E391 - 카렌 디즈(Karen Deeds): 가정의 평화를 만드는 조각들

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sit here we've got to go do something first so meeting the dog's needs first and foremost what are your dog's needs uh that will help them to be able to do the hanging out in the house which is normally what most people are after um and of course personalities i have to really uh watch my border collie because he would be a resource garter um and i can't put him with the malinois who is also a resource garter it's just not going to work and in all honesty could i work through that probably am i going to probably not uh management is my friend and i'm not afraid of that and i think that's a real big piece of that just managing the situation and not letting them practice is a huge part of changing the behavior you know i use this uh analogy of uh you're not going to uh create sobriety when the alcoholic is already drunk so you have to get the alcoholic out of the bar and a lot of that is about management and that goes with pretty much any behavior modification program as far as i'm concerned is don't let them practice the behavior that keeps that behavior alive you know practice makes perfect as bob bay would say or perfect practice makes perfect so uh it's it's it's a juggling event like i say we have six dogs and so there are rarely there's never any time when there's all six dogs out in the house never ever it just can't happen i have to i have to create and rotate um and greater part of it is i don't have a big enough house or living room for to accommodate you know four large breed dogs and two little dogs i just don't have that kind of living room space um if i want to have any kind of quality of life in my own living room so um but so but settling is certainly part of it like um um you know one of the things i have to have is my dogs need to understand the ones that need it uh go to your place and just chill and maybe here's your bone and this is where you chew your bone so that can be part of the settling process uh but a lot of it with the bigger dogs is i do need to have some verbal control you know so that i'm not just yelling and screaming stop it don't do that don't quit that never works uh because no never teaches so i do have to have a level of foundation on the dogs now greater my little dogs they have no training whatsoever none none zippo nada um i mean holly she's our little shih tzu that's bob's little dog um she goes to her little bed it wasn't trained it's just that she loves her little donut bed right that's all she does and that's where she she hangs out or and the little minpin he jumps up on the love seat and he curls up in his little uh little

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pillow and that's what he does and the big dogs those are the ones that i have to manage and i have to you know you come out you're being calm all right now you can do some interaction and if things start to get too elevated boys go to your place all right all right now get up you can do some more but again i have to make sure that those needs are satisfied before i even attempt that yeah so so you mentioned settling in there um let's talk about that just a little bit more so how are you defining the word settle here what does that look like or what does that skill kind of include well there's um and i think there's a gazillion different processes out there for teaching it i mean you know nicole has her own um fomo class which is incorporates a lot of that do this behavior and really truly first and foremost it's it's a differential reinforcement behavior it's a process it's an alternative or an incompatible behavior to the things that we don't want so that's probably first and foremost um but i also the way i teach it i'm hoping to create more of a physiological change um in by lowering the dog's blood pressure their cortisol levels their heart rate because it's not an actively trained behavior to start with it's you know i teach it with more um calm behavior it's not a go to it mark get off feed go to it mark get off feed i don't teach it that way um the other thing i like to consider it as it's kind of becomes a duration skill can your dog do a settle for five minutes because if they can't do that for five minutes they probably can't do a lot of other things for five minutes so um that's something i have seen the benefit of just teaching your dog a duration skill it means that their durations in other areas will improve and i also use it kind of as a conduit for impulse control in other words the dogs want to do all the things right you know but can they do this behavior instead of that behavior so it's it's that impulse control type thing as well that falls under the category of a differential reinforcement process but it still implies that the dog has to go oh i want that but i can't have that and this is what i do to get that perhaps so that's kind of what i what i call my settle and what can it consists of so can you give us kind of an overview of how you teach it um i start out really slowly and i take a very specific and i start with a mat i like mats that have little loops in it a rubber-backed bath mat is my friend i want something that kind of has loops in it so that if you drop food in it it kind of goes down inside the loops i don't like the memory

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phone because food just bounces off of it um i don't like pieces of carpet unless it's shied carpet um so i'm cheating a little bit by just um first thing i do is i put food on the mat and because i use this a lot for behavior modification and not so much as you know calm behavior around the house i mean that's kind of an offshoot of teaching settle is uh is to you know do this while i'm watching tv or on the computer or whatever that's one aspect but that's not normally the way i'm going to be presenting it um because i think there's enough people out there that teach that uh so what i'll be doing is working using it as a uh in conjunction with behavior mod so to speak uh but i start out with um you know the dog on a leash because a lot of this is leash reactivity this is one of the things i worked with my last immersion program she even looked at her leash and her dog started jumping and spinning and biting her and i'm going oh the leash has its own life and so we had to completely start with calm behavior without a leash because the leash was already too too overexciting so when i teach this i try to start with a dog on leash so that i can actually change the emotional response of the leash itself and if i can't like i could with this dog i had to teach the dog even to eat we she couldn't even put on her shoes if the dog saw her putting on her shoes that meant we were going somewhere and the dog started to spiral up so we actually had to start the process of seating the mat so i kind of held him away she put food on a mat uh we let him come in and we just kept dropping food until he would actually eat food on the mat it took him a a few few repetitions for him to understand that it's okay for me to eat food and we had to take the mat a long way away from the doorway because anything close to the doorway created that over arousal effect so we stair-stepped it but normally what i do is i seed the mat in other words i put food on the mat i go get the dog i bring it in the dog sees the food i sit down i keep dropping food it's almost the ignore me behavior that i'm trying to teach this is not a focused on you behavior this is a don't focus on me behavior so i want the dog to just keep their head down and eat eat eat eat eat i release them with an all done which is a connection if the dog is on leash i'm not going to use what i would call my free dog release which is we're done uh i want all done calm release come to me get a cookie so all done means okay i can get up off the mat but i don't get to run and play and do all those fun things so once i i

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create the uh the connection between oh my god there's my mat let me take mom to it because i know there's going to be food there then i start to generalize that i move the mat around the house so that it becomes about the mat and not about the position the mat was in like not in front of your favorite chair in the living room so i might take it to the bathroom or the bedroom or the living room and then eventually the porch or or wherever uh and once the dog is realizing it's about that spot and that has become a target right then i start to take the dog over and i lure them into uh hopefully a rolled hip uh position and i feed again on the mat very rarely does food come from my hand and i try not to drop food uh while the dog is looking at me i want them either looking away from me or maybe still sniffing on the mat once i get to that process uh now i have kind of two cues for the mat um which would be the mat itself and me luring the dog so there comes a hand signal uh but i also teach away from the mat work i will teach the concept of impulse control as well as i will teach a tactile cue of leash pressure so that the dog will i can use leash pressure uh that has been trained it's not a i'm going to jerk your neck down and make you lay down um and i have there's rules about when i would use that uh yeah my border collier absolutely dude uh you can't go play with your ball you have to lay down and he has been taught that follow the pressure of the leash and it's just another cue right so i have tactile cue i have a visual cue i have the target cue and then of course i can add a verbal cue settle hand signal tactile cue mat it's all there together eventually i can get rid of one or two or three of those cues my border collie settle he can do a settle anywhere rolled hip uh on a verbal doesn't have to have a leash doesn't have to have lure doesn't or the hand signal doesn't have to have the mat but that's where i start um and then i progress to okay now i have to build a little bit of duration and that's sometimes i will add in marker cues but up until now now i have not and again it depends on the dog whether i add a marker cue or not but if i do i use a scatter marker cue that is not scatter it's called dinner but it's multiple pieces of food on the mat and it means stay in position it's a lot like the room service cookie it's room service but you have to maintain the settled down roll hip roll position and that is what i can then use in conjunction with the engage disengage process when i'm doing behavior mock work so the dog maybe he's doing a settle and he

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looks at a distance and he sees the dog that i'm trying to counter condition but he's got a a lower arousal level because we've trained to settle so his blood pressure is down his cortisol is down his heart rate is down um and he's already got a positive association with that mat so i'm working with that instead of just taking the dog out into the raw and so now i have the dog that's going i love this place this is where all the good things happen and oh my there's a dog over there dinner and i feed the dog and he goes oh wow there's another dog and i got i got a dinner cue now granted i can't use dinner with a with a smish nose face dog tried doing this with a frenchie recently and he's like uh yeah i have to stand up to eat thanks so i had to feed him differently i just basically delivered food instead of on the mat from my hand at an angle so that he could maintain the down position so uh you do have to make some modifications but uh in a in a nutshell that's it that's the overview so uh you are doing a webinar on all of this on the 23rd um do you want to just share a little bit more about kind of what's going to go in the webinar and maybe who should consider joining us yeah i think anybody uh who has a dog that's a little over aroused would benefit um because of the physiological changes uh i also find dogs with anxiety um arousal and anxiety in my world come together a lot um but not necessarily uh but dogs with anxiety a lot of it is about i don't know what to do um and when we can teach a dog that has anxiety and give them structure and rules um it makes them go oh thank god not my job and that also falls into the harmony uh class as well um but uh you know i i say knowledge knowledge uh knowledge is power power creates confidence confidence reduces anxiety so if i have conditioned the subtle behavior uh with an anxious dog and they go oh my god i know exactly what to do here that takes a little bit of responsibility off of them and that helps to reduce anxiety and of course then there are border collies uh my impulsive border collie is like i want all the things all the time so i'm not using it to change behavior for fear at all it's the impulsivity that he has and so it applies that same structure and boundaries for a very different reason than the anxious dog it's kind of like oh i want this oh i can't have that until i'm allowed to have that and um you know i think for some dogs that are not that anxious fearful type of dog i think we'd probably call them pushy or assertive and i know those are labels and i know that's taboo um but that's the way my clients see

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their dogs right um and it's up to me to be able to help my clients the best uh and i listened to a webinar recently fdsa uh talking about how you know the scientists and i remember presenting up at orca uh at university of north texas was jesus was alas rias at their uh orca group and you know i'm just i'm not a college student and i don't have all these discriminative stimulus and ucs's and all that i don't know what that means anyway we were we were talking about this is pre-covid we were presenting about um multiple marker system to their orca group which is the organization for reinforcement contingency of animals that's what that stands for and that organization is who used to present the art and science of animal training conferences or some uh workshop seminars um for you through unt i miss them greatly um but anyway we were up there before covid hit and uh so bob and i and our little uh then apprentice meta were presenting this concept to this group of people which some of them were animal trainers but most of them worked with with kids and uh one little gal asked me a question and it was very technical and i went i think what you just asked me was and and i was right i kind of fumbled through it but what happened was jesus kind of went you know what he says here we are the scientists expecting you to learn our language and what we really should be doing is learning your language so and i was talking to somebody just the other day in fact i did a podcast with barbara buckmeyer i'm going to be in her uh summit uh which is coming up soon too and uh we were talking about that and she says you know what she says you need to speak to your students to your clients and stop trying to impress people and i went you know what that makes sense because i i really can't impress people anyway i just do what i do uh but anyway so um and i have no idea why i got on that that little kick but uh i think it was about uh the fact that i use labels when i i talk about my dogs that are assertive or pushy i have one that's my border collie for sure and then i have uh my my labrador who doesn't have any behavior problems really for the most part he's kind of a wuss which is great um but uh for my clients who do have dogs that have you know issues uh they're not pushy or assertive they might be fearful or insecure and so i think the process of settling can help both uh and of course just dogs that just don't know what else to do um maybe create a default behavior it's just an appropriate behavior for them to do so for me i use settle a lot um but i because i am

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primarily working with already existing behavior problems um you know it's it normally falls more into the behavior mod category versus just a do this behavior so anyway am i right in maybe guessing or assuming that settling is also kind of part of the skill set you look at um for multi-dog households to promote kind of household harmony there absolutely multi-dog households or households with multi-kids with one dog um you know the whole harmony in the household is not just about dog to dog stuff it might be dog to kid it might be dog to cat it might be dog to parrot oh my god i worked with one of those recently on the on uh online or uh virtually um that was fun not um uh because part of it is you know how many people train their birds or their cats not many i have been very fortunate that a couple of my students in my classes have got some amazing cat skills their their cats place they target i'm like oh my god that's impressive uh and of course we can all watch laura wadby and her cat and that's unbelievably amazing um but uh so the settle process is absolutely a part of that but again it goes a little bit deeper with the the behavior mod processes if we're already having conflict of course management is key identifying the trigger areas um and a lot of times uh they can settle in the room together just fine it's when one gets up that things go bad so i have to work through that process and uh so i apply maybe i use the name game where we do some um uh you know just some flat-out counter conditioning and we add in uh changes in the other dog and it looks a lot like what uh nicole teaches with her fomo class um but normally i'm dealing with bigger feelings so to speak instead of oh i want to go too it's i want to i want to kick your butt kind of sort of thing um so you know yes settling is a big part of it it's not the only part of it but um that creating predictability is a big part of harmony in the household as well as again the dogs that really need to know what to do um they benefit from that it's it's the authoritative type of parenting or dog raising versus the authoritarian or the permissive type um i mean we've proven it in children that authoritative which is basically giving them boundaries and then teaching them what we want them to do is the the most successful and so i kind of take that and apply that to the dog world as well what are some of the common problems that you know crop up when we are talking about multi-dog households um maybe not an all-out fight right but just things that prevent those feelings of

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peacefulness or relaxed harmony a lot of it is going to be geared around some sort of a resource um i think um and of course food disease is the easy one i mean you know our dogs never eat together and they've never eaten together uh they all go into their crates that i've got two dogs that the only time their inner crates is what they eat um and then i have one that doesn't he doesn't even have a crate anymore that's my labrador uh but the littles because they're littles they go in crates for safety and all the other dogs do too they eat dinner's done we pull up the bowls we give them another hour or so to digest and to chill and it's done i've never had a problem over food bowl guarding um because i don't ever allow that to happen but so that's one incident that i see a lot of people you know i oh my god my dogs are fighting over dinner i'm like okay well you know tell me what the setup is i'm like well you know this one's over here on this side of the kitchen and this one is two feet away i'm like well maybe we make it six feet away and they're like oh my god that worked it's so much better it's like wow that's pretty common sense right so that's an easy one uh the biggies are typically the high value chew resources the the bully sticks the bones and all that again i manage that if i need to um you know because i have to i had four dogs out the other day lab border collie the little the little dogs they all have their chew bones and they're all fine fat dumb and happy because my those dogs will actually heed warnings which i think warnings are perfectly appropriate um if the other dog will heed the warnings we're probably pretty good the problem starts when you know one of them does a lip curl and the other one does i don't care i'm going to take that from you uh that's when problems happen so are there things i can do to to uh to change that of course um we can do some counter conditioning uh we can do some request uh approach training which leslie mcdevin stuff um and we just add in the resource there so resources another area of conflict is oftentimes small spaces bathrooms um kitchens and kitchens also have food so there's a double whammy there uh thresholds is a big issue uh playtime going or even going for a walk um if you you know god forbid if uh if you have a dog that when you reach for that leash and they start bouncing and barking and spinning and jumping and you have another dog who goes whoa that barking bouncing spinning and jumping is a little a little concerning to me we might have conflict right there

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so teaching that calmer behavior around whatever the trigger areas are is extremely important and normally i see that in feeding attention seeking petting just teaching your dog okay phyto one you get a pet phyto two you get a pet phyto three you get a pet um and kitty four you get a pet um so you know that's again creating some predictability so attention food bowl uh chew toys toys to play with outside there is no way in heaven's name i would play with the malinois and the border collie with toys at the same time without first teaching them a nice station right have i done that nah i'm gonna do it number one malinois my husband's border collie's mine but they're both high drive toy dogs i'm just not gonna do that um again could i if i wanted to absolutely look at sarah bruski look what sarah bruski does with her umpteen dogs you know and she even has them on cue so it absolutely can be done um but thresholds tends to be probably a big issue and oftentimes i see intra housemate dog stuff crop up as dogs mature um and oftentimes that's from pain um the amount of pain that is contributing to intra housemate dog aggression is very high from my case loads uh i they've been living together for six years and they've been fine and now all of a sudden they're snarking at each other and i'm like okay number one let's get into the vet let's you know maybe we need to do a trial of getting them on some anti-inflammatories talk to your vet about some some supplements that kind of stuff and sometimes that helps immensely and they're you know wow that was a medical issue it wasn't a behavior issue so that helps but normally by the time i get called get called in they've already had 16 000 fights and we've been to the vet three times and by that time sometimes there's not a whole lot of hope it used to be that if your dogs had injured each other more than twice to the point of vet care the chances of reintegrating them were slim i don't know how accurate that is um it's not a bad rule to abide by um um but i do think it's going to take a lot of work if your dogs are already doing damage to each other then that's that's going to be a lot of crate rotate type situation you know you can reduce the severity of the frequency but it's never going to go away it's just not yeah how much so you're talking a little bit about management in there and you're talking a little bit about um skills earlier how kind of where's that balance point or where's kind of that tipping point like how much of what we need to think about

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in these types of situations is management stuff and how much of it's you know really kind of teaching the animals involve some new things um that's gonna honestly depend on the client or the human factor right there are some people like think thank the lord that oh my god you told me it's okay for me to like feed them separately and that i can actually give one more attention than the other or you know separate that attention and they all they have time to do is management you know they have three kids and two dogs that want to eat each other and they you know they've realized they don't have time to train so a lot of that comes down to the to the person and what they want to do um i think having some basic skills name game is one um a sit eye contact high hand target and a settle that's pretty much my my criteria when i work with a behavior case i love a hand touch i love offered eye contact i love an offered sit or even a cute sit and i love a settle give me those four things and i'm pretty much good i can work through a lot of other things chin rest would be on the list uh as an extra uh in fact i just uh came back from texas and i had my border collie with me and i was staying at a friend's house who has a german shepherd who is not overly great with other dogs she's very anxious and she's lovely with my labrador because he's a labrador he's that kind of labrador uh he's very you know he's like i love everybody and there's no conflict and nothing and but my border collie's like what are we doing what are we doing what are we doing and she's like dude chill out that chaos is i can't handle that so she's trying to hurt him and he's like don't do that so i'm having to you know when they were together there was a lot of management you know dempsey settle velvet go to your place because she has a nice little place and um because she's a dog i've trained before and um so i was able to get them calm you know outside they're fine because they can move and run and chase and he can get away from her and she can get away from him and all is good and they can actually run around the pool and everything's fine but in the house is very different um and um so what was starting to happen was i was starting to see both of them kind of start to come up and dempsey was getting a little bit you know like he was just getting too much so i just chinned him you know he dempsey here chin five seconds of calm breathing all done and he'd walk away you know and i would i was having to do i was having to be the interrupter right i could see things start to escalate and i'd go okay dempsey here chin

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that would give velvet a little bit of chance to settle down of course stony was there too he was just kind of an innocent bystander and um so i had to use that for him right because it's a duration behavior that can calm them down the stillness in and of itself helped calm the other dog down so um so those are my that my training skills uh that's pretty much all i like to need to teach are those foundation skills um so that's what i teach and it's just a balance of how much do i need to manage and and uh how much do i need to train like i say it's going to depend on the the client um and their situation and that's why it's so fun working with these clients um in their homes so to speak i see their life and how they can manage things you know versus uh um you know doing something remotely or doing something um you know even through video i don't see the whole house um you know uh like the gal i was with i didn't realize until after day two that her dog had a doggy door that was taking him out to the backyard where he was allowed to go bark and and harass the other dog and i went oh well that's something that's got to change because he would come in and he'd start spinning and barking and like okay uh we're gonna have to stop that for a while and uh so again it that turned out to be just more of a management um exercise but knowing the situation is really helpful and i spent a lot of good a lot of time on that initially um it with my gold spots is i have to understand their their environment the people involved their household their yard um and of course the dogs involved so that's that's basically my first couple of days of uh of class is getting to know them and their situations so speaking of class in february you've got your new class your harmony in the household class do you want to talk a little more about kind of the structure of the class which you'll cover maybe who should consider signing up oh god i i started doing my syllabus or did my syllabus and it's like that's a lot oh my god there's a lot um because it i it's not just about the intra housemate stuff i mean yes that's going to be a huge part of it and there's going to be a lot of things that i i will introduce that i might say yeah you don't have to worry about that because that's not your problem but the next gold spot might be having a problem uh not with intra housemate stuff but maybe the dog is barking at them um i've um been kind of corresponding with somebody who i think will probably end up taking the class and the dog is very frustrated and over

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aroused at thresholds and will kind of bark and back up and bark and back up and bark and back and there's just a lot of conflict there uh it's not about another dog at all um so what i do with that person may be very different than what i do with a person who has dog to dog stuff so there's uh there's a lot of you know like i say trying to figure out what what the problem is um whether it's uh location whether it's attention whether it's actual interaction whether it's play um whether it's with people whether it's with vacuum cleaners um i have a client that i work with back in texas uh her dog had serious uh fear of phobia really of the trash trucks and we have worked dramatically in fact she sent me a video of her dog outside when the trash truck could be heard and he wasn't running to the closet not only was he not running to the closet which had been his go-to but he was no granted he wasn't like oh i love the trash truck he was like there's a trash truck i hear it but i don't have to run i'll just listen to it that for that little dog is huge so there's going to be applications there right you know is what is the what is the conflict and i'm trying to keep this in the house because my reactive class is kind of outside the house but it can also be inside the house but this is specific to in the house and i also i'm going to be doing my resource guarding class in very much april um so i'm trying to be you know not deal with resource guarding issues in this particular class so even though they're there's they're similar there's enough differences so you can do do two things yeah so lots of different bits and pieces lots lots and and i call it conflict you know anytime you have a situation in the house where things are not going as well as you want them to go that's kind of what this class is about it's it's kind of like a dumpster of all sorts of things um and i know uh denise you know you really need to tone it down i just can't just can't pick one thing and i could probably teach a class on settle absolutely i could teach a whole six weeks on settle because it's going to take about six weeks to get a really good settle um from my uh experience anyway yeah so i could do that we've covered a lot of ground uh any final thoughts or maybe key points you kind of want to leave folks with there's so much that fdsa is offering in february uh especially in the behavioral realm um because that's you know my niche um but um you know i think this will be a kind of a compilation of things that you probably already know uh which is always a lot of fun working

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with experienced fdsa students is because they uh they already have a lot of this information this knowledge um and so we can progress because now i can actually help them apply what they already know uh and the people that don't know it well then heck let's teach it you know and then you know maybe later on down the road we take it again and we can apply now the stuff that you've already trained so this is a class that's going to be for beginners or those that are more advanced um people that already have some of the tools in their toolbox and they just don't know how to put them in place uh or those that need those tools so it's again it's a dumpster of everything yeah all right well thank you karen so much for coming on the podcast and sharing a little bit about all this it's always great to talk with you melissa absolutely and thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in we'll be back next week with a panel from our upcoming one day conference on nose work if you haven't already subscribe to the podcast on itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available today's show is brought to you by the fenzy dog sports academy special thanks to me fenzy for supporting this podcast music provided royalty free by bensound.com the track featured here is called buddy audio editing provided by chris lang thanks again for tuning in happy training