, but if you go up inch by inch or two inches at a time and you look for the form to be correct, then you're not going to be pushing the dog to the point where they're going to be like, oh, I can't do this. Or I'm going to do this poorly. If you see them doing it poorly, guess what? You just back it down. And then eventually they'll be like, oh, I'm stuck at 14 for a while, but I can do 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, just fine. And then they're fine. You know, so it really is dog dependent, but it's about, especially in this class, watching your dog's behaviors and understanding what they're doing and adjusting to what they need immediately. And then it's so cool to watch the dogs just do all this work and figure this stuff out. Are there aspects of jumping that kind of get overlooked by beginners? There's aspects of jumping that get overlooked by everybody, not just beginners. Fair enough. Right. So jumping isn't sexy.

I mean, it can be, but it's really, it's not right. Most people are like, yeah, you know, if the dog clears the jump, they don't worry about how they take the jump. Right. So if the dog, as long as the bar is standing up, they're okay with that. Many people are like that. So these dogs will do all sorts of interesting things to keep jumps up. But in reality, it's really important how the dog jumps. And, you know, if they jump incorrectly, it can shorten their careers over time. It can cause excessive imbalances in the front end, the back end, in the spine. And so we want to make sure they're jumping well. But yeah, most people are like, you know, if you ask somebody, is my dog a great jumper? They'll be like, yeah. You know, they don't, they don't knock a bar ever. Um, but if you look at how these dogs take the jumps, that is a different thought, right? So many times dogs just learn to keep bars up, right? They're like, well, okay, my owner does not want the bars to drop, or they just don't like the bars to drop, whether it's the noise, whether it's the, the feeling of the bar, whatever, whether, you know, the human gets deflated if the dog knocks the bar, things like that. So they learn to do all sorts of things. They learn to hyper extend their backs. They learn to jump higher. You see some dogs, it'll jump, supposed to be jumping 20 inches and they're jumping 28, 30 inches. Um, and again, humans, myself included, I've been in this before that say, well, the bar stayed up. So guess what? It's good. But there's so much more to it than just if the bar stays up. And I think that those of us that have ever had a dog that struggled with keeping that bar up, we are the ones that have a tendency to go, okay, why is this happening? Whereas if your dog just jumps all the things and most of us don't really think about it until there's a quote unquote issue. So I think that's why people have a tendency to overlook it. Okay. So I'm going to switch gears on you here for a minute. I want to talk about handling a little bit. So, um, from a terminology standpoint, can you talk about the different types of crosses and then, um, a little bit maybe on just kind of how you decide which to use when? For sure. Yeah. So I don't know about people that are listening to the podcast, people that are doing agility, but when I, like someone described the crosses to me, I was like, what? I didn't understand it. Like I had to actually, I had to actually do it. And so, yes, I will describe it, but like, I, I feel like it's really hard to describe them

sometimes, but I will attempt to do this without any kind of anything, but words. So I'm going to go for it. So you've got a front cross, a blind cross and a rear cross. Okay. All of these are done so that the dog ends up on the other side of you. Meaning if they start on your left, they end up on the right. Or if they start on the right, they end up on the left. Um, the front cross is when you're going to be, you have to be ahead of your dog. Okay. It's the only way you can make it happen. You're going to turn towards them. And as you're turning and rotating towards them, you're going to cross their line while you're still ahead of them. And then they end up on the other side of you. That's a front. A blind cross, you also have to be ahead of your dog and you turn away from them. So if they're on your left side, you would actually look towards your right shoulder. The dog would come to the right shoulder and you're again, crossing their line ahead of them. The rear cross is when you are behind your dog. So your dog's ahead of you. You send them ahead to an obstacle and you cross behind them and they turn with you. Okay. And so you cross their line while they are ahead of you. And I know that probably people are like, huh? But when you put it into play, it does work out really well. Um, front crosses and blind crosses are easier for the dogs, harder for the handlers. And then rear crosses are easier for the handlers, but harder for the dogs because the dogs lose track of you. Right. Um, and then my rules for them are pretty simple. If you're ahead, front cross or blind cross. And if you're behind your rear crossing, you don't really have any, any choices. People make fun of me that I'm like, don't force a rear cross. If you're ahead of your dog, don't wait for your dog to get to you. You get up there and you do a front or a blind. And again, it's, they can be tough to explain until you start doing them. Um, you know, and that's, I think that's the hardest part about the crosses is once you get them and you actually work through the pieces and you do them with your dog and on the flat, and then we add jumps and stuff into it. It makes sense. You're like, oh yeah, but just describing them, it sounds probably like some weird, crazy foreign language. I will say I tend to, it took me a long time to figure out which one was which and I should remember them by name. And it was super helpful for me, at least to think of the front cross is the dogs in front of you all the time, right? So you're, it's in front of you, even as you're turning and changing sides, the dog stays in front of you.

You're looking at the front of your dog, the blind cross, you're literally blind. So you're not seeing your dog. And then the rear cross, you're looking at your dog's butt. There you go. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so more, more handling terminology or less handling, more terminology. I don't know. But a couple more phrases I want to kind of break down and talk about what are they, right? So we've got backside sends, 270s and 180s. So let's try again with describing something in words that it's much easier to probably see. Yeah, that's okay. Okay. So most people understand the idea of the dog taking the front side of a jump. And the backside is going to be where the dog is going to go around and come at the jump from the other direction. So if you're standing and you are looking at the takeoff of a normal jump, dog's going to be going in the exact same direction you're going towards that jump. If a dog is doing a backside send, they are going to go around the jump and jump towards you, taking the backside of that jump. So 270s and 180s actually refer to the angle that's between the two jumps. So a 180 would be like two jumps kind of side by side. So the dog is going to take the first jump and do 180 degree turn and take the second jump. A 270 is going to be kind of like, well, 270 degrees. So the dog is going to take a jump. Their line of travel will be 270 degrees and they will come back in over the second jump. I know, right? It's... I'm picturing the math in my head. Okay, so what's 270 degrees? Not 360, but less than that. Yeah, so it's like that, you know, 180 and then another 90. And so that you've got to think of maybe like three quarters of a circle. And so that's how the jumps would be set up. And should it be... Are they more about the handling or about the course design? They should be about the handling, like showing the dog what line to take for sure. But also good course design should be applied so that the dog doesn't have to make hard, abrupt changes to make these challenges happen. So as an example, like if I have a dog coming into a line where there's two jumps and one of them is a backside. Say the second jump is a backside. I don't want the dog coming towards that second jump, like right in the middle of the bar. I would want them angled. So it's going to be a more natural line. So I feel like that agility is tough enough and the dogs are very fast and we're going at a very fast rate of speed. And I feel like that there should be options within course challenges, but not to the point

where the dog has to like completely turn away and, you know, go crazy to try to find that line. Should be a nice and early line change so the dog can adapt to whether it's a backside send or a 180 or a 270. So it's kind of both realistically. Fair enough. Now that everybody's totally confused. Well, hopefully people aren't too confused. I think you did a good job kind of describing the pieces. Thank you. That said, I do think it's helpful to look to also have seen them in video and whatnot. So if you are confused, YouTube may be your friend. All right. So you've got two classes on the schedule at FDSA this term, both agility classes, your intro to agility class and your foundation jumping class. So I wanted to have you take a second and just kind of tell us a little bit more about each of the classes, kind of what each one maybe covers. Yeah, absolutely. Um, they are honestly, probably my favorite classes to teach just because I'm going to have people that are seasoned agility people and dogs. I'm going to have complete newbies and anything in between. And I love it. It's a nice way to get back to foundations. My intro class is about getting the dogs to commit to jumps with handler motion away. That's going to be our goals for the dogs. And it also goes over body language for the handler and how those things work together to create a complete cue for the dog. Um, that's going to be really important. So that's going to be Ag 110 kind of in a nutshell for Ag 200 foundation. Jumping is just about teaching the dog to have proper jumping technique to scope out the jumps, to adjust their striding and weight shift, to clear bars in an efficient manner. That's not just for agility. It's also for obedience, fly ball and many other sports that require jumping, but it's just about how the dog is using their body in different puzzles we present to them in grid work and one jump work and stuff like that. What kind of equipment do students kind of need to be able to apply the stuff and to really learn the stuff? Well, when I first started teaching these classes, because I've been teaching them for quite a few years, we just did like three jumps total, right? For Ag 110, three jumps for Ag 200, which is a jumping class up to five. Five jumps. Um, obviously toys, treats, things like that. But now we've gotten a little more fancy and we have all sorts of cool things like manners minders and treat and trains and canine tutors, um, using a bowl maybe to send the dog to. The nice thing is for a lot of this stuff, I don't require a sit stay. So we can make things work.

If your dog doesn't have a sit stay or if your dog is just learning about that kind of stuff, we don't have to add that into the mix in either one of these classes, which is really nice. So, um, you know, just making sure you have three to five jumps depending on which class you're taking, possibly a bowl to put food in, toys and treats and yourself and your dog. Gotcha. Excellent. All right. Any final thoughts or maybe key points you want to leave listeners with? Um, yeah. You know, without solid foundations, you have nothing to build upon or it's going to be very shaky at best. It's really important to take the time to get these foundations or you're going to be back filling training gaps in the future. You're going to be back here in this foundation class or jumping classes working on, you know, my dog's been knocking bars for three years and I don't know why or things like that. And it's developed either bad habits in the dog or bad habits in us. Uh, I can, I can speak that for myself for the longest time. For those of you that have taken my Ag 110 class, I call them sneaky toes where your toes like point in all sorts of random different directions that you don't expect them to do. I had to put my foot in a, in a box, a taped box. So I knew that my entire foot was pointing to the right spot. And if I would have had this class back when I started agility, I would have learned not to do that in the first place. It took me probably four months to retrain my foot to point to the place I wanted my dog to go to, which is just ridiculous, but it did. And, you know, I want to save people that time or if they're having issues and they're not seeing the, you know, predictability that they should have, then they can come back to these classes and say, okay, this is what I'm looking for. Right. Because honestly, I know agility is a very fun sport and it's, um, a bigger adrenaline rush. But for me personally, I like the adrenaline rush within the realm of predictability. So I want to be able to trust my dog. I want to be able to trust my handling and my training. And if you're getting unpredictable results, that means most likely you've got to go back to some foundations. Fair enough. And I think that that is a good place to end on. It's just the importance of, uh, making sure you have the strong foundation. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Loretta. Absolutely. As always, I had a great time talking with you, Melissa. I gotcha. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with the founders of Boundless Junior Agility Company to talk about

promoting the sport with junior handlers. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice. Our next episode automatically downloads your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Makingo pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense