Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 37: David Garcia Suarez

know that you are breeder, you're not trying to just breed dogs to keep them. You are trying to improve all the time in your mindset. This is our obligation actually as, as humans towards the dog, no? I, I, the dogs, they don't have a natural selection anymore. So it's really our task to really do selection. So we have dogs that are more social. Yeah. They are more able to be able to adapt to different environments. To function. Yes, exactly. They are very resilient and they have really powerful cognitive capabilities and also very intense drives that we can model and do very complex things as we do in our sports. No, this is so this kind of interpretation. I always think that if we go to this positive because the, we think the dog is, are so weak and they need only protection is, right? It's really, it's, it's not making really no good for the dog. Yes, it's, it's harmful in the, in the, it really is because you, but it's strange times where we are very strange times and that's the, the difficult thing. It's, it's, it's, it's, we are in these times where actually the people that we love dogs and, and also we have a, a foot on science, no? We see dogs also, and as, the dogs and what we do is so complex and, and we have so many different parts, no? We have the genetic. Right. We really go very deep into the psychology and the training and the, etnology of the dogs, the etnologies of the dogs. Yeah. So we have such a big field. Um, and so, uh, well, you know how much, uh, we have evolved in our training and even in, in our interpretation of what the, uh, training dogs are and the system of training, no? Now. That's the big shame because how, how, how we evolved so fast. Yeah. And we're in incredible, like really, really good place of what we are doing and we keep improving. But then you have the, that movement that just does not care. They want to, they, they, I don't sometimes don't even know what exactly they want because they, it seems like they just will not stop at. No. Like, let's say, let's say IGP is no more. That's not going to make them happy. No. You know, like I had a, but then I had a podcast with a, a very, very interesting guy. I don't know if you listened to it. I know you've listened to a bunch of them. He, he was a, he's a five time champion in sled dogs in Editha Rot. Yeah. I really love that. Yeah. So I, when I saw your podcast, I, I really try to listen now, of course. And then what he was talking about there, he's like, yeah, the Peter, the animal rights activists, they're always coming at us.

But they also don't have interest to shut us down because they make a lot of noise and they get a lot of money. So if they shut us down, they're not going to have the money. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting way. You know, it's, you know, it's like the, the, the, what means the dog in the society? What means the dog actually, if we want to, to improve them or not? Because with this kind of interpretation, if you go to really pure philosophy of animalism, we, and they, they really don't know. No, no, but they, they want to destroy dogs and cats and any carnivorous. Yes. Because you cannot have a carnivorous for fun because to have your, your animal healthy, another dog, another animal has to die. Right. So what's more important, the chicken that your dogs eat or your dog, no? Right. Or that level of, of philosophy in one moment, you, you cannot have dogs because the, the, or you make your dogs. But when, if you respect what a dog means, it is a carnivorous, you can play a little bit with the chemistry and the knowledge and make your dog not eating meat, proper proteins, but it's so risky for the health of the dogs. And at the end, it's, it will be finished. This is a very, I'll tell you a very funny story. I had a, and I'm, I'm sure maybe the guy's going to listen to the podcast. So I sold a puppy to a guy from India. Yeah. And there were vegetarians and the dog ate, which you, you know, they were very, you know, I can be vegetarian. Yeah. If you make the right vegetarian food, it's great. Right. So they were doing this for the dog, but eventually something happened and they couldn't take care of the dog. And so they called me to take it back. They were moving something with visas. There was something, right. And he's like, but he's really loves his vegetarian food. If you want to keep him on that. And I'm like, man, I cannot lie to you. I, that's one thing I'm not going to do to the dog. Like as much as you, you know, like you put meat and carrots, you know what the dog's going to have. It's like, it doesn't matter. But actually if we, we, we have been playing with the genetic of the dogs, no, actually is I think one of the biggest human experiment with them. No, we have like 300 different breeds with different colors. And we have done it relatively very short time. This really big expansion of breeds. We've been able to really, if not only shape like morphology in the dogs, but also character. Right. We are playing with the very deep and we, we play with such a beautiful things in the, when, when you have the different dogs, the different breeds. Yeah.

We play with the same, how from the same base and actually for the, for the biology, we don't have an animal that come from the world. We have a world. We have a, it's just a, a super species of, of world, but it's not that he's coming far away from the world. No, no, you, you have, well, we, we know all of them. Actually, we have some breeds that they have some mix of, of blood of, of wolves. Yes. You put a, you put a wolf on a dog and you have, it's the same animal, no? That is in the ancient time came from the world. We have the same animal. So if we respect the biology of our dogs, clearly we must keep them as they are, no? You just look the teeth of your dog. He's not a sheep. Exactly. No? And his behavior. We, it's really impressive what we have created over the years. And like for people like, like you that has such a long term experience in the breeding that you've been analyzing or improve the, the, the, the capability of training, of course, but the training means so many things, no? How the dog can be adapt to different environments, how they can be social, how they can have those intensive drive under control. Right. No, that it's really, yes. With a positive emotion. Now, when we do like the deep analysis we do in, in our sport, in IGP, in, in all the phases, no? In tracking, in obedience, in protection, we have evolved so much and we have these dogs that are able to show us that, that if you take your eyes like the 30 years ago, we don't, we didn't have this kind of flexible dog. Yes, for sure. No? So. And we were not even, even if we had them, we weren't appreciating it at that time. Yeah, because now it's, as I said, we, I think our sport is so much in the good direction, no? Because when you, when we speak with these kinds of positive people, they don't really know how positive we are. Right. You know? But because it's in the philosophy, in our rules, no? What's in our, in our, in our sport, what makes it so interesting is that we have a philosophy framework. Do you think some of them understand it, but just go against it because? You know, it's, the thing is that they, they have this picture of a dog, that that dog must just be an animal that is doing nothing. Yes. Eat and sleep. And sleep and give a walk in the park. Yeah. And be social with the dogs. Yeah. But the real dog was not like that, no? It's such a wrong. Yeah. It's like, I always think, you know, it's like, we are all like the sport. Also imagine, no, the, no, the really good life is just to be like when we were in the lockdown, no? That was super, super good life. I was doing nothing.

Just give a small walk, then come back. If you're an active person, if you have your intellectual necessities, physical necessities, then we were, maybe the two first week, we were very happy because we have like a small holiday. But then you, you, you, everybody was really, really in very, very high stress, you know, that, and, and for those people that is supposed to be the nice life for the dogs. No, it's like, yeah, we like the sport, no? If, if I go to do my crazy sport and say, no, no, don't do it because then it's going to have pain in your muscles or whatever, or you're going to be cold. And I say, yeah, but when I have this challenge and after that, I feel alive. Right. No, it's, and then, no, no, it's much better. You stay just in the coach and give a little walk and go back and just eat. And this is the, that, that sort of mentality, but we love dogs and we love dogs in their, in the nature. What we want to have dogs that are every time more healthier, more strong, more intelligent, more adaptables. And that, that when we, we analyze this, thank you. When we analyze in the way we do now, the dogs is so sometimes so contradictory, no? And then you, if, if you, you have to have really, when you, I, you know, my, my profession is just to be dog trainer with a normal dog, no? Which actually let's stop for a second because we have to, I know like a lot of my audience know who you are because you've been here and you've judged a lot of things. And, but I'm, I'm going to try to make a little introduction and you add a little bit of, of what you do. Um, so you, you, you say your three names, right? You don't like, we always say like, like we would say Dave, David Garcia. But that's not right. In Spain, we, we say David Garcia, no? It's like my father's name. But then you, but then we always say also our mothers, no? So we always say the two. So my name is David Garcia. Yeah. And that's how, right. When I come to the States always, I know. People stay with the Suarez. Yes. Either that or that. It makes my mom very happy. But we, in Spain we have always, we keep the, the both family names. Yeah. So the way, the way I think, and I don't know if that was the, the first time, but it sounds logical to be the first time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. IGP, that was a very important shift, if you want to say, in how dogs were judged in the competition, especially in obedience. And that's where I was like, wow, there are actually judges and trainers that see things and say things the way they are. They cannot get fooled by training.

And then you came to the States twice or three times? Yeah, at least three times. Right. But judging, you did the AWDF, I think, one time, and then the Malina Championship just a few months ago. Also, but also one time in the North. Oh, that's right. That's right. That was with Van den Bosch was there. Yeah. So, okay. Oh, wow. There you go. That was a big honor. Yes. Yes. That was in Maine. Yeah. And how did you get into the dogs? Well, actually, that's a long story. I know. It's always a long one. Yeah. Well, I always liked animals. When I finished my high school, I started to do in the university a couple of years biology. Uh-huh. But I was not really happy. So I jumped to veterinary. And I did four years of study of veterinary. But I was, yes. And then I met over there. I got a dog that was a mix of German Shepherd and giant dog. Oh. So I was with my dog. And in the veterinary school already was a little group of people doing, were people with boxer. Actually, one of my first breeds, really favorite breed was boxers. And then they started already with the training. And then I fell in love with the part of the psychology of the dog. And you took classes too, right? You did some psychology. And also, yeah, I always was very interested. And also, I have a start that is really difficult to give the time, the line, the kids, the business and everything, and studied. But, yeah, well, I've been always, for us, it's really what we do. We are much more psychologists and trainers than, you know, than people may think. We have such a bold system of teaching and understanding about all the things you can see in our dogs that we are training that is really impressive. We also come from the swimming world. I was also, like, one of my, really my sport. And then I was teaching, I was a teacher for swimming, you know, with kids and everything. Okay. For so many years. So, yeah, a lot of the evolution we do now with dogs is so impressive that really it's, like, the sad part, you know, that we are having to excuse ourselves, you know, or they, or somebody that with such a small or so narrow view tell us how we have to do our practice. Right. Right. Because I jumped from that veterinary, I started to really be in love with the sport and the psychology and the teaching of the dogs. So it was right away IGP for you? No, no. No? I started with the idea of IGP, you know, it was RCI those days. Yes, that's right. The French and the Spanish would call it. So, but then nobody was doing the sport.

And then I saw very suddenly that the quality of the dogs we had in those moments were not so nice. So I found a group of people that has German Shepherds, but from the old Czechoslovakia line. Sure. Yes, of course. But we were, you must place us. In those days we were in the south of Spain. There were no internet, no magazines, no information. Finding. So all the knowledge was so indirect, you know? So I found these people with these dogs and then they only did like real work, you know? Like civil work, you know? For protection and aggression. So for many years was really very important for us. Okay. Like the real possibility of very intensive and very serious dogs, you know? And those days was not so problematic anymore. Yes. And then I started. Was it still with like the sleeves or the suits or everything? Or nothing. Or nothing, right? Remember newspapers? Exactly. I love it. I love it. I love it. You know, but then suits. And then we were very hungers of knowledge and trying to know. And I told you the other day I met Philip Clement. Yes. With one of his, he was, he had this German Shepard that I was so in love with him. But he was a dog that has a super health. He was able to make a record Guinness in the scaling world, you know? He was. What did he jump? Three meters 58 or something. Three meters 58. This is wild. That was the record in those days. I think now it's past, you know? Really? Some hunting dogs. Okay. Yes. I mean, I'm sure. Because it was this kind of, but in the French ring or Mondial ring style. No, no strips. There is nothing. Yes. Only the wall. You just have to climb. And the dog was doing that just because the reward was a helper in the top of the. So, you know, it's when, and then for a while, then things, the things start to move. You know, you never know how this happened. But I finally, I finished myself being a professional dog trainer. Yes. And in my concept from the beginning, I wanted to, because we were so lack of knowledge, I wanted to train a lot of dogs. Uh-huh. So, in my system of education, we have a place that with the years we come to an agreement to the, the council hall of Malaga. Uh-huh. So, we have like the public school dogs in Malaga. Nice. No, I came with this project. You have to have this probably, right? It's like easier to have some, some permission. No, no, it was totally a nightmare. So, yeah, of course, because our activity was not recognized. No. Yeah. I went to them, okay, I want to do proper training, and I want to have a legal business, and I, I want to have my space, but I, I want to be close to the city, you know, not normally, you know, our place is for dogs. Yeah.

To, to ride a very long distance to be able, but I want to be very close to the people, so we can give that service of education, but in a proper space, not in a park, not this kind of black, black market, right, right, black market training, I would say, because then you don't have like your proper structure, insurance, and facilities to make a proper. It's done the right way, for sure. Like the amazing place you have here, no, of course. But then to, to evolve in that system, we, we need to work with a lot of dogs to survive. Right. So we are running that, that, that public school from 2000. Oh, wow. Okay. And before I was already training, but, but to, to make you like a clue of, we, I think in the, you know, database, we've been training about 11,000 something dogs in those years. Wow. And we are just, Monica, me, and somebody to help us, you know. Okay. So we, we have to work a lot of dogs. Yes. Different type of animals, different, different types of, of dogs, you know. But that's what is interesting, right? Yeah. To, to have different variety. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's why, you know, when we were talking, when, when you, you narrow so much the type of training to the type of, you know, it's, it's just, I always say, no, it's like they, we come like this situation. No, I imagine you're a doctor, but you cannot use antibiotics. Right. You're a doctor, but you cannot use the scalpel or the knife, no, you can only do natural homeopathics, no, if I need, if it's, if it's for a greater good, then I must correct because, you know, this kind of understanding that all must be positive reinforcement is, of course, is our main belief, you know, but, but, and also I said, no, when we come to our sport, even is in, is mandatory, you know, we must teach positively, but we have dogs and we have, you know, like if either ideally we don't need police, but then we need police. Exactly. So for our dogs, sometimes you need to put an order and always in balance and always, you know, with a proper and logical way and always thinking in a better good for the dog, not for really mistreat them or whatever. I always can, you, of course, and you can do, you, you, you can challenge anybody to see have very high trained dog. If it's happier when he's finished his training than when he started. Right. Right. That's, yeah. That's, that's, that's so simple. No, you, you can, you see the dog and you see my, your, I can see my dog from with 12 years or your dogs with 14 years that if they have the possibility you go to the field that they want to go inside. Yes. And start training and do things with you. So clearly.

It's a crazy how. So crazy. But you see, it's this, this, this weakening, no? Because we are narrowing so much like the point of view. So the dogs that don't fit in the system, they, they have to go. Yes. We could, there is no answer. Yeah. There is no answer. Yeah. No. And also sometimes they, when you analyze the behavior of a dog or the training of a dog, you, I always say like you, we have like this, uh, four cardinal points. No, then I have the, I can reward you positively and I can give a correction. I can give you a reward social and I can get a little bit upset with you. Yeah. So we, and sometimes don't have to be the same. We can, you can give a correction, but doesn't mean that you are angry with your dog. Right. You know, no. Most of the times. It's, it's, it's, it's something that we must make really clear. And in my practices, I always try to explain that to the people. So how is it with them when you, I mean, now that the things are changing so much, you have, you have clients that come and say, well, I want my dog to be trained only positive. Right. That's very normal. Yeah. It's no, no problem. Right. But I, there is the problem that we really have is that the people don't come with their dog positive. They have correct the dog all the time. Many, many oftenly don't pull, don't pull, don't do, don't do, don't do. But they, they don't, they don't really clear the communication. Yeah. So you give a lot of correction, a lot of threading to your dog. No, no, no. I'm threading. But no, I, I am very positive because you don't give a clear correction, but you are all the time correcting your dog. You're always upset at the dog. You're socially, they, that has a meaning for the dogs. If you correct them and you don't get the, the concept, the dog is going to have two knowledges. Yes. Then I don't do what you ask me and then you're weak. If you're weak, you cannot help me. Right. And the really sad thing you see in many, many dogs that they are alone. They, they come to a really difficult society and they don't have the backup of his father. You know, in the social behavior of dogs, we know now that they, it's not a question of leadership. It's a question of fatherhood. You really are guiding your dog. They need that. Right. Because they are not dogs that live in the wild. They are dogs that live in a city that is so strange and so unusual. And they need our guidance. If we leave their natural behavior to appear, they will be chased by a car. Yeah. They wouldn't know what to do. For sure. They would not know. You know, and then, but we, that's really the beauty what in the artificial selection

we have created with the dogs. When you have a dog that is properly educated and properly training and trust you, you can adapt your dog to any sort of condition. And that's the beauty of, we have dogs that are helping blind people or people disadvantaged or living with you in the, in the city. But that dog that lives in the city totally normally can also be your friend for doing a sport together. No? And so. You know, with the blind people, it's so funny now, like so many of the schools claim that they only use positive reinforcement. And, but they have to say it because they have to do that public relations so they get money from donations. But you cannot train a guide dog for blind person only with positive reinforcement. This is absolutely not possible. Yeah, but the thing is, when you, like all the sample we have in psychology, you don't, you don't learn to not touch an iron because. Right. Right. Because, and there is no, no, you see, you go to the kitchen and you are very close to, to die in any moment. Right. You are not really, really afraid. You, you can make your life normally with that. That's. Yes. That's. And you're totally fine. If, thinking that if you do that kind of education to your dog, the dog is going to be sad and destroyed. Right. Because your dog is such a weak animal. It will be afraid of everything. Yeah. It's, your dog is so weak animal that they are not going to overcome that situation. But that's totally untrue. Yeah. And what really, when, when you analyze the behavior, no, we were talking a little bit about this threshold of avoidance, no? Uh-huh. You can have physical avoidance and social avoidance, no? Some dogs. Yes. You say, hey, oh, sorry. And, and some dogs are so sensible that you just look at them a little bit strangely and that's enough, they're concerned already. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because normally a lot of. This kind of people that claim to make everything super positive, they have border colleagues. Mm-hmm. Why? Because border colleagues were meant to listen to you when they were 500 meters away from you chasing the ships in the highest drive possible. And then the herder would say, hey, the dog was, whoa, sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Because before, no, we, they didn't have the technology. No, very true. And so they have to select this kind of dogs that are very sensible. The threshold for avoidance, social avoidance, it was so low. And then they showed you that they do only positive. It's not real. It's frustrating when you listen to it. But because for what, what is a correction for the, for your dogs, for those kind of dogs,

for our dogs that do IGP, that go to a helper really bravely, go against him and try to control him and stop him. And then they must have this physical endurance. That is one of the pities we cannot check now, no, how they overcome that resilience to the physical stress, distress. No, we, because at the end we, we wanted to create distress, not, not even pain. But when you create this distress, you alter the nervous system of your dog and then you ask your dog to make a condition. Yes. And listen to you. Yes. And then again change, again in another sort of drive, no? So what for those kind of dogs can be really, wow. For us, it's not even a carousel. Sometimes you say, you talk, hey, good dog. Right. And they are, no? Like when you see people, no? Like in American football, no? People cheering. Right, right. Exactly. Maybe they do to us and just say, hey, good boy. We go to the hospital and they are happy, no? So it's like this different naturality. And also that's for me the beauty of the dogs, no? The diversity. Yes. And that you have to make a clear theory of mine. But my responsibility when I have a dog is to make the dog safe, to have a good life, to have a healthy life, and also to take care of his mental necessities. Something to do. And also we can do this kind of amazing thing that my dog can be my partner to do a sport. Right. Right. Because you can have a dog that is just, I said, handle it, no? You know, you just go to the park, go to, if you have a goat or a cow, no? You go to the park with the doggies and then they go and you go to the veterinarian and then they stay at home and you just handle the dog, no? And you keep buying the latest new toy thinking that you're doing something really good for your dog. And then you have a dog that is educated, no? That is a dog that I create some in-between communication that is what we can express as obedience. So the dog understands me and I understand him, no? And we create this in-between knowledge that can come into a moment that we can even handle the emotional parts in our dog. Right. No? So when I have a real good communication, I say to my dog, hey, quiet, no problem. They believe. Right. And you can see how the dog feels at the moment and it doesn't... That's right. So then from that point, we can jump to a dog that is our partner to do things together. That is really what makes the dog really special. You know? Right. Because the dog can help the blind people or can be a police dog or a searching dog or a detention cancer dog. But all that cabane, we say, the number of dogs that are in those systems of analysis of programming is what we do. Yeah.

We have this mixed function, actually, you know, in our training. It's very... In our international meeting of judges, what we are. Are we a breathing system? A breathing program? Or are we a sport? And for me, we have part of both things. No? It's, of course, some... We have for sure part of both things. Because even if it's only sport, sport, sport, then everybody is like, oh, that dog is really good. And the next thing you know, he gets used for breathing. Yeah. So for sure, they are always together. Yeah, but it's like, to speak with somebody like you that have, it's not so common anymore to find a breather that has his own genetic lines. I see you have dogs that maybe 10 generations away. Yeah, I don't even know how long. It's interesting like this. Yeah, but you have it. So you have such a big knowledge. And what has been your goal? To have all the time better dogs. Dogs that are more at the table. That can fit to more different situations. That can be traveling in a plane, coming to Hong Kong, coming out of the cage. And the dog is totally normal. Try to do that with a wolf. Try to do that with the origin of what we have been building up. And then we have these wonderful animals that they come out of the box. They are totally normal. They adapt in a split second. And then you go directly for training after the flight. And they do. And they really want to. Yeah, but because it's what also. Imagine, you have an earthquake. And you have a dog that has to come into a plane. Into a really stressful place. And really a lot of noise. Distress. And they know. We know the dogs. They really read the emotions. Oh, yeah. They read the energies and they read the emotions so efficiently. No? Because it's something really that was very useful when you are a hunter. To see which one I can face or not. Yes. Try to hunt or not. And they pay attention. I mean, that's the thing. In the relationship. And also we have evolved this situation in the dogs. And we, so you have this dog that in such a big distress. And then you ask him. So. Yeah. Busca. Exactly. Search. Right, right, right. And they go directly. And we have that kind of dogs now. But it's something we have created. That's really such a beauty what we have created. Such a big culture. And that's really so pitiful that we are not recognized. Do you feel like we're losing them now? Yeah, well, we are now. I mean. Like I don't know what's going to be in a few years. Actually, what is important is we move. We cannot just be sitting and watching and just being sure that what we do is wonderful. We believe and we know. But we really have not proved it.

You know, for my practice, I know now and then we see more crossbreed because now it's very nice from the people that they don't want to buy a dog. They want to adopt a dog that has been in the shelter or in the street or whatever. But they come with this moral superiority now. So if you buy a dog, you're a bad person. If you go to a shelter. No, no. It's not. Yes, that's very true. And then we see this kind of animals that we often now we see so much fear. Because it's something we have not proved. But when you have any type of dog with a nice selection, minimum selection about health, about social behavior, about aesthetics or minimum aesthetics. And capability of function. That is what is supposed to be a breed. No. And the normal dogs are dogs that are breed by mix of mixes. So sometimes you cannot trace what type of dog are coming. And you very often see that this dog has been mistreated. And you see a lot of fear, a lot of stress. And it's not. It has nothing to do. Genetical. Exactly. Step back. Yeah. You know. Because what we do is we, you know, they come to the wolf. You bring a wolf. You try to do many trainers, no? For sure you know some trainers that they have. Okay, I'm going to have a wolf. A real wolf. And I'm going to educate him. You can do nothing. You know, because the behavior is so fixed and so natural that you cannot make. Right. Yeah, so, and when you have that kind of dogs, they are normally shy, insecure, you know. And we have these kind of wonderful dogs now that we give it for granted. No? We think that the dogs are like that for free, you know. No, no. It's our responsibility. Because if we don't do this kind of artificial selection that we must mind about the health, we must mind about the social adaptation. Yeah. We must mind about the possibility of learning. And we must mind a way of they can have some funds and endorphins, you know, to have a real life. Right. Right. And so we try to do that, you know. It's like a sport. Our sport, we can say thing a little bit the same, no? We are not going to make our dogs really bite people for real. And we are not. But I give that sense. Yes. No? It's like if you say, oh, don't take your son to karate. Exactly. I was just going to say the same. He's going to be hurt and pain. You know, yeah, but the mindset, how honest that kind of person can be, how strong can be, you know, that kind of things is what is not really understood in what we do. Right. Important. But it's not really something that is there for free. It's a cultural thing. It's such a beautiful cultural effort. And we have created in such a long, short term.

And for this kind of situation, even for these people to breed dogs, it's a kind of exploding the females, you know, or something so illogical, so unfair. Yeah. And you know, for me, it's as human beings, we have that tax to the dog. We must improve them. Right. And to improve the dog is what a breed means. No? The breed is nothing but a functional adaptation. And it's not because I want a dog, some dogs for, luckily, but the type of dogs we all like, no? Or we really are in love with. Yes. Are dogs that have this possibility of adaptation. And we are having in not so long time, every time, better dogs, no? Remember, like German shepherds nowadays, in the good bloodlines of German shepherds, every time we have less and less hip problems. Yeah. Because we've been historically checking the hips many times. And it can appear, but it also appears in the wolves. And also in the wolves, you have this, you know, it's something that is in the nature, it's normal. Right. Not even if it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's unpaid, it's un I always make this kind of different point of view. There are breeds that are very alive and that are evolving, and breeds that they just want to keep their shape. But those kind of breeds, depending on the breeds, they are in very high risk. But really these kind of breeds that we love, these utility breeds for tracking or hunting or sledding, for all the activities, they are very alive. You go to Labrador, nowadays there are such a wonderful Labrador with such a nice drive, such a nice self-control. Especially in the States, the hunting Labrador are amazing. I know, I know. We like all sorts of dogs. Very true. Very true. But what do you think about the gene pool being, you know, always... So let's say you breed always these Labrador to these ones and eventually becomes very close. Yeah, actually natural selections tell you the truth. Then you start, if you narrow too much the pool gene, then you start having big problems, you know. That's why it's so important. We have this, like, that's one of the beauties of the Malinois, that we are not just doing this, you know,

and we have another, like yourself, you know. I was very interested in your breeding. You have these lines you have, but then you say, okay, I'm going to jump to these Belgian lines again, and then I come back, and then, you know, you have this possibility, this variety. You don't need to be close in your lines because there is nothing to check around. You see, you have your dog, but suddenly you see something, okay, oh, this can be very interesting. I can, but you have that variety because we have this possibility, this open pool, you know. Yeah. And that's one of the things, the good things in Mali, German Shepherds, in Labrador, I think, for what I know, they also have very proud sort of people. In Border Collies, it's also amazing, you know, the level of quality and diversity of Border Collies being the same breed you can find. Yeah. Even, you know, in some hunting. So, for me, there is like two types of breeds, you know. That's how I feel. The breeds that are very alive and that are in a system of selection still by utility and dogs that are in this preserving the breed because of the character and also in the best of the cases, they only go to shows and are nice dogs for companion. You know, that dogs are a little bit on risk and the dogs we really love, I think now they are in a super interesting moment, no? Yeah. And especially in our program, remember, we were talking about 2019. We did nothing new. Right. But really follow the philosophy framework and the description that is on the rules. You know, and our description is that is on the rule. We must mind very much the emotional part in the dog. So, now we read the emotional part, the technical part, how the dog really, when you say any command, no, just like sit, then the dog, how he react to the command. If he's a positive reaction or is a communication or is a reflex and you see some problem that then I am, because then I know the dog is going to be rewarded afterward, but then the reaction was bad, you know? Right. And we value that now. Yes. And now that kind of the emotional part is going to mean a 30% of the notes. So, if you evaluate also the helps, no? We have done different sports, no? Right. Like in obedience program, no? The FCI obedience program. If you do a little help, the exercise is zero. Not a deduction of the qualification that we have in our sport. It's zero. I know. It's really terrible, eh? You see, but just a little help with the head, a little help with the hand, that then if you evaluate that kind of things and also the emotional response of the dog and also the technical correction, perfect technical correction and put that together,

then the qualifications become very bad, for me, in the right direction, no? And also in 2019 was like the first, this FNBB you were mentioning, was like the first competition with the new rules, really the first big competition with the new rules, where the foos was 15 points instead of 10. Oh, that's right. And the seed was 5 points instead of 10. And that's when you added the percentage specifically for technical, emotional, and handler help, right? Yeah. So then when you put that in value, but there is, for me, it's always, when you, the points are not so high, it's sportive, because if suddenly come a dog that we have in our mind, our picture, no? When I see the imaging of a dog, I am very positive towards the dog. You know, I think they can do it, no? But we must follow the dream. Right. That's the 100. Right, right, right. That's the dream. That is. No? So. A dream. Yeah, of course. And nowadays it's a dream, but I think that that is sportive, because if suddenly come the dreams, it's not going to have one or two points more. Yes. It's going to have the dream, it's going to have the respectful space, no? You know, it's a, so, yeah, of course, the points, but I think always in FMV video, it's like, it's being always like this, this example of following the rules, actually. Right. We were not, we were not inventing nothing, no? But, oh, in the rule set that we are going, that the dog must be happy, concentrate, relax, and we take that in consideration. Before, we have it in rules, but maybe we didn't went really deeply on that. Right. And, but there was nothing new, actually, no? It's just, That's interesting. When did you start with the judging? Oh, it was something I was, it was a tramp from my wife. Yeah? Send up the applications for me. Oh, yeah? Because I, I like it. I didn't, I thought, well, maybe, no, that she did. And, and we have, the, a very intense exam was, for me, was very, very nice education those days. Actually, one of the sad things, I am a little bit upset with some organization that there is the back, you know, and don't keep that, I have to, to make a very deep education. And also, because, I was helping assistant judges, many years also, as translator. Okay. In some competition, with very nice, very nice judges. I will have that, that really super pressure, and super luxury, to be together with them, at the beginning, before I was judging. And I, and you, and you know, when we are professional trainers, we have this, is, I think it's, or does, even in the FCI, in the FCI, it's so well, and so nice, described, the knowledge, that is supposed to have a judge, before he can apply, for, and then, we, we must have, knowledge about, physiology of the dogs,

psychology of the dog, and not, not only the training, no? Right. So this brought, brought education, about dogs, and so I, I think, it's really, really in the right way, and you have to have, several dogs, in the level, at GP3, before you can apply, you know? In Spain, we need three dogs, at GP3, and some, have some nice results, to be, to be considered, as possible, candidate, for becoming a judge. So I had, to do, that education, and then, was very nice, because they asked, just to evaluate, only championships, no big championships. So, it's, for me, it's, when it becomes, this become very, very interesting, no, actually. And then, very, very, I think was, like, 10 years ago, was not, was not so long ago. Okay. Not so long ago. because, you know, I, you know, I, really respect, this figure, of, of being, a judge, and the responsibility, of, of a judge, is so, so big, that, I think, I was not really, prepared, no? Right. it's, when you respect something, so much, it's, it's, really, I, I thought, that's very cool, because then, you, you respect the dogs, you respect the competitors, you, you know, it's, it's a very good thing. Exactly. We know everything, no? You, you see, you can see every help, no? Maybe from the outside, you don't see the help, but when you are, come, or you're close, you see the help, and you see the, really, a split second of, emotion that could be, a little bit more free, or more open, that behavior, you take it. You take that in consideration, you know, in the evaluation, and you, to have, like a very good job, that must be a clean job, you know? Right. There is, there cannot be, not even a moment of that. That's why, it's so, so unfair, that anybody, is, pointing at us, as not being respectful, for the dogs, they have no idea. I know, that's a very, very upsetting thing. They don't know, how deep we go now, that, how, how, how complex, but we, want dogs, you know, the dogs that are really powerful, and that can have, that's the, the unfortunate, it's, it's a, yeah, I have no idea, like we, that exact thing, that you're saying, that, we care so much, about how the dog feels, and, and, and, put so much, thinking of, how to train, better. Actually, you know, we were talking, nobody does this. We, we are talking about that, no, actually, when we have, when we do a sport, we have, very well adapted social, what, first, what we do, when we, enter this world, we do VH, right, check the social behavior, but not in a normal situation, but, very intense, checking, right, right, right, and that kind of, very intense checking, first, we check, that the dog has, the possibility of, learning, and express, some, conditionings, but, must be positive, I, come, in my, is, the task of, any judge, if I see, any, bad behavior, from the owner, to the dog,

is disqualification, no argument, about that, right, end of story, yeah, yeah, yeah, you see any, just little sign, of, disrespect, to the dog, you, stop, actually, you know, some, even in the, in the big trials, you, if you say no, to a dog, is disqualification, right, you know, how deep we go, right, but we do that, in a dog, that can perform, the protection, with dominance, and strength, and really, trying to stop, the helper, and being able, to change, between drives, and become, social, to you, very easily, and change, in a split second, between different, parts of his brain, no, because it's what, we play with, right, right, dominance, or, aggression, activity, but really, the concept, what we really, search, and the passive, and the active, and the control, yeah, it's like, protection, is always, we start with, obedience, in drive, but the dog, we know, all our dogs, know, where, where they're going, exactly, so, but they, they must listen to you, and then when they come, they must make a confrontation, and that confrontation, is dominance, is, like, what really, what it means to be, is, don't move, don't move, until my handler come, you stay here, until my handler come, that's the real, meaning, of what we do, you know, so, from that situation, then, the dog must make, an obedience, a cognition, they have to change, for that behavior, that can be, instinctive, or, you know, very extensive drive, then they have to do, an obedience, then, from that obedience, we put the dog, to guarding, then, they start in another, mood, they, want to hunt, no, from that hunting, the dog really, tries to stop, chase and stop, yeah, the guy is, trying to run away, and the dog, wants to stop, the guy for you, and he must have, a solid grip, so, he does, as less, harm as possible, right, that's, really the, the reason, yeah, yeah, for sure, so, for sure, and then, the guy stop, and then, the dog has to listen to you, and then, change the drive, for a hunting drive, he start, with, another, dominance, towards the helper, to say, don't dare to move, and from that, they start, with a combat, and they, has to overcome, this, psychological pressure, and, unlucky now, we cannot test, the physical pressure, because we don't have, the, the soft, stick, that was, very, not harmful, for the dog, but, was, able to create, some stress, and from that, situation, a social pressure, from the helper, and also, some distress, that we create, with this soft stick, yeah, the mistake for me, was, that was very noisy, but not, making, really, no harm, but, then, from that situation, yeah, because, sometimes, if the public see, true, you hear, this, far, far, yeah, but, we were not really, hurting the dog, because, most of us, even, do that for fun, no, for sure, and we make, with the soft stick,

we hit ourself, and there's no pain, but there is a lot of noise, but we create, some distress, and then, with that distress, the dog has to listen to you, immediately, you know, and then, again, become an obedient, so, we are switching, between mental parts, of a dog, and we think, we are doing something normal, but it's amazing, what we do, right, you know, to have the dog, in a super high drive, and then, and the super good trainers, as yourself, you go, and you see, wow, the dog was super high, and then, boom, block, self-control, that's the beauty, no, for sure, but, it's something, that you create, with your training, with the sign of your training, but because we have, such a super nice dogs, today, that can do that, you know, and then, the training, like, because of this, I mean, you're explaining it, so, beautifully, the, like, this kind of training, the more we understand it, the better, training, we can do, for any dog, outside, the sport programs, you know, this is the real, the real thing, I always joke with my wife, as professional, this is our investigation, and development, where, where you, put the techniques, in these dogs, that you try, later, to put it in normal dogs, right, of course, we have such a, you know, we have, we use so many, mental tools, actually, no, now we have, in this concept, no, we use mental tools, in our, when, when we have, like, I have sometimes, these conversations, with, with the trainers, that, they never do sports, they don't understand sports, and, and this kind of conversation, they, they can never understand, the value, of, of, what, dog sport, like IGP, can, bring, to you, as a dog trainer, like, you become, a dog trainer, on a different level, when you get, to that place, to understand, all the things, that you explain, so, so nice, you know, I always say, no, it's like, imagine, to learn German, is so ugly, so, I don't like that, but, why, because you don't speak German, right, if you, you speak German, you fall in love, or, Bulgarian, or Spanish, you know, yes, yes, yes, so, no, that, because, why, because you, don't really understand, when you really, when, when you, really do understand, and you tell me, that this is bad, but tell me, somebody with good results, this experience, this crazy love, actually, no, because, right, for us, it's crazy, you are teaching people, you are training dogs, you are, and then, for fun, you're reading, and we still keep on, training our dogs, you know, that, so, there is something, really, that, if somebody comes, and is really, you know, like yourself, and you say, no, sport is, but, the more we are in it, the more we love it, this, for us, is, our passion, is our way of life, the more respect we have it, you never find the people, that, that, and say, no, no,

this is a disaster, but nowadays, our, with the interpretation of IGP, it's, it's amazing, it's so, so difficult, you must have a dog, that has self-esteem, self-secureness, in the tracking, and totally autonomy, because you are 10 meters away, correct, and the dog, must be focused, attentive, concentrates, intensive, you know, all these adjectives, we evaluate, when we see the dog, and that same dog, must be, very sensible to you, very willing to please, very fast, in their exercises, and very powerful, also, and all these adjectives, again, but in a really, super controlled way, that the dog, is really, with another dog, totally free, we cannot, in IGP-3, you know, we cannot even, touch the collar, right, right, cannot say the dog, stay with me, right, the dog is totally free, so, it's, and we see, this happy, attitude in the dog, joyfulness, and we check for any, detail of, this distress, and then, we punish it so much, nowadays, and that same dog, that is happy, active, sensible to you, come to the protection, and it's our dominant dog, that hold the guy, and really stop the guy, and then listens to you, so clearly, so, it's really impressive, the sort of dog, that our program, try to find, and if we embrace, and we really believe, in the program, we are, I, for me, it's so clear, we are improving dogs, for sure, we are improving dogs, and we are improving training, and, there always, there always, going to be some, something going on, that it's, bad, there always will be, some stupid, ass, trainer, that will do stupid things, you can, you can find that, the stupidness, exactly, it's not to do with the program, it's not to do with dogs, it's just, they are stupid, they are, nobody, nobody, nobody, notice how, how intense, we are, in that protection, but, you know, what I was thinking, to ask you about the, because that, definitely, 2019, FMBB, was a big, surprise to a lot of people, and a big shift, and, I personally, really like it, because, I didn't need to see the competition, to, to like it, I, that's how I think about training, anyway, but, what do you think, at the time, when, when, it was happening, how were the competitors, were, were they understanding, what's going on, or, or, was it like, really just a complete mess, you know, like, what, what do you think? That, that competition was, was, very, very tricky, because I, I, I lost a lot of, supposed friends, on the way, so, not many understood, what's happening, but, it's, it's, it's, you know, the, the problem is, for many people, they do the sport, but they've never read the rules, right, no, they have never written, right, if you don't read the rules, and you don't really understand, just, you just, need to go, just, to the, first, page of the rules, don't read anything else,

just, the preamble, no, just read it, and really, understand it, and take it, I really believe, you know, I think, it can be even evolved, but, as I said, we are in a, in a framework, a philosophy framework, no, and we describe, that, it's, part of our task, to work the drug, I do really believe it, you know, it's, the, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, ! A lot of people have mechanical training, I say, a little bit. You have a dog that is looking up because he's looking to the armpit, right? And looking up because you have a little stick to tell him to have the head higher. No, no, no, it's not what this means. You know, sometimes you have this kind of training that you want to fake a reality, to lie to a judge, to present a communication. No, no, what we want is a dog that is willing to please, willing to be paid in some sort of form and wants to have a connection with you. If a dog is... I really feel stupid talking, telling you these kind of things because you're really a master. No, but that's a really good conversation to have. When a dog is able to look to your eyes, it's creating a deep communication with you. Right. That's why we want the dog not looking up because it looks fancy. No, they look up because they want to read your eyes. Yeah. They want to read what you are telling them. They are really willing to say, hey, what do we do? If you have a dog that has pressure, it cannot keep the eyes within you because that's... It's a logical response. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very true. If you put pressure, the dog cannot put to you. If you just in the recall, if the dog is not really confident to you, we have this situation, like the dumbbell and the recalls, the dog has to really trust you because to be able to come and look to your eyes directly is because the dog is communicating very well with you and he is holding something in his mouth and bring it to you. And if he is looking to your eyes, it's because he is understanding. Right. And he is communicating. No? You cannot fake that. And he is feeling comfortable communicating. If the dog is not with you, the dog is not looking at you. And if the dog is under pressure, will be never because his natural reaction will be to take the eyes out of you. He is going to show submission, no? That pictures we all know when we have dogs. So, in our program, we want to see communication, trust with his handler. But let me ask you this, how many judges do you think understand communication? No, no. They... They... It's the mass, it's the education. Because I tell you my thinking, my thinking is that... I think... A lot of judges, I'm not saying all of them, but a lot of judges are very used

to that picture of how so many trainers train, that it's all fake picture, that it's not... That it's not what we are really looking for. So, when you get used to that picture, and you see it different, you almost feel like the right way is wrong, because it just becomes an exception, right? Yeah, but... You know, I listened to your podcast very eagerly. And you had this nice conversation with Ari. Ah, yeah. And Ari was just telling that. Yeah. Right. I was totally so agree with him. He... He... He said, no, like, a lot of people do, like, some sort of, and then one is doing their proper concept. And then we can't even punish the one that was doing the proper concept. Right, right, right. Because it feels strange. And then, because it's very typical to have a dog, look into the sky. No, it's not that. Right. Because you can create that picture through muscle memory, no? You know, when you create this, you put the line and them, but you don't have the really communication that is that a dog that has the... willing to communicate with you and is in drive, but has the knowledge to be in that side. Mm-hmm. Or you put the dog just in a box and then the dog is doing like a... It happens like in agility training. No? You see this technique of a slalom technique. Mm-hmm. No? How some dogs learn to do the slalom without no cognitive understanding, but just muscle memory. Right. You have this pool and then they close it and then they make the zigzag, you know? So, that can be applied to our healing. But it's not what it's meant to be. What it's meant to be is that I want to create communication, but I am able to have the self-control and the knowledge to be in the proper way with the right communication, with the drive emotion, actually, no? So, do you think a lot of trainers are starting to... Oh, yeah. To pay attention. I think that is coming. I think that is coming. And also, like, the trainers we admire and I think they are getting the good results are in that concept. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like the women trainers have a little bit better feeling for this. That's my feeling. Yeah, it's... Well, actually, that's the beauty, no? We were talking about this emotional part, no? So, yeah, they come... We can be a little bit more brute and the women can have that sensibility. And for me, it's wonderful, but what we must analyze is that we are having that kind of dogs that have that social behavior and that sensibility, but still, they are very powerful animals. Mm-hmm. They are very healthy and they are very powerful, you know? And they are very adaptive.

And that is what really is really from that even we are helping the society, no? For sure. Yes. And that's really the sad thing, no? In the situation we have. We are improving the health, the physical condition, the power of a dog. So, we want a dog that is... Because we have to put so much effort, so much training, so we are so careful now with the health of our dogs. I love listening to this. I get excited just listening to this. But it's so true. Yeah, yeah. Because what for me, you know, and for sure, for you, what is important? A dog that starts, we start since puppy, we put that effort. We put the dog three years training in our sport until we come to the first trials, you know? And we being careful with the genetics, with the health, we check hips, we give the best food, we keep them in training. We breathe them at home because we need them later to be able to go to... From you, like you put your dog in a flight and come to Europe normally. Yes, yes. And then in two, three days, the dog must be 100%. Yeah. And even with a super result, you were able to achieve. That's not normal. Yeah, yeah. Very true. So, it's something that really is what we really must defend because we are improving so much our dogs, you know? The characteristics, the... We want dogs that are in that level of results with two years, but they are improving in the years, you know? The people I really like to follow is the people that are able to have results with the dog, and then even being able in the time to improve because then you are not lying to your dog. When you have done 20 times IGP-3, the dog knows that when you come to the field, you are not going to be able to lie to your dog. You cannot punish and you cannot reward. So, the only thing that is real is the connection and communication with your dog. And the... The enjoy of the dog for doing that task for the enjoyment of doing it. Right. Right, right, right. But also because they enjoy and we check that when you make... We are not our assistant, no? We need to go to selections, then you go to the championship, and then the same year... The same dog, if you are lucky and you want to have your dog in that idea for many years because you put so much effort. So, who is going to be more careful than us to not create a chronical stress? No. So, I will tell you a little twist of this conversation that is so upsetting. So, like we would have in the States, I don't know for Europe, but in the States right now, there were few scientists did some study. So, like we would have just searched on the internet dog trainers. Yeah. It's like you are a male or female trainer.

You are whatever age group. And then they start to see, well, are you training IGP dogs or ring sport dogs or... And if you are doing certain things... I mean, this is even like the University of Davis in California, like a big, very, very legit university. And they would do this and now they are teaching when they go through their program, the students, that if somebody is a dog trainer and is training dogs for IGP, it's automatically put in a certain category, a type of person that is a very bad person and is doing horrible things to the dogs. Amazing. And you should avoid it at all costs if you have a dog and you're searching for training. This is where we are today in the States. Well, actually, that's like the same. How... That's one of the beauties of our sport. Right. How many wonderful people, you know, in this sport that have this really... For us, we share this kind of craziness. We are from different backgrounds, cultures, and we have the same passion and we... And that desire to get better, like every day. Yeah. Like... And also, you can check in any other sport and you'll see not such a big effort to describe the welfare in the dog. 100% correct. The positive attitude in such a different task. And nowadays, the dog, when you come to there, the dog is totally free. Right. The dog has the right... You can lie to a dog two, three times, four times, but in our dogs that go to the high competitions, do the official training, when you go to the official training, you cannot even take a leash. You cannot even have a little stick to tell the dog where the position is going to be clear. Not, you know, that kind of thing that we are being so careful now. Right. And we put it to ourselves and we believe it because we believe it. So, and how... How many people in this sport, you know that they don't love dogs? Mm-hmm. Nobody. It's not possible. Nobody. You, we are here because we love the sport and the people that give you the reference and give you like the advantage in the training all the time. How is the training going? Everything more natural, more positive, not more knowledge, more clever techniques to create in the positive expression of the education, you know, but not never say, you know, it's a, this, this kind of fight against the, the, the tools, but the tools. Really, when you come to a normal training, you don't see them. Right. We, we, we can train without tools. Right. You know, we, I actually, we, we, we have that by law, but we've been training without tools so many years. You know, because we, we think you, you can, in our sport must be sport.

Another thing is if you, if we need to control a dog or the education, but in our sport, we don't need the tools. And actually, I really, it's, it's in the evolution of the training. Now, we, we even sometimes have that problem, you know, that we make our dogs so clever that can, we can low even the intensity of drives. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it's very true. There, there is like a, there's actually, man, I, I just have like five thoughts at the same time. So I don't know where to go now. Hopefully I remember them all, but with the, like, like there is people when you use, like, let's say, let's take the electric color. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people use it. But when you use it and you only rely on that, that you're going to make your dog active, that you're going to make your dog want to, that you're going to make, like, this is all, uh, not what we are trying to accomplish. No. We want the dog to want to, not to be made to. That's right. And there's a huge difference. No, because you know, it's, it's like, it's, it's in the rules. Actually. Right. You know, it's so, but even if it's not just IGP, if I, I want the dog that wants to create and make, and please not to avoid an escape. You know, you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. So, you can have dogs with a really old technique, but always there is, um, you can see the problem. Right. You know? Right. Because you, you can see maybe then the dog is pushing too much to the hand there. They, they, in certain moments, the dog should be more open. You know, these kind of emotional details that you cannot, some people is so skillful that you very, small, you can't see it. You know, this, the task when you go to World Championship, no? To just check those. Right. And, and we have like the picture of, of the positive and really what is mean to, and you see that everything was positive in this dog. What is, for me, what is really the difference is that we, we must create the emotional framework. No? We must make our dog happy. Mm-hmm. And then we create the teaching. You know, because then, you know, it's the emotional association, no? Right. Then you, you make the drive, you make your dog happy and willing to work. And then we start teaching. And you're starting from a very different angle. No. And by, I, I don't know even what to call it. But really there is this whole theories of how, I mean, I'm sure you know, it's like, okay, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make my dog want to. And, and, and of course, when you have some, you something aversive, the dog is like, I, I, I, but that's not. Yeah. By.

You, you can, the problem is with, through irritation, you can fake activity. Right. You know, but it's, it's, but we don't, we don't want to analyze that actually. No. What we want is the dog that is willing to please. And it's, and the two are very easy to see. To, to, to, to, I think they're very easy to see when you know what you watch. You know, but the problem is when, when you think that the only way, you know, I, you find sometimes in, in like the old system of training, you know, you think the dog, but this ideal concept that we are willing to. To achieve, the dog will not be able to get it. Right. But we believe in dogs. Right. You know, I, I really think that the dog can do what the rule said. I don't have to fake activity. I don't have to hide and, and evitation to look like active, you know, I don't have to create irritation. So that creates this. Exactly. This, you know, is, well, in psychology has to be a problem. In psychology has a name noise. Like I don't, I know the name for in Spanish, sorry, but it's this opening process, no? So you create that irritation and release can fake activity. Right. Exactly. And it's not what it's meant to be. This is not the utility dog. The utility dog is a dog that is willing to please, listens to you. Yeah. Do directly, openly, and free of will, actually, you know? So that's, and our rules are in that direction is we are not praising that. We are praising the natural and the really willing to please of the dog, no? And, you know, some training can fake that situation, but it's, it's always like the positive view of the, of the dogs. A lot of people don't train a dog like a good dog. You train the dog because you think it's not going to have drive enough, of energy enough. Or if it's going to show you the middle finger or whatever. You know? And so, but really the people in the training that I really respect, my friends from Belgium, my, you know, this, this really for me, some, some people that is reference. They really believe in dogs. They, they believe they don't can do it. Right. If not, then I have the skills to make a fake reality. But we like, like in the protection, no? Why do sometimes people create like this kind of instability in some sort of surface? So the dog is a little bit in a stable and then look like he's having more aggression, but we don't want to see aggression. We want to see dominance. We want the dog that is secure, self secure, and stop the, the guy in a clear manner, but not just like, you know, it's really that balance. But now we have what you said, no?

Maybe people see a dog that is showing dominance and they don't understand. They can think the dog is lacking aggression. Right. You know, it's this, this, this, this evolution. It's not easy for, for, for, for a lot of people. It's not easy to do. Yeah, because it's so standardized. Like, you know, it's not, not, not, not, not this year. Yeah. And also what we, I think you talk, when you have a dog that is socially very strong and can show real dominance, then it's not so easy for training. Right. That should be the goal. And for me, that should be what we really must keep the space for that kind of difficulty, no? Because we are with all the psychological tools in the animal, no? So if we just work in some kind of part, but not the whole picture at the whole evolution, then we should praise, no? That, that kind of behavior, no? And that kind of training that is more difficult, no? Is when you teach a dog to really teach tracking in the positive way or number work in the positive way, takes so long. That's thing. No? And the old days, how you teach, no? Let's say, 30 years ago, yes. How long you take to teach a dumbbell? Two days, three days, a week? You know? So now we are in this kind of, we prepare the interchange and from that interchange we start and then we start and then we get so many. It's a big production today, for sure. That's for sure. That's amazing. And that's really the pity that it's not respected, no? The technique, the psychological techniques we are putting in our dogs, the basic material we are having in our dogs and how these concepts are evolving. And how, because now is knowledge, no? Before you, like everything in science, no? We are putting a lot of science in what we do in our dogs now. Oh, for sure. But, you know, and we are evolving so much, you know? But in every aspect, you can see how much is changing now, like the training in the swimmers, the training, even the people that how they, we are changing our system of feeding. You know, like before, oh, to come into, we were talking with your wife about the exposure to the cold. No, you're going to be so sick if you know. And now we see that you go and you do your planche, then the dopamine really rise and the immune system really improve. And, you know, so the science is changing and we are open to improvements. And what we are doing actually is respecting our natural behavior, our physiology, you know? And so what we do, if we really want to improve the dogs, we must do it improving that kind of things, you know?

I want the dog that really wants to listen to me, that has more self-control, that is more stable, that can be in different environments, adapt very well. And he's healthy since I have him until I stop training with him because he's like in the age, you decide that he is not so healthy anymore. But we all like this kind of dogs that has been champions, you know, or they have good results, maybe when they were maybe two years and then with nine years, you know, we have some kind of reference, you know? That's for me, then you cannot do all this difficult sport without the dog really putting it and really enjoying what he's doing, you know? So that's the real factor, you know? We don't fake reality. Even we expose our relationship with the dogs and the capability of adaptation and the way we train. And we have the obligation of the judges is to be aware of that and be so intensive against anything that is not really respectful to your dog. Right. In the level that we have seen, you know, that go to a championship, then a lady say no to a dog because he was going to do a jump and she said, no, don't do that jump. And we have that interruption directly. No, no comment. Yeah, that was very true. So, yeah, it's really when they say something wrong about what we do is because they don't really understand what we are doing. But they're not even trying to understand. That's the upsetting thing. Yeah. There's nobody trying to understand that. But I think it's, we have not really, we have not done our work. We have not really proof that what we are doing is so good for the dogs. Right. Yeah. That me and you, we know, and I totally know if you see a dog that is coming from our type of selection and normal dogs or dogs without breed, you see such a huge difference. Yeah, huge difference. For sure. For sure. But we have not proved that scientifically. You know, it's something still to be done. And also, we are… But all the canine science people, they're not interested in that. They're really just stuck in this because it brings like their peers, everybody, they have agreed on something. You know, it has come even into the education of the kids. Yeah, yeah. So it was something that we were watching in our education of our kids. But now a lot of scientific people is saying, hey, we are, our dogs, our kids, sorry, our kids are becoming too weak. They cannot face the real world. Right. They are really under a lot of stress very easily because we have keep them such in a cloud that then we can, they come to the real life and they cannot handle the situation. Yeah, they're not prepared to go to work.

But that's, that's our task. Our fathers, no? We are, we are fathers. That's a, that's really your obligation not to be nice to your kid but to prepare him for the future. No? To try to give a good education and to prepare them for the future, no? It is interesting. That's a small, that small education is what we do with our dogs. Yeah? Of course, I enjoy, I really, you and me, we really love dogs but my, my dogs are not a substitute of my sons. Right. We, we have four sons and they, we, we love our dogs but we, we, they are not, we are not having dogs because we don't have friends. Right. Or, or because we have nothing better to do or because we don't have family, no? We have dogs but because they are a complement. So, amazing complement that really is a way to enjoy nature, you know? And, it's also. I mean, I can see how some people really, they just, you know, like there is a lot of people that are lonely and struggle and they need that dog. Yeah, but that's, it's a good thing, you know? That's really respectful. It's a good thing, you know? Exactly. Exactly. And it's one of the amazing utilities that the dog has for the society. Exactly, right. You know? Yeah. There are a lot of studies about having a dog helps you to have less heart attack, less heart disease problem, less depressive problem. You know, that's, that's really science. That is, that's really proven. But, if we leave the dogs only on that, that can be done by, you know, like, by a cobaya. You can breed loving cobayas and then you don't need the dogs. You can breed loving rabbits. Sure, sure, sure, sure. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because dogs, it's something that they can do, but what's not really, you know, it's something super respectful and really we love it. And we also, in our practice, we do therapy dogs. And especially my wife is super, super good in that. And there, there, there are times where we have to do some, like, like the dogs have to know also that there is, okay, we, we're, I, you like it. Just like how you can play a, you know, any game, right? You can play any game, but the game has rules and you break the rules and there is a penalty for the breaking the rules. Yeah, but the thing is, when, when you do that, we, we, we, we do it so naturally, you know? Right. That it is, and, and we do it with so healthy brain dogs that they have no problem with it. Right, right. You know, the, the, the problem is when you think that your dog is so weak because you think your dog is, you know, when, when I, when, when we talk each other, I can think that you are intelligent person and we can go deep.

And even if I say something that is not really pleasing, but you, you're going to understand and you are going to overcome. Or I think that you're stupid. And then I have to say everything very softly. Right. Very carefully. Yeah. No. But I, I think my, my dogs are super. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, ah, okay. Ah, these are the rules, daddy. Okay. I cannot bite the, the, the, the, the, the food in the kitchen or I cannot really destroy that. Okay. I cannot. Okay. No problem. Okay. I have, you know, okay. I have to release because then you give me another one and then we can keep on playing. Okay. No problem. So, right. So, right. Or I can think that my dog is so weak that if I give a correction, then I'm going to give such a big problem to my, what, what do we are thinking? What, what you are thinking about the dogs? Are you thinking that they are so weak? Right. You know, when in the nature, they have to really struggle for their lives. They have to really hunt. They have to really survive. And we, in the best scenario, we think the dogs, we have changed from that natural selection 17, no, 35,000 years. I, I heard in some, but really the, the old analysis, I think is 14,000 years. No, no more. You know, yeah, it's, it's in the, in the evolution. It's nothing. Yeah. Right. Right. We, we have the same animal. We have, we are trying to destroy dogs. You know, we are thinking about this weak animal, but they are not. Right. You know, if you love your dog, you think it's so weak that if you give a little correction, it's going to be crying all during weeks and destroyed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah style of training today they have no idea but of course we we have to have to make this sport to make this teaching we need to have the dogs in control but in in the nature have you ever seen a mother you have you're a really good breather and you know how positive them how how the mother

teach the puppies give a clicker give food if right is there in between the dogs the real language in their real dogs in the natural right dogs is there any positive teaching between them the actual teaching is not yeah it's not but you know when when we respect our dogs when we love our dogs when we really respect the nature of our dogs our first act is to understand them right and to really teach them in the natural way and respectful way and in the nature how much how how how much positive learning do you find you know but that's uh and don't you think this is a big problem in europe right now and i don't think i have any advice or solution for it you know it's uh like um we we have uh again no it is like it's coming through education but the science is evolving and the knowledge is evolving so now even even in the education of the kids that now there is some warning alarms no say hey be careful we are we we must create resilience into our kids right we cannot do everything cotton right no so if we do everything so nice or positive of course we believe in the positive explanation because it's science it's going to be more efficient in the long term that's why we also do it right no because it's more efficient no if if you if if i give you a nice food but i make you eat it then you like then you don't like that food anymore right and so we convince our dogs only to do the things that they love and because even there is some balance no you must do this but it's for us like our life no you must be a educated person even if you get angry with your neighbor don't shoot to the neighbor or whatever and there is no no no problem because your education is giving you that possibility to overcome that that problem you go to in the traffic you have somebody uh making flaxen to you to really go and then okay do you don't go or you can become crazy or going no but your first thought is an animal thought and maybe you want to become violent and you are able to control yourself and there is no problem there is no problem you know and and we have you know like we were saying in the sport now ah don't don't run so much iban because then you are going to be sore then don't you don't do so much push up because you're going to be tired no no because then you're never going to be willing to do a sport again but no you know you you have your god you you have the the knowledge and also you are respecting yourself as human being being physical and being emotional and be intellectual but we have everything no and we believe our dogs can have everything no and they can overcome that sort of

problems in this in a good way because we are the first one and even the dog when they do their sport they have the freedom to go they can correct that's that's in the first second yes in our in our moment he says i don't want to do it there is nothing no chance that's it the judges we are there to make sure that if the dog is not happy and is not willing to do it we stop we stop we don't nowadays you you don't see if you see a sad dog like in the like high competition it's not even that no but if you see a dog we we have that moral obligation if we see the dog that is not willing to be we can interrupt right and and and we we have done it i i have done it okay so no no sorry today your dog is not comfortable here i think your dog is limping a little bit then we must stop yes you know of course so it's when as you were saying no like the the people that we are doing the sport that we are bad person to the dogs or we are really bad persons but it's really incredible it's really sad no as you said very clearly you know like in i don't know how it is in spain but like something that hurts us right now well not not so much here but i'm sure we are getting in the states a little bit of the the the same wave but in europe at this point and in europe i mean like specifically germany austria switzerland the the you know the you you have the the those activists have taken over so much yeah yeah that right now even like even if you if you want to make a video of dog training or you want to write a book of dog training you're telling lies to people you're not honest about yeah what real dog training is you know and this is also very dangerous in my practice no i you you have this situation now i have it by law i have it by law because even i can lose my license right right right right right possibility of being involved in dog training and this is our is our passion but it's our life yes we are professional dog trainers so if they catch me using a collar right i can lose the so even imagine now i have a really nice person that has that has a we were talking also we have that kind of examples all the time no a person that has some kind of injuries but the dream of his life is to have a dog that can be strong and be able to perform and be active but they don't want to give up and having just a dog that has no energy and and just is with them no that but they want to have a dog that transmits them energy and life yes yes and they they they have dogs so when they pull you you know maybe they don't have the possibility of teaching only

positively because they don't have the but they they don't tell you it's also the framework of time that you need to create a positive correct or expression we we we know for sure and we explore and we really go deep in that teaching because he's our must in our sport and we really know but who who is going who is willing to stay six months teaching something until you really create the concept in a correct sometimes no no because for for some for some people they they need this solution now to be able to be yesterday to keep to keep the life with the dog to save the life to the dog not to send them to kennel no you know but so now you cannot be honest with that people you cannot right you cannot help them yeah and you when the people come you say no before what we could do maybe in three months now we can do only pure positively it's going to take you one year no i i am totally against the pure negative if in a way of speaking no right so we never use negative teaching you know but that what what is really makes the difference is that how you teach you know we were talking you you create a emotional framework and that you create a technique of teaching your dog the what we are really in is we always teach positively once the dog knows then you can do two things if you don't do what i taught you i can give you a correction or information that you were not doing right or i do nothing i only wait until you do for yourself only do right so you can reinforce yeah yeah but it is is so because then we think in the dog if we do that we are going to create them such a stress such a problem but it's like if you have somebody if you are a police you see some fight a guy is hitting to to imagine his wife or a friend no i have to wait until he stops hitting them and when he hits i give him 10 10 dollars it's so unlogical no you know why why do you think you can be effective with that in that situation you you know well of course if you if you don't care for the time you don't care for the patient with but but but it's what you say we we must in the bad behavior there is consequence no and in the very bad behavior there is consequence in the nature if you go to a snake right don't go to the snake and i give you a reward there is so many studies about there is actually yeah there is a in the force free community speaking about the snake thing they they were like oh we're gonna teach it force free and and and you basically are teaching the dog to avoid the snake you really are teaching the dog to avoid the snake

but really but the dog never understands yeah yeah that the snake is a dangerous thing because that's how you're how you're teaching you're just saying stay away but you're not really saying why you stay away and but it's it's not it really we we we don't force our dogs you know we we just try to give consequence positive and we want to make a clear message so when you have a proper education the dog is always in the positive right but even like you know we do when i have the school and i have them come here and we do some games we play a lot of crazy games and it's a lot of fun we actually sometimes put electric colors like they they would have electric colors on their on their hands on their legs and on the neck okay i mean crazy crazy but when you know and you would think oh they will be all afraid to walk into this room because of this really bad experiences but but where i was going with this is even with kids and even when you are teaching anything being kids being animals like if you walk in here and we put a blindfold so you you cannot see and we ask you to find something to go to something and touch whatever right if we only wait for you to the right move so we can say this is good or we can tell you that this is good and we can also tell you that this is not good yeah every person that really wants to accomplish the goal will choose the two options because telling you that this is the right way and telling this is the wrong way is the most efficient way to to function in in anything and so even even in teaching things there is a lot of times you can help the dog by not only saying and not only doing the right the the positive reinforcement but also helping by saying this is you're doing the wrong thing this is the right way yeah and then they are yeah but we are we are playing on causalities you know we are we are we you the the problem is that you think that there must be no negative causality what you do no if if you work well i pay you well if you don't work consequences yeah yeah yeah you create consequence right you know so we want the dog only to be without consequence and only in the positive way but it's so unnatural exactly my point you know exactly my point and again i really have to insist that we we we love dogs and we are we we are we know they are very very nice and very other table animals you know right they are not going to have that kind of situation of course this some some people stupid but we'll never we never see that in in our sport not even by far because if you

are in that situation you don't even pass our social test if i see no we we if you go to a social test if any or my colleagues see in a social test a dog that is afraid that is trying to escape and then then he fails he don't yeah he don't even come that's exactly right you know so this this this is like this sad really sad situation no that that we are facing now and the the thing is that the the logic you know and even imagine like we are having so much knowledge you know in in in many science not in the in psychology we are learning a lot and you and and you know this these brain scans that are giving so much information we must do reverse psychology now no we must jump from the knowledge we have from humans we must jump and simplify and put it that in knowledge to dogs but we are learning so much about what kind of things are important no right and how harmful can be the the chronical stress no and but the chronical stress can come from that this fusion of adaptation no we don't you don't face the dog to to problems and teach them how to solve is this resilience no it's becoming so white nose well known no but then we are not working on that in our dogs no and and you see i always give a clear difference between education and sport education to create that education maybe you have to order no don't don't chase the cat don't don't harm your neighbor don't control yourself don't destroy the clothes of the nice right right right right right you know this kind of this kind of thing is education that can be consequence no like when you teach your son no it's but this you do with all your love with all the respect with all your care because you want to to really take care of your children or your dog and but also you want to respect your neighbor right no no and and actually in the the big picture it is very beneficial it's really it's impossible without it's impossible without that that's really what we what we have accomplished the possibility of making a dog so social in such a difficult environment no we were talking you know like the wonderful place you have here is uh yeah but uh we have our dogs living in the town you know myself yeah yeah yeah just live in the town and and they they must respect the neighbors and we must walk them by the street they have to cross with dogs that are very and totally out of control threatening to our dogs barking to them no imagine you go for in the street and you come to a place that you don't know and people is yelling at you and i kill you i kill you and we have these dogs that they don't

care they go by our side the dog is just barking and we have such a very educated dog that they are they don't care and they they are able to jump that natural behavior because we tell them so you know it's that we have to be a very good dog that we have to be a very good dog and we have to be a very good dog and having such a powerful animal no because what this kind of positive idea what we sterilize the dog we put them in medicine and we only having all the time starving and you just i give you food when you do right and you only eat when you do this you know because then you have to go very extreme because you only have one tool right right right right right so you so that's really loving your dog you know it's it's it's really when when we do our training uh it's we try to grow our dogs we we want to make them stronger we create education we make them we we make we stimulate the drives we want them to love the food we love make them to love our interplay we make them love to play with the ball and the toy and keep on being able to throw something and give it back to you and so it comes such a high intensive of probably we have the the money to study to see such a high arousal of endorphins in the dog when they create this no but it's something that is not that is something that we must work no it's like when we do a sport at the beginning oh it's so difficult so tiring so so that but then when once you understand and overcome then you love it that's life and we want to take our dogs the life out of that and right and also only do certain type of dogs that are for freeze but i just look at them and don't look at them and that's so that's enough for the dogs so what these people don't tell you is that what they are they are working is in this social threshold that the what means a correction for the dog is not the same for the same for different dogs and we have this selection program so amazing that that we want we need dogs that can be very strong so when you give a correction and they overcome the correction there is no problem for them that is in our program because we create dogs that are so resilient right and that's the utility but that's so beneficial for the dogs so it's super important yeah you then you go you go to a ship you go and you take your dog and they learn the situation and he overcomes you go to the plane you put your dog in the in the bodega they come out and he's normal he's right you know because he's such a strong animal you know but that's what but if we only think that our dogs are weak and they

are going to be under stress and any correction is going to be harmful for all their life we you you know it's that that view of the dogs but we're not dogs i i am so positive towards the dog and i think they are super animals they remember we were talking about that no this analysis of like how the dog has evolved and we have in in rough number we have like 4 000 dogs for one wolf so the adaptation that the dog has done biologically has been very beneficial for them no it's this kind of biological point of view in the relationship with my dog no but i can have a dog that give me things but cost me things but you know the balance right but we have i have i can have dog that i give a lot of time effort and give me harm and so that's can be biologically has a name so uh not so nice but we can have dogs that we put the effort and give give us like the share but we have dogs and we believe in dogs that we put the effort and they give us more right when when when that momentum when that comes it exactly but how many but you find that in not so many dogs in your life right you know but where the beauty and what this really make us really fall in love with that when you have that feeling when you have a feeling that the dog is giving you more than you have put right right right yeah but this is where they i mean it's so complicated actually yes it's really really complicated because like i tell like there they are and and hopefully there are not that many trainers like this but there are trainers that they they will see some beautiful performance and they're like oh this has to be done all by force ah because they that's all that that's because they don't believe in dogs instantly they think that because they don't believe in dogs they don't you know they they they have a picture they don't think that the dog can do that by free will right they they don't believe in dogs right but we are again we are super positive towards dogs in our interpretation what a good dog can get so in our sport is what really make it so special and so interest no and in the in the actually the the moment we are doing now no the effort in the judging yeah in the training and you know it's really really a beautiful moment if we really believe in what we are doing in some time we we have super nice dogs but we are going to improve them but we have to be careful of not giving the false idea that everything is what in english would say rainbows and unicorns you know yeah but this imagine you you see yeah now i see a lot of the super bowl

no super right you know and how how alive is these people how right intense is these people how is because he's somebody pointing to them with a gun right and they are putting their life on this you know and you so if you believe in your capabilities and you overcome situation is when you feel really feel alive no of course no when you you ah i want to we were talking also i want to run a marathon but what does it mean try you know i want to do igp it's tougher than running a marathon i always say we do resistant competitions as parallel to our sports my wife and i and i always say this is easy we do igp it's much more difficult you are you are able to do that that long scene yeah well that's easy i why do igp so yeah yeah it's and another like i mean listen right now we have i mean you saw the kennels you saw how many dogs there are and we can have a conversation and you don't hear them going crazy and you know and it's not that they all have electric colors on they just know that you don't just start barking to go crazy yeah but i remember this i we were talking a little bit like that no um you you're the mindset in your dogs the attention in your dog and the you know the their psychological necessities are covered right they don't live like in the lockdown right they are not born to death so a butterfly is comes or a the neighbor is coming and then you need to bark because it's the only fun part you do in all your day it's like we were when we were in the lockdown a lot of couples break why because you have to really live very close and you see oh you put this shoes here and you and another shoes there right right everybody gets irritated very yeah very active life with that kind of things doesn't matter that that irritation is gone because our mindset you know you we is totally different no it's easier so our your dogs have their yeah of course we tie the same with our dogs they have their physical needs the needs are met yes the social needs are met and their psychological needs are met you know but to have a good quality life with the dog doesn't mean that he has to be in the coach and give a walk and back to the coach and and eat whatever he he wants for free and no effort to win things that's that's the perfect life you want that for yourself right you know you are you are you are a clear example of you are challenging yourself all the time the schedule is crazy and you and and that's but that's a and then you you are a healthy life or you are really having a a very complete life you feel realizing

what you do or you will feel more realized just being seated in a coach and then if i am positive to my dogs i want them to be happy right i want to be healthy and i want to have more noise no no no no no to my son no don't study oh don't make why are you going to study all night because you have an exam don't have for yourself don't do no that that's that's a good parenting exactly yeah then i your dog just walk and go back and and stay this in natural situation no when you when you know like you you interview a very interesting guy about wolves oh yeah david match yeah it's really i was very very interesting a conversation actually no this kind of it was very interesting but for me he said something really interesting no we are so worried now that the dog are reactive towards another dog but in the nature a dog when they don't tell you no they are nice you know if they have strong and strange wolf comes and another male come what they try they try to really chase him or kill him because there is going to be such a high competition if they don't do that yeah they will die because they they need such a big areas for hunting the little packs no the numbers were amazing no so we now we expect the dogs to live in a city yes because they like to live with other dogs but the real nature of the dog is not that right the nature of the dog is yes i have my they have my family and they actually we have in our in our facility we have like a public uh park and it's always full of problems because the people at the beginning they're like can you don't work yeah the people and it's really sad because at the end the the the people that stay on the park is the uneducated people that they don't care the dog make harm to another dogs right you know it's i always tell them no imagine you have a dog you have your son no yeah and you go to a park and then come 20 kids to your son and they start threatening them no but don't worry it's just plain no no my my kid is having fear is some fear so please call your children and control your children so they don't make my kid be afraid no because we know that kind of feeling that is really harmful once that's so fast right that's why they this the the negative goes so fast because we have this really intensive adaptation so the fear is to learn it so fast but then if we want that from the dogs no they are in the park so what happens at the end the people that is uneducated and they don't care less stay in the park and the educated people go right no no that's exactly what it is you know

that's how it goes yeah but this you know it's and then and this is my no it's not no no but call your dog control your dog because we are in the society but control your children don't don't step on the neck of my son even now he's playing no no your your son is playing but my son is having troubles right right right so you know and we have this now this uh this naive view of the dogs but what when when you have a real dog and they and the the nature the the real nature is that they are they are doing something natural yeah i mean that's i think it's with with every i mean with every living thing it's like it's just normal at least on earth that's how we are programmed the amazing thing and and what we really believe is in the education we can have that but if we educate our son our kid they can go to the park the other kids are going to respect our kid and and my kid is going to respect the others right you know and that's the beauty of what we are able to do with a dog that we can educate them you know but that kind of education if we have to make a clear and and logic analysis of the dog we are training in that moment some dogs need nothing but love and no correction and some dogs need consequence you know it's like even for sure even like in for us in humans no i have four sons and then my girls were so easy and then one of my my my medium son was a little bit more difficult and and the other is different totally different personality but i cannot do the same education for for all of them and that right there is the big problem with with where we are with the different camps of dog training it's like well i don't need to do this with my dog yeah but but of course but good for you yeah yeah yeah that you don't need to yeah yeah of course but but if you don't need it you do it ivan right no no of course no exactly but you what what you what what is based your education and your training in the analysis of the of your dog you don't you don't use a system right you don't use a system you create a social structure you create drives you create knowledge that from that knowledge you create habits from that habit becomes the education yeah and then we have our sport in our sport we have mandatory that we have to be positive in the teaching you know in in in like here is a very big thing at the moment it's been like this for for quite a few years now the the positive only trainer and the whole they will put so many scientific studies behind about yeah the dog should not have but again that kind of studies has bias no no 100 they are not

uh yeah they are not real scientific correct that's the tradition let's okay i have a dog that has killed seven dogs and now to that dog we are going to do pure positive yeah okay show show me of course no no i have this dog that is very sensible we do pure positive but you do the same yeah you know it's it's uh it's uh but it's the like we have a lot of things about fear free this is a thing now here in the states it's like the yeah but positive movement is like everything has to be fear free of course but you you you when you train your dogs are fear do they have fear but i will tell you something and and see what you think like i i know that dogs just like us we like a little element of unsureness a little element like you will have a dog that is walking and it sees something a stick or a plastic bag and they go like oh i don't know about this bag yeah but then just as they are a little bit unsure they're also very intrigued and they they're like but they don't leave it they want to explore it they want to challenge and they want to be like oh i'm gonna touch it i'm gonna you know so but even for a healthy person you know active and full you know we'll see let's do reverse psychology uh-huh a healthy person that is really powerful and capable and and you you is fearless no no but you it's healthy you know if you are fearless then you have really big problems in your life you don't survive you don't you you can't survive if you are not afraid of anything of course so but even when you are afraid there is a there is a some good things about and and you know you want to explore it you know like you want to yeah like actually any sport any sport is something like this mental test no they very cleverly the in the nordic countries they do some mental test like like as analysis no and they really want to measure when the dog has the surprise how he overcome the problems right they don't want to see just dog that have no problem right that can that can be unhealthy no if you are fearless that's unhealthy if you don't have you are not afraid from the heights then you can kill yourself if you are not afraid from you know from spiders it's something even that is very engraved in our in our brain no if you are not afraid of snakes then you you can you will you are prone to survive actually for sure you know so yeah to to be a dog that is totally fearless is is is adaptive and is you know in and and we we we are it's even something we don't even rule because it's really deep in our great type of genetic oh it's in the in our brain yeah our system our encephalum really

right put the the bright lines and and sometimes you feel some threat and some danger before your brain your cortex your prefrontal brain knows looks like some kind of uh pre-knowledge actually no they they are like playing how is possible we know in advance that even some fraction of a seconds in advance they are starting making very clever studies in humans no but that said now i think now is is the moment in in the studies of the psychology we do reverse psychology but we must know what we can apply in dogs or not but like in our training we do induction training we do this this kind of shaping um you we we do so many complex uh system of of training but to what what is and and this kind of people force free we totally agree in your teaching system you don't use force right in your teaching system you make positive explanation once you have the explanation then because we cannot make the reverse we cannot make our dog teach something wrong think something by pressure and then tell them that he's happy that is nice no imagine you you you want like a very simple exercise plats no down and you say your dog down down down is uh for the dog has three meanings like most of the exercises have three meanings down is a submission but down is that i cannot run away i must be self-secure to do down but i i don't want to fight with you because you don't have to the right to make me down no the basic position have a meaning it's a logical meaning for the dog so you make seats can be a submission you make plats can be submission and you make uh yeah just suppose your neck and the belly and your sexual right sexual gonna dance for and then it's also an expression of vulnerable yeah okay yeah so i can get that answer from a dog from submission no or i can also when a dog make plats or down the dog must be very self-secure and the dog must really understand no so when when the dog do any exercise can show us like a social behavior that a dog can come for submission or can come for communication a dog can come sits for submission or can come for communication so and and he's going to express very easily that that they cannot fake feelings no the dogs are very honest you know i always say the dogs are very good people they are very honest they will never lie to you so if you put some some negative emotion you're he's going to transmit it so when when you ask a dog to sit or to plat you don't want to see social behavior you want to see a positive behavior and it's very clear to see for with the when you know dogs actually no and also when the

dog plats and stay he's self-secure because i cannot stay like here no we are relaxed and we we are seated we are comfortable we can even lay down because we are in a comfortable area but imagine you are in a dangerous area you want to be laid down and you go to a bus station right right right full of weird people you want to be laid down no you want to be just if you are able against the wall in a higher position to to be able to watch what is around so when we go and we do an exercise in a stadium full of people full of noise new place and you ask your dog plats and then you go is or you have a dog that is super self-secure or how you can do that you can do that for fear yeah no if you do for fear you will see you know so easily and so this kind of analysis of the that that's also very interesting knowing what we do we we call the dog and the dog must come very direct and come very close to you and look to your eyes if the dog is afraid of you you you see right away you know so yeah it's a this kind of interpretation of the of of what it really needs a dog or really means a dog is so prone no like in the studies they are using for that they study sometimes some sort of dogs that can do that kind of things not not not not really the whole spectrum of dogs it's the amazing beauty of what we have now in dogs no so but sometimes stress comes i'm just gonna kind of play a little bit on the other side of things to make it interesting the the the stress is a very adaptive behavior very natural behavior right but the the only thing that is really harmful is the chronical stress when it stays there it's when it doesn't have answer to it but during during learning just like you said with with your son if he if he has a test in two days and he wants to pass the test he's gonna study and he's gonna stress himself you don't need to be on top of him and saying like if he wants to he will put some stress on himself and i think uh in a in a lot of a lot of times no matter how you teach it doesn't matter if it's dog training or humans or anything even if they are learning something on their own they're learning something on their own there is a moment of exploration and uncertainty but the moment there is an answer then all that is very temporary that's just a stage that you go through yeah and you never have to it yeah but you never have to revisit that again you know like that that real life no like like like the relief and the the the enjoyment for accomplish right comes after that right exactly exactly no like

for us no like let's go to like the emotional parts and the what is exactly the same in dogs right actually no the emotional part no you you i i do i do swimming no no i was just gonna bring that example i was just gonna give that example so i'm listening i was uh i i i do swimming and i sometimes with my freaky friends and me we go into the sea before the the suns come out right that's one of the really beautiful things we do now there and and but of course when you go you we all have seen there is a little feeling shark uh yes this shark movie uh how is how you call it in english that that movie jows jows we we have all seen that movie so we are imagining that the white shark is going to come to to eat you know before you go really in the dark but once you overcome that you feel so alive right and you feel so happy and you feel so so accomplished you know right so we want to take that away from the dogs right yeah no exactly right really that's like yeah that's loving a dog yeah no you never you never fear no face and uncertainty or you know you never overcome nothing and everything for free that's super really right that's a this that's a full life you you know what when are our dogs super happy it's probably now we are we have dogs that are super super happy because they know they go tracking we have dogs that are super happy because they know they are going to do obedience sometimes they go by themselves to ask you hey daddy let's go right right and they are super happy when they do protection because we cannot fake emotions we can the dogs cannot fake feelings no if the dog is expression is expressing an emotion is because he's feeling the emotion right no we can be uh psychopaths and then we can fake an emotion but humans can do you know but very sick humans can do no is something i have something to tell you but in the dogs they cannot fake that emotions no when they are showing that they are happy it's because they are happy when they are showing that they are communicating with you is because they are communicating with you their brain is more base is more more emotional right more intensive and not so logical or cognitive no we play with the cognitive part in the dogs but we now in in our sport we play with the emotions no and the willingness you know and the drives but it's nothing really cognitive no so let me give you one i have one very interesting one for you so let's say somebody like teaching protection right and and you make the dog bark and you make the dog guard but you really

like you're in their face you and really like just creating it from from a lot of pressure and fear and the dog is doing it the dog is barking and it's guarding but he's not in the right like his his stress and his pressure yeah and he knows okay i have no choice i have to this is what i need to do so the ears are like this and the mouth the teeter it's really like a defensive like not not a comfortable place yep yeah when that happens during the foundation of the training and eventually if they do good job those helpers they make the dog overcome it right yeah but the body language from how the dog learned it stays there stays so forever right yeah but what is interesting is that not all dogs at that next stage they don't necessarily feel this way anymore but they're convinced that you want to see that picture of them looking this way you understand what i'm saying yeah so so yeah you can they're not necessarily afraid anymore because you you can't but they think oh i need to show this because imagine that happens even to the to the person no you're in my uh you you to you you you put the emotions that's uh classical conditioning actually you put the emotions associated to uh exactly behavior no so you are it is attached already like when people that smokes no and no and then you quit smoking and then you go for a coffee right and then you feel like smoking right so that that part of emotion are so deep in grain no but this is what we we are we really protect that to our dogs in our in our practice in our training for for your goals would you would you know uh world champion you know you you want that kind of dogs you keep that kind of dogs you cannot you cannot keep in that kind of dogs if you need to do that is because the dog is not going to be really for you yeah yeah you understand what i mean yeah yeah of course in some moment you put some like if you go for the training then you you try to overcome but you put some emotions but the the emotions in the overall overall balance are much much more positive than negative no no yeah that's true no what what i'm saying is that a dog can learn to yeah they to show themselves in a certain yeah to display certain okay i i need to no it's look like this in the in the analysis of the dog is one of the problems we even have in our sport no right that we are fixing our pain too much attention like it's we give a lot of importance no like that the tail of the dog exactly exactly because then the dog is showing that he's happy and with his tail up yes but then

you have a dog that is very focused and that has a very self-control and then he close himself a little right you know just like the kid learning a test right because then i am very focused is that that analysis we do very often in the tracking or you have the dog that selectively bred to have that tail that just will never go back yeah right yeah but i think the same it can get when we don't like you i mean we we just it's not like anything against food training or in but we just don't train with food but uh uh uh but uh but when you start sometimes a puppy with food and if the puppy is really young and you give him food they start to act in the same way how they would act to the mom yeah and what do they do with the mom they don't get give me food because mom will never yeah puke food they have to act submissive and give me food yeah so a puppy when you do some puppies not all puppies but some puppies you start them with the food and they immediately adopt that behavior how they would ask for food from mom yeah so they will stuck with this picture of i'm i'm kind of begging for food well it's a submission behavior right that creates a reflex in the mother right exactly when they exactly comes and leak and then they and so now the dog is already a year old or two years old and then they are not a child but somehow got the message that okay i or everything else but i also have to maintain that picture you you ingrain very much with the natural behavior right that's really the beauty that we are able to differentiate and then you see as a judge you see that that dog and the dog shows a little bit submission yeah but that submission comes from nature from the begging for the mom yeah but then we can then it's difficult to say well is the dog under pressure or is the dog behaving how it would behave with the mom you know yeah but the the logical judging when you don't have that clear idea you you cannot punish but you don't praise it actually we have like in our system of analysis of the in in our sport no like right right expression of really this deep analysis of the behavior you in that dog if it's correct and you don't see bigger problem but you it but it's technically correct but there is this kind of small thing you are meaning then i i i give you very good but i cannot give you excellent because excellent is the really correct expression in all the faces but impressive right you know but i don't punish i don't give you satisfactory or i don't fail you for that you understand but what i'm saying is like it's hard at some point with some dogs it's difficult to say

yeah but that's that dog was really he's just afraid or he's doing the right things that nature tells him to do yeah but uh that's why it's so impressive what we do now right right because we are playing even against as i said no you you can ask the dog seats and for the dog there is a meaning in the seats of plats there is a meaning of the plats but no we want to a dog that is able to overcome that natural behavior and govern that natural behavior through knowledge right and then no i'm going to ask you plats but there is no social or submission meaning in this yeah there like it's only communication and then you are i want you to be really knowledge that you have to really create this a concept this uh this learn uh that i have taught you but not because i you show me a submission but because you understood what i tell you and then you are willing to listen to the next command in the communication okay so you can have a platz we've seen that picture that show us very much social behavior in that plats right or you can see a platz that is really an expression of knowledge of dog and now we have that discretion in in our rules and we can analyze that you know and our rules want to see dogs that are not showing me social behavior but knowledge and self-control and communication right so but if i if if i see that this is a natural thing in the dog that's why our education as international judges is so interesting and we make very deep point and analysis on that kind of things you know and not punish what is natural on the dog but of course it's not bright exactly so we must price the brightness but we must respect the owner and the dog also in the training no yeah so if the dog is not with a super but then you don't give excellent but then comes somebody that is showing super correct and super happy and then we must keep that space for sure you have to yeah but it's very difficult so and then when you do that sometimes is what we were saying no you think people maybe don't understand right this that's where my next thing is that that is really our task no and that's why i also a good very good judge you hear but really i heard him from here that is he always say no that you are going to see in the long term that really super judge i know that kind of judge of course but really is influence and people this kind of people that is writing the rules yes and they he said for me super cleverly that you in the in the time you you are going to see what you judge you know if you you have the this kind of really important that just have this this bias and now it's

so impressive what we have right right you know it's uh you you see dogs that were world champion 20 years ago today they don't have even good correct so here is the next one for anybody that starts to train and and let's focus on the obedience part like what would be your advice to to trainers like what what where where are we going what do we what as a a judge and you're going to be judging fmbb again obedience in in few months in italy and like i have a feeling that a lot of trainers they they're training very hard but i don't think they understand what the judge really wants to see yeah like what do you what do you tell somebody that starts what would the judge today and from today on look for so somebody when they start training they're already conscious about what they want to accomplish instead of just making a dog you know like like uh with a clay you just make something you know we we always say like like this this kind of mechanical training or communication training and and really but in my point of view what what really what we we we are meant to see is the complexity the whole idea of the dog so the the important is that we have good emotions from that good emotions communication now so this is very important we we we keep hearing the in this this uh idea of teaching the the order is very important right yes as you were saying i don't use food of course we can use food in the teaching in some basics but very soon we start putting the dog in very much intense emotions right that are going to be associated with the response right so we put the emotion and the response and then we don't have the dog maybe with food that is easier to explain you go to the difficult then you it's like when you start riding a a bike or a car no if you go very slowly then it's easy no right right when you go very high and teach this is where this sport yeah yeah yeah it's meaning no yeah it's like in in our in in our analysis of the dog how the dog do it is as important or even more important of what he does okay so the next one is so we go the same direction like the the ultimate picture of course is all three together have the right emotion have the technical part no handler help but if you have as a trainer you have to sacrifice one between technical part and emotions yeah which one you would prefer to see no no it's on the rules it's it's described tell me first you when you have a dog that is in a happy

and nice behavior you excuse mistakes so emotion always will have priority communication respect and emotion is is over technique you show me a very correct dot that is completely empty that is yeah empty it's a good word actually then you okay you respect that but you you are going to search for the mistake you know if you see a dog that is just doing the things but then you value every mistake if you see a dog that is making making mistakes because he's so happy and so he's so willing to to please you and to communicate you with you then you see or you give less important to the mistakes right hey you know what i mean yeah yeah it's it's uh the now is like this this uh super interesting moment in our evolution no and of the training no that we we are so focusing respecting no the the dog but even we want the dog that has a very strong mind that can handle a very strong emotions and learning and and put it together you know in the happy way okay so it's really the if you have to save something always keep the the respect and the joyfulness in the obedience when but as said it is it doesn't mean that when you do everything positive and in the education doesn't mean that you don't have control and you cannot control your dog if you want to go chase like like like birds or something no right you you have to take care of that for sure i always say to to our our people no you you must do the sport with a very well educated dog and then you you you don't create the education in the training field no it's like you you when you send your sons to the school they don't they don't need they are they don't they must come educated from home no they don't right get the education in the school exactly very true or in the gym no if we are doing a sport one of the mistakes sometimes is that people want to create education in the training field right you cannot train you cannot create education in the training field very true this is the same thing with with kids when they go in public and they act like totally disrespect anything it's not yeah you see it in that's where you see it but it starts at home yeah but this is something that is happening in our society you know we all come i think uh you you have we all have a healthy life you know some problems sometimes problems or no problem but you know and and i i consider myself being a little bit crazy about dogs and all this kind of thing that can be understood by the sickness but i think it's a good sickness right but um we have education and we have to wait for ourselves and we have to overcome situations and we are fine

right right you know it's uh right like this culture of uh of effort and and really go over the situations and you know it's it's a little bit lost in in our kids and we are going that crazy direction in the dogs that no no no problem must be all right clouds and rainbows but we are not making when the kids start you imagine very simple long time ago how important was like it was a very very interesting study you know like in the immune system is the it learns it has his kind of knowledge and learning situation no so we have i think it was a study here done here in the states this worry from the mothers to have everything super clean the kids were not playing we are not touching everything super clean what happened super big problems in auto allergies and you know really really the problem yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you know and something and and then what is the modern recommendation from the really science go to the dirt make your kid right really touch dogs start in confront situation not put it in a cloud and no no no no the opposite make your your immune system strong but facing problems not but but taking away all the problems and and science has proved that but before science was proven totally the opposite no that all no don't touch anything that the kid wow everything is sterilized don't don't face of course you don't face to something super dangerous but it's so healthy and you don't have allergies you a lot of problems of really autoimmune system and allergies were created by us because the science told us to be in rainbows no yeah like we are doing now in this concept of education but it was totally the opposite no of course not this dream but even something like our immune system but we must be positive our dogs right we must right and it's our task to prepare them to solve situations positive and negative of course no we are not going to expose our dog to be killed by a car right or to be beaten by a snake or get part of or of course right you know so so it's it's that kind of situation that doesn't mean that when you are putting your kid playing in the mud or going to the beach and let him go and eat some sun we are very close to the beach and our sons go and and eat something we know but luckily our sons know they have no allergy they are very resistant to cold no you know they overcome the cold why because they do sport they are exposed and their immune system is strong we want to do that with the the nervous system of our dogs right right right right right right

just only put in the no ultra no problem at all don't face any possibility of problem so you become so weak that but it's so unlogical no and it's so disrespectful to your dog no right it's as i said no we were talking for me when the really beautiful thing we do when we train a dog if we create a theory of mind no so i i create this theory of mind that is something very human not not so many animals can do that you know that but we can put ourselves in the mind of a dog really try to understand yeah and then i can think my dog is really really weak really dog that is going to be broken so easily or i can think really positive to my dog it doesn't mean that it excuse me to mistreat my dog but really tells me that that i can i have to grow my dog yeah yeah yeah yeah face him to situations to grow my dog as you were saying the protection you can you you grow your dog you go right you will start teaching tracking and then we start very easily and then from easy we start taking the food away and from the food away then we start doing much more difficult terrain and then we grow our dogs in in that you know what i mean that's what is interesting because otherwise it will not even be interesting anymore right so and then we we know our dogs that how much joy can have in that no in that situation and then when you have this kind of dogs then you have a dog that can go as we were saying to a an earthquake and and take your dog out of the helicopter go with the with the team with the military or with the police yeah put the dog in the floor and say so and say try to save your life yeah if we don't have that kind of selection and animals that can overcome these situations no so they you don't you will never be able to have a dog that come like in labradors or not why you use labradors because they they even maybe the blind person is making a mistake and step on the dog if you don't have a dog that overcome the situation you destroy the training right it's over yeah yeah yeah so why we use this kind of special dogs because they are going to keep the training even through the mistakes because they are resilient so as a judge and you've judged plenty of high level dogs and you also see dogs that want to be the high level dogs but they are not not what would be an advice for a dog trainer that has a dog that it's not it's not just it's not genetically in that excellent category absolutely i think it's the same advice you would say is respect your dog but it's good to hear for people because actually a lot of trainers that that's a actually

this this is like epigenetic you know so we must have the quality and the training we have right we must put the both things together there is no one or another right no so if the dog don't have it just respect him right so but this will be like in the mother in the mother training and in our mother situation you you cannot do you cannot do it you don't put it right so in in an extreme situation this is probably clear for everybody but let's say you have let's say i have that dog that i'm like man i want my dog to sit like this one i want him to down like this one i want him to come as fast as like this one and i know that i can force him or i can use his natural abilities yeah but the which one is more important to see today is there is no doubt about that you know because if the dog don't show us and don't have the proper training then you cannot get if you put the pressure the dog is is going to show right and at that point then you don't if we have two identical dogs and the one dog sits very fast on his own as fast as he wants to as fast as he can yeah versus the other dog that is made to sit really fast because that's that's that's a really that that's the really um task of the in the judging right occasion actually it's uh it's one of the difficult really make the analysis no to to when you don't have a clear idea you must be always in favor of the of the dog the more free dog or yeah but i mean if you don't have a real clear picture you cannot right right but um i think now we are in this moment that you know um in the processing of the information when the dog hear the commands and make a reaction to to that command through a muscle response yeah or you can make a avoidance or escaping yeah respond that yeah and looks and can be very fast but always there is going to be an expression of emotion a moment you know so that's uh something is in the concept of evaluation that we don't price the super fast there is no in our rules there is no seconds right we don't describe seconds you know so you have a dog that goes super fast fast it's not going to have dog that is heavy you have a root violet but he really wants to go to you yeah you know yes or you have a dog that is super fast but he's a little bit in a panic he's worried and then in in in our interpretation we must value that no it is there is no seconds no so if the dog is you have a heavy road pilot but he's willing to go but yes he can in his possible speed the super fast malinois is not going to have more points right well that's how that's the the reason i'm saying this is because i know

a lot of especially igp people will be listening and people that are not so in a high level and want to want to get there and a lot of times they push the dogs yeah but that's in their own way you know it's not understanding that that's gonna pay a price later that's in like in the sport no right put yourself too much you want to really hey you win that seconds and then what happens and injury right no so yeah no that's so yeah it's the interesting part we are doing training actually no we are preparing and then the clever training is the training that really respect your dog as you said you respect your dog and you have the dog for long term right no because this is so difficult sport that i want to try to have my dogs working with three years or four years five and six if i am able seven and some dogs that are really reference to us maybe work with seven and eight or nine no you know it's like the the things i always be i i always we you know when we talk about genetic i am a little bit freaky about pedigrees and and i check all those kind of things i like to see the age the dogs get that results that super results you know and i really respect and i really like this training and dogs that in their career they've been able to improve in the long term further right no so that's that's for me the interesting training no and they the interesting approach of the training you see sometimes dogs that are superstar and then they decline no they have a very good result in some moment and then they go down but for me like you know that that's really like in training or what you want the style you keep in the style of training you want to achieve for me the the goal would be to create that so i can have fun with my dog you know what comes to mind is the uh at the malinois nationals um trish harper she had the dog that was uh injured but she was just using it as a demo how many times she did dumbbell and that dumbbell was just every time brilliant i am super fan of that right from tisha also yeah it's really super that that's what's about yeah yeah and you can you can make it through pressure no no but eventually you know it breaks you know there is there is a moment when we say but the this this theory of flow right no right right right the enjoyment in the doing not for the sake of yeah it's like please let me do another double you know it's like you know this kind of philosophy even this this kind of theory or yes of it's very much ingrained that this one of the biggest happiness is when we come into the flow right you know and that coming into the flow

in some very skillful very difficult task and it's very well studied that is one of the really happiest moments in the life that they have made that very clear yes with the men a scanners like in this this this buddhist people or you know that when you are very skillful and doing something very difficult that you understand then you and you really have a lot of joy right when you learn how to to broom or to clean a plate that you you learn it very easily and but that doesn't bring you joy but when you are able to solve a complex mathematical problem then you are super happy and a lot of times it's not even you see that kind of training that get the dogs in that level right that the dog do it not because of the reward just they do it because of the flow of the movement yeah yeah yeah and then for me it's one of the goals we have to to try to achieve in the dogs and that that example you were telling was totally trying yeah you see that it was a dog like in the white dog three times or something like that yes and all the time was every time yes you just like you cannot tell him to do it slow but sometimes it's not even the training well it is a training because you can you can it up with bad training but but it's what we we were saying no that sometimes in our structure of teaching to get that flow you will never get it through pressure right but that dog is super strong dog this dog by example is very really really strong dog if that dog don't have rules he would be dead because it was such a strong dog but when he had normal rules and then you put the training and you put the education and then you have the dog with seven or eight or nine years and do that exercise and do again and again and again and again and no reward try the dog was super happy just for the sake of doing it right such a complex exercise anybody that works dumbbell work know what we mean right right so yeah it's uh this is uh this is for me like you were saying no like what what advice would you give no but of course our our program is so clear on that no we are searching for that beauty actually no for dogs because in the competition you don't have the ball but you don't have the the color right right okay so the only thing you have is the is the relationship with your dog and that the dog is really enjoying what you do with him and even at the end we have that feelings i have that feeling with two dogs in my life my wife has that feeling also with a couple of dogs in your life you tell me how many dogs you have that right right you know with the with the dog you have that super results you

have that yeah you have that flow yes the the to do it not because i reward not because i punish no because i am with you and i am enjoying when we're doing and and that's so easy to see no when we when you are in the trial you are so close sometimes when that's one of the really luxury of of judging that you are there enjoying when you see that kind of situation you really is what you love to see no and we search for that i you remember i remember also very well in in the when in the mali championship in i was judging remember was raining so hard a lot of parts where i i i was yeah yeah yeah it was getting kind of was really a nightmare some parts were super full of water no no no no lack of of possibility of smell nothing just talk really willing to find and fighting to fight and i had really my memory a couple of dogs that were this kind of train situation you see i know exactly and i remember i you were like i was yes yes yes it's like no no i'm i'm finding this i'm finishing this yeah yeah i remember one dog just was totally full of water and the dog was yeah one step again yeah what is the power it was really incredible but when you see that the dog was not doing that for rewarding the dog was not doing that for pressure right you know he was trying to find and trying to really accomplish his goal for the sake of it because it's right food right they are not searching like like the dogs that hunt they find the prey no there was no prey there's something that a guy left there in the water one hour something ago and then i go with my dog and he really struggled to find it for me you know and and we have that in our sport actually and and it's something is these people don't cannot see the beauty actually you know and and that's why we are how do you feel about the whining stuff they are they like the you know just the dogs being vocal like there's many reasons but i don't even want to talk i want to listen yeah what do you there is a lot of possibilities for that but it's um it's something for me that in the analysis show us like the self-control no the possibility you know we we see many dogs that are excited happily in the emotions but they cannot hold they cannot control themselves they cannot control the emotions so we are evolving so much before that was no problem yeah now we are in that evolution we would want to that we want the dog that is able to even control that positive emotion and put it into knowledge no and keep the right position so yeah of course you don't but i think it happens also from breeding from trying to select that

kind of super high intense dog yeah but and then that dog just cannot control no more himself because for me it's are two different things you know the drives and the self-control no in the modern psychology is considered self-control like a muscle you can build that muscle but there is a lot of genetic in that muscle we have seen when we talk about the breeding no we have seen that muscle in the in the the old ring the old lines yes yes the dogs that you were making noise inside them and the dog is yeah totally cool stable not not even just in the expectancy of a ball in obedience no with a helper just totally and you have the dog totally close to you come completely calm self-control and then you open and the dog goes yep yeah and that's really i that's my my interpretation is very genetic so for me it's very appropriate we evaluate we evaluate value that not vanish of course but we make a clear evaluation that dog that can have that intense motivation but control right you know so yeah it's so how easy you think it is but now to make the difference between the one that's super excited and is very unpatient and the one that it's also impatient but it's because of stress that i must do it very fast and but then the body language of the of the dog can give you a clear clue about that you know for sure right you know you see you you know it's right and and and it's is not of course not easy to see but it's that it's it's it's fair you you can sometimes you can you can analyze you can analyze make an analysis seat and and be fair no you know really the task and our must is to be fair to the competitor and to the dog no but unfortunately a lot of judges give you know even though they see that there is a you know some some unresolved pressure but yeah but they they encourage the speed that that is that is also one of the beauties in our sport if you have that speed that that kind of speed maybe you have you're going to have that kind of way of solving the situation and the drive and the conflicts in the tracking you know with when you find the difficulties and then that kind of dog maybe can give an impression in the obedience but it's going to give another impression in tracking and another maybe probably totally different impression in protection no that's the really you know this right the the nice thing about this sport no that we we balance you know but that's where it's the and now you see in the in in the effort like the in the competition they they try to to have

that that no you know not only one interpretation we have three interpretations right but this is where the the beauty i think of and this is not possible i know this is very hard but the beauty of one judge judging the tracking obedience and protection gives that judge the total picture of the training and the dog where when you judge just one face you can you can get fooled yeah but um that that's when that that's that that's good conversation yeah that that protects the the the dog and the handler if i have an interpretation and i have i'm fixed in one idea and i evaluate you in the three phases that too sure then it is is really you can already narrow but if i have three different or you know three different judges that has so that they are going to make it the analysis of of the dog then if i make some sort of bias or you know can balance because we we are not measuring speed we are not measuring meters we are measuring emotions and intentions no and technique you know right we are so there is uh you know a part of interpretation that is important we can back up with our knowledge and our explanation no so i i tell you this because i see this because i see this not because i think i i don't know i try to really i i try to be very fair no i'm very serious for sure and there's a lot of thinking involved yeah for sure but if if you if you you put it only in one mind for if we say then it's come but if we put it in three minds or three right nation three different points of view then we can balance no and i'm for sure when this but you like let's say i wanna i want to really know about a dog yeah but i want to see him in all places of course and it's one of the luxury i said right when you're a when you are judging or when you're a helper you when yeah one of when you are a good helper no yes and you're in a competition i really envy them when i see them right right because they are feeling the dogs you know exactly what's happening you know so yeah yeah it's but uh is is one of the things we like when you are there is because you like dogs you are really and you want you you don't want to give points you want to see beauty right right you know and and even when when you have a helper what a helper wants to see is that dog that is really holding him dominating him not not really a dog that runs away from him no he you you want to see really what is impressive or what is beauty but and and i think is is fair when you have this clear different clear picture but different different views so if there is any any mistake we have three

interpretations yeah and as you said no when dogs are very honest and so they are they are going to show you what is happening yes so in tracking you you can see what is happening in obedience you can see what is happening and our sport is so complex and we search for this kind of even situation a little bit contradictory you know you can have a super dog in tracking but there is not so good in obedience and maybe not so strong in protection than you have yeah normally the one that's really really good in obedience it's not so good in protection i must disagree really when you have the right the right you you you you you we have examples of that yes that you have a really strong dog that can have a very nice obedience but it's much more difficult no that that can happen but that dog that has really nice obedience may not have that protection that's what i'm saying yeah the other way yes but yeah but then you you you he will not discuss so well in protection right so in at the overall results is unbalanced right right you know for for me what is very interesting in our sport is when you have a dog that is calm and intensive and self-secure in tracking and then is very active and very attentive to you and willing to please you in obedience and really strong and dominant in protection strong and strong and dominant not just kind of sporty protection yeah yeah but that you know it's like uh when you when you have like a person that is like good police or you know it's not can be very dominant but uh don't need to show aggression right that's what we we want this balance no the reason i'm saying this is because i think with the how we are making protection now the stick is gone and like we're really not starting not to test protection and we can have we we can get to the point that we can have dogs that can do really amazing obedience and don't have enough but that that's that's the the thing this this the nice thing in our sport sometimes we change you know and sometimes you can complain but because we are changing but we are open to changes and we we must this concern that you have i also i totally agree yeah and i have that that concern but we must try to find a way to check those possibilities you know you know so you know there is some we can open our eyes and see how we can do it you know how can we create something but i think i i see that impossible yeah but you because when you hit the dog you know how can we create something that you can do it you know how can we create something

and when i hit the dog it doesn't mean that you make the pain as we said no no but you just make him make him say oh you want to fight me yeah but now it's very interesting to see how the dog listens imagine you you are just uh concentrated and you have to listen but you hit yourself and we right i get something right and then in a second you must be again exactly right right exactly but also we are protecting our dogs because i threat you i i give that's the the pity of this we were we have not being skillful enough to be able to explain this if i hit the dog and he doesn't run away is because he's not he's not afraid right the dog is not afraid right and has to listen to me directly exactly and i am 50 meters away yes and i only have one chance yes imagine in that situation you are in a fight with somebody and and your right friend tell you hey stop and that's a very able to stop i am able to control myself in that situation and then able to overcome a threat is because you are not afraid right and you are even able to think after that stress that's really intensive what we ask a dog to do even if you put yourself in that situation you would you you yourself would have a lot of right to control yourself right so as we said for me the challenge now is to have very strong dogs with very strong mind that can handle that situation because with stability but this is something we never had i think because we have we want to have a dog that is super social uh stay with another dogs but at the same time it has really super drive but at the same time that drives he's able to put it into cognition right you know so that but is the challenge we have now a big you have a big challenge yeah yeah as a judge as you have a big like nobody you have that challenge as trainer and as breeder we are just like as a breeder i i don't think i have the challenge because i can i can evaluate that though i don't need the competition to evaluate the dog right but but how many you know you know people need that backup actually to get that information which was was supposed to be part of the goals of what we do right yeah but of course when you have you saw my pedigrees on the phone yeah yeah no but like i i'll give you maybe it's not quite a good example but i let me try like you have the show german shepherd lines i had one and you run around in the ring and the reason you run around in the ring and the reason you stuck them is for the judge to look at their movement and look at their structure and guess and predict if they are

capable of doing something instead of actually testing them to can they do it or no we just kind of look at them and say oh look at this movement that means he he can do well that does not mean that he can do why don't we find out if he can do well because and the same with the protection now when we don't have the stick hits yeah we can make some crazy motions like it can become like the wrestlemania like i i hit you right it's like and you fell down but we are not we we last year we lost that ability to really test the dog have no i think not not really test but we have we are going to miss one part of of the analysis you know for me what i evaluate what i think was interesting is that we create this is this this stress no so exactly my point yes you you so we check in our program we check the the stress for the threat right dog even the helper is trying to make him afraid right and the dog respond with dominance and hold him so the dog is overcoming that threat showing us that he is he has no exactly first so if you make a training based on fear will the wrong the dog can run away okay so if they're really the helper in that situation strange environment you you cannot do by fear right it's impossible or the dog habit inside or it's impossible and so we check we analyze that the dog is able to overcome that physical psychological threat but we don't test like the resistance to to annoyment right like imagine like to like to pain but in there when we have a utility dog we want dogs that even imagine you have your dog coming to a disaster area then the dog falls because there there is a lot of stones or you know uncomfortable place or and on and then he you know he has to overcome some kind of problem and we want the dog that is able to to overcome that right we now we have taken that out of the analysis we cannot see the physical resistance no yeah you know that that kind of sensibility you like in humans you i pinch you some people will say oh you you hurt me and that sign that same situation maybe to you i say exactly there is a mosquito you touch me you know so like the way in the in the analysis of of our dogs unfortunately we have not been able to to really explain and keep that and really actually but for because for me it was just a problem of the the physical uh the physical uh uh stick we were using that was very noisy but not really making you know maybe it was enough to get the blood pressure up yeah yeah to skip a little heartbeat yeah yeah and no you remember if we are not talking about the old days that were we were

using oh my god yes i know i know and then you break the bamboo stick yeah and the dog walks with the with the blisters on their side but again we we are not talking but about that we don't we don't need that for the we don't need that for sure we don't need that but we we can test the the resilience to the physical distress and that that distress don't block the mind of the dog right that distress don't make the dog run away but that distress don't block the mind of the dog and he's able after that distress he's able to listen to me yeah to listen to us even in the in a super huge distance and the dog is alone so we are showing such a strong animal that he's able to overcome in the long attack in the field is it's very nice to see because can be but what is impressive is that the dog listens to you at once exactly and you know in our in our rules maybe people some people that that listen to us maybe they don't know but you you cannot give more than two extra commands right as long as you give two extra commands and the dog don't listen to you you you you know you are disqualified no you lose point no no you are disqualified as as soon as you lose the control the possibility to listen you're disqualified right and we we're going to lose a little bit that that that checking no i don't think it's going to be a super big disaster but we are not checking that i think it is a big disaster but i tell you why not but i know for the sport david i don't think for the sport but like if we if we are no no no it's we are now we are not talking about this for the sport okay we are because if we would select dogs we are selecting dogs right and be utility dogs exactly so in the utility dog what we check in that situation is a dog that is overcoming yes physical distress yes yes super important so and the the he's overcoming as physical distress and still have the balance that don't have this overcome of emotions that don't let the dog listens to you right what happens right of the doctor are very strong you have very strong dog come the heating and then the dog gets angry and then game over yes game over yeah that's super interesting being for being because it's too angry or being because it's unsure yeah the game over right yeah some you can have both and that's actually oh the dog really gets angry strong but that that sometimes happens not even needing the the helper no you have a dog that goes very fast to the helper and and the the dog is not skillful enough to read the movements of the helper and catch it but he make right a bit impact i tell you

like from and then the dog from that knows that's the most common situation actually even more than the blocking just for the for the stick heat but you know that that kind of of analysis of the of the possibility of listening to you in that situation now it's missed but it's the the nice thing it's like we were talking before about how many things we were considering in learning or even like immune system yeah let's go very simple and then before we have this i concept of what means the what was good for our immune system and how we can improve our possibility to overcome uh you know how could be and all this kind of situation now we have totally different different knowledge and an approach so in in now sport it's open now is you know that they are working in a new con in a new concept of and and it's open it's open to for anybody to give their opinion through your kennel club you give your opinion you i would say that that idea interesting to your your delegate and that delegate come to the fci commission and they that ideas can be discussed and and they are democratic they are both that was the the because then that not that they are new rules but they were the new proposition i was there yeah that's right i was i was i had like a very i was there i was just one year delegate i was just there in that the big decisions in that voting no okay we have this idea of putting a jump with this balance part so yes yes and then they come uh they come with this idea it was already written yes and say hey we have made an analysis and this could be risky for the dogs because some dogs can come into that balance part and make and be that can be harmful for them so what do you think should we keep it or should we and was all the delegates that were in that position we keep it we don't we keep it we don't it was totally you know democratic yeah and not not not not only from any any any delegate that was there has the voice and he was representing the people from the country and this their ideas you know so i think is we have this situation now but we we we we we have to to to adapt now thank you we have to adapt now and and save our sport but our like for my experience yeah right right what i saw was really democratic and open and open to suggestions no and to for improvement and we give an idea we give an idea we analyze okay it's okay it's not we okay and we vote and and it stay it's not just the idea of a few people just uh-huh but they want but i really in the intentions for for for what i witness actually was very democratic so maybe we have this situation but maybe if we come to a

moment that really the knowledge and the really we can give this kind of explanation i i know that you are making efforts to do studies where you show what this what this kind of education give this result this kind of education right right right this so when we make an analysis okay no no we must check the like the threat the avoidance threshold in the physical part not only in the psychological part in our the physical part in our dog so it comes it can come back you know yeah it's is a i guess for for like competitors at least i from with everybody that i have talked about with especially that thing with the stick i mean almost all the rules come kind of as a surprise to us as competitors even though well you know but that's i think that that can be also the nice thing in this situation we we must really struggle to to be to decide what we are uh-huh uh-huh what are we are we a sport okay let's do it right right we are not a proper sport very true what are we a selection system okay let's prove it yeah very true we know we are both things you know right and now i think we are in this moment to to really be clever and and show the amazing thing we are doing and how we are improving right our dogs we need healthy dogs when we go in obedience you know we we show that the dog is able to think to bring me something i throw him that he's able to jump a meter freely openly yes no harm no touching so the dog is super healthy for doing that you know what i mean no so we are checking those kind of things we cannot have a dog with very bad problems and doing that right no we cannot have a dog that is afraid from the stick because we make it everything by fear and overcome that and in that level of fear that is such a big emotion that is going to block the brain of the dog and be able to let tell the dog when he's 50 meters away from us say house and he do the same moment he do the transition we we evaluate imagine we we we don't see just the dog biting we see the dog how the dog opens how the dog make the grip and keep the resistance how he tries to stop or how he overcomes the threatening of the helper right when the when the helper stop we evaluate how the dog is feeling before the house is he willing to house he's he's stressed yeah so but we we make that analysis and then how the dog house that he has by fear exactly that he has and what does he do after and then how he change his mind and start making a dominance and from that situation how he is able to get himself under control by the helper by the hunter again so imagine

it's even for a person but that's why we do it because it's so complicated that's what makes it so fascinating right yeah and the same dog that is so that then you go to obedience i want to be an active a happy dog and very sensible to you and then you go to tracking and you see this dog that is intensive and and totally free you are with a 10 meter line right you are right hey what is the more scary no when you are competitor where are you more scared it's when you go tracking because you you can do nothing just follow your dog which that he finds the everything for you no so i mean i have to give credit to this last thing the the utility commission you know how they have an idea and they propose it and they send that this time normally it was always decided this is what happens but this time there was ideas and now they say hey what do you guys think that was a good thing but the that was before also was in the really in the rules for the 19 the 2019 before was this kind of discussion and what sometimes what's happening in that's if if the the delegates don't do their work that's a problem that you we cannot blame to when i'm not i'm not part i'm not defending no no no i'm not part there but no no i know what you're saying we must respect the you know the effort that right because all you know but the fci commission was is not to blame if the delegate for sure country didn't do his job for sure the possibility say me your ideas what you think yeah not crazy idea of course send me your ideas what would you change what you improve what you put what you take out you know but this time they did it they just let it out and everybody i didn't need to have my delegate to tell me i saw it yeah but and that was not a bad idea that must come through the delegates sure sure but because they they they got the idea that some delegates were not doing their job exactly that's my point you know because now now that we saw the proposals now we can put pressure on our delegates before that was not happening yeah but you know but but that that uh concept that that idea was already there right um so if it was ready like uh remember no probably yeah i know when i was talking with harry about this he he kind of he said the same thing but it just i tell you from being a competitor it gets so frustrating because and again it could be the utility commission could be my delegate or somebody's delegate but all of a sudden the people that the people that the rules really matter for the people that compete and train

it comes as a surprise and we're like man why why are we doing this you know of course we we we are i think no nobody's happy to for the decision of taking the the this this the sticks uh away my understanding was that there was no pressure by anybody to remove the stick it's a question to be proactive that's the problem i i can i can a little bit understand because the situation in in europe is so crazy but you cannot make them happy no no they will never be happy but but now i said we are in the moment that we must because we didn't do really our task before now we have to absorb the impact and then we can grow again yeah it's my i was i was i it is my uh my my point of view also so yeah because this what we do with our dogs is it deserves the effort it deserves to survive we are doing so much good to the dogs and i really you know it's like what what i can really know from my practice not from the right right right right right right because we are in our super amazing dogs my wife always say very very very very very logically and very right that even in our dogs the the dogs even the dog that we think is not so good not so nice would be the dog of the dream of many people very true oh yeah that's super true so and and we have this special that the special brightness and this special dogs that when when people don't know you you when you just see our program or our dogs you think this is normal but what what the the the the quality of the animals that we have the training that we have today the techniques that we are able i can assure you it's not normal you know if we see we are like in this level of understanding on the level of the quality and and we think that the drives the positiveness the the overcoming but we in our practice we see a lot of dogs that come and you try to give food as a reward and you cannot right and try to help them by like but encouraging them we we also one of one part of our work is to help dogs that in the shelter in the public shelter in malaga and then we make an analysis of the dog and we give the recommendation what kind of environment will be nice for the dog yeah what what how in this um analysis of what motivates the dog if we can motivate the dog by food and also he can we can motivate by hunting right with the ball yeah or play or how tough they are to the handling how secure are with different dogs and we make that analysis and give a recommendation for the possibility to talk to go to the right family and to the right yeah education we are we are doing this from 2007 uh consistently

this year and it's something we really love and it's very very sad that's very good but that's very sad because we we see i don't know how many dogs every year but it's this kind of things are the things that should be gone right future and i always say to to really know what we do is also culture no when you have your dogs the dogs from your breeding that have this level of selection and care and attention how many how many of your dogs finish in a shelter right very true yeah no no yeah you don't have them why because the culture that we put protect the animals right so if you want to protect really protect the animals what you have to do is of course see the situation but save the culture right now it's we have this problem no we were talking a little bit about no don't buy dog don't buy dog only but it's like if i tell you don't buy don't buy books don't buy music just go everything that is just thrown away that's one of the big problems we have in the culture now we only have things that are very easy to eat because it's right there is that you you can copy everything and you can and then we you you don't see when you want to really enjoy a movie or a complex you have to go to the old days because you and so it's the same culture in the dog no don't don't buy dogs only no no there is a place for dogs that to be to be rescued it's super nice but also we must keep the culture and we must keep our our respect to the dogs and if you want to save the dogs the is our moral obligation toward the dog to improve them to make them more adaptable to society and to have the possibility to be healthy to be when we use our you know our dogs cannot be sensible to the stomach because we go tracking and then they have to fight with the fire ants as you said me right you know so we we are doing so many things so and we are every time with better and better dogs now in the analysis of the sickness we make the genetical sickness so we are trying the dog are free from this free from that free for that we check hips we get elbows yes and then we also put the training so it's and then we are the the bad people it's really incredible as you said no like this study that people that we are doing these kind of things we are bad people right no it's really really sad that's the the the the the what we like the sport people around the world we cannot just feel that pressure and always try to please the animal rights activists yeah but because they will there is no end to it yeah but i said this but we can my my my my hope as you said my hope i

i i also optimist positive that's the people i am positive to two people i think at the end the knowledge and the the science and the the science and the logic will win sometimes now we are prone to that emotions are more important than logic no no what has to make it special the human being is that we are we can be logic even through after emotions no so now we have this society now that sometimes the people that make a lot of noise look like they are right but it's not true the people that are that have the knowledge and with the culture it should be the one that has it should be but we don't we never stand up to confront them we always seem to bend down but because we we we are busy right we don't have the time you know when you you you are super busy i am super busy and all the people that we are loving our dogs and breathing them and take and training them and and you're enjoying them we don't have the time to make noise but if you like if you write a book about dog training and you just present it as this fairy tale that pleases that ideology but it's not real dog training and even you yourself are not training this way you're confirming you're you're basically like even even with the like i have people from all over the world going through my class and most of them are coming to my class that are from europe because they cannot learn in europe yeah but anything that goes against the agenda of the yeah but that's an ideological agenda right not really something that we what we are supposed to be you know that is be technical and professionals and have the possibility of helping the dog and the people with a scientific approach and that's one of our weak weakness real weakness is that's what i'm saying that we are not a real profession you know we we we are so we know but it's becoming real profession like in germany for example right now yeah yeah they no no i i i am also one of our uh works is we we certify the professional trainers okay uh there is like six people in in in andalusia um um um my wife and i we are two of the six people okay that's interesting when you have you you you are professional you have more time you have you have you have the experience and then you come and i check your knowledge and then i tell you okay you have the knowledge knowledge and the and and the the possibility okay so i give you this credit it doesn't mean that you cannot work uh-huh all right right right in the long term that should be but of course it's imagine you you are a doctor and you can only use homeopathic approach right to the things right of course i would love only to be

homeopathic but sometimes i have cancer i have exactly exactly but what do i do no no only hands i know no no it's science so in spying maybe you're still fortunate in germany that's not the case in germany right now you have a test like you i i have the written test like you if you want to become a certified the government to allow you whatever part in germany you are there will be some veterinarian behaviors and there will be some positive reinforcement trainer yeah and you have to like you have no absolutely no choice but you have a a straightforward question would you use any type of correction ever or would you use only positive reinforcement and unless you check that you will only use positive reinforcement you will not be certified that that's not science but it's not science of course it's not but this is where things are really i mean yeah but it's only and when you have all this that that's new trainers that that's a political approach is right right right is if you're going to be police no and you have to control and and educate the people you cannot right you cannot you you cannot use your tools if you need of course but you must you might use it in the in the more clear way to never use it but see where the the little i mean it's such a smart way how they did it because now there is so many certified trainers in germany that have said we can train dogs only by positive reinforcement so if one trainer in germany right now says no no you cannot they will tell you you cannot but every trainer that is certified yeah it's what i was telling you know that as we are not a proper profession that has this backup knowledge that we really test that hypothesis and we put it in practice with different approach of people and analysis but it's already past that stage in europe but it can change is what i mean but with knowledge and with the time of course the time of course no it's something that now we have this situation but even because now in the education is is you know as i i read in some countries they were doing just this kind of education that they were not making tests to the kids and always everything by a screen or a computer and they are coming back to paper and also to doing exams because they have checked that they are were creating such a big problem in the kids so this is really one of the sad things like in our professional no in our profession is that we we are we don't have that backup of really our system to be in science analysis yeah for sure yeah so yeah we we tried this with this level of talks and we did this analysis no i have this dog with

this social behavior with this so in the specific behavior right this motivation with this level of intensity towards correction so we only do this but we didn't do that and then we have the result we do a medium side we did we do that so you a science you know it's yes it's something that we can really put it on science as profession no so now we are prone to some uh you know i i as i told you i was studying veterinary you know and it's like if i am a teacher a doctor is going to tell me how i have to educate my kid you know yeah because why because the but how do you is the only one that have the backup of science and sometimes right right it's not the right science you know a a doctor in veterinary must be a doctor not that's a psychologist right not uh a trainer or a sport trainer or you know it's like if you want to teach your kid you don't go to the doctor no i um you know it's it's something like we're on the same page but how do you reverse that when it has gone so far yeah yeah now now it's how now because if you try to say this you're going you're criminal you're going to jail in some countries you are going to jail yeah yeah no no in some countries you so how we know that situation that i said i i cannot use that kind of tools yes so i have to to to really extend much longer right the training for the normal people and and start insisting them that we have to start even sooner with the dogs and you need much much more time and you sometimes to to really create the correction that says that the stupidness from these people you you don't need the e-cola to correct the dog right right you know you you don't need you can you don't need nothing really yeah so it's and you know what the explanation is let's let's make it clear are you going people say no i don't correct no i see you when people come to our practice i see you just two minutes where we have say hello and you have not stopped correcting the dog no yeah yeah no you don't because what we want to create is an avoidance response i if i give a correction what i want to to to make is i i give you this correction so the next time this happens you try to avoid that and block that that behavior and so i don't have to correct you anymore and you get the learning no we don't give no reason because we want to create a concept you you do this i reward you i do you do this i correct you so you stay always in the positive right never go to the negative correction no right don't touch the iron right no so you don't touch it you learn it very clearly very fast

what goes on but if if the if the iron is just warm you keep on going and going and going and going and the people don't stay and then you become this is centralized no i don't know sorry no no yeah but you create the sensibilization and habituation so but it's very simple approach you know to the learning but what what if i give a correction my task is to give the correction in the doses that is good enough to avoid the situation it's like if you give antibiotic i don't want to give antibiotic but if i give antibiotic it just a very low doses what happens i create resistance right and then when the problem comes i have to use every time more and more but if if i use antibiotics i should do use the you the doses that is normal that i can cure you but if i give you too much i poison you and i give you problems so the the analysis and the professional task if if i need i give you the antibiotic that is good enough to cure you so i don't need antibiotics anymore right no but we want to have the possibility if i have that situation is my professional observation who decides if you need antibiotic or not or no or no no only homeopathic you know so so how do you think this can get the reverse yeah because that's that's a question of i think yours you're like in that right direction the people that we are doctrine is we must have knowledge right so it's it's Thank you.