에피소드 6: Roger Abrantes

Portuguese. Okay, okay. And my family, my ancestors came from Macau. So I'm also a little bit Asian. Interesting. So I am, I'm really, I used to say I'm a citizen of the world. That's, that's how we should be. All of us. Macau. The last time I was there was two years ago. And so where do you reside right now? Are you in Portugal or do you go back and forth? I go back and forth between Portugal and Denmark right now. Yeah. Well, right now we have the COVID, so it's a little bit more difficult to travel. But I really, you know, spend a half time in Portugal, half time in Denmark. So before we get into some deep, serious conversations in some rabbit hole, how did you get involved with dogs specifically? Like, was that your first thing that you went into the science or how did all happen? It was very accidental. Like I think most things in life, or at least in my life, I was a student of, I had finished my studies in philosophy and I was a study of biology and I was interested in, in having more hands-on, you know, understanding of, of behavior, of, of animal behavior, of learning. And, you know, the easiest of the time for me, and it was to get a dog and then to get two dogs and then beginning experimenting a little bit with them. I remember I went to training and, and, and I, I, after some sessions, I was a little bit unhappy about that because it was nothing of what I expected. Look, I came to it with the, with the students mind. So I, I was expecting them to give me some principles and explanations and there was nothing. Look, we're talking about 1982, 81, 82. So it's a long time ago. So I decided to go home instead and, um, to try to see what I could find to read about it, to learn. There was not much at the time. Now that there is a, I don't know, a zillion books about the training as you know, but there were, there was not much at the time. So, um, I started to, I decided, okay, so let me go to, to the more fundamental and, uh, you know, start learning about, um, I, I was studying biology at the time. Uh, um, so ethology was normal for me, but, but learning theory was not. So I had to make, um, um, my, my own studies in learning, uh, theory. So I started with, uh, everything starting from, uh, Pavlov, Watson, Thorndike, Skinner, you know, everything you can imagine. And then I trained my own dog, uh, myself, um, at the time, uh, a little cocker spaniel, female. And, um, and, uh, I, I went to, you know, I was a member of a club, so I went to the the final, um, um, um, competition day, uh, in, in the club, uh, and, um, participate with my dog.

And, uh, and we, we won, um, uh, and it was a big surprise for, for everybody because they have never seen a cocker spaniel, uh, win a competition, an English cocker spaniel. Do not confuse them with American, please. And, um, and on top of that, uh, uh, you know, a long haired guy with the blue jeans, uh, it was not exactly what they expected. Uh, well, now I don't have any hair, but I had at the time, um, it was not what they, they expected. And, uh, it's how it started because then people came and asked me, how did you do that? Because it was so good. We actually got max points, uh, uh, uh, in that competition, I remember. And, um, and then I just, um, explained what, what, what, uh, I've done. And then people came and asked me, oh, could you, could you please help me with these? And then, yeah, well, yeah, let's meet Saturday afternoon or something like that. So, so that's, uh, basically our, our, how it started thanks to my, um, little cocker spaniel, Petrina. I will never forget her. Interesting. Yeah. And then, you know, one thing brings the other and, uh, suddenly I was involved in, um, training animals, which I never thought that, that I would, um, I would do, I continued my studies, of course, and my main interest is not training at all. Um, actually when people ask me and sometimes I say, it's gonna come as a surprise for you, but actually I don't even, I don't like so much to train animals, uh, because, you know, I've been doing it all my life. I said, what I like in it is I like to understand the animal. I like to interact with animals that fascinates me. And I like to see how I can change the animal behavior, but also how the animal changes my behavior because it's, it's a feedback. It's a feedback loop constantly going forth and back. So it's how it started, you know, and then, uh, from, from dogs, I went into horses and, uh, cats and, uh, you know, rats in Africa, guinea pigs, you know, everything and always learning, always trying to, to become a little less ignorant for every day. Yes. This is, you know, actually this is a very similar story. The only difference, I don't have the PhDs. I did not, I, I really stuck with the dog training, but eventually I, I had a, my first dog that I really started to be like, Oh, this is exciting. There is so much into this. It was a collie. It was, I mean, again, it was back in the eighties and I was back in Bulgaria, the cold war, Russian style military training. And I had this female collie because it was the Lassie era, you know, and, and just like you, I, I, I realized that I have this talent and I went and I won a bunch of

competitions and all of a sudden Bulgaria was just too small and I had to run, I mean, literally escape the communists and go to, to Europe, to Belgium, to, you know, to, to do chase my dreams. And it was much, much later that I, I wanted to know what, why is it working, what I'm doing? And that's how I got into the science. So, so in your case, like, um, but even even, let me just tell you one thing. Uh, don't worry about, you said I don't have a PhD. Well, that's only a piece of paper. Okay. Uh, the knowledge behind it, it's important. The piece of paper, I don't give anything for that. Uh, that's just, uh, uh, you know, a recognition from a group of people. Uh, well, who cares about that? What I care about is the, the, the knowledge and the, the, the open mindness, the self criticism that we have shown, you know, um, so I would say, uh, and the experience of course, you know, how you process. So like, I will just kind of give a little, just a little introduction and then, and then I'll just let you hear it because that that's definitely your specialty, but, uh, like for, for, for the, my audience, the people that don't know, we talk a lot about evolutionary psychology, behaviorism, mythology. Um, and, uh, etology is a, you know, it's, it's really like when, when we decide there, there is this mega question about what drives behavior, right? Is it nature? Is it nurture? Is it inherited? Is it learned? This is always the big topic. And as a dog trainer, depending how you handle this, you can hit a wall and do really dumb things because you're fighting genetics that are programmed not to accept your idea, or you can find a way to guide it. And, and if you know anything about Conrad, uh, Lawrence, Nico Thielenberger, you know, they, these are the, the leading forces that started at, I believe early third, 1930s. And, uh, it, it started almost at the same time with the behaviorism with John Watson and Trondyke and Skinner. And, and so the behaviorism had that idea that we all come out born as a blank slate and then everything is about punishment and reinforcement, no matter what, to where etology really is about, uh, how, um, uh, uh, Nico Thielenberger says, it's the study of, uh, uh, uh, what was the, like to, to, to speak their own language. It's an interview, but you have to speak their own language, meaning you have to observe the animal in its own surroundings in order to understand it. Just like, uh, um, you know, you don't, you don't study a dolphin in a bathtub. And there is a reason

why the horse is born with hooves and, and so on. This is, this is what etology is about, but, uh, there, it's probably the main reason I really wanted to talk to you, um, because, uh, somehow, I don't know why, but we're still, we, meaning the whole dog training community, somehow really, very stuck believing that we can change and do everything through reinforcement and punishment and still go with, uh, uh, the idea that it's, it's so outdated of, of, of Watson saying that there are no instincts. It's, it's amazing how, how this whole, uh, idea goes. And it also surprises me a little bit because, um, um, because there is so much more to it. Yes. And it becomes very dangerous. It really, if we don't understand what comes from the genetic programming versus what is learned as a dog trainer, we can do more damage than good. Yeah. But I can give you an example, uh, of, of, uh, you know, you, you say you don't understand. Well, uh, I think the reason why, uh, you know, the, uh, as you said, reinforcements, uh, punishes, uh, schedules of these and that, and, uh, all that is so popular. It's because, um, it's like, uh, uh, a cookery book recipe, you know, you have the ingredients and, uh, one, do these two, do that three, do that for, for, do that mix everything together, let it cool, serve it, uh, in a certain way. You know, it's, it seems easy. It seems easy. And actually doctrine is, it's not, it's not that easy. And actually doctrines these days, they have a tendency to maybe oversimplify it to a point where they even miss the essence of behaviorism. If that's what they wanted to do. Um, because we have to be, I don't even, I don't even believe they are doing, uh, uh, justice to behaviorism. Behaviorism is much more than, than what they are, um, using, talking about. They mix all the concepts together. Very few people these days know what the reinforcement is or a reinforcer and nobody knows what the punisher is. Um, and they get emotionally involved, uh, uh, uh, and, and then everything goes, uh, haywire, you know, the, the, the, the difference to ethology is, is, is enormous. Of course, uh, even the terms are different. Uh, look in, in, in mythology, for instance, there is no, there are no reinforcers and punishers. There are benefits and costs. And benefits and costs can explain things that, for instance, behaviorism, uh, uh, that, that, uh, reinforcers and punishers cannot. Uh, for instance, um, benefits, uh, uh, uh, long-term, long-term and short-term benefits. You can talk about that,

but you cannot reinforce a behavior like, uh, two hours later or three hours later, you cannot explain, or, or, or, or two years later, you can, you cannot explain that an animal does something now to be reinforced, um, three months later. Um, you cannot, but you can with the, with the concept of, uh, uh, in, in ethology with the, the short-term and long-term benefits. So we're talking about two different approaches. Um, and, and, uh, if you ask me, you know, I, I wrote the, the, my, my, my last book was, is, uh, animal training my way. I called it. And then, then I, I, I, I, I, the subtitle is merging ethology and behaviorism. Because if you ask me, uh, you know, all, all my career, I thought actually it was impossible. I looked at ethology tier behaviorism is there. They are totally, uh, incompatible. But I found out actually that you can, uh, combine the best of the two worlds. My approach is still the approach of ethology. It's a more complex approach, but, uh, it's one that I think also allows us for deeper explanations of, of what's happening and that feedback loop that we were talking about. You know, when I told you, uh, I, I, I, I teach the dog something, the dog teaches me something, I change the behavior of the dog, the dog changes my behavior. And, um, uh, and if we combine that, that approach and, and, and, and, uh, knowing you also spoke about, um, understanding the animal, the behavior of the animal, speaking the language of the animal. Exactly. That is very important. If we combine that with some of the, of the principles of, of behaviorism, and we know how to apply them, then I think we have, uh, um, a good tool, uh, to be able to, um, um, you know, to understand one another. You spoke about the, the language of Daniel, you know, I, I, I'm probably one of the last, uh, alive, uh, students of Professor Lorenz that attended his, uh, lectures in person. And I remember that he used to, to tell us, uh, if you want to understand an animal, you have to become its partner. He said, yes, I have actually, yes. You know, understand the animal in, uh, for its own, what animal is. Uh, and that is the thing that, um, no matter what species I work with, no matter what individual I work with, my first idea is not, uh, I'm going to change your behavior. Uh, you're going to change mine. The first is let's understand one another. Let's see. Do we have a common language? You know, like, um, Oh, okay. This is okay. So let's see if we understand one another. And then we, we take it from there. And, and reason for the motivation and

emotions and how emotions affect like behaviorism, at least the, the, the old school traditional behaviorism really. I mean, I mean, I, I am mind blown still that there's people really, truly believe at least in dog training. And I think there is something to do with social sciences. And I think we're, you and I can perfectly speak our minds about everything. I don't think neither one of us have any breaks, uh, um, when it comes to science and, and call it to what it is. But, uh, uh, I think really social sciences in, in, in, it's, uh, the whole idea of be all you can be and know you're going to work harder. No, you're gonna, you, you have, everybody has equal chance and, and completely disregarding genetic makeup, completely disregarding your instinct and tendencies. I think that ultimately hurt dogs and people. Yeah, sure. You can, you cannot, you, you, you, you can, look, we have the genetics, we have the environment. Now we even discovered that we have something called epigenetics, uh, to complicate things even a bit further, but also to make them more interesting. And, um, of course, all that is, is, we have to take that into, into consideration. Um, there are things that we cannot ask the animals to do because simply they cannot do, you know, um, so, uh, for me, it's, it's right, uh, it's obvious, uh, that, as you said, that we have to study the animal first and to understand the animal before we begin implementing any behavioral changes. But people are impatient. I know from our students, you know, our students at the Ethology Institute, we start by giving them, um, behavior, you know, Ethology, uh, all that. And, and then we give them, um, animal learning, but they are so, um, impatient. They will, no, no, I, I want to train the animal. I want to, to train them. So I always ask them, well, what do you want to do? You want to change the behavior of the animal? That's what you want. No, no, I want to train it. And they say, look, training is changing the behavior, right? Yeah. Well, yes. No, no, no, no. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. So how, how come that you want to change the behavior of someone that you don't even know? You don't even know the animal. And, you know, sometimes, uh, you know, we used to divide them into the, we call them the dog girls and the, the horse girls. We call them girls because 90% of them were girls, you know? So I used to say to the boys, sorry guys, you are honorary girls in this context. And, um, and then, uh, uh, I said, okay, so you are a horse, uh, people and you are dog people. Okay.

So for the first six months of our course here, you horse people, you are, you're going to work with dogs and the other dog people, you're going to work with the horses. Oh, why, why is that? And so on. Uh, that's what you're going to do. No complaining. Uh, and then I promise you one thing, when you go back to your favorite species, you'll be a much better trainer, much better. And, um, they, they, they agreed with me six months later, or they said, wow, I learned so much. Now I can make my dog do these much easier. Now I understand my dog better. And the others too. They said, oh, now I understand my horse better. And then, and then, you know what, Ivan, when they were, when they felt comfortable with horses and, um, and, um, dogs, you know what we did, we gave them cats. And then the misery was complete. That's, that's, uh, that's, I would say an ultimate challenge, right? So, but how, um, I'm, I'm still curious, like how did etology snuck into you? Where, where, where, where, you know, uh, I, I don't know. I, I, I, I evolutionary biology, you know, I came from philosophy. Remember that I came from philosophy. So philosophers, we like to speculate about things, you know, to think about things. So when I found out in, in, in, in, in philosophy, actually, that I needed some, some knowledge about biology, otherwise I wouldn't be able to understand anything of the, of what I was trying to understand. And I, I had a chance and, and, uh, well, I, I finished philosophy, but then I went to biology. Then in biology, what began to interest me most was the, what the evolutionary aspects, of, of, of, of, of, of everything, of life, of, of behavior. And then especially behavior interested me for some reason. I, I, I don't even know why, but it began to interest me. So I specialized, of course, in, in, in, in etology. And I was very lucky because it was a time where we still had the professor Lawrence and Tim Bergen, they were alive. And I had, have, I've had the incredible good colleagues that, that probably, you know, Eric Seaman, Fredy Christian. Yes. I've heard their names. Fred, you and I, we even, uh, uh, lived not so far away from one another. So we very often could, could, could meet and exchange opinions at the time. That's, that's mind blowing. That's just mind blowing. And work with the wolves because Fred, you, um, Freddie and, and his, uh, girlfriend at the time, uh, Brita Rothhausen, I don't know if, if you know the name, they, they got some wolves and, uh, they, they started the wolf park and they

did amazing research there. Yeah. And, and I was on, on, on my, on, on the Ethology Institute, not so far away. Um, you know, like, uh, two hours away by car. Um, I had the, I was doing the research with, um, foxes and the dogs comparing. So we were comparing all the behaviors of, um, of all these animals. I can tell if you want to, I can tell you, uh, uh, um, a very nice experiment with it. I would love to. I would love to. We, we tried to see with the wolves, dogs, and foxes, uh, which kind of reinforcers now to go to the, to the behavioristic, uh, language, uh, they would prefer. And we had, uh, three types of reinforcers. We had the, the, the, the sound reinforcer emitted by us, uh, human, which was a word. We actually used the, the Danish word, which means clever, but it has a good sound. And then we had the mechanical reinforcer, which was not a clicker. It was a whistle, but it's the same actually. So when people come to me these days and say, Oh, I'm very modern. I use a clicker training. The, I say modern, we were using, uh, not the clickers, but we were using whistles in the beginning of the 1980s, you know? Yes. And then the third was food, a food treat. So we tested all, all three with wolves, foxes, and dogs. And some, some, some surprising results. Uh, we, we, we reached some surprising results. For instance, the wolves, their favorite, which, which one do you think it is? Our voice, the whistle or food. Yeah, that's a tough one. I mean, my guess would be for some reason, the voice, just because they would be more in tuned and more observant of their environment. Stick to that one, Ivan. You're right. It was the voice. Yeah. It was the voice. And, um, and the, uh, uh, uh, actually they, they would only accept food. Um, if, um, if they felt accepted by us, if they had built a relationship with us. So the voice was much more important for them. And we, I'm talking about wolf cubs. The, the, the first priority was to establish a relationship to us, to feel accepted, to feel safe. After that, they would accept food. And your, and your voice immediately gives away your emotions, which is what they need. Yeah, exactly. And then they would accept food. And then if we train them with the whistle, there was no problem. Uh, the foxes on the other side, uh, food was definitely number one. Uh, if you don't have food, they, they didn't care so much about our voice. And the, the, the, the, the whistle worked like that. If you, you know, when you condition, you, you, the whistle and food, whistle and food, whistle and food, you make the association,

then you can use the, the whistle. The problem is that, or the clicker, we can talk about the clicker because it's the modern, uh, uh, equipment that you use. Yeah. Um, but if we, if, if you, if you, for, for a short period, uh, stopped pairing the, the, the clicker or, or the whistle with the food, they would disregard the clicker completely. Um, so you really have to maintain the value of the, the, or the, or the, of the clicker or the whistle by often pairing it with food. Yeah. Yeah. It's what we would call high maintenance. Yes. And in the middle, we have the, the, the dogs, the domestic dogs, they were in the middle. So do you think, do you think that the foxes just because they're not as, as social? Yes. Yeah. Something to do. Yeah. That, that, that was our, our, um, informed, uh, uh, guess at, at, at the time. Yeah. And, and we still stick to that. Uh, they, they, they are not, and you see, there comes genetics as you were talking about, but not genetics, like, uh, like in a simple way, we have to think about, about it in evolutionary terms. It's, everything is an adaptation. The fox do not need, we cannot say, oh, so they are not as developed as wolves. No, that is not true. They are as developed as wolves, as dogs, or as humans. They just adapted to, to other circumstances, to other environments. And, and they don't need that because they don't need it. They don't have it. It will be a waste. You know, the dogs were in the middle of the wolf and the fox. They would respond well to, to very well to the, to our voice, uh, reinforcer. They would respond well to food, of course, um, uh, they, they responded better to food than the wolves, if, uh, uh, before the wolves knew us, the cubs knew us, you know, um, and the, and the, the, the clicker, the comparison between them and the foxes was that it, uh, we didn't, uh, need to maintain it, um, as strictly as we did with the foxes. We could, um, uh, once the, it was conditioned as a conditioned reinforcer, we could use it for a long time without having to pair it. This was very interesting because it shows really the differences of, of, uh, of the, the species of the animals and the importance of, uh, evolution of the, the process of adaptation. I'm not talking about adaptation of the individual. I'm talking about adaptation in, in a more, um, uh, general evolutionary sense. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. This is super interesting. So, wow. By the way, um, do you want to hear another nice one? I can listen to him all day long. My, my colleague and friend, um, um, um, Rita Rotterhausen at the time, she said,

it would be interesting to train a wolf to see how it would perform in a police dog test, you know, uh, protect protection work. Um, no sense, um, no sense detection. So she trained the wolf to do that. And she passed actually, she passed the, the, the, the test. And the, I don't know if, if she's still there, but she and the wolf were in the Guinness book of records as the first wolf ever to pass the, uh, police that a police dog test. Amazing. But you know what? Uh, the, the most difficult, um, skill or exercise for the wolf. Can you guess which one was in the protection work? Obedience protection. It was a combination. I tell you what it was. It was the, the, the grabbing the bad guy. You know why? Because it would do, if it would be, um, uh, with, with the, with the British husband, Fred, you, no problem because they knew one another, they were mates, you know, but a stranger wearing that strange sleeve there, you don't go there and bite the stranger for fun. Yes. You're smart enough. If you are a wolf not to get yourself vision, you know, or biting, you know, I don't bite the strange because if I bite the strange, I only bite the strange for two reasons. Either I want to kill him or her or get rid of them forever or because I want to eat them. That's the only two reasons to do it. And the wolf looked at the poor guy there with the sleeve, you know, and say, I don't know that guy. I cannot do that. There is another reason for, to bite, which is not real bite and it's play, play behavior, social behavior. And that's why that wolf had no problem in biting, uh, Freddy, uh, because Freddy was a mate, was a friend. You know, I'm using mate now in the European term, not American term. Okay. I hope that our listeners don't, uh, are not implying that I'm talking about making, in, in, in, in a sexual, uh, term. And I, if you're at for the, for the, for the listeners, if you read my books, I distinguish between mate and alien. A mate is someone, uh, your, your, um, survivor depends on and alien is someone that your survivor does not depend on. It has nothing to do with, um, with the sexual behavior. I even used to say quite the contrary. Um, you don't need to mate your mate to be a mate. Um, it's, um, um, you know, just a teammate in the sense of team. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, and, and, and that, that, that was the reason why the wolf would not go and bite the complete, uh, stranger because it's not a play. And, um, there's no reason to bite the stranger that I don't know. Yeah. And I, obviously I cannot eat, eat him. So I'm not going

to do that. That was the most difficult, you know, all the other things that you have to do, the jumps and the, what, um, it was called obedience at the time. That was no problem for the wolf to do. Sometimes in those studies, uh, and it's, um, I wish somehow we can do a little bit more of a broader, you know, study different, not, not just, uh, one pack or one close families of wolves, but, um, I mean, we know all, all of them, even, you know, comparing the European to, to some other parts of the world wolves, they, they, they're still wolves, but they still have their own niche and, and, and, um, but it's difficult. I think it's very difficult to do studies like this to where, what do you do afterwards? You, you take the wolf and you do all the studies and, and then what do you do with it? Right. That is the problem. And that's one of the reasons why, um, um, Fredio and Brita got stuck with so many wolves in there and started the wolf park, uh, because they had them. And actually I can tell you that most of them, they got them, uh, at the time there is a, there is a story there too. There was a, uh, a movie being, being, uh, shot, uh, and, and they used some, some wolves from, from Poland and they finished the movie and, uh, they didn't know what to do with the wolves. They even, uh, speculated whether they should kill them, uh, you know, and then Fred and Brita got in and said, no, no, no, we will take them. And then suddenly they were stuck with, uh, with a group of, uh, of, uh, wolves, um, and, and that's when they, they started to, uh, to make the wolf park, um, in, in Denmark. So the, the wolf park is still, it's to present date. It's still there and it's still going. No, it moved, it moved, uh, it moved, it had to move, you know, uh, things like that tend to have lots of, of, uh, problems with the authorities about, uh, regulations and, uh, and unfortunately, uh, um, you know, many local governments, uh, do not really realize the value of, of having, um, a research center, um, like this one. It's always the, the same fight, you know, if it doesn't give money, if it doesn't give money to the government, it's not interesting. Yes. Yes. And especially if it's, it's a little bit outside the trend of the ideologies that are running things, definitely. So I, I, another question that I have that I'm, I, I just have so many questions. I hope I remember all of them, but I, I, I wonder how was it for you going through evolutionally, psychology, biology, etology. I mean, at the time that you were

really going deep in it, it was clear already that the behaviorism had huge holes. I mean, John Garcia and Harlow's monkeys and all those things were already there. Like how, how, um, how was it presented like at, at school and when, when you were going through, through, uh, your PhD, how, how, how did you guys look at behaviorism at the time? Well, I was not very interested in behaviorism actually. Remember I, I'm, I'm an European, uh, well, right. Citizen of the world, but, uh, most European. But did you touch it at all? As far as like, well, by the way, there is this thing that Americans do. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, we, we, we, we studied a little bit, uh, Watson, uh, Thorndike, uh, Skinner, um, but not, I guess, uh, as, as deep as, as they would have done in, in American, um, uh, colleges, uh, for sure not. We, we had our, our own tradition, the, the etology tradition of, uh, von Fritsch, uh, Lawrence, Tinbergen. And so you were clearly already seeing that that, that that's not all it, there is. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. No doubt about that. Actually, I have to, uh, to, to go much deeper into behaviorism later on because I, I wanted to understand, um, behaviorism and I wanted to understand the, the, the flaws of the model. Because all models have flaws, by the way, it's not only behaviorism. Yeah. All models have flaws. Uh, models are only, you know, very rough, uh, ways for us to understand the reality. Um, and, and behaviorism as it's as well. Behaviorism is, is reductionist as, as all science is. And there is nothing wrong with being reductionist as long as you don't become greedy, as long as you don't become a greedy reductionist, which means you want to explain too much with too little. Um, and I, and I think maybe that, that is the problem that, that we see these days, but, but, um, please Ivan, we, uh, remember one thing, we really have to distinguish the behaviorism used by doctrines these days and, uh, to be fair to behaviorism. Sure, sure, sure. And the real behaviorism, because, I mean, if you go back to Skinner and Thorntag and so on, there are, uh, uh, many good descriptions and amazingly good things. Oh, 100%. Oh yeah. No, there is, there is many, many, many, I mean, yeah, I, I actually agree 100%. We would not be able to do what we do. They definitely have that piece of the puzzle that fits very, very well. But at the same time, they put a, a hold on, on understanding how we learn for a very long time too. And Pavlov, by the way, let's not forget Pavlov too, when we speak about that. And I can give you the example, Pavlov was, uh, uh, then in

justice, uh, for quite many years, uh, starting with the, uh, lost in translation, as I used to call it, because you can check it, uh, because I'm sure that you understand the Russian. If you read the, uh, uh, Pavlov, he never wrote about conditioned reflexes. He wrote about conditional reflexes, conditional in Russian, uh, which is different from conditioned. And that doesn't do any justice to Pavlov because Pavlov's, uh, uh, philosophy was, uh, that, uh, that everything basically was conditional, everything depending on certain conditions. Uh, and it goes really badly lost in translation when you speak about conditioned reflexes instead of conditional. Now I have to go back. I don't think I've ever actually go back and read it in, um, in Russian. I have it. I have it behind me in Russian. I do not read Russian, but I want to have the originals and I go check. And, uh, and, and sometimes I, uh, I ask people to help me with the, with the transitions. Yeah, no. Yeah, absolutely. When, when you want to go deep into something, we know very well that sometimes translation just kills it. I know from my experience, sometimes I would go and do some workshop or a course somewhere and make a presentation of any, any way. And I depend, I mean, you know, you depend on the translator, hundred percent. It's, he's like, he or she is the first one that's gonna either make the seminar, right? Or it's gonna confuse people. And then, you know, by the audience, when you see those eyes, it's like, Oh, what, what is the translation? And I'm like, okay, something must have went wrong. Oh, I experienced that in Japan, uh, where I, I lectured and then suddenly I realized there was something wrong because the reaction of people was not the one that I expected. And then in the break, actually someone came and told me that the translator was actually translating what I was saying completely wrong. Uh, so we have to rather talk about that. Words are important. The way we formulate things are important. No doubt about that. The translation and the interpretation, but it's the same with learning. It's exactly not, you know, does apply the rules. Yeah. But you know what, Ivan, everything is a question of a translation of interpretation of, uh, everything, you know, the way, the way we see the world, we see the world in a certain, let me give you the example of the colors. We see the colors we see, and we, we, um, believe in our, um, human arrogance that, um, the objects are the way we see them and they have the colors

that we see them. That's reality. If you ask a bee, a honeybee, the honeybee will tell you, no, no, the, the, the colors are, you see, you guys, you see colors completely wrong. And why is that so? As an evolutionary biologist, I, I, I firmly believe I'm, I'm, I'm more and more tending toward believing that evolution has not, uh, uh, uh, developed us to see reality the way the reality is. Evolution has developed, uh, as all organisms to see reality the way that it best increases their, uh, inclusive fitness. Which means you see the world that, uh, suits you best. The one that, um, gives you the greatest chance to survive and to reproduce. Um, and I do my way. And, uh, if we do it differently, now imagine how a dog or a rabbit or a bee or a jellyfish or on an octopus. Right. So I think we need this kind of humility. I think we, we think, we, we, we need to be, we need to be humble with, um, with, um, what we know and we do not know and, and, um, not to be, go against the kind of absolutism, you know, things are the way they are. Uh, well, yes, they may be, but, um, how are they? I'm not sure that, uh, I have the right, uh, perception, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which I don't know, but somehow it made me think of, uh, now nowadays are artificial intelligence and how, how we go back and forth from, from, okay, this is how a living being learns and this is what's important and then how you can program and how you can actually go back and forth and both our benefit. And we are really like skyrocketing as far as understanding, learning because of artificial intelligence nowadays. Yeah. And we're going to have a problem one day, a big problem because we're going to have some, um, organisms with artificial intelligence that are as good as we are. If not superior, right? Yeah. And you know why they will be that? Because they will be able to control their emotions. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was interesting. I don't know where I read, did I read it or it was at YouTube some somewhere, but it was very interesting artificial intelligence and, and they were talking about making a mistake. Like, let's say a robot makes a mistake and there is no emotions. But when you program the robot to make a mistake and have emotions and basically say, Oh, I'm, I'm truly sorry or something of this sort. And now the human mind is so much more willing to go along because there is that so-called human traits. And it's all artificial intelligence in the same way. It's, it's, it's crazy. Have you seen the movie Ex Machina? Yes.

Beautiful movie. Oh, beautiful movie. So you know what I'm talking about when the emotions may be our downfall, you know? Yes, exactly. Right. And then you start like, you know, I'm okay. I know it's a robot, but it's okay for me. Right. So tell me another thing. Like I, I know we, we both go long ways away as far as the evolution of dog training itself. Like I'm not sure, but I would take a wild guess. And I would assume that you also started in a very traditional way of, of reinforcement and punishment and avoidance escape avoidance. That was my background. I, I did came from, from a military Russian style of training, which was a curry cutter, you know, uh, I mean, I mean, it was the best at a time. Um, but eventually we started to realize that, that emotions matter and that we cannot do some other things. And I know that you, at least I think, I think, um, I started to pay attention and, and realize it was probably the late eighties or very early nineties is when I was like, okay, I'm completely changing and I'm, I'm very accomplished in what I do. And I never stopped taking anything that's, that has benefit. Um, so needless to say, um, so needless to say, when the whole movement, the whole ideology of force free came in, I jumped on it. I mean, there is nothing better than being able to accomplish something without the use of aversive period. Um, and I know that, uh, I mean, you at the time, I, I mean, even I think still till very recently you, you were going and giving a lot of, uh, uh, presentations and you, you were very strongly supporting this. And I'm curious, where are you standing right now? Look, you're speaking about the force free and all that, uh, movement, you know, I, I, I, we didn't call it force free, but I, I was, uh, among the pioneers of, of that current, if you can call it, this is my first book. Look, look at how I look like. Can you see it? Yes. Yes. Yes. This is from 1984. And you know what, 1984, everything that I, that we, we talk about, uh, that people talk about now, it's here, but it's here in, in a slightly different way. First, it's not here in a dogmatic way. Um, it's there as, as an approach, you know, um, and, and the idea at the time in the eighties was, because as you said, I also started like you, you know, when I, when I went to training with, with the dogs, it was, I mean, training came from the military. Yeah. They were the, they trained the, the, you know, the, the, the dogs and, and that's what we had. And that's what I questioned. Um, not, not only me,

of course, many others, well, not many others, but some, I can, uh, Anders Hallgren in Sweden was one of the, maybe first, uh, actually I, I would, I would create him with being the first one to look at it differently because he even goes back to 1970s. What is, what is his name? Anders Hallgren. Okay. And, um, and then we had Ian Dunbar, of course, in, in, um, UK, uh, well, uh, US, um, we had, uh, Roger McFord at the time in England and the things that we were doing were different. We, we actually met all three for the first time, um, in Bermuda, uh, and, uh, we were very surprised, you know, it's not like now we didn't have internet. We didn't have nothing like that. So we were very surprised that we were doing similar things with different approaches. Um, but, but, uh, but still, uh, trying to make a chance, you know, and the, the most interesting for us was not so much the similarities, but were, um, that we were trying to achieve the same goal, but with different, uh, kind of different approaches, because remember I came from biology, Anders Hallgren, um, um, and, and Roger McFord from psychology, Ian Dunbar veterinary. So of course we have different approaches, uh, but that doesn't, that didn't prevent us from being able to talk and to inspire one another and the movement grew, which I think it was of course, uh, uh, good. Uh, it was progress. Uh, it was good. Um, what I don't think it's so good is that, uh, is the, that the movement lost, um, became too dogmatic, um, too, um, uh, um, you know, imposing, uh, too, too, too, too sure of itself in a way. Look, there is nothing in this book here, um, that says this is the, the, the way and the only way to do things, you know, um, um, and these, and these days, if you, if you do not do things in a certain way, uh, like certain groups want, then it's like, uh, everything is wrong. And the, you know, if you ask me, my experience shows me quite the opposite. That shows that there are many paths to the top of the mountain. Uh, and one needs not be more right than the other. It depends on many factors. It depends on what you want. It depends on what you have available. It depends on your priorities. You know, Very true. Very, very well said. So, so if you ask me, of course, I mean, for me, all interactions with all living organisms, no matter what species, uh, uh, will be based on, on respect, respect for what they are. And I don't care if we talk about the dog or, or, or an octopus, you know, or, you know, it's, it's a living organism. Um, I, I firmly believe in the Darwinian, a difference of the greed, not kind, you know? Um,

so as, as long as that respect, that basic respect is, is, is, is preserved. Uh, I cannot say, um, I'm sorry, uh, maybe some people will get very disappointed, but I cannot say that one, one method is correct and all those are wrong. I cannot even say that one method is better than others because again, as I said, depends on the conditionals to go back to Pavlov. Let's give the, let's give the, the behavior is something. Yes. I think this is when, um, unfortunately where we are right now, we are extremely divided and we are extremely divided because of the two extreme. That's the, that's our problem. And it, I mean, it's such a animosity and, and like, there is no, there's no possibility to have conversation between everybody. Yeah, you're right. There are the two extremes and the, and the worst of that is, is even that the, if you are in the middle, uh, then you are even worse because you are pinched by both sides. Yes. Yes. You're, you're truly forced to choose a side today. Otherwise you're really don't belong anywhere. It is a very, very bad idea. Um, but I, yeah, I, I, I don't know. Like, I don't agree with, with neither one, of course. I, and I think that there is always, uh, like, people that really want to learn and want to maximize and do the best they can for their dogs. And I'm not talking just teaching the dog how to sit and, and what's the recipe to make the dog walk next to you and all that. I'm talking about actually accomplish this, but having this amazing motivation and desire of the dog. And if the dog can speak back to say, I feel really good. I, I enjoy doing this. And somehow though, the bot extremes, those camps, they affect that. Like they, each one will kind of try to pull the rug their own way. And it's like, well, no, if you, I mean, for God's sake, like, like the, the most extreme parts is when you, let's say, let's say on the all positive trainers, it's like, well, if you tell the dog that he's wrong, that's already a bad thing. And this is where I, uh, when you trace this all the way down, it goes probably way back to, to, uh, Skinner and, and saying that punishment is just doesn't work. It's not even on moral. It's just like he, he really thought that it doesn't work. But then you take this other group of, on the other side and everything they do is based on suppression and forcing. And neither one is right, but, but there is no debate. Yeah, because neither one, you just, uh, he, he, he hit the nail on its head when you said before, um, that, um, you wanted to do those things with the dog. And if the dog could speak to you,

would say, this is fun. This is good. Right. But you know, neither of these groups speak about it. And I don't care what they call themselves. They got, they can, they can choose the nicest names to describe their movement. It doesn't make it better that they are still manipulating the animal to, and, and they're not, the dog is not, you know, the, the positive side that says, oh, but look at my son, my dog, my dog has a lot of fun. No, the dog doesn't have any fun. The dog is doing it because it's being fed because it needs food or because it is brainwashed to respond to, to, uh, uh, um, conditioned reinforcers and conditioned signals or whatever. Um, so you're still using force. You're just using, uh, uh, a different kind of force. Um, it didn't change anything. You know, I used to say, you, you changed the, you changed the, the plates, but you didn't change the soup. The soup is the same. You just serve it in different plates. Uh, I don't know if you have that expression in, uh, no, but that's, uh, that's easy to get. Okay. But that's what I use. It's still the same, exactly the same. There is no difference. The only difference are, are the, the plate. Yeah. The names that you give it. Uh, and, and I, I, I, I want a different approach. I want the approach of understanding what makes the animal tick, what motivates the animal. How can we do things so that we both benefit from it? And people say, oh, but it's not possible and so on. Yes, it is. Look, I've been there. I've done it. I'm not speaking. And you can see movies of me working with the dogs, uh, with the horses, with guinea pigs, with all kinds of animals. Um, so yes, it is possible to do it. Uh, people say, oh, but the, the, the dog is not going to do anything just because of you. Well, yes, it is because dog is a social animal. So if, if I, if I, if I created a good relationship with the dog, of course the dog is going to do it for me. Uh, and I'm going to do it for the dog. Uh, that's in the genetic blueprint of the animal, you know? Um, so you don't need to, the, the, you know, the, to, to go with lots of bags of foods and, and, and, uh, food and, and, um, and, um, devices, you know, all the devices that you can buy these days, they cost a lot of money and they don't make you a better trainer. Um, if you ask me and allow me to be as bold, uh, if you ask me, what is your, or my best training tool, I tell you it's me, it's you, your best training tool, it's you. Um, and if you use yourself correctly, then you can do whatever. And I don't need to tell you that,

Ivan, because I know what you you've done. I know what you've accomplished. I know very well that, you know, all these, you know, so I don't need to tell you that. But it, this is a very, very important conversation for, especially for my audience to hear, because, uh, this is, this is, it's been a quest of mine to, to try to educate and put a different light on, on this. And, uh, yeah, you're, you're very, um, like you mentioned play originally at some point earlier on the conversation. And, uh, I'm super big on play as an interaction. And sometimes trainers are like, oh, well, you're using a ball or whatever the toy is. And I am also, and I always reply like I, the toy is just the object that we interact with, but finding the way how to cooperate, how to follow the certain rules to interact with that object. That's deep. That has nothing to do as you just giving a ball to a dog and the dog kind of just enjoys the ball. And I think play is very underestimated and... Yeah. Yeah. Uh, even let me tell you one thing, you, you, you, I like to say that it's not the ball in itself. The ball itself in itself means nothing. It's, it's, uh, the, the interaction between you and the animal, what you do together. Yes, exactly. Like the ball is just, um, an accident. Yes. If you end up just giving the dog the ball and he goes away and he's happy, that means you, you haven't accomplished anything. You want, you want the interaction, you and me interacting in a very different way than being the food dispenser and controlling. There is so many, we know now, um, I mean, what it's been at least 20, 30 years now since, uh, what was his name? John Panskep with the, with the tickling rats and how finally we realized that play is a biologically programmed. It's an innate brain system just as it's any of the other primary reinforcers, but you can still see in the dog training world. And I don't know if it's coming from the marine trainers, the sea world trainers, but like very often you will see still people that will, I mean, even, even that the dog equipment companies will sell a toy that has a little pouch so you can put food to teach the dog to play. And you're completely missing the most beautiful way of interaction to coming to some cooperation that two different species can come into interacting in a beautiful way and you just butcher it with another primary reinforcer. It's, it's mind blowing. No, you're right. But I would like also to emphasize because I don't know, I don't know your business, your, but, but I want to emphasize that I have nothing

against using food strategically in animal training. I've, I've used it and I used it when, when, when necessary, but to make food like you see these days, you cannot harm your dog by feeding the dog. You know, if you don't use food, you're not a good trainer. I've seen, I've seen statements like that. I've, I've read statements like that. And that really, uh, makes me in a way a little bit disappointed with the humankind in a way. If you think that the relationship, all relationships are based on food and nothing else than food, then you are being very unfair, not only to the dog, but, you know, to food in itself as well. Yes. Yeah. No, no, but, but no doubt food has its place. It, everything has its place, but it's, uh, it, it, the, at least the way I see the ultimate goal between dog and human interacting is to be able to use whatever, whatever your tools you want to use. And I, I, I, I know I take a big chance to saying this, but whatever the tools you want to use, being food, being toy, being whatever the aversive tools you want to use. Ultimately, if you can strip the dog down and the dog works for you, and I see that dog loving it and choosing not because it's a press, not because it's brainwashing, manipulator, but really choosing to interact with you instead of anything else hats off to that. I'll be the first one. Tell me what you're doing. Yes, I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is the, like, I think, um, I think both sides have so much to bring to the conversation and somehow we are not having that conversation because of the extreme sides of things. Yeah. And it's, um, emotions run high, you know, um, and also the, the, the, the, I mean, basically it's a question of attitude as well. It's the question, it's that attitude that I, that I, I don't understand the one I know everything and, um, I'm right and all those are wrong, you know, um, if I, if I've had that attitude, I would never have learned anything in my life. Um, I, I can, I can give you an example. You spoke about my book, Dog Language, which is also there, and it's translated in, in many languages. And it, it's been a, a long seller, as my publishers call it. They don't call it the best seller. They call it a long seller. Interesting. But I have to, I have a confession to make. Sometimes I look at the book and, and, and I say, oh no, how could I write that? Oh no, no, no. Did I write that? Oh no, did I write that? I mean, I, I'm asking my, my publishers these days to please allow me to edit that book, allow me to edit that book because there are so many

things that they are not directly wrong, but they are not as, as correct as they could have been, you know, because the book was written many years ago. Uh, and if I had the attitude of, I know what is right and that's the only thing that is right and all those are wrong. I mean, my book would be forever right. And it's not, uh, and you know, I'm not even sad because of that. I mean, it's still, I think to this day, it's one of, again, thank you, Ivan. Thank you very much. I wish it would be much better. I'm surprised that they don't let you change some, some of it and make a new, new addition. No, no, they, they, um, they, uh, I, I got finally, um, I'm allowed to do that. I just need time to do it. But you know, the problem is that instead of being like this, it's going to be double. Right. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Oh, I, I also wrote a book, but it was, it came a little bit after years, uh, and it's kind of, uh, uh, very strictly oriented to the sport of Schutzhund with the tracking being protection. And it was during the time that I was heavily influenced of the all positive. No, we, we, you know, so pretty much all of my approach in the book was written this way. And if I have to do it again, I, I know that I will definitely, uh, um, add some things and I will not be so concerned about is it force free? Is it all positive reinforcement? But I will be much more concerned how easy it is for the dog not to get frustrated when learning. And if that dog needs a little, just flip, Hey, don't do that. That's stupid. And he says, thank you. What is the right solution? You know, but, but where the times we're living in, it's, it's, it's very difficult to do something like this. Yeah. Um, yeah, it is. Uh, but, but, and you're right. I mean, what you call it, it, it doesn't really matter. Uh, I, I never think about, um, um, this is, I'm going to write something. I'm from a positive or force free or whatever point of view. I, I, I just, I don't know. I'm, I'm kind of jumping a little bit, but I'm really curious about the rats that you did with the detection. Like how, how did that all even came about? The rats? Well, it's, um, the, I was invited by, by the, the, the creators of the the project, um, um, um, and, and, uh, I was invited invited to go there and observe what they were doing, um, and give them some good ideas maybe. And, uh, I did that and we talked and, uh, apparently they liked my, my approach and then they invited me to, um, to write, um, the, the manual, the instructors, uh, manual of the, of the rat trainers, uh, which is a big thing that I wrote with

all the standard, standard operating procedures and, uh, you know. So how long does it take on average? Uh, and, and what are, are the different levels or, or, um, yeah, I mean, first, uh, look, the, the procedure is a strictly behavioristic procedure of the training of the rats. Yeah. Because, um, um, uh, you know, if they have to be highly efficient, they have to be able to be worked by many different operators, um, and the operators don't have, uh, the necessary background knowledge, uh, to be able to be creative by themselves. So in this case, we are talking about giving, and also we don't want accidents to happen. So it's very strict, uh, do these, these, these, uh, et cetera. And then there are certification, um, tests for, for the rats and for the operators of the rats as well. And, um, I mean, what you do is you, you start by, by, by teaching them the, um, an, an indication behavior, which, uh, people call an alert in, in, um, in center detection normal, but I, I called it an indication behavior. And, uh, the rats have, um, uh, uh, two natural behaviors when they find something interesting. One of them is to stick the nose, poke the nose into that, whatever it is to sniff it. And the other one is to scratch with the, with the paws. And, um, some prefer one thing and the others prefer another one. So we, we gave them a little bit of freedom there. You can choose, uh, kind of, so those that, um, had tendency to poke the nose, uh, into whatever that they found interesting, we reinforced that now to, to use behavioristic language and the others that scratched, we reinforced that instead. And then we introduced the, the, the target sent to them, which was the TNT and we used TNT because TNT was the, um, uh, and these, the, the, the fallous component of, of, uh, the explosives, uh, that you find in minds of all of them, independent of whether they come from, um, uh, uh, earlier Soviet Union or, or, or, uh, United States of America is the same. And then once they have that, uh, uh, uh, uh, that target sent, we introduced, um, other sense so, so that they could learn scent discrimination. Um, but they had already the indication behavior, so it was no problem. And then you train, you train, you make it more difficult, you introduce more variables into it, like, um, uh, rain, humidity, you know, different soils because of the landmines are, are placed in different signs, right? Um, at the time, I hope we had the, the training, the, the biggest minefield in the world to train with

over 3000 different minds, um, of many different, uh, uh, uh, uh, fabrications, different ones. And then you train direct to not, not to, to, to make mistakes, you know, uh, a false positive, um, you, you'd say, well, a false positive is not so bad, right? Well, a false positive is actually often worse than, than, than you can imagine because, um, you don't know where it is. Uh, there is a suspicion that, uh, there is a mine there, uh, but you don't know where, and you cannot find it. And you cannot release the land to, to the local population, um, because it's dangerous. So you have to find it. Um, so we hope that, um, that we do, we do not have false positives. Also the, the rats trained in, uh, worked in teams so that, um, we didn't take the word of a rat for granted. We always wanted to have a confirmation. And with the TV, we also trained them at the time. All this work I'm talking about, amazing work is done by Apopo, Apopo in, uh, Morogoro, Tanzania. Christopher Cox, um, is the executive director. Um, and, and, uh, and, uh, uh, Bart Vecins, by the way, uh, let's not forget him, because Bart and, and, and, and Chris, they, they started the project many years ago. They come from Belgium, by the way, maybe, maybe you know them both. Um, and they, and then, and they, they also started the projects of, uh, detecting tuberculosis and the photo tuberculosis. Um, we always had three rats running through the same samples, uh, and if all three agreed, then we would, uh, say that, okay, that's a safe one. Uh, if two agreed, but one disagreed, then it was a suspect, we would say it, you know, it will require them, uh, lab analysis to find out, um, who was right, which one of the rats were right. So what about the, like, uh, how do you, or how do they select them? Is that a, is there something specific test like how you would run, uh, uh, a dog or, or is it less important? Yeah, that's interesting because, you know, the first rats, they were completely wild. Um, so the, the, they started with wild rats, tamed, you know, got them used to, to people. And that's, I guess, why you have to start with the behavioristic principles, um, because it was what also would give you the quickest results, not necessarily the best, but absolutely the quickest results. Um, and then, uh, and then, uh, Apollo started its own breeding, uh, program, uh, the best rats, uh, together, you know, and of course the second, third, and first generation, they, they are, they are different because we've been doing what natural selection does, you know, selecting, um, uh, according to a criteria.

And the criteria, there were only basically, well, two main criteria. Of course, we want the rat to be healthy and all that, but the two basic criteria is a good nose. That's the first one, which they all have basically. And the second one, um, um, uh, uh, ease to learn, to be easy for us to interact with them. Um, and that is very much connected with curiosity. Uh, the more curious the animal is, the easiest would be to, um, to teach the animal new behaviors. So is there, is there like, uh, when, when you say the first, the first, the first ones, yeah, the first batch, what, um, would you, would you put them in like different groups of like, okay, these are really bold, really bully-like, these are aware of the environment, more careful. I mean, rats is a general, uh, I would think it's, they're very aware and careful, but are there some that are really extremely careful to where would not be suitable? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, there, there, there were, and there were some of them that were so fearful of, of, uh, everything that had to do with the humans that you could basically not work with them. So that, that is the first, uh, that we have to sort out, uh, which animal we were starting with the wild animals is always difficult. We have the same problem when we worked with the foxes. Um, they were also wild animals. And even if they were, the first ones when they, they were very small, when, when we got them, uh, if you get them three, four weeks of age, it's already too late. Uh, most of the imprinting is, is, um, is underway or, or it's not completed, but it's, um, it's too late. So you can get, maybe get them used to humans, but they will never consider a human, a kind of, um, a species you can interact with, um, on equal foot, you know. With dogs, I mean, I guess with every, every living thing, but, but specifically with dogs, like if you are to give an advice to a new trainer that starts, that has obviously interest and it's young or, or maybe it's not young, but definitely it's like, wow, I'm fascinated by dogs and how they learn and how we interact. Any, any, any, where would you, what would you give them as an advice? How to being, living in a, in a social media environment where everybody gives advices and you can get lost in a very dangerous rabbit holes. Yeah, that's right. I, I, you, you mean if, if, uh, what advice I would give people if they want? Yeah. Yeah. Like, like if they really seriously, besides the just, oh, I'm just want to learn this basic thing, but, but there is a lot, a lot of hungry.

People that, that, that just like us get involved and, and they go and they don't watch Netflix. They try to read things. They try to do the right thing and, and educate themselves. What kind of advice would you give? You know, the, the, but Ivan, it's different because we live in a different time now. The problem is that you and I, we read books. Uh, we, we have to be active to go there and find things. Um, you, you have to go on. And so did I to the library to find books, to find papers. We have to go through those. You remember those micro fish, those, uh, uh, deeply annoying things that you have to go through. So we have to, we have to be active in searching, uh, uh, the knowledge. And, and these days people are not active. Um, people want everything served. They are used to have everything served. I think they are active, but they, they are lost. I think, uh, like right now, if somebody has such a number of followers and likes, all of a sudden it's, this is the right person. Um, and we know this is not the right person just by just glancing through their stuff. And you know, this is so wrong, but it's not easy for the, for the young crowd to, to, to navigate through, through the confusion. You know, what, what, what I, I try to teach our students and always did was be critical, be yourself, be critical, ask why, why don't accept things. Um, just because someone tells you that. And I even used to tell them if, if I ever see you doing something, because I, I say, uh, without questioning me or questioning yourself, whether it is right. Uh, what I, what I told you, then I will get very offended. Uh, I, I don't want you to do what I tell you because I tell you. I want you to do it what I tell you because you investigated it and you think it is correct. Uh, so I, I think we have to reawaken that, uh, critical, uh, thinking sense, uh, in, in, in people, um, to make them question, uh, things. Of course, it's difficult because people tell me also that, um, my students, they, they belong to, to different groups, you know, our students and, and they tell me, but in that group, you know, I asked the question and they threw me out. They banned me from the group. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, you know, you, if you are not even allowed to, to question, uh, then we are in, in a vicious circle, you know, and the, and even, and it gets even more vicious because of what I told you before, because people, uh, kind of are used to get everything served. I, I, I, I can tell you, we did some studies on that and, uh, I post a link.

We post a link with a picture and a little summary of an article that I write. It could be an article that could be important for people to understand, like the one that we have right now on our page or about evolutionarily stable strategies, you know, that will make people understand a little bit better. Why, um, why we sometimes behave aggressively at the time we behave fearfully, other times we behave dominantly and other times we behave submissively just to use an example. That would, that would, that would explain. And, and then we go behind the scenes because, you know, we have our technical people, uh, that can, can see everything. Um, and then, and we have likes, likes, likes, likes, dislikes, and so on. But you know what, if we have, let's say that my article got, um, um, uh, 500 likes and, uh, you think, oh, that is good. But then we go behind and see how many read the article, because we can see how many clicked and read the article. And then we have, we have only 25 who read the article. So what is it that they like? Do they like the picture? Uh, in that case, I, I will stop writing books and only post pictures instead, you know? Yes, yes. It's, it's really the, the phenomenon and, and the fast pace of everything. And it's impossible to pay attention. It's really impossible. Hmm. Yeah. What about like your new book? Um, like if, if you are to introduce your book, the, the last one, the, uh, animal training, my way to, to the audience, how would you, what would you say? I would say that that book is a book, um, about, um, um, um, controlling our emotions and controlling our behavior. And, um, um, I write there that if, if, if, if I control my emotions and I control my behavior, I will produce in others, maybe the behavior that I want, not against their will or not by using pseudo, uh, techniques like, uh, psychological techniques. But because they want the chance. Um, and that's what the book is about. I, I emphasize immensely and I show it on, on, on several videos. I don't say one word. I don't use one word to the dog or to the horse, not one. Um, everything is my body language, my written, uh, with the animal, my, my facial expressions as well, which work very nicely with dogs. By the way, we're very lucky from that point of view. Um, they work less well with horses, but, uh, but much better with, uh, with, with dogs. So that's what it is all about. And, and, and, and it, it's, um, it's about making things simple, uh, not simpler than necessary, but, but, but simple using ourselves.

Um, you know, we have, we, we are so, so afraid of failing sometimes that, um, we, we project, uh, that, that, uh, fear in our body language. Mm-hmm. And if, if we, if we fail, I, uh, and, and if we do that, if we feel, if, if we, if we, if we project fear and insecurity, what dog will follow an insecure person? Right. I mean, you know, dogs only go three places. They go, either they go someplace or they go someplace, somewhere else, or they go nowhere. Right. So when I, when I say, when I see dog owners walking with their dogs, they walk like they, where are we going? We going, we going there where, you know, the heel, the heel thing, heel exercise, which is so easy. And they walk like they drunk or like, like they are zombies. And I tell them what dog will follow you, you know? So, so if you, if you want to walk, you say, I'm going to walk there. And then when you get there, you say, I'm going to walk there. And then you don't walk anywhere. And if you show that very clearly, the dog, the, wow, this guy knows where you, where, where he's going to do, what he's going to do. And if you stop also with, and you feel certain of yourself, the dog will also stop and look at you like, oh, he stopped. Why did he stop? You know? And people are so afraid of failing. And because then people ask me, what if it goes wrong? Well, tough luck. Sometimes things don't work. You know, then what you do? Start all over again. But when you start all over again, you believe that you're going to succeed. So I really believe that, that from the experiences that I have, that you don't need to force the animal to do anything. You just need to show the animal that you know what you're doing. And if you know what you're doing and you show that, then of course the animal will follow you. Yes. And, and yeah, I, I, I cannot agree more with you on this. And on, I'd like, if I need, I would add something to this is you actually don't need to be a dog trainer. You just need to be very sincere and pay attention. And you will find a way how to get along and, and come to some agreement. It's, it's, this is like the amazing part of, of dogs. Not too many other animals can do this with us, but dogs somehow are very eager and very keen to, to catch and follow us. If we, if we address it and we don't be like, oh, I'm the master and you're, you know, like they, they really intrigued by us just as much as we are by them. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I never think on those terms, I'm the master, no matter what, what animal I work with.

I never think about I'm the master is the, my, my servant, servant, but I do not think the other way around either. I'm not, I'm, I don't accept any animal independent. I don't accept a human doing that. And then, of course, I don't accept a dog or a horse or a jellyfish, you know, to push me around, you know. Exactly. Okay. Okay. Another one. I hope we have a little more time. You know, the, and, and I, I really don't know how you feel about this, so I was very, very curious to hear. But the whole thing about the, the, the, our dog dominant animals and the whole dominance conversation. And I, I, I, I will refrain from studying anything because I don't want to say anything, but I, I know it came from David Mack when he first, and he just got picked up that one phrase that, no, they are not dominant. And there's no, I actually tried to have him on my podcast specifically to talk about this, but somehow he, he's still in a, some government position and he, he's just not, they did not let him talk with me. But meanwhile, I know that he retracted that state. Like, actually he's like, no, yeah, we don't, we understand that wolves are not the kind of pugs that I was explaining, that they're more families. But there is definite hierarchy. And there is definitely somebody that says you little dogs and wolves follow me. Right? Ivan, I, I, I hope you, you, you succeed in getting David Mitch to, in your program and having him clarify that. Because it was actually unfortunate what he said. And it was, I, I know he was under tremendous pressure from, from those very extreme groups. And, and, and, and, and, and that happened, but, but, but, you know, and I know also that he also rejected that and said, no, they, they are misquoting me or misinterpreting my own words. And I've told them many times that. All our tutors at the institute do that. And still there, there are a group out there that continues to say that dominance, dominant behavior doesn't exist. And, and maybe it exists for all other animals, but apparently not for the dog, which would be, which would be an evolutionary, like winning the lottery. Or, or, or, or dogs are aliens and have completely different genetic makeup than every other one in, on earth. Yeah. I wrote an article once called the dominance making sense of the nonsense. Um, where I, I, look, I, I, I'm an evolutionary biologist and ethologist. I define very precisely. You can find it on our website, um, um, courses. And, uh, I, I wrote over 100 articles, which are free for people there to write, to read.

And I define, uh, dominant behavior, um, submissive behavior, aggressive behavior, and fearful behavior very clearly. And the way I interpret that in my model, which started actually with, um, another book, The Evolution of Canine Social Behavior, which was published at the same time of Dog Language. Uh, in my model, I, I see these things as not characteristics of the individual, but characteristics of, um, of the behavior. You cannot say that, uh, you cannot say that, uh, uh, someone is dominant. You can say someone behaves dominantly. You cannot say that someone else is submissive. You can say someone behaves, uh, or is submissive, behaves submissively, if you know what I mean, right? Yes. It's the behavior. Those terms are adjectives of behavior, not of the individual. Then, of course, you have hierarchies. You have, you do that. And, uh, I mean, if you, if you see the function of hierarchies are not to, um, to oppress some, uh, particularly individuals more than others. It's to actually, to make the group, uh, work better. Harmony, of course. For, for, for the benefit of everybody. Um, and if you look at, um, Um, you can even actually, uh, if you, if you go back to the, the idea of the selfish gene, you can see that, um, uh, the selection is not, or been, been, been done at, uh, at the group level. Uh, or, or gene, gene, gene plex, the, the complex of genes, uh, level. Um, and in that case, it favors, uh, it favors everybody. Um, the group, a well, a well-structured group favors everybody. People, I have so much against hierarchies. And I said, look, uh, and, and, and also another thing I don't understand by the way, Ivan, is that people these days have so much against wolves. Well, they are always have. Wolf has also been, uh, persecuted and it still is. Um, there is a faction of dog trainers and dog owners that, um, they want to distance themselves and their dogs from wolves. Like, uh, we were talking about vampires, you know, but that is because of the, the, the propaganda of the ideology because it doesn't fit the narrative. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe, maybe you're right. Yeah. Maybe that's why, you know, and there is nothing, nothing to be ashamed. Uh, uh, uh, if, if our dogs, yes, they are very closely related to the wolves. Actually, there is no other animal as close related to the wolf as the domestic dog. Um, and, and, uh, I, I don't see anything to be ashamed, uh, of that. Actually, some people even contradict themselves. You know, if you look at the studies, um, wolves show much less level of aggressive behavior. For instance, when they grow up, uh, than dogs do.

And the people say, oh, aggression is a bad thing. They forget actually that dogs are more aggressive than wolves. Look at the structure. Hierarchies. They don't like hierarchies. They, if you speak the word alpha, they get, uh, a fit, you know, and they enable, they immediately label you like a, a bad person. Because they bring the, the most awful description and example of it. And it touches everybody's heart and off you are on the bandwagon. Yes, exactly. Yeah. You do. But if you look at the structure of a wolf pack, um, is, is, um, um, well organized. Um, it's, it's family based, of course, because, um, of the boundaries in, in, in nature. If you compare with, um, with the structure of a dog pack, like, um, um, my colleagues have studied in Italy, especially in Italy with the feral dogs and the straight dogs of, in the streets of Rome. Um, the, the, the dog pack is more like a, a, a band of, of deliquent teenagers in the, in the middle of LA. You know, there is no, no real structure. Um, there is no, no goal, uh, no direction for the group. Um, it's, uh, it's the survival of, of the strongest, not the fittest, you know? And, and, and there is the difference. Again, if you look at the wolf, there is for sure the, the, there is structure. Um, there is a, a direction for, for, for the, for the pack and it is the survival of the fittest, not the strongest. The alpha wolf, uh, is not the strongest. He's actually the, the wisest. Uh, normally he's the father of the family and the mother. It's, uh, we call alpha pair, uh, because of that, you know? And why is that so? Because they are the, the wisest and one day they won't be the wisest and then they lose it. And then someone else wiser takes the place, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad we were talking about this. I mean, also we, we have to make sure that we, we understand that we, that the whole idea of, of constantly going after your dog as a pet owner and suppressing him and thinking that he's going to take over your world. It's wrong. But you know, of course it is. But, but who says that? I mean. But you cannot. Oh, there is, um, there is a lot of, um, um, um, I mean on, on both sides of the extremes, I think there is, uh, there is this notion of, uh, well, you know, the, the traditional approach will be, he needs to know who's the boss, but he needs to know who's the boss. Because it's, it's in a very, uh, um, with a lot of animosity and like, like they, before they even start interacting with a dog, they are all were already convinced that the dog's gonna show them the middle finger, no matter what.

You know, and it's like so therefore, we need to start right now and he needs to be and this is not authority because there is difference between authority and respect versus total fear and I really I mean... But Ivan to go from one extreme to the other doesn't make the situation of the dog better. Correct. Because if you use that kind of authority I show you who's the boss. The dog lives in a state of fear because he doesn't know what to expect. But if you go to the other side and you say, oh no, we are no boss. No, no, we are all equal and all that. The dog also lives in a constant state of fear because there's no what to do and nobody is showing directions, you know. So again, what have you done? We have changed the plates, the soup is the same and the dog is insecure and miserable before or after as it was before. So, you know, I would say that it's all a question of balance and now I know that people are going to label me and you know what, Ivan, I don't care. I still think one of maybe the lessons that I've learned throughout my life of studying nature, of observing nature is it is a question of balance. In nature, extremes do not fare as well as balanced individuals in all aspects. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, very, very nice conversations. But just to, you know, kind of finish the conversation about when we talk in mythology about dominant, submissive, aggressive and fearful, we don't mean anything like either I'm the boss or you can do whatever you want, you know. It's not, the terms do not mean that. The terms describe very specific behaviors which play a role in a global evolutionarily stable strategy. Yeah. I hope you found it interesting to what I have to say. Oh, I, I can, I can have that conversation like, like we can go on, but I know it, we, we did quite a bit. We can do it another day. We can. We should, we should, because we really, I think we have a lot, we have a lot of things that we can talk about. And I think at least for me, it's very mind stimulating. And, and I know my audience, the people that like my podcast, they would absolutely love you. So thank you very much for joining. Oh, what you do with the institute, because it's a it's a very important. Yeah, it follows institute, you can reach us on our website at it theology.eu. and what we do basically is that we offer courses and programs for the first one different levels you know the dog training advanced dog training and animal training but we call it applied ethology because for us the important thing is not so much the

the training part is the applied ethology so one of the it's called one of the the levels it's called certificate in applied canine ethology and the other one is in advanced animal ethology applied ethology so we offer the courses we these days we offer them online the all theory online with we have forums where the students and the tutors meet and discuss these things we have meetings like the one we have having now zoom zoom meetings where where we tutors meet the students and talk about whatever they need and all the practical work you can also do it from home actually we we wished i still missed the on-campus atmosphere being able to be there live with the students and the animals but these days is not possible so we do it by by by video actually the students are in contact with the students like like here for instance or through skype normally and they they show what they do the the tutor corrects they do it again you know through through video yeah so how how long normally it's like the your the initial program well how long does it take cpdt which is the the certified professional dog trainer um program people can do it in about one year depending on their practical skills if they are very good uh with the practical skills then they can do it in six months which is even but you know the problem is always the practice we we um we wait the practical part quite a lot because we don't want our students to be people that know everything uh about everything but cannot show anything we want them to be able to show um i used to say words are cheap show me instead yes and that is what um takes time i most students they do the theory in four five six months and then the rest of the time is um um struggling struggling with the the practice and i really say struggling because many come with bad habits you know and um and we have kind of start from from ground zero right right and then we have the next program which is the certificate in applied canine ethology that takes about six months more and it's more demanding and it includes also the scent detection canine scent detection not because we want them to be especially good at scent detection but because of what it teaches them to to pass the blood the double blind test in scent detection has taught them to be able to communicate with the animal to read the behavior of the animal to understand the difficulties of the animal and i think they learn a lot and then we have the last one which is the certificate in applied animal ethology where they have to work besides working with dogs they have to work with two other species

and most choose dogs and cats but we also have dogs and guinea pigs we have dogs and marine mammals uh horses and marine mammals i mean you can combine that in many different ways so that's what the ethology institute does and then we have as you know our group on facebook um which is called the ethology institute group where we invite everybody to discuss whatever topic they may want the only rules we have is that um uh you they they must respect one another they have to be cautious to one another and and and and provide arguments um we don't care whether you come from the right or from the left on the contrary like you said we want everybody to talk together we want all ideas to be there but one thing that we are very strict and we will not tolerate is bad manners if you know what i mean yeah yeah especially now you may disagree with the statement but you may not disagree with the person i used to say a person is different disagree with the statement that's fine provide arguments that's fine we have extremes in our group we have people from both extremes um discussing and that's fine we monitor that as long as they are polite to one another and and provide arguments that's fine that group is also very important for us because it's part of what we call knowledge to everyone everywhere that's our goal to spread knowledge to everyone everywhere we don't have any special ideology or school that we um that we promote you know like um you have to do it like that no yeah we we want to promote open mindless uh real science and critical thinking that's the best way to do it's really the best way it's very similar like i at my school the training without conflict it's it's very similar um and we do have the the zoom calls and do have everything and and um yeah it's really probably quite similar because convincing both extremes that they are they are really just blindfolded and and yeah and i also hear that you promote also the open-mindedness you know very much so very much so like i i tell you what like if somebody says right now that they they have a better way whatever that is but it's a better way and they live in alaska or hong kong and it's covet times i will find a way to go and learn it like i will find a way to go and learn it and i think i'm not alone i think uh many many dog trainers will do the same where we struggle with is especially with social media and especially with some of the scientific kind of sell the papers that's like oh no this works better it's proven to work and then you

and then i go and i spend a week and trying to get a hold of anybody okay it's proven but where is it proven i i actually can you show me you say that there is videos there is there is this there is this like you telling me that it's proven it's just very insufficient and if we get to the core it's like no you you're better and you know you think you have something better present it and show it and and you will get everybody on board and i think somehow we need to on on from all angles we need to approach this a little bit different than one being taller than the other it's like no it's proven you have to just trust me that this is how it is like no that's not how we work that's not how we function it's a wrong approach yeah even we could go on forever i know it was a pleasure i i cannot like i i know i i'm so so happy that i was able to invite you and that you had some free time to do this with me thank you thank you and the pleasure is mutual it's been a pleasure for me as well to to have met you finally because i've also heard as you know a lot about you uh also from our tutors yes maybe one day we meet in person maybe i know i have so many ideas and so many conversations that just will be interesting like you know for example dealing with competing reinforcers and how all the different reinforcement where is their place and how they affect the most emotions and like i know i know we're gonna talk a little bit at some point again oh yeah oh yeah we we have we have one of our to follow her on um on um on our group page um christina she called christina sette bulli from singapore she's very much into that now studying that you know we all have our specialties at the institute right um and that that you mentioned there it's her specialty she's right into that now doing some research uh i think you could have some very interesting discussions with her about that too yeah roger thank you so much again and we'll be talking again we will thank you Ivan thank you so so you