#11 윌 방구라와 함께하는 펫 토크 투데이: 에피소드# 11: 도그 트레이너 마이클 엘리스 인터뷰, 반려견 훈련, 고양이 훈련, 반려동물 건강 및 웰빙. 반려견 보호자들의 전화 상담 및 가장 흔한 반려견 훈련 및 고양이 행동 문제에 대한 솔루션 제공

Well, needless to say, in past times when this would happen, the pack leader would come in, stop the fight, and she would mend fences. Well, there was no one there to mend the fences. And I did my best to try to, you know, get hurt feelings over with, but they just won't forgive each other. Yeah. So I've had to divide my house up. One lives on the west side of the house. The other one lives on the east side of the house. And so, which makes it very troublesome because I've got to be very particular on where these dogs are. Right. Because if they do get a hold of each other, they start all over again, and it's a bloodbath. Yep. Yep. And, you know, I never thought little chihuahuas would be so vicious, but they are. Absolutely. Yeah, any dog. Any dog. Yeah. So what's your question for me, Laura? Yeah. So my question is, how can I reunite them? Mm-hmm. Okay. As far as... What would be the best one? When it comes to reuniting dogs that are fighting, you know, one of the things that we have to understand is that we can't just put them right back together. We may put them right back together, and they're fine for a day, for two days, for five days a week, two weeks, a month. Then all of a sudden, there's a fight. We have to understand that if they have been fighting and if they had a fight, that chances are it's going to happen again. We've got to start a training program with both dogs so that they will listen to us and our commands, not just when things are calm and quiet, but when things are absolutely crazy, when all heck is breaking loose. Because when these dogs are going after one another, all right, they're in that red zone. The adrenaline is just pumping. And they don't have the ability to think. They don't have the ability to use that frontal cortex, that thinking part of the brain, the cognitive part of the brain. They're in that older middle part of the brain, the hippocampus. They are working off of instinct. They're in fight or flight. So if you want to control your dogs verbally with commands, first and foremost, knowing that they fight and knowing that something like that could happen, you've got to have such great conditioning and repetition that their response to your commands are conditioned to the point of muscle memory, where they don't have to think about responding. And you have to train in situations where there's a lot of stimulation and distractions and things going on to try to teach them to keep focus no matter what else is going on around them. Because one of the most difficult things is going to be when they get back together.

Now, again, don't get the false illusion and the false hope because you get them together that everything is okay. So one of the things we do is we begin to bring the dogs out at a distance. If necessary, if we need to muzzle the dogs, we muzzle the dogs. You know, most of the time, at some point in the training, the dogs are going to get muzzled as they get close enough so they can't hurt each other. We are reading body language. We, our clients learn an extensive amount of body language information and education about canine body language, the stress signals, the calming signals, because we have to be able to read that body language because I don't care what distance it is. If your dogs are showing stress signals, it's going to get worse the closer we get. And stress and anxiety are at the root. Fear is at the root of all aggression. So first thing is you've got to be able to have control of your dog. That's phenomenal obedience control. Secondly, you have to then work on gradually and systematically getting your dogs together closer and closer over a period of time. That can take months before they're actually nose to nose. And there's a big process to that. I always tell people, look, if you've got aggression, that can be serious. If you've got aggression, that's something that's really difficult to try to do on your own, whether it be reading a book, whether it be going on YouTube, whether it be buying some DVDs. If anybody watches DVDs anymore, whether or not, you know, it's calling the show. The best way I can help you right now is to tell you that, hey, keep them separated because you have to. If you have another fight, it's only going to get worse. Right. The other thing is hire a trainer. Hire a trainer to help you. Hire someone who's very skilled in working with dogs with aggression because this is not an easy thing. And I wish when people called with aggression that, you know, I had some great answers. But quite frankly, I could do a complete show just on aggression alone. And maybe in the future I'll do that. Maybe I'll do a show or two or a series just on aggression because there is so much that needs to be covered. And I'm not doing any justice when we're just, you know, taking a call or two on that. Anyway, I'm Will Bangura and you are listening to Pet Talk today on 1100 KFNX, where I take your calls and answer your pet behavior and training questions each and every Saturday from 9 to 10 a.m. And we are going to go to break here. And when we come back, hopefully, we are going to be talking to Michael Ellis. Stay tuned. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

I can't control my emotions. I can't get these thoughts out of my head. I sleep all day. Or I can't sleep at all. If I can't concentrate, I'm going to fail again. Why would anyone want to be with me? My heart is beating out of my chest. I just can't live like this anymore. I'm depressed. I'm depressed. And I'm scared. And I'm scared. And I'm scared. And I'm scared. It takes courage to reach out for help. At Mesa Psychiatry, we'll help you find the peace and calmness that's been missing for so long. Depression, fear, and anxiety don't have to define you. Together at Mesa Psychiatry, we'll begin the process of restoring your confidence and emotional well-being, bringing joy and happiness back into your life. Begin the journey of healing today by calling Mesa Psychiatry at 480-882-1014. That's 480-882-1014. Or schedule an appointment online at MesaPsychiatry.com. Do you have a dog that needs obedience training? Is your dog's bad behavior driving you crazy? You love your dog, and choosing the right dog trainer is important. Hiring a dog trainer that you can trust may be what's most important. Phoenix Dog Training is the most trusted dog training company in Arizona. Phoenix Dog Training is accredited with the Better Business Bureau and has an A-plus rating that you can trust. Having an untrained and unruly dog can be frustrating, embarrassing, and even costly. All that can change with one phone call to Phoenix Dog Training. For over 30 years, Phoenix Dog Training has been the Valley's number one choice for thousands of happy dog owners. Phoenix Dog Training is the winner of the Phoenix Award for Best Dog Behavior Training and Impressive, seven years in a row. Say goodbye to your dog's bad behavior and hello to the dog of your dreams. Call Phoenix Dog Training today at 602-769-1411. That's 602-769-1411. Or visit them on the web at phoenixdogtraining.com. Are you planning a trip or just going away for a day or two? I want to take a minute to talk about the folks at Paw Nanny Tammy. It's difficult to leave a pet behind. It's even more difficult for your pet. Forget sending your pet to a stressful boarding and kennel facility and instead give your pet and furry best friend the gift of relaxation. Staying at home with one of the professional in-home pet sitters at Paw Nanny Tammy. Your pet will love chilling out with Tammy or one of her team members who will be playing with and taking care of your pet 24 hours a day where it's most comfortable. Your pet's home. The other awesome thing is that they can bring in mail, water plants, trees, and even your lawn.

Call Paw Nanny Tammy to inquire about having them stay with your pet while you're away. They even offer a free meet and greet to make sure that it's the perfect fit. Call 602-472-4360. That's 602-472-4360. Or visit their website, pawnannytammy.com. Raised by wolves with canine DNA in his blood. Sharing funny tales about your four-legged fur babies. Answering questions, some even ridiculous. And taking your calls. It's Pet Talk Today with your host, Will Bangura. To have your questions answered or to comment on today's show, Call the KFNX listener line at 602-277-5369. 602-277-KFNX. Those outside of Phoenix call toll-free, 866-536-1100. Now, back to Pet Talk Today with your host and everyone's favorite pet behavior expert, Will Bangura. Welcome back. I'm Will Bangura and you're listening to Pet Talk Today on 1100 KFNX. Pet Talk Today is here every Saturday from 9 to 10 a.m. where I answer your pet behavior and training questions. If you have a question and we're not able to answer your question, you can always email a question to us. The email address is info at PetTalkToday.com. Before we went to break, I was talking to Laura. We were talking about dog aggression and I mentioned to her that there's so much about dog aggression that I will probably be doing a series which will take several weeks. We'll devote the entire show just to aggression, different types of aggression, how to manage it, what it is that you need to do to try to live safely with dogs that are aggressive. But right now, we are going to go to our next segment and I'm honored. I'm honored because I'm going to get a chance and you're going to get a chance to listen to Michael Ellis. Michael Ellis is an internationally renowned dog trainer and teacher with 30 years of experience in the competitive dog sports area. And he's taught extensively to a very diverse group of trainers from competitive sport trainers, police departments, to the U.S. military, to search and rescue groups. He's done service dog training. He's worked with different pet dog trainers on pet dog training. It's been said that Michael's clear, concise, and patient style has made him one of the most popular coaches of trainers in the country. He's given over 300 seminars in the United States, Canada, and South America, which is well over 1,000 days of lecture and practical work. And he's done that in the last eight years alone. And as a result, he has been one of the driving forces in popularizing reward-based training systems for the protection sports area. Michael has competed in and done decoy helper work for several national-level competitions,

both in Schutzund and ring sport. He was also one of the first Mondo Ring decoys certified in the United States. He has coached national champions in several disciplines and many national and international competitors. But it's been said he is perhaps most proud of the hundreds of club-level and beginning trainers that he has helped to improve their communication and physical skills. He was a past president of the American Working Malinois Association and a former board member of the U.S. Mondo Ring Association. And that is one heck of a bio. So, Michael Ellis, welcome to Pet Talk today. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Will. I really appreciate you guys having me on. You know, I first heard of you. I first learned of you, I think, when I was on Learburg.com. This is quite a ways back. And I started seeing clips that Ed was showing. And the thing that impressed me the most was the unique blend that made just perfect sense to me. It really matched with the way that I like to train, you know, positive base, but am okay with using aversives, you know, after they've learned and then using aversives in a very special way that isn't, you know, anything that causes fear or pain or intimidation. So, really resonated with what you were doing and wanted to get you on the show so that we can go ahead and promote you, promote, you've got a school for dog trainers as well, and just kind of chit-chat about dogs and dog training. How did you first get involved with dogs in any way or dog training? I think my story is not unlike lots of dog trainers. I was an animal junkie from the time I was a kid, of course, bothering the parents for a dog and where they finally caved when I was in junior high school, 12 or 13. Got a German Shepherd and the parents said I had to train it. So, went to the local German Shepherd Dog Club and took an obedience class, got involved in confirmation. And it was just sort of appealed to me right away. I have a little bit of a different arc, I think, than a lot of professional trainers in that I sort of didn't set out to have this be my career. It was a hobby all through high school and college, something that I did for fun and got involved in sport and that kind of thing. And there was a period when I had left a certain club that I'd been training with and they had some new members and they asked if I'd come back and help out with the new members. And so I did a little bit and so I gave a little mini clinic. And that spawned another one and another one. And next thing you know, I was flying around the country to dog training clubs,

mostly helping people that were already dog trainers get better at that. And I woke up one day and said, oh, I guess this isn't the arc of my career now at this point. And I found that my interest in dogs shift. I mean, obviously, anybody that's good at dog training is really interested in dogs and understanding it. But the teaching part of it really appealed to me at a certain point in there. And I found that I could have more impact on the culture of dog training by training other trainers. And so although I've certainly, like any dog trainer that's done this professionally, have helped lots of people train their own dogs individually and done pet dog training and certainly all of that, the shift into like a trainer of trainers for me was a way in which I could sort of impact a larger group of people and to kind of try to bring what is, I'm sure you know, good fundamental dog training to as many people as possible. Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what good dog training is amongst the general public, certainly, and even amongst a lot of dog trainers. And so finding a way to reach as many different trainers who then are going to go out and reach all their clients seemed to be the best way to do that. So I kind of dove in this world. Absolutely. That's a great story. You know, you mentioned something about misconceptions as far as what is good dog training. Talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, I think lots of people look at dogs as something that you train and you're done, right? That you step in and there's a problem, you address that specific problem, and you're done. But it's not. It's an ongoing process. And just like all the things that we learn in life, you're never finished with it. If you've learned something and you stop attending to it, stop practicing it, stop thinking about it, that skill erodes. And I think getting people to understand that dog training is a day-to-day activity, that if you're going to have it's relationship-based, it's consistency-based, it's kind of showing up and putting in the time and doing the work, it's being thoughtful about setting things up. It's not there. Not a lot of quick fixes. I think our society is focused on, like, I have this problem. Who can help me fix this problem quickly? Instead of looking at kind of the process and developing a relationship with dogs. And I think lots of people are excited by the glamorous aspects or what they kind of think dog training is. And the human-dog connection is kind of remarkable. There's no other species, certainly, that forms relationships with us the way dogs do.

But it's a process-driven thing. You have to kind of like the day-to-day. You have to like being consistent. You have to like animal husbandry. And generally speaking, the drama in dog training comes from people trying to solve problems quickly and people not actually committing to consistent day-to-day interactions with their dogs. That's so true. And there's no magic techniques. Like, everybody's looking for the new special way of doing it. The information's out there, and we're all playing off the same sets of themes. And it's really about finding the right set of tools to use on a given dog and then being consistent about it and showing up. You know, my world is I've got a dog training business here in Phoenix. And, you know, 99% of what we're doing is pet dog training. We tend to focus very heavily on dogs with aggression issues, dogs with fears and phobias. And, boy, when you talk about how it is a process and it takes time and there's no quick fixes, that is the truth. And the hardest thing is for us a lot of times is to get people to have the discipline to continue to train their dogs. Michael, we've got to take a break and go to commercial in just a little bit. Sure. But when we come back, I'd like to talk a little bit about your school that you have. It's in California. Is that correct? Correct, yeah. So, yeah, when we come back, I'd like to talk a little bit about your school, kind of share the different courses you have. And then after that, I think we'll talk a little bit more about, you know, dog training. Pet dog training would be something that I'd like to get into. So we will do that when we get back. I'm Will Bangura. You're listening to Pet Talk today on 1100 KFNX. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Visit us online at 1100kfnx.com. Arizona's only independent voice. Independent Talk, 1100 KFNX. CBS News Brief. In Oregon, amid the massive wildfires blazing in the nation's west, officials say they are preparing for a possible mass fatality event. This, as many remain missing across the scorched land. This woman is at her wit's end. The fire is very scary. Seeing the stuff that's been going on and all of it burning down. There's a different kind of weather warning for the Gulf Coast again. CBS News meteorologist David Parkinson says there's a new tropical storm. The entire southwest coast could be seeing some really heavy rain, three, four, five inches of rain in a short period of time. As a result, can't rule out a flash flooding threat. But there's good news for football fans.

A new version of Little Richard's 1956 hit, Rip It Up, is going to be ESPN's new theme song for Monday Night Football as the network tries to bring some new energy to fans amid the COVID-19 pandemic. CBS News Brief. I'm Allison Keyes. Arizona News Radio. State health officials report 605 new coronavirus cases today and 27 new deaths. We now have more than 208,000 cases and more than 5,300 fatalities. Our positive rate is at 4%. Been that way for four weeks. While the Navajo Nation has made significant progress in its fight against COVID-19, President Jonathan Nez says the pandemic is far from over. I could say that we've won our first battle. But in a war, there's multiple battles, right? And there may be a second wave. That means there's a second battle. And now we've got to prepare ourselves for that second battle. Tucson City Council Member Paul Durham will take a temporary leave from the council because his husband is getting treated for terminal cancer. And the U of A has hired private security guards to make sure that students follow COVID-19 protocols. D-backs beat the Mariners 4 to 3. Mike South State up. Arizona News Radio. From the KFNX Weather Center. Well, this morning, a clear sky. Sunny with widespread haze today. The high 104. Clear and hazy tonight. Those 78. Sunshine with a haze on Sunday. High 106. Sunny Monday. High 106. I'm meteorologist Jim Minaldi from the KFNX Weather Bug Weather Center. Currently in downtown Phoenix, it's 80 degrees. Next news in 30 minutes or when it breaks. Here on Independent Talk. 1100 KFNX. Raised by wolves with canine DNA in his blood. Sharing funny tales about your four-legged fur babies. Answering questions. Some even ridiculous. And taking your calls. It's Pet Talk Today with your host, Will Bangura. To have your questions answered or to comment on today's show, call the KFNX listener line at 602-277-5369. 602-277-KFNX. Those outside of Phoenix call toll-free. 866-536-1100. Now, back to Pet Talk Today with your host and everyone's favorite pet behavior expert, Will Bangura. Welcome back. I'm Will Bangura. You're listening to Pet Talk Today on 1100 KFNX. I'm here each and every Saturday morning from 9 to 10 a.m. where I take your calls and answer your pet behavior and training questions. Today, we are interviewing Michael Ellis. I'm honored to have Michael with me. We were talking a little bit about, before we went to break, some dog training philosophy issues. But I want to have, Michael, you've got a school for dog trainers. And I think that will also let us know a little bit about your approach and how you do things.

Can you share with us about your school for dog trainers? Sure, absolutely. It's 11 years now. I opened a school for trainers. I had been traveling full-time, giving seminars to dog training clubs and organizations. And a lot of travel. And I was a little burnt on the traveling thing. So I had spent a significant amount of time kind of coaching other trainers. So I thought, as I mentioned before, the best thing I could do was to open a school for trainers to help people become better trainers. And I think we all are trainers of trainers in a sense. And if you're a pet dog trainer, you're helping someone become a trainer. They don't have to become a professional. But they have to understand good training and good training principles and how learning theory works and all of that. And so I opened a school. And initially, I kind of envisioned it as being like dog trainers college, right? People could go and immerse themselves in a kind of long-term program. But having come off a traveling schedule, I knew lots of trainers out there that already had businesses and things like that that wanted continuing education, couldn't leave their businesses to go to school for six months or any of that kind of thing. So I broke a lot of the program up into little modules, a week and two-week long kind of intensive courses on different subjects. And that was my initial model. And then over the years, we've added an intensive program as well. So we have students that come and stay with us for five months and kind of immerse themselves in dog training completely. And then we also have students and trainers that already are established trainers come to take classes on specific topics to continue their education. Anything from, you know, beginning behavior creation, reward-based training to proper electronic collar work to how to motivate dogs, good management strategies, all kinds of things like that. And then we have some sports-specific classes, too, for people that are interested in be it agility or protection sports or dock dive, all kinds of, you know, there's a million things you can do with your dogs, which is lovely. And we try to kind of educate people on the through line between all these things, how pet dog training and sport dog training and police dog training and service dog training really are all operating on the same set of principles. And we're just making adjustments to the dog and the person in front of us, you know. Talk a little bit more about that. If you were really wanting to kind of explain that to just your everyday pet dog owner, how would you explain that to them?

How would that make sense to them? I would say, like, understanding how the process works, right? So just understanding how dogs learn, right? Understanding what we would call learning theory, classical and operant conditioning. Understanding the basic ways in which we manipulate dogs. How we introduce the tools we're going to use. Whether we're using rewards or whether we're using the leash. And if you have an understanding of all the tools and principles, then you can sit down and say, what are my goals for this dog? And you can do a sort of temperament assessment. This dog's a more excitable dog. This dog's a more easily motivated dog. This dog's a lower energy dog. And your goals, meaning what kinds of behaviors do I want the dog to perform? And understanding, you don't have to, again, become a professional, but understanding how the process works and understanding how dogs think on a basic level allows you then to make a plan that suits that dog. And so what I would do for a sport dog, I'm using the same sets of tools to manipulate that dog. I'm just creating higher levels of motivation, and I wouldn't necessarily need that in a pet dog. But I need some motivation in a pet dog. I need them motivated to come and call and things like that. And so it's just degrees and details, but the principles are all exactly the same. And what I would love is for everyone to kind of, everyone, I think it should be in school. I mean, 50% of the household in the country plus have dogs. You can't go out in the world without encountering a dog. And to me, basic kind of understanding of dog behavior should be in our elementary and secondary education in some fashion because people, we live with them so intensely. And if you understand that, then it's just small adjustments on the same sets of principles. You know, it seems to me, sorry to interrupt you, but when you were saying that, Mike, I was thinking to myself, the times that I've been visiting Europe, you know, it seems to me that pet dogs in Europe are very different than pet dogs here in the United States. For sure. And, you know, I think it's that, you know, they, perhaps they take that similar attitude, you know, with you competing around the world and training other trainers that compete. You know, maybe you can talk about that. I don't know if you can or not, but I talked to my clients about the differences in attitude between, you know, Europe and the United States. And why and how we have certain problems here. Can you maybe touch on that? Absolutely.

I think you're spot on that dog training is deep in the European culture, especially the Western European culture. Right. And so it's trickled down in a way. And for whatever reason, most of the Europeans that I know, whether they have a pet dog or not, they appreciate that dog training is a process and that your dog should be trained. Right. I encounter more people in the U.S. And I'm not exactly sure why, who think that dogs should just be dogs. Right. But, of course, we're asking for a species to live in society. And there are rules for living in society that we all have to abide by. And so it's not particularly a functional way of looking at it. And they're more practical about it, in a sense. They're like, dogs are going to live amongst us. Then they need to be trained. And it's sort of a given that they take that on. And also, I think in the U.S., we have a little bit of an attention span problem. We have an instant gratification culture a little bit, I think. And so people want to get to the end without doing the work, without taking the journey. And I didn't encounter that as much with the Europeans. They understand a puppy is a puppy. My European friends, and they understand that you can't expect a 2-year-old to behave like a 10-year-old, like an 18-year-old, like a 20-year-old the same way. Right. And they are in it for the haul. And as a result, the dogs are better behaved. There are dogs in public there all the time. They're well-behaved. They understand it. And people are practical about that. Yeah. The other thing that I saw, and like I said, you've been there a whole lot more than I have. Last time I was there, gosh, 1989, and I was just a young kid in the Army at the time. But I remember because I, similar to you, I had a German Shepherd growing up. I started training dogs at the North Shore German Shepherd Dog Training Club, which was an AKC-based club. And, of course, we trained and we competed with our dogs and did the whole AKC obedience stuff with the dog. But what impressed me was that when I was in Europe, in the Army, people could take their dogs anywhere. And their dogs, when they were walking them, were aloof. They could care less about me. They could care less about another person who's walking by with their dog. So different than what we have here, where most of the time, when a dog sees a person on a walk or whatever, they're going crazy. They're excited. They're out of control. Yep. Same thing when people come over to the house, guests come over, the dog's crazy. It's out of control. And then also with other dogs. Yeah. Meeting other dogs. They're out of control.

And a lot of times that is, you know, one of the things that a trigger, you know, to some of the aggression that dogs have. And it's such a different way of thinking about how we interact with our dogs in our culture, in our society. And, you know, I wish people would see this more. I'm glad we're talking about it because you get to enjoy your dog a whole lot more when it has that high level of training. Oh, it's incredible. It's completely different. And I think you've hit on something in there when you're talking about the Europeans. Their dogs are what I would call neutral, right? They're uninterested. But they also, that's cultivated through socialization. Meaning we have here in the U.S. sort of a dog park culture. Yes. Where everybody goes out and wants their dogs to meet other dogs. Yeah. And in public, people want to pet your dog. In Europe, nobody considers petting your dog. Yeah. They wouldn't even consider asking. It's just not on their radar. It's not their dog. They wouldn't pet it. But here, people, you have to fend people off if you're not careful. They're offended if you won't let them. Yeah. And absolutely, we're putting dogs in a lot of situations. They're taking dogs out there, cutting them loose with other dogs. They're making them very doggy. They're not cultivating that kind of sense of neutrality and control before the freedom, right? The freedom is given from the beginning. And then you've got to try to rein it in after the dogs had a life of freedom. And that's much more challenging than had you sort of set boundaries and not let it get to that point to begin with. And it is a cultural difference. People here, when you try to counsel them not to let their dog go meet every dog they see on the street or let everyone pet their dog, they feel like they're depriving their dog in some way of something, which is they're setting themselves up for difficulties, unfortunately. Well, you know, I always tell them, I joke with them. I say, listen, the first day your dog comes up to you and tells you, whispers in your ear or yells at you and says, hey, I want to go to the dog park. Well, then go ahead and take your dog to the dog park. We've got to take another break to hear from our sponsors. Michael, please hold on. When we get back from the break, we'll continue our conversation with Michael Ellis. We'll be right back. Are you planning a trip or just going away for a day or two? I want to take a minute to talk about the folks at Paw Nanny Tammy. It's difficult to leave a pet behind. It's even more difficult for your pet.

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Or visit them on the web at phoenixdogtraining.com. Raised by wolves with canine DNA in his blood. Sharing funny tales about your four-legged fur babies. Answering questions, some even ridiculous. And taking your calls. It's Pet Talk Today with your host, Will Bangura. To have your questions answered or to comment on today's show, call the KFNX listener line at 602-277-5369. 602-277-KFNX. Those outside of Phoenix call toll-free, 866-536-1100. Now, back to Pet Talk Today with your host and everyone's favorite pet behavior expert, Will Bangura. Welcome back, everybody. You're listening to Pet Talk Today on 1100 KFNX. I'm Will Bangura, your host, where I take your calls and answer your pet behavior and training questions each and every Saturday morning from 9 to 10 a.m. If you ever miss an episode of Pet Talk Today, be sure and check out our podcast. You can go to Apple Podcasts or you can go to Spotify. Just do a search for Pet Talk Today and be sure to subscribe to that. You can also communicate with us, see what's happening with Pet Talk Today by going to our Facebook page. Go to Facebook and just do a search for Pet Talk Today as well. Before we went to break, we were talking to world-renowned trainer and trainer of trainers, Michael Ellis. Michael, welcome back. Thanks. So one of the things I wanted to talk about, you know, I went on your website and I was looking through some of the information on your courses and I thought it was interesting and just thought having you expound on it would be great. In your behavior modification course, you talk about in the beginning the course will focus on holistic approaches. And then at the bottom it says students will learn to approach behavior modification globally instead of the all-too-common tact for isolating the problem behavior. Can you expand on that a little bit and talk about that? Because I think that that's something not only trainers need to learn and we need more of, but, you know, obviously them training pet dog owners, those that are in that part of the industry. But can you talk more about that? Absolutely. Like, I think it's, I mean, if you could get one thing through to the general public about behavioral issues, that one is that I've mentioned there are very, very few quick fixes for true behavior problems, established behavior problems. And frequently tackling the problem head on creates conflict and stress and can actually exacerbate the problem. And it's looking at your entire relationship, the structure in the dog's life, managing their environment,

installing alternative behaviors through training, making sure you're satisfying the dog's needs. So there's an entire way of kind of altering your relationship. And every behavior problem has a kind of multi-pronged approach. You need to kind of identify the problem and the trigger so that you can control when the dog's accessing what's triggering the behavior in the dog. And then you need to manage that so the dog doesn't continue to rehearse the behavior you want while you address other things. Can I communicate with my dog? Does my dog understand the alternative behaviors that are incompatible with the behavior that I want? And so there's a whole series. There's obedience, there's management, there's exercise, there's all kinds of other pieces in the way that we live with our dogs and approach training. And if you don't take in the whole dog and the whole situation, then you're going to be beating your head against the wall. And quick fixes frequently either make a problem worse or they're temporary, right? And you'll have the same problem back very shortly. And I think people radically underestimate the necessity of managing a dog that has a behavioral issue. It takes time to address that. And preventing the dog from continuing to do it in the short term while you address that is essential. And changing your lifestyle sometimes is necessary. And that's a hard thing for people to understand. People think that if I'm not tackling the problem head on, I'm not dealing with it, that I'm in some way avoiding it. But it's a necessary piece of the puzzle. Yeah, that is so true. I want to talk just briefly about another thing that was in there. And it said how to shorten your training timelines while still being fair to the dog. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So in sport training, or if I'm training my own dog, and of course I would love this for everybody, but if I'm training my own personal dog, I don't have a timeline. Right. Meaning I'm going to let the dog dictate it for me and I'm going to take as much time with each little thing as I think is necessary. And I don't say my dog has to be doing this by six months or this by a year or this by two years. I'll let that unfold as it feels like it should. Right. But of course, if you're a professional trainer, somebody is not going to sign on for two years of lessons. They need to see progress in a shorter time frame. So what we wind up doing is there are compromises in doing that. Right. Everything's not going to be exactly perfect. So helping people understand what compromises are acceptable.

And then when you're making compromises that put the dog in a position to fail and force us to use tools, aversive tools that we wouldn't have to. And so where's that sweet spot in between where I'm still doing my job of being fair to the dog, teaching them before holding them accountable, all those sorts of things. And but also satisfying the client's needs and helping them see progress so that they want to stick with it and they want to keep in it. And so that's the pet dog trainer's dilemma. Ultimately, is that idea that, OK, I don't have an infinite amount of time due to economics and what my clients are willing to tolerate. But how can I get the best possible dog training in in a timeline that's still fair to the dog? And that compromises, of course, different depending on the dog, the skill of the client and their goals or needs. But I think generally most of the traditional pet dog programs that are out there are driven more by economics than good dog training. And it's not the fault of the trainers. You're they're out there competing. And if so, people offering, OK, I have a three week in board to off the obedience kind of thing. There's no way you're doing that and being fair to the dog. Right. Like that. That's that's not a realistic time frame. You're going to have to jump a lot of steps. But there's somewhere between that and, OK, a six month in board that that can maintain fairness and be effective as well. You know, it's interesting that you say that, because in Phoenix, in my market, the board and train is huge. And my guess is it's pretty much that way for pet dog trainers throughout the country. That board and train is huge, especially knowing how a lot of pet dog owners would love to. You know, we're talking about quick fixes. They'd love to be able to send their dog away and believe that it's going to come back and everything's fixed. And, you know, I won't do board and train. It is against my philosophy. I don't think that it's effective. And especially with the fact that, you know, 90 percent of what we do is deal with dogs with, you know, severe aggression issues. Sure. You're not going to do that in that time frame. Also, gosh, that needs to be the skills that the owner needs to learn in order to manage a dog like that, because it's management. It's not a cure. Yeah. I think you're right. And I think the truth is, like, if it's just a board and train, somebody's expecting you to send the dog to you and you train it and give it back to them and it's done, then you're absolutely right. But there are hybrid models.

Like, there's no successful dog training program that doesn't include the client in the process. If they don't understand it, if they're not committed to it, if they're not interested in maintaining it, nothing you do is going to help. And so what I found when I was doing board and train, the model that I settled on is I could take the dog for short periods of time because, obviously, we do it all the time. So I could move over some basic skills kind of quickly compared to a client. But I showed them they were included in the whole thing. So I might take the dog and do a little bit, and then I would meet with them, show them what I did. I would have them do the same thing with the dog. And then they'd send them home with the dog for a period of time. They'd work. I'd take the dog back, progress something, do it again. So they were there every step of the way and involved every step of the way and understood what the process looked like so that away from that, they could continue to maintain it. But then some of the technical things you could speed up a little bit. And I think that's some of the benefit. And then sometimes with behavior problems, getting the dog out of the environment for a short period of time while you just sort of reset them a little bit can be helpful too, right? Because the problem may be exacerbated by the situation at home. And so sometimes pulling them out of their situations. But the classic model, send my dog, get it trained, get it back, and I'm done. No, that doesn't work. I agree with you 100%. Michael, I hate that we are out of time. I would love to have you back on the show. Thank you so much for being my guest and sharing your knowledge with everybody. Folks, make sure that you tune in next Saturday for Pet Talk today from 9 to 10 a.m. I'm Will Bangora, your host. Have a great rest of your weekend. We are out of here. You're listening to IndeVent.