에피소드 1 - 실존적 음식

really like just excites me about you know just competing and sports and you know things like that and I stumbled on in my early um uh early time into dog training I stumbled on some videos of igp um and I was just blown away by you know the routines that they were doing with their dogs and the way the dogs looked and the Precision the control the attitude of the dog was just it just captivated me and I cons consumed in my in my first week of stumbling onto that stuff on YouTube and Google I probably consumed over a hundred hours of of video that was available and at that point it was just an I was addicted it was I was hooked and time went on you know I was training locally with uh you know some people and had had gone had gotten some good information there was directed on to the the leerberg videos with Michael Ellis uh found found those as well to be like you said descriptive of the process and not so much the the quality um and and the the intrinsic motivations of the dog um and you know at the time I was working in software I was involved with a couple small businesses and a software company I mean I I got involved in Napo I Napo had been on the radar for quite a while I'd seen a lot of the BART videos um on YouTube which were always you know top of my list for things that I wanted to Aspire to become as a dog trainer um but but it wasn't until uh 2019 when the school really was on my radar and I was able to make things happen and and went through and became a gold graduate and um have since been teaching napoo I've implemented it into my dog businesses and it's been you know a very effective way for me to um find success in the dog world so that's what brought us here and again introduced me to you through that Community the the Napo Community has been very uh it's been a valuable asset you know it's a global platform uh for people to connect and support each other there's a lot of people all over the country I've met some amazing friends through it so it's been fun did you ever did you ever get to go to a seminar with Bart or did you just go to the school no I so I knew he was I knew he was touring he was doing uh seminars in Florida he was doing seminars in Virginia and uh he had done a couple up in like Jersey Pennsylvania um but i' had never been able to go make it out to those it was at a time in my life where where um I just like I was fairly newly married um working you know just trying to make ends me you know just didn't have the resources available and the time to to carve out to to get out there for that so I consumed all of this content online everything all the clips that people

were posting of him and trying to follow and but yeah he was he was the goal um you know to get out there and learn from from that methodology yeah yeah yeah I got I got got to go to one seminar yeah yeah he's very entertaining you know of course but also right g a lot of knowledge yeah so brought us here today yeah so I mean you and I we we speak weekly probably if not daily uh and um have lots of interesting conversations and you know we both uh commented that we've seen a lot of Buzz around the subject of training with food um more specifically um the use of existential food training for training dogs the benefits the criticisms and everything in between uh and and I thought it would be a really good topic to kick off our our introductory podcast uh to discuss first of all what is existential dog food training what are the misconceptions about it what are the benefits the the pros the cons how it's used correctly so it's not misconstrued or taken out of context from someone who may be trying to trying to see monkey do it everything in between um because I think there's a lot of value to it but it's it's a highly charged highly charged subject and topic of conversation because there's a lot of misunderstanding about and a lot of people see it misapplied and and and we're not here to promote any of those misinterpretations we're here to set the record straight on what is existential food training which is why I'm happy to be here with you to have that so maybe Mike why don't you go ahead and kind of provide the definition because it is one of the one of the Core Concepts that separates um Nao from a lot of other dog training philosophies um is is its approach to to using um exist existential food training so let me so as far as that term existential food right or existential Food Training did you ever hear of that before Napal Pole or outside of Napal pole no I mean the only type I mean you hear about food training or treat based training or reward training but you never hear it was never um the the the moniker existential Food Training I I hadn't heard about that until I had uh discovered people practicing naoo y yeah neither had I I you know you'd heard about using food or whatever but a lot of it was not not even about using their their we'll get into definition second but using their food to train but it was like you were at you you were using treats to train yeah right for the most part is what i' heard yeah but so I did hear it first with naoc Co and when you first hear of existential Food Training right I mean the simple definition is that you use the the dog's daily caloric need for

training right so they eat 100 Kibbles a day you're going to use 100 cubles during their training right they're not going to get more or less um and it's just going to be that just enough to to satisfy their their hunger or their their need for food and not more right um and and to to add to that to it's not that you're the amount is the the required amount like that they need to maintain a healthy weight without diminishing their weight or their quality of health or their their status it's like what is their their and every dog's going to be different right they're all going to have different caloric requirements you know a Mastiff might have like you know or or a dog an athletic dog like you know the Michael Phelps of the dog world might require a 10,000 calorie diet per day whereas like a smaller toy dog might only need like 500 calories in its day you know and we're not saying taking it beneath that so that it can't subsist and stay at its ideal set point for weight and and health we're we're using the ideal point the ideal amount of food that keeps it at its set point or the ideal weight right without being without being um uh excessive and weight gaining on the dog or diminishing the weight of the dog I think that's an important uh clarification key the key there for what you said is Health right right it's to keep them at their best like Health healthwise right yeah which I think that's where some of the um mistakes come in with people that first think of existential food you know is that they keep the dog at a caloric deficit yes and that's a misconstrued ideology that when people think of oh napoo using existential food we keep them at deficit no we don't we give them the allotted calories and make that available to them for their for their day and for training purposes yeah exactly um so do you have any examples that you can give us like of existential feeding right how would you use it yeah so I mean um it can be like at at any time of the the day the dog only earns the food opportunity through working for the food in a in a in a like a call it it's not like quid pro quo is a bad way to name it but there's an exchange there's there's something there's some work there's an ethic involved in exchange for the food which is a natural concept to the dog right I mean dogs are domesticated I understand that I'm not trying to get into a conversation that we're having wild animals in our house but like they do have they are predators and they do have those drives that come from animals in the wild foxes coyotes wolves things like that and there's no free meal in the wild right like and and and I first heard this from Bart you

know but animals are only overweight in the hands of a human you know and in the wild they only take what they need to survive and they move on because if they linger too long there's a risk of another wolf pack coming after their their core or the prey that they've Domin like they they've taken so they need to eat what they need and then they move on and they take to to hiding shelter or to migration or what whatever it is so when it pertains to the existential Food Training you're taking the opportunity you say you know again like you said if the dogs's got a hundred Kibbles and maybe they're big siiz pieces of kibble or meatballs right and that's what they need for throughout their day then they earn their food through training and and training opportunities and you use the value of the intrinsic food right the the the food is a unconditioned reinforcer there's no need for you to teach it teach the dog that this is valuable in its life it automatically has the money is strong you know and not only that but the dogs will hunt for food right or they'll hunt for behaviors that cause them to get food correct and I think that's that's key in the whole thing with existential food is that dog wants to get the food yeah figure out a way to get it right and and in that construct the dog is thinking creatively they're not just some some robot or a drone that just sits there it's 8 o'clock you know open my mouth and let mama bird feed baby bird right like it's there's no thinking there's so much there's really a lot that you can get from existential food training because the dog Bec uh they they become independent you can overcome some insecurities right but even there with the birds right the the birds are learning how to get the food because what happens after the first time that the mother bird comes back right soon as they know the motherb bird came back they start opening their mouths correct it was a it was conditioned Behavior they learned it was a learn or a learn Behavior but nobody taught them they did it because they learned that that's how they get their food right right so is it is it cruel for the mother bird to want the baby bird to open their mouth to give their food I mean that's kind of reaching there but right it goes to like I think how people talk about existential food where it's not a good thing you know yeah and again it's like are are are we training animals are are dogs still animals or are they children have they have they graduated involved into children's status where they have rights and you know per like I mean like I love like I I don't think there's any question about

you or I like we love our dogs right and and you know people who practice modern dog training principles n poo the the idea is I mean it's done out of love it's not that like using existential Food Training makes you any less caring towards your animals in fact I think you set them up for a better life you know yeah it's using that as I think as a tool also right yeah and like you said the dog does not have to learn to like food right it's it's got a natural intrinsic value but it has to learn how to get it correct the behavior what opens the box I think that was one thing that I got from uh B Bart also was that use what nature already has in place right why make your job more difficult training dogs is hard enough right why make it more difficult which is that you know when you capture something that the dog is already doing and then you bust out the food and give it to them now the dog's like oh okay I did this thing and my person gave me food right right um and that's the thing I think if if the dog has been satiated with food they've had all their food right let's not talk about like certain dogs like Labs you know or dogs that'll eat all day long no matter how much food you give them right but the motivation to hunt goes down with the more food that they get in their belly right right or the hunger the hunger pangs if there aren't any hunger pangs the dogs are going to do whatever right they're just going to Mill around sniff stuff but if hunger pangs start now they're going to be like oh I need to hunt for that food and that's where it comes to existential food when you use their daily meal throughout the day and this is the other important part is the dog should not know when it's going to eat right it should not know when it's going to eat and it should not know how much it's going to get you know because then you create a pattern and the dog will only work for those patterns right I mean it it hearkens back to to to the to their counterparts in the wild like nature like there's no free meal in the wild you know there's no bunnies jumping into the mouth of the wolf like if the wolf doesn't hunt if he's not sniffing if his nose doesn't work correctly if he's not fast enough he's going to go hungry right that's how surviving takes place like nature is a very cruel like you know it's a cruel It's a cruel environment you know yep and that's where um I think Bart had said about if you miss that meal because you weren't good enough or you weren't fast enough right or you didn't concentrate later it'll bring concentration right right that little this thing will be like okay let me concentrate better let me make this task happen

so I can be sure to get my meal this time so I've got a question for you A lot of people who criticize the idea or notion of existential dog food training they say it's cruel but like what like so you're talking some of the benefits become concentration uh you know problem solving right why why would people be against that though like if if those are the benefits of existential Food Training why are people so against that right I think it becomes it comes down how they um I think they look at their dogs as not as dogs right but they start putting like you said they start um putting human qualities on their dogs you know whereas the dog is more simple I mean there's a lot of stuff you know that we can talk about as far as emotions and things but the dog is pretty simple you know they will go after Whatever Gets In the food but if you start um saying oh my dog hasn't eaten in a few hours I feel bad right or my dog missed a meal I don't and I don't like saying missed a meal they're fasting right my dog has been fasting for whatever five hours yeah I need to give him something then you're kind of you're not using that motivation of the dog and you're just giving them stuff you know just you feel bad whereas the dog I I don't think they feel bad they're just like oh okay I just haven't eaten what do I have to do to get the food and the thing exactly the and the thing that's crazy to me is like I mean I understand people having a really uh aversive reaction to the idea of like the the the word used um for people who misconstrue this is like deprivation training right like you're depriving the dog of food like to an unhealthy level right like this existential food training is not deprivation training we got to want to make that clear um and they're like well by by doing existential Food Training you're tying the dog's livelihood or its ability to survive and its life with obedience or whatever it's being required to do to earn the food well absolutely because at the end of the day we need to train the dog for safety right there if if there's no there's no greater reason to train a dog than to than to do it to keep it safe right yeah but I think what people Miss is that the the dogs are used to working for their food yeah why and and they enjoy it they enjoy it why why take that away from them correct actually I've had with my Mal buite but I've had times where I put the whole meal down in a bowl for him and he just looked at me like he's like yeah took a handful of that food and I got him to do a few behaviors gave him the handful and then he went to the bowl and ate the rest of the food like I've seen it a few times with

him he's just like no I I want to work right he's got the drive my other dogs don't do that but he did uhuh which is funny because I mean existential Food Training um you know na poo and and really like in its Essence it begins with the it begins with the end in mind right like it wants the dog who loves to do Behavior who looks good doing Behavior because it thinks its Advantage lies in those behaviors when a dog gets to that point having started in the foundation or or going through the process of existential Food Training you arrive at a dog where behavior is the absolute reward it loves to do the healing that's why dogs you know in sport work they they the really good ones they would keep on healing forget the ball forget the food that you're about to pay them with or the treat or whatever it is just let me keep healing which is why in some trainers constructs they will stop like to punish a dog for bad healing they'll stop movement because movement alone is reinforcing to the dog so in order to provide a truly correct experience they need to stop the motion otherwise it's only like a watered down correction you know yeah and that's I think that goes back to NE po where the desire comes out of the dog right and if you are always and that's where the difference I think with existential Food Training and some food training is that it's not a bribe in the like you're like please come do this so I can give you your reward reward yeah like the dog is going what do I have to do to get that reward yeah right and if you don't show them they will figure something out I I think it builds a more powerful behaviors in that the dog is thinking and trying to figure stuff out right would you would you agree so I for me it was really telling when I had a dog who um I my first dog I really truly did existential food training with right and to see the difference in the dog who's been maybe just reward treat trained or versus like true existential training like there is a quality of the dog that's quite different there's it's a it's quite dichotomous right would you agree that like it's hard for people to get on board until they see it or until they experience it for themselves because how can they imagine a dog who would really want to do something for itself to better its own situation yeah yeah I think yeah what you said is right but the people they don't understand when they first look at it they have something in their mind that they're thinking right like oh this is you know bribery or this is like a lot of people they're like oh this is cruel right you're forcing the dog to work for his food but someone who I I'm

not talking about people who might not understand I'm talking about people who see it and then understand it like it it really almost does take the experience of that before you kind of let it like click before I mean at least it did for me right yeah yeah I I see what you're saying exactly yeah it's the dog is more I think it's about motivation right I think that motivation builds even more when you're using that and you know I mean another criticism to continue the conversation about this and to kind kind of debunk the myth right um like myth busting here let's call it the myth busting uh segment on on uh our podcast but um is they say that you can't play like training with food is not fun for the dog or it's not um like existential Food Training keeps the dog in a fear State of Mind like dude yeah I know about you but like you know a lot of people use like um Chase and catch like they'll they'll they'll Mark the behavior toss the food and the dog learns to love the food or or the food Chase right they they get like addicted to the Hunt game in of itself you it's not just a simple delivery you can there's a million ways to deliver the food in existential food training that can make it fun for the dog correct and I think that that goes to where um the the purpose of existential Food Training and how you use it right you don't come out and not feed your dog and wait till it's hungry and then start training necessarily what you do is you give your dog an opportunity for that food and if he does whatever or if whatever you're working on in that moment if he does it he gets his food if he doesn't he misses his chance at that meal right the opportunity is no longer is no longer and you come back and I think that's where it builds the concentration and motivation and again people people seeing that would probably say well you know well that's not fair to the dog right like but who are we to say the dog should be hungry when I present it with food like sometimes someone offers me something hey do you want do you want to drink no I'm good like I don't need anything right but when I need it and someone's like selling me a $5 can of water it's like okay yeah I'll I'll shell out for that because I I want it and now I'm being active right yes and I think that's where the um a lot of people have said this but they said don't train your dog unless it wants what you have right and with that your dog wants what you'd have right it's not that you just fed him an hour ago and then you come out and try to give him treats and he's like uh you know what I don't care which goes to like when you feed on a schedule the dogs know that

schedule you know they know if I don't do anything right now and I don't get those treats at 5:00 pm I'm gonna eat right in the back of mind that's in there they know the pattern and that's why the expectation is there to get food at 5:00 pm and that's why they'll blow you off when you try to use food for the behavior you're bribing or baiting or prompting any of these common words that are used for that type of incentiv incentivization and what do people say they go oh if your dog is not motivated come back later right just put them away and come back but then what happens is now you're probably closer to the time of feeding so the dog is starting to get hungry and now you bring out the treats and now they're motivated and it's not that they were motivated for the treats it's motivated because they're a little bit hungrier right sure and that's why you lose that motivation but if you have existential feeding where the dog doesn't know when it's going to eat and it doesn't know how much it's going to get now every time you come out and you can give that word whatever you're ready to work you know or put chain or collar now they're like okay this is my opportunity I'm going to work for it right now I'm G to do whatever I think I have to do because I don't know when the next opportuni is going to come if I was to if I was to describe the goal of good existential dog uh dog training or existential Food Training I should say the goal of existential Food Training is active dog right we want the dog to be active so that we can be reactive to his behavior and in that construct we can shape the dog or guide the dog to doing the behaviors we find desirable not active because it's starving no you know active because it knows it has to be active to get that food to access that food it's how it's it's the he understands that that's what starts the game yep and that's where um would you say the understanding that's where the understanding is lost from people when they just hear the term and not being like defined for them or you know hold more in depth of how it is but when they just hear existential Food Training yeah I think that's where the breakdown is it has an ominous connotation existential like you don't it's not like we're trying to kill our dogs by training them with existential food it's it's about the mindset of the dog it's like hey I I need to be active right I need to be I need to do this that and the other um but when people hear the word EX existential food they think the lack or the the missed opportunity causes the dog a life or death situation and it's not that but let me say this because like our dogs are kind of

like I've heard it before what do they say like feast or famine or like if they say they were to catch a deer they would eat and then five days later they might catch another deer right or another animal right yeah so if our dog in our domesticated dog if they need 100 Kibbles a day to sustain their health to be healthy not overweight not not underweight oh my little dog is hungry speak but if they need those say they need 100 calories a day so in the week they need 7 I mean not calories 100 Kibbles a day so in the week they need 700 Kibbles to maintain that that status right 700 Kibbles yeah a dog is designed to eat the 700 Kibbles on one day on a Monday and then next Monday eat the 700 Kibbles they can sustain that way right they don't have to eat divided by seven days you know so if you had 100 Kibbles each day Monday and Tuesday and you fed them 50 Kibbles today and 150 tomorrow the dog is built wouldn't you say to to live like that going back to their close counterparts if they I mean and they don't even have to be close counterparts if the dog was to get lost say you were separated from your dog or he got lost in the mountains or the Wilderness you know would he eat regularly every day no would he still survive yes right most dogs would and dogs on the reservations in America they they prove that right and most of the time they're really wellfed and you know like they they' found ways to I think too too much fed right yeah yeah um because people feel bad for them so they give them yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's not good food either it's junk food you know and here's the other thing that that like the the critics of and again I'm not saying it's not like it's the people that hate on this without knowing that's that's the part that really is like disappointing because like you know there's like I don't care if you like to I mean train your dog with play that's fine or to use frisbee toys what or other types of like praise you know other types of reinforcement um or motivational um things to to motivate your dog to do a behavior that's fine but the if you throw out the idea of using food for training altogether you lose the opportunity to teach the dog in a very different state of mind a dog a dog the the hunger Drive allows for different learning than a dog looking to play like I have and the the type of dogs that we own you bring a ball or a tug out like it's like you say sit they hear ball right they they're not Computing the simple the simplest of things so being able to use food allows you to tap into a a more detail oriented mindset where they can calculate the specific nuances of what

you want them to do when you're training specific and complex behaviors right now when you want to add power to that layer in down the road layer a new value reward or a different to or a toy reward to bring in more power once that structure and infrastructure has been taught but like trying to go teach a complex behavior from the ground up using a a high value toy I mean sure there's some people who can probably get away with it but like overall most people are going to be banging their heads against the wall trying to do that you know what I'm saying especially like you said if it's Precision yeah right I Precision is very difficult if you're trying to use that highly motivating toy to teach for the first time right but if you can teach with one kibble now the dog can think they're not in that high state of arousal like you said yeah so now they can think about what you're trying to get them to do and not only that once they eat the kibble you can immediately go to the next one right it's multiple repetitions and with with with toy like you know if you use a ball for everything right or or a tug frisbee whatever you have um a wedge um and you use that maybe the dog you get him into the car oh good boy here's your ball right you give him the ball for getting into their car right well if you're going to expect that dog to work for the ball on the field doing complicated behaviors why would he have more value to work doing complex behaviors when he can just jump into the car jump out of the car and you give him his ball in the first place you've devalued the number one valuable toy so the economy of uh supply of different of a variety of different reinforcers is very important but and so that again it kind of boggles my mind when you would just altogether Cast Away the the opportunity to train with food because you lose so much power and ability to troubleshoot difficult problems or complex behaviors with Precision yep and uh it's the Precision also like like you mentioned before and it's that's why n po uses it I believe is that the motivation is different right it it because if the dog is hunting and hunting is very important for dogs right yeah if the dog is hunting for what will get them their next meal that motivation is coming out of them right right you're not forcing them you're not trying to coers them into doing stuff you're just giving them the opportunity saying here's the food figure out what you have to do and that's why with Napo um using that it makes the dog so much more powerful in my like from what I seen like a lot of people are going to say no it doesn't but it I think it's

when used correctly it creates that very high very high motivation Drive um and for not just for making behaviors happen but for other things yeah I agree so here's the other thing another thing to think about is sorry I'm getting tangled up here um is a lot of people are going to criticize well yeah this might be well good for dogs that need complex behaviors like maybe a sport dog or something like that but my pet dog doesn't need that right well but here's the thing if you want your dog to actively choose to do things that you want him to do existential Food Training is the one of the best ways to arrive at that that result because it's the dog choosing to do things that are advantageous to both you and him and you're not having to bribe him and bait him and prompt him and beg him right like bribery and begging is not dog training it's it's just that it's bribery and begging yep you know and and PE like in my in my experience in dog training as a professional dog trainer the number one complaint that pet owners have with their dogs is that they have to nag their dog they don't want to nag their dog to do behaviors and in the Paradigm or the construct of a nagging dog or an owner nagging its dog the nagging came about as a result of them bribing their dog and the dog no longer said I don't want it so now they have to beg their dog or they have to go to a higher level bribery um and that that became a pattern for that dog in that household right whereas if the dog had learned hey by doing I I discovered this behavior and I got paid and it was it was it was good because and now my existence depends on that or or like and now they're excited about that now life is enjoyable now they wake up they're they're ready to go they want to they want to go to work early they want to show up to the office early right to use that analogy it's so powerful right but it's the same as why I I tell people this all the time how come when you call your dog right they don't come or they look at you and decide whether to come you say come they say couch but when you open that cupboard where their food is all a sudden they're at your feet because the opening of The Cupboard is the recall that's it right but the motivation to do that is what you're giving them right which is food yeah people but U yeah oh also like it I think one thing people might think right away is that you're going to have to do this for the rest of your dog's life true that's a I'm glad you brought that up that's a common misconception but it's not like my dogs my older dogs they get free food what I would call free it's just putting it down and not asking for anything right

right they do that all the time but at when they're young we work for our food because you've set the you've set the precedent when you set it there you can go back to it and it still works for you it's still effective right but if you again we can get into more of these definitions now but if you popon the dog where the dog has only ever experienced the bribery the free food the the the free access to the things that wants and then you don't have that then it gets its world it's its experience is shattered its life is crumbling down around it you've taken it out of maslo 5 the the the Pyramid of hierarchical needs and thrown it down into maslo one and now it's just like now it's just like just rocked yeah that's good yeah what do you think um I think what you brought up about the uh sorry what did you just say what was your point that you just brought up the you don't have to do it for the rest of your life oh yeah um I was going to add to that that yes I don't I mean you don't have to because if you've done that for the first 12 to or however long it takes right to set in that work ethic to and you'll know the dog you'll see the dog change the dog becomes active right the the goal is the active dog once the dog becomes active you don't have to do that if you've done it well it'll stick I should say correct and if you go back to it it never hurts it's like you know it's like the the musician right you learn you play your scales in arpeggios you learn your strum patterns on the guitar your beat your your um patterns on the drums um and you learn those rules but eventually like when you start playing like professional Jazz mu music like jazz musicians they learn the rules so that they can break them jazz music is all about breaking the rules at the appropriate time right yeah but you have to know the rules you but yes you have to know the rules before you can break them and then going back to the basics it never hurts you going back and doing your scales and arpeggios your your drum patterns or or or or strumming patterns it's never like it's people like they're they almost insult themselves thinking why would I do that it doesn't hurt it doesn't take away from what your dog is doing it you know so it never hurts to go back and do the basics yep you know going back and doing a couple weeks of existential food training for a dog that's three four five years old isn't going to turn his life upside down because he has an understanding of okay what do I do in this situation yeah if you've done that before if you haven't it takes like I know with my dog that's what I'm saying other dog yeah but if you haven't it takes if

you want to switch over yes it's going to take you know three four five six days before your dog realizes that that 5:00 P PM 5 AM meal isn't coming and I would say depending on I'm talking about not feed your dog for five or six days I mean that if your dog has already had his all his hundred Kibbles for the day come 5:00 pm where you normally would feed him he's going to act like he hasn't eaten right even though he's had everything until they figure out that that pattern is no longer the same they're going to still act like they're having they're starving when it comes to 5m no matter how much food youve given them and from my experience takes like a week you know depending on how long you've created that expectation of the 5m for a dog who's in a healthy weight range now if they're overweight right which saw saw saw statistic that said most like by age 12 to 16 months of age most dogs in the US are overweight you know and I mean you see most pet dogs like most of them are now bordering like obesity you know because of the free free feeding craze and you know too many treats too many calories not enough exercise you know the couch potato maslo 5 lifestyle too much love Yeah i' like people feel bad for the dog and keep feeding whether it's good for the dog or not now what's what's more loving on the dog like feeding him till he's obese and giving him the risk of hip and elbow dysplasia venial disease you know arthritis joint problems or making him work a little bit so that he's a healthy weight and encouraging active Behavior so that you are on the same page and you're in alignment for what you want him to do and what he wants to do yes it's like it's like why is that even a why is that even a point of contention correct it's interesting very we could keep talking but I think think we've we've covered it I Hon ly like thinking about this topic of existential food I thought okay well this is something that you could really describe it in 5 to 10 minutes but like I think if you really want to be a master of it and do it well like I think we've covered a lot of the really good points um about it the things that are going and hopefully not just for the people who want to learn how to do it but for the people who maybe disagree with it we've shed some light on like why it's valuable maybe opened uh o or or maybe provided a different perspective on why it it can be good and why why it's not abusive why most people think or why it's not as abusive or abusive at all the way people think it is because it's just a misunderstood concept correct if done correctly absolutely again we're we're promoting correctly with everything

there's correct ways to do ways to do it right so yeah whenever we're talking it's about the correct way to do it right and if you have questions hit us up in the comments reach out to us message us um if you don't agree let us know also let us know and Michael will tell you why you're wrong radio silence so yeah I'm looking forward to uh to seeing how people comment and their yeah this will be good and let us know like we have a list of ideas that we would like to continue like we feel like there's a list of we've we've compiled a list of IDE ideas of things that we feel have been maybe underrepresented in conversation um and forums about Training Concepts and theories and methods um if there's something that you're interested in let us know a lot of this like we said we both have our roots in Nao um you know we're we're experienced there and and growing and and looking to to just uh supplement the modern dog training experience for people as they're looking for other ways to to solve problems in their life right whether it's a pet dog a sport dog you know a working dog of some capacity like um you know we're hoping Prov yeah I'm always trying to uh you know answer people's questions and and help out whenever possible yeah it doesn't matter from behaviors to obedience to you know problems anything especially sport stuff what what was that especially sports stuff sports stuff yeah yeah if you guys want any igps especially go to go to Jason oh well we're doing a we have a school so like in wrap here like we've got a couple events coming up we've got our joint gold school that we're co-instructing uh that's you know me coming down to you leaving the blizzard of Utah to come down to Las Vegas excited for some sunnier weather um uh we've got some students we're really excited to work with some of their dogs uh going to be diving deep into napoo applic scent work uh the classical um exercises for Nao clack clack unforce force fetch you know there's too many to name right now um reviewing the theory of silver School making sure that you're a master of the concepts the theoretical language of modern dog training um what what else do you have going on right now and before like anything before we we uh get together for gold in a couple weeks no nothing before then but some other stuff the rest of this year nice hopefully so we'll talk about that later