E164: 줄리 플래너리(Julie Flanery) - "소품 내려놓기"

Fee is, little Fee, Fee Burger as my husband likes to call her. Fee is 22 months. That makes it sound like she's younger than the actual two years old that she is. And she is learning all the things all the time. We're doing a lot of fun and games right now, but also working on her first freestyle routine as well and the skills that she'll need for freestyle and rally free. Awesome. So before we really jump into the main topic that I want to talk to you about today, I know you recently kind of worked on a really cool project, a freestyle project through Rally Freestyle Elements. So do you want to just share a little bit about it? Yeah. It actually came about from a friend and fellow freestyler, Judith Dudley. She had an idea based on the guy that goes around the world and teaches people he meets a new dance, like a global dance. And then he compiled all these little video clips and he ended up with one long video clip of all the places around the world with these people performing the same dance with him. And so we thought it would be really fun to put together something similar. And this actually started before the pandemic. But once we all became stay-at-homers, this took on kind of a new meaning for us because we were missing our freestyle buddies. We were missing training together. We wanted to be able to meet all of the other freestylers that we knew from online. And this was a really fun way to do it. So freestyler submitted a 30-second video all to the same song, one that they choreographed a piece of. And then I pulled out about 10 seconds from each of the submissions and compiled them into one long freestyle routine. So it's kind of fun. It ended up being pretty long. There were over 100 submissions. And because the purpose of this was to kind of bring everybody together, I didn't want to cut anybody out. So it's a fairly long video. It's about 15 to 20 minutes. But it's really, really fun. And it just really shows the spirit of freestyle and the spirit of freestylers all over the world and how much we enjoy really dancing with our dogs. So it's kind of fun. And since the pandemic, it's even become more meaningful to us. So we're happy to share that. And we had a lot of fun doing it and putting it together. So you mentioned that it was kind of the guy who travels around the world that inspired it. But where can folks go if they want to kind of watch it and check it out? Yeah, sure. Right now, it's posted on our main Facebook page. You can do a search for Rally Freestyle Elements. And you can watch it there. Awesome. All right.

So to kind of move on to what I actually specifically was hoping we could talk about today, props, I happen to know that you're a big proponent of props when training new behaviors. So what are some of the benefits to using props? For me, they very quickly and very clearly communicate criteria for the dog without a lot of body prompting or hand cues that I'm going to need to eliminate later. For me, in freestyle, our goal is to get all the behaviors on verbal cue so that we can use our arms and hands and bodies for interpretation of the music. But even in obedience or other sports, rally, rally free, I don't really want my hands and my body to become too large a part of the cue. It's far easier for me to remove a prop than it is to remove a body part or train my brain not to send signals that tell me to move my body to help my dog in a certain way. If we train using a lot of physical prompts, our dogs are going to learn to look for those and not necessarily focus on our cues. A lot of the body prompts are unconscious. They're minute movements that aren't always consistent. And so they are not a very reliable way to elicit behavior. And yet the dog will continue to look for those even when we don't even provide them anymore, such as in the ring. So by using the props, I'm able to eliminate any of those body cues that I might normally have used to communicate the criteria that I want my dog to perform then. Second, they create a pattern of accuracy and precision very early in the training process. And that allows us to provide a really high rate of reward for those criteria. And the props minimize and in a lot of cases actually eliminate errors. So we aren't spending a lot of time on incorrect responses that actually don't earn rewards. So all of this tends to speed the learning process. And it allows the dog to meet that criteria quickly. It puts more value in the behavior due to the increased rate of reward. So all of those things are some of the reasons why I choose to use props. I want to make sure that I'm communicating clearly to my dog what it is that earns rewards. And I don't really want to use a lot of body English or body language to elicit behavior because I'm just going to have to eliminate that later. And that's really, really difficult. To look at kind of the flip side of that, you know, are there or what are the downsides to using props? And then, you know, are there places where students maybe get stuck or misuse them somehow that tend to cause them problems? Yeah. So one of the, I think, is one of the largest downsides is that it can give the appearance

or a false sense of understanding of the behavior that the dog understands the behavior when he really does not. He's really just utilizing the prop to provide the criteria for the behavior to start. And so we might end up removing that prop too early, or we might not apply a process that allows the dog to maintain the understanding without the presence of the prop. So that's one thing. It makes it look like the dog actually understands the behavior when he probably doesn't yet. On the flip side, it's really easy for us to keep using the prop for too long. Part of that is because we don't really have a plan of how to remove the prop, how to separate it from the behavior. And when we do start to separate from the behavior, we don't know what to do with that loss of accuracy. And so we tend to avoid removing. We put that prop back in right away and we avoid eliminating that prop. I think, too, we are reinforced by our dog's correct responses when they're on the prop. And so, you know, nobody, we don't want our dogs to be wrong. We like it when they're right. And so we continue to use the prop because our dog is always right. And that feels good, good to us. There are a couple other things that are kind of an issue with the prop. Sometimes if you don't have either the right prop, if you're using the right prop or maybe you don't have the right size of prop, then there really isn't any benefit to using the prop. And you end up with the same problems of separating it as well. So you really want to make sure that you have that you're using the correct prop and that you have the right size of prop for the behavior that you're that you're trying to train. I know that, you know, when you're training a behavior, you'll often train it kind of using multiple different props for that same behavior. So, for example, to teach front, you might use a platform in some training sessions and then gates and others. Why is that? What does that accomplish? So I like to use different props for the same behavior and different behaviors for the same props. When we do that, when we use multiple props, the behavior doesn't become associated with just that single prop. And when the behavior is not associated with just that single prop, it makes it easier for us to remove it. So let's say I'm working both the gates for heel work and a pivot platform and a standing platform. And those are props that I would use, would definitely use for my heel work behaviors that I'm trying to train.

If I have all of those behaviors as pieces to my heel work training, then as I start to remove those props, it's not as difficult because it's not the only thing attached to the behavior. The criteria is being reinforced during the use of each of those. So your criteria for heel work is always the same. It's always the constant. And so it's easy for the dog to be able to perform the criteria without one of those specific props and easier to remove each of those props because the dog is being reinforced across all of those props for the exact same thing. And that's what becomes important to the dog. What am I being reinforced for? Not the prop that's being used to elicit that criteria. Did that make sense? Did I say that right? Yeah. Yeah. So you're sort of using them almost as a bridge. Yes, absolutely. To the process of removing it. Right. And we don't always know which of those props is going to best help the dog understand. My dog may look great on one particular prop, be performing the behavior beautifully, might include all the criteria that I want in that prop. But the prop is creating that criteria. Make no mistake. The prop is creating the criteria until we've built a strong enough reward history. And until we have associated that criteria with a cue, then the prop is doing all the work. And that's what we want to start with. But we never really know which prop we might be using that actually makes the most sense to the dog. So by using different props, we're giving him the same information, but in a variety of ways. So basically we're maximizing the benefit of all the props and we are making it much easier to remove any one particular prop. Yeah. I mentioned fronts. You mentioned heel work. What other behaviors do you like to use props for and what other types of props do you use? You mentioned the gates. You mentioned platforms. Uh-huh. So almost all of my freestyle behaviors, both my foundation work like spins or circles or weaves, but also more complex or advanced behaviors like supported handstands or flip back through the legs or back circles or any of the fancier freestyle behaviors, I will use props for. I use props for my distance work, for heel work, as we said. Anything that I need to convey a physical criterion to my dog, where he needs to be, what he needs to be doing physically, I can generally find a way to do it through a prop. Targets are props. I love using targets. Target sticks. I use target sticks to use spin behaviors. I'll also use a combination of different props. So, for example, with spins, I might use both a platform and a target stick.

Or for spins also, I could use a cone and a target stick. I could use gates to teach my spins as well. The gates define the space that I want my dog to perform the spin in the same way a platform would define the space. The target stick allows me to eliminate a hand cue very, very easily by just not including a hand cue. Easier to remove a target stick than it is to remove a hand cue. So freestyle behavior is really important for me because there are so many of them. And I want to make sure that I can convey all of that criteria very quickly in a way that makes sense to the dog. So pretty much anything that has a physical criterion, I can find a way to use a prop to do that. That's not to say that that's all I use. If you do use props, I think it's really important that you and your dog understand the process of shaping because they do go hand in hand, especially when we start to eliminate the props. We're going to use a shaping process to help maintain that skill once the props are removed. So shaping is actually kind of an important part of the removal process. So it's not the props alone that are going to give me the behavior that I need. But the props are going to both create and convey that criteria very quickly and early on in the process. And they're going to allow me to provide a strong history of reward early on in that process, build value in those behaviors very early on. But it's not props are not the be all and end all of training. I want to make sure people understand that they're a tool like any other tool that we use. And it's important that we understand their use, their purpose, that we understand the process of both their use and their removal, and that we use all of the other tools that are available to us as well to build behavior in the dog and maintain that behavior as well. Mm-hmm. You mentioned in there the fading process. How long do you usually keep that prop in the picture during training? I think it depends on the dog, always, and the behavior and the prop. So I know that sounds, I don't know, kind of like... The ultimate it depends? Yeah, the ultimate it depends. I guess it's always the ultimate it depends. But, I mean, that's really true. I can give you generalizations, though. I think it's like any training process. Any time that you are spending too much time at any point in the training process, if the dog is not progressing, then you're probably spending too much time there. I mean, you're probably... It's probably not being an effective tool for you, either because of its use or how you're using it. You're not moving ahead in the process.

So I would say, while I use props throughout my dog's training career, and I often will bring props back into the training process or back into the maintenance phase of behaviors, the initial phase of using a prop might be anywhere from three to six or eight sessions. I don't think you need to use it very long to start to build up a reward history. And that's really the primary purpose of the prop, is to build a reward history for the correct criteria, for the correct behavior. So you can create that accuracy and the precision without a lot of futzing around. And once you have that, once you've built a reward history, you want to start to remove that prop as soon in the process as you feel that you've built that reward history up for what you're trying to train. And that will vary. So to kind of talk through that as an example, right? So say I'm working on fronts, I've gotten, you know, the last two sessions, he's looked good on a prop for fronts, right? On a platform for fronts. You'd be starting to think already about other options? On two sessions? To two good sessions. Like you've done for the last two sessions. So I obviously introduced the prop, whatever. For the last two sessions, things have looked good. Yeah. If the dog already has some strong platform skills and maybe has gone through the process of using platforms for other positions, then it's possible that after two sessions I might start the process of adding a cue, which is the first step in the process of removing the prop. Before I start to add the cue, though, I want to make sure there are some other things in place with a platform, especially for a front, because I think, and I've talked about this before on some other workshops and webinars I've done, I think that a front behavior, it's interesting that you use that example, because I think the front behavior is probably the most difficult position to train and maintain. So for fronts, you might actually use the platform or the props quite a bit longer than I would for a heel side or other behaviors, because it's a very difficult behavior, I think, to train and maintain. So for fronts, I absolutely use multiple props to convey the criteria. The process from the point of starting with a prop to going to the step of even just adding the cue is going to have several steps as well. So I think for fronts, you're probably going to use the platform longer than two sessions before you start to add the cue. And then you're going to always be bringing in a platform back in and also combining it with some of the other props.

Again, if you're on, I'm going to use an example that I see a lot that I think people stay on for too long, and that's a pivot platform. I think that pivot platforms have a very specific purpose in my mind. The pivot platform teaches the dog how to shift his rear end with you when you are moving in any direction, really. That's the foundation skill. I think of the pivots on a pivot platform are the foundation for heel work and the dog remaining in heel while you are moving in any direction. And so that's a very specific purpose for a very specific prop. And I think that that can be met pretty quickly. I think that the pivot platform is one that most people tend to stay on for far too long and may not fully understand the process of removing it. And that's one of the reasons they stay on it for far too long. But that's a prop that I think you could easily remove within a half a dozen sessions, whereas props for the front behavior I think are a little bit more difficult. And so I would keep those props in place for a bit longer, quite a bit longer than that. And I would bring them back in on occasion. And the prop platform, you can bring that in on occasion. Believe me, the dog loves it when you bring a prop back in on occasion. It builds their confidence. It increases the rate of reward. And so it helps maintain that behavior. But I think that the pivot platform specifically, if we stay with it too long, it's very difficult for the dog to work pivots without it. Because the platform is a piece of the behavior that how can I possibly do a pivot if there's no place to put my front feet? And so the dog thinks of that as the behavior. They don't know the end result. They don't know we're trying to teach stay and heal when I make a left turn. That's not what is going on in their mind. They're thinking, oh, keep my feet on this thing. Keep my feet on this thing. Keep my feet on this thing. And so when we keep that prop in place for a long time and then we remove that prop, well, there's no place for the dog to put his feet. So he can't possibly do the behavior. So that's an example that I think we tend to stay with a prop too long. And fronts, we probably tend to remove it too early. So there's the answer to my that depends. It's all right. I only pulled fronts out because that's what I was working on before this. But it was my last training session. So you started to talk about the process for fading the prop, right? That you name it first. Name the behavior first. So let's talk about that just a little bit more.

How do you go about kind of what are the pieces there, at least the big pieces kind of in removing a prop from a behavior? So I think of three major steps. And in the workshop, we're going to be going over the step by steps and what you might expect and how to do it for different props. But before we remove the prop, remember the prop is a cue. Having the prop there tells the dog what to do. So before I remove a prop, I need to transfer that cue to a new cue. Some people might choose to use a throwaway cue. I don't. I use my final behavior cue. So I start to add the cue while the dog is still on the prop. Once I've done that, I can start the process of physically removing the prop. And that process is twofold. In that process, I'm both what I call ping-ponging the prop. I'm working with and without the prop, both in the same session. And the way that we remove a prop mid-session is very specific to that prop. So the way I remove a platform is different than the way I remove a training gate. But in both cases and in all cases of props, when we start that removal process, we want to ping-pong with and without all within the same session. And again, we're using our cue that we previously attached to the behavior when the prop was in place. The second part of that is that we have to be willing to accept a lower criteria, lesser criteria, than what the dog would give us if the prop were present. When the prop is present, we'll take a platform, for example, because that's easy. When the prop is there next to you, the dog is going to get up on the platform and he's going to be in a perfect heel position. When we remove that prop, he's not going to be in a perfect heel position that first rep after removing the prop. He's going to be a little bit like, whoa, where'd it go? So we want to make sure that when we remove the prop, we're doing it in a way that is very unobtrusive to the dog, that it's very seamless and it's almost invisible. We're removing it when the dog is looking away and getting the treat. So when he comes back in, we want to mark early before he realizes, oh, wait, where am I going? There's no prop here. So it's not that we want to accept a sloppier version of what he did on the prop. We don't want him to come all the way in to heel and be crooked and then mark that. But what we can do is we can mark an earlier criteria in that behavior. So as the dog is coming in, not waiting until he's all the way in heel, but as he's coming in on a correct trajectory, I can mark that because that is still a correct response to my cue.

I've just marked it and interrupted it a little bit early, but I haven't marked anything incorrect yet. Does that make sense? A lot of times I think what people do is they remove the prop. They wait, let's see platform again, they wait until the dog comes all the way in to heel and now he's crooked and they mark that. So I think that is an error that oftentimes makes it harder to remove the platform. Suddenly we're marking a criteria that we really don't want anymore. So we're going to do a combination where we're going through the process. We want to do a combination of ping-ponging the platform. And this goes back to just how I train in general where I want to make sure that I can provide easy reps. The dog gets a high rate of reward for correct responses. And then I do a little harder rep and then back to easy. So ping-ponging the platform not only shows the dog exactly what I want every few reps, but it also provides the reward, the reinforcement for exactly what I want. So easy, hard, easy, hard, with and without, with and without, all in the same session. And then when the platform is not down or the prop is not there, shaping that behavior back up, be willing to click sooner in the process rather than waiting for the full behavior, which is now likely to be inaccurate and imprecise because the prop is no longer there. And again, with the gates, it's a little bit different. Rather than pulling anything up, it's very difficult to just lift up a set of gates while your dog is facing the other direction or eating his treat. And so the process there is slightly different in that we are either moving out of the gates with each successive repetition or we are folding back a panel of the gates so that they are a smaller part, a smaller piece of a prop. So it's just a little bit different there. And even with the pivot platforms, there are two different ways. I remove a pivot platform and people will learn about those two different ways in the workshop. So for those of us out there who have dug ourselves a bit of a hole, you know, maybe use that pivot platform a little bit too long or a different prop, you know, for a different behavior. But there's still hope there. You know, how do we kind of salvage that behavior and get rid of the prop without, you know, causing undue amounts of frustration? Because obviously now the dog thinks the prop's the cue. Yeah. You've got a problem. Right. So the first thing I would do, and this sounds a little counterintuitive, but I would start using a different prop to train the same behavior.

And that's going to eliminate a lot of frustration right there because, remember, the prop shows the dog exactly what to do. So there's really no frustration there. And what we're doing is we are just finding a new way of reinforcing the same criteria that we wanted with the other prop. So the behavior and the criteria are still being reinforced, but we've now disentangled it from that previous prop. The more props you use in that way, if you can use three different props to convey the same information to the dog, then those props are not going to become attached to the behavior because they're just they aren't the salient piece of information. The salient piece of information is your marker for the correct criteria and the reinforcement you provide for the correct criteria. And your dog will start to see that across all props. So the first thing I would do if you're really stuck is I would train the behavior with a different prop. And I would build I would start putting more value into the criteria and making sure that you do have that behavior firmly on cue because you might have skipped that step. You might have been trying to remove the prop and not actually transferred the cue of the behavior to the new cue that you're going to be using without the prop. So those are the two things I would check first is start using a different prop and ensure that you've added the cue to the criteria that you want to maintain once you remove the prop. Gotcha. So the workshop, we've kind of mentioned it kind of sideways a couple of times, but seven days to drop that prop. It starts when this comes out. It'll be this Sunday, May 3rd. Can you just share a little more about kind of what you'll cover? What's what's included in the workshop? Mm hmm. Yeah, everything we just talked about. No, really, truly. We're going to talk about, again, what what are the best uses? We're going to do a step by step. So I take several different props and several different behaviors, because, as I said, it kind of depends a little bit. And I know that's not always intuitive for people on how to you know, if I just show how to remove a platform. Well, that might be a little bit difficult for you to take that information and then apply it to removing the gates. So we take several different behaviors and we take several different props and we take different props for the same behavior, even. And I go through a step by step of how to remove first how to add the cue, because I think people miss that part, how to add the cue and then how to remove the prop physically.

What are the things you need to consider when doing that? How to ping pong the prop in and out in the same session and how to shape back up the criteria and then how to maintain the criteria after you've removed the prop. So we're going to go through all of those steps. I have videos of different props, different behaviors, same props, different behaviors, same behaviors, different props. So all of that will be covered in the workshop. And then when people submit their homework videos, they can submit no matter where they are in that process. They might just be at the point of adding the cue to that process. And so I'll want to look at that and see how you're doing there. They might be at the process of the physical removal. How are they actually physically removing that prop? Because that's a mechanical skill for the handler. That's a lot more difficult, I think, than people realize is how do I actually pick up that prop? What do I do with that prop once I've picked it up? I've seen handlers grab the prop and then fling it across the room and the dog goes and chases the prop. So it's a mechanical skill of just the physical removal of the prop. So I want to see that. Shaping it back up. If you or your dog have difficulty with the concept of shaping, that's going to be something that maybe you want to practice. Because that is a part of successfully removing props from behaviors. So props show the dog the criteria. They allow you to build value in the behavior. But we also need to be willing to lower that criteria and shape the behavior back up when we start the process of removing that prop. So those things we're going to cover. And then is there kind of an ideal student or somebody, you know, kind of what skills does somebody need to have if they're interested in a working spot kind of heading into this? How to click that register button. Working spots are going to fill really quickly. So if you're debating about signing up, just do it no matter where you are in the process. So if you're using a prop right now and you're unsure of how you're going to separate it from the behavior, then you can sign up for this workshop. Again, it's good to have understanding and knowledge of the concept of shaping because you're going to use that. But don't let that stop you. If you feel like, gee, I just don't know how to shape or my dog doesn't shape well. Don't let that stop you from signing up from the workshop because we're going to talk about how to actually do that for this process.

So, yeah, if you're using a prop and you've been on it for, you know, I know people said, geez, I've been on this prop for a year. And I'm thinking like, oh, my gosh, well, what makes you think you're ever going to get off? It's very difficult. But if you've been on it for longer than a few weeks and you're not sure how to eliminate it from the process, you'll get that information in the workshop. Awesome. Is there anything else you should know if they're debating signing up? Nope, I don't think so. That's all the important bits, huh? That's the important bits. I really think that props have taken on a bigger and bigger role in our training the last several years. I've been using props for about, I don't know, 10, 12 years now. And it would be hard for me to train totally without props at this point. It would just take so much longer. The process would take so much longer for me. And if we're going to use props in our training, we need to understand the whole process. We need to understand the process of both using them to convey criteria, but we also need to understand the process of removing them in an efficient and very effective way so the dog can maintain that criteria even after the props are gone. All right. All right. So one last question, Julie, and it's the one that I'm asking kind of to round things out for all of my guests lately. So what's something that you have learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to training? So lately I've been doing a lot of different fun things with Fi, my younger dog. I'm working on making sure she finds value and joy in the training process. Um, I'm also working that she finds value and joy in certain behaviors such as healing, uh, because I want that to be a chosen default for her. And part of the way I'm doing that, uh, which is, I'm not going to say it's different for me because I've always wanted to make sure that my dogs found value and enjoyed their training. But, um, I'm training more things that may seem irrelevant in terms of my sport and my ultimate goals with her, uh, things that might seem like silly things to some people, um, teaching her to stick her snout in a bunch of different things. Um, I don't need to train scent work for any of the sports I'm involved in, but trying a little bit of scent work, uh, to kind of stretch my skills and, and, uh, allow her to enjoy that process, playing tug to touch games, teaching big outruns, a lot of tricks. Um, of course, all the focus games and some freestyle skills too.

But, um, I, I think for me, one of the things I've learned, uh, is that I want my, I really want my focus to be on just enjoying what we're doing and not get so hung up on making it perfect. And that's really hard for me. Uh, I, as a trainer, I tend to be very structured in my training. I tend to focus on mechanical skills of the handler. I tend to focus on, um, making sure that I'm progressing with my precision skills. And it's not that I'm letting go of that, but I just, I feel like, especially in this time of uncertainty and where we are at in the world, I just want to make sure. Oh gosh, I'm getting all choked up about this. I didn't expect to. Um, I just want to make sure that, um, both she and I are really enjoying this process. Uh, and, and that it's fun. And that in this time of her training where I'm wanting to really build a relationship with her so that, so that we can meet our goals and that in meeting those goals, we're actually enjoying it. So many people, I think they're, they're so goal oriented and they're, they're so driven to reach those goals that the training process can lose some of, um, the joy. That we started with, um, there's, there's plenty of time for perfection, but if we spend a lot of time on that at the beginning, um, it can easily take all the joy out of that process. And in the long run, we may not even, it may not get us to our, to our ultimate goals. So I'm, I'm kind of to keep me on track with that because like I said, that is really hard for me. I tend to be very structured in my training. Um, not that I don't have fun, but, uh, so keep me on track. I'm doing, um, uh, hashtag fun with fee and I'm posting a little snips of video on my personal page of fee and I doing and learning just silly fun little things together. So you might check that out. You can do a search hashtag fun with fee and all the videos will come up, but I'm trying to add one every day or every other day, every couple of days. So, so that's been kind of fun. That's awesome. Yeah, it is awesome. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Julie. Thank you. I love talking to you, Melissa. Aw, I like talking to you too. We should do it more often. We should. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Pitta Clark to talk about learning to understand, interpret, and predict behavior in your training and what it is about sniffing that's so dang good for dogs.

If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensounds.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Musico. Thank you.