Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 34: Louis Donald

but it's that's the the world with the dog dog you know that's the cool thing with the dogs we we meet every type of person we can imagine never me absolutely and and and what is really cool that we meet them on a different level where it's a it's not anything related to their business or it's just really a a very different atmosphere talking dogs is always a a LEL playing field yes exactly right no one's in charge um and like the uh two weeks ago Ian for me you know I'm sitting signing books and Gail prepares them gives me the book I open it okay who do I sign this to and here's me signing a book to George for foran of course how can you not right he here's me uh to my best friend George best wishes extraordinary is it he's one of the the really like the longtime die hard like like real German Shepherd men George for exactly so uh so a book went to him a couple of weeks ago yeah so I'll make the I mean I guess we already got going but I'll make the the introduction real quick and and we see where we take the conversation yeah you have a very beautiful view behind so good morning thank you where are you in Australia surface Paradise it looks like paradise right behind you it is so from from where we are here Ivan at the front of this property is a a big river the rang River uh boats going up and down out going to Sea and on the other side literally 2 minutes walk is the beach okay is that like what state like the Brisbane Queensland Queensland yeah uh 40 minutes uh on a aut bar to to Brisbane so it it's it's a good location so when I was setting the room up you remember I said do you what do you want the backdrop to be what it what it was Ivan the there are blinds behind me that I can pull down to the floor so all you would have is white but then when I put it I thought no it's not too distracting and it looked too sterile yes no it's beautiful I I love it I love it um all right everybody so we we kind of started the conversation already but uh this this is a training without conflict podcast number 34 and I get to talk to a very interesting and very knowledgeable person when it comes to German Shepherds uh Luis Donald he's from Australia he got his working judges license in like 1974 1978 became the uh Australian first SV judge and uh uh I believe the youngest at the time As we judge um he's been involved more than 50 years in the dog world and specifically German Shepherd dog he has a amazing

book um that I I don't even know if I can lift it that's just it's insane like what you've done with this I mean this is a a real treasure like this is something that for me for where I come from back in Eastern Europe we would dream because of lack of Internet we would dream to have any little pamplet of of any information about what's going on with the dogs and when I'm saying dogs back at that time even when you say dogs you you automatically refer to German Shepherd because that was the clearly the the the most well organized uh uh breeding program with some vision and and and and that's where the whole popularity became and that's where we're going to talk about so um I just want to welcome you and thank you for joining me for the conversation thank you Ivan it's a great pleasure I'm I'm um I I'm really looking forward to talking with you thank you so since we started about the book um and I'm going to have so many cool questions because as I said I grew up with yeah so I had a I had a uran fromer daughter uh which was very insanely difficult to have because that was Communist time that was the Berlin Wall time this this just cannot just happen like that you know having this from the ziger a a direct daughter coming to Bulgaria that that's not and on top of that me actually being able to I mean it was something kind of special at the time um but yeah it came through through the Czech Republic and whatever and so we I get to experience that but this was the time for me where uh yeah so you you I admire your whole ability to to have all this data like this is like I can train dogs but I and I breed I breed Malino for over 40 years but I would have problems breaking down my own pedigrees yes and and you seem to be so knowledgeable it's so F fascinating so I'm I'm ready to get educated and I have so many questions but I my time when I first got into dogs the the people that knew dogs they would be talking kto Quantum Ms and this this became became imprinted in me at the time and it never went away and I didn't even know what that meant at the time but with the passion the the dog people were talking about it I think that's what fascinated me and made me realize that there is something into this dog world that that is not just simple uh dog ownership right yes so the book is amazing I mean uh I I cannot recommend it I I I personally have never seen book like this not one I no no I mean I I I I have no idea how much work you put but this is this is a little treasure and and especially in today's time when you have internet and it seems like everything is right on your fingertips it's not quite like that

it's very different to have something a hard copy of of like like thousands of photographs and illustrations and uh I mean it's really like the the most comprehensive book I have seen on on any anything dogs um so like I mean congratulations on this and you're now on the second edition so I guess how how did I how much work and how did you even decide to to jump into this was it did you have this really humongous vision to to to create this or was it like I'm going to make a book and then it just kept going and going and how how did it all go uh yes that's a good question um if I if I go back to the beginning I guess the the earliest seeds Ivan uh for me thinking about writing a book uh not surprisingly as it would be with anyone that's passionate about anything and they become successful in that endeavor and I started uh I got my first German Shepherd dog when I was 15 years of age I'm now 76 so that was a long time ago and I was very fortunate that that was a good dog and I I bought his sister um and being 15 years of age the way I made the money was uh delivering newspapers at 4:00 in the morning and it would be four F 6 months 12 month salary to buy to buy a dog and I bought that dog's sister she was the first seag in a in Australia under a German judge uh so I started off with very good dogs and my kenel was very successful and so not surprisingly I as it would be with anybody friends would say uh Lou you should write a book uh you you're you're so successful Etc and probably um a large proportion of people that are involved in dogs and being successful they would have been uh uh propositioned as it were by friends even their mother you know you should write a book so that's where it started but in my mind you're dreaming the the the the the the idea of writing a book for me was well beyond what I felt my capabilities were uh so it was a nice uh thought but not something I ever took seriously and then and then um I used to go to Germany a lot every year for the SE show and this is now going back to around 1980 and I used to stay with Walter Martin of V our canels yeah and um and I was very fortunate that uh I was one of the few people that used to stay with him and his wife uh in in his home and go to the kennels every day walking with the dogs having dinner with him ET exactly having dinner and having this really can in real conversation this is this is priceless right there exactly like his favorite thing Vian was in the afternoon when the kennels were

cleaned um we would go to the Miramar SAA a big lake in vanheim with and he would go into the SAA uh and he liked to have a good Tad yeah and um and during one of those sessions we were sitting outside uh at the SAA and he said Louie you and I need to write a book together and you can imagine for me he's like God I know and he's saying to me I should write a book with him says a lot of course about uh our relationship and more importantly Ivan what he thought of me and my understanding of the dogs that's a big thing that's defitely so I said yes i' I'd like to do that but that would mean moving to Germany uh to write the book I had two kids but we looked at a a kennel uh in the vanheim conclave uh for me to buy but it all turned out logistically too difficult kids schooling Etc and uh all that happened he did then uh buy a book and wrote notes for the book to give to me because the basis of it was for Walter I did the work he did he did the managing I did the work so he wrote notes for me and quite a few of the things he he wrote are in the book and then he he he passed away of course uh prematurely that was the end of it and then about six years ago I was in Italy at the Italian Seager show and a very good friend of mine uh and also a dedicated lady to the breed in England Wendy Stevens who then owned iron gra dog food Wendy said to me Louie you need to write a book uh the book could be a legacy to to uh to both of us and to yourself but more importantly I've gained a lot benefited a lot uh in in in my association with dogs in so much as uh friends and the dogs uh and so on themselves and uh it' be great if you actually did this and at then 72 years of age you know you're running out of time and with her support uh financially that uh allowed me to seriously consider it and so I said right uh I'll write a book on the German Shepherd dog and I said what should the title be she said well it needs to be a book that covers absolutely everything across the whole Spectrum everything I get GBS just listening to this cuz that's that's that's already un insane pressure because this is an endless work I mean what you guys did this is this is of the roof of the charts like and I've never written a book to me anyone that writes a book has got to be really smart right really smart and in my head I'm not that smart but uh of course I've got dog books and I've got an idea of of of what what it means in that that broader context um and I said okay so uh you want me to write a book uh the definitive German

Shepherd dog covers everything uh and it does cover everything for everybody that is watching this like it truly covers everything from from from like wol all the way to to uh Locomotion and and movement and and dogs from n 1899 to the 21 or two and and this German dogs and all the confir I mean like every like when he says everything really is everything it's insane like it's insane and yes and of course if you think about it Ian uh you imagine you and I sitting talking and you're you're the you're the one that is proposing it to me and allowing it to happen um and you say Louie it needs to cover everything over to you what does that mean and so with that okay I'll do it and and uh Wendy would wanted me to complete it in 12 months wow to coincide with uh a large show in England anniversary show so I sat down gave some thought to how I might do it and made a decision that I would uh have Christmas holiday uh because it was late in the year then I'll have Christmas holidays fly fishing in Tasmania with my friends and on the 5th of January at 9 a.m. I start the book and because I have a management background uh with large companies with a lot of employees I'm highly disciplined you had the disciplined I was going to say that yes and so I knew without discipline nothing happens just blah blah blah blah correct so 9:00 I start that's luxury for me I was used to starting at 7 a.m. in and I'd retired that it's important of course I'd retired and I finish at 5: o00 and I do it six days a week until the book's finished yeah from 5: till 6 I play my guitars so the book took almost four years to write fulltime 9 till five six days a week for four years nonstop I I don't even know what to say to this because I i' I've I I wrote a book in the and it was just about it's called advaned Sho hunt and it was at the time right around the time when the the training approaches started to shift a little bit to more dog friendly so yes I designed it a little bit of a more of a program that reflected to that I I don't know maybe maybe it's 200 maybe Max 300 Pages maximum which is the normal good size book yeah I was I I think I quit at least three times as I was doing it I I was like so I have like utmost admiration like I'm absolutely mind blown of the work that you put in this and and and you know that's Legacy I mean that's going that that's I I'm I don't know it's it's amazing that you did it and congratul

for that and uh what what did you learn from spending that amount of time looking back into the breed because that's a that's a special time I think anybody that decides to write a book even if the book never gets published you you're you sit down with your thoughts and you're deeply into something of interest to you and I'm sure you finding things that are that have been always there but you never brought them out to yourself yeah yeah Ian you know the thing that we hear all the time in dogs is the cliche um you're never too old to learn more right we hear it all the time and the truth is 90% of people including judges who say that don't believe it they they believe they know everything that needs to be written but but it's nice to say uh I I'm always learning with me with me if I Quantified it so here's me writing the book and I'm recognized as an authority in the breed people are looking to me as the the senior judge the judges the judges lecturer and in quantifiable terms from starting the book to finishing it I probably in in in yeah in quantifiable terms I've learned at least 70% more than I knew when I started that is huge and every single day every single day I'm on the web looking for new things to learn and then when I find something interesting I'll put it on Facebook uh for people to read but if we go back if you don't mind if I go back to the beginning because I think it it's interesting and important so day one arrives 9:00 I'm sitting here in my study and I've got a big study with about 50 books dog books I've got them all and Gail was with me G sitting in the background listening come and say hello come and say hello because G is very involved as you know I'm sure she has to be I'm sure so uh I was sitting with Gail and I said okay I'm going to write this book I know the title that's it so I'm looking at my whole range of books and I pulled one down well what did um uh Malcolm Griffith write about uh Willis write about what did this one write about what did Ne Elliot right look at the index and Gail said look at the index smart so I looked at the index and with all due respect Malcolm Willis is different because that was purely genetics but in the the general dog books pretty well the same thing the beginning Von stefanet correct he's laying on the bank of the rine and he saw this dog and he had you know this VIs uh and then you've got a bit on Bloodlines feeding uh a bit on showing a couple of pedigrees pretty well all the same very much the difference between each book Ian I noticed was quite parochial if it was written in America say Strickland or or Fred lanting it had an American slant right if it was Germany

England it had an English slant the were nothing in my was Global but that's the way it was back then it was English German American yes uh throw stones at each other their dogs are terrible my dog's beautiful uh the the segregation now particularly my interest in the wsv as you saw in L in Spain is the universal German Shepherd dog there's one breed standard now if you have a preference to an exaggerated style that's cool for you if you prefer a dog that's for working uh and there a bit drier and less angulated good for you but don't try to split the breed into pieces for me it's one breed uh with different styles to reflect different functions and so uh I concluded that what was written I wasn't going to write another me too book it's all been said a thousand times just with a parial slant so what I need to do is do something a bit different so the first thing is definitive means I'm putting a lot more material than anybody else has and then the big one was this item and this is why the book is so big and it set the tone for everything I did I reflected back when I was 15 and I wanted to learn about German Shepherd dogs and so I'll buy a book and just a matter of Interest my prize possession was a slug gun and I sold the slug gun to buy the book an American book a a a good book uh quite a good book but very general I reflect back on that I thought when I was 15 I was so passionate wanted to learn but wanted to learn correctly uh what sort of book would I want if I was now 15 today a young child I'd want a book that I could if I was passionate and in my mind that passion is I'm going to be a judge maybe I'm going to be the best judge in the world I'm going to be the president of the s V if if if if that is an ambition that a young child had which is great what I want is a book that a child can understand what they need at that point in time but as they grow and their interest grows and their ability to comprehend technical issues grows the book will grow with them correct and so this is a book for a child that they will still be reading and using as a reference when they're my age very true that's one bit the other end of the spectrum is I want a book that a world breed expert a Loa qual a band Weber would want to buy because it would give them what they want in lecturing and so on and also and this is perhaps could be taken the wrong way they would learn things they didn't know shock horror when I say that things they didn't know at that time it was things I didn't know either but my research my reading of papers from scientists would give me

that information and the best example of the spectrum covering a child the hardest bit was The Locomotion chapter so when I was writing The Locomotion chapter the technical bit how much energy is used uh breaths per beat Etc not a problem I can handle that but how do I explain to a child how a dog with four legs walks trots and gallops how do I do that and the the the the the idea of how I would do it came about watching uh a child's movie like Lion King and I said to girl we need an animator because animators can take sticks and make them work so they know how the joints how everything works like no one else and so I contacted one of the leading am uh animators in the world wow um and he worked with me and wrote that chapter which starts with if a dog walked on sticks this is what would happen now we're going to add another two legs to it but now it's got to be bendy and that that's how that started but that expanded the book a lot either because really I was writing for two demographics and I remember when I asked Andrew brace who's one of the top bullbridge judges in the world and in England wrote a very good book himself and I said Andrew I'm going to write a book to satisfy a child to the world's expert he said Louie good luck with that no kidding I tell you that was just the initial concept Ian so now I've got the concept it covers everything it must be suitable for a child through to the world's leading expert that set the concept for it it's it's insane because when I when I got the book and and I'm like you know of course I I I already knew that it's a very true a work but I I'm busy I'm super busy so I kind of I just open random Pages here and there just to out of pure curiosity it take a year to read it probably guess guess what 3 hours later I'm like I need to stop I have things to [Music] do that's wonderful that's wonderful because uh uh U just as you said like you you you did a very good job with this and and guys this is not by no means any advertisement like like I truly what I mean uh about the work of of Louis and that book and like as you said the 15-year-old like you you basically described me like I'm like okay yeah I got a German shepherd and what do I feed it how much I mean I mean these are like immediate important questions and we can that are important even today even more so than before because now we are flooded with good and bad information and and you may be feeling something that they will convince you that it's the right thing to do which is very harmful in a lot of ways uh yes so that's that's uh that point is good you you mentioned

nutrition because that was another aspect that developed in the concept Ian um uh once i' started so it again if I go back just a little bit yes to the beginning so okay that's the concept and now I'll start really where everyone else started all the other books uh 99 SV Captain Von stefanet on the banks of the Rind dog trotting around wonderful I'm going to create the super German Shepherd dog and that's where the they all start yes that's the beginning that's where I'll start but because uh I'm well known Ian for being someone who loves telling a story and and I often get criticized because Louie never shuts up it's like see that microphone love that right that that's one of my favorite things so for most dog people it's don't let Lou near a microphone and to me uh I like stories and analogies because they're memorable yes uh and I don't believe in the approach of if I tell you then it must be true don't question what I've told you I'll tell you what I think and explain why I'm saying it and then you use your own intelligence to work out whether you think it's correct or not so I'll start with uh Von stefanet laying on the banks of the Rind and having his vision is Epiphany so I did that and then and and I knew because I I felt what I want and I said this in the book is the way I write the book is that it's h an interesting journey and a story and the biggest heaviest aspect in that regard Ivan of making something interesting is the breeds development 1899 to now 30 years of Development I've got books that people have written just on that right right the whole 130 years Bloodlines pedigrees whatever I got their book I got the book it took me an hour to read it and it was mind numbing the same stuff over and over and all blah blah blah blah and there was Freddy and Jim and John on and blah blah so I thought how do I make it interesting that people will want to read it I have to have a storyline through it and so I started with um 1899 the first dog and then working through it developing through it Von stepan's work I went into a lot of German magazines a lot of books and found stories for example and this is what's filtered all the way through it to make it interesting one story that comes to mind a particular dog that Von stefanet wanted to be Seager but character was important at that particularly important at that time and so he rang and this is in the book so the story is he Rings the owner of the dog tells him to bring the dog to his kennels in grafrath so he can assess the dog's character before the Seager show and if his character is up to it he'll be the Seager so the dog and the owner arrive and say this is part the

way the whole book is written so it's not just here's the dog he was the seure here's his pedigree blah blah next one so the dog arrives Von stefanet of course is a um uh uh a a Cavalry Captain horse Horseman so he has his riding area there Bon stefanet tells the owner to put the dog into a down position at the other end of the Arena off the lead and walk away Von stefanet gets on his horse rides the horse charges the horse toward the dog as the horse passes the dog the dog the dog jumped up and grabbed the horse by the neck V stefanet hit the dog on the head to make him drop off and he did and he said perfect and he made him the now for today of course in this environment people would be shocked by that um but if you go back to that period you can understand it more what the dogs were doing then but the issue here Al and I think is more to do with there's the story correct as opposed to correct Fred Seager 908 here's his photo next that's very different is that and so in the beginning I say that the way I want the book to be in that early part is like you're in a time machine sitting in that time machine the wheel starts spinning and I wanted to write it as so you were sitting in the time machine watching it all go by that's how I wrote it you did it you really did it yeah and then something I didn't think about Ivan was how would I grow and develop as a writer I didn't think about that it never occurred to me that Louis Donald would have it particular style an interest that Lou Don doesn't even know yet correct never occurred to me and this is what happened and this had a big impact on the book that I think's very positive Ivan so I complete the Von Stefan it's on the rine and the the dogs came from uh uh different regions of Germany the stuff we've all heard before right with the one with a soft ear one with a curly T blah blah then for me and this now is me coming forward my personality and character which I didn't know so where did those dogs come from where did that Schwan dog come from and the chingan dog where did they come from so I did research on that most of it in German so I had to get it translated oh and that eventually of course goes back to early hering dogs in Germany which we know about I do all that these are the main ones and photos of them that's why there's I think 750 photographs then for me it's but where did they come from so I do they came from the gry wolf great so where did the gray wolf come from Antarctica region and across the Bearing Sea when you could go across it into North America and they're the gray wolves great I do all that then in my head so

where did the gray wolves come from and that's why the beginning of the chapter of breed development starts with a little tiny ferity dog uh ferity animal via that was the first uh carnivore carnivore teeth so I the book starts with the planet is in ice the Melt animals come forward and the book starts the the beginning of the breed development is the first carnivore on planet Earth and that worked all the way through Ivan eyes we've all got it eyes are arm and shape dark blah blah I do that but then I want to know how does the eye work what are the colors they can dog can see how does the eye work within the brain and that is carried right through the whole book it really is and you know what like I um I have a school for dog trainers and I have a I have books that I recommend and I have mandatory books and and you work is going into the mandatory you must read this thank you if you're going to be if you're going to be in any way a a a dog trainer or or or a um in any way doing anything with dogs on a higher level than just just a hobby aage internet scrolling and browsing it has to be read few times and going back when you need it you can go back when you need it that that's and that's the important thing that it can be used as a reference source 100% and uh again that that leads me because there's so many stories I could tell including incidentally when you were saying the three or four times you almost gave up I can't count how many times my brain was fried because after four years I'll be writing something about uh the lungs the heart whatever and think I think I wrote about this m three years ago but I can't find it um and it got to a point where I lost count of how many times I said the G and Wendy I I can't go on with it it's killing me and you would know this anyone that writes a book I say that my brain was applied to it from nine to five six days a week for four years it was 24 hours a day seven days a week even now even now that's all I dream about sleep about think about right uh is the book and how it could be improved um so the the other part that uh comes to mind when you say how much value you see in it Ivan of course my background is primarily show dogs because in Australia we don't do IG p and so on as you know it's it's a problem here with the government um so is to a fair extent show Orient Ed because that is my AA of expertise uh but as the definitive German Shepherd dog everything has to be included and so the beginning of the breed all those sorts of things no problem uh judging I'm an SV judge and as you say at that time the youngest one in the world

yes um uh uh so judging TR basic obedience I was a a training instructor I could do that and then then I got to nutrition but I'm not an expert in nutrition so this was how it evolved Ivan and how I grew with it I'm not an expert but this is the definitive German Shepherd dog and if someone is going to read the chapter on nutrition it's got to be right yes they I spoke to Wendy and uh so the nutritionist fren gra she wrote the chapter on nutrition and then that triggered further events I've got to have genetics I'm not a geneticist and so a very good friend of mine was the late Dr Malcolm Willis who wrote his two books on genetics and I contacted his widow who I know well and with her agreement I took everything I needed from his two books dedicated to him and that is the chapter in on genetics and then the next one was Veterinary it's got to be it's got the book's got to cover everything within reason on Veterinary so I contacted one of Australia's top veterinarians Dr Karen Hedberg she wrote an excellent book on Veterinary uh issues and she allowed me to take everything I wanted from her book and that is now in my book dedicated to her so when it came to specialized things then I used people that I consider to be people in the world uh when I got to igp that was particularly difficult because I I'm I don't have any friends really in igp there's very little experience here so I had to go overseas including getting photographs and I went to Brian johy in America yes and he gave me his photographs and incidentally through through his recommendation uh we sold about 150 books just through his recommendation and so one of the things that evolved from that expertise in each area that I didn't expect Ivan me initially it's most of the sales go to showd dog people at this point 80% of all sales have gone to igp obedience service police dog uh family uh owners right right that is where most of the books are going yeah I mean I mean it's like it's a it's for sure like you can tell like even you you can you really see it in the book that there is there is a lot of contribution from different experts on their own field and it's the only way if if you if it as you said it's going to be the definitive it it cannot be any other way and it's a yeah I mean crazy crazy project and you you accomplished that and Brian I mean like you I guess this was the cool thing

about living in today's time where internet is available and we can we can get in touch with people that even we don't know and uh yeah I mean Brian is also I mean the pictures of like like all the illustrations all the just as you said I mean Everything Is Beautiful about the book there is it's hard to to say anything to criticize it one one of the um difficult most difficult things that evolved was that I pictured a dog's head on the cover typically right right can't have a full length dog because it doesn't work it's a head so because I've taken a lot of photos in Germany thousands all the VA dogs VA [ __ ] I've got nearly all of them now I'm putting on the cover but when I actually go to look at the head the head even though it's a Sega it's got all these problems you're finding something you tend not to think about it in that minut eye and with a critical eye until uh now it's going to feature on the cover so the best photograph I had uh was a female a really great shot and I put that on the cover did the artwork and then I showed it to a few people including uh uh will gaale and a few other um German Shepherd dog judges and the response was lovely but the ears are a bit big the eyes are a bit r bit of this bit of that and it's like but that's they've all got their problems yes but Louie this is the definitive German Shepherd dog and no matter you put inside the cover this is a photo of a real animal people aren't going to read that it's Louis Donald is saying this is a a great head look at its ears look at its eyes whatever look at its slips and so uh I concluded that what I needed to do was contract someone that I consider to be one of the leading artists animal dog artists in the world to paint my ideal German shepher dog head and so I contracted uh contacted a lady in uh Canada col theal who's one of the top animal artists in the world and I sent her 11 of the best German Shepherd dog heads that I personally photographed in Germany eight of those were seagar and seag and from that the head that you see there is a collage of 11 of the best German dog heads that I could find that is it incredible then then Ian of course I get to the next bit where I've got to show an example of what I

consider to be the ideal as per the standard German Shepherd dog in total m mhm no perfect German Shepherd exists and to be honest in my opinion uh we had German Shepherd dogs in Germany that were closer to the breed standard more of them 20 years ago than we have today so now I have to construct the ideal German Shepherd dog from the breed standard not what I like not what you like and so uh I put all that together and gave it to uh Colette and she produced the painting which is my painting of what I consider to be the breed standards ideal German Shepherd dog and that's in the book how is uh how how is that the German Shepherd became the dog of the world at that time what what what caused that because I mean again as a Malino breeder I know Malinois well not Malino but the Belgian Shepherd Club was a little bit like maybe 15 years or whatever before the German Shepherd started um but somehow everybody from day one got so intrigued by the German Shepherd dog at the time and it's we still how it is yeah um that that's a very good question uh the I think the basis of it of the question the answer to the question has to be if we go back to that early period when the breed was created which was uh 1899 but 1900 and the BR pedigree dogs had become very popular in England and that is where pedigree dogs first started so the first Pedigree dog in the world started in England not surprisingly it was a gun dog because gun dogs were so pop popular and they would have gun dog shows and then other breeds developed um and what kicked it along so this is digressing a little bit then we go to Germany sure what Ked along was when the the dog fighting was very popular in England and the the government outlawed dog fights and so all these people that had dogs that used to fight or you can almost relate to dog shows right but they were fighting dogs yes what do we do now what are we going to do now and so they said well how about we'll bring them all together on Friday night down at the local pub and Freddy who knows about dogs he'll look at all our fighting dogs and say that if they had fight based on what he can see which one he he believes would win gets first prize and that's how it all started in

England really from uh opening out into a broader Spectrum uh from dogs that were used for the gun the dogs that were used for dog fights developing and and broadening out into that broader field then other countries took an interest in it including Germany so Von stefanet Captain Von stefanut who created the breed as you know he took all his initial information from England so the pedigrees how pedigrees were composed uh Bloodlines how breeding was done how the create a new breed you had to do in breeding brother to sister yes you had to close the genetic pool he got all he got all that information from England so that if you like the the the first raindrop for the German Shepherd dog started with a thought from Captain Von stefanut the Cavalry captain and his knowledge of what dogs were doing in England that's how it started so then he embarked on uh his own program to create his own breed at that time because uh dog sport fighting and so on had been banned that became a very popular Pastime for a lot of people in the beginning only the wealthy if you look at photographs from those early periods Ian the women are actually in look like what an our dressing gowns with Hats it was for the wealthy and the privileged that's how it started Von stefanet came from the privileged class and in fact Von Stefan's book has a number of things in there that are quite racist uh he was the privileged class so Fon stefanet came into the creation of a breed when other breeds were being created and it was becoming very popular worldwide so it wasn't just the German Shepherd starting off in an embryonic State and growing and developing that was happening with lots of other breeds at the same time uh many many of the breeds uh that we associate with German breeds uh all started at about the same time correct yes so so it wasn't just him other people were doing it as well with other breeds boxes bul everything yeah um the difference was that Bon stefanet had created had a a a vision and created a breed of dog that had more use to human beings than a lot of the other dogs that were just specific for a task chasing foxes uh going down holes daxon to borrow out a badger um his dog had broader application uh sheep dog yes but also a guarding dog guarding dog yeah and he was a clever guy he was a clever guy because he started the breed in 1899 it's stablished the breed standard in

1900 by 1901 he's got an organization that's clicking along and he's he's running it and he was a dictator he was a dictator he took no prisoners he was right if he was said he was right he was right with very German y but it gets results everybody get in line we're pulling together so uh he by the third year he had established his guidelines he had an idea of what he was after because he had written the breed standard it's height and so on not as tight as it is now it was more open but in the fourth year he was very astute and clever he realized the only way that he could make his breed of dog the super dog a truly super dog and more popular is if he could convince the police to take the dog on as a police dog initially they knocked him back they did they said no no no uh they had Great Danes and things like that I think but he convinced them that they should try the German shepher dog's police dog hugely successful and as you know um uh there was a period even in England 30 years ago they didn't call them German Shepherd dogs they were called police dogs right in America police dogs so that if you like Von stefanut had fired as Cannon and the sh was coming out at a good rate when he decided it needed a an extra boost he brought the police into it and it took off it took off from there and because he was so good at organizing that was his skill because of his background as a Cavalry Captain uh he was able to keep the organization tight and see it grow mhm and of course eventually to get back to your question or your comment at the beginning that resulted in the German Shepherd dog uh or as it was in England in those days Alan and that's another story right um became the numerically uh the most popular dog in the world but what you need to keep in mind Ivan is all the other breeds were moving along with it MH German Shepherd was the biggest one because it had more use and and it's more attractive because underneath it I think human beings are fascinated by wild dogs and particularly the wolf the the the Primitive aspect of it yeah it's like as a human being and now we're getting into a pretty heavy area right right but as a human being and I've read material on this that as a human being we have inherently at a subconscious level right right right hu respect for wolves and the reason for that doesn't need explanation what surprising is that we could still have that respect after all these years coming from almost when we were it's still there and we're fascinated by

it and that had huge appeal Von stefanet knew that but he had a problem and the problem was that whilst we as human beings have a a regard and a Fascination for wolves pricked ears as opposed to passivity passive is floppy is so we drawn to that yes the intelligence it brings forward we're fascinated by it and the stories of wolves so that's great but what F Stefan learned very quickly was there's also side of that that creates fear in people they'll bite you if you Corner them they they they'll attack you so what he wanted and this was a fascinating thing that I uh a journey I went through in learning about his early days and a lot of it came from Material his daughter wrote ha of Fon stefanet that isn't available generally and it's all in German that Fon stefanet wanted all those attractive elements crck deers the the the things that a wolf had but he knew that there are elements that human beings fear therefore he has to remove them from the equation and he did that so if you have a look at the ears on a German Shepherd are twice the size of a wolf the eyes are dark breach standard says the eyes are dark as dark as possible a wolf has yellow eyes correct you so if you have two German Shepherd dogs walk up to you Ivan and one's got yellow eyes and one's got dark eyes and I say to you you're choice which one you Pat yeah it's very true that there's no question about you be patting the one with the yellow eyes yes that's within you yeah within you yeah that's basic evolutionary psychology it's that's exactly right exactly Eagles have yellow eyes all the Predators have yellow eyes so Von stefanut learned very quickly we don't want yellow eyes dark eyes see that's so interesting you know why cuz I like way back when I was still in Bulgaria and I got into the dogs and I got into through the German Shepherds and eventually I became a judge not too many people I I just like a confirmation judge and I had to learn confirmation and it was uh like a it wasn't a specific breed it was like we had it back in Bulgaria was uh like covering pretty much the whole hering breeds as a as a combination and I wish somebody would talk about the ice like this at the time because clearly we we were like yeah there is something that we don't like but but nobody ever was like why why your eyes as you know you think of a predator oh yeah whether it's got wings or legs it's go straight through you into your soul what what are the color what are the eye what's the eye color of the devil yellow wow right so inherently uh we have a fear of that of of that color and so he he then said the eyes need to be dark uh and the ears the larger ears

slightly higher set gave her a softer impression to the dog um that if if you uh take the wolf from the front they're very very narrow in front and so he insisted that there there was an opening so the legs were straight that was a visual thing the truth is in in in its native uh uh environment with a wolf or any dog going through snow the the narrow chest uh allows to travel through the snow better yes but aesthetically aesthetically uh it looks better if they're straight and so he did some tweaking and and uh and So eventually uh because of seeing eye dogs um police dogs Von stefanut was a smart guy what he knew was that what you have to do is have the dog used by people who provide a service to mankind give it a real Outlet yeah and the and and and so in a in effect in the fourth year the German Shepherd dog in truth almost became as much a police dog as a sheep hurting dog well where where does it and I know I'm I I'm certain that I'm going to read it several times in the book but I I'm sure I'm not the only one that have that question where did it became the the was was it like a a definite moment in time when the preferences started to kind of differ of of you know more like working dog show dog yeah yeah like my I I always sometimes I I just kind of sit down and and go through this in my head and trying to to figure it out and it's a it it's got to be very interesting uh uh uh situation because I I am a trainer so I I appreciate very much training ability and temperament but temperament and training ability without proper structure is useless as we know and at the same time just as we were talking with the eyes like in humans we like and we appreciate Beauty yes we we do like it or not it we do and it's not a bad thing but how what what happened like how how where did there has to be a moment in time right that or or was it a very gradual thing the division yeah between working dog and show dog yeah yeah um I think uh yes and that is covered in the book so if you if you go back just to the beginning um for Von Stefan it's a sheep hurting um protection dog um more sheep hurting than protection um that and and I often make this comment to people because I I was about to say we know but that's being presumptive I know I I I

believe that uh if confirmation German Shepherd dogs in in the context of confirmation have become exaggerated which they have that's also applied in in the working dog area 100% the exaggeration is character you know the the is the character so both sides need winding back yeah but that's inevitable isn't it that no matter who designs something human nature is to make it bigger and better right right right make it bigger and better make it bigger and bigger and bigger and better and that's what's happened to the breed so if we go back to the beginning Bon stefanut saw the breed as a sheep hering um protection dog in the context of protecting the sheep and the Sheep herder um uh not necessar not as a police dog which it evolved to but in the in the beginning it was a ship herting tending tending sheep hurting uh dog with protective instincts um wolves to keep Wolves Away thieves away that was really it right that's they were for then uh when he Incorporated the police which was a very clever marketing move like stroke of Genius like he was no no deal uh like he's authoritarian my way of the highway he would have been Dreadful to live with I'm sure but um he he he when he made that decision whether he liked it or not he was bringing in a a change from a dog with uh inherent protective aptitude to one that was more developed the police work so there's a tradeoff so he's going to make the dog more popular and I i' guess Ian in numerical terms he probably doubled the the the number of people who were interested in the breed yeah the police dog that's what took it to American all over the world correct so was a good move but what's the connotation of a police dog for most people you can go on all you like about I won't bite you unless I tell it to yeah tell someone else that you know I can tell the way he's looking at me so there's no doubt the irony was that his introduction of the police to make the dog more popular also created the problem of uh it started the division between show dog working dog including character because very few people even though I'm sure police dogs are fine inside uh with normal you know people coming and going the perception for people is that a police dog you've got to be careful yeah it's so it's the perception that change this benign lovely dog who loves sheep hey you couldn't get any better than that this dog loves sheep to one that the police are using uh to apprehend uh uh villains and so on so changed the psyche a bit then uh and that was very very early on

within four years then uh and this is in my book in I think it was 1918 Bon stefanet stated at a meeting in in Germany that he had become aware that there was a division being created within the breed between working dog uh um uh owners and showd dog owners wow he he he I think it was he already recognized that there was already a thing going on there's a division in the breed uh occurring and he was very concerned about that uh and um he he didn't go into a lot of detail in any of his writings and I have a lot of writings that aren't in his book he he didn't go into a lot of detail about how he tried to bring them back together but what he certainly said was and what is uh we know up until right up until his death he couldn't bring back together he found it very upsetting he was very distressed about it but once the division started no matter what he did he couldn't repair it and it's got wider ever since so you could say the division effectively started noticeably by Von stefanits uh around about 1920 and no one but no one wow has been able to bring it back it's got wider it's got wider and when I say wider if you think of well what what the two elements that cause you to decide where the Gap is show dog is confirmation working dog is character drives those sorts of things so a lot of the working dogs have become aggressive too aggressive aggressive for sure any twist you want to put on it right it work dog person would find a nicer word than me um but we'll just say getting too aggressive show dogs over angulated with a curve of the back becoming a caricature of themselves The Gap is now triple what it was in 1920 and getting wider every day true and that that has that has had an impact on the breed's popularity because today a lot of people see the German Shepherd dog and now I'm talking about the show dog funny enough if you're talking to someone in the street they tend to relate to the show dog don't they not the working dog correct yeah it's a show dog that for them it's an unhealthy breed Racers said half dog half frog and a bit over the top but we know what he means uh Professor Mesler used that analogy including a painting of a half dog half frog and lamama and we know that the dogs are becoming over angulated they're unsound behind and their character their character in my opinion show dog character is also diminishing as much as the other side is increasing in the context of aggression correct so the Divide is getting wider and wider and wider that was a challenge for me Ivan I wanted to write a book that

wasn't prejudicial that wasn't judgmental that saw everybody's side yeah the the the the dog uh and I might it Gale G can you just grab me my dog hear me so the dog Ian when when I was writing the book and I got to the chapter of anatomy I thought wouldn't it be great if I could actually create my interpretation of the ideal German Shepherd dog now because of proportions shorter and longer in the middle in in the in that Central position wouldn't it be great if I could get a painting done that was so good it was lifelike the say if you objectively not with all your bias if you stand back and read the breed standard and put all your bias aside how your dog looks and how your friend's dog looks all of that what would the dog look like no one has ever done that before there are lots of paintings of dogs but not with that brief that is a big brief that is Ivan a very expensive brief by the way and so yeah there it is yeah I saw this yes that actually y there it is y yeah so what we need to do on both sides is come closer bring the pendulum back closer to the center I'm not sure that in the showd dog area in Germany that that's possible uh because I think the that the people in Germany that are involved in the show seen judges and and um successful exhibitors are so used to the style that they've got which is exaggerated style right it's not working dog style it's show dog style they are so entrenched into that in their mind there is no going back yeah unless unless someone within the SV makes some very very hard decisions as Von Stefan's did in about 1924 or five I think the dogs were getting too big so you think of how this would go down today Ivan B stefanut is there he's got all these dogs that have been winning for years and he's concerned they're getting too big some of the top winning dogs are 6869 cm and uh and 65 is the maximum they're horses but anatomically lovely but they're horses yes Bon stefanut is putting them up too so Bon stefanut decides we have to bring the height down in his mind and I think rightfully dog people don't get subtlety correct dog people need a sledgehammer right in the middle of the head Right Between the Eyes whack and if they're

still blinking give them another whack then they get it subtlety goes nowhere so F stefanut in that vein decided at the next Seager show I'm not going to bring the dog back to Middle height I'm going to bring it back to the low height h to make the point and so here you've got all these dogs coming in average size is 65 66 some are 68 some are 69 some of them are VA dogs from the previous year right and he pulls a dog out that's 61.5 CM high in that company would look like a dwarf right right right right and that's fascinating because this particular problem it's a problem today too like controlling the height this is this is an ongoing thing since I didn't know correct and so he no subtlety no as it is now this is what I hear all the time Ivan it takes time why don't you fix it it takes time what what what these senior people are saying is I'm not going to do it the BL behind me can do it I'll I'll set the groundwork I'll leave it to someone else and so nothing ever happens and so what Fon Stefan did created uproar he was boed in the ring he was boed in the ring interesting uh all these you imagine it's all half the VA dogs left the ring walked out there was uproar but he fixed the problem of [Music] height no one no one is brave enough today to do that it's longterm plan we'll work on it the trouble is Ivan people become accustomed to it right see but you you you you're growing up with a with a specific image and that's normal right what do you see today that if there are 10 VA dogs in Germany 80% of those people that are at the that show have been around not much more than 10 12 years I suppose the majority and for them that's normal so when I come on in my book and lectures and say this is the correct H angulation for the majority it's it's under angulated right and if the most senior judge in the SV says it's not then it's not yeah yeah who Am I who am I Ian very true that's so interesting you know like I again I I'm a Malino breeder I've been breeding them since 89 but I started with German shepherd just like probably most people start with German Shepherds and I I bounce from from the one side to the other side I told you I had a uran daughter then um I actually I don't know was it 2007 or 8 I I did show uh a show sheeper that I got from Brazil at the wsv in igp tre um and I I love that dog and he goes all the way I mean he was from Brazil so

there was you know I mean but if if any dog of significance there would be what was his name like Valium V arminius or some something that again it wasn't but but clearly like when you look at him it was a show dog then I had a dog I had a uh uh um in the '90s I had a ticker hook and it was U I don't know I mean I'm sure you you know way more again like even with Malino Alliance I I am not that great with my mind um but it was uh Yoshi and Troll and like it was it was a a very interesting working dog line and ended up having back problems which in the '90s started to become a a we started to see more and more of it but with the Malin noas something interesting happened in Germany they they had that they decided to have a Kon a breed test right for everybody that doesn't know what and they started to select more and more character and temperament within very short time the Malino became very different in Germany than than what what Belgian dogs look like they become very how to say like a thin thin nerves like very reactive very uh impulsive like not you know again like when you do that P pendulum when you breed for for beauty and conformation and you you're pushing it too far you definitely as you said you can push it and they did push it that far to where character became very Twitchy and pretty you know it took them probably 10 15 years and now they're trying to they realize that that's there has to be we have to come back to something we cannot go and go and go it's going to break there is will be a break point but what was interesting and I think this is a very cool thing about dogs and in in most of the like the lifespan of the dog we all wish that it's longer right but at the same time because it's so short we can within few Generations we can we can set it back we can reset it if we want to if we collectively come to some decision it is possible but as you said it it's not a somehow it's a very difficult thing because yeah yeah it it it is it is difficult um and I I I think if I look back definitely one of the problems is that the the the the the primary discipline for maintaining the breed in terms terms of anatomy character fertility right and Longevity fertility fertility is going down yes now and Longevity as well it's important it's super important correct uh the diseases are developing and a big part of that is because the breeding is too close you look at the last seure show

I think the va1 2 3 4 were uh all very very closely related at a time when we should be opening the breed out but hasn't this been a problem throughout like even and again you you you you go way back like I where I started with you know with uh I mean quando Vos and and uran those were really like the truly like my time when I was like wow this is crazy and they both won back to back in the 80s the the ziger shows but then before them there were the um uh what was it the the quand arm minus and and no gosh I'm so bad with the names but there were two other dogs the VIN out dogs right before them like in the 70s right and already then the the the as we started to focus on on very yeah closeness yeah because I I we often talk about lime breeding versus inbreeding and really it's all inbreeding it's just degree but it always it's it it sounds better if you say line breeding there's something nicer about that right otherwise it's a bit incestuous right it it starts to think of like the the the Kings and the the yeah exactly because we'll end up with three noses yes yes yes yeah the the the person that was responsible for legitimizing bringing the Bloodlines too narrow with him and Martin Martin right absolutely um see if you if you go prior to him forgetting Peter uh Mesler was there for a little bit and a couple of others I think I think of Dr Roma and Dr R was like the old guard Funk and so on everything's long-term Vision the Von stefanet principles maintained which included having open some open breed so you had MZ Quanto Marco and that's what that's like early 70s right or or where is correct exactly I think 72 was Marco time yeah and I and I had dinner three times with Dr rumel and talking to him about what he was doing in the Bloodlines because I was the president of the German shepher dog Council then I was its president for 20 years and so he gave me some insight into it and he recognized he said to me he recognized that Marco in terms of showd dog and and it's the wrong word but glamorous dog Marco was the least producer of the the that attractive dog he didn't catch the eye he represented he represented the working lines M right therefore he needed to be maintained so from what I know in talking to Dr rumel he recognized that Quanto and Kanto not so much muds quondo and kandoo were producing attractive dogs attractive in

that most German shepherd dog enthusiasts are fascinated by the length of the ground cover of course in their mind there is no limit but in truth there is a limit where you go to a certain distance beyond that it's counterproductive corre but for most people if they could take off and not touch the ground for 50 meters that'll be just brilliant so the the the the thing that pleased everyone with particularly Kanto was that he had some stretch in the body and he uh connected well with Quanto gave the color and a bit of strength but gave good ground cover with Ral Ral saw that as needed but he also saw the working requirement is the foundation The Rock to it all and that's why he had Marco there when Hammond took over in the discussions I had with Hammond he said that he respected Romo and wanted to R retain Marco within the mix as much out of respect as anything else and he told me that's why intended keeping Marco uh progeny within the mix in my opinion he had no intention of doing that at all what he was telling me is what you would like yeah yeah so for him Marco and everything he produced where for rumel that was important in grounding the breed and keeping it tight to its roots of being a working dog Hammon didn't have the same empathy there and with Walter who was very much the show dog sitting on his shoulder what happened was inevitable the first Zager show that Hamond did on his own and I've got it in the book and I think from memory in the top 14 vas 13 were either direct indirect or carrying the lines of Quanto and Kanto yeah sure yeah yeah Hammond brought the breed virtually totally two dogs yes yes the two dogs and that is where the the ma the biggest change in the road for the breed occurred was with Hammon having said that Hammon and Walter did have the the the um the working attributes of the breed at heart and even though they brought in some degree of um exaggeration is the wrong word a little bit of G of Showmanship they still respected the need for the dog to be a working dog so people I find too many people today blame Walter and hamon on allowing the breed to become exaggerated and over angulated in the hind

quarter but that isn't fair people did that after hymon uh hyon's period what do you think about the the idea of the universal ziger like the idea is right but but it's been for a while now yeah it's still in my opinion as much as again I don't I I'm I'm not all invested in but but it's still after so long it seems like it's a good idea it's a good attempt but it somehow it cannot get the important sides the the the the one of the extremes it doesn't want it cannot bring them still somehow together yeah I um I I agree with that and and if you go back to something that you often hear Ivan is they should M and and we know what we mean when we say working dog show dog right right should make working dog show dogs and that'll fix the problem it's a bit like the ideal color is gray so we we're saying gray is the ideal color I'm not talking about uh I'm talking generic gray not dog gray gray is the ideal problem we've got is they're all half of them are black and half of them are white right so what we need to do is m m put those two together and we'll get gray the problem with that in in in the context of analogy to the breed and Professor Mesler in Lama in Spain asked me during a coffee break Louie what do you think about about the idea of working dogs Ming them to show dogs and that's how we're going to fix the problem what what do you think of that because you often hear it right and I said look my opinion on that is this that you could do that in a programmed way not just igly Piggly but in a in a sensible way so as a kennel you're kenen so you're going to do it right you're going to get some gray ones if you're like working gray some show dog black and gos black and tans don't exist in the ring anymore Grays are almost gone in the show ring so gold black rich black and gold sometimes rot Viet yeah colored yeah yeah make them together and problems fixed and I said to Professor Mesler that you could do that and you could end up with the universal dog and it would take you between 50 and 60 years who's going to be around in 60 years and tell me someone that would be prepared to do that now knowing they're not going to be here in 50 to 60 years correct and if you're actively engaged in the show ring you're not going to be interested in doing it for 5 seconds never 50 years and the same in the working area so my Approach which is in the book is respect that there is a breed standard

within the breed standard there is latitude whilst the breed standard is based on the ideal dog that and that painting is based on that an arms length it's not painting of the dog I like in that context it's they're the specifications yeah and if you don't like it you don't like the specification so it's not my my ideal it's the breed standards ideal created into a painting So if you look at what igp dogs do and you look at what show dogs do they're two very different things yeah for a start today unlike the days of past show dogs two three times a lap around the ring for a dog that's like walking from the back door to the front door and so the need for athletic is Fitness it it just doesn't exist anymore right but nor is it really needed in truth like one of the most important things in a working dog is muscle and muscle development and the only way that you can assess muscle size and firmness and development is to feel it and we don't take the dog in the show ring and there's no way you can see muscle development through hair particularly with a long coat it's not possible where that stems from Ivan is in the days of on stefanet and Dr Funk the dogs walked trotted had a drink walk trotted had a drink run Trot walk got six seven hours over two days you didn't need to touch them you knew they were fit of the word now we should be feeling them but we don't because that isn't what we do in our rarified um domain of being a specialist judge however the principle still applies that it's horses for courses and so in my mind the breed standard has sufficient um uh latitude to allow you to have a German shepherd dog that is breed compliant that is built to be a super super igp working dog service dog still within the brid standard confines at the same time have a showd dog that is glamorous yeah that does have some Furnishings that is attractive and is still within the confines of the breed standard so for me I think this whole thing of them and us you and me your dog doesn't isn't a NIC looking dog because it it's not a show dog correct your dog couldn't do igp because it's aangul it's too heavy it's too soft in character and that's a problem with show dogs if if the working dog character is started to inch up a little bit in aggression uh area show dogs have gone

the other way too neurotic you know owner leaves them and they're screaming and you know come back so to me I believe that there is room and it is is appropriate to have if you like a dog that has the character and the structure that is highly suitable for working in all its principles and likewise for showing I believe it problem is at the moment uh particularly with the show dogs they're getting further and further away from the ability to work yeah that's they're the facts I I you know like I I I'll share some of my experience throughout the years cuz as a trainer I I always especially when it's time for a brid survey or you know they have to pass and and I get access and people come and try they they need some help with the with the protection aspect and some training so and I know I'm not the only one in the world I know that they show German Shepherds that still have very nice character in there yes like very nice character with with the dominance the enough dominance that you need that everything and and most of the time like when of course there is the ones that are just struggling that you cannot convince them that this is even of interest to them to to do this kind of acity but there are still plenty of show dogs that AB that it's in there no question like I I experience it every year when it's before it's time to do some uh big uh uh show and and they need to get the dogs ready um it so so there is so many different components that are factors and important factors and like the the people that are right now into the more of the confirmation involved they're not necessarily doct trainers they're not interested in that and on the other side the the other way around and with the show dogs like I every time like every year there is a dog that I'm like I I can make that dog a superstar because it has the that it has the character yes but my very first question is can it jump one meter or is he going to struggle there and in some ways this like if if that simple criteria gets emphasized somehow along with with with as we said okay we're floating in the and it looks beautiful and the angulation is but but we also put some more emphasis instead of not paying attention to it but can it just jump freely yeah this can be a game changer yeah look I I something that uh when we were in Lama we were talking about this issue of over angulation of the hind quarter and in L we now have some dogs that are over angulated in the four quarter too because what happens if you work on the hind quarter and get to a point where can't you can't make it any more

angulated because it can't walk right right eventually then you got to go to the front and make it the same and that's happening with some dogs but the over angulation the H quarter and the the the impediment to dodge jumping because of that we were talking about that in LMA and Margaret Van dorson made a comment that I think we all agreed that she seen some dogs that are so deep behind in the showroom and winning and they go to the DI and they can't jump up onto the DI right right yeah yeah yeah and come I think actually what you've led me into is again it was LMA and Lama was great like I wish they did that every year honestly um we we were talking uh on another occasion just judges around the coffee table uh about dogs that had the characteristics that we're talking about and it started off with Professor Mesler as a say saying to me what do you think think about let's make if you like the gray ones with the black and red ones and then we'll have the ideal that that and I said 50 60 years who's going to do that and why would you why would you very why would you bother yep um and then in another conversation someone said to me so what what do you think should happen and I said if it was me coming from the showdog side of the equation because in the showd dog side of the equation you're more preoccupied with structure than you are in in the working side so really that that's the area where the conversation uh probably uh belongs and I said you don't have to think about a solution whereby we have to make some gray dogs to black and red ones yeah to get where we want to go because that'll take 50 60 years the solution is right in front of your eyes and now we're getting close to the Bone and the really sensitive issues that most people don't want to talk about there are German Shepherd show dogs that were in the last SEI show the SEI show before it they're everywhere that are very very close to being breeds standard compliant they're not over angulating the H quarter they're not curved in the back they have strong outgoing character but because the trend is toward exaggeration deepin angulation tibia that's double the length it should be a curved back described as straight these dogs if you say to someone in that environment what about that dog he's under angulated and his back's too straight so they're there they're there what it requires is someone at the top of the tree and the top of the tree in the German shepher dog show dog

world is the person that judges the open dog class at the German Seager show beginning and end and the majority follow suit yes and I think people the dog the dog fers will understand that yep it's for that person to say there they are and those dogs they're there but in today's show ring they're almost out of sight because for most people Ivan it's like someone said to me so long ago I've forgotten but it's very true can you tell me the name of the Seager from a given year and anyone that's really into it they can tell you for sure Marco uh not almost said Quanto but he didn't uh but Iran blah blah right we we rattle them off tell me who the reserve Seager was right right tell me who was V va3 right and you're so right it can be actually it really that process can be sped up yes no idea so when you move Beyond VA if there were 5,000 people at the Z show and there were 10 VA dogs and five six years later you went to those 5,000 people and said who is V one two and three they couldn't tell you they'd be struggling to tell you who is VA to so these dogs I'm talking about that are there and I think of one uh digger the mvce in my mind is a good example they're there but you can't have dogs that are exaggerated in form they get overshadowed yeah and have dogs like that in amongst them because you'd make a fool of yourself so they're there but it it means a big switch and in my opinion there is too much investment right for that to occur if we think of va dogs that in my opinion fit the bill not from recent times and I won't go there I'll go back a bit I think of Willow Willow cluster more I remember some people in Asia ringing me and saying Louie we want to set up a kennel in Asia but we want it to be based on working dog attributes we want we want the shape we want a bit of Glamour but working dog attributes we want you to go to Germany and buy and we want a VA dog because that's important to the guy with the money who's the dog and I said Willow clust more but in today's ring he'd be considered to be under angulated n quarter and he his H quarter was spot on so it's it's it's um I'm not sure how the SV turns the ship around the other problem there too I is that unless the president of the SV judges the open dog class the the clout the hammer has is reduced marketly you know what is interesting

and and again I I really don't think I'm the only one but being in the like fully invested in the sport world I know that if I I I just know that I can make a lot of money it's like when the money and of course money is a a thing we cannot disregard that we it will be stupid if we disregard it as you said but the money are there like if I if if somebody gives me uh that even if it's not V10 even if it's SG dog that comes from good line that has a potential to be agile and has enough temperament and that dog like where where I'm going with this is there I'm certain 100% that they are trainers like me I'm not the only one that are willing to take a beautiful German Shepherd coming from a sh line to the world championship in working dog and do really really really good yeah and when that happens there is money there there's no question about it yeah and and and you're right whether we like it or not money is what drives particularly in Al breed you know I mean you're talking about huge volumes of money uh but but you're right right um uh yeah exactly what you say is is correct but then it comes down to who's going to do that who's going to you know make the call um but yeah but I I think that I think it's important I say that for me if someone says and they do so what do you think how do we get to that midline working dog with show dog Etc my opinion on that is no it it it the the road is too long I agree I agree 100% too long but personally for me because of my show dog background uh that I'm saying there are plenty of dogs in Germany that are beautiful dogs breach standard compliant not over angulated have a straight back have strong character within size within size um that could offer the breed a Way Forward yeah a Way Forward I'm not sure that the will exists to do that I think people don't believe it's possible that's my take yeah I I I think you're right I think it takes two dogs to show that it's possible and then watch out exactly and the only way that anything happens as you know Ivan is it has to be someone that's got influence correct and historically in the show dog sport the people of influence not all but too many their motivation is ego money today yeah yeah ex exactly so why would I do that why would I do that um that that's the problem but I but if we come back to my book Ivan uh because I think the things that we're talking about here was their personal opinions your personal opinion my personal opinion and 50 people that have another opinion I think that if I come back to my book my Approach which is one of respect

for all the areas that the breed's involved in respect for individuals uh but at the same time the breed standard must be the core driver for construction and character my book is based on that and I think that's why it's been successful um because you know I could I couldn't tell you Ian how many and I get feedback from everyone that buys my book because I process them and it's become a very personal thing I've lost count of young girls young boys 17 18 19 that have got one German Shepherd dog I think in every case their interest is igp or agility that have got my book uh and the and the reason why I think the book has been so successful and the first addition as you know was sold out in 16 weeks to 69 countries is because it's not driven by my personal bias let's go back no okay before before we I I have something else hopefully we have a little more time but I you know just to kind of Sid track a little when I breed malice and and I'm to pick a puppy for myself in my early years I would be like always like oh this is the one cuz it just stands out and it's doing things and it's whatever it took it took a lot of time as a breeder to realize that you if you want to do it right you cannot go extreme and especially like now when if I'm selecting a dog for myself and I have my best friend wants to get a dog from me and they I'm like yeah come and pick your dog I know which one you're going to pick you're pick that one because it's just going to pop in your eyes and you cannot get your eyes away but I like the one in the middle yes and and it it very much the same but from the working aspect you know like like there there is this beauty about the middle yeah I I think one of the interesting things I found um I had someone who was and is heavily involved in igp seriously involved and I invited her I was going to say that person you're already giving away her um to come to a confirmation show and she did and we're watching the dogs going around and she made a comment to me their bones are all so big and I said ah look to me nice bone if I have an issue it's fine bone but strange one I said a so I think it's all right why why do you say Well they're just too big I said so when you're picking a puppy in your litter what do you look for in bone she said I prefer fine and bone because they're faster functionality that may not apply to anybody else but it was really interesting it was interesting to hear that so in a way Ivan I think that is why I came to the conclusion of its horses for courses that you that whilst it would be

wonderful to have the universal dog that everyone agrees on I think the reality is that when you actually get down into it and look at what people want in those two specific areas and we just on igp and show now not service or do whatever that there are there are differences that are understandable that are well within the confines of the breed standard but each side needs to respect and understand why that preference yes instead of at the moment it's just uh you don't know what you're talking about it's like this like yes yeah that that's very unfortunate it's the it's the wrong way correct and again uh Ivan I think that's why I wanted my book to be open in that regard and of course I honestly I would never have dreamed that three quarters of my book sales would go to working dog service obedience um uh Enthusiast not in my wildest dreams um but part of it is because it's at arms length there is no uh bias by me correct and uh yeah yeah no correct I mean like again like you you cover each German dogs which again like I I was in the 80s I was still in Eastern Europe I like I still have pictures with this German Shepherds you know like you know and of of course there is the bias and the Nostalgia that I think they were phenomenal dogs at the time who knows if they were or not but a lot of mistakes happened with the breed right like like that was a I I experienced that when the Wall came down and and it could have been done in a much smarter way how how we integrate and and that didn't happen that just kind of we just lost it and eventually even now even today I would hear well my dog is DDR Lin it's like what are you talking about like this is this is pointless to talk talk about it right now unfortunate but it's it's a bit like it's got to the point now it's almost like my uh my great great great grand was an was an ape uh you know it's and and again in that DDR section um when you get to reading the end part I make the point that there are no more DDR dogs yeah um the the the the Bloodlines from the period exist and you can go back to that period but there are no more DDR registrations so they don't exist yeah uh but what is important is uh what occurred during that that um period and its impact on on the dogs uh and that's why uh again if I get back to what I said to you in the very beginning of how the book evolved Ian where I'd address something and then that would lead to the question but what about before that the same here so I finished off the typical breed 1899 to 2022 Germany and when I was two-thirds way through

it I it occurred to me something I didn't know that okay so these are the Bloodlines that impacted on the DDR dogs these are the dog dogs that that uh had an impact in in in in the East and these are the dogs that then had an impact on color even and working dogs going forward so like everything in the book like with the eyes it's brown why Brown why not yellow yes yes a wolf's eyes AR Brown so why not why not are the eyes brown and inally on that because as human being we're not scared of brown eyes but we're scared of light eyes SC scared of yellow eyes right so with that the same issue applied I have to write about the DDR and so I did and uh I got a lot of material from a lot of people that helped me with that uh and so there's that whole section on the DDR and a whole chapter on working dogs it it's very very interesting and actually very encouraging that the book is selling to not a specific narrow uh group of people that's very encouraging it is and uh we're only talking small numbers Ian but I think really important particularly in that over angulation has created a problem misunderstanding at the general public level at the veterinarian level that they believe the instability is hyp displasia so lots of people with young animals go to the vet because they're wobbling right and the vet says hyp displasia put it down yeah yeah I've experienced this give it some give it some $110,000 titanium hips what's pleasing for me is that we have sold almost 20 books to veterinarians that's really important significant yeah I mean I think like I I know that I think I'm certain that what you did it's a it's it's a amazing contribution and there is a hope because of books like this and because of of you know they like you need the young people and I'm glad that they're buying the book and I'm glad that they're getting excited and they're getting educated because you have to you it's it's very difficult as a human not to take sides and not to just and and to to understand sides before you try to to see where it can go you're absolutely right you're absolutely right and you know even when I started writing the book I was conscious of people would say why is he writing about working dogs igp dogs what does he know and I saw some comments in from America people saying that incidentally 73% of all Book Sales now go to America I love it hopefully that podcast helps more because as I say that this is a yeah I

yeah and in and in in talking about the you know the well receiving of the book as you can imagine when I one of the things to be honest one of the things that was always in my mind so Professor Mesa president of the V I don't know if you know I was a wsv continental director and he sacked me because I was critical of some aspects of what the SV were doing so he sacked me we didn't speak for five years yeah do world right then he got my book and he rang me and said I've got your book and I'd like us to be friends again and we become very good friends beautiful we speak weekly now and and it's it's really nice so when we're in LMA I knew that he was happy with the book my concern was that he may be offended by some of the things I've said in there in regard to the management of the breed by the SV correct which included aod under him so I was like I don't know how this is going to go he loved the book he loved the book and the frankness of the book right and the importance of the book and that it was written at arms length not with a bias yes so when we're in LMA you can imagine Ivan I know he likes the book but we haven't really said he hasn't said too much to me so LMA went for five days and I gave three lectures the importance of the breed standard and the long coats and on the last day Professor Mesler who had then been president uh eight years got up to summarize the five days and I was in the front row and I didn't know what to expect and we had a giant screen four meters high and Professor Mesa got up on the with his microphone and up on the screen came uh the photo of the first front page of the first Fon stefanet book and my book wow and I was looking out like what's he going to say and you can imagine for me well I can't say this young boy in Australia this old man in Australia now and he said for the last 100 years we had the Von stefanut Testament and the Bible for the breed and from today going forward for the next period the New Testament is Louis Donald's book The Definitive German Shepherd dog maybe 300 people sitting there 70 breed judges can you imagine Ivan how wonderful that was I love it and I mean cheers to that like that says it all doesn't yes it does yes it does it really does there is hope there is and um and I get a lot of very positive feedback on my book um what what I see on Facebook more and more which is wonderful is I like the German Shepherd dogs that Louis Donald likes and in a way if we take the division yes Louie Donald likes German Shepherd dogs that reflect the breed standard yes you don't like the breed standard how can you you're like a German Shepherd dog I've

taken uh the one of the world's leading dog artists and painted my interpretation of the breed standard which you saw that's it I like the dog because it reflects the standard but it's the the breed standard blueprint that created that dog and so many people particularly young people I like Louis Donald's dog yeah yeah yeah and that's a wonderful thing and it all all it is if you look at it isn't it Ivan it's sort of the midg ground isn't it it's a a tweak from both sides yes and and I have to I have to comment on this cuz that's really kind of how I stumbled on on it was on your Facebook and all of a sudden I'm like okay I need to see the next pause because you you you know like like we're talking interesting stuff here you got my attention and not just my attention and and these kind of conversations are so so needed and there is the educational part but there is it's an open conversation and and it's very good and um that's that's how it all came about it I was like I didn't even know where you are so at one point I remember remember I I texted V him I'm like where is Louis at like I need to talk to this like there is no way I don't I have to talk to him and that's kind of how it all rolled in um but but that's to say you know like there there is something about social media there is the good and there is the bad but yes there is a lot of good and and like I I encourage you to keep going going with with what you're doing there because it it gets attention and it's important it's important that that's been a big learning curve for me um when I first started uh putting things up on Facebook people came to me and said you shouldn't do that uh it's bad for the breed's image you say anything bad about the breed you're damaging the breed Etc so it was a big learning curve for me and then I got to the stage where I realize that there are times when I want to convey a message and there is no getting away from the fact that I'm criticizing some aspect of the dog or worse if I use a dog as an example specific name yes that's a big yeah very very hard Ian really hard like this morning if you go on my Facebook I've got a head of a dog I put up a gray head the other day and so many likes a beautiful gray uh dog and this morning I put up a profile of a dog showing that if the dogs get too big generally the head gets big with it correct and dogs are that big heads have big loose lips yes comes with the territory yes so I put the dog up this is and on top of that the endurance goes out now talking from a trainer yes correct correct so big loose lips that's all I wanted to demonstrate that when dogs get too big their heads

proportionally get big and when canine heads get big they get Lippy and jelly yeah right salive and so on that's all I want to demonstrate why getting too big is is bad someone immediately comes in and says Ah I know that dog that's Fred right right and this is like a quite an important dog and I went back deleted it and send him a message and I said this is a generic comment very true if you mention the dog the whole point of my post is lost true and everybody's in there uh criticizing how could you do that uh Etc so it it's a it's a delicate delicate age at some points I know I know this firsthand because when we it it is very much exactly the same on the on the sport and the working dog world because you know if we're talking about a certain training technique or a certain and and you have to show an example if you don't show an example you you you cannot bring the the point home but when you do that now it becomes personal and we need to somehow find a way how we can yes talk to each other like we really need to talk to each other and you you'll notice Ian the if if you were to step back and have a uh a quick spin of my Facebook posts over the last 10 years something you notice is more drawings coming in but that's because of my friend Linda Shaw that we developed a lot of drawings between us so what I'm doing now to take that away uh is using more drawings and so yeah I think it's a smarter way yeah but there are sometimes when you can't it is what it is like correct you know the lips of the lip because it's was eating the pigment correct because what happens Ian a lot with dogs when they have really jelly lips and a lot of saliva uh they start the it it impacts on the pigment oh and not just that it it will like all that saliva is going to start creating hotpots it's going to mess up the gums it's going to it's a it's opens the door to to quite a few health issues of course of course so what is your like I'm curious now I know you you retired from judging what is your position where how how are you involved in in the German shepher world besides what you do on Facebook and and of course the book and everything yep um with regard to the judging I was you are retired judge or no I'm I'm not sure okay I was going to clarify so okay I'm I was orig uh in the first instance KC Australian can control judge in the first instance that judging license is recognized automatically by the FCI and the vdh yeah to be a foreign list SV judge and I did seven exams now they only do three or four I did seven part of the criteria for acceptance is you've got to

be your country of origin licensed by your CH control then you do that so because Germany retires you at 70 which is ridiculous yes I mean I can see it that like when people lived in the 40s and 50s things change now it shouldn't exactly because that rule that rule goes back about 30 years like old age was 50 then correct so my license was revoked terminated whatever right oh so it wasn't you deciding to back off it was just the rules I got a letter dear Louie you've been wonderful congratulations years of service no watch no watch no gold watch just a little letter so that was me gone but I'm still ankc FCI vdh recognized judge okay so I continue judging like next week I'm judging in India okay and giving a breed lecture in India uh so I continue judging that's awesome because you need to decide until I decide I don't want to judge anymore I'm also a breed surveyor Co Meister right so I do breed surveys um yeah so I'm actively engaged I'm I'm glad to hear this because uh one way or another the people that are Judges being in the working dog being in the show ring those are the people that can those are the people that everybody is paying attention to that they can very quickly bring in in a very intelligent way where we are going so look where I I in LMA going back to LMA again I got up and spoke about how disappointed I am in the SV having a 70y year ruling and I pointed out that I gave three breed lectures more than anyone else right I've just written a book that Professor Mesler has said is the new Von Stefan's book here I am talking to you now I'm not tired I didn't get for forgetful so I just said I was disappointed in that rule um I regret or I'm disappointed for the breed that there are so many people in Germany who unlike me don't have an FCI license to fall back on and they're finished and you know Ian the saddest thing I ever saw in regard to this I was a very good friend of a German judge who is very active actually in in igp Rolph fer uh and rol I think his Forte was tracking I think it was tracking Ralph fer he was vice president of the SV once he he and I were very good friends I stayed with him many many times and so we were there Gail and I were there on one occasion and we're having dinner he and his wife G and I and he started to talk didn't speak very good English his wife spoke no English but I speak a little Deutsch sure um he

started to cry and what's going on settle down and I if you speak lungs some we I can understand what you're saying what it was he he said to me I've turned 70 they've taken my license away from me this has been my whole life I no longer have a life ahead of me and tears running down his face wiping his nose it was Dreadful now Ian I've spoken to some people about that in Germany younger judges their response oh had his day you know he had his day now it's our chance and there was no absolutely no empathy for this man what I saw though is for some people Ian uh it's a big deal for them a big deal but there it is there there's the rule but thankfully I judge until the day I say I no longer want to judge and the safety Gap the safety Gap there is if you don't see yourself that you should no longer be judging because you're physically and or mentally in capable of it the exhibitors will tell you they won't come to the show for sure yeah I mean that the AG a age at this point in time should not be a factor that just question no question there there are some people I know that a 40 should give it away right right no no qu no kidding no kidding what is the deal with now that we we mention FCI and wsv and SV and that there is always is always this tension and there is always this confrontations and there is always somebody's pulling the rug and and I I get how I I really get it why is that um but what is your take on this stuff like there is there is something about being able to stand your ground like for example I will give you my like I I'm extremely disappointed with the utility working dog Commission of FCI because like right now I don't know if you I'm sure you are aware Austria is about to ban any protection Sports actually I was talking to Professor Mesler last night about that he told me last night y so so when you when when we have these people that we have elected to to be our they they represent us and and we expect that they will they will stand out for us and and educate and explain why this is important and and and everything but they yeah they they kind of they I I I I trying to find a nicer way to say it but their hearts are not there they don't do that for us um and a lot of times within the sport Community we're like maybe we just need to have a working dog world organization that really uh it's not like we need

a we need people that will come out and and educate and and because what is happening in Austria it's it's not even the beginning I was going to say it's the beginning but it's not even the beginning I mean everything is about to end very quickly and we don't realize that and we're all standing divided you know you're right and in fact um funny enough because I mentioned um Professor Mesler and I talking about this last night one of the things that he's mentioned or said a few times to me and I think it's true that pretty well up until now the dialogue in relation to a lot of these issues has been between Club organizations uh people that are involved his concern which I think is a real one is we we could be getting closer to the day where that will be taken away from us yes uh and government institutions they'll be making the decision yes scary and yeah and I agree with that I agree with that and you know that gets back to one of the things we're talking about with uh the breed with over angulation German Shepherd dog uh when it was most popular was seen as a very healthy breed now it's seen as an unhealthy breed and part of that is misunderstanding the over angulation relative to the hip but I understand that you know you've probably seen on my Facebook uh um a video of a young puppy walking yes tripping itself yes and I know there are thousands like that so I understand why it's now looked on as an unhealthy breed so those things can be changed and I'd like to think that my book contributes in a positive way uh toward that man what a good conversation um it's been great do you have a little more time I have a it's kind of something that way back from my again my my beginning of being a into dogs and and and Shepherds and everything and there was the whole thing about Kanto on the VIN and being the hemophiliac and and it was like a rumor and it was like and even today I have no idea what what happened there do you know like you have to know I know yeah um cuz that was Al always was like a very you know hush hush and like but you get your attention but it kept going yeah what what um and it's interesting again this is in my book I I st that this occurred uh so it's all in the book so I I'd heard that Kanto V uh was um a carrier of Hemophilia and obviously comes through the Suns which is like the hemophilia is is the basically doesn't make like the blood doesn't make the clot right it just runs out doesn't CL so I was in vanheim with Hammond and Walter uh and the restaurant I remember is called the salt and pepper really lovely restaurant and I brought up this issue of C wow with he and Walter was sitting

there and I said is there any truth to the rumors that c is [Music] caran Hammond looked at Walter and Walter sort of looked back at Hammon and Hammon said Louie we're aware of that but it's not true it's not true um we think that there are there might be a link but it's very complicated blah blah but it's untrue I said oh okay so that was that after that conversation maybe six months later I don't even know if I'm putting you on a spot here talking about this I like no no it's fine in the book the book um C is dead right C dead and uh I rang Walter and said what what happened and Walter said and when I rign Walter he's in America judging he said my kennel manager just reigned me and told me that c he was out running around uh and being silly and he ran into a tree in the kenel and hit his chest um and he bled to death [ __ ] can you imagine yeah and I'm like and wal's telling me this and I'm like holy cow I said Walter do you realize the implication of that right what what do you mean I said with the hemophilia he said no no no no you keep talking about any he got cranky so then I found out that he ran into the tree and there is a a a a large artery comes across the the sternum that got cut because he's a hemophiliac he bled to death and then it became public okay so yes as far as the SV were concern and and Malcolm Willis writes about this in his book that the SV said that they were going to publish all dogs that were declared hemophiliacs and I think they published uh two dogs names or something so in truth that was a cover up that was a cover up but even today Ian and again I put mention this in the book what surprises me even today people talk about how important CA vau was to the breed W how important he was and he never was a ziger right he never won no I think he rum the first year put him back because of character he didn't have strong character and then the second year he made him be one H his first breed survey he was class two because of his character and he was infirm behind and then I think Romo sort of uh favored him a bit because he was producing well right but my position for the people that have said the breed is better because a c and he gave shape and my opinion is canav hour should never have been used for breeding period interesting yeah I had to like I that's been like for for more than 30 years in

my head yeah yeah but but that that's uh I think one of the problems with the show dog attitude by some people that even when you've got something as Dreadful as that as Dreadful as that right it's worth it because he gave us shape I mean think about that Ivan the logic of that argument but there are people that are like that over angulation dogs tripping themselves falling over but it's worth it because we've got the shape yeah yeah that's the problem we've come long away long ways though with where sciences and and uh it's incredible how many things we can test for today and make very very intelligent choices in breeding like we have the abilities now yeah that that that's right and we've come a long way obviously as you say from that period um like at the time of T become a oh no that would have been a do test because humans um yeah but a lot of a lot of things are hidden in the past you know we talk about when when I did my 140 years of um breed development of course I'm relying on pedigrees being accurate right Fred was really the father of Johnny Johnny was really the father of Mary I have to accept that right and then I their pedigree and their critique it may be that Mary wasn't Johnny's father because there were a lot of bad things done by some people I I'm smiling because in the and that in one area I won't give you names right exactly yeah I understand I'm smiling because in the in the Malino world this this was a since since they became popular in the 80s like mid 80s um the the really good dogs they were not coming from FCI channels and there was a lot of I mean I I remember getting my first dog and I'm like I need to know and I sit down with the breeder like the most famous like the Malo and he sits me down and he just writes me in little piece of paper what really is happening and that came that that was in Malo world was for a very long time like that and I think it's still like that and there is that difficult question about breeding and getting to close and trying to jump outside yeah and if it's done carefully or if it shouldn't be done at all this is a whole other debate that maybe we need to have another podcast and talk about this yeah well well certainly um you know if you have a look at the showd dog in Germany at the moment and look at the outcome from the last C show which I covered uh the first four effectively a Willie um we should be opening it up the Bloodlines not closing them yes yes it's

very difficult very difficult for an individual in this case Ben Weber standing in the middle of the Ring to make things work um and juggle all the elements and I think that if money is a big part of the equation like how many of these dogs have been sold to China for money that you and I could buy a house for for sure when that's part of the equation the water gets very muddy doesn't it yeah the dog world is very interesting yeah very interesting something that I I learned a long time ago is that in an argument in an argument self-interest will always win over idealism tough one what what will be like what would you message before for the young people that are just getting involved and getting your book and getting the the the spark is there now what what do you tell them I think and and and I don't the reason I'm hesitating it's like I feel this is self-interest making comment but it's not and I don't need to to preface it with any sort of apology as it were that if someone is new to the breed starting off in their early days and they are genuinely sincerely interested in the German Shepherd dog in all its aspects then really this is the book yeah they should be by yes um and I say that without apology yes no I I I will double down on this any day yeah and as you know there are so many people around the world from Professor Mesler uh talking about the FCI uh president um uh to uh dinky sandros who's a leading orbridge judge so many have said if you're serious about the breed particularly if you're a German Shepherd dog or working dog judge then you should have this book yeah the advice that I'd give any young person is read as much as you can listen to as much as you can ideally have a mentor but in the end allow your intelligence to decipher what's truth what's not truth navigate through everything right at the core of it all is a breed standard that is the Bible that is the ultimate Guardian no living person no matter how big his ego rides above the guardianship of the breed standard if you don't like what's in the breed standard you don't like the German Shepherd

dog so when somebody says to you I prefer this dog to that dog look at the dog relate it to what the breed standard says yeah and go with a breed standard right recognize that personal moment of okay that's my personal opinion but but still there is a there is a definite guideline absolutely and Ivan um when I went when I gave the brief to the artists and there were two artists involved incidentally the first artist uh is a bre German shepher dog Authority within her her own right and wrote a very good German shepher dog book in Canada Linda Shaw and I I work with Linda to do my drawings so initially Linda with me Linda drew the outline of the dog of that dog okay then she died prematurely um unfort and so I had to find an artist a leading World artist to take the outline and create the painting wow and that's when col Thor came in so the benefit for anyone that wants to see the breed standard in a visual form then that's been constructed for them Lo man I mean I mean I I have to thank you for for everybody for for that book uh um thank you highly recommend it and like very very happy that that hopefully that that that's ignites and excites people and and we we move forward cuz there is always a way forward and and we can make it happen I think one of the difficulties I have in in selling the book well it's the first edition is a sellout obviously now it it it's it's getting a little tougher one of the difficulties is as you can see it is utterly impossible to convey to anybody what this book is like until they've got it open it it it that's the difficulty the other one is that language can be a problem and so for example uh I know in Germany uh the sales are lower there than anywhere else and one of the reasons put forward is the language for sure but but as you've seen there are about 1,500 diagrams yes it's almost like all the words have also been converted into images and drawings yes so even if you don't read English the book has got a lot to offer without a doubt yeah yeah very true man okay Louis I think we need to do another one I'm not sure what we're going to talk about but but there I I I feel like we have more conversations to have thanks Ian um so I think it's a good place to end this one thank you for coming in and um yeah everybody there it is highly recommended as I said like it it is becoming a mandatory reading for for the school that I run for dog

trainers not because of Any it's just a it's a it's a artwork like it's it's a yeah and that's the other thing you touched on it that it it it it makes a perfect coffee table doesn't it some of the images are just extraordinary yeah we like I tell you right now we sorry to interrupt but we just as we're talking today well now it's too late but we we have a workshop and we were training dogs and I have friends coming from all over the states and I have a a very good friend of mine at home and I I just I didn't even say it I just put it on the table he got stuck he opened a page then he opened another page and he got stuck and I'm like what and and the next thing is where do I buy it I'm like yeah I tell you right and interest and the other thing is the number of people I that have said to me um who's the dog on the cover what's his name they can't believe that is a painting but what's lovely about it is that the number of people that ah that looks like my dog or and because it's a collage of 11 dogs so the difficulty in me because it's a definitive German Shepherd dog the the head that I had on there originally U was fa Adel schlag who's a lovely female seag German SE and then I showed people and they said a but her ears are a bit big are you saying those ears are okay I said no and her eyes are a little bit round are you saying they ideal eyes I said no in the inside of the cover it tells you it's it's SP ad and what came across was but people will read that the definitive German Shepherd dog they won't read what you've said inside and they'll say so Louis Donald is saying that's an ideal head yeah so when I look for an ideal male head all the seagar couldn't get one that was ideal nice eyes big ears ni and so went on so in the end I had to paint or create my own head and the same of the dog the number of people that think that is a real dog right it will be interesting how like now now I'm thinking of um how how we are so like our attention span just because of social media we we cannot focus for too long on one thing yes but but that book gets your attention that can stop you and you can if you're a dog person you you you will spend time in it which is on its own amazing in today's time you know of of swiping and scrolling that's right and the the other thing that uh that reminds me of and you would have seen comments from a quite a number of doctors I mean putting aside Professor Mesler is an orthopedic surgeon so his support for the book because there's so much the tech technical in there all the

bones and so on I drew all of them all those bones I drew and then Gail did the coloring in but the number of general practitioner doctors that have said this book is technically there's nothing else like it Lois have a a good day I guess it's uh I don't know what time is it down there but it's it looks beautiful 1 o00 it looks beautiful afternoon it is beautiful I'll go for a swim now hopefully I don't know when I'm going to make it down under again but uh if I do we we definitely have to that'll be Wonder thank you for the conversation and hopefully everybody enjoyed it so we will be talking again take care [Music]