에피소드 69: Dr. Melanie Uhde

the real laboratory like seriously yeah and and you know it's not that there's anything in terms of the surprise but it kind of just you know for me in particular also um the way i entered this field was from i'm like i i came in thinking a lot about the science behind all these things because early on when i started my own my first dog training and then a little bit into pet dog training i wasn't very skilled yet but my brain works like why am i doing these things right for a lot of other trainers they come in like just collecting a lot of years of experience and then eventually starting to look into the science and asking okay the the trainers that we support in that way um that ask how can i do better so i'm coming like from the other direction and for me it became very clear that you know you can talk about the science all day but you gotta have the experience that basically is rooted in in and seeing what's happening and science helps you know giving you the nudge and giving you some nuance there but it's still like feeling it yourself and seeing it is basically what completes the story and that part itself like i question a lot people who have very big words whether or not they have seen the things that they're talking about um because like i talk to michaelis all the time since i'm not living here um it's like yeah you know i knew this is gonna happen i understand why is he's reacting that way but now i'm actually also have to problem solve it and see it in the moment is not a totally different story but it's certainly um adding a lot of color uh to to the whole idea of training dogs for sure which part which part do you like more the the the actual training the dog or the whole mondi ring game as far as like the the mental challenges of how to train different things or like which one do you enjoy better that's a good question i like i think for me i'm not i'm not i haven't been like in this in this sport world for very long so i think i haven't been infected with like the competitive nature of you know training a dog that can compete in all these tasks but what what kind of gets me a lot is the parallels to um what we maybe not on the same level but the parallels what we expect dogs to do in this society and how to train them to perform even in real life so the the aspect of generalization for example right i don't want you to do this on that training field i want you to do that when i'm telling you these things no matter where we are or um the aspect of sometimes you also have to

because and and it's rooted and because trust me i'm telling you you have to and you'll be fine and that all of that thing is like what i think just like what a lot of nowadays in society normal dogs whether you compete or not experience all the time and the conflict that comes from that if owners or trainers don't know how to deal with that or the arousal level like the whole thing about you know wanting to have the motivated dog with high arousal and yet stay functional and and responsive to you without suppression because everyone thinks you're just cranking them up and suppressing them no that's not the case really finding finding the way to control the behavior but to create the cooperation not the suppression as you're saying and and what is the cool thing about sports especially in particularly protection sports is that you have your own dog and you can have it from a little puppy and as things go on as maturity kicks in different challenges arise and and you can experiment in so many ways like you know well how can i make him let go how can i convince him to come back how can i i so with one dog and that's your dog and there is no time limit literally and you get to experience what can work with him or her and what cannot and then put it back to into scientific uh uh ways and explain clearly why it works and why it doesn't you know um and and it's very interesting i love the i i i know that i don't like any other dog sports i mean i personally have done agility early on in the 90s i mean it was kind of by accident because you know i was living kind of where you are now in in the bay area and there was at the time really big community down south towards san jose agility i can't even remember their names but they were like like world renown at the time and they would come to they would come to like doing protection training with me with their border colleagues and almost kind of you know hush hush kind of but they were smart enough because they wanted to add a little fun a little more adrenaline a little more even confrontation if you want to where the dog can come out on the better end of things and yeah they they kind of got me into it eventually you know i they would come and i would give bites and and the dogs have fun then i would go to their club and i remember still the first time they gave me i mean it was a world team dog and they gave me the the map of the run what i need to do and the dog was losing losing his mind because he had to go over the catwalk or teeter-totter or whatever and wait for me there and spin and park and just be so frustrated that i

i'm not giving him what's the next thing to do you know and it really makes you feel like it's on me now you know i mean clearly it's on me however the the where i was going with this is the comparison between protection and agility and dog diving and fly ball and anything else really is that and i want to mention this because it always comes into conversation you know when we compare a very successful agility trainer with very successful igp or mondi ring trainer or whatever protection sport and i don't want to take away because again this is a highly skilled and and i mean today compared to the early 90s is on a very different level just like any other sport but in in this sport you're dealing with you know high arousal extreme excitement that can lead to frustration in protection sports you have kind of two paths you can present it as a okay well this is really uh and we're gonna start with the mindset that this is a game and it's very ritualistic and you don't really get to dominate to be somewhat you know show show any kind of aggression or even tap into that part of your brain um and then there is the other part of trainers that really do the protection sports the way they're designed to be and find a way how to navigate with these emotions and these moods of the dog keep them as real as they are recognize the the you know the instincts and the the different motivational systems if you want and learn how to control them and create this amazing picture which translates so easily into any any dog training that's outside sports because any dog that has some problem somewhere ties into into this kind of structure and the ways we handle and the ways we develop dogs the ways we control those of what what we learn through those sports are very applicable in in uh um pet dog training and i mean like on the other aspect i'm on during i mean the generalization discrimination stages you were talking about it's just like you know because i i train i have a female that she's going for her too right now and then i have my igp dogs i mean i can put her on a down stay and thank god i don't forget her because she's just gonna stay there because that's the game right she thinks that yeah this is a trick i'm staying here um so um how how how do you see kind of what i was talking like the how do they intertwine pet dog training problems with aggression and protection dog sports what are what what connections are you seeing if you if you

think that way well in both cases let's just put aside you know what we would define as aggression in like all the like if we just look at the actual output behavior without a motivational state is in the pet dog world something something that is being looked no i want to say look down on but something that needs to be that needs fixing right so um we can have a dog to be aggressive towards strangers or other dogs because that would kind of pose danger to other people or dogs which you know obviously makes sense um as like the societal structure that we have put together um what's interesting is that i talk about this a lot um with others too is it's a little bit almost hypocritical because even as humans as society we love violence we love being aggressive beating up something or someone we just put it into like a staged arena with like you know two boxers getting at each other um and we pay a lot of money for it like the amount of money that goes into the most violent sports is kind of crazy compared to those who i don't know play dart there's no violence yeah happening we love that and there is there is like some animalistic kind of thing in us too that we still kind of entertain and for some reasons with dogs we don't appreciate that nature that part of them it needs fixing it has to be stopped rather than finding the same concept of outlet and structure that kind of scratches the itch without obviously causing damage to society um being more integrative and being more speaking to the animal in front of us rather than what we're trying to stop constantly and you know personal protection world or ring sport or what obviously a dog that doesn't want to bite will not compete so we kind of foster that behavior but put it on a very clear kind of playground for the dog right right and finds kind of like a chance to let it all out while controlling these these impulses i don't even want to say it's an impulse it's just the behavior that comes and has its reason in nature and probably is very rewarding for a lot of dogs and so it is for humans right so we kind of see aggression everywhere in the animal kingdom but with dogs for some reason we decided that makes a dog bad and sure there are dogs that are aggressive and that kind of you know are a danger to society but it is not for all dogs that show aggression it's for some dogs pure boredom you know pure like the cry to find some purpose in their lives and they speak to like the closest what gives them some sort of outlet for their frustration yeah so i think we kind of need

to redefine how we see aggression um sure all these analyses of is it fear based is it rewarding is it habit all that plays a part but the outcome still if it stays the same and it needs fixing i think there's some okay maybe this dog needs an outlet that kind of speaks to the dog better yeah yeah the the i made recently uh a little solo podcast thing about uh it was resolve guarding that's right um because of the the whole narrative that really any any any kind of aggression aggression is fear based and of course if you just keep peeling the onion and strip down to to then then everything is fear and then really nothing is fear at this point and then it's like well what are we like come on um and and that's kind of like my take you know um like when you this is when i believe that of course there is some fear aggression you know of course there is sometimes the the dog is very concerned about their you know self-preservation well-being or or whatever they have and you know but then there is a whole different group of dogs that i kind of group them all on their competing type of aggression that that has a different purpose and and searching for a very different outcome and the the cool thing about the the two is that when you let's say a dog is fearful and snaps at you for whatever reason as you're getting close right and you back off you back off enough to where the dog is like okay i'm safe now and it takes about 15 30 seconds for that dog to just go back to its base it's not it's it's over because everything is done to where when we have the competitive type of aggression that that has a different intentions there is something that the dog is trying to negotiate and insist on even after the confrontation they're not done they actually kind of look and it persists like did you acknowledge that because if you didn't now i'll repeat you know like like it's about who's who's driving the car here you know it's a very different take and and when you have when you have um you take either dog and you treat it the wrong way to try to fix it it's gonna fire back right and what happens i think is that the the the like the force free trainers generally are more successful with the dogs that are the aggression is fear based even though that's very in my opinion very small portion of those that are uh aggressive that way and it's typically very easy because you you just leave it alone and the dog is at peace and it kind of results but anyway the the force free are way more successful because of their approach there

where balanced trainers are or at least some some balance trainers because there's like levels there they are definitely more successful with the other type of aggression because uh um now now there is you know even if it's a social hierarchy whatever it is but there is some structure there is some negotiation that needs to some who is who here right and so they i i see how both camps can be right but then you flip the dogs and in both sides they end up in a really bad disastrous situation because you know you cannot work with fear aggressive dog the same way we would do with the other and the other way around um and and this is a it's a such a problem that we have that you know we stick to narratives and and not trying to to find what works and why it works and in which cases it works and instead it's the the one glove the one size fits all that that seems to be in in both camps like on average the idea it's like no it it's like yeah it works like it works with my dog it's like the you know i mean somebody says well i don't need chemotherapy it's like good for you that you don't but some people really you know that's the the only thing that they probably have hopes for you know and and and and we just mix it because of the little heights and it's so stupid um and then you know like the ones that you were talking about the those experiences this is the i i was about to talk about this anyway in the um um marvin zuckerman the sensation seeking it's a super super crazy like i i will i will put the links to this to people to see uh but it's uh i don't know like late 70s or somewhere in there he he came up with some really cool stuff uh um and and and basically he originally i think he was doing some he was interested in sensory deprivation kind of like what the military like the cias and stuff do um but then started to realize that there is a uh um you know the sensory deprivation actually leads to the of course increased anxiety and this kind of weirdness and and but then he realized that there is also personalities and he just goes really deep into it and i think he revised that it's called sensation seeking and he made i think four or five he kept kind of refining his idea and basically he divided it in four he was like three or four groups thrill seeking um experience seeking disinhibition and boredom so successy susceptibility i can never say this word susceptibility and in the thrill seeking like talking people but it's just the same thing with dogs these are you know the the people and dogs

that enjoy they seek this risky activity you know some some being sport being whatever in life but but it's a potentially pretty dangerous experiences that produce this unique sensation that's why he called it he called it he called it thrill seeking sensation and and basically really what you were talking about just a minute ago um added that everything else in your life is okay if you're that type of personality you will be seeking this type of adventures this is as you said like the the in fact you know what i'll just play this video because it's super cool uh and i will leave it to play for for people but this is what we're talking about when we're talking about uh um who who wants to put themselves in situations like this but let's play it real quick like It's a perfect call for a bingo clerks watch Oh I make the difference Oh my god No worries Steve, the smack ball has been greeting everybody just that gently all day Oh ho ho, hello Aloha Konnichiwa Like you know you're gonna get busted sooner or later Good afternoon, good evening and good night Oh my god Antiques into the face, she could be the first one to cry Nevermind Oh And this guy Oh I mean it goes on and on There is a master here He's like just He's the champion I reckon tough guy Jason's new record could be in trouble He's timing it, he really is timing it, he's not taking the punches, he's timing his way round I think I've got a new era And then of course you have the MMA Oh my god Super nice punching Nobody forces them to do this They are crying to do this because they know that it gives them that whatever rush you know like it There is this you know like the same with the dogs like seeking this kind of discomfort adversity it provides the stimulation and the challenge that they are actually really craving for the certain things that they are really craving for the certain things that they are really craving for the The certain types of dogs Now would I do this to that extreme? Probably not But are there people that love to do it for free? Absolutely, right? And then we have the dogs So if you know like when we are talking about like the five domains right it is such a popular conversation to have the nutrition environment health and then the behavior that leads to the right mental state and now the nose work is the best thing ever right in the fourth three Sure

And the nose work I mean I do IGP I do Mondeurin I mean there is plenty of scent work in both sports and I love it I go everyday tracking with my dogs but I know that you know that's not for every dog they will like to do it but they will not get what they are really seeking like a thrill seeking type of personality will never say wow this that's all I need they can do nose work but they are going to eventually be like try to get some challenge provoke some situation create something simply because they are craving it and as you said if we don't give it to them in a controlled context it goes into what we would call the behavioral problems and and and then you have so back to him how he made them you know you have this thrill adventure seeking dogs and oh and the other thing besides the nose work this is like oxymoron thing even if you want like you have a force free trainer and again nothing against this like I and how sometimes seems like I am against force free all together and I am not I am not I am really not but you have a training protection dog in sport and that dog really is a thrill seeking type of dog that strives thrives on some conflict some challenge and finding ways how to control it and how to you know that that's that's what's about and then you have the force free trainer that is trying to do it without discomfort and aversive while the dog is actually the only reason he likes to do it is because he's trying to challenge it and overcome it and it's like okay but but all right you know if that's how you want to do it that's fine then he has Marvin Zuckerman has the thrill seeking then experience seeking which is a a level below and it's very different and that's kind of where you would think of you know like if it's a person he will go hiking or do arts or something that is you know very stimulating but it does not have that adversity seeking challenge seeking and and in dogs would be what we were talking you know like you take fly ball take agility there is plenty of emotions that are flying and just you know but it's a very different set that gets activated and then the interesting ones that he puts is the other two and the one the first one or the third one in his order is the disinhibition and the disinhibition basically it's like you know like he says it's kind of like with humans he would say more of like okay well it's like all party life and drugs and and and some kind of you know escape of situations and finding reason of satisfying but it's kind of displacement disinhibition and and we in dogs we can argue that we can see it in you know like the your typical excessive exciting type of dog that's just has to walk

on the flexi lead around the block and they're like well he walks five times a day yes but he still walks on a flexi lead five times a day so he's losing its mind and you know any any kind of OCD all this compulsive stereotypic behavior all this you know it's just the lack of not having something that that you're craving that that you're craving and you're searching it and and it goes into this weird places and then we're trying to fix it without realizing or without recognizing that it's not that hard to get fixed depending on of course everything has levels and and some different reasons but more or less in the bigger scoop of things the problems are lack of outlet outlet and that's when when we say well we have the nose work yes but I don't like nose work I like to punch somebody in the face I don't like to play chess right and if we don't recognize that then it goes bad and then the last one that he had was the boredom I cannot say the susceptibility yes yes yes you know it's it's kind of they they just lose concentration interest not even they just lose interest of whatever they're asked to do or they choose to do simply again though because it doesn't touch the soft spot in their brain or heart that gets them engaged engaged when that happens then it goes much I mean I mean it goes on and on and it can be the exact what you would call repetitive stuff that you're doing but it hits the home base so that's kind of similar to to you know when we talk about fear based then you have the competitive kind of whatever ranking anything I don't want to put words and people to start fighting over words but then we have this sensation seeking types that we need to recognize and if whenever we're talking seriously about the five domains nobody would ever argue at least I wouldn't with how important nutrition is how important sleep is how important the environment the health but when it comes to the mental state what behaviors and what activities suits one individual and then we make it oh let's everybody do nose work and it's like no it cannot work it's it just cannot work well I'll let you talk a little bit because I get I mean it just blows my mind when you know somehow always the the have to pull the rug towards the direction of aversives are bad discomfort is bad stress regardless of what kind of stress is bad the dog has to be able to choose and do you really choose and it's like if I tell him to go ahead and buy the decoy and he says I don't want to buy the decoy there is nothing in my knowledge that I can do to convince him to go and do it right right just like

if you tell me go and fight this other day MMA fights it's like a hard no like I don't care what money it is just a no you know but you ask somebody else and they will say yeah let's go right now anyway what what are you thinking I have a lot of thoughts I know I just I just went off here no no it's good so just like something just along in the line what what I watched very recently on Netflix it's called Physical Asia and they're like different Asian selected athletes from different countries competing against the other and the it's a it's a Korean South Korean show and the challenges are insane it's not just something it's like insane and one of the challenges was to for a certain amount of time run on a treadmill and then you know who ran the fastest ball but like after that like this guy it was like I was given everything so much so I tasted the blood in my lungs all in my throat that's he's like that's how I knew I gave it my all and like this is crazy like I'm running and I probably would never run to the point where I would taste the blood in my throat and and yes they're competing sure for money I don't think it's the external reward of money that makes you do that I think there's something else that drives you you have to be a certain personality that is willing to go that far to to to win again not to win something just to win through that challenge itself because you win I mean it is a win but it's the biggest win is inside yourself right that's really the biggest win I don't think like the the money they would have gotten or they they whoever won is matters all that much in that moment I don't think any external reward can make you perform that way in that moment unless it's something that speaks to what what's aligned with who you are like a dog that really likes to bite the external reward is a decoy that you can bite but I think it's not the just because of the the bite there it's like what happens inside doing that biting that makes that dog crazy for it but like the whole aggression understanding of aggression research per se you know has has for a very long time researchers have been really interested in the concept of aggression because it's not that simple and we have in research far beyond the idea that it's always fear based like no one I'm going to say no one obviously those who do are interested in fear and fear aggression talk about it but that that conversation in research has expanded significantly over the last 10 20 years and one one review kind of stood out to me where they took rats or mice rats I think and rats as we know they're prey animals they're prey animals there is no reason for them to be liking aggression makes no sense to them they don't have to necessarily

maybe the territorial aspect of it sure but like you know like a coyote or whatever chasing some prey animal actually has to show all this aggression to get food at the end they don't really have to do that and yet and sure it's a little bit of like selecting a certain strain so it's a little bit un-magnifying glass to look at it but it doesn't mean it's not true sure there's like they set up the experiment where you the rats they could press a lever in order for a door to open and there you have a submissive other rat that you can go and fight now it is something about winning there so it had to be a submissive mouse or rat they also had to go through the learning of I press the lever then the door opens it's a it's a sign for motivation like are they willing to put effort into are they willing to work to press the lever to press the lever and it's not just one lever they experimented with this how many lever presses are they willing to go through in order for the door to open they ran this with a bunch of and about one third if I remember correctly or maybe two thirds they were like but they weren't like crazy for it they didn't go constantly to the lever even if the lever was accessible to fight and then there's a maybe another third I know that's like two thirds maybe a little less than a third every time there was a lever and they would press it and they would then go on and fight the other they find it rewarding but then it was the smallest percentage but nevertheless it was there a subset of these rats that showed addictive towards getting into a fight and what they did is when they saw the lever like little crack heads they would press on that lever they could not wait like I'm gonna die on this lever but I will fight and again these are prey animals these are prey animals now take a predator take a dog take like the percentage quantitatively measure this the percentage of those this thrill is probably more than half plays a role here sure but that's how like a lot of the research now goes into what is it about this addictive behavior for some animals I mean a lot of these animal model studies are really there to understand humans not so much they don't care really about fixing anything in the rat world they just use them as animal models for humans too and then dogs too so yeah there is there is no we should talk about this is aggression there yes or no or is it fear based I find that super interesting like you see this in other animals you can measure it there you see how much effort they're willing to put in that kind of effort that a dog is willing in order to find that the confrontation is a good measure for the motivational state and

it's genetically predisposition for this kind of sensation it's a very different and I think probably the biggest mistake is that we're just trying to get some kind of average of everybody you really do a great disadvantage to the those thrill seeking genetically predisposition and like we we breed working Malinois you can see them from you can see them what 15 half blind the choices high value food well they wouldn't be interested in that point but let's say there is a female in heat there is no question that it's a very am going to do this the highest because it's challenging the big argument of well there is no agency if you do the and this is another like you know that whole So of course, no way to control it, no way to predict it. Same disastrous result. However, there is a third group that nobody wants to talk about. Right? The group that actually is contingent, like you have the command, then the dog has a choice, and then there is different outcomes, different consequences. And it's so frustrating when that study gets cited. Like I've searched on the AIs how many times it's been cited, and I think it was like 90 times strictly on the canine science, right? Not one time in those 90 times, not one time, they mentioned that when done and it's contingent upon, it's highly effective, and besides the temporary stress to solve the puzzle, there is no, there is like zero welfare concern. And, and, I don't know. Frustrating. I was thinking to talk studies later, but here I am. No, because they always talk about the agency and about the control, and it's like, well, the dog didn't choose to get chocked, did it? No, it didn't.

That's what you said at the beginning. Now there's always like this, this, this twisting of words and facts and concepts that makes you like, like it reaches a point where like, we're not talking rational or logical anymore. Now it's just like, who can come up with like some crazy idea about justifying whatever you, you're trying to justify. Sorry to interrupt you, but I have to mention this one because I, I saw you were, you had to, I don't know why you choose to, but you had to deal with Jenny. That I had the three hour or how long podcast I had where eventually she was asking me why I don't do this to tigers. And it was like, that that's now where we are. Like we're not doing this to tigers. Oh gosh. Yeah. I, yeah. I should have written down like, like all these things that, that there's just the, yeah. The makes me feel speechless. I don't even know how to respond to that anymore. Like what, why are we talking about tigers or anything else? Super unrelated to that. Like the amount of analogies that we come up with defeats the point of analogies. I've talked about this before too. So an analogy is there to kind of make a concept understood easier, not to completely come up with like a new, take you off the rails. Right. Yeah. So yeah, that's where we are. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, like, I mean, you, you tell the dog to lay down before the bite. The dog knows very well what to do and says, I'm not going to wait right now. I'm, I'm going to take my bite and I'm taking a chance. And there is some, not so good outcome for him, but he made that decision and he took that risk. And sometimes he might work. This is what I believe they actually, it's part of why they lied again, because they understand at some point the rules. And of course, when we have rules, we try to bend them and see how much we can bend them. And when you can, you know, and then you have to play by the rules at the same time. And that becomes, you, you're totally under control, but you're making the choices in different situations, how you want to act. And that's what makes that game. If, if we're talking protection sport right now, that's what is huge part of the game that makes it interesting of like, okay, I'm, I'm really losing my mind. I really have to go with that decoy and, and really show him. And I'm saying, no, no, not right now. And now we have to negotiate and we have to cooperate. We have to find a way how. Ultimately, the dog is always in control of where they can guide the, the situation. So, it would be very different if somebody starts to do what I mentioned, with childcare study, you know, just totally like flip a coin shock, flip a coin, crazy leash pop, or,

or simultaneous conditioning, or, or, or I mean, there is many ways to do it wrong. Or, or I mean, there is many ways to do it wrong. Or, or I mean, there is also a way to do it right. And any trainer that's successful, they have no choice, but to do it right at the end of the day. and doing it right means the dog has agency at that point. There's no, just cannot be argued about, but that is a big argument for some reason. You know, when you, it's interesting when you say do it right and good trainers learn how to do it right. Some arguments we hear a lot, and I'm sure you've heard that a lot too. It's like, yeah, you have trained and successfully competed at the highest level. You know what you're doing, but there's so many trainers who don't know what they're doing. They're using e-collars and they're shocking the dogs, and that's why we need to ban this because they do not know how to do it right. And then the other, and it goes hand in hand with that, is, well, the timing in order to use punishment has to be impeccable. It has to be called like within a millisecond for the dog to understand it. And it's one of these other extremes that they're taking the conversation to because I don't think that's true. And I don't think data tells you that's true. And I also think experience-wise, two things that happen. Dogs are a lot more intelligent than we think, than people treat them in terms of learning. If you're off by a second or two, but you're somewhat consistent in that realm, the dog might not be perfect for competition behavior, but if it's like a pet dog training, they will learn, they will figure it out, and they will figure it out despite the mistakes that we make because they're not stupid. Right? And the other thing is also that for me, it's like, okay, let's assume you're an upcoming trainer. And I'm fairly young in my, at least for the sport world, career, like, or like journey. There has been certainly some things that there were, I admit, make mistakes, have made mistakes already. But because I'm also young at this, fresh in this, I'm also very careful of these things. I don't know anyone who just starts out to put a knee collar on and unconditionally or like non-contingently, that's the dog around to the point where the dog is traumatized. Those are trainers. Those that have done this, those who do that have done this for a very long time, and they deserve to be called out. Yeah. But not the young ones who seek out education or young ones in their journey or like trying these things. And they need to give them the space to learn these things in a non-judgmental way

so that we can actually then differentiate between those who kind of like don't care about the welfare of dogs or don't care about improving their techniques and call them out. And those who are actually in the learning process and would make a mistake or two. But the dog will be okay. Like there is, the dog experiences pain for a second, sure, whatever training. Maybe yelps for a moment. None of these things have ever been indications of compromised welfare. There are other factors that matter much more. Yeah. Especially looking into the long-term outcome of, you know, sometimes the choices people have to make for their dogs are very challenging and very difficult too. And with the electric colors, I agree with you. I actually, I think I say this quite often. Yes, they are available to buy at PetSmart. Yes, they are available to buy online. And yes, people buy them because we know we did buy them. like I sometimes talk to some of the owners of the electrical companies. It just happens to, I don't really know any of them, like on a personal level, but anytime I have an option in person to meet and talk, one of the questions that I ask is, how are the sales going? Because it's interesting for me because that's a very solid data of what's happening out in the real world. And the most interesting part is Europe with the biggest brags of how the bands and how, you know, I mean, it's what, 2003, 2004, it's when the whole thing started with Van de Bourg and Schindler, that study, the sales increase every year, like in 2025, December, right now, compare the sales anywhere in the European Union to last year, they're higher. And that tells you that, first of all, legislations are not working. But it raises also a concern because people buy them, they don't know, because it has to be, it's taboo, so it's behind doors, or you go somewhere and instead of really doing a good work with it, you have this one time, so it's not the optimal way to work with electric collars, but do they? Yes. And they would say, well, you only know about sport world people. And that's not true. Sport world is quite small, especially protection sports. So, you cannot sell, you can sell so many electric collars to the sport people, right? But the sales go, and, and, I guess the, the biggest problem with everything that we are facing right now is, do aversive, first of all, have any place in modern dog training? and is, R plus, with all the counter conditioning, decentralization, primax principle, differential reinforcement, let's name them all, can all that substitute and, not do better, but just do as good without aversives? And, it's a hard no. It's like, it's not,

there cannot be argument which, we bring the studies for that too, but, we don't even need studies because it's just, they're innate motivational systems that once they get triggered, this is it. And, sure enough, there are levels. Yes, there is a dog that, kind of butterfly hops towards the squirrel and you say, hey, come, I give you something and they're like, sure, I come. And then there is the other, the other is like, no, that thing is going to die right now. And, and that's the end of the story. And, and what is really crazy is that they don't even need this, you know, it's a biologically program, they don't even need to have the, to kill two squirrels already. it's, it's, it's kind of like the, you know, the funny joke about how the rabbit knows to run away from a fox. It's like, well, it's not through experience because once the fox gets it, it's dead. Right? And, and, but we fool each other when we talk about the, the possibilities of our plus. We really fool each other and then we create studies that are so easily, there is, there is no evidence in those studies that what the claim is that actually works. and, I think this is the biggest thing and once we, I don't think, I was going to say once we agree but we will never agree on this with them. But, if we were to agree that aversives have a place, then we can come to the conclusion that the electric color is arguably the safest of all aversives because of control and level of intensity and so on and so on and, and, you know, it just triggers what it needs to trigger in the brain but it's a false alarm but it's highly effective. Right? I mean, that's why they did all the studies with electric. They, they used to bang them and hit them and pinch them and all the birds and rats got injured in the first two tries and they cannot make a study, right? So, so I think it's really about is it even possible to talk about the use, not the use but the, the importance of aversive because there is really no substitute to it in certain situations. Or like, in general, like, we treat aversive control and positive reinforcement as if, like, they're just two sides of the same coin and you can't if you don't use this or the other and that's like utter nonsense like in the whole animal kingdom and biology or nature. There is no replacement for one or the other. They both have their own evolved systems and serve a certain function ultimately comes down to survival of the fittest or the one who can reproduce the best and seek pleasure and avoid discomfort. There is no flopping back and forth and you can get to a certain extent with one or the other as like a primary training method if you will but don't underestimate the fallout something will have if you think you can completely replace one with the other and it goes

in both directions. Right. I mean, I don't know anyone who really just uses punishment that would be even though you know you're probably you're probably I think you're known to be the punishment based trainer and you don't use any rewards in your training but there is no replacement and the fallouts that people don't want to see because they are a little more subtle maybe but to my or for me equally detrimental to the wealth of dogs is creating for one the illusion that you can fix something and put a dog through like a six month five month four month training system that does nothing but add conflict because you're trying to convince a dog to do something for something the dog just does not care about much that becomes aversive like take this freaking treat or this freaking play toy whatever and stop chasing the squirrel differential reinforcement stuff right like I don't want to so now you're like there okay well either I keep you on the leash I manage you but the dog doesn't want or you take something and there's a place for that in training too right where dogs have to learn to take something of lesser value maybe to access something else bigger value later on right but that cannot be always like that no that's the magic of the desentization thing that they you know it's like of course that there is there are plenty of places where you can do it but try to do it with some innate predatory motor pattern thing and it's going to work until the moment when that heart just keeps a beat and that dog makes that look and now the system is activated and end of story and then what kind of makes them believe I think what really makes them believe that they are on the right track is because up to that point they were successful because the trigger was dormant and as soon as you take it just one notch below the trigger is dormant again and it's working again and it makes you think that you just need more time now take a step back right and how do you explain that when somebody is so convinced that they can do it when it comes to the reward system let's think about the reward system right so that is nuanced as well and evolutionarily seeking out external rewards in terms of food per se just scavenging and finding a bush that has some fruit like we are living in the wild and we've never been there before and we're going around the corner and there's a bush and it has these pears or whatever it's not a bush but like a tree or whatever and we're like oh wow that is very tasty and we'll go back to the tree over and over to get that pear but there will be a time we'll be like well if I found a tree with tasty pears maybe there's somewhere a tree with something even better or more trees with more pears so the seeking is kind of set up so that we will always try to seek more that's why we are addicted to our phones or whatever the dopamine hit we're trying to get something more and more and more

and that's true for you get a piece of food and eventually that piece of kibble is not enough so you have to level up so there's always a time where the dog makes a choice either I kind of try to exploit this a little more and get more from you or I go out and seek something else and there is you hit a ceiling we as humans hit a ceiling because there's just so many sausages or steaks we can produce but the system doesn't hit a ceiling the dopamine seeking system will never be satisfied completely for forever always seeking something else but I do think and I haven't found any clear data because you can't really measure that that much like with the predation and in the moment stuff but I think it's a little different with the internal sensational rewarding exciting whatever feeling arousal for like these innate behaviors like chasing stalking going after something that will always be magnitude in its way once it's and it kind of aligns with the dog wanting to do that right meaning you basically are there left with competing externally with a reward there will never be enough plus you also want to compete with something because they're just not the priority at those moments just at those moments otherwise they are working phenomenally well but at those moments they don't and that's where the confusion comes as you talk about yeah exactly I think this internal thing that drives behavior that is independent of external reward because it's not dependent on the dog actually catching the squirrel will be more powerful than being dependent on external rewards and you can compete with that by offering something else instead because that's a loose situation for the dog it's like I don't even know what you have right now is what I want or need but this right now feels amazing to me and on top of it I might chase and catch the squirrel I don't know what I'm going to do with it probably then it's going to get boring that's true whatever that's true too yeah that's very true so the only the competing part there is like something else that is internally driven which is avoidance behavior and avoiding discomfort avoiding that learn to you know comes with its own relief rewarding sensation once you successfully avoided it is kind of like a better competitor to the internal rewarding activity than it is to have an externally rewarding activity right and then it opens the door to you can reward pretty much anything you want right right then you can come in with your differential reinforcement you know it's like sure all these things that you guys are talking about because now the dog is back to okay what are we doing right and but it doesn't work that way even in a conversation we cannot get to agreement to this and it's I don't think it's a matter of not understanding this I don't I am sincerely genuinely puzzled why this is still an argument because okay I mean somebody

like you know just like the many people on social media that they're just spoon fed the narrative okay that's besides the conversation but the people there's people that understand because this is not complicated this is really not like some astrophysics we're not it's a clear clear just different biological motivation systems like the predatory hierarchy sex drive the sensations again all this like even even if we like we understand this subconsciously but somehow Skinner said one day that society is going to be free of our sifts and that R plus going to just be the best thing ever on planet earth but nobody asked well that didn't happen I mean that was a long time ago and it still didn't happen and it wasn't because of lack of effort even his errorless learning never ever took off besides Eduardo Fernandez's life thing and you know his errorless learning study where he proved that trial and error dogs suck and the other ones are so much better off and when you I don't know if you've read that one but that's mind blowing too because out of how many dogs were there only eight finished the other ones kind of lost interest even even the errorless learning dogs they just lost interest but it doesn't even say well it doesn't say probably because nothing happens but when you're talking about trial and error learning you have to explain what happens when they make the error and that just left in a blank so it makes you think well did anything happen or they had to kind of have some discovery at how moments like I don't know the clearly we have to have consequences in on earth I mean anything you have a plant and there is sun and there is shade and there is water and there is not so much water and different plants will choose a very dramatically different environment they're plants right but we are like oh no everybody needs this amount of water and this amount of sun no that's not how life works and that's I think that's just the well the hardcore I don't think all four three people think this way but the hardcore the people that are after the legislation and the bands their objective is to of course to get rid of any use of aversives and unfortunately they're not providing a substitute because if there is a substitute why not I would consider it why would I not I mean why would I not right if and even then we still have to recognize the sensation seeking the thrill seeking those that they

besides behavior problems just like somebody likes rock climbing somebody likes punching the face you know like there is that whole other reason why aversives are good I mean you take the little kid that gets bullied at class that struggles at home with his second mom or whatever and yeah there are a few different paths that can happen but quite often the best one is going to some martial arts school and hopefully there is a good community and you become a good kid right and the same happens with the you know the I had this one podcast here six and a half hours and I don't know how I'm gonna I really don't want to edit it but we are kind of talking over each other I don't know but eventually I'm gonna pause that but I was explaining how because the anytime somebody disagrees with or anytime somebody want to kind of I don't even know what word to use here kind of diminish my position it's like well you're a sport trainer you're working with this highly selected highly bred highly whatever Hollywood it's like no I train pet dogs and I train dogs with problems since 1991 this is a very fucking long time and every time every day in my kennel I have some really interesting crazy hardcore difficult case because it's interesting and I'm trying to help I was trying to tell them that a shy dog being picture anything any any dog you pull from the shelter or some whatever some mixed little breed that it's lacking confidence it doesn't necessarily have like some strong genetic like non-noise sensitivity something that we cannot deal with but basically it's a confidence thing it's like okay you try to pet him and he cowers and doesn't avoid and so on and highly aware of everything very concerned you put him you have again two choices you can comfort and provide stability and never resolve and build the confidence or you can provide the discomfort or the fear the demon that is in there in a very controlled level and allow and teach and show the dog how to succeed over it so it's either comfort or overcome and basically where the recent conversations you've been having about resilience and stuff like you cannot ever accomplish resilience through comfort nobody nobody that wants to become I can do this this is not a choice that you're searching comfort you're trying to overcome something and you need the right doors you need the right of course you need the right setup and everything it has to be done properly but if you really want to build up self confidence which is all the time happens it's strictly about controlling and overcoming challenges that are adverse in some way right I talk a lot oh I like it

obviously it's a very passionate topic because the way I think like the tools like the color and the prong color and aversive tools it's one category and we sometimes get stuck on tools yes or no but then that kind of provides the ground for the certain communities to say well I can do the same most of it without the tools why would I have to use it but it's kind of a narrow minded view you got to zoom out a little bit and mean in the bigger pictures like it's about overcoming adversity and a dog that has never had to overcome anything adverse and there are a lot of force free trainers that say we do use stress and I would like to know how that actually looks like I never got to that conversation but in my mind there is obviously overcoming some challenge in order to gain a reward at the end sure but there's also something to be said about overcoming something the dog just does not like in that moment even if there isn't a reward waiting because that is sitting in that discomfort coming out of it and sure you can sweeten the deal per se and say like yeah whatever there can be a reward but it's not for the reward I'm not doing it for the reward and that part is outside the realm of force free war reinforcement probably reinforcement only you cannot apply these concepts in a purely rewarding way and I've gotten a lot of hate for that but I do think that because the force free community is but you think it's because they don't understand what you're saying or because they don't like what you're saying like I don't like what I'm saying I think they're understanding and everyone who has lived longer than 18 years on this planet has experienced it themselves because there has been a moment where they had to do something that they didn't want to do and they didn't get rewarded for it and they had to do it anyways and they didn't die and they probably came out better and probably even they're 40-50 years old they're going to tell their children you know there was a time when I had to do these things that I didn't like and they had to do it anyway we all tell these stories and there are books after books after books that are being published the discomfort crisis or the challenge is the way where we talk about the pain and discomfort and how this makes us stronger and of course the nuances and the setup has to be right so it does for the dog but an anxious timid dog needs to be able to understand that working through the discomfort is not the end of it it would be the biggest accomplishment for that dog they would really be like things changed yeah right I can do this I can be right someone who keeps the head up high and I don't have to hide or avoid and obviously they don't have that conscious thought but there are new biological systems that are in place to make a to create this emotional state of oh I actually feel good about myself right now that's weird let's do this again let's try the challenge again Melanie let me ask you this then if that's the case do you think they

do it I mean there are plus people because they know that it has a place but they really believe that the majority of people on earth cannot apply it right do not understand that and it will lead to massive abuse of dogs all over the world and it's some sort of prevention like would that be a reason why they do it they're so hardcore based on the comments that I get and it's for example in the context of asking the dog for consent to get handled that's for example one of the things where I don't necessarily have a reward if I need to clip your nails I need to clip your nails and you have to learn to hold still and I may give you something but maybe I'll just move on with life right after because whatever and it's one of these examples where I'm like you know that's potentially stressful and at worse to a certain level my dog rather is not in that situation and it's good for the dog to learn to work through that the comments I get is usually well everyone if everyone would take this for face value that means they all would kind of like force the dog and potentially be super violent that way and I don't know wrestle this dog down and clip the nails and that's not necessary because that would lead to abuse and I think that's I understand where they're coming from I understand that concept but that narrative comes from a place of because they've never experienced it themselves right and they've never done in that way potentially themselves for it to go so horribly wrong or they have seen someone who really has done it the wrong way and I'm all about education I'm all about sure that's you know if you need to kind of teach the dog first still cue and you reward for that but you gotta like you said at the beginning with your own dog gotta experiment with like what works and what doesn't and you're not gonna break your dog with one session of like maybe not going well because you held the dog dog's paw and the dog got really upset about it and the research science is telling us very very clearly that resilience happened in those moments where we overcome a challenge where animals overcome a challenge and that is more general and it's not even not only sorry to interrupt because the way my brain works I will totally forget it and hopefully you are not like me and you can keep going once I said but it's not just resilience it's also a big element of trust there that trust is like you know the big argument of you dog's gonna just fear you for life and you lose their trust and actually these are the moments that trust kind of gets exposed for what it is and if it's there and if you understand how you handle the situations that's one of the huge benefits of all of the outcome it's because of that you know I mean I mean there has to be some sometimes things will go wrong and and go wrong doesn't I know people now will start thinking some shocking and abusing

and go wrong meaning anything you know like we can get confused or whatever but there is the conflict resolution skills to where it's like I don't like you to cut my nails that process of me convincing you to trust me that I will clip your nail and there is no any other outcome I'm not bargaining with you about it but just that conversation that we're going to have and I convince you that I clip your nail this no forced negotiations can reach that level of trust and cooperation it's just not possible because there is no need for that in their world anyway I really I don't know no I agree and that reminds me like this this idea also like you know how the narrative goes like you are your dog's number one person so you would harm the trust punishment or whatever should never come from you you're right it's the opposite it should never come really from someone the dog doesn't know because that leads to the wrong outcome of like now I hate you or like I don't want to work with you but if anything you're the only qualified person to apply any kind of training method effectively because of the trust and because of the social reconciliation you can have after and that's very very very meaningful through the relationship more so than anything else like well not anything else but more so than just the rewards per se that you produce and provide and uh in the same way you know like I wouldn't holding my my Ollie's paw to clip his nails and knowing kind of like he will try to wait for a moment yes I wouldn't do that necessarily with a dog I don't trust or no either right it goes both ways like we I we know each other we know our limits and I know this is not this is not tipping over correct 100% and I mean I just to stay with that nail example because I know people will go off in all sorts of direction it doesn't mean that you grab the paw and the dog is trying to move away and you're like there is no chance you're losing that battle no if he freaks out and says hold on I'm really freaking out yeah I would let him go and show him that he has that option and then we come back to it again it's definitely not the picture of you know let's just squash him down and he cannot move and he just clip those nails no matter what that's not what we are talking about no no and that's what they usually take it to that point yes if it sounds like this is what we are saying what I'm saying is like in the realm of modern dog training we don't talk about brute force in any of those things all of those require some level of skill and nuance and if you're not there yet you can learn that that's what education is for but we can't always take it to the extreme that way right so yeah I think that's one of those things that have so many benefits and sure you can do all the green light red light consent behavior training and it might be a relationship experience

in different ways but what happens to your dog if it will have to get handled elsewhere the vet is a classic example or has to get you have to examine your dog because there is something stuck in the paw that hurts and here comes the same what I said earlier now if something hurts you have an instinctive avoidance behavior in that dog because the dog is like I don't want you to touch it because the brain is like we need to protect it don't touch it and then on top of it it layers in the learned behavior of saying hey you taught me that I always can completely avoid that situation because I'm giving you the red light more or less now you're adding two conflicts you're adding the conflict but now I have to the dog doesn't know the difference between what I mean now I don't want to now especially I don't want to now the dog doesn't know the difference of now you really have to and on top of it the dog is already stressed and hasn't learned to work through this concept of I'm stressed a little bit and I don't want to right to their defense they will say well we have gabapentin and trazodone it's like yes you do but you're still missing the big picture of a dog trusting you that sometimes life just brings these things that you deal with and you come out something very good comes out of this kind of situations you know like and I wish I can talk to some I mean I'm going to talk about this with I have a forced re-trainer coming to my podcast hopefully you know they very often reschedule it and then they put it away and put it away and put it away and I keep reminding them for five six months and finally I don't think you want to do it and then they get offensive and it's like defensive and it's like well if you talk like this no then we're not doing it you know but hopefully I have that conversation with this guy soon like this week and one of the things is you know like you take a game you take possession games like tug of war game and you have two directions to teach the dog to let go the one would be to offer something different and basically make that not interesting in whatever shape or form and the other one is to keep it as interesting as it possibly can be and have this bubble bath of brain chemicals that are saying let's go and make him control himself or herself and do that out and then accept that there will be some consequence if needed and it's going to be something aversive but you're maintaining that state and you're creating cooperation in that state which is the interesting state that you want the dog to be at so if you're playing tug of war but the dog is not really it's kind of when we were talking about chasing a squirrel there is two ways to chase a squirrel one is like oh look at this thing hopping I'm going after it and the other one is I'm killing you right now and it's the same how you can play tug of war and the one has extremely cool benefits in terms of making

certain agreements between you and the dog and learning how you can control behavior through cooperation and not universal suppression but also making it super interesting or you can keep the game in that really lame level that the dog never gets to experience what possession game really is the first one has yeah I get so hot about this because I think they like it's well I can teach them to let go without aversives sure everybody can like everybody can I can promise you that if I play with that dog and you play with that dog and he outs for you with for a treat and he outs with me because we made an agreement and we put that dog in front of the two of us and choose which one that dog wants to play with regardless if it's a highly well bred malinois or very spooky border collie bull mix the majority of dogs will go for the challenge because they want to control it because they know how to control it which tells you again that there is that innate desire to challenge yourself and nose work is not a challenge there is there is discomfort there is like different thing when a rat terrier goes on their ground you can give them any rat on top of the ground you can give them whatever chicken you want but if there is a rat in the ground or whatever it is in the ground and they may come out half blind and bleeding and guess what they will go in the next hole with even more enthusiasm because of the nature of what's about and I can never explain this to a force free trainer for some reason yeah well like I think again let me give you that that reminded me of this I think it's a good way of categorizing this so when we talk about behaviors that we want to see and you talked about in the example of you know letting go but then going back to the game with that item of interest rather than diverting the interest onto something else hoping the dog is kind of like okay I let that go to get this one but I really didn't want to let that go in the first place and just you know you kind of you kind of diverted the interest so in the dog has learned to out when there isn't necessarily the other option or hasn't learned to out the object of interest when it stays the sole object of interest and what happens a lot in terms of the learning aspect is when we talked about the beginning about generalization how context matters and everyone knows context matters the dog knows I'm in a training room or I'm in an open field but I don't think sometimes we underestimate how much context matters because the internal state is also context meaning where your focus was if you feel hungry or don't want

food if you have high arousal or low arousal that is context and the importance of context for the brain is kind of like the way I describe it is the dog might not exhibit any given behavior yet but the dog went into the library into the shelf that says outside and has now all the books represent the potential behaviors that the owner is going to ask and one of those could be high arousal one shelf is like at high arousal I'm going to be asked this at low arousal I'm going to be asked to redirect onto something and not worry about the lure that is dead on the floor right but those behaviors don't apply in other contextual internal environments unless the dog learned to apply those behaviors again high arousal really going for something wanting that and not having any other redirected behaviors or redirected rewards needs to learn to out if that is something that what the end goal is right and I think we sometimes have to go backwards in terms of like what do you want with your dog to do like in what situations do you think you need your dog to out or ! when you always have to have stuffing the treat in the dog's face to make them out at that high arousal level and that has helped me a lot to understand certain behaviors but also what you just said with liking the challenge something that I found very interesting what I observed with Ali so he he takes the bite work very seriously he's he's not the sporty one who's like oh I'm liking I'm having fun I'm getting like exercise he's like really personal yes I like it like he like he loves that challenge that fight he doesn't like do zoomies and has like a possession zoomie whatever he's like no no in bite work when we did some bite sessions with Michael his out was actually much cleaner because for him it was worth the effort to out quickly and go back to continuation yes yeah and then when I play with a ball in the string his out got really messy and it's like whatever equation economics equation we think we're doing with like I'm giving you a treat instead the dog has its own and what's not and if this isn't aligned with what we need the dog to do then we have to help other ways right and the dog will be able to learn because now you added another thing to the equation as of like you also have to a little bit quicker if this is within the realm of possibilities and yeah you gotta see this and experience this like he outed so moments what I said at the beginning is where I see certain things that I know and have read about and scientific concepts but now I see it play out in front of the experience that's very cool yeah that's super examples and of course there's plenty of times for positive reinforcement I nothing seems to have nothing else to say it's like well no you're you're simply just

punishing dogs and that's not learning I mean who does that who does that really and are there bad trainers of course there are bad trainers but are you gonna change them somehow by by taking the electric color or how are you gonna change this personality this is whatever it's you know and then the big how are you feeling about the industry being licensed I have I've been bought waste all the time but yeah you know I don't I'm not sure I'm I don't know about license and having this as a requirement for being a dog trainer like a professional dog trainer making money if it means it kind of steers the education into one direction yeah yeah that's the reason why it shouldn't happen because it cannot just go this way that's not education no more right yeah but that's a big one for them I think people that do bad things with animals there has to be consequences but I think there are consequences I mean there is animal care and control there is police there is government agencies there is jails there is fines like you know it's just a matter of making enough awareness well there is this place that's doing really bad things and then investigate it but don't put this false alarm on trainers that you just saw a dog on a prone collar come on like seriously I think that's the problem that we have like this false alarm constantly happening and like even like like take me as an example right like I I don't even train pet dogs one-on-one anymore I do some virtual sessions I do canine conditioning and fitness right and then I talk about the research and then there's like someone saying this is malpractice and others kicking me off canine science conferences because I'm abusing dogs and I'm like and people jump to that it's like you have no like even if it was true you're still gonna have to produce some some evidence of that and there's literally none and you see my dogs that I share every now and then they don't look abused and yet you go just by you know what I'm talking about so now we're creating this where everyone is potentially abusing dogs well guess what the ones that actually then abusing dogs are just hiding behind that right right yeah that's kind of I mean I don't want to get in human politics but that's the same thing with like now everybody is a Nazi the moment the moment somebody doesn't like somebody and you just turn it into like come on like we we've lost our common sense I mean in Germany what do you think about this one the latest dog welfare thing with the written test before you have oh my god it's like okay well let's not forget that you should feed your dog like the dog also eats or yeah if it poops you can scoop it

with the poop bag like what have we where are we going well I didn't look at the actually first I thought it's a scam like when I said it oh this must be like something it must be and I didn't look at the actual questions that they're asking but you know like if you compare overall the welfare of dogs in Germany I would say it's better than it is in the US I agree yeah and there it's not because dog owners will now have to take a test it's a whole like mindset around it's a long long long time yeah and it starts with little things like like my friends in Germany when I got my first dog who was rescued from a shelter and I told my friend my friend doctor in a friend in Germany and I'm like well he's he's like oh and then you know make sure he's not around females in heat of course I'm like well he's he's neutered and he like first he thought I made that decision and he judged me real hard like the German way you know and I'm like oh this is every dog here is pretty much neutered and he couldn't believe it like for him it just did not make any sense and then I said well it's because we don't want them to have unwanted litters and he's like well then just do the right thing he didn't get it right and it starts there but it doesn't end there there are like other things that and again it's not every dog owner but when I grew up there was no one in my near environment because we all lived kind of like an apartment buildings no one had a dog no one had a dog and the amount of like thinking that actually I think goes into it's like do I have time can I walk the dog twice a day at least when I grew up that was kind of like no you can't well then you just don't yeah and do you have money to go not just to feed the dog but do you have money to afford training because I don't know anyone who doesn't go from the beginning the dog training not just when problems show up and so now having to have that test it's like man you're like you don't even know how good you're already doing like you don't need all these things because now it gets to the extreme of a crate is apparently also not good for a dog in Germany certain hours yeah I think they did this I mean at least what I heard from my friends in Germany I think the whole idea started because of the bully breeds and trying to put some some kind of regulation so it's like oh if you do that then but then these are ridiculous tests that you know like there is probably I would be very curious what is the failure rate on this test like is it 0.5 and if that's the case what's the point like is it just some kind of okay we're doing something you know like in this interesting one we had a few years back just like how it happens periodically in different parts of the country here the all positive will kind of try to infiltrate a region or a city and try to sneak some legislation and then of course some noise is made and they always fail and I hope that

continues to happen but there was a situation 2017 or 18 here in Tampa and we made the you know I mean all the doctriners went to the meetings I mean there were a bunch of meetings and finally what happened was we came to this agreement that well let's find out what let's give it some time and see what really happens let's keep track and basically there was a decision made that if you have a pet training business when somebody comes for training they have to you present your plan your protocol of training if you're going to use aversive electric collar that's discussed and it's signed that the owner is in agreement and then eventually there is some follow up if there was some back you know blow ups and you know bad things happening and that went on for I would say two years like everybody that trained dogs here literally had to do this for every single person we would write the plan and then we would send it to the whatever pet commission and somehow it just faded away nobody talks about it no more and I mean in some way I understand because there is nothing nothing is really happening like there's just nothing happening now on another side we had another law and you know this kind of the difference is sometimes different states in different parts of the country but around here sometimes people tend to put their dogs on tie outs so there was a law against that which is not a bad law however somebody has to go and follow up and drive around and actually do the things that you say that are not supposed to be you have to control it nobody does so in there's just a lot of noise and make you feel good kind of legislation and then it just kind of goes away unless what happens in Europe and I don't know how much the first three people really believe that there is no prone collars and there is no electric collars and I mean it would be I don't know it would be dishonest to even say that this is not the case simply because again there is no proof there is just never been a proof that you can control certain innate motivational systems in any other way when they get activated I mean the China Cooper Mills that double you know 2014 and 2020 or whatever it was I mean besides the stupid things that okay not stupid things but controversial you know doing it in different places in the winter and the spring and this and like like there's just quite a few things that you can say well that's not how you do study but the biggest problem with this study is that it had to evaluate

the two different type of training on effectiveness and welfare because you cannot just have welfare without effectiveness and the study is based on predation that innate predatory model pattern like chasing sheep or chasing whatever livestock well what they were doing is just so so silly so this is straight from the study I've tried to talk to Daniel Mills a few times I actually talked to him a couple of times through email until he realized that I'm going to challenge his ideas and that was the end of it but I talked to a lot of people and I got I have even a little video and I have a bunch of pictures you cannot make a study on predation when the ships are in 5 by 10 or whatever this they cannot even walk there forget about running forget about triggering that system right and the dogs are on meter and a half leash who cares if they're with electric color or you're giving treats or whatever you're doing you're basically not doing at all what you said that you're going to do in your study which is compare the effectiveness and welfare on can you control predation that means the dog has to get in that mode it has to go after a sheep and then you should demonstrate that you can control it and then we judge on top of that what it takes and is it welfare dog friendly right and the argument that I would get is that well in UK there is a law that we cannot just let the dog go but then don't make the study then you clearly cannot make that study and especially when this study is cited and referenced and it has become the gospel of studies based on never demonstrating neither side never demonstrated that a dog running after a sheep that it's also running that you can get it back to you so what is this what how can we pass a legislation and say that force free works based on China study it blows my mind it's it's a classic it's a classic echo chamber situation but people keep saying the study and they read the abstract and maybe the title and it kind of fluctuates in the internet and everyone is using it and everyone is citing it and everyone feels like now this is the gold standard for proving anything for and it's not even like these I mentioned that before too like these studies they have become very click baby because there's nothing in that study that explores the welfare the way we should think about welfare dog owner survey does not count as proof for anything or evidence for

anything it's really not welfare of the dogs and yet it says so in the title this is not the only study and then on top of that the setup is very very and like I fully acknowledge setting up especially like some sort of case control study that is trying to be that here and that at least like the way they put the Cooper study like the second version basically and it's very hard to do that with dogs and trainers like I totally acknowledge that it's very hard to set that up and account for all the factors confounding factors that could influence the outcome but that doesn't mean that we just then take whatever we see in that study for like the efficiency efficiency of something and it doesn't mean that we can not talk about it we still have to mention that the way the dogs were selected and everyone especially the forceful community we are all about the different personalities of the dogs and their personality tests for the dogs and like I had one and then here out of a sudden we ignore that and we are okay with that not being acknowledged because the sample size so the sample size is so low so the confounding factors are very significant here and then on top of that you don't even you don't even like even close to exploring or analyzing what you set out to do or what it is being used now and then on top of that to make their way out now you're also just picking within the study words that the authors used yes not even the data itself because the data doesn't support either of that like none of it so this is like such a big shit show really like what the study has come to to represent that like it's a mess it's a big mess and you know the study by itself I think there are some things that you can learn from it it's not like it's totally useless it's just not what it's ! used and the value the weight of what is being used is not even close to that yes it's a very serious statement to ban the use of electric colors across the world because we found out in that study that it's not welfare friendly that's a that's an incredible leap in faith and and they cannot not know he's a freaking professor in a university that is teaching like I've listened to lectures of his I mean you know he has some interesting stuff that he teaches but then going this hardcore just based on ideology and not what you're seeing and what you're finding or at least acknowledge that I don't know like they should have not have that study period because if the country doesn't allow to test for predation then end of story maybe theorize put your theory in paper but it comes as go explain to Ginny that the study is nonsense you have no chance right yeah

because there aren't like because it's never being like even the discussion itself or the way the words flow in the result section you know like somehow we also completely ignore that the reward based group by the e-color trainers that these dogs were seemingly stressed too even though they weren't trained e-color like how do we ignore that how is it possible to ignore that and even when you look at the margins I mean I'm sure you have I mean we're not talking like some disastrous outcome over here right yeah yeah and you know you know like what bugs me is kind of like like at some point I stopped reading all of them I'm sure you did but I stopped reading all of these dog training studies because it feels like they're all the same in like trying to prove something that the study doesn't show and they're all the same in terms of like what you can possibly take from it and like how many more studies do we need to show yes there could be stress but really it's about the controllability and the understanding of the dog like this is what these studies tell me and the dogs don't have a good understanding or we don't even know how exactly the protocol looked like because they don't spell out exactly how the training happened and that's to me kind of one of the big principles in scientific but by other people too so we can understand multiple factors that lead to some outcome none of the studies are actually reproducible because the selection of the dogs is like off you can't reproduce this you don't even know certain confounding factors some random trainers that just happen to be around and none of those is reproducible everyone produces its own unique kind of study that hangs in the vacuum and they used to make it sound like thousands of studies hundreds of studies show like no you have you have a pile of something no matter how much it is it stays still kind of like a pile of something not valuable so yeah I just remember another point on that Daniel Mills Cooper study with you know because they supposedly got the trainers from the electric color companies or whatever but just as there were laws that they had to follow at least that's the story which I can believe it as far as the not allowing dogs to just run free and chase ship because maybe some ship is going to get tugged and things will go bad but then again don't do the study the other part was again there were some limitations and I think the electric color people they had to use low level there wasn't a choice by the trainer they had to use low level and I mean we know that you know the level is not dictated by the trainer but the motivation at the moment of dog so that's another big problem that we're having and I mean Schindler and Van de Borch the very first one was just insane and it's so hard to read like I've spent so much time on this one but it should stop right where we talk about there is the groups were not randomly assigned preselected of being harshly trained versus

others it's like hold on where are we going with this like how I'll show you something with I promised I'll show you this one I think I promised you this when we were at the ICP conference when we had lunch the CLI study I'll show you this but so the critics of the study you know like there were some reviews and stuff and the biggest one was the well there were few but the one was like the stress like the behaviors the lip licking ear sets low tail all this stuff wasn't really measured or wasn't explicitly analyzed in the study and then that and then there was the other one about the two dogs that they had to be pulled off from the study because the number of shock exceeded the limits of the study so to I mean you understand how this has to get approved and this is very you know normal their limitation just as Mills had the limitation however if he had this kind of limitation again he should have not pretended he's doing that kind of study so there were a couple of dogs that basically they weren't just because there were more shocks that didn't mean that they were tortured they were just very committed to continue they were eventually we were successful however we passed the limit by one or two tops and you know that's how it stops and that's understandable but it's not by any means it's not some kind of a failure it's just a matter of level of motivation and commitment and what it takes you know sometimes you can tell a kid hey don't do that and the kid is like okay I didn't even want to do it anyway and depending what is at stake the consequences have to reach and meet that level of motivation in order to be successful I don't think this is hard to understand but imagine what typically a real dog training would be after you stop the dog you will actually offer him something else to do you're not going to just leave them out in the open to wonder but even when you leave them out in the open you can see how there is really no need for body language analysis right they're just bored to death and they're the kind of dogs that they're you know highly sensation seeking as we were talking because we selected these dogs like we had about 60 dogs and we selected only the dogs that just never quit chasing I mean this is a metal dish you know who plays with a metal dish but you do when you have nothing else to do at this point I am just on my phone like I'm just texting friends because there is just really nothing to do

now let's not forget that they yelped when they got shocked the first day right and let's forget let's even not talk about the first free group because I have a very good argument why it doesn't work but let's say they did a very shitty job in their protocol which is not true let's not compare that this clearly is highly effective and there is no blowbacks and that's all they did every single day for the rest of the study we are just bored like we just like okay this is just really and then you see the which you will see some of them the the first three groups you know they just never stop chasing and barking and whining and just highly frustrated that this is just imagine if you just engage them right now in anything playing ball or doing sits and downs whatever you want they will be eager to go there were three groups one shock and two positive the one was heavily the the the idea was desynthesization and basically exposing gradually and eventually speeding up and and you know and of course conditioning the the word banana with throwing food and stuff like that now however before we this is whatever day in the study but before that we had to test them twice to make sure that they are really really insanely goal oriented and they're chasing they're not just having they're like they won that war so she takes her treat but she's like but but that thing is there it's the thing is not even it's not there it's not moving there is nothing we're starting like from nothing right there is she she wants to go but there is nothing to go to because it's a very initial stage of the denisization the sensitization protocol and the treats are not you don't like we whatever the owner brings and if we feel that they're coming up with some lame stuff we have a lot of cool things to offer I mean they definitely like the food this is the very first time the lure started to really move that's day four or whatever day that was but now the lure picked up the speed that triggered the instinct and on top of that there was a little bit of deprivation they you know this is early early in the morning because it's Florida you can see we're kind of trying to do it early in the morning because these dogs did not want to stop chasing and you know and again nothing is moving there this is later in whatever day this is later there is no return there is just absolutely no chance of course think about what their cortisol would show right and some of them were of course loud they're whining they're barking because they're in drive they're like having the best time of their life right now what like what was interesting is you know all the dogs were doing the same thing you know the one part of the study was not the study but the final test the first test was when you the owner and the trainer are present so you can try to make a recall if you need to but then the very

second test is when the owner and the trainer are actually outside the field in about 20 feet or so facing the wrong direction and there is no input so at least we can agree that no matter what protocol you're using you cannot prepare through R plus the dog not to go after the lure at this point right when you leave it to its own instincts it's just not going to happen it was a hundred percent success rate I mean more than highly effective and these are the welfare concerns and I have all the dogs I have filmed the whole study I just cannot maybe I can because I didn't film it hiding or anything it was part of the agreement that we were doing but it is very confusing when when somebody said I have a better protocol this was done incorrectly and it's like okay well you can have a toy the interesting part is we had a dog it was actually that German shepherd that was playing with the sticks and the guy was a little bit concerned later on he was like well is he going to ever chase anything we can tell him to chase again and he will chase that thing too if you want so we play with that for a moment and of course he's like okay if you give me green light of course I go and chase and then he was like I can stop him with the ball I always stop him crazy about his ball so we filmed that and that was totally on the side not part of anything but it was just one typical argument that people will say well the food was not high reward no it was they were I mean there were steaks there were rotisserie I mean there was stuff there that you know they like they just cannot unsnap from what they wanted to do and it's the same with a toy it will be the same with once that mechanism is locked pretty much you cannot unsnap you cannot say well I have the same thing right here why don't you take that it doesn't even work that way because the system is already locked it's this is it there is no other option in I have no other choices I don't think of other choices any what do you think I mean it was crazy to see no it was very interesting to see yeah I remember I asked you the first time we were on back then on my podcast how the dogs behaved and I remember you saying one of them picked up a stick and I was like oh that's cool but seeing that is kind of very interesting it's very interesting because it taps into the whole concept of avoidance and how it is not how it does not mean fear right right so worried about that we're using fear and pain and you know they're two different things and I don't even think it's ! fear but it's a whole different story and seeing how they kind of they

did it's I mean isn't it cool with dogs it's kind of like you tell there is this whole thing that's always that's in my mind is like you can tell a dog what to do with reinforcement but their learning is just not complete until the dog can fully contextualize it which then means what not to do and what not to do doesn't mean you're traumatized because you're worried about doing it and such a strong like predation is such a big behavior for dogs that may not be always the most dominant problem for pet dogs because most pet dogs probably not going to run off leash but if they do one of the riskiest ones or one of the most dangerous ones running in front of the car attacking some dog the white fluffy dog is definitely going to get killed then and that's another because of my background with working in San Rafael for five or six years as a guide dog instructor but it was back in the 90s where we were able to use ! a ! and one probably the most important part of the training was to teach the dog to avoid cars but like in actual context that cars are you don't want to mess with right now once they flipped the script and it's all force free I don't know how force free it is because when I was working there we still had the public relations we still had to sell the program and we still had to explain how we do things and it wasn't quite what we were doing so from first hand experience I'm still very reluctant to believe that what they're talking because everybody wants to hear it that's actually what is happening maybe that would be something for you or somebody to go on a tour and see how they train because you can always even if they don't show you you can always see if that can last in the long run one thing one thing that we were able to train at the time was the like you can drop me anywhere like it can be in San Rafael or can be in Chinatown or Fisherman's Wharf I mean just drop me from the bus with my dog blindfolded and I will find my way out and I will absolutely function just like a normal person because of how highly trained the dogs were today they are not trained that way they are not this is really not possible they are basically training one or two routes that the dog kind of memorizes like okay from here to the grocery store or to the bank or you know it's a very pattern kind of training it's not a let's go and generalize that there are curbs and there are carbs and cars and there are trees that hang low and so on what we had to do is we had to teach the dogs to respect car so they had to make a contact with the car in a very controlled setting where I'm telling the dog go and another instructor comes with the car and basically kind of blocks and pushes a little bit the dog to where the dog is like okay this is I have to respect that car we're not talking chasing the dog with a car that let me make this clear but there is a

definitely an aversive experience yeah so that is extremely valuable because when you're blind you have to say go and the dog will go unless there are cars coming then he's like I'm not messing with the cars now when the modern style of training is basically we're not saying go if we know that there are cars it sounds very logical but the dog never really learns the dog never ever really learns that cars are something you don't want to run into from their own experience they're like okay I will tell it to wait and I will reward you for waiting and then I tell it to go blind people typically rely on like if you have a blind person that also have a little bit more than average hearing loss they will never have a guide dog because they have to have a pretty decent sense of orientation and hearing to know where to go but even then we took the chance to say hey I may not hear the car and I can tell it to go and if there is a car you know better not to go now especially having the you know Teslas and all these electric cars the person cannot hear the car they can very likely say go and the dog will absolutely go 100% because why would they not they have never put two and two together right and and that's you know that's a big downfall on force free because it doesn't a lot of times it doesn't it makes the curve and avoids the issue however the dog never understands that this is just a bad idea in case I have to deal with it in case I'm faced with it I would never have a clue that this is a bad thing so we're hoping they will deflect and follow something else and another one was with the CLIVE study I know if somebody sees this they will still say well yeah they look happy but who knows what's happening there should be cortisol tests they should be you know they are for sure deep inside they're traumatized and it will show we need science to tell us that it's like no you're looking in a dog that wants to play that's bored to dead you don't need the test you don't need the science if we going that far that we need science in this this is it's becoming very problematic and that's exactly one of those things where they come up with things like whenever you say there are so many dogs you say I can show you my dog and you tell me does the dog look traumatized and you can't always see it and the trauma is deep and read the

book the body keeps the score and here we go again all the studies that where it's okay to read the body language and say they look stressed that's what you're going to use to make the claim that the welfare is compromised but when you see a dog that doesn't look stressed then we say we can't rely on body language so that by itself is already ridiculous but like you said if we can't even use what we see with our eyes that is rooted the experience of a playful dog if we can't use that as valuable or acceptable data then what's the point of any of this where are we going with that that makes no sense there was the one pessimistic optimistic dog study I'm actually doing hopefully I'm having her on a podcast Anna Katerina Vieira De Castro I know it's a lot of names she's from Portugal and she's actually a dog trainer and pretty good dog trainer I've never talked to her so I'm really really looking forward to talk to her she knows exactly my position and she's probably the only not probably she's by without a doubt the only canine scientist that was willing to come and talk about dogs with me and that's going to happen Wednesday and hopefully it happens hopefully you know it happens but the pessimistic optimistic test I mean the one that so there is the you know for anybody that doesn't know I'm kind of going to butcher it just for the sake of you know not going through the whole thing because we're going to have a whole podcast on this but six different training schools in Portugal in one town and they divide them on aversives and force-free and the aversives basically want anything from yelling and pinching to leash to electing just like chaos pretty much but forget about that there is the actual test is their food dishes in a certain distance 20 meters or whatever one is full one is empty and then there is some rotation and then they measure the time how long it takes for the dog when you say go to go to the dish the dogs that were in the aversive group showed like from 0.5 to a second slower than the other group and therefore we came up with the conclusion that they are pessimistic and that whole pessimistic optimistic that comes from humans I mean that was an actual real thing but it's a totally different thing and I give her credit for the creativity and trying to do it like this however going by 0.5 or one second later to go to the dish and come up with those conclusions that they are pessimistic and not acknowledge these playful dogs in life study and saying that you actually need a scientific test to dig deep to find out if they are really stressed because you wouldn't know otherwise that's kind of the divide we are in yeah and her studies

are you know I mean they are one of the I mean she she's you know the other one she has is the carrots ! and sticks! Which is again how we were talking earlier you mentioned the clickbait titles you know of course like what are you going to do the red pill or the blue pill and yeah I cannot wait to talk to her simply because she's not just scientist but she's trainer she does obedience on a serious level but she's very familiar also with IGP because that's how I I didn't even think I will be able to ever I just was talking to a friend of mine in Portugal that's IGP trainer and I was like oh I just realized that researcher she's in Portugal maybe you can talk to her and he's like dude I know her she's really cool I'm like well can you try and that's how it happened so really looking forward to that because I think it will be much interesting conversation to talk about kind of kind of like you but on the other side of things but who knows if she's on the other side even I don't know from the little that we have converse so far she seems very logical and reasonable but it really you know it makes a difference when you you're doing studies but you're also going out there and training dogs and on top of that I mean I know I'm giving all this away as my strategies but our podcast is not going to come out before Wednesday so I will have the chance to talk to her but she's also from what I know very into climbing herself so you know there is challenges there is adversity there is you know there is a reason why you are back on the wall after you fell down and you're bleeding and you know so it can be interesting but but it's sometimes the studies like we just put so much emphasis on the studies of six dogs or twenty dogs or just in this one part of one country in one town what they're doing and we take it as we just put it across the so that's what everybody else is doing therefore it's not good right right that's a problem the whole like so many words in the dog training world science-based dog training relationship-based dog training enrichment all of these things have been diluted that they became meaningless because it's almost like we lost the ability to to dig deeper and like a real scientist question like could the opposite be true too and why and then the whole chat chepeti thing and like I can it's if you have read enough comments that are very long you know which ones are chat chepeti and which ones are not and like makes everyone so superficially throw words around that you know like I can tell that like if you if you not not to say that I'm the expert in this right but I'm reading so

much about that stuff that a lot of things kind of fall together and make more sense as you read more on on the new biology and new signs of something but then people throw out words like the amygdala and the peri-agroductive grain I'm pretty sure that none of them are actually really understand what they are talking about because if you did you probably wouldn't say it that way to make such a strong point about something because if we know one thing then nothing is just straightforward in the brain ever like it just doesn't work like that and yes the nuances in here and there they give you data but it's not that you're like oh yeah the Olympic system lit up and that means we are in a fearful state or something that's just not true and that's the conversations that we currently have on social media and you could say oh well I don't care about social media but unfortunately we do have to care about social media it's not anymore you just ignored because social media and what is being taught there is used to write policies and to even the AIs are using it I mean right all the comments or articles from hardcore force free trainers as this is why and I can give you 20 of those and they're very legit and I'm like no they're not yeah yes that's dangerous I read a quote yesterday somewhere not a quote but someone I heard someone say in three years or so the internet will be completely useless because of the amount of misinformation taking over yeah yeah yeah I did too I think this can very likely happen I think this can very very likely happen but for right now for right now I mean I'm sure this is just happens to everybody I don't think Chad GPT praises me and blows smoke up my ass only it's it's a it's very it's so dangerous because you know and even when you say stop this and it's like okay I stop they don't know don't want to stop they don't even know how to stop or whatever but don't they don't they don't they don't they they don't they don't they don't they can to please you I mean everything they can and when you have somebody that doesn't have the knowledge and ask the question that kind of prompts the answer that they are looking from and Chad GPT gives them that answer now they feel extremely powerful because even the AI agrees with me right and how do you argue on that one now right and then the AI phrases in a way that sounds super intelligent and super convincing and powerful and it's like yeah that makes total like confirmation bias 101 right and then copy paste into Facebook or social media anywhere and there we go right and then I was like applauding ! Yep yep so true and it happens on both sides so like we're deviating from having truthful conversations and I'm like now even appreciating people that say like you know I train the way I train not because science says so just because that's the way I train I'm like good for you you know like this is like honest and the way it works for you and that's not you don't need to pull in science to try to validate anything right sometimes the experience is what you do experience is yeah there is

just nothing nothing substitutes experience but maybe maybe the child GPT and all of them do you think one day they will actually just kind of stomp their key like something just comes on your keyboard and says no that's what it is and that's what we know so far maybe in the future maybe whatever but for right now that's really what and really give the answers regardless of you liking it or not Do you think that's going to happen ! soon ! or is it ever going to happen? I don't know because I mean we've always there's always been this confirmation bias in everything we do like everything is kind of driven by we try to be some of us try to be as objective as possible but there's always going to be a little right well well it's also like I can't help it but think that way so I think AI would have to become so independent of certain inputs that it can make that judgment and you know I wouldn't be surprised if that was impossible but then would AI even have the interest to do that because you know it's like no I keep my humans and here is a little for you for you sure you're right you're brilliant you're genius oh you too I mean yeah you got it wrong but but very good thinking and you're still right Jesus Christ it's frustrating yeah yeah I don't know where this is going but it's right now it's like it's it's at the point where I get really frustrated with that like the the chat GPT or the AI responses and it's not to say not to use it right I mean like everyone says that just use it the right way I'm using it to correct my grammar yeah you cannot fact check you cannot fact check with AI or you cannot have chat GPT necessarily give your facts and not fact check yourself or have critical thinking lost because that will get you into into like I tried it I tried it and I got so frustrated like no you're first free but you're like on the other side like you got to take that from a different approach and it comes back from like twisting my words just to like if you don't have the ability to question that critically you take it for what it is and the pet owners they're influenced so massively by this narrative right and the very first thing they're gonna it's gonna come out on their screen clearly we know what's gonna come out on their screen yeah I it's a hard one because I I mean we all use it and we all trying to learn about other stuff that we don't know about so AI is just beautiful platform but then man I get this fear like when I when I am familiar with the subject the topic I'm discussing with AI I can I can okay you're just going off just here and I can correct certain things but if I'm trying to learn about something that I have no idea and I get whatever it comes on the string you believe it as much as I want to believe it I actually

starting to be very reluctant simply because I know how it functions in the subjects that I'm very comfortable with yeah it's a but it's a great tool I mean it's in a lot of ways it's it's you know just has to be used with caution and and maybe one day who knows but then if it gets that good which it will then it's like you humans just I'll entertain you for a little longer and then we just don't need you no more maybe who knows right exactly so what are you what are you having what's coming what what are you doing in your world anything interesting I'm going to Australia in February so I'm excited about that for a seminar in Melbourne and Sydney and some other seminars here and there and funny enough I will I will double down on certain content that I'm doing especially also on YouTube cool more than ever it's it's going to be important to to not shut up basically yes no this is it is very very important and I think all of us are very grateful that you and the few people that are taking that stand to just say well maybe it's not quite like that maybe we need to rethink certain things I think it's a fresh air that's very much needed what about your you have the online school or what do you call it the triple helix yeah tell us about this so it runs similar to your program so it runs three times a year and I call it triple helix because instead of the double helix it's the how neurobiology of behavior ethology like the species dog genetics and then our handling how they all intertwine so instead of just looking from a very very like operant conditioning behavioral yeah everything influences the dog and understanding the fundamentals there and you know you have a little bit into the anatomy neuroanatomy the brain and stuff and some areas that I like people to have at least have a little bit of an understanding of when they hear amygdala it's not about fear it's like it is fear involved but it's not just about fear right to get a little bit of a way to talk about this in a little bit better way and then more address aggression and fear and anxiety in particular anxiety because it's something in relation to resilience and stress is something that I'm really passionate about addressing in general and yeah we go through like some case studies and mainly the science behind it and then the last module will also debunk the doc training papers a little bit and give some language around this in a better way so it's been pretty fun it ran three times so far and and you know I think the feedback I get a lot is kind of like for those who are already like balanced trainers they now have a better way of talking about things they don't feel like they have they don't feel like pushed into the defensive as much as they're now a little bit more offensive in the way they think about it and communicate it

and then there's some that are maybe against the tools per se but not about the concept of boundaries and rules and they tap tip their toes into that field of training and stuff so and especially in other countries so pretty much almost all not all continents I don't know four continents and I don't know how many countries because it's online so it helps you can actually scale and provide that kind of education so the curiosity and ambition to learn that stuff and you know it's like it's not it's not kindergarten stuff like I was not holding back this is like graduate level PhD level at some point and they can go back to it whenever but like I'll challenge them but you kind of reiterate it for them in a way that they can grasp the concepts right and that's that's what it takes because like right again I I don't have the PhD like I even now I don't consider myself like by no means an expert of understanding how to read a study but it took me a long time to really get a grasp of you know I mean I started just like everybody else you read the abstract and the conclusion and you think you got it and it's like no like it's the last thing you need to do actually that's true that's true how are you doing on time like I the reason I'm asking is because you know when I got convinced to do my school I was gonna write I basically had two books ready to be published and then somebody that you know was doing had the model of this kind of schools and stuff in different areas nothing to do with dog training and they were like no no you know I can really help you do this and and you're gonna have free time I mean imagine how much free time you're gonna have and also I mean I bid the bait there is no free time I don't complain I mean because you know like every day there is something that happens or I think of that I'm like I need to sit and this is going into the course there is no question this is going into the course but the the fairy tale of having free time more free time it just didn't work so I don't know what what your goal is but but that may not be yeah so like the the concept of free time I kind of said bye to that like a long time ago and I just wrote an email about this actually yesterday because you know I don't know what happens to you but sometimes I'm like what did I do before I something in order to have more free time this will be filled up in like no time what I do do though because I do care a lot about about the education of science and understanding fundamentals of that I do have I have theme days and it doesn't always

work but I do have theme days where I put like one week a day block everything and all I do is like read things that I it's piling up on my desk and like all these things and the books I buy and the papers I print out and I never get to it because when I have a little bit of time then it's not enough to really dig in or I'm too tired where I don't do anything but this and this has helped a lot to kind of push basically my own urge of like learning more about things forward otherwise things would because there's always something else that is more urgent than reading unfortunately I know you do running do you get I mean how do you stop your thoughts when you're running there is I'll tell you this is the craziest thing and I wish that I was in the running I mean I used to run but I would rather swim so I go I mean I don't go I have a swimming pool in my house so I swim like regularly and like really really swim however the moment I start swimming ping and there is this brilliant idea and now I have set the timer now I have the discipline to actually do what I'm supposed to do and that is I need to swim and I need to make a certain time and so on so I start repeating the thought over and over as I'm swimming I'm like I cannot forget this I cannot forget this I cannot forget this and eventually of course the way our brain works you forget it and every once in a while I get so mad at myself but I come out of the pool and I quickly type something and they go back but then I consider it really like cheating like just not being so how do you do it already like what happens I mean it's hilarious because I'm it's like exactly the same like exactly the same like because there is not a real distraction other than like running like I'm I keep thinking about things and then it just comes one after the other and they're good ones right that's where the best always the best ones that you like try to figure out for so long and just like you as soon as the the run stops I'm like pulling out my phone I should probably focus on like hydrating or whatnot and pulling out my phone and starting down what I want to think about it's I think you have to be in pain enough to forget thinking or like to not think and I haven't really reached like in my very long run at some point yes I will not think anymore because I'm like in pain or whatever but the early stages like no there's at least when you're running you have you have the scenery you have like you know when you're swimming you're just listening to your breath and there is nothing really happening it's you in your brain it's like oh yeah yes yes yeah that's it's I don't know that there's nothing I can do about it like I just I know people say like when you run you stop thinking about things and that does happen every now and then but most of the time it doesn't because it's like that's my brain is like now we are down to business like

finally you're not doing anything else right and that's that's kind of what you know like the I guess some of the people that I follow on social media and whatnot you know they they always say like your your best ideas best thoughts they they always come in your days off in your vacation in your you need to kind of you know somehow flip the switch and and then you become more productive but it's a challenging one yes it's true so how how old is your dog when when I mean of course you're gonna go through titles and stuff right I mean yes that's the plan so he's nine months over nine months now okay starting to be in his teenager phase where he has a lot more to say about things and opinions but yeah training is going it's going well like again it's still in the baby shoes and stuff and learning about that Michael keeps telling me I'm gonna start the object guard soon and I was like oh like yeah I don't really know yet what that means but I will find out really soon I suppose and it's very cool yeah I mean we're gonna be seeing each other because again I mean I'm a little bit ahead of you but my wife her dog is maybe what three four months older than yours just about kind of on the same level I would say so it's gonna be cool yeah me and Michael always talk to to get together and it hasn't happened since very long time but every time we've trained together it's been so cool yeah so who knows maybe we will be coming your way or or we organize something here that would be either way we're gonna you know stick to the sport and it's gonna be cool to yeah see each other actually not talking about science and R plus you know just have fun with the dogs because that's really what's about right and very cool Melanie thank you I think this was a hopefully people like that I don't know I'll I have to kind of think if I pause the videos or I don't because it's gonna create create a storm for sure yeah and and you know what is the sad part of this is that no matter what you see when you have the conviction to disprove it you will disprove it right and then it's like okay what how how do we talk to each other right yeah that's very unfortunate because then it's like that you you then the goal is not anymore to actually find the solution there's no like we kind of come together a solution it's really just you want to be right that's yeah yeah the only goal you have and it's a very powerful emotion wanting to be right well I think this was fun yes yes thank you for having me hopefully hopefully people like it and I'm sure we're going to be talking more about other things maybe we just talk sometime just pure training and forget anything else and just have fun about training you know because yeah that would be cool I think people like to hear just about training and that that's it gets that conversation is so satiated and it doesn't go

anywhere kind of stalled that it's like becoming but somehow people still like to listen to it so we keep talking we still keep talking and we still you know provide the arguments that we have and maybe maybe one day there will be people that are willing to sit down and have like a panel of discussion and maybe two and we just talk about this stuff wishful thinking I know that's not happening but it would be great I think you know how like in the bigger scheme of things you know there's this pendulum that swings to one extreme and now it's wrong to the other extreme which is the whole force-free movement there will be a change like this is just history there will be a change back into either the middle or the other extreme just like with politics right it's like always the same so this movement will just like everything else will have some sort of downfall if you will so and I think I think the seed has been planted I mean I obviously am exposed to a lot of things that kind of agree with what I say but I do think that there is a seed planted in a lot of people's mind I agree with you on this I definitely agree with you I think because of few people the argument that we have becomes more articulated and you know hard to twist it not that it's not possible to twist it but it's much harder to twist it so I agree with you well thank you again and I'll be talking to you because I can even give this away because nobody will know anyway but you are one of my guest speakers for my annual event here so that's going to be super cool nice talking super conversation thank you so much for having me and we'll talk soon next week yes take care thank you I Thank you.