Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 21: Mathias Dögel

the breeder of the toy tonis and uh i said um yeah i want to have um a male puppy from uh your litter and uh he only make euro number blah blah blah blah he was at one point he was very much in in you know everybody was asking for puppies from him at one time for sure exactly it was around the year 99 2000 and uh at this time it uh it explodes uh in germany everybody won by uh malinois and of course uh nobody um heard about the name matthias dougal yes and so volker he don't care he said uh maybe maybe i have a female for you and um i answered um no i only want a male and this was the reason why i said um no to volker and uh then um i come to my to my camel uh from the kreen speeder it's um he don't breed anymore but uh this time uh it was his sea litter and um i remember very well uh i drive there uh to to watch the puppies and before we go to the canal we uh going to the um to the club um making some training um and then i see there all this malinois dogs uh from from this kennel and from airport hannover and um after this years with german shepherd my my first idea was oh my god what for ugly dogs i love it that's everybody's reaction isn't it so my my belly my belly was like i'm having a big stone and i was thinking oh what am i doing what what am i doing exactly exactly then they make protection and uh i started to to to like it yeah and it was exactly like this it was exactly like this i think a lot of people did that when that that very very similar route me included i always always tried to do it with the german shepherd um i started also with them and one had the bad hips one had the bad back one had a really bad skin problems like really bad but as working qualities they were amazing absolutely amazing dogs but when you go by three dogs and you spend let's say year and a half to two years of each that's six years of of playing gambling and not knowing and but that was long time ago now i think it's i don't know do you think i i think there is better chances especially when you know when to look there's still a risk with the german shepherds but there is a better chance to to get a healthy one today i think better than before or i don't know what do you think yeah i i i agree so um i think um in the in the late 90s and um until 2005 2010

um you have the much bigger chance to get a good malinois for for uh the igp sport than a german shepherd um but i i think in in the last 10 years it changed a little bit so um a lot of german shepherd readers um see okay we must take care uh for sure first about health second about drive and uh third also about nurse and yeah and and today today i don't know how it is in in the states but um here in in europe um i think you have at the moment the bigger chance to get a good german shepherd than a malinois mm-hmm yeah i know what you mean especially at least in my opinion the the temperament of the malinois starts to it's changing to more uh i i don't want to say weaker type of dogs but kind of i don't even know what word to use but it's more of a temperament problem than the health problem right you know uh what what was uh what was um um the reason why the malinois was so successful um in the in the late 90s and early 2000 um i i think um of course healthy and um second a good drive good temperament and um yeah also good good good good nerves for for for the sports and um more stable more stable more stable exactly and i think the the biggest problem for the breeder is um to to see the difference between drive and nerves and um you know how it is uh if you wanna if you wanna be um a training champion of course this is not so important but if you wanna be successful on competition you need a stable dog of course you know how it works you're driving thousand kilometer to to the championship that your dog um is under much stress because a new environment training all the time um you go into the stadium a lot of people um new helper um of course you need you need a dog who who can handle this yeah yeah yeah and it's uh and and because it's not stable it's not like there is a one training problem that you say i can fix this it can pop up in any in any place during the competition just just because of of you know the temperament and the character it's a it's very true and hopefully i mean we're paying attention i think we we it became popular very popular breed um so we we almost kind of maybe and maybe not but almost need to go through that kind of roller coaster that the german shepherd dog went to and i think we're in this peak that everybody wants a malinois because if you don't have a malinois you're not a good trainer or or something like this you know and that's uh that's a disadvantage for the we we want people to train we want to do the sports but yeah with with the the breeding selection is very interesting how

how it's going tell me with the i i really wanna i mean we're gonna go all over the place but i i definitely want to hear how how working dog how the the whole idea how did that came to you because it's so brilliant and i know i don't know at the time i don't know if in europe people knew but we had this and it still exists the pedigree database and like few different things at the time when the internet first started to come in and and those were the places to go but then you you took it to a totally different level so i really very curious to hear how how this whole happened because i'm sure there was a lot of roadblocks and it wasn't just a smooth try to get where you did yeah it started um 2003 and it was uh at the beginning only uh the idea about um a small database for um belgian shepherds and this uh with with pedigrees and results so that the idea to to um combine um the result lists um from the competitions with um the pedigree and a picture of the dog and some information like um yeah name uh right right yeah everything like this this this was the start and um how many people how what is kind of like just couple of people that you had going with it or was it just you doing it how how did um at the beginning it was um a friend um he helped me a little bit uh with uh the development it was a small coding so um i remember for the first version i i give him 300 euro for his support yes yes so it's it's nothing but um okay it was a small version and um of course um i i learned programming development rep development um when i was young but uh then with 21 22 i i i stopped it so i'm i know what happened of course uh but but i'm not a developer yeah and um in this time um this guy helped me and we bring up this working dog website to life at the beginning only with molly noise those results and everything like this and um after i think six months um i learned i met the first people who said oh we like this idea we we collected a lot of data in our excel files and then they started to to help me and yes this was the beginning without any community without any videos without all these functionalities you see today yeah and um in 2005 i exit make exit to my job um i was um something like an account manager for for um digitalization in the company here in leipzig and i decided um i want to be my own boss uh since i'm a child um and i decided to to yeah to found my my own enterprise so my own um startup and um it was at home

uh in my working room uh in my working room and after six months um i started with selling software and make customization for this on small medium companies and after six months um it grows i was successful with it it and i go to uh i rent the office and i hired the first employee and um yeah so with with this business i i grow until 2007 and um working dog was growing also but um the program was exactly the same like 2003 i make some bug fixes here and some small uh functionalities there but but nothing big but my problem was that um 2007 i i must spend something like uh three or four thousand euro every month for the server um and um for the hosting and um i i paid this only um with my income from uh my software company so and um then i was at the point where i say okay i i spent every month something like three four five thousand euro and with advertisement i only um get about 800 or 900 euro it was yes yes yes yeah and um then comes the point where i was thinking oh shit um it's a hobby but now it starts to be really inexpensive for you and uh then there was a funny situation because uh one of my my first um sponsors of advertisement partners yeah yeah company here in germany um called belcando um and um i i met this marketing guy uh one day uh and uh he said uh to me um hey come on it's a good idea and i see it's uh too much for you so we give you some money and we take care about it with you in the future and uh bring it uh make it big so but they wanted to be like like partners in a way or yeah they wanna wanna be partner or maybe uh it was more that uh they wanna buy it okay okay they wanna buy it and um but for sure they they need me to um help them bring making it uh bigger and um okay okay why not so what we are talking about and um he said to me 80 000 euro and i was in shock because at this time so much money for me for yes the website and they were smart people i think they they saw they saw it yeah yeah exactly um and for me in this situation it was so much money uh and i was really thinking about it but at the end um people people who know me know um money is not uh in my list on number one for sure not so it's it's more

about um i want to make things big i want to see them grow i want to develop things this is no you're like the i mean like the businessman part i don't know if it all happened through as you were going with working dog but you're really good at it i mean yeah this is this is what i like and um so i said no to him and um after after this conversation um i i decided um to hire a developer um this was my first developer in my company and uh then we start to make working dog professional yeah and um we spent about one year of work and at the end um we bring up the new version and then in 2008 i think it was um we released the premium account when did the video start i think it was around the same time no yes exactly um the video because that was a game changer a lot a lot of people won't kill me at this time because böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle It was necessary. Yes, for sure. That's more of a, that's kind of typical of how people in Europe would think that way. Like in the States, it's a, yeah, if you have passion and you're putting your time and you're charging for your effort, everybody seems to be understanding it different than how people in Europe are about it. Yeah, exactly. In 2008, people in Europe don't understand why to pay a monthly fee for data.

So, and in the States at this time, LinkedIn started and Facebook and all this company grow. And yes, this was, this was completely a new way to make business in the internet because before everybody know it's only about advertisement. Yeah, very much similar to like the online schools and stuff. That's how I started, you know, the same, the same way. And I remember actually at one point we did some link exchanges and stuff when, when you still had to, you know, promote it and everything. That was a, yeah, a long time ago. So now it's not even only IGP. Obviously we are covering all working dog sports, but what else is there? Cause I like on my end, what I spend most of my time, of course, is IGP and all the ring sports and stuff like that. But I know that there is a lot more going on. What else do you have? So we, we have all the sports you, you find out there on our website. And the, the, the, the most biggest community for sure is agility. Wow. And yeah, not surprising, right? It's at the moment, it's, it's one of the biggest, the biggest parts in sport. And yeah, you, you know, I'm, I'm IGP man too, since I'm a child and I know both sports very well. And, um, I always asking myself, um, what's, what's the difference? Why is one, one sport so successful and the other sport has, um, really a hard time to grow or to exist. And for sure you have, um, the, the, the situation in the world changed. And, um, a lot of people ask today, why must a dog bite a human being? Yeah. Yeah. Like this, this is exactly in this stupid way they ask it. And, um, yes, agility, you, you, um, earn success much more faster. Um, I don't, I don't mean, um, you are faster in, in the world success or on the big competitions. For sure it's the same hard way like in IGP. And people competing in this sport and on the, on the top places are high professional, uh, exactly like we did. Oh yeah. So it's a way of life at this point. There is nothing. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's, it's totally similar, but you know how it is, um, to do IGP sport. Uh, you need the right dog. So it's, it's not possible with a labrador in this way. It's not possible with a golden red river, but you can, you can have a little bit of success in agility with this kind of breeds. And, um, yes, the IGP sport is also very complex. Uh, you, you don't have only one exercise. You have three. And to, to build on that more agility is, there is still judges discretion, but it's way more, uh, unbiased, much more fair. The competition done.

Like the, the way a judge in IGP can influence a certain competition by their own interpretation is so, uh, uh, dramatically different than how, how much agility judge can change things and dictate. Right. It's a, it's a, it's a little bit, uh, and I think, um, yeah, it's part of our sport, the IGP sport, that it, it's a difficult tool to, to, for everybody to one day become more on the same page. No matter how much judges, um, you know, camps and how much trying to come to the same vision, ultimately still left to that judge on that day on the field too. And it's hard because you're a human being and you have a hundred dogs to judge and all of a sudden your brain just kind of go somewhere. Not necessarily that you're purposefully screwing up some competitor. It's just human nature. And, um, so that's a big, big, big advantage of agility. And again, I know, I mean, I've done some in the early nineties myself, and I know there is still room for the judge, but it's very different compared to IGP. Our sport is almost like the, you know, how, how any priest can interpret the Bible, what actually says when it says something else. And it's kind of like how IGP judges can play with the rules. Another one, it's a, yeah, this is a very true, um, all, all breeds are welcome. Um, and you still need a team, but you're not like, if you, if you want to go and do IGP and have success, you need, you need a good helper. You cannot not have a good helper. And that means, at least in the States, and now I think it's becoming more and more normal in Europe. People used to think, oh, I'm not driving hour and a half because it's right next to the, my next street is the dog club. But I think now people in Europe also understand the importance of a good team and good helper and the support and the coaching. And they're much more willing now to spend the time and to travel to, to accomplish it. You can do a lot on your own. For sure. In IGP, you can, you can also do it. But, uh, at the end, IGP has, has, um, a kind of complex city. It's, it's in, in, in, in the situation that you have different drives working, uh, together makes it so complex. So when, when, when, when I see the good people from, from, um, the obedience, of course, they make only obedience. Yeah. And, uh, the, the, the situation in our sport is, you, you know, it, when you start with the dog in the protection, it changed something in the dog. And, and, and, and you must take care, um, to, um, explain the, the dog that, um, he don't switch in the drives. This is, this is, this makes it very, very hard.

And, uh, I, uh, I need a lot of years to understand this. Of yours dances. Of yours dances. more experience, you know, more solutions for some problem. And you see a lot of good older dog hand handlers and they make great sport because they have a lot of experience. Yeah, that's true. And on the other side, so I make I make dog sport now since 25 years, something about this and I'm still learning. I'm still learning and I'm really I'm really laughing always when I see in our sport the one hit wonders, some people who win a competition with the first dog, first time they are successful. And then after this competition, you see them making seminars. Yes. And this is for me such a funny situation because they have one dog and with one training method and maybe a good trainer behind. And with this situation, they were successful. And when they go to a seminar, there are ten different dogs with ten different problems and ten different things to handle. And they have no idea how to do it. Yeah, this is a yeah, that's that's IGP for sure. And somehow I think it's because the need I don't know why. like I don't actually I also wonder about this quite a bit sometimes. What makes people just jump on that train? It's like, oh, I'm going to go to the seminar because this person and it's not that hard to see. especially talking about working dog coming. Just go on working dog. Put the name of the person and in room everything shows up. Do you want to learn from this person or do you want to learn from this person? Like I think if we go to a doctor or something else we we humans make a little bit smarter choices. And when it comes to dog training I think most I and I don't it's one thing when you don't understand the sport but because you don't understand the sport it's still not an excuse to just kind of say, okay, I'm going to follow this person because he's really good without really checking if he is really or she is really good. It's a it's a something with our sport that it happens a lot. They have yeah the one hit wonders is a good good way and and another big problem is the what we call it in in in the states seminar hoppers you know kind of like you have the people that hop at the bars Saturday night you you have a whole community of dog trainers that they just no matter who is in town let's go and and let's change everything until the next seminar comes and let's change everything again and five years later now you're getting your second dog and you're not learning you're still doing exactly the same pattern that didn't bring you any success and it's so illogical to me and especially really like when you have the data it's it's one thing if we cannot

check accomplishments credentials and then okay yeah that's what you have but but when that's possible yeah it's interesting interesting way of thinking but the sport is definitely not easy sport it's not for everybody and I don't know like the we will get to this I want to talk about FCI and DMC and all just just like all those governing organizations trying to make IGP sport for everybody it's not easy and I and I think no matter how we we you know certain people keep changing the rules and keep making it more supposedly more trainer friendly and more for everybody I think even in the 90s it was still friendly sport you just cannot you know you you still could go as far as you could go and then there is a different level that not everybody can get to which is I think it's totally okay just like when we look at a dog that competes some dogs will get good scores and some will get very good scores and very few get excellent it's not like we all want excellent but it's not meant to be for this yes and I think it's the same with the training no like you everybody is not capable to be an excellent trainer and it's not that it's a bad thing or a good thing it's just but I think it hurts the sport of washing it down and you know changing the rules with the intention to make it more popular what do you think about this? the sport must develop and if you don't develop you are not ready for for the future and you are not ready for the next step and you will not get new people into the sport at the end I think everybody must understand that our sport is very special in the way that is difficult because you have to learn this three things tracking obedience and protection and it's like it's these are three sports in one yes and almost three different dogs three different styles of training exactly exactly it's so hard to combine these three exercises in three excellent exercises this is the biggest problem you know you see it at the Satset competition there was a female making 98 points in obedience it was so wonderful I really really like it but then in the long attack in protection she runs away and of course then you have a German shepherd you can't even look at him in the obedience he was walking like a sheep but in protection it was brutal it was strong it was dominant and this is I think also one

reason why this Satset competition was successful because these dogs you never see on the world championship they will not reach this goal because when they start with their first exam a qualification to maybe the nationals and try to get from the nationals to the world championship with this dog you will never have success and so nobody can see this and this is what we did at the Satset competition we give these people something like a platform to show and this makes it very very special and was there a qualification or how did that no right it was no qualification you need an IGP 2 and then you go there and make your IGP 3 and this is I think the reason why it was so successful because the normal the normal one can start there on a very high competition level with the high professional and everything there everything there was like one of the best organized world championships we have the best people in tracking making nice tracks perfect organization there with draw with high qualified judge we make it in the stadium it was everything perfect like a big big big competition and this people who was never on a world championship or something like say wow what is this here everything is so nice organized and on top of that you were able to draw some of the best of the best from quite a few countries it wasn't just you know everybody that pay attention knows that so can you at least for Americans because a lot of us here it's not the FCI so tell tell my listeners what Satsit really is so first Satsit is a title by the FCI and it's a working champion title so it means if you go to a competition what is saved by the FCI for the Satsit title you can get the Satsit card for first or second place for the best from your breed and if you collect two of the Satsit titles and your dog has a minimum a very good international show exterior then you send this to your club to your FCI club and you can get the title international working champion and in the moment in the world it's not so well known most people don't know it in Czech Republic this Satsit competition exists since years and it's very very popular a lot of successful dog

handlers competed there and one year later they are getting world champion at the FCI or FNBB so it's a very famous competition there in Czech I was there first time last year that's what made you do that right yes I would make the first place there and for me it was yeah it was really a wonderful competition and I was thinking okay I must bring it to Germany and yeah after this I decided and it was successful we we had the idea about the Golden League yes tell me about this one because that's a very that that I mean it's already a very good progression of where it's going so at the moment you have three Czatzit competitions in the Golden League first of course it's the Czatzit in Czech Republic in Dobrys Brauns Petra in Germany and Poland it's this Metbox competition what the name in the last years and this three competitions belong to the Golden League and there is a pointing system behind and for the first ten places you got points it's a little bit like in the Formula One yeah yeah yeah and at the end you collect your points and when the year is over this guy or this girl with the most points win the Golden League and okay this is this is the first year we started it right now of course it's not everything finished right now so it's just in the beginning but I think it could have a big future I agree I agree 100% I mean it's already created so much interest because it is within FCI regulations so you are playing the IGP by the FCI rulebook correct yes it's correct absolutely the reason I'm thinking is I just somehow hope that we like the sport community can eventually do something about it and stop the some of the changes that are put on us without without ever even consulting the people that actually play in the sport it's just all of a sudden some two people decided okay well we will change the rules and from tomorrow this is what we do and I think that you know people that are spending so much time years in the sport we should have some kind of allow for some kind of input and not always be dictated because some of the rule changes are really just to me at least don't make much sense what do you think with that it's a big thing here in Europe and especially in Germany in the in the in the the normal people the normal people are influenced by

more and more by people that don't have the idea about the sport don't speak the truth about training a dog and it's something like our the human being getting more and more away from the reality in this part because of course it's nice to hear famous people in television or in social media speaking about that you can everything do in a positive way with the animal yes the way we say it in the states everything is rainbows and unicorns and they believe it they really believe it and it's the idea himself is so nice so it's not about that you or me are trusting to make pain on our dogs for sure not we are interested to make clear situation black and white everything what's necessary to that the dog learns very fast what are the rules and of course it's an animal and I feel sometimes like here in Germany this famous people want that every dog must wear a harness and every dog can't sleep in the kennel he must sleep in your bed and it makes me very sad when I hear this and it's frustrating because it has gone so far that it's almost and I hope I'm wrong but it's almost impossible to try to bring some sense back to everybody there is a whole new generation of people that do some dog training that are very confused right now in Europe because of that yeah and we must understand why it is like this and of course it's because this sells very good and it's a business thing so these people or the one guy here in Germany for example who make a lot of stress against the Schutzen community he earns his money that people come into his schools and pay for every hour of training what you take in the club for the whole year that's the difference yes and I'm a businessman and I understand how it works and of course for him it makes totally sense to explain to the people don't go to this bad clubs of the German Shepherd or of whatever of the DVG don't go there people are bad to their dogs come to my dog training school and you will learn how to teach a dog in only the positive way dog training is 100% market and even with all the studies that they're done and all the animal veterinary behaviorists and all this they have hijacked the dog training and all of a sudden they have announced themselves that they

are the people that know what dog training is and how it should be done and most of them have not even trained dogs they're just scientists they don't know how to train dogs it's not like you can have a very good doctor that doesn't mean that that doctor is a good parent with their kids it's just a very good doctor being a parent it's a different skill set and it's the same with dog training but somehow I don't know why I'm sure it's because it's in the states and people here are a little bit more not so willingly following what somebody on top says of the government or whatever we are a little more like why you know and in Europe some like in the 2000s in the early 2000s when that whole movement starts to creep in everybody used to think that oh well they're just talking we're going to still be able to do what we do and nobody stand up at the time which it could have been easier to battle this you know you know what what what you need for it you need good connection you need a lobby and you know you must know how to speak with the right people and I still know a time it's more than 10 years ago that the dog community in Germany the breeding clubs or the VDH organization under the FCI has always an ear in the ministry and has always an ear in the government and this time is over these people nobody cares of them and in the government they don't listen to these people and why they don't listen because these people don't do their job in the last 10-15 years they take the time to save maybe their position their position exactly that's exactly what it was and there is no idea what to do for making a lobby in the government for what we do and this is the difference to this people from the other side they exactly do this and in today's age it makes it so difficult because everybody is so quick to browse and scroll and swipe and nobody uses their brain anymore so when you're presented with this very quick are you a good or a bad person are you using corrections or are you not and you have no time to even explain and then that whole momentum goes and I think this is where the politicians get all trapped because on the surface when it's presented so nice it hits that soft spot on everybody's heart of course I'm a good person and nobody takes the time to really understand what we are doing and why and it's a very very difficult battle but I think in the states we we learned from what was happening in Europe and

somehow at least still for now we are much more organized when in some state in some city they say oh we're gonna ban this and we're gonna make this and a lot of trainers will actually show up at the meetings and say no no we you have no reason and no ground to do this this is this is this is one of the of the main things what brings me to decide go out of this organizations and do something new completely on my own with my people and in our way we are thinking with sports people so when we do the competition here the first time we do so much different we go out and make completely the entry to the stadium for free everybody can come free entry you don't have to pay and I make so much advertisement here in the local towns and I say hey we have their stores come with your golden red river or whatever you have you can buy dog food you can buy this this and this and the people come and they enjoy it and they see the sports and we have the television and we have the interviews you had the news the people there were people actually watching it was beautiful and Ivan listen what happened it was so funny for me because we also make the live stream completely free you can you wear for free and listen and then you know we have Bart yes of course that was super choice too yes and but but after some days he said yes to me he realized what does it mean for him and he called me and said oh Matthias what what I did I must stand up one o'clock in the night and I must ! this is not normal and I said yes sure but now I tell everybody that you will do it yes and now so much people from my company come to me after this competition and said to me hey Matthias I'm working since 10 years for you okay I'm a software developer I don't understand anything about the sport but I watched the live stream and now because of this guy who speaks all the time I understand what's important for you no no Bart was an excellent choice for this I think I mean I don't know even how that idea came to you but I'm assuming from back in time with dancers with Marlino when he did such an awesome job with this this is very smart way to approach it to get people curious about what we do and give them enough understanding to where they can be involved in it it let me watch the next dog and let me see if I'm getting it and little by little you're making them interested in what we do that was a cool idea this is exactly what brings us in the last 20 years in this situation and look when I started in dog sport it was like okay I have a German shepherd now and the German shepherd

need to be trained so I go to the local club I take my bicycle and drive to the local club and they are the people that was me in Belgium the same way so and this is how we started and then what happened today if people own the dog they don't go to the club they go to the dog school they pay one time a week for one hour 50 or 100 bucks and then they make their training and then they go home and that's it yeah so and the the the clubs they closed yes there I did I did the same I did the same I'm training with with the same 10 people since 15 years and every month somebody knocked at my door and said can I come for training and what I say no because I need my time my people need their time so I have so many good people going on big competitions in my small group we can't take new people to our club in this situation I know that I am also responsible for this problem we have today I know it and we must find new ways wow you just made me think I mean I feel now the same way because I I basically I stopped even having a dog club I don't know at least it's been at least 15 years since I had a club with you know you are professional in what you do and for me it's the same and you know it don't work every week we have one new guy you must explain him the basics right it's not working for for for this level we want to compete with our dogs ! on the other side it's okay but I felt that I must do something to find a new way getting new people into our system and the Tzatzit competition have so many ideas about this thinking and one idea was give the live stream out have somebody like Bart explaining what this guy is doing there on the green that somebody who never see it who never understand it why he's getting for this beautiful exercise only a good it was perfect you know it no no again that was brilliant and I know it's not stopping there which makes it even more exciting that was something we talked when you said that you listened to my podcast with Yanni I think we talked about this we have to have a commentator we have to have people that explain and educate and it's like hey this is what you're watching just like with any other sport you have a that's how you get people hooked into that's how it's a very normal and it's not that you have to trick people you just make them understand a little bit more about a sport and then some people will be that's not for me but then some people will oh hold on

this is interesting already how about I know now the I don't even maybe we have to back up a little bit but I know you and Helmut Reiser made now there is a Malino club in the RSV 2000 which is very cool as well tell me a little more how that happened and how so you know I'm a DMC member since 20 years and I was so many years active there and we had a great time but at one moment my idea about how to handle the people how to make the sport how to judge and how to make selection in breeding my idea about it was different to a lot of other people there in this club and at the end there was two parts split which is okay sometimes that's just what needs to happen it's a normal progression absolutely absolutely and of course there was the fight about how to go on and we try to bring our ideas there and the other side try to save the old ideas and in these times where this big stress starts Helmut called me and said hey Matthias why do you spend your energy into this fight yes because I love my club I love my breed I want to make things better yeah but then come to us there you have three hands and you can breed the Malinois in our club and my answer was how many bottles of wine you drink this evening but but Helmut I mean he he's already been through that same process he knows exactly where you were he's been through this struggle so much exactly and for me this idea was it was so crazy to bring this together that I said Helmut yeah I think about it but be honest at the beginning for me it was like a joke yeah yeah so but then I was thinking more and more about it and we have a first meeting it's over much more than one year ago and with the board with the members of the board from the RSV and everybody there was like what he want here but some people were open and Helmut said yeah we must stay together we have only this one sport it's important we are in the same boat everything like this it was a really good discussion and at the end I said to them okay hey people I think it could work because I like your ideas

about breeding a working dog about making sport what and I like your idea what's necessary to keep on running but I tell you first I want to save my club and if this don't work we can do it so I was absolutely clear about this from the beginning and at the end it don't work in my old club in the DMC and so I decided I must leave this house I must build a new house for me where I can live and where I have the space what is necessary for me to expand and grow and bring new ideas to the world yes and I found this in this club so I'm really happy about this and I'm sure if the situation in the DMC where we are positive for our fight and we win the fight then it will not be the same like today because you still maybe you win the fight but you still have the old infrastructure and sometimes when you do something completely new you must start from zero you have to shut one door to open the next one yes it's disruption and I compare it a little bit with big magazine newspaper companies I have a lot of business with these companies 15 years ago and the companies who understand that paper is dying and will not exist in the same way like in the last 40 years or 50 years they are still here they are still here exactly so I'm a little bit happy about the situation how it works of course it was a real hard time not only for me also for the people going with me but at the end it was the right yeah yeah yeah is the I have I'm sure I have talked about this with Helmut but I don't like RSV2000 they they don't necessarily follow the FCI rulebook right there are two ways in the RSV2000 you have you have the competition with the Schutztund it's outside the FCI rulebook and you have the competition following the FCI because there is also they can send the team to FCI yes yes and of course the Zatsit competition is under the FCI rulebook so it means no hit with the stick and all this yeah but the RSV2000 Schutztund do they still use the stick or no yes they do good very good yes because a lot of people don't know it the stick hit is not forbidden in Germany and it wasn't it wasn't pushed by any activists or anything no it was it was not it was only the point that

when they changed some things in the law one year ago there was something like you don't have to make pain on the dog that's all and the stick don't make pain on the dog but of course the thinking was we don't want go into discussion about it so we take it away before it goes official this was the thinking so for me I know how important in so much situation the stick hit is for the working dog breed and it's a pity that we lose it but I also understand the other side I'm not 100% sure about it because at the end for me it's always this big idea about that we are going one step back after another always one step back we take away this we take away this we take away that and they are little they are very smart progression to where it's like oh we take a little something and okay well we're still okay then we take a little something we're still okay and then you realize 10 years later the game is not the same anymore yeah and the first people discuss about the long attack right right point they say look it's so fast it's so dangerous so much could happen but I tell you I tell you I have this working dog over 300 competitions a year over 300 competitions we're making movies and there are much more accidents in agility yes than in IGP dog sports much more and this is the situation yeah very excellent point yeah agility is not an easy sport on the dog that's for sure you know this is a lot for the dogs it's really a lot what do you think I mean I know I know everywhere in Europe people are sport people are starting to wake up a little bit and starting to you know in different ways and in different groups trying to bring back a little more sense and educate and just like what you did with the Sassit and I think it's very important that we continue to educate and get young people in without sacrificing and washing down the program that we play because if we I cannot imagine what kind of dogs we will have if we are not able to select and breed and again like people that know what they're selecting and breeding it doesn't matter how the rules change but anybody that is from generation after and generation after they're starting to see a different picture and they are starting to losing what really a really good dog is about it's like you know like you have martial arts and you have it's very much the same I think with the dog sport protection dog sports

you know like not every dog is supposed to do protection dog sports it doesn't matter if it's a Mali nor German shepherd it's still not for everybody but the ones that like it the ones that are selected to like it they don't just like ! and they're like please let me bite the sleeve please hit me with the stick let's play that game that I love right and that's gonna change if we don't do anything about it and also I think what's gonna change is training I think when we have this when we bring the dog a little bit more in a dominant mindset a little bit more of like hey I'm standing my ground it's a very different touch very different skill of training and it doesn't mean that we have to beat up dogs and kick them and do that it just we have grown up this was 30 years ago we are evolving we are becoming so much better in dog training but to compare training a dog that does dancing or fly ball or agility yes it's very there are similarities but it's a different mindset for IGP and it's like I think the like I really really believe this the training evolves because we learn how to manage and how to work with the dog when the dog is so pumped up and so whatever and we're not squashing them we're not making them be afraid we're just working together and that's gonna go away if we don't do anything about I know we have now in next week we have our all breed world national championship it will be the very first one that I'm gonna watch without stick hits and the dogs that are in the competition even though they don't get stick hits they will get affected by the presentation because they have experienced that so we can still kind of test them if we start training dogs without stick hits from young puppies they will learn that there is nothing it's gonna they will never get into that mindset of hey I'm standing my ground what are you gonna do that's not gonna be it will become yeah I mean the way agility dog thinks it wouldn't be that much different than how protection IGP will be for maybe another generation of dogs it's hard to say what kind of dogs we will have in 10 years but of course we must protect this kind of dogs we want stable in nerves with a lot of courage and dominant and brave and all this so I'm thinking it's more and more about the breeder to see the real dog and you know it's because of the good training in the last years it's more and more difficult

to see the real dog to separate them yep yes it's more and more difficult and of course the dog wins the competition is very often not the dog who is good for the breeding I think one of the best dogs I ever breed I finished with him after IGP 1 last year I I said I don't want it I don't want it this this dog has too much from everything and I make within the IGP 1 and it was like I started training preparing for the exam on Sunday I go in hard core training on Friday with tracking obedience protection then next day Saturday again two times tracking in the morning then at lunch he has a mating and in the afternoon I make two times obedience and in the evening two times protection and then he was ready that I pass the IGP 1 with him on Sunday and I love this dog but this dog is not for competition it's not for competition and so I decided okay he will always be on my side but for sure I will not bring him to competition because it's but do you consider him for breeding ! because sometimes there is dogs that don't make competition but they bring something to the genetics for the breeding right? He brings wonderful puppies that's the point to finish this part with the competition we want to make the three competitions stable it will be every time at the same place every time with the same organization team this will make it I think from year to year much more professional it's a little bit like when you go for a racing when you go to the Nürburgring every time the same you know it's Monte Carlo yes exactly and so this this is the decision of the members of the board from the Golden League so who are they tell me tell me about how who are the people in that right now there is Bogdan he's from Poland he's the owner of Medbox it's a trailer company for trailers and it's Jada this is the guy who is the founder of the Zatsit in Dobrys and he's also the guy who has an idea about the Golden League it was his dream over years and now after I started with him and Bogdan decided to go with him he said okay now it's the point we start with the Golden League and the idea for the future is that there are more Zatsit competition and we thinking about a place like Netherlands because you have something

in the West for Belgium for the Holland and for the Danish people there is a big dog community in there for sure yes and we also thinking about something like in the north of Italy that you have the Spanish people people from Austria people from Switzerland and on the right side in the east Slovenia yeah yeah yeah yeah and all this yes and but one step after another I learned in my life before you are going to grow the ground must be completely stable and so this year we will do everything to make the ground stable and then next year we will see I make one more day next year on the competition that we are able to handle so is there going to be another one this year or no no no this year the three and next year we are not sure we must see but at the moment we only want the three and after this year is finished then we we will decide and we will speak if the time is right is ready for maybe one now how many malino or Belgian shepherd clubs are in Germany now you have the DMC DKBS BSD the Belgian shepherd club Berlin and now the RSV so there are five five so how do you work out qualification and like going to FCI or FMBB or are all clubs eligible to do or some are not no in the last in the last 30 years there was one special thing only the DMC was allowed to make competition and exams all the other clubs are not allowed to do exams and IGP sport in this way but did they want or they didn't really have interest to do some people have interest and they use the club for breeding and for sport they go to maybe DVG or somebody else and now the situation with RSV is a game changer because now you have the outlet and now it's the DMC who can make exams and it's RSV who can make exams for the Malinois and the ZATZ competition is also for the RSV members the qualification to the German championship VDH and there you can when you are under the first five you go to the FCI world championship okay we have discussion with the members of the board from the FCI working dock commission and they said we can think about when we have one more competition that the winner of the golden league gets a wild card to the FCI world championship so it's an interesting idea but we must see at the end

of course the FCI title or the FNB title or the WUSV title this is what the people want to get of course they have a big history and with the Golden League it's someone new on the field in the game and I think the future will show which title is most interesting and of course my room is full of this metal things here it's like you we have tons of this I don't go to competition for this I don't go to competition to bring this to my home because I have enough for this I go to competition because I want to have fun and I want to feel respect to my work to my dog to my people surrounding me and this is important for me and for this I don't want to go hundreds or thousands of kilometers to compete on a green field without nothing I don't want to go to compete in front of a judge who is like bad bad bad bad bad right to the point that it doesn't it doesn't even make sense you cannot even like what are we doing yeah so let's let's talk about this judging point because for us at the competition it was very important very important and I never had a competition before as an organizer where I have so much discussion and Zoom meetings with the judges of the upcoming competition and it was speaking about the philosophy how to judge the dogs and how in what new idea the judges speak to the dog handlers and the main point is so I'm a judge since 2015 something like this and of course I'm coming from a system what goes really deep in the details and I like this because at the beginning it was like a big challenge who sees more mistakes who have the better eyes who can identify all the little helps and this was the challenge in the last years but you see exactly this at the competitions where the judge only think about what is wrong and don't think about what is good and we we have a problem in our rule book and the problem is that there is only the excellent the very good the good and you know the sufficient insufficient

insufficient and the biggest problem is that insufficient and sufficient there is one missing in my thinking when you go judging like this because if you have an exercise it's very easy to bring this exercise in a low very good or in a good only because of some small things but then you have the dog who is not well trained the normal dog and the exercise with this dog is not really nice but he did it he did the exercise so you know the difference now between this dog and and your well done exercise with hard judging is one point and this is what we see every time on this big competition 90% of the people are between 80 and 89 points and then you have only a few in the area 91 92 and then finished nobody was excellent and I think this is wrong yeah this is this is not this is not the idea about our sport you know like there was I mean still it's like that when you have in one way you're thinking I'm thinking okay well we have two judges or we have four judges on the field it should be good right yes exactly and now what happens the judges compete against each other who sees more and who is and and you just abuse the person and the dog that's showing because of the competition between the judges and even even with that we know we know every FNBB you will have four judges and the supervisor give collectively a wrong score to the right person in their mind it's a it's a problem it starts at the philosophy of the judges and the idea we had on the competition was about that we say at this competition we have people who are top sportsmen they competing all world championship they are excellent trained dog and on the other side we have their people who fight for the good right and in this area you must find a fair way and if you see the performance of Knut at the competition of Knut Fuchs the protection it was great it was a great protection I really love it and of course why not to give high points for this I tell you I can go there and I can judge this protection to 95 it's possible for me I find the right words for sure to make 95 points and everybody in the stadium will say aha

oh yes he's a professional he see all the small details but for what it it was it was a great experience to see this performance yes and for sure this one of the world best performance must be in the excellent this is going back to the difference between judging agility and judging IGP somehow what needs to happen and probably will never happen but it's just a dream of mine and I'm sure it's not just me to be able to go in or maybe it's not even supposed to be this way maybe it's really how the sport is to where we can go to one competition with one judge and the judge is like yeah this is an excellent performance and then the other one puts you on 89 category for very similar performance and as a trainer especially if you are new at it you get really confused like it's like okay do I change my training now do I change the dog like where where am I standing Ivan did you remember when the discussion and the rules about the position of the hand in the basic position starts oh yeah oh yeah so it was it was like I was asking myself a good judge see when the dog handler use his hand to help the dog a good judge see it you don't need four judges on the field one judge is enough but he must see what happen and he has to have the courage to actually point it out which is a problem too and then the first people started to say okay the hand must be at the body and for some people it looks so strange because they are small the dog is tall and then he takes a hand behind and they always this and I was thinking really this is the reason why people don't understand anymore our competition and our sport exactly this is the reason keep it a little bit more natural we are not robot when we are talking about judges and judging do you have any judges that you really appreciate how they judge as far as I wouldn't say necessarily knowledge but just being very sincere in ethical when they go on the field they're not oh well this is the person that I train with or this is the person you know I have some business with but who comes to mind there are a lot a lot of judges in the world I really like it will be a long list and then maybe I forget somebody and I will be sad about this so I don't tell names but I think there are a lot of young judges and when you see at the competition all three judges are not well known as judges of course they are well known as dog handlers yeah but not well known as judges and this was one of the reasons for me to decide

to take them and I also have in mind for the judges next year who could it be I don't speak with these people right now but it's exactly the same people will say okay he's a judge I never heard about it yes you see in the way they speak with the dog handlers on the field this was so practical it was so full of respect because they know exactly they can relate to it it's like even even when you see a good dog and training and something happens and and you know it from your your heart it's like man it sucks for this person right now because I know you know and that's the kind of people we want because judges are man judges are so important for our sport so important yeah because ultimately it's not even the breeders it's the judges that can guide everybody and educate and say where we are going and when when that is not there it's very easy for everybody to get lost yes and this this emotions helps us to make our sport famous exactly this emotions it's it's a little bit you have you have the chance in competition like this to write something like history in the point that there are people like we work the girl we speak about she with this beautiful obedience 98 and then she come to protection and she fail this is this is like this is like a story written down from a story writer or that rollercoaster of IGP yes exactly exactly the same with Knud and me we we have the same group so when we make the draw he come to me and said Matthias could it be that we are together and I said oh no please not really I was I was really angry about the fact that I must compete with him in the same group and he was laughing and was saying oh yeah this will be interesting and so it was on a high level he make a great performance my dog make a great performance and it was quite yes and you have the competition and then you have the friendship the camaraderie the respect for each other and everybody sees it and this is how we need to present the sport to the new people that's exactly what we need to keep doing yeah we must think about what is necessary and for me make a good organization then you will have a nice atmosphere have good helper who are fair and absolutely clear to the dog avoiding accidents and then good judges with a very emotional speak to the handlers and when you bring this together for sure it will be a nice competition and people go home and say

oh I had a good time I had such a good time yes and then and then after after this weekend every day every day I must answer on messages in Facebook email and whatsapp people asking me what will be the date next year helpers from all over the world write me what I must do to be helper on this competition and this gives me so much because it was a proof that it is still possible that's the point it is still possible and I mean one of the good things is also for the people that listening that are not part of the FCI world such as United States or other countries they're still welcome to show they're not isolated and that's also you know a big deal just about as you start to think man the sport is dying maybe we start to realize hey we can do something about it we just have to do something about it we cannot sit back and that's kind of what you are doing believe me sometimes it's I can't hear it anymore because there is some voice everywhere where people say the sport is dying we're getting less more and more and I tell those people yeah a lot of things getting more and more shift of course but in the world the sport is not dying and I have the proof because I have working dog and I see it in my database there are so much young people in Czech Republic for example look at the competitions in Czech Republic on the podium my god girls and boys under 30 years it's very inspiring very inspiring and it's the sport getting less people in countries like Germany yes it is like this but in other countries it grows and we must understand that the situation we're speaking about at the beginning of our interview you start in a club you go there with a bicycle I start in the local club I go there with a bicycle three times a week I think this is in this way it's finished and we have today a new kind of sport it's getting more and more international and we must protect this community we must do something that this community stay together so the world that we are good people that we are not stupid people making shit with their dogs we take care about our dogs our dogs got the best care what you can expect we spend so much money in them we go to the best doctors we go to the best physios we do everything what is necessary and we don't care about spending money in our animals and it's not just the money but we also do the best we can every single day to get better yes like like better than today better than yesterday okay yeah you can judge me today but I'm trying to be better and I will be better you know

every all of us have that desire to improve and and when we talk about well don't give me examples of what training used to be 20 years ago 30 years or 40 years things have changed are there any shitty people that do stupid things to dogs of course are they gonna exist I'm sure they will but that's not the majority of the people that are in the sport we really we're really educating and improving by the day by the hour and it's amazing to to but at the same time very frustrating when I talk especially with you know I talk on my podcast sometimes I like to invite people that are all you know wanting to ban electric color or whatever and try to get with their reasons why and they always will give me this example well I used to be one of these trainers 30 years ago I'm like well 30 years ago if you were to go in a dentist office it's gonna look very different than today you know like go today and see how they do or I mean just because you have a bad experience with one trainer 30 years ago it's so wrong to make this total conclusion of and put everybody in the same situation it should be more interested in the people that actually do this excellent training and it's like how do you do that instead of trying to pick on them and say oh but you're doing this and that war somehow needs to stop between us and you you must the people must recognize that our dogs they have a genetic genetically they have insight that they need to be in this kind of activity yes this dogs are breeded for over 100 years for this kind of genetic and you can't say from yesterday to today we stop giving this kind of dogs breeded for protection breeded for for tracking breeded for all this work we can't stop it from yesterday to today it's not good for the animal it's not good for the healthiness of this of this dogs so in this in this position it's in my opinion it's totally necessary to explain that this is the best way to give to this kind of dogs a really good life in balance it's a purpose it's a meaningful life imagine if you just walk on a flexi around your block of apartments every day and you eat this quality food what kind of life is that for a dog like or for a person we all need to feel that we can accomplish we need we like a little challenge we like to overcome it we feel somebody you know and this is the whole force free community as much as they don't like me saying this it's if you don't give the dogs any kind of outlet even if they are not selected for it if the dog

likes to and and you know like they have to have a purpose if they don't have a purpose what happens we end up with dogs with all sorts of problems and then the animal shelters get full and people get rid of their dogs and simply because we eliminate and we don't allow them to have an outlet like this is the difference with humans like if we think of some analogy like this you would have a kid you can either put him in some martial arts and become very confident and very good productive in society or he can go on the street and do exactly the same thing and go completely different way and end up in jail exactly and if you have a kid what is full of power has so much energy then of course send him to football send him to karate sent him to boxing because he can expand his power there but he learned rules and with this combination the child learns to be part in the society with this energy and bring something to it and exactly the same with the working dogs with the rot we the doberman the german shepherd the malinois the edith terrier it's it's the perfect thing for these dogs i think this is where we need to all of us we need to continue to keep talking to everybody and educating and not not really going into confrontation and fights with people but really explaining why this is okay and not just okay but why this is important it's a little bit like in our community you have to learn to accept the thinking of other people yes you really and and some people have the gift for that i had to learn it i'm like oh i know what you're saying it's like no i don't know what you're saying i need to shut up and listen sometimes you know because that's it's so important to be able to listen to each other it's so important for me it's exactly the same ! 10 years ago more than 10 years ago after working dog getting more and more successful i started to make a copy of it for the horses it was in 2010 and i realized that the community of the horse sports men and breeders is very similar but on another level of course and i got in joint venture with a big big company for newspapers in germany and they come to me and i said okay we have four newspapers or four magazines for the whole sports and they are dying

and you started with this nice idea and one of our manager of the board he's a dogs man and he know your website working dog and he tells us when this guy makes the same for horses it will be so popular also and so we want we want to make a joint venture with you and I did it they spent millions of euro in our joint venture yeah yeah and it was such a crazy time because at this time my company has about 30 people so my own company in Halle has about 30 people and I built up this new company for the company for horses with them on a completely different place in Germany and it was three days working in my company three days working in this company driving this car every week I grow up this new company for horses to 10 people and I bring this website to the market and it was so much stress and the biggest thing was that we are under the roof of this big magazine house over a thousand people are working with this and there you have like in big company it's structure yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah every whoever worked in company like this know you spend 70% of your energy every day into the work and 30% you must spend into politicians into politics yeah and for me it was so hard at the beginning because I was always my own boss right and you have some idea but then you have to run that idea by everybody and they have to agree and exactly why to discuss about it because this idea is brilliant I want to keep it all running and one of my my teacher there in this time very well experienced businessman he said to me oh my god Matthias you are like a bulldozer in the in the in the in the wood and in this time I learned to step back listen not always agree for sure but this is I think this is a very very important thing for our community oh it's a quality that it's a very difficult but it's a very important one and I you know how I said in the beginning like you're really good like you like the business you see things and and to do that you have to be able to listen because otherwise it's not like you will you will miss opportunities you will miss you know like it's just not yeah it's not a smart thing so so the so where is the horse where is that standing today it's the world's most successful website for horses cheers to you man yeah but I decided in 2013 2014

to sell my options on this company today I'm not sure if I did it again like this but in the situation for me this was only a business yeah you know I like horses but I don't love them and so it was like okay the situation is good and I decided to sell my options I'm still I'm still something like a service company for them we help in development and administration but it belongs today completely to this big media house and yeah it's history and it's a worldwide yeah this times helps me also to to have new ideas for our dog sport community it it's always good to to to look at the whole sport because they are much more professional and yes at the end they have the same problems like we exactly the same problems they have the people out there fighting against the horse trainers and it's completely the same but for them a lot of things are much more easier because in the government you have some horse people but you don't have some IGP dogs for people for sure yes yes that's the difference and whenever they it's just they have a little not a little they have much more opportunities as far as money to where they can if they really have to they can get lobbies they can get attorneys they can you know high end to where they can defend their rights to work with horses for sure at least in the dog world forget about horses and dog people to unify but in the dog world we can we have different interests we different clubs we can you know this is normal human qualities sometimes we get along sometimes we don't get along sometimes we need to step away and do something else but there is a bigger picture and there is a really bigger enemy towards all dog training and in that sense we have to find a way to work together against that and that's not easy that's not easy you know when we were talking like how where is a can stay in everything like I always kind of curious about how can even comes in can even was the idea idea to create a platform to organize events like exams like exams like exams competitions seminars and all this and it starts with you can make advertisement for your competition when you put it inside people can make registration there very easy yes yes all the forms yeah very true we use it we use it you know and I always I always struggling with competitions when they don't use Caniva and I must fill out some paperwork

and write in the chip number of my dog it's a hustle I hate it really and with the Caniva system it's so easy and at the end you promote your competition because when I make registration with my dog and I'm on the competitor list of this competition you can see it on working dog you can see this dog will participate on this competition this dog handler will participate on this competition and this brings also advertisement to the competition and for sure at the end you have a payment system in Caniva that means I remember in past it's a big thing for example in agility it's not a special thing if you have an exam with 100 dogs or with 100 starts it's normal there and with Caniva you can make the payment for the starting fee completely electronical and you don't have to collect it manually from the people yeah no it's a super cool like I remember when it first came it was a little confusing like what do we do with that but then once you once you use it it's like okay yeah this is totally makes sense it simplifies things and it's worth it what about ! like I I'm always interested in like all the laws and the legislations and is there anything new that you know of coming up in Europe that they're trying to do against dog sports or nothing at the moment because you know how in the first of January there was a big problem with the police and electric colors and what is next this is the big question and at the moment at the moment nobody knows what is next because nobody has the connection to the important points in the government and I am sure there will be something and only the naive and stupid people think now it's finished it's not there are people in the background fighting so hard for the next big thing maybe private people are not more allowed to make protection trade something like this I don't know and this is the point where I'm real afraid about that we don't know it and that our infrastructure and our our clubs don't have access at the moment yes very true because it seems like it always comes as a surprise at the very last moment where everything is pretty much decided and you have no chance to make a case against that anymore you know how it works people who are active in political maybe we make it very simple for example you are living in a village and

in this village you have the governor and you have people are active in this village who are responsible for this streets ideas about what to do for the kindergarten or our school needs something new blah blah blah all this what is necessary to keep the system on running and these people are active in politics they go there one time a month they discuss they decide they vote and at the end you see the result if you are only living in this village without any connection into this group where the decisions are made you will ever always be surprised about the new things yeah but these people they know about it since three years because decision in politics take so long and at the moment we have nobody who goes there this is what we need in the past we have it in the past the right people from the VDH sitting in the government going to this to these conferences and make discussion this people today don't do it this people today say what they did and they don't even ask us can you imagine yes I can imagine move your ass it's your job make lobby work for our sport you got paid for this this people don't come and ask you you must go there and work for it so how can we change it how can we how can we convince the people that are on the board of any working commission or whatever we want to call them this three four five six people in different organizations that they need to actually become proactive and defend us because that's why they are really this is why they are there it's not possible that's disappointing but not surprising unfortunately right um okay it's i i can't i can't go in details but exactly what we are talking right now takes so much brain work for me in the last years to understand how we can fix it and at the end we must accept that it's not possible to to reactivate in this infrastructure in our clubs this kind of making lobby work it's it's because of this infrastructure in this um yeah yeah that's how the machine moves right now yes yes so i have i have a solution for this since last year i'm working with a small group on this since last year we met every month and speak about the next steps and it's

completely out of any official things it's completely hide it until now and over the next month for sure and there will be a day it will not be tomorrow or in two days that we come to public and when we come to public everything will be perfect to make this happen and solve this problem we have right now wow that's it's a little bit i know it's now a shit situation no no no that's exciting yeah you won't hear more but definitely don't give anything away it's just it's just very comforting to know that you know somebody's trying somebody's working on it and maybe there is other people working on something similar and even though we are not working together you know but we have to we have to for me it's it's always nice to see when when people out there try something new and try to do something for the sport for the community i respect this and i'm i'm totally happy that more people won't do something and i don't i don't go out and say this will not be um they will not be successful with it i don't do it because i can't know yeah we need to try so much ways and at the end nine of ten will don't work and one will work and we need ten people doing ten different ways yes to have this and maybe my idea also don't work i don't know it right now i believe in it and i'm thinking that the basic of my idea is um going out of the bubble it don't make sense um to get stronger inside the bubble we must go out of the bubble yes and there was a really a really nice situation at the tzatzet i must speak about it because it's a good example for every organizer they must listen exactly to this right now in every in every competition or in every big championship in germany it is totally normal that you ask for local politicians in most in the most situation it's the local governor mayor yeah yeah of the of the town and it's always the same they come at the beginning and they come at the end our guy comes in the middle on saturday when the stadium was full and at one o'clock after lunch it was the big greatest atmosphere in the stadium it was not the end ceremony where the most people are going nobody paying attention anymore yeah yeah very smart it was in the middle and then he goes around and he was looking and he was saying my god i never see this children

so much people here in my in my town wonderful and this dogs look what they do please explain me he don't know nothing about our sport and then we explained and then Dirk Giedler the judge of the of the protection he said to me give him a slot right now Dirk what do you mean give him the microphone he we we make a short break for two minutes he go on the field and he should say hello to the people and we were thinking what okay we we make short pause he got the microphone he goes on the field and he said hey dogs people it's very organic very natural and at the right time yes and then and then he said it's so nice to see you here it's so beautiful this competition and I hope you come again next year and the whole star was oh and this guy he make look they like me I'm famous so this is important for politicians for sure and after the competition we talked and he said how can I support you next year what can I do and this is such a small thing yes and it's very again it's the right time with the right idea and it's not like he had to prepare some fake speech on paper and it's like no no I'm talking to you people and I'm getting it back the same way Ivan you know it every time it's a ceremony or it takes so long and then the local politician come and blah blah blah these are the yeah this is very smart and hopefully yeah people that listen around the world you know it's it's a smart way to to enter that that interaction is very natural at the right moment between the government and and the dog people beautiful and now you have you now you have a politician guy who's well connected in this area and he knows about the sport and imagine next time there will be discussion about new laws about new what to change against us you can go to him you can say hey can you help us and for sure he will because he knows that this are serious people that it is nice atmosphere nice sports fair to the animal and this we need no this is this is what we really need and it's so much better than going to his office and trying to convince him of something it doesn't work that way it never works that way this is how lobby lobby work must go on we must speak about our sport we must go out of the bubble showing the people outside they never heard about our sport what it means making IGP sport and we have you know it we have a marketing problem about what we talking IGP IPO Vielseitigkeit

Schutz Hund what is this why yeah tell me why the people did this in the last 20 years why it's exactly like when I changed the name of working dog every five years it don't make sense no this is mind blowing I mean how many times we've changed this for no reason for for actually of course there are reasons if you ask them but it's the wrong reasons it's just trying to play along and submit to instead of saying hey no this is what we do this is not bad we don't need to change we don't need to pretend that it's something and it's just as you said how many times if you change anything like I change my kennel name to something else you change working I mean you don't have identity you are nobody forever you know how hard it is to build up a brand it's it's so much work and it's so much money to build up a brand and when you have this brand you must you must you must save it you must keep it you must praise it and honestly right now I'm trying to even think what IGP stands for yes exactly like come on people enough politics I think we this has been very cool stuff tell me tell me on personal like what is the kind of dog like what kind of dog you like to train like what is your type of dog when you see some dog and you like okay that's my kind of dog in the past normally I was always starting competing with a female it was for me yeah this hole from Holzer of floor that was my first biggest success where I make the second place on the world championship um 2013 yeah you you you you make first we have the same points and you have the better protection um then after after holla I have my working dog bredana I was one time VDH champion in 2017 competed so often with her on world championships and um yeah now it's it's a male it's ash ash yeah and um how old is he yeah he's now seven okay and it's it was really a pity because he was finished when he was two and a half so he I was so fast with him and then I have my first national competition and I make uh he was even not three years I make first place with amazing points and I was thinking with with this dog with this dog I will reach my goal and maybe I can make something like a world champion yeah this was my hope in this time and then you know what happened Corona comes this fucked me up so hard because when Corona was over he was almost five

and I really did nothing in this two years I was really lazy in dog sport I okay we have training but you have no target right right for what to train so in this time I spent much more time in breeding and when Corona was finished I have exactly two years after my first competition the successful competition with him I had the first one again and I have excellent in tracking and I have excellent in obedience and it was like I am doing it again and then in the protection he comes through the blind and make pom and everybody said oh and I don't hear him bark and I know okay something gone gone wrong and what was happened at this time really a lot of people trained with me a lot of people who has dog dogs from my from my kennel and the last training it was two or three days before and I was making helper work for everybody and at one o'clock in the night when we was finished I take my dog out for protection so totally stupid but I don't think about the other people don't think about and then I make real a bad sink it was a mistake for me it was not a mistake from the dog and he has a wrong combination in his head because I work at the blinds for making the short ways with the ball in the blind and then we put the ball on the other side in the blind and we don't recognize that the ball is on the wrong side and every blind he comes without the ball out and I was so angry of him and I said what are doing take the ball yeah it's a must he don't want this shit ! ball he must ! do it to go to ! the helper so he come every time without the ball and I was so angry and I make force to him and I said come on come on do it and this make disturb him in this situation he don't understand it for sure it was my mistake right and then I checked I checked oh shit somebody put the ball on the wrong side so exactly on this side he don't look right right and this this he takes to the competition and he comes around and he only said I must be right so I take something but he don't take the ball he take the helper ! and this was it cost me so much points that I don't get the qualification on the German championship and I lose two years of corona and now one year because this stupid shit and then after this competition all my people who trained with me make

first second third and fifth place wow and I was so down I was so down because I didn't pass and then my father came to me and said hey what's going on and I explained him and I said I'm so angry about my team why they don't help me in this situation I was the last one I do all the protection work with them and then he said to me stop with it why you are angry with your team it's your fault you are the leader of your team you make bad organization and now stop this and be happy of your team because today they are successful and I was like yes he's right I switched my mood and my mind and then it was really a nice weekend I just got goosebumps like listening to this this is tough one man it was a hard exercise for me you can't believe me I've been there one time I remember with it was with Kenny it was the year before I won the world championship and I don't know I don't know was it FCI or FMBB but it was in Holland and he didn't just bite he he actually beat so hard that he moved the whole blind and the helper and the blind fell down so and then he let go and he started barking I mean but that's the dog sport too you know that's kind of in a way why we I think it's in a way why we do it and why we like it because there is still that thing between you and the dog and the dog sometimes can just be the dog and say fuck it this is what I'm doing exactly and this is the point where you think hey I am a real professional and then you come and your dog said not today yep I'm a dog it's good that we can laugh about it but I know at the moment it's it's just it's a crash it's like it's just a pop yes yes and it's it's always it's always like everybody has his part where he's strong and everybody has his part where he's really good and it changed from dog to dog so for me I do it like you so many years I'm always I'm always afraid about the track so my last four or five tracks were always excellent I make four times 100 in excellence with Ash but again when I go to the tracking field in the exam I'm still nervous yes I can't stop it because because you're walking behind watching yeah and in track there are always so much things you that can be

out of your control yes yes yes so which is your favorite like if you have a I mean you're right it depends on dog to dog like I know like right now I have a young one that's not even two years old he is a genetic freak when it comes to tracking like I I I mean I was busy trying to prepare for FMBB until my dog had the injury and we got out so I'm like okay well he's I can put him to wait a little bit so maybe four months I haven't done nothing I take him out and I do a track and it's not even any tracking food I mean just randomly like I could care just like okay let's do something with him and it's so different when the dog has this talent and and it's like you know some dogs are tracking they're on the track and some dogs are in the track like with their mind they're like and I I don't know I'm sure there will be some difficulties and I still will stress about tracking because of that as we're talking it's out of control but I know that it's such a good feeling to know that the dog has this natural talent for it but like if you take on equal basis any dog what is your favorite part of the sport it's a protection protection yeah it's a protection because it's the real character of okay who are you right yeah yeah and for sure because I'm I'm I'm also a helper I love helper work and for me I I like dogs who are so strong in protection for me for me it's okay when the dog is not so good in obedience then for me I can yes I can agree with it I learn him the basics and for me it's okay if he's not the fastest not slashing right yeah yes it's okay but in protection I won't see grip and I won't see speed and I won't see a dog who do something on the helper and this is also what I breed most of my dogs are in in this really really good they have some problems in obedience some people are telling me could be more drive for this but they work in another way they are like yeah yeah I know what you mean it's hard for me to explain in English for no no I know what you mean it's more of a like like the classic you know Belgian ring kind of more primitive dog with natural abilities of like okay this is this is protection this is important this is who I am and then yes they will do obedience for you but they don't see the

it's not a border calling mentality right it's not the oh let's do this yes and Brudena for example was exactly this kind of dog Brudena my second litter I take her from this from all this puppies because she was for me most impressive as a young dog or as a puppy where I think okay this will be really nice working dog and then I stopped training with her and in protection from the first day it was so easy to make really something great with her she was it was powerful yeah yeah in obedience in obedience I was dying I was dying she was nine months old or ten months old and I was not able to teach her the healing she was not interested in food she was not really interested in the ball it was like okay yes and I was thinking about myself that I'm not able to teach a dog the healing and it was I remember in 2014 I was at the championship in Finland I don't know was it the FMBB I think so yeah yeah yeah yeah and there I was with my Holle and I met there Karl Heinz Knies he was competing there and I know him for sure before well-known dog handler since years here in Germany and I speak with him and I said hey you are the guy with this touch this thing you make I have a young dog and she's really nice but in protection but in obedience I'm dying I guess I should explain to everybody that listens I mean Carl Heinz he had a it's it's basically like a very smart way of training the dog with a like a target to where it places it and then the dog kind of makes the attention and makes sound and of course you give reward for the sound and it's very clear because it also works with frustration if the dog makes sound beep beep and you don't give reward he gets frustrated and make more more more yes exactly and then we started to train together in 2015 2016 and Karl Heinz he was I always say he was my last big mentor and I make protection for his dog and he helped me to getting into the next level and I said to him look at this dog we make no obedience yeah and he was looking and he said Matthias you competing on world championship I'm not sure if this dog is enough for you because she don't want make healing not enough

drive why you keep her I said to him yeah wait make no protection and after protection he said to me okay I understand I love it so and then he said okay it makes sense to spend time to try yes yes and one and a half year later or two years later I got German champion and with this dog now now comes the story with this dog on every competition I got an excellent in healing wow yeah it it was the most worst exercise for her it was the hardest to train and at the end on every competition I make excellent in this in the heel work so this is this is the kind of dog I like for me it's okay when I must spend more energy from my side into the obedience but in the protection I want the real one yeah the natural ones does is Carl Heinz is he doing anything now or yeah he he want to compete at the competition but his dog gets sick two weeks before and he called me and said shit and I'm trying to fix it but he was not fit enough and so he decided don't compete he was there the whole weekend and we called this afternoon and he said to me Matthias for sure next year I want to compete I heard from everybody that everybody wants to compete so you must save for me a place awesome wow and speaking of which how does it that's a good question about the sunset like you have to limit it at some point to certain number or how is it going to work so Bart said to me two days ago Matthias you must find a way that 300 people can compete I said it's not possible because we need tracking and he said yes you stupid IGP people stop it with tracking you don't need it yeah yeah yeah this is a good question Ivan and I'm honest I don't have an answer yet for it I know I know so many people won't compete next year the Tsatsit competition in Czech Republic they grow up to 70 starters and it was booked booked out in 20 hours something like this and I'm not sure we make one day more that we can have 100 competitors next year but I'm sure there are much much more who won't go there it also starts to be very difficult on the judges for so many days to stay focused like I know I also I'm a judge and I know myself like there is no way I can judge to a certain point but my brain

checks out like I would not be able to so protection is your thing it makes sense it makes sense because it's I mean when you think about it IGP ultimately yes it's three phases yes it's it's but protection is the the essence of it it really is that's the point and this is think now three hours back when you asked me how did it start yes for for me it starts at the moment I take the sleeve on and make protection with a nine year old German shepherd the first time and I remember it like it was one hour ago when I take the sleeve here and I don't see the dog when he's coming here it was skipping a bit yes it was such here look I this is the emotion I feel about it and this is my life and now you know why I want protected right I can't I can't imagine doing IGP sport without the part of protection I can't imagine it's then it's for me not my sport anymore right so and or or the very washed down type of protection that you don't really it's not protection anymore it's playing frisbee it's just it's just going through the behaviors without the emotion and the showing character anymore very true how soon do you start like do you have any what is your typical like I know with me I I I'm just so I I'm very I don't have structure with my training at all people sometimes think that I am because I train professional and whatever that there is always but I'm I'm freestyling big time like if sometimes I could start a puppy at four weeks I mean four months or eight weeks or a year old and like where are you with this like as far as training how often how soon do you start them I'm very lazy at the beginning and this always kills me when I see on YouTube or Facebook other people showing what their dogs do with eight months then I get really in depression yes the YouTube champions yes and I'm thinking in this situation oh man Matthias raise your ass up go out to the kennel take out the dog and do something no you must I'm really at the beginning I'm so lazy okay I do the basics sit with food but it's really yeah not in in this way a lot of other people do but at the end there comes a point I think it's when the dog getting about one and a half year

then for me it switched and then I start to be doing a lot and then I'm always wondering where all these dogs are I saw one year ago on YouTube or on Facebook and maybe I have no result in my head about this maybe it's I don't know maybe it's not good to do so much when the dog is young I can't I have no idea about it I can't explain but I see very very often good good exercises good training from unknown people with young dogs they make perfect dumbbell work even with six months I was thinking like oh my dog even never see a dumbbell in his life and he's one year I think about this sometimes too and I ask everybody that you know when I talk to Mia and Yanni and you know they were here for a month we trained together and it was cool my I don't know like I you know how well way back when I started it was very important not to start young because trainers at the time were just very true too hard it was very different style of training and you cannot do this kind of shit to five month old puppy and and then things changed then we changed a little bit of training and we were like well puppies are still it's not that they don't have brains they still can do things and we know and just as you say you can have a six month old puppy that can do a lot of things if we do it intelligently I think I think there are benefits but even when you look at how we said like yeah it's a YouTube champion but then what happens when he should be three years old where is that dog again and I think happens a lot with kids too like the parents decide no you will play tennis five times a week and at the moment the kid is old enough to say I used to like tennis but I'm done with it and there is that risk to burn a puppy by doing so much and demanding so much for a brain that's not ready and so I kind of go I think similarly to you I find that and I have to be careful how I say this because I do things with puppies but in all reality where I am today with my training I realized that I can accomplish so much more when the dog is older even if I start from scratch simply because the dog is a little bit more mature and understands why we're doing what we're doing if that makes sense instead of being a puppy and okay I'm doing these things but I don't kind of know what I'm doing so I yes I do things with puppies just to keep their interest but I'm very very careful not to not to be so demanding to a puppy

and in fact if again kind of yeah being lazy is a good word and sometimes I think it becomes with experience and age and realizing that you're not missing that much and I truly believe that you have a dog that's a little bit more mature and and that varies of course of the individual dog but you know being a year old or 15 months old or even a two year old when I'm teaching him something totally new I think they put it more in the right context understanding and it comes just as fast and you all of a sudden realize that oh I didn't really miss the boat and that's kind of you know I guess I I mean you have different dogs too like some some there is puppies that are five months old or six months or seven months old and you know they are grown up they actually see it like they recognize oh oh you're looking at me kind of different I can show you who I am to where you have another puppy that is like okay I'm gonna bark at you but I don't see you as a threat you know and I think we have to recognize that I was yeah as I said I mean Yanni bomb with his new dog very very cool dog and he's so young and he has already I think he's gonna get IGP3 any day I mean he's totally ready to do anything then Mia was here at the same time her dog is the same age and she's like no no I have to take my time and I think that's the beauty of our sport too to where we all feel different just like when you said with it depends on the dog exactly it depends on the dog for sure also on the dog handler but also for the most part on the dog yes yeah it's just like you know when you listen to to Knut talking about Clem at the time he was six months old and he was like I'm ready my dog Django at the time you know was at 2000 or what he was the youngest dog in competition he wasn't even three years old he was second at FMBB with one point difference between me and Knut it's like we shouldn't and this is important for trainers that are starting not look at him he's ready I should be there like you have to recognize who you are working is the dog ready and how much can you ask before you cross that line because once that line is crossed it's hard to bring the dog back I think and it's a very cool thing to be able to recognize and sometimes take your time but then there is the other risk on the other side that okay well the dog is already four years old and you're still taking your time like really taking your time and then who knows what just like COVID comes or something happens and you're thinking that you have that two year window of opportunity but then life hits you and you have to start over it's a tricky game okay what what what happen always

I see it every time you have a dog on competitions in different generations so at the moment when you're when you're looking at the dog from Knud or my dog Ash they are in the end of the career age and there are some dogs now who are better in performance and technique but without this experience so at the moment when when you look at Ash I started to train him seven years ago right seven years ago with my experience and with the way to train before seven years and of course since in the seven years a lot changed and when I see at my youngest dog this circa from Holzhäuser Floor and she made now this litter with 16 puppies wow and she will be my next dog for competition I make BH with her at the end of last summer and I started with her in IGP 1 and she's now I think not finished but she will finished this summer in IGP 3 and then she gets in heat at the beginning of the year and I decided okay I make a litter before I go with her on competition so I did the litter is now here and the puppies are going away in a few weeks or few days and then I will compete or will go on with her in ! training and I will compete with her starting at the end of the year and when I see her training it's on a new level in different ways so for sure I watched out so much on things I don't recognize six or seven years ago like making the zits and directly the ears and like this and making the plats and directly the ears and making this and I did it from the first beginning with her and for sure she is now not perfect because she's young and not finished but in one or in two years she will have the better technique than Ash right now and this is what always happen in competition the new people come the new generation come with a better technique but less experience and when they have a hard tracking then you are with your old dog on the better side the consistency yeah yes it's better for you and this is easy then this young generation have the better chance and of course if you have a dog seven years eight years it's the end of the career and you see it also in the things you must do with the dog of course I prepare Ash completely in another way for the competition then

I did it three years ago it's not necessary to explain something it's only about he must be in good condition and he must be happy wanting to go yes exactly he must be happy let's go dad I'm ready wait wait yes yeah true this is another cool part of the sport you know knowing learning how to manage the young dog in competition versus the five year old versus the seven year old and and and not do the same thing because they don't want the same thing there's gotta be something that was my whole like I you know with eyes the same like I had the COVID I had bunch family problems and it just it was a big struggle and he's seven and a half but he was in the best place in his sport career for that FMBB and and and the key to that was even though you know we like it's so hard when you have everybody around you with younger dogs and they're training every day and you're like no I don't need to train every day like I really shouldn't be training every day because you have to keep that spark that flame of I want to with the older dog especially when things are there is nothing to problem solve it's and this is where you know like when again like your dog Knud's dog all the older dogs when they are able to perform this is a long term strategy of being able to maintain it going back to the example that I was giving with the kids that are very talented to play tennis but then the parents just burn them out before they are 16 years old and they don't want to touch a racket anymore trucking is becoming more and more difficult to find places even in Germany now no depends of the region in East Germany it's brilliant like I every time I go in there I'm like I need to take a two week vacation and just oh you have so much space for this year and the farmers are not so they are okay right so we have for the whole competition we have two fields wow that's all it's so huge here in our area and the good thing it's the same for everybody okay for sure one day it was a little bit more windy sometimes it rained okay but the field was the same and that's good that's important I think yes tracking is every once in a while when I hear well we have to take tracking away like if we take tracking away it will change the sport again like the beauty of our sport is because of the three components that are so different if you take away the tracking the completely spot will change and it will not be the same the question is can the tracking be in another

way like like the KMPV area searches and stuff right for example and okay we are international guys you come around you have contact to people all over the world for me it's the same and and I understand for a guy from China or for some young people living in urban cities this is a big shit yeah for me I'm I'm I'm here in my house I'm living in a village I'm not living in a city and when I go down one one one stair then I can take my dog and 10 meters in front of my house that's the first field field field and there I have a big green for horses I can search on grass so for me it's easy yeah but a lot of people it's not look at the look at the at the field at the trekking field at the FNBB right now yeah this was crazy and you know you can have a real good dog but in this point it's a lot about luck but I hope I really hope that tracking stays because it's important that protection stays that challenges and tests a little bit the dog and tracking shows such important quality of dog that can switch drives and show you natural talent and you always recognize just like in protection and obedience you recognize the natural talent or the training and when you have the training and the natural tunnel you're like you know as a judge as a spectator you just enjoying it gets you motivated to go back and train when you see it in that excellent form in Florida very difficult with tracking we yes I believe we have to like right now it's already above 30 degrees and like we went it's it's not easy and I remember when I was in Italy at the world championship I had with me a young female I was competing there with Bredana and with this young female I make some training during the competition and I was on grass and I put my food there and something like 20 minutes later I go there and it was full of big ants and they are biting my dog so hard it makes me so much problems for the next weeks it was unbelievable and then I realized how comfortable trekking in East Germany is and how difficult in other countries but there is no way around that you know it just so what we do like right now summertime we're already planning that we're gonna get in the cars and go like for a week or ten days somewhere and just do tracking ! it's not possible here we

it's just we have our ants are not big they're small they're called fire ants and man like you put the food and within minutes less than five minutes and they're very like it's so bad and we come up with different strategies how to deal with it but it's it can really discourage you from doing it I can imagine for sure tracking tracking is a nice exercise because you're in a completely different situation and the dog is in a completely different drive and it's so much about concentration and about harmony and it also takes some time for me when I started to learn that stress and tracking is so bad for success and for me tracking is one of the part where you really need a motivated dog yes if the dog is not willing to do it if the dog don't have pleasure to do it forget it it will become it will not be pleasant experience for the dog and for the trainer at that point it just it becomes frustrating and and but there is the beauty of you know going in the open field and you and your dog and this peaceful like almost like a meditation like you know it's really just there is something about tracking absolutely I remember some years ago I was always good in tracking but I don't feel like an expert and so my last big experience in getting the next level was some years ago with a guy here in Germany his name is Sascha Angelmayer a lot of people know him that he's making some tracking seminars and this and for me he's one of the best in this and his way of tracking I really like and he teach me a lot in the past so he brings me on the next level something like this and there was some very interesting moments the first was that you use your leash and you communicate all the time with your dog but not in the way like the judge can take you points or like this it's on another level and this helps me to understand that it's not only going behind your dog it's like bring your dog in the right keeping him the correct mindset yes yes yes and this was very helpful for me and the second I was laughing this days because another well

very experienced trainer I think he's one of the most well-known trainer in the world he was writing on his Facebook profile something like yeah and the next video I prevent you is about how to handle problems with the corners so it was about when the dog miss a corner teach him how to handle this and when I read it I must really laugh about it because years ago one of my first question to Sascha was hey Sascha when my dog miss the corner what can I do how to handle it how can I learn to solve this problem and he don't understand the question and then I explain it again and then he said why why you want learn how to fix a problem learn your dog that the problem don't exist and I was yeah makes sense right so he he teached me he teached me that your dog don't go over the corner and when he goes over the corner then it was your mistake and today it's exactly like this it don't happen to me and when it happened one of I don't know 50 times or trackings like this right then then I realized okay it was my fault because I was not in concentration and so the dog was not in concentration this is a really interesting sinking yeah maybe he is also one interesting guy for your podcast yeah I can definitely does he how can he speak english yes oh yeah yeah I haven't had anybody actually talking about tracking and tracking is something that is very interesting it really is very interesting yeah you have some famous people here in Germany also very popular in tracking he makes a great job and teach people so much about tracking man I think we close it we've been talking for well so long very long very long but super conversation super conversation so again like congratulations on the succeed thing and definitely stay on top of that and keep it going because it's a big there is something into it and it's going to be important and what is the next competition what do you have next for you the next will be the German no no it's wrong the next will be the competition in Poland when is that in June oh ok so it's not that far no it's not and after after this I go to the German championship ok and maybe maybe I have luck and make my qualification to the FCI world championship where is FCI do you know

Hungary I think I don't know why no no it's Slovenia that's right that's right yes yeah yeah they I don't know who I was talking where it was some years ago but the tracking they're going to have in a different area not up in the mountains but from what I know the tracking is going to be like a bunch of different airports down somewhere so the WOSV world championship will be in Hungary and FCI in Slovenia no yeah we will see well I wish you best of luck it's you know it's important this year it's like there is a lot of competitions and you're on the roll so best of luck and I'll see you I don't know when it's going to be maybe maybe it is this year but thank you thank you for the conversation my friend it's awesome yes you're making a good job with this interviews and it's also I think an important part of communication and marketing for the sport yeah thank you yeah it's important I think we all collectively are starting to become more aware that it's important to do something about in many different angles and I guess that's what I do I don't get you know it's not like sponsorships or advertisement it's just I do it mainly because I like to talk to people I like to talk to and and yeah it's interesting for everybody so I'll keep going but okay Matthias thank you thank you very much all right so I go now sleep bye bye yes I know take care my friend böyle Thank you.