Interview Kaizen K9

[00:00] Thank you. [00:30] Thank you. [01:00] Just trying to catch up, I think. I think okay? Yeah, I think so. Just trying to catch up, I think. I think okay? Yeah, I think so. We are live. My thing says we are live. Is it okay? This is my phone. We are live. [01:25] We are live. This is my phone. I know, it's not a live. We are live. We are live. Turn it off because you're going to make feedback. This is my phone. I know, it's not a live. We are live. It's got a bit of feedback. It's got a bit of feedback. It's got a bit of feedback. It's got a bit of feedback. [01:51] It's got a bit of feedback. It's got a bit of feedback. It's got a bit of feedback. Then you give the bad voodoo spirits. It's broken. [02:18] Yeah, bed number two. Have a good day. You give the bad voodoo spirits. Bed number two. Have a good day. You give the bad voodoo spirits. And you give the bad voodoo spirits. And you give the bad voodoo spirits. That's the best. That's the best. How are we looking? [02:44] Perfect. Yeah, it sounds good. All right. What was going on there? I think what happened was I had, when I shared it to Facebook, it was double feeding. So Facebook is running at the same time as the Zoom, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think we're good now. Okay, so we're live. Yeah, we're live. We're good. [03:09] We're live. So, hello, everyone. How are you going? I'm Ben Gertz from Kaizen Cana. With me is Ben Allen. And we have the privilege of talking to the goat, the Bellens. How are you guys? Today, we're going to focus on, well, first, I don't think the Bellens need any introduction. [03:35] They've been training dogs since Jesus played fullback for Jerusalem, and they're quite good at it. And today, we're going to focus on positive reinforcement and how Michael and Bart use that in a Napopo context. So, take it away, guys. Thank you. [04:05] The meeting is being recorded. Yeah. Can you hear us? Can you hear us? Normally, we don't have it recorded, but... We don't have to record it if you don't want. That's no problem. We prefer not because things can be taken out of the context. No problem at all. [04:35] Okay. How are you going? I'm shaved. So, it was quite a job. I'm living on a farm. So, once a week, shaving. Normally, on Saturday. Today, it was Sunday morning. So... And I just walked a few miles already trying to give water to the grass field.

[05:03] Ah, yeah. Just did plant grass. About two acres. And there is a heat wave going on here. So, we have the sprinklers. Otherwise, the whole world would laugh with our temptation of planting grass. What sort of temperatures you got there at the moment? Well, for you guys, it's cold. It's about 100 degrees. [05:29] So, you guys are freezing cold at 100. Yeah. What's 100 Celsius? It's 38, I think. Ah, in Celsius, about 40. No, no. It's 100. Yeah. In Celsius, yeah. In Celsius, it's 40. Yeah. 40. 40 is hot. 40 is hot. Yeah. Really. I remember the first Handsome Dogs, the golden, I think it was in Sydney, in a horse arena. It was close to 50. [05:55] Oh, gee. I was thinking, how can they live in hell? It is hot as hell. They must do a lot of sense in Australia to already burn. Instead, in purgatory, they already burn on earth, you know? It's very rarely 50. It's very rarely. It's in Australia. [06:20] But it's hard to train dogs in those weather, you know? Yeah. Yeah. In that hot weather, you need the dogs with drive. And the problem with the dogs with drive is they have so much drive that you must be careful that they don't die from a heat stroke. Yeah. And then... It's a big problem in Australia. And if you have a normal dog, you get the heat stroke from watching them being lazy, you know? Are we online? [06:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're live. No problem. Somebody gets the heat stroke. The good dog or the good dog handler, whatever. That might be a good segue for starting on the positive reinforcement and the aspect of what you guys do around the motivation and having an active, not a reactive dog. So I just wanted to hear from you guys on when it comes to different ways before we even get into obedience and how you train, that ignition and motivation that you build in your dogs. [07:23] So people that watch the videos that are on your dog and see how much drive and engagement you get from your dogs. Probably want to know how do you get it? How do you do it with food? How do you do it with play? What's as part of the NAPO system? How do you approach it? How do you approach it? Well, it's interesting because at the school, the first day is positive reinforcement. [07:49] And normally on the first day of school, everyone a little bit has their nose in the air that this is the easy day. I already know this. I already know clicker training. I already know positive reinforcement. And by the end of the day, they are realizing that there's a lot more to it. Then.

[08:17] What they had thought. Yeah. It means that. The question was. Positive reinforcement, which is a good topic. And do we want a sleepy dog or do we want a very pushy bully dog? And there again, it depends in which direction we go. Do we go for a working dog or do we go for the general pet owner? [08:46] That wants to have a calm dog, but on a control. So it means that that positive reinforcement system can be used in two opposite directions. Drive or quite calm. And there it starts. So Michael and I, we like a working dog. And we, in our positive system, we'll use the system to have that, like you said, Ben, that pushy dog, that bully dog, the dog full of gasoline, the dog full of ignition, passion, drive, however you call it. [09:24] By the way, the word drive. Some languages don't have a word for drive. Like in French. In France, they have no word for drive. When people do translations for us, they say. So it's quite amazing to see that. But one thing that's absolutely stays true throughout with pet dogs or working dogs is that we always use existential food. [09:58] We don't give treats. We don't have better food for this. And we may have more. We may have jackpots. We may vary the amount that we give. It's a very interesting topic. And in the school, we always start with Karen Pryor did create a type of revolution in dog training by introducing the clicker from Delphin world in dog world. [10:31] And there, guys like me from the old style, we were like, whoa, what is that lady telling us? And in the beginning, you are very opposite to things you don't know. You are against things that are not part of your vocabulary. Me, I did read that book from in the beginning, Don't Shoot a Dog. [10:57] And what's very interesting to see in that book is that, first of all, the delphin lives in that delphinarium, which is a little jail with nothing in the water. So it's sterile. And that dolphin must eat. [11:23] And the only food that that delphin can get is over the hands of the animal trainer, in this case, the delphin trainer. So there is dependency for receiving existential food over the person. So there it starts. It's not dessert training. It's like Michael said, it's existential food. [11:48] So there is a budget. For example, I just say something, 10 kilos of fish. And if the 10 kilos are gone, there is no more reward possibility. So there is a budget. And the budget is enough to survive and enough to do well. Then there is another thing that is very important in delphin training. The food is given after you give the marker, the clicker.

[12:16] Click comes and then food comes immediately. Click, food, click, food, click, food. Important is that there is a little time collapse between the click and giving the fish. When we call that charging the clicker. Question is, when is my clicker charged so I can start training? [12:44] Most people don't charge the clicker. They go immediately to training with a non-charged clicker. And that's where it already goes wrong. So the first part, if you want to use the clicker, is charge the clicker. With dynamite. Yes. Well, if you want the working dog like we want, the clicker must be exciting. It must be an announcement of, aha, we're going to do something. And when is the clicker charged with dynamite? [13:12] When you can recall your delphin. When you can recall your dog with the clicker. Where's my dog? You don't see the dog. You click and it comes to you. Then you know the clicker is charged. Now you can start your training. And in delphin training. We don't go over the luring. It's impossible to lure a delphin. You never see that. [13:38] And there is no room service neither. You never see a delphin trainer that put the fish in the mouth and then swim in the water and then give it in the mouth of the delphin. And there is not one delphin trainer that takes a nail and nails the fish in the wall. What we do with dog training, a type of lure. So luring comes out of the old dog training. [14:07] And luring, there is nothing wrong to luring. Because luring can only work if the dog is attracted by the lure. And in indirect reward, it can only work with delphin training, with click release, if the clicker is charged. And there we said already the big controversial words. Direct reward versus indirect reward. [14:34] Lately, Michael and I for three months on purpose put little videos and then ask people, is it direct reward or indirect reward? Direct reward or indirect reward? And there we see so many answers that we think what's going on in dog world. And it's not that other people are wrong, but they use another definition for direct or indirect reward. So in the world, it's very important that we do agree on definitions. [15:03] And when we have the same definition for the same word, then we can have an adult conversation without smashing on each other's face. But I have to interject here in the book, Don't Shoot the Dog. Karen Pryor refers to negative reinforcement always throughout the book, hundreds of times as an aversive.

[15:32] So there starts already a big problem because the definition of aversive is causing strong dislike or disinclination, which is the opposite of what a negative reinforcer is. And I know that's for the next day, but since we're talking about don't shoot the dog and definitions, I think that's an important point. Another very important point in the book, Don't Shoot the Dog, is that in dolphin training, what goes in the mouth, the nice thing that goes in the mouth of the dolphin must take the discomfort of the hunger pain. [16:15] Taking away discomfort is the definition by excess from negative reinforcement. That means that good positive training with food is based on negative reinforcement. Taking the discomfort away from the hunger pain by putting something in the mouth. And that's why it works well. It's a very natural system. [16:41] But that controversial between direct and indirect reward, it is so big, you cannot believe. That's why Michael and I, when we speak about those things, we speak about the definition that we use so that our students have the same definition that they will use so that we can have an adult conversation between us, which is very important. [17:07] We never say that other people are wrong. We just say they have another filling in of the definition. And there it starts. So, as from profession, I was a sport teacher. In sport, for example, soccer, we use the same terminology worldwide. There is no other filling in from a definition. [17:34] Basketball, the same. The rules are worldwide the same. They speak the same vocabulary. In dog world, we see that every region has his word or their word for a pinch collar, a choke collar. It has 20 different names. And it makes it so complicated. You cannot believe. For Michael and me, direct reward and indirect reward. It's crucial to define it. [18:01] For us, a reward must attract the dog. That means that the reward must be the point of interest. Imagine that my food that I have in my hand, my food is the point of interest. I want my dog to look to the food. When the dog is looking to the food and gets the food, that's what we call direct reward. [18:28] Indirect reward is when there is the reward that does interest the dog. But the dog looks to Michael to get the food. That's what we call indirect reward. There is a bridge in between. And a good way to explain it, the lure versus the shaping, is that in luring, which is based on direct reward,

[18:55] the reward, the money, makes the behavior. In indirect reward, the behavior makes the money come. And these are easy ways to understand it. And however you do, at a certain point, example, I was a world champ luring in the old days. Luring means you have the attraction in your hand or on your armpit or whatever, [19:25] and the dog looks to it, the dog receives it. The dog is obedient to the lure. It's a fact. Then comes a moment, repetition, repetition, repetition, you do nothing. And now the dog starts to anticipate on your lure and the dog goes in the behavior, for example, healing. Now I install the lure and I give it. That's what must happen. That means that in whatever system you work, a dog understands the exercise if anticipation starts. [19:59] And you must reward that anticipation. And most people fight against that anticipation. And when you reward that anticipation, now you have the active dog. That part there, Bart, that part there, I think, to me, is one of the biggest differences between NAPO PO, the use of positive reinforcement, compared to other systems. Is that, and you can see it in your videos, you're basically looking for the dog to anticipate. [20:30] And when he starts to anticipate, you're meeting him there with the lure that was creating it initially. Is that right? Yes. And that's where all that power comes from, hey? Yeah. Then they start to think they're creating it. Yes. Yes. Yes. So there is two ways to go to Rome. You can go over the lure. And then comes the moment that the dog will anticipate. And that's what you want. [20:56] You must catch the anticipation. And in indirect reward, it's the same thing. And the dog will, before you start the shaping games, the dog is already doing that behavior. You must go with the flow. If you fight the water, you will sink in the water. You must go with the flow. And when the dog is in the flow, you go with it. And of course, you must be strong enough to also stop that, because they start to be very bully. [21:24] Go with the flow. Well, there again, it depends in which direction you want to go. Michael and I, we want working dogs. And working dogs is based on heart and soul in the work. And of course, you create little junkies that are very bully. It's like, I think, five or six days ago, we posed that picture of the cat, the old lady with the cat. And she's trying to be nice for the cat.

[21:49] And the cat is scratching in her face and biting her. And the old lady is still staying nice. That's typically what we call Alibaba behavior. The little animal that can so bully that later even spanking is not spanking. She did a little bit spank. She did a little bit spank the cat. And then she... So when is a spank a spank? When is an activator? [22:15] When is a punishment the punishment? And so on and so on. But we go back to our positive reinforcement. I'm going to tell you something. Years ago, it's long ago, I think more than 20 years ago. I gave a seminar together with Gerald Scheirer. Austrian guy that is now the IGP judge. He was one of the top and master trainers at the Wiener Polizei, at the police of Vienna. [22:49] And in those days, I think Gerald was one or two times world champ IGP. And we do a seminar together. In Vienna. And Gerald is with his dog. Gerald is with his dog. Speaking for the crowd. And shows the direct reward. And he has food in his hand. And he says, and that's direct reward. And he gives the food. [23:15] And that's direct reward. And he gives the food. And then the dog looks to the food. And then you extend the seconds. And then you go for duration. And he was going for duration. So the dog must stay in the behavior, stay in the behavior, stay in the behavior. And then while Gerald was speaking to the public, the dog looked to Gerald. And he said, hey. You're taking time. [23:41] And Gerald did not see that. And he gives food. And there for me was, whoa. This is indirect reward. This was for me one of the biggest aha moments in my life. Because in those days we did not use the word indirect reward. We did not understand it. It was a no go. Everything was based on direct reward. And that for me was like, boom. It was like lightning without thunderstorm. [24:09] It was unbelievable. So what I mean is sometimes little things are the best teachers. But you must be ready to catch it. You know what Michael and I always see? That people work the whole day. And then they are very excited to go train. They are gung-ho to go train with the dog. And then they take the dog. [24:35] But the dog is not gung-ho to train with them. The dog is not charged. Food enough. Love enough. Perfect kennel condition. The dog lives in the best condition in the world. So and then it means there is no gasoline in the car. And then those people have to push 10 miles their car. Because they like to train two hours long. Because they are full of desire. And they don't see that they are pushing the dog.

[25:02] And there everything goes wrong. We call that active dog trainer sleeping dog. We like gasoline in the car. And we don't start training before we have gasoline. And the gasoline that we like must be explosive. An example. We just did receive back a dog that was prepared by Michael. And when Michael gave that dog away, that Black Shepherd that I work now, that dog had a food drive. [25:33] You cannot believe. That dog had passion. You cannot believe. He was gung-ho in every exercise. He came back one year later. What do we see? That the dog is a sleeping bag. Sleeping bag means he has been trained the opposite way. What did happen? He eats like a pig. But the food was given one piece, one piece, one piece, one piece. We call that the communistic reward. [25:59] And the dog became very, we call it in social welfare. And whatever I do, I receive my reward. But hey, I was thinking, this is not the same dog. So now, four months later, he's gung-ho again on food. Prey drive. He was crazy on prey drive. There again, he's not the same dog anymore. [26:25] And we know how to train dogs, believe me. But the people that take over the dog, they don't do it on purpose. But they like to train. And they don't see that they make a sleeping carpet. So how did you... Sorry. Sorry for interrupting you. How did you fix it? By not fixing nothing. Well, I did put food. [26:52] We have a special kennel set up. And our kennel set up is, there is a kennel with, at the inside, they can go at the inside sleeping crate. And that's open. And at the inside, we can go via another door to the inside. And there is a door we can take them out and in. That means that when we have young dogs, we always put them in via the backside. [27:17] That they don't see you going away when you close the door. So there is never, we never have dogs that are whining when we go away because they don't see it going away. And when we put food there, we close that little door. And at the kennel, at the front side, we never touch them. We never speak to them. There is nothing. So there is no hope from the front. So we don't give them the habituation. Oh, you're good. We open the door.

[27:43] When they want to come out, they go into their inside and they stand at the inside. And they say, are they coming? We should make a video about that because there it starts. We're getting a puppy, so we'll show it. Yeah. Yeah. So, and then we never let them out from the front side. That only comes later when there is no whining and yapping and no anxious and bababee and babababa. So, and then the kennel goes open and they look to her. [28:11] They even don't know what to do with that in the beginning. But that's how we start. So I did put, I know exactly, two cups of food at the inside from his crates because another thing he was used was to walk around for three hours, to pee one second on that tree, to make a temptation to poo on the grass. I cannot stand that. Pee means pee, poo means poo, and now we start working. [28:39] I don't like to walk a dog for two, three hours until the animal does his pee and his poo and chase every rabbit and every hare and every squirrel. And every squirrel because he was specialized in that when he came back. I said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That means that the distraction is stronger than the motivation. Now I walk around with him. I even don't call him. He must come to me, spontaneous, and then I give a little bit food. [29:07] I don't call him. He must come to me. If he doesn't come to me, no food. Believe me, he comes to me. And we also changed a little bit the type of food he gets. Yes. And the amount, yeah. And then because Mr. Marco did not like to pee and poo on command, he liked to fuck around for three hours. I said, my friend, you're going to pee and poo on my terms. [29:33] So I gave him one minute to pee and poo. And I see when they pee. And I see when they poo. When it's not enough, he goes back to his sky canal. One hour later up, if I'm happy, then he can go back in his canal and find food. So he likes to go back to the kennel because the food is there. The whole jackpot is there. And after a while, he did understand very well, the faster I pee, enough. And the faster I poo, enough. [29:59] Then I can go back to my kennel and find the jackpot. So it took about one month before I did figure out that. And once he figured that out, then I diminished the jackpot that I have food for other exercises. The problem is there is so much destroyed in that animal, destroyed for us, that we don't know where to put the money. So it means that for Michael and me, we observe the dog.

[30:25] That dog has a natural talent for sniffing. He's so good, you cannot believe. But I don't dare to start in a direction. Because if we train two times on coffee, oh, the dog is already trained on coffee. He's going to mark all his life on coffee. So we are very, or like a lot of people do on the Kong. And you hide the little rubber. [30:50] But every dog that is trained on the Kong will mark rubber. So it means that we don't dare to start. But that dog is so good, you cannot believe. Sniffing is his thing. And that's the future of that dog. And maybe one of these days, Michael and I are going to speak with the breed and say, hey, that dog has a nice future for the sniff work. [31:15] And there, nothing has been done wrong. So that's, for me, the unwritten page. All the other stuff, it's contradictionary. We see that on the behavior of the dog. So there has been too much other languages told to that dog. And it will be hard to prepare that dog in short time for the top games. He was ready for that. [31:41] Now, not anymore. But the virgin pages, the sniffing work, I do the test. For example, I remember with Michael, we were giving a seminar in, what was it? Jeff Zimmerlis. In Tennessee. And in Tennessee, it's very hot. And there is a lot of fire ends. Like in Australia. So you cannot put food on track half an hour before like a lot of Europeans do. [32:08] And there we did see for the first time what we call the Chicken George tracking. What is Chicken George tracking? You walk backwards like Michael Jackson. You walk backwards. And under your feet, you put the food. And you let your dog come. We call that the Michael Jackson move, the Chicken George. Yeah. And we did see that from Maurice Cheson. Yeah. [32:33] I do that now. And then with that dog, just to test him. He reacts. Boom, boom, boom. You cannot believe. So that dog is born for track. And then he doesn't see rabbits. He doesn't see hair. He doesn't see the Amish horses passing by. He's very concentrated. And, you know, when your dog is distracted, it means that there is no concentration enough. [32:59] And that's why the first exercise, what Michael and I like to do, is the box. That box where the dog put the head in. That's the only thing we do there. It's toughness training, concentration training, distraction training. When the dog comes out that box, when there is still food in, it means he's not hungry enough. Hungry, not hungry. Hungry. Hungry is the combination of hunger and angry. The good working mode with food is hangriness.

[33:25] Hey, 30 years ago, even 20 years ago, if you saw interviews with me, training with food, that was for sissies. Training with food, that's for people that cannot train dogs. Come on. Real dog trainers don't need food. In the meantime, due to the influence of my wife also, we did change because our job is not only to train the best selected dogs and to put the other spoon aside. [33:55] Our job is to try to train all the dogs. And if you train a dog in prey drive, you need a fantastic prey drive dog. And if you train a dog in prey drive, the correction is not giving the reward. And I have to say, with prey drive and food drive, and every drive needs to be at the maximum that you can make it. [34:21] For Jack, she didn't have the best food drive. And she didn't have prey drive. But I spent a month just training prey drive. And now it's through the roof. It's fantastic. So, but you have to take some time to build those foundations that you need to work with. And people say, oh, I don't want to give up all the things I could train in a month and just work on playing with a ball. [34:52] But that's what I did. It's very important what Michael says here. So, as you know, we sell the dog trophy, the ball dropper. And people write us an email, my dog has no prey drive. I should like to buy a ball dropper. And I would say, well, if your dog has no prey drive, the ball dropper will not make your dog play. You can only use the ball dropper if your dog has prey on the dead invisible toy. [35:23] Dead and invisible. We call it prey on dead rabbit. Dead and if it's one of the first tests we do when people come to the school, hands on dogs, we do the visual test. What is the situation? The first test we do, environment. If a dog is afraid of environment, sorry that I said, but you don't. So, a dog that is environmental weak, whatever you do, it's a problem. [35:52] And that's why that's so important. It's important. It's huge for puppies, not teaching the monkey drills, but environmentally making them environmentally solid. Yes. And then, so the environmental is the first thing. The second thing is, what is the food drive of the dog? And then we use food drive presented. [36:17] How is the dog reacting on the lure? How is he reacting when there is no lure? Can he think? Can he do indirect reward? We try all this. And then the next thing is, if we know about the food drive, the next thing we do is, how is he on prey drive? And then we ask people, throw the ball and let the dog go. We call that play on the rabbit that is alive.

[36:45] Second test is, throw it away. Wait until the ball or the toy is not moving. One second, two seconds, three seconds, let the dog go. For a lot of dogs, that already is, whoa, I'm not interested anymore. The rabbit is not moving. And then the last test is, throw your ball, not too far. And then we put a box over it so that the dog cannot see the ball. [37:11] How strong is the passion from the dog to get that ball that is invisible? And there you see everything. And these are stuff that Michael and I, we prepare our dogs on all these little things. And for us, it's also important not just that they like a ball and a tug and a sleeve, but you must be able to give them a piece of paper. They're excited about a piece of paper. They're excited about this little... Different toys. Yeah. We only have a pen. [37:38] They're my lipstick. Whatever you give them, they must love it. And they must be able to play with it, fetch it, carry it around like their trophy. A lot of people that have problematic prey drive is they have one ball and they clean the ball and they wash it. The special one. And they sterilize it. The purple one that the squeaker broke and it has a hole on the left-hand side. [38:05] And the dog only likes that ball. Well, our experience is the dog trainers fuck up everything. So one day that ball will be fucked up and then there is no more prey drive. So there you are. Right. We see dogs biting very well on an orange sleeve. And then if you give a normal sleeve, it doesn't bite anymore. What the heck is that? By the way, about sleeves, I think three months ago, I was trying to buy a jute sleeve to put [38:33] over. I like a hard wedge. The triangle with two hands. I like that. Within the middle of grip. I went over all the websites. I did find orange, pink, whatever, but not one good wedge like I wanted. I had to call an old friend and say, hey, Frank, do you still have sleeves for that old wedge? Yes, Bart. How much do you need? Are you kidding me? So the whole business now is based on dogs that cannot bite anymore. [39:02] It's based on what you like. Are you kidding me? But that's the thing. If you take away all, if you take away the toys from Jack, she'll go to the woodpile and take a log from our, for our fireplace. Yeah. And now to go back to our direct and indirect reward. That is so important. You cannot believe. So there is a moment, of course, that we learn. And there is a moment that we let the dog anticipate.

[39:28] And then the lure comes again. And we try indirect reward. And then we figure out some exercises will go over direct reward, some over indirect reward. Fact is, whatever you use, it's about the anticipation that you must catch. What you must know is if you work with the lure and you lure 10 exercises. We call that you burn a CD-ROM of 10 exercises. [39:56] And then one day you don't lure and the dog is in a working mood and he starts anticipation. He does the first lure. No money comes. The second lure. No money comes. The dog will be active. The problem is all activity of the dog will be restricted to the 10 exercises that you did lure, that you did burn in the CD-ROM. Whereas if you go over shaping, and of course you have your little shaping things, [40:26] those dogs dare to do other exercises, other things, other behaviors. And that's why we... With heart and soul. With heart and soul. And that's why we do believe very much in that dog that does dare to do different things. And at the end, you come in Rome with an active, creative dog. Perfect. Whatever the system you use. But we like people to use whatever works well. [40:56] And, you know, Michael and I, by teaching, every school we adapt. Because when we teach a little bit too much in one direction, we see that the students go too much in that direction. And they forget the opposite direction. So the more we teach, the more we try to be really... We've just gotten very good. We're stopping. Well, yeah. [41:26] If you must be so careful how you explain things because people take you words 100% and take it like a religion. They did it. They did it. They did it. They did it. Or, let's say more. We are quite complete in our explanations. But people are very selective in what they catch. And there is a good sentence of an American politician that says, I can only be responsible for what I say. [41:55] I cannot be responsible for what you comprehend. We have guys that go home and we call that the technocrats, very intelligent people. And they start thinking that everything is just zapping level one or zapping level five until the dog does. And we say, well, we did speak 1%. 99% they did not catch that 1% is just pushing and pressing the buttons. [42:23] But the topic was here, positive reinforcement. So, we should go back to the positive reinforcement, which is a powerful system. What we do see is that people, when they use positive reinforcement, they only use the reward of positive reinforcement. Whereas, in positive reinforcement, there is also consequences for not doing.

[42:48] There is a correction in positive reinforcement. The negative correction. And the negative correction is stop the game. Close the restaurant and put the dog away, please, for longer than one second. One second is not a strong consequence. Keep your desire of training dogs away. Put your dog away for at least a few hours and then give the dog a second chance. [43:17] That correction of this system, which in etology they call the negative correction, is an immediate correction. But with the delayed effectiveness. And dogs that go three, four times over that correction is very powerful. But people don't use it. So what we do see is that people in positive reinforcement only use the rewards of positive reinforcement, never the correction. [43:47] And then by going to the correction, they buy the e-call or the pinch call or whatever, and then they do popone. And the dog is not used to take that correction and switch it around in behavior. That's the big problem. And of course, if good dog trainers do popone, it will work because good dog trainers have good dogs. That 75% normal dogs are already out, selected out. [44:16] So they have that unicorn that takes that popone. But most dogs don't take popone. And that's why the positive reinforcement system is not only advertising you do, I give. It is also you don't do, we stop the game, and you have no more reward possibilities for a few hours. And that's a very natural consequence. [44:43] And that's why Karen Pryor says in her book, when you're free shaping, never free shape more than 50% of your meal. Because if you free shaped 99% and then you don't give that one last kibble, it's not a very strong punishment. It's not a strong negative punishment. [45:09] And that's powerful. That's why in the beginning, it's very nice to give jackpot. So it means that... It's powerful when you give it, and it's powerful when you take it away. Then about positive reinforcement, one of the best studies ever done is that jackpot dopamine from Professor Sapolsky, from that Californian university. [45:35] So they did do the test, what is the most rewarding for the dog? The cue that announces we're going to start. Is it the behavior? Or is it the predictable reward? The one banana. And then the big question is, how do we measure happiness in animals? So it's very well explained.

[46:00] And there, if you use the predictable communistic reward, the key, the cue where you start with is the most exciting. Not the work and not the reward. Because at reward, there was zero happiness, zero dopamine. Because happiness you can measure on dopamine. And, you know, these are things that Michael and I did see over the years. [46:29] People that always reward and always reward and always reward and reward every second, they have lazy dogs. And people that randomly reward and are very, how should I say, cheap in rewarding, they always have the excited dogs. So that we did see. But we did not know exactly why. Especially for me, it was an eye catcher you cannot believe. So for me personally, that study was the proof why. [46:58] Because we did see it, but we did not know why. It's very interesting. So Jackpot Dopamine, for everybody listening, you must watch. It's about 10 minutes. Five minutes. Five minutes. It's a YouTube video in English from a guy with a very long beard. And it's quite interesting. He will catch you with his explanation. So that means that if you lure a dog with food or if you use the clicker indirect reward, [47:30] both must create dopamine. If they don't give dopamine in both systems, they will not work. You need that excitement. And if you see people luring with food, that's typically. If you see them luring with food, ears up and tail down, we call that active submission. That dog is not making dopamine. It is not. [47:55] Not. So that means that, yes, you train in positive reward, but you don't have the body language that you want to see. And it's not because you think that it's a good system for your dog, that your dog has the same interpretation from your system. And you see what I mean? So there, a lot of times we have that picture on the school or in the seminars in the past. [48:21] And we say to people, take away the money. Take it away. And when the dog is happy, then you click. And then you give. And very fast, you see another dog. So it's not because you are in positive training that it means it's good for your dog. Right. And a lot of people feel like my dog is good. I must give the reward. I must say good. I must say good. And they make them flatter and flatter and flatter. One of our preferred videos is where I am doing the A-frame, the palisade with that crazy Viking Ragnar.

[48:55] Yeah. The handborder. Yes. So the whole philosophy behind that video is, hey, he likes to be slapped. He likes to be pushed out of the pack. That's his biggest reward. The little fight he can have. And when you were working with Ragnar, and when he was in full passion, you had to accept now and then a little nip. He was living from that. [49:21] And then when he was nipping you, you slapped him a little bit. He loved that cat and mouse game. And that's positive reinforcement for him. Of course. Of course. Of course. That means that being part of you. And he was falling asleep on food. And he had crazy food drive, but he did not like to work for it. And he had crazy prey drive, but he did not like the reward of that. He did not like it. [49:47] It was not his thing. His thing was the body fight. Yes. And of course, if you trained Ragnar in the highest level. He was always bleeding after. I was always bleeding. After training him. It was just a little nipping. He loved me because I said, what the fuck again? And dogs do smell that. They smell that. Hey, Bart is excited. And Bart is like the. [50:13] His adrenaline is going up. Yay. Now he was happy. So that's also dog training. And that is training a dog with the tools that you have in competition with you. You have yourself with you. That's also very strong. So what we do see also a lot of time with positive reinforcement, with ball or reward, it becomes too much about the money. [50:38] It is not about the behaviors. It's not about. It's, you know, it's very complicated to explain things. In the beginning, sit means sit. Down means down. Barking is barking. Biting is biting. Out is out. Healing is healing. The more you know about dog training, the more you are disappointed about a normal sit, a normal down. There is no passion. You miss something. [51:04] So the more you know about dog training, the more you will understand all the things that we explain here, you know. And to go back to Ragnar just for a second, finding what was his motivation, finding a reinforcer that worked well for him, took time. Because it's a little bit out of the ordinary that he liked to be kicked or slapped. Or he liked to, you let him bang you.

[51:34] I remember as a young dog, he always came with us to the factory. And in the factory, there is ladders to go to the shelves. What he loved to do was climbing those ladders because he had the control over us because we took him away from the ladder. And he went again and we took him. He was crazy about it. The biggest reward was put a ladder there and he will do crazy shit to go on that ladder. We had a rule. [51:59] All the ladders had to be flat on the ground. He was crazy. He cannot believe it. And why did he love that ladder? Because he did control us to take him down. To chase him around. Yeah. That's why dogs steal the shoes in the house. My dog has no prey drive, no ball drive until he comes home and it steals every shoe. And there's a very important point that Bart makes. It's a little bit. [52:24] Yes. Well, the treating, how do we train the dog to love our slippers? Yeah. Chasing him. By chasing him. So a lot of times we do just that. When Jack first got the dumbbell, I chased her like I didn't want her to have it. Don't bring it. No. No. I chase her. She runs with it. Let them be the boss, you know. [52:51] And, you know, a lady that told me a lot about dog training and Michael is our daughter Ines. Ines is size wise a small little lady. And she's a little bit phlegmatic. Phlegmatic means, well, she's not very, how should I say, careful. [53:16] For example, if I throw a ball, I want to see where the ball is falling, what the dog is doing. She doesn't care. She throws that thing. And I remember one day she went with her little springer spaniel in the woods with a ball and a guitar. I said, that I want to see. So I follow. And then she's throwing the ball a few times. And then the dog, like a crazy maniac, was getting the ball and bringing it back. And then at a certain point, she throws the ball. [53:42] She doesn't see where it lands. The ball was in a tree, hanging in a tree. And then she takes a guitar and she starts playing. The dog was looking to that ball. And I was thinking, what is she doing? And then after the song, she calls the dog. And of course, he's not coming. And then she's mad. She's going to grab him. You must come and I call you. It was my daughter catching that ball. No. She went home. I was looking like, huh?

[54:08] Next time, the next day, I said, I'm going to follow my daughter. And then she went back to the place and she was looking for the ball. And the dog was showing her where the ball was. And then she took the balls and drops it. And I was thinking, my God, she does nothing. And the dog has to do everything. That's the trick. That is the trick. And if I try to copy that, I cannot. Because the dog looks to me like, you chinkish cheater. [54:35] You are cheating. I try to do everything that she does by nature. There is people that have that little hand to make dogs so strong, you cannot believe. They have that little. They don't do it on purpose. They have it. People who brought up Gunther's dog. That's the same thing. The same thing. There's some pet people who would be great to hire, to raise working dog puppies. [55:03] Because they're totally out of control, but the perfect kind of out of control that we want. Yeah. Super strong. And they do it by accident. So you have to think, what do they do? And then try to do that. You know, when we start, actually, the Népropo Gold Schools, we always start with the accident. [55:29] Why is a dog bringing a stainless steel football towards you in the house without chewing, with eyes burning like cigarettes, ears up when they have those pointing ears, and the tail waggling? Why is a dog doing that so well? Well, because by accident, the dog did do it. And by accident, you did involuntary reward it, involuntary, and it became a bully behavior. [55:58] Later, you go to your sport, and you throw the dumbbell away, and you say, bring. And then that same dog does not like to bring the dumbbell, the ears down, chewing on that piece of wood. What do we do wrong? By nature, they can do it perfect on stainless steel if there is no command. And when you make them do, it looks like shit. [56:23] What do we do wrong? Another example. You walk your dog on a leash, wherever, and then there is something smelling on the ground, and the dog loves it, and he stays there. And he smells. You hear him. You hear that, eh? And then you call the dog. He's not coming. He's continuous smelling. You, hey, what the fuck? You come here. He doesn't come. He's not offended at all.

[56:49] He even doesn't hear you. And then you start to be more brutal. You kick his ass, and still his nose on the ground. And now you kick him harder, and he avoids your kick, but still the nose on the ground. It's nine hours. That dog loves to smell, and nobody was rewarding that dog. Nobody. The smell, the scent is the reward. Now we go to an IGP track or man trailing track where, with our human fantasy, we try to reward the dog in every print and whatever, and the dog is looking to the birds. [57:22] Please help me. There is food for free. The dog that loves a scent on the ground. For no reward. For no reward. But 10 minutes later, in a similar situation, looks like, huh? Me? Using my nose? Me no comprender. I don't understand you, and I don't like this. So our approach of Michael and me is, why can a dog do so good by accident? [57:51] And when we want to make that behavior on command, why is a dog not liking it? That's why you must understand classic conditioning, operant conditioning. In this case, when the dog, by accident, takes that stainless steel football, which you did reward by accident, you must make a aquarium so that you can create the accident. [58:17] You know, you can manipulate the accident to come. And of course, your dog will do that accident. And there you must react on that accident. And it's deadly when you speak when there's problems. So you must speak when everything is like you hear the chorus of the hallelujah. Hey, Ben and Ben. That's when you speak. We like to keep one hour. [58:44] Otherwise, we are boring. It means that Michael and I, we're going to stop. Michael and I, we're going to stop teaching ne popo. We're going to pull back slowly. That means that what we learned is you cannot stop like that. Michael and I, we're going to give continuous silver worldwide. [59:10] At half price sheeding. But we're going to call it something else. For big rooms. And the existence, the existing gold people will do the gold hands on dogs and the graduations and everything. We will tell the whole world when the time is right for this. But the details are important. The details, we must work it out. And all the gold students in the whole world. Because every day we receive 10 emails at least. [59:38] Please, please, please. When can I come? So there is a moment where people want to come. It means that we did create something that is a point of interest. But we are all to continue. And we want slowly to prepare the gold people to take over. Slowly. And there, a lot of you guys will try to give gold and will fail.

[60:05] And some of you guys will survive. And there, we believe in natural selection. We believe in the trial and error. Our first seminars was one to one. Then one to two. You cannot start for full crowd. You know, the first big seminar in my life was 3,000 people. I'll never forget it. I did give three seminars for five, six crazy people. [60:34] Helmut Kooning, Helmut Reiser, Uwe Heis, Engelbert Uppus, and a few other people. And then I think after the third one, Helmut Reiser says to me, Bart, do you want to speak for the German Shepherd? And I said, of course, because I dare. It will be in Germany. He said, I said, no problem. I cannot speak German very well in those days. [61:03] And then I had to speak at the last position. The king, Helmut Reiser, was speaking. And I had to speak in the last position. Helmut in those days was the Rolling Stones. And if you had the music band that must play behind the Rolling Stones. Everybody leaves normally. You see, it's over. So they didn't put me in the last. We call that the last position, which is the difficult position. [61:30] And then, of course, I had the luck of my life that I was good. And that's where my career started. But imagine that the door is open, I say, 3,000 people. When you fail there, it's over forever. So a lot of you guys will suffer in the beginning. But you must go slow. One person, three people, five people. [61:57] Don't go too much for too much people. You're not ready for that. So it comes slowly. And then one day you're ready. And some people, after one goal, they will say, I will never do this again. Because they did kill me. It is not easy entertaining people. Because it's not making them laughing. It's entertaining them with dog training. They must have results. [62:24] You must catch them for eight hours a day. It's a job. And you are dead in the evening. So Michael and I, after gold school, for one week, we need at least one month to recover. Can you imagine? We had six weeks on a row. One week. One week stop. One week. One week stop. It's just now that Michael and I go sleep around 11 o'clock at night. [62:49] Yeah, we're starting. But before we were like 8 o'clock, we were dead. 7.30. 7.30. So we needed three months to recover from that battle, you know? Anyway. Ben, we like to keep it one hour. Did we discuss everything? Bloody hell no. There is still a whole day to fill in. We have still a lot of questions. Thousands of questions. I would say next time we make, we did have a deal.

[63:16] We catch up next time. Okay? Yeah. Sounds good. Thanks very much for your time, guys. When you announce it, announce it on American time, European time. Because people have no idea what Australian time is. Perth's the most isolated city in the world. And we forget that. We like to make people struggle. Okay. [63:42] There you catch us. That's a good one. Okay. That is a good one. Only the people who really wanted to watch it figure it out. That's right. Ben and Ben, thank you. Thanks, Ben. Thank you for your time. Be safe. Okay. Be safe. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Cephas. Thank you. Interview Kaizen K9 10 July 2022 10 July 2022 - Kaizen K9 - Conversation with The Bellons.