E125: 줄리 플래너리(Julie Flanery) - 정밀한 자세와 명확한 소통

And I saw Sarah training this little pup, this little foster of hers online. And I thought, oh, I might need that puppy. It looks very much like Kashi, the black and white and kind of scruffy looking. And Sarah said that she was a Border Collie poodle mix. So I thought, okay, well, I can. That sounds kind of cool. And, of course, you know, Sarah is a fabulous trainer. So what better start could I have than having Sarah get her started on some of her training and foundation skills? I had to make a decision pretty quickly. I was going to do a workshop in South Carolina. And I could meet up with a friend of Sarah's that could get the puppy to the airport for me. And I could get her home. And so I just, you know, kind of bit the bullet and said, okay, let's do this. Even though I was still, I was like not even sure whether I was ready to get another dog or not and was, you know, thinking about it. But anyway, so I brought her home. And her name is Fi. And she and Kashi are great buddies. They get along great. I was a little bit surprised when the DNA results came back. And there's no Border Collie in her. So that was that took a little bit of an adjustment for me because I was, you know, seeing some Border Collie traits. And Sarah was also. And so my head was kind of wrapped around a Border Collie mix. And I don't know. Can I swear on this program? No, this is a PG rated. Oh, really? It's not PG rated? I don't know. Nope. Well, she ends up it ends up she's an Australian Shepherd Shih Tzu cross, which is quite interesting. And so if you, you know, put those two together, you end up with an aw shit. So but she's a great little dog. And I've really, really enjoyed learning from her and working with her. And I think she'll do some really cool, fun things. Yeah. I mean, I've seen some of your stuff and some of Sarah's stuff with her. And she certainly seems like a neat little dog. Yeah. Yeah. She's she's kind of funny. Her structure is a little bit odd. She's about four inches longer than Kashi, but the same height. So she's got these kind of short little legs and a long body. She kind of looks like a short little miniature bearded collie or something. So but she's a cutie. She'll she'll do fun stuff. Yeah. So you've kind of got a lot going on right now, lady. Registration just opened for August. And for August, you're teaching Joy of Healing, which I know I've had you on to talk about before and a positions, laterals and backing class. And then you've got a workshop also open for registration on fronts. And you're also teaching for FDSA's new pet professionals program.

You just finished up your first class for that. So I'm only partly joking with this one. But how are you doing all that? OK, you're scaring me now because that actually sounds like a lot, doesn't it? It does. It does. And it is because on top of that, you know, as you mentioned, I also run the rally free organization and teach on teach live classes and some private lessons, both online and live as well. So, yeah, I am pretty busy. You know, I really enjoy doing each and every one of these things. And so it makes it really hard to say no to things. For example, when you contacted me and said, you know, hey, let's do another podcast. And I was like, oh, sure, Melissa, when will I fit that in? But, you know, here I am because I enjoy it. And, you know, it's like it's true what they say. If you love what you do, you never work a day in your life. And so I have a tendency to put more activities into my life than the time I actually have. Miraculously, everything seems to get done. I don't seem too stressed or worried about it. And I think that just boils down to I really enjoy what I'm doing. And, yeah, sometimes you have to this week I'm going to spend more time on this. And next week I'll spend more time on this. And no, I don't have a life outside of this. That's not actually true. I have good friends. And if you follow me on Facebook at all, you see that I actually do have a life outside of this. But it generally includes good friends and food and dogs and all the things that I enjoy doing. So, you know, it's just that's that's just what life is right now. And I'm just really enjoying the opportunities that I have because, you know, who knows? Next year I might not have these opportunities. And so I'm going to take advantage of them while I have them. I was thinking I didn't even mention that you're still presenting all over. So yeah, I do travel about once a month. And matter of fact, I just got back from Florida. A really fun workshop in Gainesville there. A really great group of learners there and had a really good time. And looking forward to what is this? This is August. This is September, August. Oh, I'm going up to BC, Canada next month. And then the following month I'll be in New Hampshire with Julie Daniels team weekend. So that'll be really fun. Yeah, yeah. I get to see you there. Yay. I'm looking forward to it. So a slightly more serious question. Is there kind of a core thing that you're trying to get out into the world right now? Or, you know, kind of a focus for you as a trainer and an instructor? Ooh, boy. You know, that's a really hard question.

Because I think if you look at some of the things I'm doing, they all seem kind of different. I mean, as you said, I'm doing the Pet Professionals program, which is geared toward not just new trainers, but for new trainers or trainers working to gain more experience and knowledge and understanding so they can do a better job at what they do. I'm competing in freestyle and I'm working with freestyle competitors and improving and upping their game and putting a little bit more precision into what we see out there in the freestyle world. And, of course, that has to do with the Rally Free and how I've developed that. I love, love, love the online classes because in those classes, I'm really working with people in terms of building their communication skills with their dogs. So I think if I had to say there was maybe one core thing that kind of drives me in what I do, it would be helping handlers become better at communicating either to their clients or to their dogs. I think communication is key if you're going to be successful in either training people or training animals. And if I look at it, I think everything I've done so far, that is going to be a big focal point for me is really clear communication. I was going to say, for me, I definitely think of you kind of, you know, as the queen of clean training, you know, when it comes to the topics you're teaching. Can you talk a little bit about maybe how you structure things to keep that training clean? I'm assuming that that kind of couples with that communication piece, right? Oh, it totally couples with communication. Matter of fact, that's the purpose of clean training. That's the purpose of clean mechanics and having structure in your training. You know, training is really all about, certainly it's about motivation and reinforcement and building criteria. But the thing is, we can't do any of those things. Your reinforcement doesn't work unless you've clearly communicated your criteria to the dog. Um, and if the dog has no idea how to earn reinforcement, or if he has to struggle to figure out what it is that you want from him, then, then he, he's farther away from that, that reinforcement piece of it. And that's really what the drive, the, the dogs are, are driving toward. That's what drives behavior is that reinforcement. So what clean training does and what clean mechanics does is it provides the dog, uh, a much more clear chunk of information on which to then act on in order to earn reinforcement. Clean training has to do with a lot of different things.

I think probably more than what people think of, I think people think of mechanics, you know, click, then treat, don't overshadow your cues. But clean training really has to do with how you structure your session, um, how you release the dog from the crate. When you tell him it's time to work, when you tell him it's not time to work, um, how you set up your exercises, uh, whether you're using props or whatever you're using in, in an effort to be clear in your communication to your dog in how to earn that reinforcement. That, that, that you have a plan and some structure to it, that you're not going out and just winging it, uh, in terms of, which a lot of us do sometimes. I get that. Uh, but, um, and then I think there's that second part of clean mechanics. Uh, do you have enough treats? Are your treats of a size and shape and texture that makes them easy to get out of your pocket or bait, let bait bag and easy to deliver? Um, is your, uh, is your bait bag ever present in front of you or are your treats hidden until after you mark? Um, are you waiting until after you mark before you reach for your treat? And you might think that those things are minor or small things within a training session. I mean, who cares if I reach for the treat at the same time I click, right? Well, the dog cares because if I'm reaching for the treat at the same time I click, then the communication of the click is not there. The marker becomes reaching for the bait bag and we might as well not even click. And if the marker is reaching for the bait bag, then the dog's focus is going to be on your hand and when it reaches and not on the task that we're wanting them to perform in order to earn that reinforcement. So, I think that clean mechanics, clean training, I think it, for me anyway, it's a synonym for clear communication. I don't want my dog, I don't want my client's dogs, my students' dogs to have to filter through a lot of extraneous movement, extraneous, um, uh, verbiage that's spewing forth out of my mouth. Uh, it doesn't mean that we have to be silent and quiet when we're marking behavior or when we're training. Anybody who has watched me train or seen me train, there are times when I'm quiet and there are times when I'm not quiet. There's times when I'm moving and there's times when I'm still. And each one of those is done with a specific purpose in mind. And when I want my dog to concentrate, when he's shaping, when she's shaping, uh, and I want her to really think about the task and not about whether my hand is going to move to my bait bag, then I'm going to be more still.

If I want her thinking about how to be enthusiastic and, and put some energy into something, then I might be moving and I might be using my voice more. So I think there's, there's more to clean training and clean mechanics than what people think about. And it really has, I mean, the whole, all of it has to do with communication. How can we be more clear in our communication for the dog? And I think what's interesting is that there's so many fabulous trainers getting such great work out of their dogs, uh, with maybe less than, you know, sparkling, clean training. And I have the opportunity to observe literally dozens and maybe even hundreds of really excellent trainers through Fensi Academy. Um, and they are doing magical, wonderful things with their dogs. It's, it's very impressive. And are there mechanics super clean? Some of them, yeah, some of them not so much. And that's part of my job is to, to teach them how to clean up those communication skills. And I think that sometimes we can get into a, oh, I don't know, kind of a, uh, thought process of, well, she's doing great. Why do I have to work so hard to, to hold my hand still when I click? Or why do I have to work so hard to not dig in my pocket for 12 seconds before I get my cookie? Um, she's doing great. She's getting it. And, you know, I always say to them, but you know, you don't know how much quicker the dog could learn this. If we took away all of that extraneous information that they're having to filter through just to get to the meat of what you really want them to understand. And I think when people look at it that way and they say, well, yeah, she's doing great, but how much better could she do if I cleaned up my act a little bit? And I think most people are really, really surprised. I think that's the biggest takeaway I get from my students in many of my classes. I just finished up, um, the level two rally free class. Oh, the shaping class. Oh, the shaping class was phenomenal. Um, the differences in the dog's ability to perform the task that we were trying to teach and communicate increases exponentially as the handler's mechanics became more clean and clear. Um, and I was just thrilled to be able to teach that class and see the changes in the dogs and the handlers.

So, so that's an example of, we may think that clean mechanics doesn't really matter that much, but when we actually put a little bit of effort into making some changes in how we communicate to the dog through our structure, the way we structure our training sessions and the way we use our body and our mechanical skills, uh, we see that it really does impact the dog's ability to learn much more than we might have thought previously. So, so that's part of why it's so important to me because I, I don't want to see dogs struggle and I don't want to see handlers struggle. I want to see dog and handler teams enjoying their training together, the time they're working together. Um, and I, I think that clear communication and clean mechanics is one of the ways that we can increase that enjoyment, that we can increase that relationship and, and that, um, uh, working relationship. That we have and make it a lot more fun for both the dog and the handler. So, so I guess that's why clean mechanics is so important to me because in the end, it's all about clear communication. And if I can be more clear, uh, clear in my communication with my dog, I'm going to do it. And if I can be more clear in my communication with my student, I'm going to do it. So it's, it's kind of like the same thing. My, for most handlers, their dog is their student. And so, um, you know, utilizing all the tools we have available to us, uh, including clean mechanics, including props, including, um, reinforcement and reinforcement schedules and markers and all of these other things. Uh, clean mechanics is probably to me, the foundation for everything else. So, right. Boy, was I a little passionate about that, Melissa? Sorry. I don't know. Maybe we hit on the topic that, uh, kind of runs through everything you're working on right now. Oh my gosh. It really is. It's really everything. And, and, you know, sometimes, um, I think all of, all the instructors, um, at FENSI, we all have very similar philosophies. We're all really big on clear communication with our animals. And I, all of us, if we watch a video, I think each one of us would have something that we would zone in on, that we would see, that we would, um, want to, uh, help the handler with, uh, you know, Denise, for example, Denise is very big on interpersonal relationship and interpersonal play skills. And so I, I think that would be something she would note right away in a video as to how she can help that handler work their interpersonal, um, play and relationship skills.

Whereas when I see a video, one of the first things that I zone in on would be that handler's mechanical skills. And how can I help that handler be a more clear communicator with their dog by improving their mechanical skills? So, so we're looking at the same video, but I think all of the instructors will see something slightly different. Um, uh, and I, I just think that, yeah, mechanics is kind of, I have an eye for that, I think. So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk for a minute just about your, your class that you have going on. I know we've talked, you know, we did a whole podcast in the healing class. So I want to kind of focus in on, um, some of the other stuff, specifically your positions, laterals and backing class. So, um, the name sort of says it all, but at the same time, if you don't know what it means, you may not know at all what it's about, right? So what positions are we talking about here? And what do you, what are you covering when you say laterals and backing? Yeah. So, um, a lot of people, when you say positions and depending on what sport you're in. So for example, with obedience, you might think, well, is she talking position changes? Like sit down, stand. Uh, are she talking heel in front or, you know, what, what does she actually mean positions? Because, uh, you know, I did compete in obedience and that was my first foray into competition was obedience, but I come from a freestyle world and in freestyle, we teach positions as stationary, um, static positions rather than, for example, left heel is a left heel forward. Uh, the positions I'm referring to in class are left heel, right heel, front and behind the handler. Those are the four primary positions for freestyle. However, if you'll notice, we do have left heel and front in that class. And so if you're in obedience or rally, then you're going to benefit from this class. Um, and we also have what's called in freestyle alternative positions. So these might be positions where, for example, a reverse heel where the dog's head is facing, um, behind the handler and the handler is moving backwards. Uh, it might be a position where the dog is perpendicular across the front or behind of the handler. It might be a position where, uh, the dog nose is at the hip and his rear is, uh, pointing straight out from the handler. And in this class, handlers will have the opportunity to practice one or more alternative positions, but we'll be primarily focusing on our left heel, right heel, front and behind. In the positions class, we are going to be separating out any other extraneous behaviors that you might want in your position.

So for example, in obedience for left heel and front in general, sit is very closely attached to the position. And we're going to be breaking that out so that the dog understands the position first. And only once we have strong understanding of the position, are we going to start to add in some of these other extraneous behaviors that we need for those sports, such as the sit in heel and the sit in front. Um, I think that, uh, I'm going to tie this a little bit into that front workshop, but, uh, I think that one of the biggest reasons that we have, um, crooked fronts is that the dog is being reinforced for a sit. And so he's in a hurry to get to that sit. And what happens is he's coming into that front position. He's also trying to get into the sit quickly. And so he's sitting before he's actually in position. And so breaking out the sit from the actual position training, uh, virtually eliminates that because the position itself becomes so strong. And that's the piece that's most heavily reinforced. The adding the sit in later is easy. Uh, and, and again, it virtually eliminates any of the dog trying to sit early and therefore sitting off center or off to the side. So, uh, we do work the positions in a standing position and I can hear some obedience. People say, Oh no, it's going to ruin my sit. I need my automatic sit. I need my default sit. Believe me, the sit is the easy part. The position is the most difficult part. And, and by separating them out, we can, we can get them both and we'll have a much more confident dog, uh, at what that criteria actually is. So, uh, so those are the positions. And then the lateral, uh, are actually part of position laterals. You might hear it referred to as side steps or side passing. Uh, this is where the dog moves in unison with the handler from any position, either in left heel, right heel, front or behind. And so if the dog is in left heel and the handler takes a step, right, the dog remains in left heel position, but is traveling to the right with the handler. And again, this is simply position work because I train position as a static behavior. The dog learns that when Julie says heel, she means get to her left side with my shoulder along her pant seam and my nose up and my eyes looking at her face, uh, and stay there. No matter what direction Julie goes, it's my dog's job to just remain in that position in relation to me, no matter the direction I move in. And what that does is it builds a really, really strong understanding of what my heel cue means. So if I, if my dog gets out of position, let's say, let's say I'm competing and my dog, some

gets slightly distracted, gets out of position. He knows how to get back into heel quickly. He knows how to find it. He knows how to stay there and he wants to stay there. So he works hard at that. Uh, and I think that might be one of the primary differences between the way freestylers train heel work and the way in my experience, I have seen, uh, obedience competitors train heel work. And that is that, or I'm sorry, that train position. And that is that the heel position is associated with a sit and heel position is associated with moving forward. And the way, uh, I like to teach it is that the position is trained in relation to the handler in the stand first. And then we add the movement forward or backward or sideways. And then we add the sit so that the dog is getting a lot of reinforcement and a lot of information as to how to correctly perform each one of those criterion before we put them together. So then the backing, let's see, we got the position, we got the laterals. Uh, the backing again, really laterals and backing are simply position with added criteria of movement. And in the backing, we could, uh, be backing away from the handler. We could be backing in front of the handler, but remaining in that front position. So the handler moves with the dog. We could be, um, moving back in heel or right. Uh, and again, it, it helps the dog understand about the position and the value of staying in position. And I, I think that, um, a lot of handlers struggle with that, having the dog understand their job of where they should be, whether moving or stationary. Did I get them all? Did I get positions, laterals and backing? Okay. You cut all of them. Good, good. You're a big fan of kind of using platforms for these things, right? So can you talk a little bit about why platforms, what advantages they offer? Yeah. So what platforms do is they define the criteria. They define the space in which, um, uh, a position should be held. So it's important that the platform be customized to the dog. Initially, you can have a platform that's a little bit, um, wide, uh, but as the dog starts to find value in and want to remain on the platform, get to and remain on the platform, we want to make sure that our platforms are customized to our dogs because that's how we create that criteria. And that's how we're able to reinforce that criteria and build value in that criteria in a way that when we remove the platform, the dog still chooses to get into that position in relation to the handler. We want our positions always to be thought of as in relation to the handler.

So when we use platforms, we can actually put that platform in the position in relation to the handler. And it tells the dog exactly where that position is. And it allows the handler to reinforce that exact position rather than kind of guessing a little bit. Ooh, was he out a little bit? Was he curled behind me a little bit? No, he's going to always be correct when he's on the platform. As long as, and here's the caveat, you know, we have a saying, if he's on the platform, the dog is right and you should reward him. Well, that's half true, but let's say you have the platform and the dog is on the platform, but the handler is not square to the platform. So maybe their hip or shoulder is slightly off from the platform. So it's the handler's responsibility too, to make sure that they are set up in relation to the platform so that the dog, when he's on it, truly is in the correct position. So the dog could be on the platform and not be in heel position. True also at the position, the platform, I'm sorry, is the incorrect size. There are some dogs that can stand crooked on a platform, no matter how narrow that platform is. And so you want to be really, really aware of that. For front specifically, we want to make sure that our hips and our shoulders become the reference point for the dog once the platform is removed. And I think too, that in addition to platform, let me go back just for a minute, because I think also when I talk about platforms initially for position, I'm referring to standing platforms, because I want the dog to learn how to work their rear end to get into position. And so I teach the dog standing first. It doesn't mean I don't also want to teach the dog a sit position as well, but I'm going to have a sit platform for that. So if I have a platform that's long enough for the dog to stand on, I want the dog to know he should be standing on it. If I have a platform that is only big enough for the dog to sit on, then the dog knows, oh, this is my sit. This is what I sit on. In order to get all four feet on the platform, I've got to be sitting. And then I have my front foot platform where the dog learns that, oh, I can only fit my front feet on here. So that's what I'm going to do is put my front feet on here. So there's different sizes of platforms that are actually the cue for the behavior that you want the dog to perform on the platform. So in addition to my standing platform or my sit or my pivot platform, my two foot platform, I also like to use other props. And many are probably familiar with the training gates that I use.

The pivot platform, again, is another prop that I like to use for position work. And I find that the more props, the more aids that I use to convey the criteria to the dog, the more ways that I can create the criteria that is going to earn a nice high rate of reward to create that pattern in the dog, the easier it is to start to remove those props as part of the process. We can't have the props in the ring. So we have to get the dog away from those aids. And if we're only using a single aid, it can be difficult or more difficult, I think, to remove that aid. It's easy for the behavior, the prop, I'm sorry, to become part of the behavior. Oh, I can't do a front because there's no platform there. Front includes the platform, right? So we want to make sure that we're not spending so much time on any single prop that the prop becomes an integral part of the behavior in the dog's mind. So by using multiple props, the only clear and consistent criteria is what the dog is doing, the behavior itself. And that makes it easier to start to withdraw and remove the props. And of course, getting that behavior on cue first before starting that process is incredibly important because the props, the platform is the cue to get into position. So before we start to remove those props, we want to be sure we add that cue. But yeah, I think the platforms are one of the first things that I teach my dogs. There are maybe a handful of things that I like my dogs to learn pretty quickly when they first come to me as part of their overall foundation training. And platforms are the standing platform is one of the first things that I teach and where to set up in relation to my body with that and that that's a really good, good, fun place to be. That's your sweet spot. And if it's available, you want to get there. So yeah. So you sort of went ahead and answered what was going to be my next question, which I was going to say. No, it's okay. I was going to say that I think the downside for most people is that they worry about removing it from the picture and kind of maintaining criteria. But you kind of answered that just by working with different platforms and kind of generalizing that cue, right? Right. Exactly. The cue is incredibly important for removal of props and making sure that you're not on a single prop for so long that it becomes an integral part of the behavior itself. I think the other thing that happens is sometimes we go into prop training or training with aids without a clear plan of how to remove them. We know we should be using them. We know they create criteria.

We know they create opportunity for reinforcement and muscle memory and patterning and all those good things that we want. But we don't really fully think about, well, what is the protocol for removing this platform? And that causes an issue in and of itself because we just end up staying on that platform or any prop for too long. Remember, any time that we are wanting to raise criteria, we need to raise criteria when the dog is predictable and consistent and confident at the previous criteria. And that can happen pretty quickly when we're using props, which means the next criteria is for them to do it without the prop, okay? So if we get in that rut of not raising that up and removing that prop in a timely fashion, then again, the behavior becomes, or I'm sorry, the prop becomes an integral part of the behavior. What I think a lot of handlers don't realize is that there is a protocol, that it is a process of removal. You don't just take it away. And the first step in that process is, of course, to put the behavior onto another cue because the prop is the cue initially. So when we remove that cue, we have to have something to replace it with. The second thing I think that people don't fully realize or understand is that when we remove the prop, we're going to lose criteria. The dog isn't going to be as straight. The dog isn't going to be as perfect as he was with the prop because the prop is what created that criteria for us. So we have to be willing to accept a little less criteria, lowered criteria, mark earlier in the process. That doesn't mean accept a lesser version, a sloppier version of the criteria. It doesn't mean accept a crooked front. It means click sooner as they are moving into the front before they get crooked. Does that make sense a little bit? Yeah. I hope I'm saying that correctly. That when we remove that target of the prop, of the platform, if we wait for the dog to come all the way in, the first time we remove the platform, he's likely to be crooked. However, if we mark the behavior sooner along the correct path of coming into front, now we've marked correctness. We haven't accepted a sloppier version. We've created the step before a full front. And as we continue that shaping process, the dog will very quickly shape back up. The other thing I do is I ping pong between prop, no prop. So that might be in the same set of exercises. Uh, I, my removal of my prop needs to be very, uh, unobtrusive. I need my dog to not notice the prop is being removed. So I usually remove props mid session.

Um, so that the only thing that they're thinking is that the prop is still there, even though as they approach, the prop is no longer there. And I have opportunity to mark that correct approach. So, and then I can use my, my reinforcement strategies and all those other things. But I think, um, knowing that removing the prop doesn't mean you take it away and now you're left with whatever's left. There is a process. And, um, like anything else, if we follow a process, we're much more likely to meet our end goals than if we go about it randomly. So I think that's the main thing about removal. When you start that ping ponging process, um, that's when you start marking a little on the early side when they're coming in, right? When there's no prop in there. Correct. And then, uh, you know, you do start to shape that up to where you're marking, um, a behavior that more resembles a full front. You're not always marking early at that point, but you're shaping those increments back up towards your full front. But it goes very quickly because of the dog's, uh, experience with the platform and history of reward with the, the correct position in relation to the handler. Um, it goes fairly quickly. Uh, and this is one of the reasons why I think shaping is, is such an important foundation skill for both dogs and handlers, because it makes, uh, the whole process of training go much more quickly. It creates a very thoughtful animal in terms of, um, of, uh, wanting to create that criteria that were, was being created by the props. Now the animal can start to internalize some of that criteria and create it on their own. So, yeah. Anything else you kind of want to share about the class or anything you want to say maybe about, um, you know, who should take it? Yeah. You know, a lot of my classes are set up in the rally and freestyle school, the school of rally and freestyle, uh, and really, truly all of the classes I teach with the exception of, of maybe the classes such as building a freestyle routine or, um, uh, sequences and flow that are very specific to freestyle. Any and all of these classes are applicable to any of the ring sports, obedience, rally, um, the, they aren't just for the freestyler. So for example, the joy of healing rocket, like a freestyler, uh, it's a healing, it's a healing class. It's a way to find, um, that joy of healing for your dog to find that joy of healing, but also maintain some of the precision and work towards that accuracy that we all want. It's not just a class for freestylers. It is the way that I, as a freestyler approach training heel work.

Um, so, so that's kind of why it's in those classes because I'm approaching training maybe a little bit differently than someone that's coming from the obedience world. Uh, and I think that's good. I think it gives people a new perspective, maybe allows you to try exercises that are a little bit outside of the box. Maybe something that you haven't tried before that could be really beneficial, but it's just coming from a different, um, sport in the world of training. And because freestyle is such a small niche. And when I first started, uh, in freestyle, there were no freestyle trainers. I could not find a freestyle trainer to save my life. Um, I remember the very first freestyle workshop I ever went to, I had to drive 10 hours to get there. And then the second one was canceled because of lack of interest. So most all of my early freestyle training, um, was taught on the fly. I mean, I, I was trial and error. Does this work? Does this work? Wow. This works best. Uh, how can I convey this to the dog when nobody had done this before? There were, you know, who, how do you teach a behind position? How do you teach, you know, uh, a right heel? Because nobody taught right heel then. How do you, you teach these lateral side passes because that wasn't a thing in training heel work at that time. So a lot of these, um, techniques that freestylers have come up with, uh, we've taken what we know from the obedience world. There's value in what we learn through the way folks are training and obedience, but there's also value in looking a little outside the box and saying, Hmm, maybe there's, there's an another way or an additional way, or, uh, there are other ways to communicate this so that the dog might actually, uh, understand it a little bit more clearly. And I think that's the value of maybe looking outside of some of the classes that are just meant for ring obedience trainers or competition obedience trainers, that there's a lot of value in going and looking at the trainer of another sport and the exercises and activities that they might encourage you to try to see if it will benefit you and your dog in your training. So, so I, same with the positions, lateral and backing class. Um, even though I'm teaching it with freestyle in mind, we all use these positions. We all want to be more clear in our communication to our dogs. We all want to utilize the aids and props that are available to us in order to communicate criteria to our dogs, to create a higher rate of reward. But we also need to know how to remove those from the training process.

And so, so I think, I think the classes that I teach in the school of rally and freestyle are going to benefit more people than you might think. Right. So I'd imagine there's a fair amount of crossover there in terms of approach and maybe even a little bit in terms of content with, with between the fronts workshop that you kind of have going on and the positions class. Can you share a little bit about the fronts workshop? You know, what, what's kind of the scope of that class and how you're planning on kind of covering that? Yeah. Um, and I do cover fronts in the positions class as well. Um, and a lot of what I'll be talking about in the fronts workshop, I'll try and get it all covered in the positions class as well. But basically we're talking about, again, ways that we can clearly communicate the criteria so that the dog doesn't have to guess where front is and the handler doesn't have to guess where front is. Oh, I wish I had a, I wish you could see me on camera right now so I could demonstrate. But you know how when oftentimes when we teach front and when I first learned to teach front, when I was competing in obedience, the way that I was told to teach front was to literally lure the dog into, in front of me and into the sit, bringing that lure upward. So the dog would come in close and come in straight. And, uh, you know, if you've ever worked with a lure, you know, that just because you lead the head somewhere doesn't mean that you're going to, to the dog's body is going to follow in a straight line. And so oftentimes if we're using luring as a means to show the dog, the criteria front, we end up doing these little kind of steps to the side a little bit and shift our shoulders around and pull our lure backwards and off to the side a little just to get the dog straight. So a lot of the front workshop is going to be talking about and teaching handlers how to communicate the criteria of straight and close and eyes on me and fast and energetic without the use of a lure, um, through using props and, uh, also through using reinforcement strategies, where we reward, how we reward, um, and using fun games to create an energetic, uh, front position, a dog that really wants to, to drive into that front position and then collect himself and, uh, pull that sit in and lift upward so that he is in that really nice, tight, straight position. Um, I think we have probably, um, I want to say at least a half a dozen, maybe eight different exercises and games that you'll learn in the workshop that you'll have an opportunity to practice in video and then send in for, for video review.

Uh, and I, I think it's a really, I think it's a really fun workshop. I enjoy it. I like teaching fronts. So is it, um, for people with no fronts? Is it for people who have a front and just need to clean it up? I mean, what's the, what's the audience? Yep. It's for people who have no front for people who don't like their front that they have for people that want to, um, you know, maybe they're, they're missing one little piece or sometimes the dog is crooked, but most of the time the dog is straight. How do we just tweak a little bit so that I get more consistency? So I get more, uh, understanding in the dog of what that actual criteria is. Um, oftentimes there are really simple things that we can change within the handler that affect the dog's ability to give us what we want. And, and we have a tendency sometimes to sabotage our own criteria by reinforcing in a way or delivering reward in a way that actually affects future repetitions. Remember reinforcement strategies don't affect the current rep. Reinforcement strategies affect and benefit future reps. So for example, if we're sometimes feeding the dog, uh, off to our right thigh, then within a few reps, you're probably going to notice that your dog's rear end is pointed towards your left. And that's a direct result of where you're feeding. So oftentimes we can make these minor changes in, uh, reinforcement and get what we want from the dog. Remember the dog only learns what we teach him. And so if you're getting crooked fronts, you're probably teaching crooked fronts. And so we're going to look at all of the different ways that we can be more clear in our communication about what we want when we tell the dog front. Right. Right. I just want to say, I think the, the workshops, you know, they're kind of new to FDSA, but I think they are such an awesome opportunity and folks haven't quite caught on to how awesome they can be yet. I don't think, you know, as of at least last night, when I was writing up some questions for this, there were still working spots available for your friends' workshop. What? Really? I didn't actually get, I think so. I thought it was full. Maybe it's full now. Maybe, uh, it filled between the time that I looked last, but last time I looked, there was still a couple spots left. Oh, well, nab those spots, people. Maybe it's my admin's access on the website. Maybe it just always shows it's available for me. I don't know. Yeah. I think, I think there might be, I think last time I looked, there were nine or 10 spots taken. I think we take 12. Is that right? Or do we take 15? I think that's right. I think it's 12 for the workshops.

Yeah. Yeah. So there might be a couple spots left. Um, I think even, even if you don't get a working spot, uh, if you, um, uh, you know, working on it. Yeah. I mean, obviously you're going to get a lot out of this. And, and again, the nice thing is that the workshops, um, unlike the webinars, I think what I like about the workshops is that you're given exercises to practice. You are literally said, this is your homework, go train, uh, and then come back and show me what you have and we'll tweak it to make it better. Um, and the nice thing too, is that you're seeing 10 or 12 other people, uh, working these exercises. And I, as I said, we have several exercises. So you might be working one exercise, but you get to watch somebody else working the next exercise that maybe you're not quite ready for, but you'll get the coaching and the advice that I might give that person as well. So I think that's really valuable too. It's like a, it's like, you know, when you're a gold student or even a bronze student and you get to learn from the gold students videos. So that's kind of nice. Right. And unlike the normal classes, you know, because these aren't forums, they're actually videos. Both videos go in your library. So both the first video and the feedback video, um, or something that you can go back and reference later. And you get a ton of information in just that one week period, rather than trying to make it through your six weeks, which can be really difficult depending on your schedule and your motivation. It's, it's, uh, I really like, I like the workshops quite a bit. Me too. And I mean, I was going to just kind of round it out there by saying folks get your feedback if working spots only 39 95. So you really can't beat that for feedback. I mean, a seminar these days, you know, go to a one day seminar and you're going to spend way more than that. Right. And you probably get less feedback. Yeah. Yeah. So this is really one of the few opportunities that I think is truly low cost and still manages to really be a valuable way to get some really top notch instructors and their eyes on your dog and your training. So I just wanted to kind of plug workshops generally, but I also kind of want to talk about your PVP stuff. So PVP, hopefully at this point, everybody knows what that is. It's the pet professionals program. Um, you just finished your first one. I know on shaping, capturing, and learning. I know you have two others scheduled for later this year, but, um, kind of first why the pet professionals program, which got you excited about the program? What, uh, what, how did Denise Kanyan join in the team?

Um, it's, you know, it's kind of interesting. Um, I taught pet classes for almost 20 years and it took me the first 10 to kind of get a handle on what I was doing and to feel competent and, and kind of confident at it. Denise and I were at a conference and a lot of the, uh, handlers there were also instructors teaching other people. And, uh, it just seemed that there was some education that was lacking and more than education, there were some handling skills that were lacking. I think Denise started probably thinking about how can we help trainers of other people? The school FDSA tends to be focused on helping handlers train their own dogs. And many of these people are trainers of other people. Um, there are a lot of programs out there now. When I was first learning how to be a dog obedience instructor, how to teach pet people, how to train their dogs, there weren't that many programs available in it. And I learned by taking a lot of classes with my own pet dog and then apprenticing under, um, another trainer instructor that gave me that opportunity to teach others about dog training. Um, I apprenticed under what I would consider now a balance trainer. So while I was learning how to teach, I was also still learning myself how I wanted to train. What was my training philosophy? What did I want to include in my own training for my dogs? And what did I want to teach others about? And while there are now more options available, I think, for people that want to be dog obedience instructors or pet dog trainers is, it's funny because I think of, uh, I use the term there dog obedience instructor. That was kind of the term that we used when I first started. And now it's pet dog trainer. Uh, it is kind of funny how, how terminology changes. Um, but, uh, I think that there are a lot of opportunities to learn about learning theory and how to apply some of the training techniques and, um, how to train your own dog. I don't know that there's that many opportunities on how to teach people in the real world. Uh, I know that when I was just getting started, I was super excited about this new world to me. I mean, I remember the first time my dog learned a behavior through clicker training. Oh my God. I was like, I was like, it was like magic to me. Truly. It was magic. And I just wanted to, to share this with everybody. And I, I wanted to learn all I could about learning theory and, and, um, how to apply these techniques and motivation and reinforcement and punishment and positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, all of this stuff. I just wanted to know about it.

And, and I wanted to tell everybody about it and I want to teach about it. I want everybody to know the magic of shaping and the magic of clicker. And, um, you know, and like I said, it took me 10 years to kind of get a grasp on the fact that what's important to me and where I am at in, in my level of training and skill and how I want to relate to my dogs and, and what I want to do in performance sports, um, that doesn't always mesh with what our clients want. Um, and I think that it's easy to forget that as we become more knowledgeable and skilled and we want to share this knowledge with the world, it's easy to forget that our goals aren't our pet dog client goals. And I think what this program does that, that might be missing in some other programs is, um, it, it gets us back to some real world training and it looks at not only the dog's needs, but the client's needs and how are we going to help them feel successful so that they can have, um, uh, a relationship with their dogs that is good for both of them. It's, you know, it's one thing that a dog can learn all of these fabulous things. I mean, we all know there are no bounds to what we can teach our dogs. And so we go that route. We, we teach things that are outside of the realm of most dog owners. Okay. Most dog owners don't need this stuff. Most dog owners just need to learn how to live happily with their dogs so that those dogs can stay in their homes. And I think that the instructors for PPP, we all have the same philosophy. We want to be kind to our clients. We want to be kind to the dogs and we want to teach our clients how to be kind to their dogs and still get the job done. Because in the end we can teach a client everything they want to know about shaping, about clicker, about learning theory, about positive reinforcement, about negative reinforcement, about what this means and that means. And I think it's important for trainers. If you're going to teach other people about how dogs learn, you need to understand that. But does your client need to know all that? Do they really need to get a degree in animal behavior in order to teach their dog to stay off the counter, in order to teach their dog to walk nicely on leash? And so for me, I think it's a nice integration of using what we know about learning theory, positive reinforcement, applying these techniques to create behavior in our dogs that makes them easy to live with so that our pet dog owners enjoy owning a dog. Most people, I think, who go to a pet dog class, or at least when I first started teaching,

I think it's changing a little now, but when I first started teaching, the reason people came to a pet dog class was because they had a problem. And they couldn't fix it themselves. And by now that problem had gotten to the point where it would be very difficult to fix. They just wanted that problem fixed. They didn't want to train their dog. They just wanted the problem fixed. Now, I think we're seeing more people understand what dogs are capable and they want to take a little bit farther. But before they can, they need to get simple things, household manners under control. We don't need to shape household manners. There are a lot of ways to teach a dog household manners and make the owner feel good about that dog. So then we can maybe guide them into those next steps. And as I said, I think the PPP program does this in a way that teaches new trainers or even experienced trainers what they need to know about dog training and behavior. What are the processes? What are the learning theories? And now how are you going to communicate that to a lay person that has no interest other than results? That's what they want. Results. They want success with their dogs. And I think that's what the PPP program does. So you didn't come right out and say this, but you were talking through that. And it just, you know, it kind of struck me that it's very similar to what you're talking about earlier in the episode about, you know, when you're training a dog, you're trying to cut out all of that extraneous information that we tend to throw into the learning picture and put them on a quick, a path to reinforcement, a quicker path to reinforcement so they can get to the reinforcement fast and learn how to solve the problem. Exactly. Melissa, you are brilliant. I don't know, Julie, you said it. I just put the two together. Yeah. You know, it really is about clear communication. I had a conversation with a good friend of mine this morning. She's a student also, and she's also an up and coming trainer. She's been training for a long time with her dog. She's been successful with her dog. She wants to share this with other people. She enjoys teaching people and teaching dogs. And she's struggling a little bit right now because she wants so bad to teach them all the things, you know. She wants to help them appreciate their dog for the learning machine their dog could be. But, you know, she's struggling with how to clearly communicate what it is they need to know and how to apply it. I think not only do we need to be able to clearly articulate to our clients, say, how to perform an exercise. How do I teach my dog to X, Y, Z?

Well, first you do this, and then you do this, and now you have to do this. Not only do we have to teach them those things, but we also need them to become very aware that this is a process. Things don't happen overnight. Most of our pet dog clients want change now. And there are things we can do to give them, oh, I don't know, a little bit of reinforcement there, a little bit of, you know, I guess maybe we're shaping their behavior. Look how great she did that sit. I know you want her to sit for 10 minutes, but look how great she did that sit. We'll get there. And I think it's hard for clients to really break things down. And in that same regard, you know, so here is my friend. She wants to teach them all the things. And I'm, you know, trying to convey to her, I said, you know, we need to break it down for our dogs. We need to break it down for our clients. And as much as we want to, our clients want to teach their dog something very quickly and give them all the information at once, we know dogs can't learn that way. And as much as you want to teach your clients all the things, we know they can't learn that way. And so we just need to take little slices of learning and articulate very specifically to our clients. Let them see success with that little bit. And then we assess how much more can we give this client? And do we really need to go into all of the things that we understand as animal training experts? So, yeah, it's a struggle because you want to save all the dogs, right? And you're thinking, oh, that poor dog, that poor dog. And Denise had a really great post last week about how oftentimes traditional trainers create a relationship with the client, whereas positive reinforcement trainers tend to create a relationship with the dog. And we're in it for the dog. We're in it for the dog. But you know something? We're not going to be able to help that dog if we can't help the client first. And so, you know, even though my focus in training is going to be to benefit the dog, I can't benefit the dog until I help that client. So it was just very interesting post to me. And she's right. We need to build a team between the client and the dog, create that teamwork. Um, but it's, it's, it's not just about the dog. It's about that combination of the dog inhaler team. So I want to steer things back a little bit to the classes that you have coming up for the two that have yet to happen. You have your, your managing a skills class and your class formats class. Can you just share a little bit about what each of those classes cover? Like what you're going to get into? Yeah.

So the managing a skills class is about kind of, uh, how to structure your classroom, how to set up your classroom, what types of things you want to plan for and be aware of. So, uh, for example, one of the things that I always did when I was teaching pet dog classes is I know where my spaces are. I, for example, in my pet dog classes, I could take six students based on the space that I had and the fact that it was me instructing and I would have one assistant instructor. And that was a reasonable number for us. Uh, and when dog inhaler teams enter into the building, especially the first night that can lead to a lot of chaos. People are trying to bring in all of their things at once. Their dog hasn't learned anything and is seeing all these other dogs and, and, uh, the leash is out to six feet and the treats are dropping everywhere by accident because you can't hold your treats. And now you've got the bag that you're supposed to carry all this equipment in that they told you to bring. And two dogs trying to get in the door at once. And, um, so, you know, planning for that first night, what is the structure? How are people going to enter that classroom? How are they going to get the dog out of the car? How, where are they going to park? Um, where are they going to potty? Uh, so for example, I would have people come in when they would come into the classroom, they would always take the spot farthest away from the door and then fill in the next spot closest to the door and the next spot. So the last dog coming into the classroom does not have to walk past any other dogs to get to their spot. So the last dog coming in classroom is takes the spot closest to the door. So simple things like that can go a long way in setting up, um, or, or in, um, minimizing some of the chaos that can happen on a very first night with dogs. So, uh, things like, um, demo dogs, how, how do you choose a demo dog? What do you do when the demo goes bad? You know, can you use that as a teachable moment? I've, believe me, I've had my fair share of demos gone wrong. Sure. I'd like to show with your dog. Would that be all right? Oh my God, that did not go as planned. Now what? Because you're the instructor, you're supposed to know what you're doing. And now you give an exercise and it didn't go that way. The dog did not do what you said was going to happen. So how do you handle that in the moment and still maintain your credibility as their instructor? What do you do when suddenly a dog erupts in barking in the classroom? Do you have a plan in place that everybody knows now, what should we do when all of the dogs erupt in barking?

So those are the types of things that I'll be talking about in how to create a successful skills class in the other class. Oh, I got to think. What was that again? Oh, the, um, class formats. Uh, in the class formats class, uh, we're going to be talking specifically about that. So, um, when I started teaching classes, it was an eight week class. Dogs came every single week and there were easily 20 to 25 students in a single class with one instructor. Um, and since then over the last 20 years, uh, and I think it actually really kind of started taking shape when Sue Ailsby started introducing the levels classes. We now have many, many different formats in which we can teach our pet dog owners and their dogs, the different skills that we want them to learn. So I think the way of the eight week class, um, is starting to subside. We're seeing more six week classes, short classes. We're seeing more levels type classes, revolving classes. We're seeing puppy one and puppy two, then family one, family two, rather than just when I started, you went to an obedience class and they were all mashed together. We're seeing sport classes. We're seeing senior dog enrichment classes. We're seeing physical fitness classes. We're seeing, um, summer shorts and, uh, two weekend workshops. Um, and so we're going to explore all of the different class formats, how you might choose to, um, provide those to your clients. Um, what are the different kinds of spaces you might need available for those, uh, class formats and what type of curriculum would you provide in those class formats? So. Sounds like super important skills here. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. If I were coming into dog training now, oh my gosh, um, how lucky, how lucky are you to be coming into dog training now because you have so many different options and you have so many different resources, really good resources now. So, um, I'm just, I'm really excited about the program. So I wanted to ask if you could just share a little, maybe on your perspective on, you know, really what it takes to have a successful group class. I think to have a successful group class as, as an instructor that is leading a class, you need to have, um, two things. I think primarily one structure, you have to have a plan. One, you have to have a plan B, and then you have to have a backup plan for your plan B. All right. So you need to have structure to your 45 minutes or hour that you're with your students. You need to supply them with structure of what happens in between those classes. What should happen in the week in between?

How are you communicating with them? Um, but you also have to have, the second thing I think you have to have is flexibility because, uh, every class you teach will be different. And every class you teach, those students will have different needs and those dogs will have different needs. And so you're going to want to be able to think on your feet, think on the fly. What does that dog need? He needs to be separated and have a little more distance. That dog over there, I need to give them a little higher value reinforcement to work with, a little higher value treat to work with on this session. What does that dog over there need? That dog needs to not have met so many people hovering around him. But that's going to change now with the next class. That's going to change with, especially if you're doing revolving classes and you're having new dogs come in each week. So that flexibility, um, is what's going to help. This is going to sound weird, but your flexibility is going to help you maintain structure. So your structure happens first, have a plan, know all the options that you can provide within your plan, and then have the flexibility to be able to change things up a little bit as needed and not get all out of sorts because of it. Um, anybody who has ever taught a group class knows exactly what I mean when I say, rarely will things go exactly as planned. Doesn't mean you throw out the plan. It just means that you have to be flexible in how you apply that plan. Right. Have to be adaptable. Have to be adaptable. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So to kind of round things out, uh, one last question for you, um, kind of the question I've been asking everybody when they come back on the podcast these days, you know, what's something that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Well, as you know, I just got another dog and it's been, um, eight years since I've had a new puppy or now adolescent, uh, in training and come into my household. Um, and I think that what she has taught me and, you know, you think, you know, this, you think, oh yeah, of course that's true. And everybody's going to say, well, yeah, duh, of course that's true. But until you are living it, I I've been reminded that no two dogs will learn exactly the same way. And that while the broader application of motivation, reinforcement, learning theory, um, and, and all of that, that it's really the, the nuances and the subtleties that we apply and how we fine tune and adjust those to the individual dog that creates a training relationship that is unlike any other.

So my training relationship with Kashi is very different from my training relationship with Fee. And sometimes, um, it takes reminding of that. And because I, I no longer teach pet dog classes. My focus is primarily on sport dog handlers. Um, I, I was able to be reminded of that every time I went out to teach a class because no dog inhaler team are the same, no dog inhaler going to interact in the same way. And not every dog, um, needs an exercise applied in the exact same way. And when I bring a new dog into my home now, that is the way that I am reminded of those things. Um, and, and really to pay attention to, um, what your dog is telling you. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Julie. This has been a deep and rich conversation here. Oh, it's been fun. It's been fun. Sorry. I got, I don't know. Sometimes I start talking. I just can't stop. No, I think it was great. So we went over the hour a little bit, but Hey, fine. Um, I think everybody will be glad we did. So thank you. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in and we'll be back next week. This time with Anne. Um, I'm not entirely sure I have French law name. I think it's Samurato to talk about getting your dog trial ready. She's a new FDSA instructor. So it'll be her first time on. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the FENZY Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise FENZY for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in. And happy training. Thank you.