E90: 에이미 쿡(Dr. Amy Cook) - 소음 민감성이 있는 개들

And it's sort of one of those dog trainer catch-all terms like reactivity, where we may mean a lot of different things about it. And in this sense, I think that's okay. Um, it does run from the slightest noise in the category of things I'm afraid of makes me panic and salivate and run to dive under the bed or sit there catatonically. Or it might mean just, I have some slight trepidation about that sound out there and I'm not exactly sure what to think about it. And they may turn to us in those times. And I think what we most don't want is for it to get to the extreme. It might already be there for a given dog, but it's one of those things where, because it can be so impactful in the life, we don't get to control sounds. We don't get to change where dogs are when sounds happen as much as we'd like, um, that we, we need to take almost any presentation of this, uh, really seriously. Um, behaviors can really, can really range and vigilance is often missed by us. I think where a dog hears something puts the ears a little bit back, shows a little bit of a worry face, but then maybe it's gone before we saw them worry about it. You know? So, um, I think doing a little bit of protective noise work, as I like to call it, not the protective part, but the noise work part can never hurt. Teaching a dog that noises are just harbingers of fun times is a good and protective thing to do. Um, even in dogs that don't seem to have a problem just yet. So it really runs the gamut. So is it typically, you know, tied to maybe a specific noise to folks usually come to you and are like, Hey, this particular beeping thing, or is it more generally just noise? I mean, what have you seen? I do see really both of those. There's definitely dogs that are there that feel like anything sort of sudden, uh, that makes a noise, um, is worth worrying about and it's scary for them. Um, and I don't know if when we have environmentally sensitive dogs, you know, in quotes, if part of that or a lot of that isn't just that environments have a lot of strange noises in them. And if it isn't noise sensitivity folded in to, to general environmental sensitivity. So I do see that a lot where we don't have just one specific noise. It's just this and all the rest of the noises I'm okay with, but all of the suddenness. And I see dogs like that as being, um, tense in a lot of ways, sort of all the time, not a hundred percent of the time, of course, but dogs who, who are, who are tightly tuned, um, can, can be affected by all sorts of unexpected noises in the environment. And then there are dogs who, who have very specific triggers.

The one that we commonly, you know, hear about or think of are, are the ones who are afraid of large booming noises that we find on 4th of July and New Year's Eve. Um, and then the, the thunderstorm type noises, right? Cause those are the big, very dramatic out of the norm, completely scary, you know, gunshot type noises, but it doesn't cover all of them because a lot of dogs are afraid of, of, uh, weirdly, um, beeping or high pitched metallic or electronic sounds. So the sounds from your microwave, the sounds from an electronic timer, um, sounds from a whistle at fly ball from a timer at fly ball, uh, trials, um, sounds you might make in the kitchen. Something hitting your kettle, for example, those can be really distressing to dogs. Um, and then I would say just anything that your dog really hasn't had a lot of exposure to. So you've, maybe you've moved somewhere. I don't live somewhere where there are thunderstorms. So it's not something that we have a, that I, that I tend to see a problem with. Um, but if I were to move to places with summertime thunderstorms, which is pretty common across the country, I would expect them to, to feel a bit sensitive to anything that's new like that. So, so really noises, um, they can run the gamut too, just like the behavior that, that shows from them. Um, we never really know what it's going to be probably until we see it, but again, not, not a bad idea to, to prevent it if we can. Is it typically, you know, kind of something people see show up early in the dog's life? Is it something that they kind of have for forever? Do they develop it? And do we know anything about kind of what causes it? I don't personally know anything super, you know, scientific about what, what causes it. But as a, you know, just a practitioner of, of helping dogs, I see a lot of dogs develop it later in life. Um, it certainly won't be all dogs, but it's, it's so many of them that, you know, we, we have that sort of the dog trainer lore of someone says, Hey, my dog has become noise sensitive. The question you first asked them is, is your dog seven? Um, because it's just, you know, super common that somewhere in middle life, middle age, and that's of course going to range for breed. And it can, it can just develop. And it, is it, it's some kind of brain change where there's a noise processing change in the, you know, the areas of the brain that process, uh, noise, are they, are they changing? Are they aging? Are they, you know, is something happening there? Um, also, you know, some say, well, it's been seven years. Now you've had seven years of storms or seven years of fireworks.

It's now you've had them long enough that you could sensitize. It could be something like that. Um, although I would expect to see it happen more gradually if that were true, but that's not necessarily the way it would present. Maybe you're hiding it or you're dealing, you're coping. And then now you just can't cope. And so you show it that's possible. Um, or it could be the hearing is changing around that time. And so the way things sound have just become a bit distorted, but this is just speculations. It's hard to say. You can certainly have noise sensitivity your whole life. Um, you can be a thing that, that, you know, shows in, you know, puppyhood or adolescence as a thing they, they just don't know how to process and don't have a positive opinion about, and they, they definitely need our help at that point, uh, for sure. So they can get, you know, through that. I think dogs who develop it later in life, um, who didn't have a problem before, um, can, can accept and change. I think, at least in my experience more quickly from, from an intervention because they've had a fair amount of time in their life doing okay with it. And maybe just learning something new about whatever this new sound feels like to them, um, can, can stick pretty well. But of course, if it shows up in puppies or young dogs, we really want to get on it because, uh, we certainly don't want a dog to have a lifetime of feeling terrible about the normal sounds of their environment. Right. I know kind of from reading through some of the smart things you've written, this is one of those problems that often just kind of gets worse if folks ignore it. You know, what is that, you know, what are some ways that it can escalate? What, what might that look like? It is one of those things that I feel really, that it's really important to, to get on right away. And I suppose I would apply that argument to almost any, you know, fear-based behavior problem. I mean, if dogs are suffering when they're afraid, if they're afraid often, that's a terrible feeling. So we want to get on almost any behavior. I don't mean to overly highlight noise, um, in, in that way. But one thing that, that happens to noise phobias, noise sensitivity is it doesn't seem to happen at least the same way with say a fear of strange men is that it escalates and can escalate really quickly. A dog who shows some sensitivity to a beep beeping sound. Say they say they were in your house when your smoke alarm batteries, you know, went bad. Now it's been six months, they need replacing. And it beeped all day while you were at work. Um, and they couldn't escape that.

You could come home to a dog who's sensitized to that sound. Not, of course, not all of them, but just some will. And then they start hearing anything that's similar to that and feeling the same triggered way. And then things that are not terribly similar to it. It's not just the microwave beep, which would be similar, but now, you know, a fork on a plate, um, can, can do it. And, and once you're afraid of noise and you're vigilant about noise, you can become, I guess, dogs can just become more and more sensitive very, very quickly. Whereas fear of men, um, tends to stay, you know, relatively stable. If you control the trigger some and nothing much is happening, it's not like that's going to make them better, but they're not likely to get massively worse over the next few months. Whereas in, in, in noise sensitivity, that's coming up really quickly. You really need to get on top of it. Um, because it can, it can just spread too quickly. And once it's all over the place and, and as most noises or many noises that are sudden, we really do have to be talking about medical intervention because of how difficult that really is. So, so if you see something in your dog that shows he might be getting a little sensitive to like the banging of the, of the, you know, metal door a bit at that trial you go to, or the gunshots that you know, you're going to hear a lot in hunting season, you want to get on it right away and really quickly, just in case this is going to be one that spreads, um, to a point where your dog would be suffering. Looking at your syllabus for your class on this, it looks like there are, you know, kind of a few pieces that you use to, to help sound sensitive dogs, starting with classical conditioning. I want to talk about that, but can you just start by explaining what classical conditioning is for anyone who might not be familiar with terminology? Yeah, definitely. Um, there's sort of two models we use in, in dog training or in changing behavior in dogs. And one is the, uh, the one that everyone's familiar with, with, you know, the terms or not where we, you know, reward things we like and we punish things we don't like. We of course try to minimize any of those experiences, but that's part of the model of, of operant conditioning. And it's about responding to a behavior and having that behavior work or not work for the dog. Um, in classical conditioning, it, it's, it happens irrespective of a dog's behavior. What you're trying to, to draw a picture of the dog, draw the line between for the dog

is that, Hey, this thing that just happened is a predictor of this next thing that's going to happen. And that's it. It doesn't matter what you do about it. You can have any reaction at all, but these two things are tied. So when it comes to, uh, noise work, which I'm saying really distinctly, so it doesn't sound like nose work. It's just a, just a cute, cute thing. I like to call it noise work. Um, when it comes to work with noises, what you're trying to say is, Hey dog, this sound that you hear, um, you don't know it yet, but it's actually just the thing that comes right before this other thing that you might really enjoy. And if the, if you can set things up such that they come to that conclusion, they see the connection between those two, um, that noise that has been troubling them up until now, uh, will take on new meaning. It's like, Oh, that thing I don't like, Oh wait, but doesn't it always mean that this other thing's going to happen. And when you can crack that door open a bit and let them see that the relationship exists and it's not just, Hey, the noise happens and now you're just scared, but the noise happens and now you have something to look forward to. Um, it can help them change their reactions and their feelings about the whole thing. So classical conditioning is saying, I will just draw a connection between one event and another event, one stimulus and another stimulus technically. Um, and through drawing that connection for you so that you can see that relationship, it can help you dog feel better, or at least take new meaning from the sound that before maybe had a pretty terrible meaning and, and give it something that maybe has a, hopefully a really positive meaning if we can get in there, you know, carefully and do it, do it just right. I do it really mathematically. I mean, I guess that's maybe not fair to say, cause there's no math involved. Don't, don't be afraid. There will be no numbers. Um, but I, I do it strictly. I really think about the relationships of those two, um, elements, uh, those two pieces that I'm trying to put together, the, the strength of the noise and the strength of the thing I'm following it with so that I'm really much more able to make that conclusion for the dog as, as clear and as powerful as I can. Um, so it's, it's doing classical conditioning, but the way I do it for this class is very, very strict and very specific so that I can have the best bang for my buck, if you will, in, in, uh, in doing it. I want to talk about that a little more. I think people who are familiar kind of with the term classical conditioning, right?

You're talking about, um, most of the time a visual stimulus. So something where you use a lot of distance and it's something the dog can see. So how does that change or how is it the same when you're talking about a noise instead of, um, you know, something visual? Yeah, I really had to give that a lot of thought when I wanted to, to work really specifically with this and have like a way I think every, you know, everybody can follow and have it really step-by-step because when it's something you see, you do fully control the strength of it, right? I can put the thing right in the environment, right when I need to, or have you look at it right when it would be appropriate. Um, and I can, I can play with strengths a little better than I can with noises, right? Because noises maybe whether they're loud or soft might already be so disliked by a dog that you can't get it down to be safe enough to experience while you're teaching them something new. Because if you just have noises happen and then try to follow them with something good, you're very likely to get a dog who says, Oh my God, that was so awful. Oh, look, it's followed by something good that I don't care about right now because I feel so awful because, Oh my God, that just happened. And then you're not going to get any change, right? Um, so you do have to play with these things and with noises. Yeah, sure. There's many of them you can make smaller. You know, I know people who have CDs and they play them really, really lightly. But, um, what I like to do instead is teach them the entire framework of how noise work, noise therapy will go on sounds that are not frightening at all. So therefore I completely control the upsetting stimulus by not having it be there at all. And I teach them the framework of noise therapy. And once they really have that, I can attach the entire therapeutic picture to any noise I want to starting with, of course, the most very neutral noises that I've got. And then I can, I can attach it to all sorts of unexpected noises. I drop something. Oh, look, we're going to have, you know, do our noise therapy. Um, and in time when they're very, very good at putting those connections together, I can start simulating and then eventually really using the noises that they already have a negative opinion about. And I find that, that teaching a dog out of context is one of the most important, really important parts of dog training. It's very important in this work because you cannot upset a dog before you try to make him feel better. You want him to feel better from neutral, not from I'm already upset.

Now you have to dial it back. So training out of context is just super, super important. And I find, I find that true in all sorts of dog training and we, we mostly don't honor it. We train, you know, people ask me all the time. Um, I don't know if I can simulate this thing my dog's afraid of. So I don't know if we can do the work. And I'm like, I don't want you to simulate the thing your dog's afraid of. Don't worry. We're going to do a lot of work just fine out of context is really, really the key there. Another piece mentioned on your syllabus and that you pull in here and you sort of alluded to a little bit in there, but you know, kind of this idea of having the dogs make the sounds themselves. So what's the purpose of that? And can you just talk about it a little bit? Part of what makes you, anyone feel better, feel more secure, feel like you can handle or cope with or feel okay about something is having some control over it. It's not something we can always give a dog in every scenario, but I'm always looking for where I can apply that. Where in any program I'm doing with a dog, are there, are there choice points where I can say, Hey, you can, you can have some agency here. You can choose to do some of this stuff. You can drive whether we continue or not. What, you know, where can I put that? And in, in working with noise, not all dogs have to do this. It's not appropriate for particular, you know, every particular case that comes forward, but, but for given dogs in, especially in the class, I assess whether it would be helpful for given dogs. It can be really powerful to have them make a noise themselves and then see that that triggers the entire therapeutic sequence that they get to go have fun in these, in these ways that we have for them. And, and, you know, when sounds just happen, let's say you're for, you're afraid of something and it could just happen any old time. You, you don't know what it's going to be. Right. And so having them at least be able to make a very safe, very neutral, very totally okay sound for them. Um, and then show them that it connects to it, I think is a, is a kindness and gives them a chance to have some agency. And I, I also do it, even if they're not going to make the sounds when we first make our sounds to, to teach them the therapeutic piece, I, I show them the object I'm going to make a sound with. They can sniff it. They can investigate it. They can nose it, roll it, play with it, whatever. So it's neutral and I show them right before I make a sound of it, like say dropping it an inch, you know, something very on carpet, right? Barely making a sound.

I show them I'm about to do it. I make sure they're looking and then I make the sound right clearly in front of them very simply so that nothing is surprising. Nothing is coming out of the blue. Surprise is a much, much later variable that is not part of the introduction of therapy. Um, so I show them how I'm going to do it. And I think that's one step toward giving them some control. Maybe they don't have exact control, but they have all the warning in the world. And then if they make the sound themselves, they have total control and they know it's going to make a sound. So, um, it's all part of an extension of how can I help you best be an active partner in your therapy and not just a receiver, um, which, which I, I look for, uh, I look for places I can do that in just about all my work so that I can keep expanding that idea. How do you teach them to actually, you know, go about initiating noise and kind of avoid having them in a situation where they end up scaring themselves. Yeah, exactly. You know, if you have a whole lot of times, you're doing this work all by yourself. Um, you can, you can get that done with just about any dog with dogs in the class. Um, it does have to be it because we have a limited time and not every dog is going to need this part of it. Um, I, you know, we want dogs who can already move objects, say with a nose touch. Can you shove something with your nose? Can you shove your toy with your nose? Can you, can you shove a toy with your paw? Many dogs already have that and we can completely use that. What I like to use is, um, uh, treat bags that they already really like the sound of maybe a Charlie bears bag. It's very crinkly. Um, or a box that's like a small cardboard box. He might have, you know, small amount of crackers in or something like that. Assuming again, that's completely out of the category. So for a dog who's really nervous about banging outside, probably a small cardboard box on the floor is not going to be in their category. Right. So we start with that and we teach them what would happen if you nudged it and it fell over. So I'll prop it like, so that it's, you know, not horizontal and not vertical, but diagonal and, and I'm holding it up. And if they nudge it, I drop it slightly. And then it goes bang on the floor. And I'm like, yay, here we go. Now to our noise therapy stuff. Um, and they're like, Oh, I, I did the thing. I guess it made a noise, whatever it was carpet. And now we're good to play. That's amazing. And once they get that, they can, you know, many dogs can make their own noises very easily without being, being scared.

If you pick really carefully, a dog can nose a crunched up piece of paper across something. And those do make noise. Uh, you, you want to start very, very, very simply. Um, if you, if you start at a place where a dog is already challenged to do it, either to do the behavior or to withstand the sound it makes, you're starting behind the start line. You don't want to be triggering anything scary at all. And I know, again, everybody thinks I have to trigger it a little bit to get rid of it. And I completely disagree. I think you should teach completely out of context. So we would pick the world's quietest noisemakers, the world's safest, um, objects, even their own toys to begin with. So that, so they're starting from a place of real confidence. I know part of the process is this, this concept of like a treat play party thing. I know I've seen some students kind of post about it on Facebook. Um, I could kind of probably guess a little bit, but can you share what it is and you know, how it factors into all of this? Absolutely. So, um, I, you know, sometimes affectionately call it a noise party. You can really call it anything. It's, it's just the, the idea that you need to have an event, um, with your dog that, you know, would be something say you might do if you had just won the lottery, if your dog had just won whatever dog lotteries there are out in the world, um, to where whatever it is you're doing with your dog, and it can be having a bunch of food together, playing with their toys together. Uh, the options are pretty endless. It needs to be really, really exciting. And your dog has to say, it's really, really exciting. So I don't mean you have to be super excited. Uh, and then your dog stands there and kind of watches you do it, but instead your dog thinks this is the best party he or she could possibly ever have. Now, most of us have some kind of reinforcement strategies for our dogs that make them really happy. Um, in the class I've seen, you know, the favorite tennis ball, certainly, um, a great game of tug. Uh, I had someone in the last term do hose play, um, going outside and using water off a hose. I don't see, I mean, I guess it's winter for most of us now, but I don't see any reason why you couldn't do it. I was a little like, I don't know. I haven't tried that before. And we ran with it and the dog was like, this is the best thing that's ever happened. And, and when you have in your pocket, so to speak, the best thing that's ever happened, you have a lot of power to change minds. So we spend the first, I don't know how long until, until I like it, uh, amount of time

developing some kind of noise celebration, lottery winning party. And you need to throw that party with your dog until your dog is like, I can't believe we're doing this again. This is so amazing. Can we do it more? I love it. Um, I don't care what it is. It can be tossing cookies all around and they're chasing them and running back and forth. And as long as their tails up and their face is happy and they're sprightly running and, and they have energy and they really look forward to it. Um, it can be literally anything that your dog likes. And, and, and why I want it to be so big is because for me to get any movement in an emotion and, you know, making a strong association, you want the second stimulus. Remember there's the, you're going to make, you're trying to connect two things together. One, the noise, although for us, it would be very neutral noise. And the thing that follows it, well, the thing that follows it needs to be pretty dang impressive. It needs to make a serious impact on your mind and on your emotion. And so I want these parties to be super exciting, really fun. And when they're that fun, they, they give us a lot of power to, to change a dog's reactions to something when we pair it with the different things we might pair it with. So, so the party is really the, the, the biggest part of this. And, and there are a lot of details to how, how I connect those things that, you know, that I wouldn't be able to elucidate here, but that you'd want to take the whole class to get to the pieces of. Um, but if you want to change minds and change hearts and change opinions, you have to have really, really powerful tools. And we spent a long time making sure that party is absolutely powerful enough to do that work. So for folks kind of struggling with this, or even just those who are just kind of interested in learning more about it, you've got both a webinar and a class coming up. Can you just share a little bit about each and maybe who might be a good fit for it? You know, when it comes to behavior problems, I tend to be of the opinion that everybody's a good fit in a way, because you can't like for my playaway classes, you can't go wrong teaching your dog really good therapeutic play because you never know when you'll have a problem. So in that vein, you'll never really go wrong teaching your dog what could happen from sudden noises, you know, that having a framework already in place helps a dog not draw their own conclusions that might be negative, but, um, it gives you a chance to influence it. But certainly any dog who's showing even mild worry about some stuff that's just come up

and they're not sure how to respond to it, uh, would be a good candidate. Um, and, uh, all the way to dogs who, who definitely have trouble with the thunderstorms and the fireworks, even though that only happens a few times a year. Uh, this is really helpful for that too. Although you have to lay a lot of groundwork to get all the way up to the level where it would work for something that big. We start with very small sounds, of course, and work our way up. The webinar is a small version of the class, just sort of like this is introduction to all the pieces and how to put them together. Um, and why, and then of course, some ideas of what to do when, when you can't help them, uh, cause things got too big all of a sudden. And the class doing classical conditioning is not super complicated. You do have to get the pieces, right. You have to get each piece exactly where it goes, but that's not complicated. That's just technical. Um, where the power really is, is in doing it a bunch of times, lots and lots and lots of times and, and making sure you're doing it right. Lots and lots and lots of times. So the dog understands that. So the good part of a, of a class where I can be guiding you through each of the steps is that you will get the number of repetitions it takes that by the end of class, your dog really has an understanding of how all these things get put together and has an immediate response that that's very quick to any new sound you make. And you tell them that it's noise party time. They go, Oh my God, lottery again. Oh my God. That's amazing. I make sure each step of the way through the whole class that you get each of those pieces together so that by the end, the relationship is very tight. And then you're just off and running and you can apply it to, to all sorts of different situations. So the webinar is an introduction to how that all works. And the class would be a, uh, let me make sure you're getting it all together and give you a chance to get as many repetitions as you need, because the repetitions, while possibly not super exciting, you're doing the same thing a lot over and over again, that is where the power is in classical conditioning. You, you, you have to get a lot of them done. So I'm, I'm there to support, support the students in getting that done. So last question, uh, kind of the one that I've been asking everyone who comes back on now, uh, you know, a little bit shift in topic, but what's something you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training in general?

I've been really thinking a lot lately about, um, perspective and about a dog's perspective and what it might be like to have your whole life be that someone trains you and someone takes care of you and someone takes you everywhere. What that actually might be like. I'm, I'm taking a, um, a whole bunch of parenting training right now in a system called RIE, which is, uh, uh, for a respectful, um, way of raising and dealing with infant care, raising infants. And I'm astonished at the, at the overlap because babies also have their own perspective, but they don't get to express it to us, um, in the same way that they will later. And, and dogs do, and also don't get to express it to us. And so I've been lately really trying to look at everything I do from the perspective of a receiver, from the perspective of a dog and, and see where there are points where I could give them even more say, um, and even more control. Even if I can't always go the way they need to go, I want to hear that they wanted to, or didn't want to do that so that I can, um, be a much better caretaker. And, you know, that's a, it's a real ongoing, it's an ongoing challenge because we have habits and we have ways we think already of how dogs are or what my dog already likes, you know? And, and I have to continually, I'm really doing it these days, remind myself to stop, at least in the analytical phase of it all. And, and consider if what I think is really true and if there isn't another, um, way they could be perceiving this that, that is, that I'm blind to, because I think that's the, I think that's where positive training 2.0, if I will, if you can call it that is, is going, you know, what is, what is the dog experiencing? Could they use more say, could they use more control in some of this? What would it be like if we gave them more of a voice? Um, and so that's what I'm, I'm really visiting a lot these days. I like that phrase, dog training 2.0 or positive training. We're going forward. Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Amy. This has been great. Always a pleasure having me on anytime. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Lucy Newton to talk about tracking. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com.

The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you. Thank you.