개에 대해 이야기하는 Bow Wow Bill과 Ivan Balbanov

Yeah. Yeah. But you have the proven track record to, to, to be loud and to know what you're talking about because you've been in the industry for a very long time. You have your school. And one thing that I really like about your school is that it is a truly pass fail. I've been to other schools where it, it, they say it's a pass fail, but everybody seems to pass. And there's just something fishy about that. And so I know that you've had a school recently. Yeah. Well, we have a class that's happening right now. They're kind of almost going towards the end of it. Um, so yeah, it's not an easy and definitely not an easy school. People get a little bit frustrated. But I think that's the, you know, it's not an easy school. And I think that's the most important thing. The school, as far as maintaining the standard and integrity of, of what we do. So yeah, it's definitely not a, anybody that has done it, no matter how knowledgeable and how high IQ they may have and hands-on experience. So yeah, it's, it's quite complicated. And what is interesting, it gets, it evolves. It just hasn't stopped evolving. It's very crazy how, I mean, I don't know where we want to talk and what we want to talk about. I just, you kind of prompt me with this. So now it's in my head. But, but you know, what is, and it's cool. I like it. I see stuff that I teach, how it comes into the industry with three, four years delay. And, and when I started in the beginning, I'm like, okay, well, then everybody catches up on it. So what, what's the point? The reason why it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's interesting to work, it's It was very interesting to see how that mechanism, how it works, you know.

And it goes way back, actually. I mean, it goes way, way back. However, at that time, because, yeah, for various reasons, but it was hard to... I guess even now it's not easy to point to where certain ideas come from. I mean, I know where they come from because they're my idea, but, you know, people that hear it third, fourth hand, it's, you know, and then it's totally fine. It's very interesting. We can, I mean, even, you know, I was watching, I'm in the process of finally sending a bunch of VHS tapes to get, you know, digitized. And until they still, it's still possible because they have a life span too. Until, and so I was watching, let me shut my phone off. I was watching some videos from like 92, teaching a dog retrieves and using signals. What typically everybody calls markers, we call signals. And so, like when I kind of introduced that whole idea, probably was, who knows, maybe a couple of years before that video. And then it took so long to, for everybody to kind of catch up on it and get the idea that that's, he has some value. It was like, why, why bother with this? Like, what, what's the big deal? Then we did the, with Canine Training Systems, that training without conflict, clear communication video, which was about that. But even before that I did, I was like late nineties, where I did the advanced Schutzkund book. And that's where I also was talking a lot about clear communication and basically using signals. And again, what everybody knows as markers, verbal markers. That's when, you know, then later on, of course, Learbrook did the videos with Michael and, and he was selling a much cheaper than anything else. So that's kind of what really popularized it. Same happened with understanding, first of all, forget about finding how to use negative punishment, how to use negative punishment, but just understanding negative punishment. That was again, like mid nineties when I was explaining how to do, and I mean, it's in that book still. So it kind of goes really that far back when I'm looking how, you know, certain idea that I would have. And eventually the timeframe that that idea kind of becomes very, just as normal as it can possibly be in the doctorating circles. And so now I'm doing some really, really different cool things. Um, but yeah, you know, I just read a book.

I was talking to, um, Chad Mack and last week, and I was talking about this book, angels of our better nature. Uh, are you familiar with that book by chance? No, no, no. It talks about how violence has declined in our society, how we, we believe that we are existing in a dangerous climate. And, and in a lot of ways in some, some areas of the world, uh, especially with the conflict and stuff that we were talking about earlier, it is true. But overall we are significantly safer than we have been in history. Yeah. And that was also, uh, whatever his name is, the linguistic, um, professor, what was his name now? The gray curly hair guy. Um, anyway, yeah, but that, yeah, go ahead. That's the, yeah, it's a interesting one, but it's, it can be argued though. You know, Pinker was his name. Yeah. Pinker. Yep. That's the author of the book, Steven Pinker. Oh, okay. So we're talking the same thing. Yep. Same, same guy. And, um, my point being is that during this evolution of human societies, civilization to bring about safety, there's also key points that have happened in predominantly in the 1960s. Um, and those key points happen to be women's rights, uh, animal rights, human rights overall and gay rights as well. But the animal rights was a, was a huge turning point with pretending to animals that are being raised for livestock, but also for pet dogs. And, and I think that, that this is, you know, when, when you look at the 1960s and you have 1990, that's 30 years from the 1960s. And now we're 30 years from that 1990 of that first revelation that you have. And I think 30 years from now and 30 years, 60 years from now and 90 years and a hundred. I mean, if we look at it in, in these 30, 30 year windows. Right. That we are going to have dramatically evolved interactions and, and philosophies with how, how we, we understand, care for train and, um, just, just an overall different attitude towards the relationship that we have with these dogs. Yeah. Yeah. Who, who I, I don't think anybody would ever be able to even predict 10 years from now. It's, it's an insane where we are and what's going on with everything. And hopefully we're all alive, you know? Yeah. That's a big thing. Well, and I think I, and mark my words, folks, I know that robots will be training dogs. We'll have as, as much, uh, data that we have and the more data that we compile, the more we're going to know how to, how animals perceive and not just dogs, but, but, uh, I mean, and I'm going to mention this book. You have it behind you, but when I was there visiting you, right. Right.

I was looking at all your books and then you handed me this one. I suggest that. Yes. And you, and I'm so happy you did because I mean, this book, I'll put a link for it. You guys, I mean, it's like a $120. I got it on a black Friday special for 90 bucks. Okay. And, um, this book will change. It's changed me as far as my understanding of what operant conditioning means and just how thorough the studies are and how, how, how they're evaluated. And it's not just with dogs, but just with, with, they have lizards, rats, bunnies, birds, everything in this book. And, uh, it's, it's blowing my mind. I said, it's like a Bible where I could open up this book and any page and take a passage and contemplate on it. And, uh, it, it helps with your growing and understanding of what we do in, in, in, in not such a simplistic form, but to get deep in down the rabbit hole of, of how behavior actually works. It's, uh, I, I, I'm very pleased that you got it and that you've been going to, cause a lot of times I would recommend a book and somebody will have it just to have it just to, you know, um, but, and some books are easier to read than others. And depending where you are in your, what, what's interesting to you, that, that book can grab your attention in, in many different ways. I, um, I don't know. I think it was 2016 when I first got a hold of John Stadden. And we talk all, I mean, we talk quite frequently and I have, I have a bunch of our conversations even included in my school because of, it's kind of crazy how you can, you know, I mean, it was shocking for me that, you know, there's this extremely well-known big name. Person that, that understands animal and learning theories period. Person that, you know, there's this period. And me as a dog trainer and having very similar view of, of what, what is of interest to us. So, um, I mean, to kinda just briefly mention, you know, the, like, the, the reason it's called new behaviorism is because it goes beyond, you know, it goes beyond Skinner's idea that, you know, well, there is that black box and we don't know what's happening. Therefore we cannot really mess with it. Well, now we have neuroscience and so on, but, um, um, Stadden basically. And a few others is like, well, yeah, behaviorism is the, there is, there is like a, a very big percentage of, of that, that it's very valid. And if it's going to stay valid, but there is something that was missing. So finding the pieces and putting them together. And he, he was just really good at that.

And another thing that really clicked with me was how, you know, like, like in Skinnerian radical behaviorism, yeah, we put the pigeon or the rat into the box and light comes up, levers pressed, shocks, you know, just the basic concepts. However, you, you know, kind of when you think of etology and how, how they clashed at the time. And etologists would say, well, you cannot really study a dolphin in a bathtub, or you wouldn't understand why the horse has hooves and the fish has a fin and so on, you know, so, so observing animals and everything in their natural habitat and what's the function of behavior versus how to just control behavior. Not to go too deep in it, but basically what the similarity, the very first similarity with me and Stadden was that, you know, recognizing genetic predisposition and selection and variation, variation of behavior and selection of what works and what did not. And not strictly influenced by kind of cut and dry reinforcement and punishment like the four quadrants, but actually what nature evolved you to be and how you function. And he has a very, very good story that he always tells about, you know, I'm horrible with names, but anyway, it's a border collie. And it's like in the 1800s or 1700s. It's somebody wrote about that dog because it was just blew everybody's mind at the time. Bunch of sheep, just some gate open and they got loose overnight and they had no idea where to find them. And a chef, a colleague basically got them in a little valley and kept them there until they came. The cool thing is that it wasn't trained to do that. It just goes through the instinct selection and practice and learning as he was doing it. And so I think the point of the story really is that not everything should be done through the four quadrants. There is other powers there that we neglect if we focus only on that. Well, there's an intrinsic desire. There is predatory behavior. There is, I mean, then we even look at temperature, right? We look at temperature, we look at environment, even weather. But then we also look at, I mean, just look at what God has given or whatever you want to call. I call it God. But the way that we don't make these animals, that they're made in a specific way. My dog just got fed. My wife just bought in some food for my dog here. And to take into consideration, is that why what you don't like about Nepo-Po? Is that they focus primarily on the quadrants? And this is something I want to add to that.

Yeah, you know, like I can, every once in a while, I'm like, maybe I should have few people that really understand it fully and have that conversation. But then it's like, what is the point? I have a lot of, I mean, I have a lot of issues with a lot of different trainings being on the balanced side, being on the positive side. And, you know, am I right or wrong? That's just my opinions. And yeah, for me, really, it's very hard to talk, especially like this, you know, when, let's say Bart is not part of the conversation. And I can say whatever I want. And he has no way of really defending. And I mean, I've told you, me and Bart, regardless of having drastically different views on training and understanding of learning, we understand our passions. And, you know, I mean, we love the same breed of dogs. There is like, there is plenty of commonalities. We actually, you know, every once in a while, it's not often, but every once in a while, we do talk on the phone. And when we talk on the phone, we actually talk forever. We just, it's kind of unspoken rule that we, there is no reason to touch that part of, we don't have to talk. Although I'm very open to talk about. But just as a whole, I disagree very much with almost everything. And that's the crazy part, you know. So to tell you kind of a little bit, like we, I guess we look very differently, just what dog is and what dogs strive for. We look very differently at motivation and how to create motivation. I guess we just follow very different learning structures. Like I, like I think dogs have, you know, they, they, when, when, how was the saying? The dogs just look to benefit their, how was that? There is an actual cliche phrase that it's used all the time in N'epopo. That dogs are there for, to better their life in whatever, I cannot think of it right now. But I don't think that's always the case. I think they, I strongly disagree with that. I don't say that that's not true because that's true for any living being. But for this to be my, uh, for how I develop my way of thinking about what the dogs are about. Um, it just doesn't, you know, it's not.

And then of course the, the whole low levels team, you know, very well, the whole world knows that I, I just don't see a reason. And maybe I'm not explaining myself well, but, um, yeah, then, I mean, I can go on and on. It's just not, I don't think it's, uh, it makes sense to do, but it's, it's really like pretty much the whole, like, like it's, it's not even apples and oranges. It's like apple and a rock. Like it's very, very drastically different how, how we think of a dog and how we get the job done. Okay. And I'm not saying that Nepopo doesn't get the job done. Like I, again, it's a, it's not an easy topic for me, um, to, to talk, especially when, again, Yeah, it's just, it's not. I'm versed in Nepopo as a Nepopo gold grad and Nepopo multiplicator. I just was always curious about that. And I wanted to ask that the first time that we spoke, but now I feel, I know you much better that I'm comfortable asking that. Okay. I mean, I, I let, let's take a, since you clearly want to talk about it, tell me about the dopamine box. What, what is the, the goal behind that? What, what is the, the, what are we trying to accomplish? I mean, it can be used for a variety of different behaviors, right? To, to, but to use negative reinforcement by having the dog finding. And we have the comments. I don't know if you could see them, but finding their advantage, right. And pulling towards that dopamine box. Once the head is in the box, then we, we rain food down on them. Right. But also, uh, we start to implement an article within that box to start, uh, the process of learning, um, article detection by sniffing that article. But also we'll, okay. Let's, let's pick one because it's going to get all over the place. And I, I, I can talk about every single one. So let's pick one, one reason, one good benefit of the dopamine box. I mean, there's, do you, it, there's a beginning, right. And then the process, and a lot of people aren't aware of the process of how we evolve this dopamine box for track. And so that's, that's the main purpose of what, what is taught is how to utilize this, this box for tracking. Uh, but let's, I, I, I don't think tracking was the, the main objective of the box and the main, I think that the tracking idea came a little bit later now. Um, because we move, we'll remove the bottom of the box. And so it evolves into, to, to, and then shortening the box, moving it away and, uh, environmental blindness. I don't know if you can see the comments. Um, but I'll put up environmental blindness. Comments will distract me. Yeah.

I'll put up any comments and if you guys have any questions here, we'll get to them. Um, but so, yeah, so environmental blindness, focusing the dog. What is environmental blindness? So if a dog is reactive to another dog, the dog is, uh, aggressive to another dog, it allows us to start to bring about a situation where the dog becomes tolerant by use of this box as a tool. So what, how, how does it get tolerant? Like the process of it? So the, he, he's, he doesn't like other dogs. What do we do with the box and how does the box benefit the situation? So we, we bring in the box, set it down. I don't know if that's even fair to talk about this cause it's a school and we're breaking down some. Yeah. I mean, we will, we'll, we'll, we'll kind of hover over it. Right. But I think that it's important. And I, and I have a question that, that somebody asked that I want to ask you about this, but it's, it's basically, we bring out the box. The dog learns to pull towards that box. Dog learns that the box is something that is very, very rewarding and the dogs. And then we start to, we will, we'll pull on that dog to let the dog. But let's, let's stop there because even, even when we say the box starts to be very rewarding, quite often when you try to work with a problem that's already for some reason triggering the dog, the dog often will refuse to eat. And then we're going to have to deprive the dog for eating. And so when the box is available, they start to eat. Right? Yep. That's a part of the process. That's right. Right. So it's not only, it's not necessarily, so what, what I'm saying is there is a, a forced element to it. Like you, you have no choice. If you want to eat, you're going to have to stick your head there. And once we convince you to do that, now we're going to see how we can use that to convince you that the other dog is okay or something. So let's say that happens. Let's say we have either, either the dog was very food driven or we had to force him to, you know, we had to go through some protocol to, to say, did you have to do that? Now we have the dog doing that and we're working with dog aggression. What, what's, what happens? So the dog learns that they go to the box and then we start to desensitize, pull on the dog, pull, bang on the box a little bit, show the dog that even though we have environmental, um, environmental noise, environmental, uh, discomfort, that as long as they maintain that focus, that they still get the reward. And then we'll start to bring in the dog, bring in the dog to the room, bring them out, bring the dog closer.

And, uh, it's, it, it is, uh, the dog focuses on the rewards raining down in the box. Okay. So the dog's head is in the box and we're being the dog closer. Yes. So does that dog that's head is in the box. And the box sees or interacts in any way with the dog? No. So the idea is, and, and sorry, cause I'm going to be a little bit kind of, not fair maybe, but here it is. It's kind of like a ostrich sticking their head in the sand and then whatever they are afraid of just because they don't see it and they pretend that it doesn't exist. We consider it that we have resolved some issue. And, uh, well, we start fading out that box as well. And the dog, when we, when they bring out the dog, then the dog starts to get acclimated to the environment with the dogs in, in the presence there. And, and I've seen it myself, but it's, but it's also, uh, I, um, I wanted to get your take on this and, and, uh, and it, it changes the focus of that dog from, from being aware to being okay with the, with the dogs in their environment. Okay. But the dog doesn't see, right? The dog, the dog does not see the other dog because he is busy eating because he's hungry and this is his only chance to eat. Yeah. So the whole setup is calling for leave that dog alone. Well, blinders too. Because you have, because you have food right now that's available. So stick your head there and eat. And to me that's, doesn't resolve any problem. Uh, I would, um, I, I, I would want to convince the dog in, in very different, whatever the way is. I don't want to say what way, cause it is probably thousands ways, maybe, I don't know. Yeah. Well, and same thing with- I want the dog to see, hey, there is a dog and I want to be able to change their, oh, that dog is not a bad dog. Yes. You know, versus, oh, I, that dog is not important for me because I have to eat right now. Uh, and I don't see that progression going anywhere. And you mentioned something about, you know, banging noises and, and, you know, environmental conditioning. Yes. Um, it, it kind of goes within the same line. And I, again, I, I would strongly disagree with it because again, we're sticking the head in the sand and basically things are happening. Um, when there, there is few things that we need to figure it out, what we need, what, first of all, what is our end goal? And is the end goal to kind of just bring some neutralization and I wouldn't say comfort, but, but basically, hey, I, I really, I gotta do this because, um, I have to eat. So, um, or deal with whatever the environment says that it's scary.

Um, and there is so many better, in my opinion, interesting protocols where you can, you know, create a appropriate emotional state in, um, but basically really change, change the dog's opinion on what they see. And if something they're scared of, you have to pass, you can say, well, don't be afraid, it's not gonna hurt. See, it just makes noises. Or you can say, no, you can be afraid, but you can overcome it. Um, the box basically kind of just doesn't allow much of that to happen. Well, and, and keep in mind too, that we're, we're discussing. And also when you have a dog that has a, a genetic foul, like, like you just, I'm sound dog, there is no box that's gonna change that. I agree. Um, but the way I see it, how it's sold as a, this, this works in, in, you, you think of anything and the box can come handy. And I don't have one thing that I can see at hand. Yes. And that's, you know, it's just, yeah. Even for, well, well, well, and we can keep in mind, this is just a discussion of, of just kind of briefly, you know, a synapse of this. I mean, especially not for how, how we set tracking, right. You mentioned tracking. So let's, because we can kind of wrap it up and tie it into how we were talking just right before about, uh, the new behaviorism and stardom and how genetics and etiology and, and what tracking is about versus, uh, uh, um, no, what, what, like, you know, you have the radical behaviorism. You have the radical behaviorism and, you know, reinforcement punishment, and you have actually other ways to learn to where the, the animal or the human can learn. And use their genetic evolution for that process. So if, if we are tracking, the best way to teach tracking is to have them use their nose. And use their nose, this is something that they know how to do any artificial component. It's, it's, it's a, it's a site. It's not even a site step. It's derailing from what the dog can already do. And the whole idea about training in my opinion is to, to be able to explain to the dog, what you want them to do. However, most of the things that we want them to do, they already know how to do. It's just a matter of how we can explain to them. And, um, yeah, I, it's tough, tough subject. Like we, we started off very, you know, in a very bad place, but again, I'm not, I'm fine talking about it. Um, like, again, if you have a really good, good point on, on, on like, uh, the, the dopamine box, give it to me or anybody that's, you know, Well, I mean, the pressure brings reward. So we have the pressure brings reward. Right.

Right. So we would tug, release, treat, tug, release, treat, tug, release, treat. Hold on. That's the box. What, what, what is that? The dog's head is in the box. We pull, pull on the collar or the harness, release, treat. Right. And the same thing with the bang bang. So why do you need the box for that? Bang bang, treat. We don't. So why do you need the box for that? Yep. Good question. I mean, and these are, this is just something that has been in the environmental blindness. No, but can you tell me why do you need the box for that? Just to focus. I mean, I've seen some good results with it, using it, but I don't, I'm not, it's not, not something I use in my protocol training. Um, okay. So that, that's not a good, from what I'm getting, you cannot defend that one. No, I mean, there's, there's different ways to bring about pressure, but for some dogs that are genetically, uh, unstable, or I think that it also is something that when I was taught that. When dogs are unstable genetically, some, some very weak, insecure, spooky dog, you think that putting their head in the sand is better than actually teaching them how to handle pressure directly? No, I think that it could be, um, a baby step to that. But why, why, why, where is the benefit of it? Because I can, I can just use very little pressure and the dog actually can see what's happening because it's important to see it. I can even announce it because that's also important and I can show them how to deal with it in the level that they can. I don't see any use of the box at that point. And you have great points. I mean, this is, and, and whenever we see the box too, we want the dog to have a reaction of like, oh, here we go. Like getting fired up. Um, and then, um, I have a question here. Does the box actually change how the dog and the experiments feel about the other dogs? I don't think so. I think that these are, these are excellent points. And, uh, I think it's also kind of like the position box too. When we use, do you ever use a position box at all? No. Okay. And I think the people utilize those as well. Right. Larry, Larry's here. I don't like, um, no, again, position box, nothing wrong with position box. However, sooner or later you have to take it out. And how you go about it. And when you take it out, is that something actually that's going to happen? That really is what had to happen even to begin with for the dog to understand what the goal of the box is.

And first of all, when you're talking about the box, what, what, because the box is used for so many things, for change of position, for going to place over a jump, for, for, for, I mean, there's like boxes everywhere. Well, the dog starts to look for the box. But before we go to the box, do you have another good one for the dopamine box? So the other thing that you feel that you can defend? I mean, the one thing that I do like is also we click, we click out of the box too. So when we're in the box and then we will click and then to get out of the box. And so we'll put an article in the box and then the dog sniffs the article, click them out to get the reward from us. Okay. So can, why, why can you not do that without the box? You can absolutely. So what is the benefit of doing it in the box? The only thing that I, that comes to my mind is just a focused, the focused space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. The focus space. what is that focus that you are talking about? That's a great question. I mean, it's like putting the blinders on the horse, like taking all distractions away, boom, focus on there, on the box. Right. But I mean, I don't use, I mean, I use the box and I had... So if it's about a distraction, sorry to interrupt. If it's about dealing with distraction and you're trying to isolate something, you can very easily use some vacuum environment that the dog is familiar with, that there is nothing going on. Right. And work without the box. Or if you... I was going to say if you're a really good trainer, but that's very wrong to say. But another option is to create a report trust, cooperation, and motivation with the dog that can handle the outside world. Like if I need to resort to a box to convince my dog to ignore the world, to me that's very poor solution. I get your point. Absolutely. And it brings up this question. Is it the lack of emotion? So would that bring about the lack of consideration of the dog's emotion in this training? Yeah. So this is another kind of... thing I don't... when I train and when I teach, being a person, being a dog, being a parrot, I like to be part. overall, nepupo relies on self-discovery and shaping and the trainers kind of on a standby, just basically reinforcing and forcing the situation. And I think that's... again, like I am very strongly opinionated

and I say what I say, but I think this is a disservice to a dog. Dogs are very intelligent and I think they would rather see me struggling and trying to teach them and be part of the teaching. Like if I wanted to teach them to go to a place, I will actually be like, dude, let's go to the place. That's something any dog will do. I don't need to stand behind and make them figure it out because it's self-discovery because for some reason, I guess the theory is that if it's self-discovery, it's much stronger and much more lasting and much more bulletproof and so on. And I strongly disagree with that as well. What they would call operant where the dog creates through their response a behavior that is then click release to come get the reward and where you're not guiding the dog, the dog has seemingly discovered it on their own and you want to be a part of that. And I get that. And talking to Jay Jack, he said something that made me think of this twice too. It's like... There is always, we got to think of what is the functional outcome of this and what are the mechanisms, what are the constraints and what are the trade-offs. Yes. And the dog... And when I put all this together, I have really... I am actually very puzzled why... how this gets solved as a... that brilliant idea, you know. Yeah. I'm going to be... my Facebook's going to be burning after this. Well, but we have a good question here. Are there any benefits to self-discovery? Because a dog does the behavior, is rewarded, has discovered that this gets them a reward, and they repeat the behavior, and then it gets rewarded again, and then they repeat it again, and so they start to recognize a pattern, and then... Yeah. And then eventually we would name that, and then... and then the dog has discovered this behavior. Is there any advantage or benefits to that? Do you... Or do you believe that that's all bullshit? I think it's all bullshit. I... I... Now, to be very clear, self-discovery happens daily, hourly. It's not like it doesn't happen. You... You leave any living thing alone, there will... Again, there is behaviors, and there is variation, and there is selection of behaviors, and this selection of behaviors happens because some behavior works, and others didn't. This is a... a very normal mechanics, very normal process. However, it all comes down to what is the motivation behind? does what I discover has any serious meaning for me to do it or not to do it? And, you know, you can think of, or anybody that, I don't know who asked that question, but think of any example of that self-discovery, that it's this everlasting, magical situation. And, and I, I strongly believe that I will prove you wrong, whatever that example you will give me.

So, think of something. The dog offers a behavior, so say that you wanted the dog to go to a box, and just, and then jump up on the box, okay, but the dog instead puts his two paws on the box, and then you click and reward that, and then the dog runs back to the box to... Right, so you're going to eventually do some shaping by approximation, and you're going to get the dog on top of the box, and he's going to get paid. Well, even, even not just on top of the box, but the dog offering a different behavior that you weren't specific about. Right, so the two, so now instead of just on the box, the dog is offered two paws. Again, you will go through shaping by approximation, and you will select the next criteria, and eventually you're going to have an end goal, whatever that end goal is. Well, not necessarily an end goal. Sometimes the dog offers a behavior that was not part of our end goal, and now we have a way of rewarding that behavior. Right, you can capture that if you want. That's right. So, okay. But, but, you still have an end goal of doing this, right? Yeah. You still want the dog to get on top of the box. Yeah. And so, you're going to let him figure it out on its own because you believe that it's going to, for some reason, because he discovered it on his own, it's going to be better than if I said, you just jump on here and get the same reward. Yeah. Or, I mean, I mean, do you really believe that? Do I know? I don't. Okay. So, that again is not a valid argument then. No, what I'm saying is that this is what is professed, and this is what is believed will happen. But, but for me personally, I'm a big fan of walking the dog on the place or wherever we want him to, showing him exactly what we want, helping the dog, and because I know how frustrated I would be after, when Jay Jack and I had this conversation about, dude, just show me what you want. Don't just expect me to get it. Show me. Show me what you want because I'm just going to get frustrated at you if you're like, no, that's not it. No, you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's clarity and communication, but I agree with you fully, like the relationship, the rapport, the trust has to be there in order for, for me to be able to show the dog exactly what it is. No, but again, we're kind of, we're, we're veering off and I don't want to let it go for some reason right now. The self-discovery, my argument is that there is no, there is no magic behind it and it's definitely not a deal breaker and a lot of times it's way more time consuming and way more frustrating and the end goal because of that is not any better, the outcome. well, and there's instability with it as well and I guess that would be the frustrating part of it, right, where the dog is frustrated and uncertain. Now, I mean, you've seen

videos of me, you know, we did conversation with Omar, unfortunately, we never could put it out because, you know, how we struggle with the mics, it just became very messy. Oh, it did? I was wondering about that. Yeah, I was wondering where the heck that was. Yeah. So, I mean, talking about Omar Von Wheeler and, you know, his magic that he does and it's all shaping by approximation and, I mean, again, I have so many videos of dogs doing the same, well, not the same, he's overly fixated and he's, you know, that's his life but I can teach a dog to, you know, open the toilet and pee and flush it and close it and whatever shaping, I understand shaping really, really good. I mean, I mean, of course. and there is place for it. Like, if I cannot say, hey, dude, start walking on front legs and I cannot just show him and hope that by mimicking he will do it, then I have to shape it. So, I'm not disregarding shaping the approximation at all costs at all time. I'm just saying that it's not as it's presented that there is a, a certain sorcery and magician there that when it's self-discovered the behavior that has these superpowers, that's absolutely not the case. It's absolutely a myth. It's very misleading actually. That's kind of my argument on that one. We have a comment. Self-discovered behaviors aren't stronger than a top behavior. If you stop reinforcing a self-discovered behavior, the dog will stop doing it just the same as if you stop reinforcing a taught behavior. I kind of missed it. Do they agree with me or disagree? I think it's just a comment. If they agree, I don't have to, but if they disagree, I can pay attention. But, oh, I see it here. Hold on. So let's go around the stronger than thought behavior if you stop. So anything with reinforcement is like that. That's just, you know, that's what differential reinforcement is about too. Like you can, you know, stop reinforcement here, start reinforcement here. The, the, you shift the motivation to do something else because of change of reinforcement, of course, of course. However, if that reinforcement that you use as differential reinforcement stops, that's when people kind of tend to believe that, oh, we use differential reinforcement, we stop reinforcing this one, now we're reinforcing the alternate or other or whatever behavior and that is gone. This is not gone. This is just temporarily replaced because there is a reinforcement here. And the moment this kind of reinforcement here stops, the dog remembers that this is available, that this is still reinforcing. So there is even there to have differential reinforcement work, there is a very, much more interesting and complicated process how to, you know, make that work. But when you stop reinforcement being shaping approximation or being just saying, hey, you'd come on the table, you stop the

reinforcement on both, the behavior is going to start to fade away. That's absolutely normal. Unless we find a way to create self-rewarding, the activity of jumping on the table becomes self-rewarding. But because it's self-discovery, that does not make it self-rewarding. This is very important distinction. Because the self-discovery still relies on external reinforcers. things. So if you want something to last, the most important part is can you make the behavior self-reinforcing? Can you utilize some genetic predisposition, something from the selection, some, you know, again, not to go too far into that. However, again, my bottom line to this self-discovery is that I have no, doesn't mean much. It just sold as a, it's kind of like a snake oil to me. I mean, I would like to hear your point. I mean, I'm always open to, and I have changed my mind many, many times. I've learned my lessons, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't argue. But if you can change my mind, please do, because I'm curious. Well, and the key is, is to become the behavior itself, like you said, becomes the reward, right? And so start to let the self-discovered behavior be known until the behavior itself becomes the reward. And we can use... But that cannot happen. you have an external ring, like you're shaping, and the only reason that shaping is happening is because of your providing reinforcement and your raising criteria. Correct? Right. So, finally, you get to the end goal of what you wanted, and you're still relying on a payoff. not necessarily. We start to fade out the payoffs and through intermittent rewards to keep that dopamine at a higher level. So, random schedule of reinforcement does not create internal reinforcement. It just makes the behavior a little bit more resistant because the dog still believes that maybe I will get some. apples and oranges. Yeah, I mean, I'm listening to you. And keep in mind, too, this isn't my core, right? It's not my core certification. But it's cool conversations. I mean, you know what is the bad thing about these conversations? their conversation to be had and ideas have to be challenged and defended. Well, and I'm not the one who wrote this, right? I would love it if Michael could come on here and talk with you. And that's the other aspect, too, is that when you do these TWC schools, programs, and then you start to have other people teach the program. Let me for a moment because I just thought of something very important that I really, I don't know how many people will watch this, but I'm

sure now that we hit this topics, people will end up listening to this because it's controversial, of course, and that's all it takes. I just want to, as a side note, say, because there is all these rumors always that Ivan doesn't take people that have gone to NEPOPO, or, you know, and this is just like total nonsense and bullshit. Like, I have many people that have gone to NEPOPO, and I am not trying to say, it's not like Karen Pryor, it's like you either use positive reinforcement, or you show colors, and if you show colors, you cannot be part of Karen Pryor. That's not what we do. Like, we have very much respect for anything, just because I would disagree with ideas and concepts that doesn't mean it. And anybody that has NEPOPO is totally welcome. There is never, like, I just don't know where these rumors even come from, but it seems that there is somehow this in the background, back noise, it's like, oh, if you don't NEPOPO, you're not going to be able to go to TWC. It's like, why? Anyway, hopefully you remember where you were going. I just wanted to say this because... Well, and what I was saying is that when you do certify TWC trainers after they go through your school and one of the things that I love about your school is the standard that you keep and that... And just so you know, I wrote you quite a while ago asking if you would accept me in the TWC program and you said yes. Yeah. Yeah. Right? That's proof in the pudding before I really knew you. And also, when I first asked you to do an interview, I remember what you said to me. You're like, well, we disagree on so much. I don't know what we're going to talk about. And I was like, fuck you, dude. I was like, how do you know? You don't even know me, man. Like, that's... But that's how we started off this. And this is what I think is important is that we should be able to challenge each other and have discussions and bring up our points that we disagree with and not be hush-hush about it, but because dogs, at the end of the day, are the ones that benefit from our interaction. And that's why I'm so happy to know you. And eventually, I do want to do the TWC program. I want to learn from you and being able to visit you at your place. But what are... TWC, it's really, it's not like, it's not like, oh, you're certified. Now you're this professional trainer, guru. No, it's like if you pass the test, it basically says that you understand the system and the system is educational. It's just a concept. And you pass the test and you can throw that in the toilet if you want to. No, I'm not following you to dictate how you train dogs. All I care is, okay, you understand the system and you can completely disagree with it, just as I disagree right now with another system. You can totally disagree with it. You still get certified because you've proven that you understand the system. You're proficient. And from

there on, you're on your own. It's just an educational thing. It's not this master. You don't become a master trainer. I don't have any authorities over you. This is not what it's about. Okay. I like that. I like that. Now, what happens when somebody becomes a certified trainer to train TWC? Do you do that, right? No. Oh, you don't. So you're the only place that you can get certified to train TWC? Yeah. Like, I believe that, at least until I can, and at least until I find people that I really believe that they can teach it. Again, they don't have to practice it, but they understand the ins and outs of it, and problems solved within the system. I would love to, but for right now, I think, I really believe that people that come to the school come because of me, to me, to teach it. I really believe that that's the case. I agree. It's wearing me out in one side, but on the other side, it's very gratifying, and as I said, like, very early in the conversation, you know, I always come up with new things. Like, anybody that has done the course, the original course, and anybody that has done it two years after, and anybody that is going today through the course, they're like incredible leaps of what is the next frontier, if you want. The evolution. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how would you describe what is TWC? I mean, I know it's training without conflict is what the acronym is, but how would you describe it? How would you... So, training without conflict, it's a... Of course, there is a little bit of a catchy name there. sometimes people think that, well, we need conflict in order to learn. And, of course, you need conflict sometimes to learn. Conflict is part of the kind a problem solving and a challenge. However, the conflict that I'm talking about is the lack of ability to explain what you want. So, like, when you... Like, if, you know, the difference between dogs and humans, like, we humans understand concepts. We can think abstractly and I can really tell you exactly what to do. And if you're motivated, if I find what motivates you, you will just do it right there and then. With a dog, I cannot instruct a dog this way. So, dogs learn in a different way and they learn through patterns and they learn through the consequences and through the variation and selection and so on. But it's the same end goal, it's just how we go about it, it's different. Conflict is part of, however, when you're trying to teach something. Like, let's say, people say repetition, repetition, repetition. I'm like, I become allergic. Because repetition is only good at certain point, and only if you're repeating something that has benefits and not the other way around. Because you can be repeating nonsense

as many thousand times and it would be a disastrous outcome. So, the conflict, without conflict, the conflict part really is teaching, like, if I can put it in the opposite way, I would say teaching with clarity. And when you're teaching and you're lacking clarity, you're basically just have all these open-ended things and confusion and, well, I'm teaching this, but you're doing this, and then we just don't know how to get to what I really want to teach you. And there is frustration building up, there is emotional status gets infected, there is attached behavior to emotion, so on, so on, this is the conflict that I'm talking about. So, this is what the system is trying to get rid of. So, we have a very direct way of teaching, just as I said, like, you can have the dog struggle with the shaping of the approximation to, I don't know, to teach him to go and play ball or to teach him to make retrieve or to get him on the table. before I go there, I would always search for a much more natural way that I can interact with the dog, that the dog can understand to show them. And it always happens faster, and it's always, yeah, the outcomes are just very different. But that's kind of what, you know, I used to when I, now I don't do anymore, but when I first started giving a lot of seminars on training without conflict, I would go to Europe and I would get a lot of force-free people because the title kind of can mislead somebody that we train without punishment, without aversives, or without something like that. And they get disappointed, but then the people that kind of stay a little longer, they're like very intrigued and they change their minds all the time. From a force-free perspective? Yeah. Yeah, because I mean, they, you know, they come and I'm like, what do you forget about, I can teach you this word the other way, whatever, but what did you come, what did you want to get out of this workshop? And then we resolve it in much faster and much more clear and persistent. And on top of that, of course, there is no fallout and there is no, you know, they walk away happy. it's definitely changing their minds. And it's more relationship based. That's what I, that's what I like to play. I mean, it's a relation, it's an interaction. Like, I can say I'm not happy or I'm disappointed or I'm very excited or I'm just okay. Like, interaction is a very important part in my world. You know? Yeah, I think it's a very important part in all of our worlds, especially when we are making relationships, getting to know people, getting to know truly how to, one of my favorite books

is how to win friends and influence people. Right? And that's where my head is going now. And it's about how do we garner respect, trust, and you said earlier rapport. And I often say rapport is power. When it comes to relationships with human beings, why do we forget that when we're working with another sentient being as a dog? And that's where... So I can tell you, like, I mean, just real quick, like the, the, how I look at things and how it's different, because again, I'm not, I'm not chasing behaviors. Okay. It's not, the behaviors are the, the easiest part. What gets attached to behaviors is emotional states and interaction. So I need rapport, so I can have trust. I've talked about this so many times. If I don't have good rapport with you, I'm not going to have your trust. I cannot gain your trust if I cannot have that rapport. So that would be, I have to find a way how to create that rapport with you. And that's not going to be by food deprivation and that's not going to be by shaping by approximation and being standing by. Once I have trust, I need motivation for whatever we're doing. And once you have the motivation, now we have to find a way how to cooperate. So we both make that happen. And to all this to happen, I need effective communication. I need to have shared goals. I need to have a very good conflict resolution skills. When things go off the rail a little bit, who am I? How do I handle it? When the dog does something, how do we reconcile and how we move on from that point? And then, of course, there is all the ethical considerations and all that, right? I mean, well, it's also, it sounds like you build a majority of your rapport through play, just in interaction, play, trust, exercises. I mean, you can build rapport in so many ways. I mean, being with the dog. You can just take a dog and go running. Yeah. You know? Play does the same thing. It changes physiology, physiology. You know, there is like a model that, you know, you basically can change emotional state. You really can change emotional state to where, like, let's say you didn't eat today. I haven't eaten. And you have to meet somebody and it's an important conversation. You're going to be a little edgy. You're going to be looking at the person and you're going to be like, man, this, I don't know. Like, there is a bunch of very cool studies, research done, like, going to a court. let's say you have a ticket, speeding ticket or whatever. Yeah. And the chances are that if it's close to 12 o'clock before the judge goes into a break, you may not get away with it. Yeah. Or same when they're getting off of work as well. So, right. Lunchtime and then the end of day. And so, to me, going back to the dopamine box and this kind of stuff, you know, it doesn't touches any of what is interesting to me and how to change behavior.

Well, it sounds like... I know I'm kind of bouncing all over the place. It sounds like there's a key element that is being left out here. Or it also sounds like there is an inconsideration of, just like we said earlier, about the dog's emotional... Let me find this one here. Is it the lack of emotion in the training? And I would say to a degree yes. Or consideration of all parties involved because when you are building reports... Sorry, Bill, I got distracted because I only see four posts and there is like at least 19 comments, but I don't know. I'm probably doing something weird. Well, here, I mean, no, there's comments on your posts and those don't show up on my post for some reason. Okay. So because the original post, they have to go to my... Okay, it doesn't matter. If there is anything, you will alert me to, but repeat what you said. Sorry. Yeah, and if you guys want to, if you have a comment or a suggestion, come to my Bow Wow Bill page on YouTube or Facebook and comment there, and then it will show up here. So when I show these comments, that's coming from the original source of the video. So if you want to interact or have any questions or comments for Ivan or myself, and what I was saying is, so I know you and I spend time with you and when, and another thing I want to bring up is the IACP. Are you going to IACP, by the way, this year in LA? I am not going, not because of who's presenting. I am just not going because I am very busy and have a lot of things to do different than that. There is some conflict of schedule, but I will be presenting in the European one. Well, I hope that your schedule opens up and I hope that we get to spend time together there. And my point is being that this is how I feel like we have built rapport and you build rapport with other trainers, other colleagues, and you realize that you like these people that are doing the same thing that you're doing. And so that bums me out. But if I saw you and I take consideration of how you're feeling or your lack of sleep or your lack of not eating, and we make changes to better that situation based on consideration for others. right? And so same thing when we're working with animals is we have to consider their emotional state as well. The dog training industry, as everybody calls it, it's an interesting place. I wish there is more of a martial arts kind of scenario to where you cannot just talk and bullshit and you cannot just say that, oh, I've had these high scores on this, and it's like, what is the high score that you had and what happened? Where were you? Because I've never seen you anywhere, not even in any rankings. So just because you're bullshitting on your website that you have the high obedience score in anything, it's like, okay, it's kind of like, I was just a week ago or a few days ago and we went to watch a baseball game

and it kind of reminded me of all the baseball statistics. there is always, you can always find something in baseball that it's a record and that you are part of it, you know. But, and training thousands of dogs or being in a business so many times or having a podcast or talking to whatever or being in the right circle, this is all marketing and publicity, but your actual knowledge, how do you, like, I mean, I'm kind of asking you, how do you, decide who is a good trainer based on what, on conversations and intelligence of having a good conversation, on past credentials and what credential actually is considered credential and what accomplishment actually is considered accomplishment. I think this is most likely the weakest point in the whole dog training industry. People listen to the wrong people all the time. And I'm not saying listen to me, people, don't get me wrong. But how do you decide, pick a name and tell me, or, you know, since you put me on the spot, pick a name and tell me why do you think that person is a great trainer? What is the, and let's break it down. First, well, I mean, so many of my people that I've worked with, I mean, Bart, I saw the video with Thor, right? And so I went and I met him, I watched him present at the IACP, I watched him put So what did you like on the video of Thor? I like the focus, I like the instant, the instant execution of commands, I like the calm demeanor of his. The demeanor was by no means calm. On Bart's. Oh, okay. On Bart's, like the demeanor of him, of standing. Okay. Okay. Very subtly movement, very subtle movements in the dog, in the dog executing right away. Okay. But then, then there's Omar, right? And being able to, I remember in the podcast when we did the podcast with you, me, and Omar, right? And you were like, why are you here? What questions do you have for Omar? And I said, I don't have any questions for him because I could just ask him a question over the internet. I want to, I want to watch him. I want to know him. I want to touch him. I want to shake his hand. I want to exchange, I call it psychic energy, like, like, like, like, knowing, uh, and, and meeting somebody and spending time with them and watching them interact with their dogs and how their dogs interact with them. And same thing with you, um, with Larry, with Jay, Jack, with... Man, you, you really put me on a, on a very hard place here. Oh, shit. Like, you really put me in a very hard place. and, again, I, I, I have to keep repeating, like, me and Bart, I, I consider him, you know, I mean, he's definitely a, a really, really good trainer. Um, and he has passion and, and I'm sure he sleeps and eats and thinks dogs just as much as I do. He does. Um, the video of Thor. Is it good training? Is it not good training? I probably have my, not probably, of course, I have my opinion. I can break it down in, in, in many,

many details. However, how do you know what is good training? We need to have another, we need to line up 20 people that do, yes, that orchestrate it. We need to take the colors off, we need to take the sticks off, and we need to see, we, we have to have some way of comparing something that it's the same task. Yes. Right? And we need to strip it of all the help and see who does it better. Well, other than that, it's very difficult to say, well, this is brilliant. And the other aspect of this, Ivan, is that I am not a sport dog trainer. Right? And so I'm a pet dog trainer. Right. And I'm a family dog. Right? We're, we're, you know, and maybe there was something that I saw within Bart with Door, but I'll tell you somebody right now that you've worked with that I think is a good trainer. I think he's an excellent trainer. Do you know who I'm talking about? there are many excellent trainers, man. Well, somebody that is, I mean, pretty controversial right now. Oh, Dylan Jones? Yeah. I think he's great. I think he's a great trainer. And I think also showing the before and then the whole process of the training as well. And there's this, there's this young guy, Austin, who I'm, who I'm really, I did a live stream with him as well. And I've talked to Dylan. Again, it's very, it is very, again, I, I mean, I agree with you. Again, Bart is a great trainer, so is Dylan and so are many others. However, we, there is no way of us comparing who is better because of, even if, if I'm rehabilitating an aggressive dog, and even if he has similar problem to what somebody else does, there are many factors and we cannot strip it to where we can really say these are level, equal grounds, who is better. There's so many variables to consider. Right. And not only the variables to consider of the training, but then we have the variables to consider of that particular individual, and then we have the variables to consider of the dogs that they work with on an individual level. Right. Right. To get a dog that's motivated, that's eager, that's energetic versus a dog that is unmotivated, lazy, and just wants to be a couch potato, and how do we approach those situations? And this is why I think that it's important as if you are a good dog trainer, there's no finish line to the learning that you do. And that's one of the things, like I've watched you go down a rabbit hole with a thought that you had. What was that? Do you remember that online, I think it was Michael Shikasio's online aggressive dog seminar? I don't know if he was the one that was putting it on, but when I was there, and that's what I loved about you is that we're learning and we're watching everybody and we're taking the pearls of wisdom that they might have or it might be covered in a bunch of nonsense, but we're willing and able to listen and learn from people that we might primarily disagree with.

And I think that that is the goal here too, is that once you think that you have all of this just figured out, that you're dead in the water, that it is a constant evolution, not just as an individual, but as an industry as well. Yeah, without a doubt. I mean, no question about it. And getting deep with it too, and getting nuanced with it as well. But I think that there's, it's just such a big question. And at the end of the day, man, looking at the interaction with the dog and the person. Yeah, so, so on the, I will give you an example with puppies, you know, just breeding dogs forever and testing puppies, and selecting puppies for different people and whatever. It's very easy. You don't need no experience to say which puppies are insecure and shy and unstable, which are more resilient and more outgoing and more playful. people. And then there is the five in the middle that you still have to kind of put them somewhere. And this is where the real skill comes in place. And also sometimes, you know, something that's considered very shy or very difficult actually has a good purpose and you can, well, that's going in a different direction. But again, the hearsay and, you know, as I said, I don't want to repeat myself. There is like way too many ways to say I'm a really good trainer trainer and then many people can point to that trainer that they are very good trainer, but based on what? And once you get to based on what, that's when it becomes interesting. Because what do you compare it to? What do you compare it to? How do you define when somebody is a good trainer? one? This is a good one. So, I can tell you who talks well. I can tell you who, again, like the two extremes and these in between. To me, training, there is certain talent. And what I'm looking for is, again, it's probably very different. It's not just behavior. And that behavior, how is it controlled at the end? And how consistent that behavior is? And compare that behavior to another trainer that can do something similar. This is kind of how I would look. However, I don't know, I feel very confident to see, like, let's say, if it's a, just how you, you know, let's say, you're using aversive, how you use the aversive, how you interact, if it's with

food, or if it's through play, it takes me very little time to put you in a certain category. Very little time. What about creativity of being able to utilize, like you said, when you look at a puppy, we have a very confident dog, we have a very skittish or insecure dog, we have the dogs in the middle, what about the eclectic knowledge base needed to use different, different approaches to shape and to get, get the relationship built and the behavior exhibited that you would like? Yeah, so, that, that would be, again, like, I would always, for me, speed is very important, how fast something can be communicated and be learned, what does it take? I just lost my thought. Knowledge base, so you got speed, how quickly it can be communicated and learned? When you, when you, when you can communicate something in a timely fashion, that means that you have clarity and you understand that there can be five different ways and you may jump from one to another, but ultimately you can accomplish it extremely fast. Okay. do you have a dog and at the same time, you have a dog in a very positive emotional state. It's not dodging bullets. It's not eihuahua and rambles and unicorns. There is understanding, there is clarity, there is reliability. ability. And when I say this, I know that people will say, well, I see this and I see this, but if you sit with me, I'm not going to do this for the whole world here on social media, but next time you come to Florida, you pick somebody and we watch a video of them, either competing or training or whatever, and I will break it down for you very, very, fast. And I will point to you the things that I would like and the things that I don't like. And I will also tell you how it can be done different, if it can be done different. Or I also can say, whoa, I didn't think of that, that's really fucking awesome. Yeah, I love it when that happens. Of course, that's an option, it's on the table. That's what makes it interesting actually. And that can come from somebody who is brand spanking new. That's right. Not just a veteran. That's why I like speaking with veterans and people that have been in the industry 30, 40 years, longer than I've been alive. And that's what I like, even talking to people who've been in the industry five years or less, one year, even. I'll talk to people and sometimes they blow my mind or sometimes they just remind me of what I do and why I do what I do. And that's another reason why I like going to these conferences and meeting new trainers. Conferences are dangerous, in my opinion. And the reason they're dangerous is because of how speakers are selected. I think it's extremely dangerous because the moment you invite a speaker, somehow

it comes with a subliminal understanding that they really have something of value. And they may, but along that one thing that have, there is a whole package that is very shitty that goes along. Or it's rainbows and unicorns, as I said. So, I really have a very, I'm kind of torn because it's good to have this, but then who is to select speakers? Because if I select speakers, I probably will select somebody that 99% of the people will work that doesn't know. Why? You know, so we do have different understanding, just as we have different takes of how we train dogs, but it comes down to how we can compare what is the criteria, how we can strip the noise and really see who is a better trainer. This is probably the most interesting part for me. So, yeah, in the conferences, there is a lot of times very young or not young, but young in terms of their development trainers, and they absorb, they're like sponges, they're writing notes, they're really thinking that this is some, I'm going home and I'm doing this, you know, and I'm just like, fuck, I want to walk out, but if I walk out, everybody's going to see me that I'm walking out, I don't have answer to this. However, right now, and I'm not talking IACP, I'm talking all conferences because I, believe it or not, I watch them all. You know, the moment you walk on that stage, you come up and you have this authority. You're a thought leader in the industry. Yes, you are. And it's a very dangerous place to be. And I don't think we have a good direction. Is there anybody that Why do you think we're getting this all positive trainers in IACP, for example? What do you think is the idea behind? I haven't really put much thought to it. I never was a member of the IACP. I just became a member because I think that it is valuable to have a united front. Very much so. Very true. Right. And I had a wonderful time in Savannah, but I've been to 11 conferences, never was a member until this year. I think it's important to be a member as much as I mean, you can see I clearly can disagree with a lot of things. how. I think it's important to have disagreements and I think that it is. I don't know, maybe they're trying to appeal to a wider audience. Right. I don't know. I'm looking forward to seeing Denise Fensi. I'm looking forward to seeing the people that and so let's take Denise Fensi. What what do you think of Denise Fensi? How do you I don't know much about her and so that's why I'm looking forward to seeing her and looking forward to seeing what she has. So let's say she has a very nice presentation that is very logically and very well structured. Okay. She's a very, let's,

I'm not saying, I mean, let's pick a different name. Let's say whomever, Karen Johnson. Okay. Hopefully there is not such a person. And let's say Karen Johnson speaks very well and he has a very good logic and he puts things in such a way that makes sense to you. Yes. But you don't see it in practice. How do you, how do you buy something just on, I'm telling you it works because it works for me. I don't buy it works all the time. I don't buy it until I see it applied. I see it work or I compare my experience with various dogs and be like, well, it might work for that particular dog, but it would not work for this dog, that dog, or this dog. I would take my experiences and just like when I started in the industry, Ivan, I was one of those force-free people. I was the person that was like, you know, all treats and then I looked at the dog in front of me and I remember having this thought of like, this should work. Why isn't this working? Why is this dog becoming so dysregulated when this should work of what I've known and what I've learned? and that took me on the journey to learn from as many people as I can and to apply what I've known and learned from the people. Yeah, but very likely the person that you try to follow their ideas can say, well, you didn't really get what I'm talking about and you're doing it not the way I'm talking about so you need to step back and you need to take time. Again, it's very easily, you can get in this loop and there is no way out of it. And you can bounce from one trainer or one methodology to another and still be in that loop. You're not evolving. That is my opinion. Have you looked at Denis' fancy credentials? No. All right, so why would you say that you're looking forward to listening to her? like what you said that... Because like you said, I guess it's because she is being selected. Because people talk. Yeah. Right. Right. That's kind of what I'm saying. That's kind of... That could be dangerous. Not... It can be. It is extremely dangerous. It just puts you in a... It's a very... Yeah. Let me see here. And then we go to, well, I'm a sport trainer. I mean, not me, but whomever's presenting. Or I'm not a sport trainer, but I'm only pet trainer, or I'm only aggression trainer. It's like, okay, you're just trying to kind of avoid actual direct challenge of what you can do. I just want to, I mean, I guess to find out what she's all about. I don't know. I mean, that's a good question. And then a lot of them, like a lot of the force-free people that kind of bounce around and bounce around. It's not, again, I, you, you, you know, you have this pretty good well-known names of trainers that, you know, they will present here or they will present here or they will have podcasts here or they will have podcasts here. And they,

they're kind of like a chameleons, like they're just trying very, you know, very smart way to please the audience they're speaking to right now. But they never really stand and say, this is like, this is my position. like if, like for example, you know, take electric colors or shock colors or whatever you want to call it. It's like, are you trying to ban electric colors or no? And if you do, why? And if you don't, why? And if you start to wiggle around, you are just losing my respect at that point. Because the moment you say, well, it depends, and well, there is this, and it's like, no, it's like, what is your understanding of a topic, whatever it is. I mean, I just picked electric color, but whatever it is. But don't wiggle around. This is when I'm having conversation with people, I would appear rude, and they would blame it, like, oh, he's smoking cigars, he's so disrespectful. Leave the cigar alone. Let's just have the conversation, you know. like, I'm really asking direct question, and I don't, I know enough that I'm not going to let you wiggle around this question, just like how I didn't let you, you know, dance around the box, or the whatever, or name it when it's all, when it's all good. What was it? How was that saying go? When to name the behaviors. Like, there's just a lot of things like this in dog training that are very interesting, you know, but I don't know. What do you see? Comments, whatever. I don't know. Okay, we'll go to the comments. I know I'm pissing people off. No, no, but you're talking, and you're sharing your thoughts, and I think that's why I do these conversations. The thing is I train dogs. That's all I do. I train dogs, and I compare myself. what about so, and I want to fall back onto where I was talking about the eclectic knowledge base because of the variables that are constantly changing. I always tell people we have the environment, we have the person that is handling the dog, and then we have the dog itself. And what works for one dog might not work for another dog. And we have these tools, methodologies, approaches that might be more effective, with this particular animal. Do you believe that that's true? And that might not work with another? Again, like this again, it's you're leaving the door wide open. So there is nothing that I can say besides yeah, I agree with you. Simply because I have no idea where you're going with this. however, however, I will ask you to get specific because there is no question that certain things universally work or do not work. And just as there is no question that some dogs are genetically predispositioned to do A, B, and C, and the other ones may be XYZ. So what are we comparing? What is the end goal and how you go about it? So unless we get specific, we're basically going to, I can talk the nice talk. I can agree with you and eventually we can leave this.

I'm not talking you, I'm just hoping you understand what I mean. But eventually at the end of the conversation, we can be, I will tell you that you're really good and I will expect that you will return the favor and tell me that I'm really good. And then some other people that are listening are going to say, these two guys are really good. What a nonsense. That's a waste of time. That's just conversations. There is no ground for nothing. So what are you really talking about when you say that? That we need to have, I mean, I guess I'm still leaving it wide open with that. I mean, we need to have a large knowledge base, but no knowledge also of when and where to apply the proper action to get the behavior that we want. Does that make sense? No, no, it does not. Because again, like the, we should be able to strip down, like, just kind of peel the onion of the noise and let's see what are we really talking about. Like, like, something more concrete, something more specific. And then a conversation can happen. Just like the conversation I had with, I don't know when it was the most frustrating conversation that I had with Susan Garrett, that I was trying to, she was trying to show me how she fixed the dog not to chew on a dumbbell. And I'm like, well, how did you do it? And she cannot say how she did it. And she went around and about for probably 35 minutes in that podcast until I finally gave up. And this is what really bothers me in dog training. You know, you, you, you can be repeating, you can be doing something very good in that stage. But that's, let's say, stage three and you need to get to stage seven to complete everything. I don't give a shit how good you are in stage three. How do you move the wheels from there? And then how do you problem solve? And then how are you going to reconcile? And then what really is going to be the end result? And how we compare that end result to something else? It's not easy. Not that I don't have the answer. That's why I said that it would be so easy if we do it UFC style to where it's like, okay, yeah, you talk, you're good, let's roll, go. Let's just see. Yeah. Well, let the dog be the proof, the pudding, and the interaction. But when you say, well, you work with the dog in front of you, or, well, it depends, well, it depends on the owner. Like, if there is so many exits in a conversation, I'm not interested in the exits. I'm trying to narrow it down to actually really having the conversation. And that's where I appear very rude. I don't think it's rude. I think that it's thought-provoking. I think it's challenging, and I like it. Because it makes you strive to do better, to be better. And everybody, I genuinely believe that the majority of people that are training dogs, that's where

they want to be. They want to have good product, they want to be good to dogs, they want to, you know, have families be successful or competitors be successful or whatever. Like, there's no question in my mind. There are some extremely fake influencers that are, that's all they, like, I, it's mind-boggling because just the sheer amount of posts that are made, it tells me where their head is. you cannot possibly train one dog in the quality that probably you can give to that dog simply because you're not training the dog and you're chasing likes and subscribers. on top of that kind of really just, yes, you become a name and most people drink the Kool-Aid, but I can promise you that there are other trainers, me included, that are just watching it as pure entertainment at nighttime and having a blast, just enjoying the circus. It is a circus, man. Well, one of the things that I remember when we did that podcast, too, one of the things that I found very refreshing, because if you were to watch me with my dogs out here on my property, I mean, you would probably think that I need a dog trainer in some ways, because I let my dogs just be dogs. I let them run around and be... Yeah, and that's another thing. That's actually you're bringing an interesting point, because I would like to believe that most trainers are allowing their dogs to be stupid most of the time and be controlled when needed to be controlled. And if I have to call him five times and he's not coming, it's my fucking dog. He doesn't need to come right now. And he knows it and I know it. And sometimes I'm like, okay, I'm just going to shut the door and you're going to come eventually. I don't care, because I don't care. But how do we go about how we compare? This is the big challenge. It's a very big challenge. Because if we find a way how to compare, then we're going to actually, just like how UFC has rankings of fighters, and that constantly changes. We can have that. Right now, this is a chaos. for the majority of people that are starting and that don't know how to wean the weeds from the flowers, you know. Yeah, Jace says competition, and speaking of UFC, competition seems to be the only way to prove results. The rules are the same, the objectives are the same, collars are off, everyone does the same routine, then you get to see who gets the best score. Yeah. It's very, very interesting stuff. Like, this has been, you know, I know that many people, I know everybody understands what I'm talking about, but a lot of people disagree with what I'm

saying, and a lot of people agree with what I'm saying, and the people that agree with me on this are the people that, maybe not in those, but maybe in some other areas, they understand how rankings, how, what credentials and accomplishments in whatever the area is, there is some way of comparison, and it's not, it's not vague, by no means, it's actually the opposite. A very cool one though, if somebody ever comes up with this, and again, there is plenty of, again, I may sound very rude, there's plenty of pet trainers and they would say, well, I have no interest of competing and testing myself against anybody else, and I understand that, it's not like what I'm doing, I'm not suggesting that everybody should do this, this is like what I'm doing is absolute madness. Do you think that the art aspect, like if we were to compare artists, that it's, I've often said that dog training is an art and a science, do you think that that has any consideration with your question? Sure. What is an art? I mean, there was a fucking banana taped with a duct tape. Do you remember this? That was sold for, I don't know how many millions of dollars is an art, right? Yeah, right down by you. Okay, so just because it was sold for this amount of money, is that, what are we actually talking about? Well, that's what I'm saying is like, what, what, who determines, who determines that? Right. And how do we determine that? What's the criteria? And that's the tricky part, because like you can, you know, like, hats off, if you get the job done and your clients are happy, brilliant, but God still does not compare you to the other trainer that also has done the same, you're still not equally the same trainer. Absolutely not. Like, absolutely not. Not on the same, maybe it's a different, are you talking about like a universal, like a universal? well, again, like I don't, I mean, for me, it's easy, like I can say, well, this is what I've done in certain sport, and I have compared myself to the best of the world in this sport many times, athletes, and I know exactly where I stand. Having said that, I also understand, and it's a valid point, that many good pet trainers will say I absolutely have zero interest to do that. Totally get it. However, how do I compare you? because you've been successful with, let's say, 30 dogs, or 300 dogs, or 3,000 dogs, or 30,000 dogs? Well, there can be another trainer that has trained only two dogs, and still can be way better trainer than Neil.

I don't know the answer, man. It's a tough one. Yeah. I'm going to have to contemplate it. But at least for, you know, when we think of... Yeah. No, not, not, I don't know. I don't know. But your point being is that with these conferences, that they need to be careful on who they put on the pedestal, or provide the social proof that this person is legit. Absolutely. Yes, man. They absolutely do. But again, how do you make that decision? There is no criteria. So again, I mean, let's take Denise Fancy. So what, you've watched, you've heard her name. She has a fancy academy. she does speaking. She has some accomplishments. I know these and Finzi from conversations with people at AKC obedience trial. Though, I recall, Pat Stewart of the Canine Paradigm has spoken highly of her several times. Right. it's all and so again, like, like, like, you have Denise Fancy, you have Pat Stewart, you have, how do you, how do you compare them to how, what is that you compare them? Because there is a, the one has academy, the other one has a good podcast. They talk nice, they teach people, they are productive, they, they definitely do some good things, but how do you tell me which one is a better trainer? And how do you compare them? How, how would you compare Denise Fancy to myself, for example? Uh, I don't know enough about her to compare her to you. I don't know, I would, I would assume not even on the same paradigm. I don't know. Okay, forget me, how do you compare her to Pat Stewart? Um, or, or how do you compare? Pick two, two trainers that you know well. Maybe I don't compare. Maybe I, I, I've always had the attitude of, of always being, learning from people instead of comparing them. But learning from people, learning from people, and I know now that you mentioned Jay, and hopefully he still sticks around, learning from people can be, not just wasted time, but can be extremely dangerous for you, if you have a certain goal. So if we go back to martial arts, there are these magicians that do no contact, that go like this, and 20 fucking people are on the floor. And they do it long enough that actually they start believing themselves, and then eventually somebody smacks them on the face and they're like about to cry. Yeah, when the real world hits them, literally. But they have followers, they have believers. Same thing with religion. They do not want to compare. The priests that wave their jackets and they exercise people or whatever, and then I think it's very similar. Somebody saying Landry has an interesting point, which I agree with, pet dog training criteria, number of lives saved, dogs and their owners. Okay, so the one, again, very solid argument. Somebody can save

25,000 dogs and somebody can save five dogs. The quantity is not what is the deciding factor of who is the better trainer. It absolutely cannot be. The philosophy I mean, yeah, no contact is a philosophy. The results? Compare. It's only when you compare. The results, again, being a pet trainer, you must be one of this really awful, like, extremely awful people that basically somehow the animal care and the police come and take your dogs. You need to be that kind of bad. Other than that, you're in the stream. You're moving on and you're successful and you're making money and in the eyes of a pet owner, you're on a pedestal. simply because you know more than they do. And you've helped them. Exactly. The problem that they didn't resolve. Right. But by no mean that can be a comparison. Now, if we compare to where some, regardless of which camp, you have a dog that the one camp failed the dog and gave up and the other one fixes it, that's still not a good model. You know, because now ideology comes into as a factor too. It's like, well, are we doing this or are we, is that okay or is that an, what is it, you know? I mean, it's a deep like, for me, it's super entertaining, but it's also, I feel bad for people that sign up to defend themselves on the street thinking that they can pull some magic and hurt somebody without touching them. I feel awful for them. You know, just as I feel awful for police trainers that go to some really shady seminar just because they are presented as the best modern new thing and it's other nonsense, but they don't know. But I can break it down, but should I break it down? What is the, why? why would I need to be this, you know, I don't have time to just fight on the internet with people, just do your thing, whatever. I mean, I'm probably old enough at this point that it's complicated. complicated. Yes, it is. It is very complicated, but you're, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how, what that would look like, the comparison model. one thing people can do is be just a little smarter of, of,

you can't because you don't know what you're looking at, you know, like, just like I can, I can look at a painting, and an artist can look at the same painting, and a bullshitter can look at the same painting, and the artist can say, well, that's a joke, and the bullshitter can say, this is an incredible masterpiece, and now I have to decide which one to listen to. That's why I was asking about the art aspect of this, and is it in the eye of the beholder, is it in the interpretation? Well, in learning, there are certain laws, and there is, you know, to some extent, again, the really awful ones are very quickly exposed, very, just, it's ridiculously funny for me. However, it's also ridiculously frustrating for me that there are thousands of people that believe, that they can learn something from them. And that's just the nature of it. Well, it's also, I mean, there's a law of freedom with learning. What do you mean by that? When learning is more effective, when the learner has the freedom to choose, explore, and direct their own process, I'm just looking at laws, the principles of learning, laws of learning. Here, I'll show you. So, when you said, so we have the primary laws of learning. Now, this is Thorndike. That's Thorndike. I can talk to you about Thorndike for three days. Yeah, but we have the readiness exercise effect, but down here is what I was looking at, the law of freedom. Right? Learning more effective when the learner has the freedom. But here's the learner must... Again, the laws of Thorndike are, they really don't, they're not relevant to the conversation we're having. Although I can go in incredible depth on this, that I can break the AIs on this very quickly. I'm not disregarding them, I'm actually, we teach this in the school. But it's a... Dog training is an art. It's a good way to say it. Yeah. And it gives you freedom to basically have different options and not to be rigid in the approach. If you have the knowledge, you can pick which will be the most appropriate for that particular moment in time. The art and the science and the freedom of your interpretation. But again, this does not compare you to... too. Like, let's say we can have... You can have your art and I can have my art and you're good in your art and I'm good in my art and eventually we shake hands and everybody thinks that we're both really good in art. Well, one is better. You're better. That's what I'll say.

When I'm talking, you know I'm not really talking you and I'm just painting a bigger picture. And if we're talking art, it's like, okay, well, what art are we talking? Is it a sculpture? Is it an abstract painting? Is it a... I mean, there is endless options of art. So if you're good in this, are you really good overall in art or are you just in this one little thing and if you're good in that little niche, how do you compare yourself to the other that are just as good in that niche? Right? I have a couple comments here too. Trainers are teachers. Though, trainers are teachers, though. We measure teachers on how their students pass standardized testing. But we also witness when the teacher starts teaching to pass a test. They stop teaching the student to truly understand the material. Well, there's teachers that teach, but there's also teachers that teach how to think. Is that... Or there's teachers that teach from rote memorization critical thinking. Does that make sense? Denise Fenzie gave up on her dog. She had it from a puppy that was super reactive. I don't think Ivan has. to say you... Yeah, but again, even this is... You know, like I can see how somebody would give up on a dog, you know? Me too. Maybe just not... It's not your dog, you know? You don't drive and you... Or maybe... As a pet dog trainer... It's not the dog for you. Maybe it's a dog for somebody else. It's not going to take you where you want to be or you don't want to deal with certain things that you... You know? So giving up on a dog, it's also not a good criteria for me. It's kind of... It's a good way to backstab a trainer. There are many ways to do that, of course. I've had... As a pet dog trainer, I've had my clients give up their dog. It was... Because again, like, could... Let's take that situation with Denise. Like, let's say, the question... The real question here would be, if she really wanted to keep the dog and make the sacrifices that she needed to make because of that dog, would she be successful to keep the dog? And I would argue that, yes, she would be. However, she said, this is just... Why? Why would I need that dog when I have to now just rearrange my wife? And sometimes it's your choice. You have choice to make. That's not a good criteria to say if you're a good trainer or no. dog is a good dog. In fact, I think that it would make you a better trainer to understand your capabilities of being able to... what this dog requires. Again, it's very, extremely subjective. Yes. Like, there's so many components, so many factors why something like this can happen. that just just saying plain right out that, well, you suck as a trainer because of that. Of course, if this is a social media war, I can see how this comes in place and, okay, that's fine. However, like, deep inside

of me, I, that's by no mean a way of judging if you're a good trainer or no. Absolutely wouldn't be. Let me see. Who's on the other end of the disagreements? We have so many comments, man, here. Let's hear. Let's hear. Ivan mentioned a while ago that his successor in TWC need to have a good understanding of the system and not necessarily practice it. When you hold that opinion, why does he contradict himself when he says a good logical presenter without practice is not good? Yeah, so, maybe, maybe I, I didn't explain it well or maybe whomever posted this didn't understand it. There is theoretical and there is practical test. So, I need to see that you have theoretical knowledge and the theoretical knowledge is strictly that you will be challenged on the material that I'm teaching you. Do you understand it or not? And then the practical knowledge will be can you apply it or not? And if you can, that means that you understand my concepts and ideas. And that's where it ends. Now, are you better trainer than somebody else? I cannot make that claim. There is no base to make such claim. hopefully that kind of helps. I don't know. Yeah, I like Kashi a lot. He's over in India. Let me see if you guys have any questions. Yeah, see, I don't like it at all. Let's see. It's a good point. Instead of regulation, we have to see. It's a good point that instead of regulations, we should have a way to see what each trainer is about because of their lot of fluff and, of course, a lot of good. Absolutely. And especially when we live in a world of curated social media where people can put up. What was that comment again? Put it back on. It's a good point. Instead of regulating, we should have a way to see what it is about because I'm trying to read them before I post. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, I have a lot of confidence in my ability to do great work with a pet dog. I have my first sport dog a few months. Ian and I have been slapped in the face too many times to count. And that as me, as a pet dog trainer, that's why I sought out working dog, sport dog people, even though I don't have any interest in competing myself. I know that there's things that I can learn from them. And maybe that's why what attracted me to Bart watching him with Thor that I, and a lot of times, like, I don't know what I don't know, but it was impressive to me. at that time. Trainers and teachers, we already did that one. Okay, we're coming back. Unfortunately, let's see here. I haven't read this yet. Unfortunately, Ivan is tired of all the current going on and is getting ambassionably real about the way important things are trivialized today and dangerously. Everyone is an expert. Same goes for scientists. he has had enough. Yeah, and it's not, I wish I have an answer to it, but I don't. But somehow we need to be a little more cautious and realistic and

question reality a little bit. I do not have the answers to it, you know? Well, there's a saying that says, learning is the answer. What is the question? And I think posing the question is where we start. It's like, how do we evaluate? How do we compare who is really good? And what are the credentials? What are the nuances of knowledge? What are the applications? I think none of them is teaching reading body language. I think that none of them are teachers how to accurately read the dog body language and that's when they apply methods that make shit worse. Hold on. do you remember when we were watching that seminar? And I think they were talking about body language and all three of us disagreed on what they were stating about what's going on in this dog's mind. And that can be subjective as well. And that's where rapport and relationship and knowing this dog. So I would argue that this is hard to be subjective from one point on. but the core of it cannot be subjective because you can see or it's a wrong way to say because it's not true actually. I see and it kind of sucks that most people don't see it and it just bothers me. But you should be able to see what motivates that particular dog, how that dog feels, how, what the performance is like. And, and then you don't even need to compare it. You can really put it in a certain category of have you seen something better than that. And, you know, there is always like all the trainers that, you know, the ones that I kind of like, man, this is just not good training. It's maybe not horrible. It's not that it's destroying the dog, but it's just not good training. But I'm looking at specific things. And how do you learn what to look for and how do you learn not to listen to the noise, the convention of the speech and the analogies and the endless cool phrases, but how do you strip all that down, just shut the fucking volume off and watch and learn what a dog, you can have motivation, you can have motivation for many different reasons. You can go, fuck, I just need to do this, or you can have, I really want to do this. I mean, there's just so many ways that you can evaluate two minutes of training. yeah, they don't, like the, you know, it's all about who

talks the talk, who has the good phrases, who has the analogies, who has the, you know, the slang, the, the jargon, shut it off, mute, mute, mute it, see what they're trying to teach or what they're trying to demonstrate and mute their explanation. Especially when you don't, because the explanation influences you. Like, you know, I mean, this is how snake oil is sold. This is how you drink the Kool-Aid. I make you believe it. Yes. I fuck with your eyes and your intuition. I make you listen to me. Let me see. If I'm honest, I compare trainers I know in person by watching from afar. They manage and handle dogs outside of any formal context. 30 seconds can tell a lot. It is in being dedicated and honest about your work, constantly improving and aiming for the top, top, top. And many think they know more than what they do and talk more than they should. I mean, there's a lot of egos, too. And there should be. I mean, you know, that's, I get that and I actually like that, you know. A lot of times it's without any base, without any foundation, because it's unchecked. well, and I think a degree of this, too, is that we can make the problem go away by saying we've tried everything. And when I say make the problem go away, and your lack of ability and knowledge, oh, hold on, my wife, my wife's going to go teach her yoga class, and I love you. Okay, sorry, I had to give my wife a kiss goodbye, is that ultimately the dog pays for our lack of understanding with their life, when people are quick to euthanize a dog based on the knowledge that they don't possess. Sure, and these are, this kind of goes into the kind of extremes we were talking about. So, you can say, well, we tried everything, and, well, we didn't try this, or this was against your ideology, so you definitely did not want to go there, even though, who knows, maybe would have saved the dog's life. But either way, being successful and saving that dog's life, or recommending euthanasia, still does not have a clear comparison to somebody else. Jessica, you know, like, like, like, what were you going to say, Ivan? Like, what she's saying is very kind of what I'm trying to say. The variables, that's it. There's so many variables here. So, Jessica says, in order to compare trainers, there has to be clear measurables, and there aren't. So many variables. That's absolutely true. I mean, there's too much flexibility. Let's say there is pet training. Oh, look at that. There's too much flexibility in learning to cause wisdom. Let's say we, you know, in pet training is the most trickiest one. every once in a while there is these challenges on the internet. You take a dog, I take a dog.

Have you seen one of those taking place? No. No. There's challenges. There's challenges. Right. There's never taken place. And there is a good reason why they don't take place. Because one will get exposed. One will be not as good as the other. But you read somebody's credentials and it's like, yeah, I've presented to so many conferences. I am whatever, whatever. I still don't know how you train dogs. I have no idea. You know? And there is basic dog training and there is average dog training and there is an advanced dog training. But we kind of put it all into the same little ball and it's like, you're good, I'm good, let's just stay like this because it's, you know, we don't want to be, you know, attacking each other and be, yeah. And I get that too. I mean, again, I do not have the answers to it. I wish I do. If I did, I will make suggestions immediately. Yeah, I'm going through mobile as well. It's been a long time since I talked to Ivan. Competition. I mean, there's a reason why we have competition. There's a reason why we have UFC. competition in everything. Yes. Even the little kids that go and do mathematics competitions, you know, they're all geniuses. I mean, he's six years old and he does better mathematics and algebra and so on than I will ever do. However, is he better than this one? We don't know. unless they get together and they get to solve the same puzzle. Tim says, I wish we could talk more, talk about how to train dogs rather than who's better than the other. Sure. How do we talk about how to train dogs? I mean, that's a... Who do we find out who the authority is that we learn from? Older dogs, five plus that play but still but play with them still. Older dogs plus five years that play but play with themselves still fixable to get them to play with their human? Training is a conversation. Can your trainer just reiterate methods or techniques or can they truly read it and influence a conversation without food or tools? Yeah. It's not... Again, training is... It's really instruction. Just like as we were talking originally, like how you would tell a kid or how I would tell you, hey, go bring me another cigar because this one is gone, you know? Now, you will do it if I offer you something or if I made you like me, you will do it, or if I force you and you avoid some bad stuff happening to you. There is many ways that I can convince you

to do it, but I will very quickly instruct you and then we can manipulate you one way or another to make it happen. With a dog, it's going to be a very different way that I will have the dog go and get the cigar, right? I'm looking for the picture of you giving me a cigar. My first Cuban cigar. So it's a controlling, you know, how do we interact and how do we control the behavior? Well, how do we interact? And there is many ways. There you are. Yeah. First Cuban cigar, sorry, I had to, when you talked about giving me a cigar. Yeah, it was a good one, man. We have Kirabel asking about why does Ivan refuse some people from learning a system? We talked about not like you do allow ne popo. If Ivan's goal is to improve the industry through education, why does he turn around people seeking to learn more? care? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, me and Kirabel have said this privately. He's tried to make it public. It's very easy, you know. It's not a, I, I have no intention to teach everybody in the world. I'm a human. And as a human, I like to interact with some people and I don't like to interact with other people. And there can be various reasons and I'm talking directly to you, Kirabel. I just want you to understand that this is not a, you cannot make me or paint me as a, you know, somebody that is keeping a secret or it's not wanting to teach the whole universe of my system. Just like I, just like you, just like any person, we like some people, we don't like some people and there is reasons for, and sometimes the reason may not be even legit reason. But I by no means feel like I am there to change the world. I am changing the world. I'm giving what I want to give and I'm very happy to do that. you know, like there is sometimes somebody's going to say, well, I'm just watching at my ping pong table here and somebody's going to be, can we play ping pong? I'll be like, no. And I may have 20 different reasons why. And the very next person can walk in and ask me and I can say, okay, I'll play with you. But you cannot turn this into anything more than just being a human. It's not a, I am not Cornell. it's very different. So hopefully that kind of sticks in and things change on top of everything. It's not like, you know, we all can change how we see things and what

we think. can, you know, it's never, I don't believe on never, ever. However, I don't like when, you know, you do some public letter to Ivan or you tag me to some post. If you tag me to a post, why? I clearly don't want to engage. If I did, I would. But, you know, you gotta have some respect to that. And then to say that, well, he's not a real teacher because if he was a real teacher, he will just give it to the whole world. Maybe somebody does, maybe somebody doesn't. These are, you know, again, there are many, many different factors. I don't necessarily need to go there. It's not a, just as I gave an example with the ping pong, you know. Yeah, well, it's your prerogative, it's your school, and ultimately it's your decision, and it should be respected, and that's all we can do. I think it's just, yeah, I mean. So, with the comment earlier about older dogs playing with themselves, you know what Larry says? I'm sure he said something cool. Larry, I don't need to have that in my mind, dude. I'm going to go up to sit in the steam room. How would, so have you ever, I mean, Dylan, we talked about this a little bit. So, Dylan? Larry needs to come to my place soon. Let's go, Larry. I'll go with you, buddy. Larry, you say the date and we'll make it happen, man. And we'll smoke cigars and we'll actually have a freaking podcast with good audio. We can work it. And Jay Jack's here too. But Elkin says, this is what I like about Dylan, is that he's working the TWC program in the pet dog world. So, there is translation there. Would you agree? And would you ever think about how to structure a design for competition for pet trainers? Again, like the, I will tell you interesting and not just Dylan. I mean, there is tons of pet trainers that come through the school and I force them. Initially, I have to force them because they cannot put two and two together and see how one can help the other. but again, what competition does is it strips layers. Yeah. And it deals with controlling behavior in variety of circumstances with competing reinforcers, with just some monotonous repetitive tasks and still maintaining interest. You know, like, especially, it's very different when we're talking about, like, let's say, rally or flyball or agility or dog diving, nothing against them, but they do not deal in the aspect how protection training does. And then, in protection training, you have very different sports that pay attention to certain things, and there are sports that don't pay attention to. It's kind of more vague. And when, again, when you're able to say, okay, well, they both can make it happen, but who makes it

better? Who makes it faster? And who makes it lasting? And then you have to define what is better and what is, you know, what is the proper emotional state and so on and so on. And then you have that comparison. However, as a pet trainer, it's a very beautiful playground that can teach you how to control behavior and how to manipulate emotions and how to basically become a very good trainer and all of that if you have a good teacher, you will learn how to put this in any aspect of dog training. Because, again, ultimately it comes down to how can I tell you what to do and you will tell me that you can do it this way or that way, but I will insist that it has to happen this way. And then how I go about it, how you act about it. Just as I said, I can tell you to go and get a cigar and say, Ivan, I love you, I'm running to grab your cigar. There is no other reinforcement for you. You just do it because you like me. Dogs do that too. Some trainers hate that, what I just said. They absolutely don't believe in that. Like, I can, you know, the example with the cigar, like I can tell you, Bill, go grab the cigar, please. And you will just go, yeah, hold on. And you will do it just because you like me, for no other reason, just because you want to do something good for me. That's the only reason. It's not to better yourself, it's not to get anything out of it. You will do it just because we are cool with each other. Or, I can convince you to give me the cigar with, I'll give you $5,000 in cash right now. And if that's not enough, I'll raise the money. Or, I can start activating you, and you will have no choice, but you will go and get the cigar too. Because we will get to the level that you will absolutely go and get the cigar. I promise you that, and you know that. So, there is quite a few ways that I can convince you to get the cigar. But listen, man, if I went and got the cigar because I liked you, but if I knew, because you paid me, that there's money on the line, in the future, and you told me to get a cigar, that might stop me from getting a cigar because I want to pay out. Sometimes that's a big problem, yes. this is when you replace the internal reinforcement, and this is when kids start to get tokens for they like to play tennis, or they like to paint, and the parents are all, let's make them paint more, and they start to reward painting, where the painting actually is. They would just do it on their own, but you shift the direction and the goal, and you fuck them up that way. But there is many, again, so how you go about getting the cigar for me, I can say that's a, you know, I can say all of this is good training because you, after all, brought the cigar here. well, but if I can ask you which way you liked, there is no question that the first option that I will go and get it for you, man, hold on, I don't need nothing, of course I don't need nothing.

Yeah, it reminds me of the carrot and the stick analogy, and they, I can't remember, I think it was a book by Malcolm Gladwell, maybe, I don't remember exactly, but it stuck with me, it's like, if you came over to my house, man, and I made you a barbecue or a crazy good dinner, just because I like you and I want your presence, and as you left my house, you were like, that was an amazing dinner, here's $5,000, or whatever, right? I might take that as an insult, even though you're trying to make a compliment, saying that I enjoyed it, let me monetize this behavior that you did intrinsically because you wanted to out of the goodness of your heart, it might diminish the importance of that moment. right. So, yeah, so I, and this is kind of almost one of the core principles in how I look at dog training. Going back to the report, trust, motivation, cooperation, skill, problem, resolution, skill, and so on, and so on. before I ask you for the cigar, I have to make sure that we are cool, that you actually want to do something for me, not for any other reason. Maybe it's a reciprocal, maybe it's not, but I can manipulate you outside the actual bringing the cigar, to where you will be very eager to do it just because, without even understanding that I kind of prepared you, I cooked you for that. Or, I can very intelligently steam you back and forth, and you will bring me the cigar. And the end result is, yes, I have a cigar, but who we are is very different. And a lot of trainers don't believe in that. That's why. And maybe don't believe because they don't know how, I don't know, that there is this whole fucking thing about, like, like, you, the moment I hear somebody that trains dog and starts on the premises that the dog is at any moment ready to just show you the middle finger. That's where you're done with me. I don't believe dogs are like that. I don't, I really don't. know, I know I need to elaborate probably more on this, but. You don't think that they have animosity? They don't have? They sure can, of course, of course, but they don't start with, I'm not going to fucking do a down for you, I'm not coming to you, or I'm not, I'm just going to despise you all along. And so the whole training approach is based on that the dog's just going to despise anything you want from them. Hmm. That's just like a horrible way to work with kids or anything, you know. You're starting on the wrong foot. You're going to make things happen,

but in the end of the day, who gives a fuck? There is affection and love. They're real things. And emotions are real things. Dogs are a little more different. They're a little more limited in what emotions are. Like, we talk about affect and arousal and so on. But, yeah, you've got to be nice to dogs, man. You've got to give them credit. They're not there. like, the moment anybody starts with that mindset is like, I don't have anything for you. Do you think that also that because people are asocial, that there are psychopath people, that they don't have? I don't think, I mean, of course, you have that sometimes, but I don't think, I think there is a big wave of trainers that really, they're not sociopaths, they just look at the dog in a very different way than how I would or how many people that probably listen here would. Jay, Jack, you know about GRC, his sport? Of course. Jay was sharing his sport most likely first with me than anybody else when he was first just brainstorming it, you know? Dude, it's brilliant. We've talked many times. His social readiness test and letting the dog be at liberty, we were at, I mean, I think it was at the beginning when he was launching this in St. Louis. Maybe Jay, you can tell me. First off, he's like, nobody has a flat collar. We're in the conference here with all these dog trainers and we need a flat collar and nobody has a flat collar. He's like, are you fucking kidding me? Nobody here has a flat collar? And then to let the dogs be at liberty. And what we were talking about earlier about just letting dogs be dogs. I exist and be without guidance from them. I think that I mean, I'm a huge fan of the GRC and he says that he's incorporated a lot of this for the pet dog folks. I think the consensus here is the comparative nature of who knows where people lie on the spectrum and who's better has to go through some type of competition. We've mentioned it too and I think that might be a good point. Somebody asked about structuring a competition for pet dog trainers and I think that is maybe an answer to this. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. He says, oh, J. Jack. Why not? The idea he talked about in Ivan's about social responsibility, SR testing and other sports like dock diving. That was brilliant. I have only been exposed to a small bit of dock diving. It's amazing how many of those dogs would fail SR testing. You'd be surprised, man, that we were with a bunch of professional dog trainers that their dogs that they traveled with to this location failed their SR testing. And I hope it becomes a new standard. I think it would make things so much better in so many ways. And the other thing that I like about is that we take the

dog's intuitive nature into consideration, especially with the tug stuff. That's why I like IGP is because it uses the tracking element that the PSA does not have. I like French ring. I love the object guard of that because I think that there are innate behaviors that lie within certain dogs that really strokes their desire in some of these competitions. For me, some of the valuable characteristics of sports, different sports, is the criteria what is judged. And again, it comes down to you can bring me the cigar. This is not the question. Because I like you. Why are you bringing the cigar? Yeah. And in certain sports, this is paid attention to, and in certain sports, this is not paid attention to. And then on top of that, you're asking a dog to be dominant and to be aggressive and to kind of lose his mind over the decoy. But at the same time, you control the behavior. Now, how the behavior is controlled and how the dog expresses the compliance. That's the interesting part when you know what to look at. Dog training is cool stuff. And again, I don't know. We started off with bashing me, bashing everybody, but it's not quite like that. It's really not quite like that. I don't think you're bashing them, Ivan. I think that you're raising legit disagreements that you have and asking questions that brought up good points about especially with the dopamine box and I don't believe that this is needed. I don't think that this is necessary. And same thing with the shaping. I mean, in a lot of cases, it's not even productive. Yeah, it's just not productive whatsoever. And then, I mean, I don't even want to kind of, I mean, I will here. And so what ways would your system differ from the NAPOPO system? It would be more relationship based. So let me read the comment for anybody that's listening. I am interested in NAPOPO. what does Ivan have to say about his system in comparison to Bards? Or what are things outside of shaping that was discussed that he doesn't agree with? I mean, that's another hole that we can go down. But I mean, I already said, it's really everything. And I know this comes really harsh. And it shouldn't come harsh. I'm just honest. And that's not, it should not be harsh. And again, I need to, I don't need to be apologetic. I don't need to be anything. As I said, me and Bart respect each other deeply. We talk. I mean, I'm going to see Bart in Germany in a week. I know we're going to have great time. I know there's been times that we've been kind of put against each other for no reason. That's not my point. But I don't see, like, you know, like, I would

have sponsors and it's like, hey, would you sponsor? And I'm like, if I don't like or I don't use it, it doesn't make sense. Like, I wouldn't, you know, have a Coca-Cola bottle just because I'm going to get a lot of money. I'm in this place in my life that it's, at least I have to be honest, but it doesn't mean, you know, like, I don't think there's anything. Anything that we do, we're taking very different approaches and the reason we're taking very different approaches is because we look at how we obtain and maintain behaviors in a very different ways. Radically, radically different ways. And I think that it's important to have these discussions as well. Distinct canine, this is something, and I'm not attacking Bart or Michael or any, I mean, I'm just, I'm here as somebody that has gone through the program that has taught it, has, but I also, I owe it to the dogs to do what's best by them, and there's a lot of things that Ivan says that I agree with, there's a lot of things that Bart and Michael say that I agree with, there's things that I've seen, but I'm always willing to change. What do you agree with what Bart says? I might agree too, I'm just curious. Just with finding, introducing hope, hope. What does it mean to introduce hope? That the dog can find their advantage through the behavior itself. Explain this a little bit better, besides the typical words that are used, what do you mean by that? So, the dog can know, it's... Give me a training example. So, you're teaching a dog to recall, what kind of hope are we talking about? Not just the recall, but the biggest word that I took away from Nepopo is tough. No, but let's stay with hope. I mean, we can go to tough too, but... Yeah, yeah. So, the dog learns that, I guess in a way, it is about building this relationship. It is about building the value, the interaction that you have with this dog. Does that make sense? No, it does not. This is just dancing around what I asked you to. It's very vague. Okay, I don't know how else to... It's extremely vague. so, well, and with the toughening too. So, bringing about the relationship to a higher dynamic through the interaction that you have with this dog. Take an example. So, with... Otherwise, it's just conversation, right? Right. I'm trying to think of one, man. I'll let you think I'm going to answer Kirubel asking, because he's very curious if I understand Nepopo. Kirubel, I understand Nepopo extremely well. Okay. And he's... And Bart, I mean, Kirubel is right. like, there are, I mean, there are desires that the dog has that we're trying to figure out and to... So, let's stay on track, Bill. I gotta keep you on track. One of the things in the system that you like was the hope factor. Yes. And I'm asking you,

as I don't understand it, let's pretend I'm asking you to elaborate and give me an actual example of what hope means in dog training. It means... Otherwise, it just works. I mean, it probably is. It's the glue that motivates the dog to be with me. Give me an actual example. You have a dog and there is a moment that you're going to say, I'm so... I'm giving him hope. Unforce, force, fetch. Right? So I present an object to the dog, the dog shows interest, and I reward that dog. Right? And then as the dog shows more and more interest, I don't... I mean, it's a good question, man. hope itself, it's building within that dog. The behavior is going to result... I need an actual straightforward example. I mean, I can let you go. I can give you a pass, but now we are kind of stuck the same way I was stuck with Susan Garrett. it, you know. Yeah. Or you can pick another one. Pick another one if you want. I mean, I've... It's something that I'm also kind of... I mean... What I've learned from NAPOPO... Do you want me to pick the tough? The toughening? Sure, sure, of course. And so using negative reinforcement, which is the release of pressure, especially with leash pulling, with dogs that have been shut down that I've back tied with maybe a bungee cord or something like that, teaching them to pull through to get the reward. I mean, there's... Unless I had a particular case in front of me right now, I'm trying to think about... No, I'm really probably a little bit unfair. I understand where you're going. I'm, in a way, giving you a little bit of a hard time. Yeah. However, however, there is some logic into the madness. So, when you were... What did you say? Tough? Or what was it? Toughening. Toughening. Toughening. Toughening. So, what you're basically saying is that if any kind of aversive applies, the dog doesn't... Not aversive. Not aversive. More... See, this is the problem because you're leaving it to my interpretation while I'm begging you to explain it to me. Okay. So, not aversive. We're talking incremental changes to build that motivation. over. Give me some concrete example of dog training. I mean, I would start with that dopamine box. Just like what we were talking about earlier. Right? We show the dog the dopamine box, put the reward in the box, let the dog go to the box, and get the reward. Okay? Okay. Then, we put a vest on the dog, put the reward in the box, let the dog pull very slightly more pressure on the leash, let the dog realize that I pull through this,

and then I get to the box and get my reward. And then we start to incrementally increase that pressure until the dog realizes the answer to this puzzle, so to speak. And that is that hope of finding the answer to this puzzle. And what is that good for? To motivate the dog. To motivate the dog. Because you cannot motivate the dog in any other way? Oh, I'm sure you can. Can you motivate it in a better way? I'm sure you can, yes. these are interesting conversations. I don't care about wants to come on the call to challenge you. No, it's okay. We've been talking for a while anyway. It's definitely okay. And keep in mind too, like I said, like I'm a pet dog trainer. I went through Napopo probably after about 15 years of working with dogs. And I've learned. Once again, sorry to interrupt you. I will go back to what I said. The core, what needs to be learned there, the goal of this tough, what do you say? It's basically when a when aversive is applied. And aversive does not, aversive is anything. Aversive is restricting you from getting something that you want. Regardless of how you restrict it, it is aversive because you are restricted to get it. So it is aversive. So there is, this is just a very standard concept of learning to where if there is pressure, how do you handle the pressure? Can you overcome it or not overcome it? Are you going to crumble or are you not? However, the interesting conversation is what is that good for? And we can say what we are building resilience and the dog is tough and up and can overcome stressors and so on, which is totally fine. Are there better ways to do it? Yes, I'm sure there is. There are. And what I mean by better ways, just, you know, just simple, simple ways, clarity ways, you know. Again, but this can be argued anyway. It's interesting. I, you know, at least what I'm trying to do is make you think instead of just throwing slogans at me. well, what I've always learned as aversive is like a strong, not, not, not, not, not pressured. Yeah. What aversive is, it's, you know, like, like, like you can dance around, not you, anybody, positive people and balance and everybody can dance around what aversive is. But, but ultimately it's like when, like, you can listen to, I don't know, let's say, Michael Shikashi, you can say, well, and I don't know exactly, but any of them can say, well, something that's not comfortable. Well, if it's not comfortable, that means it's uncomfortable or neutral. There is only two choices. And if it's neutral, there is no reason to have motivation to do

anything. So, if it's not comforting, comfortable, it's uncomfortable. If it's uncomfortable, it's equals aversive. It's unpleasant. There is some level of discomfort and discomfort can be physical, emotional, whatever it is. And, and there is, you know, there's just plenty of ways to deal with this. It's interesting. hopefully I'm not, again, I really feel like I'm just on a full-blown attack and I don't need to be. No, I mean, this discussion is important, I think. And you do raise some good points about is there a better way to do this? Is there? The first question is why are we doing it? Because if we don't know, and I'm not saying that there is no reason, but a lot of trainers will do things without understanding what we're doing and why we're doing it. And can we get it in a much better way? Whatever that is, I'm not stuck anymore on what we just talked. Well, here, well, Kirabel says, hope is motivation, right? I agree. There are intrinsic and extrinsic forms of motivation. NAPA focuses on building intrinsic motivation compared to TWC. One of the ways to build intrinsic motivation is through operant games, like the shaping games that we talked about earlier. When the dog learns to problem solve and learn independently, it builds several soft skills that are extremely crucial. It develops a specific type of hope that is different from that, which is built through external motivators. But we still rely heavily, develop relationship with the dog. Oh, shoot, I'm going to have to go to the Facebook page to get the rest of this comment. Sorry, I'm going to the, you guys got a long comment, try to break it down so we can, I can put it up there. It develops a specific type of hope that is different from which it's built through external motivations, but we still heavily develop relationship with the dog, and clarity on giving external instructions and teaching just like TWC. Very good. Leash equals aversive period. Gentle leader or harness is aversive. go to the loop. ! There was a lot of fluff in that statement. Yeah. This is the thing, like, you know, just, just talking around circles and, and, um, I'm not talking about that last comment, um, because, yeah, Leash, sooner or later, there will be some, something, I mean, you're restricting. It's not like you're having a mission, just going after the dog. There will be a restriction, and as soon as there is a restriction, that's a aversive, period. End of story. Simple. But I think, I think also, terms and definition. What is more important is that there is clarity and that things are contingent and, and predictable and announced. There is, like, very, way bigger pieces that are crucial than, than just kind of, you know, use, use a, a good line of

what we are doing, um, you know. I don't know what simultaneous and backwards means here. Show me. Does Ivan mean, forward versus backwards when it comes to aversive use for building resiliency? And then this other comment that he just made was, Napopo doesn't have contingency though, does it? It uses simultaneous backwards, simultaneous backwards. Yeah, there is plenty of times where it's within the development where, um, again, we, we, we, we, we, we look at doctrine very differently. Um, we absolutely never, ever, ever, like, ever, ever using simultaneous conditioning. Um, how do you explain, explain that to me, simultaneous conditioning. Simultaneous conditioning. So, so you have a, oh man, seriously. So, simultaneous conditioning basically in, in complete layman terms means you're going to say sit and you're going to leash pop at the same time. and if you do that, the leash pop will always overwrite your verbal sit because it has the power. It trumps it. So, if you stop, the sit will not be, um, there, there will be, you know, nothing meaningful there. forward conditioning would be you say sit and then you do the pop. Backwards conditioning will be you do the pop, the dog sits, and then you say sit. Okay. So, in learning theories and in practice, this is proven what works and what doesn't, and it's explained extremely well why that is. and it's super easy to be demonstrated as well. Next time you come, I will, I will show you exactly how, how, how, you know, just remind me. Forward, forward, so if the dog, if you say sit, the dog sits, no leash pop. pop. Well, in the beginning, you're going to have to, if you, the sit will have no meaning. It's a neutral stimulus, what it's called. Pop, and then sit, pop, and then once the dog sits, no pop. Once the dog, once the... there will be a sit, which means nothing. It's a neutral stimulus. The leash pop will eventually make the dog sit. The dog sits, there is no more leash pop, so this is a forward conditioning and negative reinforcement, and basically you, the dog now is in an escape stage of the negative reinforcement paradigm. Now, the dog knows how to escape the pop, but hasn't come to the conclusion how to altogether avoid it. So it's still, even though the dog can escape the aversive, the discomfort, it's not a bad thing, but there is still aversive that comes. With some more repetition, the dog understands how to altogether avoid it. When it's done simultaneously, that's just

even theoretically not possible. Eventually, somebody can claim that this works, but I can, if there is a video or a demonstration live, I can point out where the dog actually picks up and the learning starts to happen, to where the dog picks up on the cue, but it's not because of what simultaneous conditioning can never do that. This is just like one-on-one basic stuff. Like there is no, this is an arguable shit. I get it. I mean, it's, I just didn't know forward, backwards. And I think, I think, think of the road, think of a road. Like let's say, let's say you're driving a car and there is like a cliff. And if you drive fast and you go over the cliff, you crash, you die. You can have a sign that says you need to make a sharp left turn. and that sign is right at the cliff. Like right at the cliff. And you're driving with 120 miles. Do you think you're going to make that turn? Nope. Nobody will make that turn. It's impossible. Yeah. Because the information comes too late. Yeah. If you're driving and there is the cliff and you're lucky if you made the turn, but there was a, so the sign is after the turn. It's just as bad. I've no use to you. If the sign is five miles before the turn, you're going to slow down, you're going to be careful for a few minutes, and then you're going to say, fuck it, that sign didn't make no sense, you're going to speed up, and you're going to die again. So there is a very specific place for that sign to help you navigate that turn and not die. And these are your, like, you know, very layman terms, explaining, you know, the different order of conditioning. It makes perfect sense to me, man, and I never thought of it that way. You will love the course. I'm sure I will. But again, these are super kind of basic things, and they're not, this is just non-negotiable. So we're talking, I mean, I want to put up this other one about Kirabel here, because this is what I was trying to explain. One example of advantage using stimulus, simultaneous conditioning for dogs that are extremely sensitive to novel stimuli. we can use simultaneous conditioning to help them overcome that genetic deficiency by making their brain focus on the stimuli they know, while introducing new stimuli at the same time. So this was like the dopamine box, right? They know the dopamine box. The brain can consciously focus on the known stimuli, but still subconsciously learns from the novel stimuli. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing I don't have, I don't feel I need to comment to this. There is no, I said what I need to say. Okay. There is delayed conditioning, there is trace conditioning, there is simultaneous

conditioning, and there is backward conditioning. Now, there is few others kind of layered onto that, but these are your basic ones. And the basically the trace and the delay, they kind of, you know, what I call forward. But yeah, there is certain things that it's kind of, you know, once we know that the earth is round, there is no way back to anything else. like, like anybody that claims that the earth is flat, it's just, there is nothing to say to it, you know. Yeah, there's, but they're out there. They're out there. They are out there. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think too, we didn't really talk about any of this, but we've been going on for, for, for a long time, and I want to let you go, because. No, I'm good. Oh, you are. You're talking. So. If you are trying, whatever. No, I'm perfect. Yeah, I'm good. We can go. So, I'm going to take. I was, you know, when you, when you, I really, like, I tell you, keep your thought. I was, Natalia was like, you have a podcast or something tonight. I'm like, no, it's tomorrow. She's like, no, no, calendar is tonight. I opened the calendar and it says tonight and I fucking change it to tomorrow because I'm somehow convinced that it's tomorrow. I'm going, I'm in the sauna and I look at the phone and you're telling me that we start in 30 minutes if I'm ready. And I'm like, okay, I'll be ready. Anyway, so what were you, where were you going? Are you ready to take a, remember how we're just talking about going off the cliff to take a left turn here? We're going to take a left turn here. Let's go. So we talked about euthanasia and dogs and this is something that we talked about at the conference with Jay Jack and something we touched on a little bit when I was there, but have we really tried everything when we're, when we're working with behavior modification and one thing that I think needs to be considered and and I want to hear your thoughts on this because I know you've looked into it a little bit with the jellyfish and stuff. Are you ready? Psychedelics. Let's go. Oh, shit. Yeah. Psychedelics have a profound effect on the human mind, the human psyche. I have seen it personally. So we've had the conversation privately, you and I, and I am, yeah, I'm quite deep into this and unfortunately, I, I, I, not, not, not yet. Okay. Like we, we are very much into this right now. It's just one of the few ways that we can reprogram and open, you know, critical period windows and so on. I mean, it's, it's a, much harder conversation to do. Well, we don't have the data sets in front of us that show. I mean, I, I do, but I just, this is like, just not a, that's way, way too crazy. However, however, you know, when, when my things are dying, let me see. Can't hear you yet. Oh, here, let me put you off mute. Hold on. Can I mute? Mike isn't connected, it says. They might need to do it. I can't hear you. So,

while he's doing this, I, I discuss about the profound effects and we won't really talk about this, but I think that in the future, as we start to evolve with behavior, unmute Mike, because they choose to mute themselves. So, you got to hit the unmute button. There it goes. Gotcha. Okay. Can you hear me good? I can. All right. Perfect. So, the one thing about kind of just, just a little bit before you went off on, on psychedelics, you know, like, like how the, so you have, like, we have few levels, if you want, force free trainers, there is the one that are extremes to where they will say, well, never aversive. There is the other ones that will say, well, we need to go through these other layers before we use the aversives. And they, they believe that this is the right way to do things. and, you know, most of the time, telling a dog, starting with, hey, I don't like you to do this, is absolutely the most reasonable approach. Instead of pretending that you're going to ignore and you're going to start reinforcing other things and the dog doesn't have a clue that you disapprove or that thing's going to be dangerous or whatever it is. So, the case about aversives when we're talking about dog that's aggressive, there has to be as a first thing in line to say, this is wrong, don't do that, don't do it. And then we can go on anywhere we want to go. But the idea that you're going to focus on counter condition, decentralization, differential reinforcement, whatever program you can pick without telling the dog, don't do it. And the conversation starts with, do you ever tell the dog no? And some will say no because it's aversive and it leads to the fallout. and some will say, oh yeah, I can say it and it works. And then it's like, well, what if you said it and it don't work? And why did it work? It works because it's a conditional punisher, it's a secondary punisher. It's programmed that has a consequence afterwards. It's the only reason why this is happening. and, and, and, you know, like, like, having a conditioned punisher or, or again, secondary punisher is basically really, it, it, it's just a stupid simple thing. You know, how, how, how do you make it? It's just a transfer of function. Now, the punishment itself, but then you can transfer the function of punishment to another signal that says, hey, if you, you, you, have a chance to actually respond before the punishment comes. It's your choice. And

eventually, when that's established, then, then you very rarely will need an actual primary punisher. But anybody that argues that, no, I don't say no, or I would do that as a last resort. Like, we're, we're basically either holding the needle or we're going to use aversive. And you think that you're, as a forcery trainer, very progressive in your way of thinking because you're not opposed to aversive, but it comes as a last resource. It's a very ridiculous way to, there is no justification to this. It's just such a simple way to debate this. I would do this with anybody. nobody wants to. Well, I can't think of anything more aversive than death. Right. And that's something that I, I mean, I've seen good dogs be put down. It breaks my heart because people weren't willing to do everything. right. And it's like, are you truly doing everything? Are you considering everything? And I think that we owe it as people, just like you were talking about earlier, like we can convince each other and we can be snake oil salesmen to each other because we are human beings, but we're talking about interspecies communication and we owe it. It's imperative that we understand the species that we're trying to communicate with as effectively as possible. and yeah, I don't know why what happened, but something happened a while back to where it happened with people and with everybody and, you know, and that all started with, started way back. It started with, I mean, just to give you a very brief evolution of how things progressed. There was a hundred and something years ago, John Watson. He was a psychologist and he, you know, he did the Albert experiment, the fear induced, you know, through classical conditioning, emotional conditioning. banging a gong, showing him a little rabbit, was it, whatever, and then eventually got a seizure. But, besides upon that, I'm mentioning this because that's kind of what, if anybody knows it, but not really know it, that's kind what may ring a bell. But, he also said that he had a saying and you probably have heard it and some, most of the people hopefully have heard this kind of stuff because these are important things of how, how learning theory evolved. So, he, he, you know, understanding reinforcement and punishment all of a sudden became a big boom after Thorndike. And, and so he, he would say, give me 10 infants and I can make them robbers, I can make them astrophysic, I can make them whatever I want through reinforcement and punishment. He puts fire in front of the baby, do you see the... And, so, needless to say, that didn't work. like, no matter how much reinforcement I get and how much punishment I get, I will never be able to

paint like an artist or understand astrophysics. I'm genetically not allowed to do that. so, from that point, we know that reinforcement and punishment is, is very limited to a genetic predisposition as a one thing and the environment as another thing and so on. Skinner comes in, Thorndike, meanwhile, comes with that law of effect and the law of effect basically states if you reward something, it's more likely to happen, if you punish something, it's less likely to happen. Then he kind of revised that law of, and he says, well, the reinforcement part is valid, but the punishment part not so well, not so much. Skinner takes it further and basically, they're already on that direction of punishment is, is just not as successful. You know, it's temporary and, and it has a lot of fallouts and so on and so on and the whole speech that it's still relevant that they continue to use. However, there was many holes, I don't want to go through this, why, and point all this, but, but the way they were applying punishment, it was, you know, for their time and for their knowledge, but totally inappropriate. So, of course, it was not as effective as reinforcement on the other spectrum. Then, Ziedman comes much later and he makes this coercion and it fell out. He has this big book and everybody, the forstery, just, that's kind of where it all comes from. There is a huge movement from, again, more than 100 years ago, trying to convince the whole world that punishment is not going to work, it's not going to last, and it's going to have plenty of fell outs. on the premises, though, that it's applied extremely poorly. Now, there is plenty of science after that that's done that demonstrates the effectiveness and the power, and especially like, like, even when we're talking about the condition punisher, forget about the, what do you call it, the primary punisher, but like, even the condition punisher, you say, no, you know, even this is way stronger and almost unextensiable when it's done correctly. You have to go through some very specific procedures to actually change that. And this is where I'm trying to kind of now wrap things up here, is that somehow the poor application of punishment and understanding of punishment from hundred and something years ago, it still lingers in the force-free community as this is not, it's just the big fallout, you know, intimidation, fear, and pain, and all this. I mean, we talk all the time about this. We know that this is just

unicorns. But they're stuck on that. And this is why when they talk about, you know, oh, we tried everything, but because I really want to save the dog, I'm going to finally try some aversive. You most likely don't even know how to apply aversive. you know, and there would be a good argument that you're way too late with applying aversive because you've put that behavior in some weird schedule of reinforcement, trying all these things that never work. So, that's, you know, that's where we are today. And this is like the problem with holding on to a straw, that everybody in, this just abandoned in, like, in science, like in the book that you had, the books that are behind here, like, practical, like, there's just no question, this is unarguable stuff, but here we are. It's a, it's a big problem. So, when we're talking about saving lives, and my point is that sometimes, and I can even argue that most of the time, probably the most appropriate thing is to start to say, hey, I disapprove of this. Or, again, there's a bunch of other ways to do this, but, there is always place for reinforcement. There is always place for reinforcement. However, if you stop the bad behavior, or the undesired behavior, you can open the door for other behaviors to happen. So, in fact, the punishment helps you reinforce way more than good behaviors or directed to something appropriate than if you do not punish. But, that's where they are, you know, like, you know, dogs trained with positive reinforcement, they must continue to be reinforced or the behavior kind of, it's going to extinguish and actually disappear rapidly, you know, it's not an opinion, it's a, you know, but, yeah. What do you attribute it to? I think, I mean, I think in some of this is, is, emotion. For knowledge of how, how punishment works, how, how it's applied, what is the intensity, what is the order, how we were talking, you know, forward and right forward and so on. Like, there is, there is actual logic and, you know, it's not like we're not reinventing the wheel, this is all done. I mean, we're talking, you know. I think people try to think with their emotions, Ivan. I think people try to think with their emotions and they can't, you can't think with your emotions, you got to think with your brain and there's logic behind this and I think that that is the root. One, it would be like, well, would you do this to a child? It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? I just, I just told you, I can, I can tell the child, I can instruct the child exactly and I can tell them what will happen

if and what will happen if not. I cannot do that to a dog. I cannot instruct the dog doesn't have this abstract cognitive abilities. That's why they learn through very different ways and this is, you know, yeah, it's cool stuff but at some point everybody is stuck and kind of, as you say, it hits a good soft spot like, well, do you want to be bad to your dog? Do you want to be good to your dog? But at the end of the day, are you going to save the dog? dog? Why don't just save it right now? Yeah. You actually can, right? Yeah. Jay said that he, on the next level dog page, Jay just wrote an article about the misunderstanding and punishment on both sides causing so many problems. Jay, can you share a link to that so I can pull it up here? Because I want to, I'm on your dog, I don't see it on the, I'm on the dog, next level dogs, but I don't, resources, foundation plan, articles, this is what comes up with the article, so I don't know if it's on there. Look at that handsome man there. Yeah, I don't see any. What, what is he saying? That he posted what? He just did an article on exactly what you're talking about. Yeah, I'm kind of just talking, just bouncing over. Yeah, and just so you know, I have, this is the, the before what you're talking about. This was in 1920, so just over 100 years ago, and this is baby Albert. this is him right here. This is what you're talking about. This is before. Yeah, but this is, again, this is the, this kind of not so relevant to what we were talking. What, what you want to do is the, give me dozen infants, search for John Watson, give me dozen, dozen infants, and that's going to come up. it's a, you know, it's a classic thing that, you know, it's, it got very quickly debunked, but it's been going everywhere, and, you know. What is it, John Watson? Yeah. John Watson. It's just the magic of reinforcement and punishment that everybody stuck still today, including most of balance trainers, you know. Life does not revolve strictly around reinforcement and punishment. No, it just has this one little, or Albert, little Albert Watson and Rainer, but that's a classical conditioning. Hold on. I'll, I'll help you. Let me see here. Jesus, Bill, wasn't looking for airtime. I'm just talking about safety. Whatever, Jay. Oh, wait, this is off the Jesuits, huh? Interesting. Does Ivan retrohale on your cigar? You know what that is? Can Ivan share his ideas? Okay, so he's asked this a couple times. Ideas about training police dogs and protecting sports

without aversives. so here is the actual what he stated. Give me a dozen healthy infants, well-formed and my own specified world to bring them up and I will guarantee to take any of anyone at random and train him to become a type of specialist. I might select a doctor, lawyer, artist, and so on, a beggar, regardless of his talents, regardless of tendencies, regardless of abilities, regardless of anything, strictly through reinforcement and punishment. That was a, you know, it was a big deal and it's still kind of, as I said, it's a problem today, but that's kind of where it starts. There is quite a few very interesting moments in the learning theory over the years that are again. Well, and I see what he means by the Jesuits. So Ignatia said that give me a child until he was seven and I will show you the man. This is basically, you know, there was a, and I have this in my course, one of the first kind of memes that were coming up years ago, and it was a dachshund and he was on the sticks kind of to stand tall. and the saying was, and now I'm a Doberman or something like that, you know, and basically it's really going against what the genetics have programmed to you. You cannot, there is certain things that reinforcement and punishment are helpless. and again, this is a huge problem with dog training because you can get stuck. You can start banging your wall thinking that you're going to do more and you cannot, there is very different ways to approach this in order to solve certain situations. so. Alan, here it is. Do you see it? Yes. That's basically what, you know, they believed in and somehow they still do. It's like, yeah. people hate dealing with logic these days. Science is exact. It's not arguable. It does not have many roads leading to Rome, which we hear that in dog training. We hear it a lot. In dog training. It's very bad because I always reply to this. Some roads go get to there faster. Some are very bumpy and some those people are still traveling. They haven't reached Rome yet. It's a dangerous thing. Instead, you learn the science like gospel and then develop your practice into an art that enhances your practical outcomes. Fundamental science never... What's that? I'm just asking everybody what do

you want to talk about? What do you guys want to talk about? Psychedelic? No, just kidding. Well, do you know David too? I mean, it's really it's about changing emotional states. Tell me the fastest way to Rome. And that's the, you know, this is like the kind of the premises also, as I was saying, like, you know, again, emotions, with humans, emotions are much more, I mean, quite different. Like, in the dogs, we have like the mood and affect, balance, and arousal, and there is like this, you know, you can have a, like a unpleasant and pleasant balance, and depending if it's calm or alert, arousal, and when everything fits, you have different states. And in different states, you see and you react in a different way. And you can manipulate this kind of stuff, you know, there's ways how to do that. And play is one of this way, because play, again, as I was saying, changes, play, changes the energy, energy changes the physiology, and physiology changes the emotional state. However, you know, like in a different state, again, you do, you do, and you, what do you call it, and you express see different things. Like if you just go like this, you know, and you shrunk your shoulders and you breathe shallow and you say, this is a very shitty day. And it becomes a very shitty day. And there is ways to change that. And so, again, psychedelics is just one option that you can work on. to emotional state. It's a very complicated topic. We'll do one where we have all the data and everything. We'll do another one maybe in six months a year or something. Three years from now. Three years from now. Okay. What's the date? How it goes, you know? We'll do it on psychedelics. Yeah. Right now, right now, as I'm reading, you know, kind of following people and everything, it seems like there is interesting conversations around negative reinforcement finally, which it should be. There is a lot of conversations about prediction errors, which it should be. You know, this is all stuff for me. You ready? We got a bunch of comments coming in, man. You asked for it. So, this is like the fourth time asking this. So, any police dogs, protections for dogs without aversives? What are your ideas about training police dogs and protection dogs without aversives? It's a paradox. So, so, I think, I had a very interesting podcast with Melanie, Melanie Uda. Yeah, she's awesome. I talked to her about this. So, if anybody wants a little more, I think I went quite in detail there a little bit more in depth. But, basically, you have, there is different sensation seeking types in humans, in animals, to where you have, you know, you have a thrill seeking, you have a,

there's just different types of what kicks. Some people like to get punched in the face, like Jay. Some people like to hike. Some people are very dysfunctional. Some people are very bored, predisposition to boredom. These are just different types, and they kind of go around together. are, Mark Zuckerberg came with this, and there is a very interesting book anybody that wants to follow a little bit on that. But, again, in that podcast, I talk a little bit, and I show some cool examples. the protection dog stuff is the dogs that like protection sports. They like the adversity, and they like to overcome the aversive and the challenges. It's a thrill-seeking sensation. Just like the people that like to punch each other and, you know, do this kind of extreme stuff. So, the dogs that like protection, they are basically the same kind of, animal genetically. And when you have a dog that likes this and is paired with a force-free trainer, the dog says, I want to do this. And the trainer says, we're going to do it all force-free dog. And it's a, that's kind of, you know, the paradox, as I say, of, of, you know, trying to, to, to, to really avoid and ignore what the dog is mate and what they thrive and what they search for. It is a, it is a very, very interesting topic. And again, you can, you can, the, the, the, the most crazy part about this is, again, Marvin Zuckerman is the guy and, and you have, you have the thrill-seeking with basically, you know, these are activities that require some confrontation. There is some physical risk. There is some, you know, you're dodging bullets. You have experience, again, it's like, you can be exploring environment, solving problems. You can do agility, five, all, so on. Then there is the disinhibition, which is kind of more of an impulsive stuff and, and whatever. and basically, again, with the, when we're talking about the, how the force free comes with it, it just really, it's just very strange trying to, to avoid exactly what the dog is looking for. you know, like, like, what you call that thrill, it's a, it's a drive, it's a motivation, it's not a problem, you know, dogs that enjoy that kind of risky activities, just like the protection sports, you know, or, or whatever certain types of the hunting, like the hawk hunting, or, you know, there is stuff happening, you know, they, they seek that discomfort and challenging experience, they're, that's their world, and, and,

you know, it's a, it's kind of a mix of, of, in a way, biological behavior, there's like a lot of, a lot of stuff that comes together with that. And it's a very, very interesting stuff. And basically, I think what Elkan is talking about is the, you know, again, like humans, you know, we have varying levels of arousal and stimulation needs. We are very different. Somebody, there is few people that like to be punched in the face. Some people like figure skating, you know, but some are just neurologically wired to enjoy and, and seek out more intense physical, mental stimulation and, and that kind of, it really, protection sport kind of amplifies that drive to experience this kind of discomfort and challenge and, and during, during protection sports, you know, the, the, they provide that outlet for the, that need to, even you can think of like actually regulating the, the, that arousal level and, and without this kind of outlets for that type of dog or for that kind of kid, they either can become bored or frustrated and eventually lead to what we would call, you know, behavior problems. Well, it's, it's, the, the ring provides a steam vent for their, their desire to express this type of behavior behavior. And in a way, the aversive is almost a positive reinforcement in some aspects, like, um, they, they, they desired that type of life and to, to, to not consider and fulfill their intrinsic desires is a disservice to that individual animal. They have wants and desires that are just as important to them as your wants and desires are to you. And, uh, it's, it doesn't mean that we're all the same, but we should give them an opportunity to fulfill that one, which motivates them. Yeah. All right. We got another comment here. Anything else on that? No, there is one just, you think you could change emotional states only with play, um, or punishment has always to be part, um, and how do we, how do we, how do we, um, place boundaries within play? You, you really change emotional state by changing the energy and the physiology. That, that's kind of how it really goes. It's just a, neuroscience explains this, uh, uh, model very well. There is nothing, you know, um, that's, that's kind of why we focus so heavily on play, but as you say, build, uh, how a force free trainer would do play and how I would do play. It's, it's just, again, very different stuff. Um, you know, again, some dogs need the challenge and the little conflict and, and, you know, there is, there is competition. There is like you create a state and, and then instead of trying to pretend, well, the toy is dead and I'm going to give you something else. It's like, well, how can you control the behavior when the dog is in that mindset specifically

without breaking it and so on. And it's interesting stuff. Do you, um, Jay calls it murder games. That's, that's essentially what play is for dogs. Yeah. Jay, Jay can totally relate on this because he's, that, that's who Jay is, you know? Yep. Um, like, like, imagine Jay not having this outlet. He would be probably back in jail. He would be a bad kid or he would be mentally unstable because that's where that either boredom or the disinhibition comes in place and, and it leads to bad ideas, you know? um, and, yeah. Leaking drive emotionally. Where does it come from and how do you create it or reinforce it? Is there a genetic aspect? Is this leaking, like, like whining? Is this most likely that's what it is. So there is, yeah, so there, there is, man, there are trainers out there that are like, just so, oh, we just do the dominant collar and we stop him from licking. So simple. Or the e-collar and hit him in a high level. I mean, he cannot, whatever. I mean, this is like just the dumbest of the dumbest ideas out there. Um, why, why dogs leak? There is, there is few reasons and one can be extremely simple. They are all simple, but let's say one is just like a person. It's a personality trait. It's a, you know, it's a, you're, you're just a different emotional bee. So like, let's say I've been, let's say we're doing this in person right now. And I walk out of the room and five minutes later I come and I'm like, oh, Bill, you know, you cannot like, like you have to approach if you recognize that that's where it's coming from. You have to be approached in a very different way than if it's coming from the dog not understanding something. and it's like, I'm just so frustrated and in conflict that I don't know, I have no idea how to function here. So the last thing you want to do is just to go, boom, you shut up or whether, you know, you got to analyze and see what it's coming for and on, that's another very easy one to fix. It's just bring clarity to the situation and the dog takes a deep breath and it's like, okay, thank you, let's go. There is anticipation, but there's like many reasons of why this happens. It's not one reason, just like how I don't like to talk about leash reactivity. There's like so many reasons why a dog is very active on leash, that just putting them in one thing is very incorrect simply because it doesn't, like once you put such a label, it doesn't allow you to see where the problem is. You start to treat everything universally and it really hurts when you go to this universal suppression. It's like, of course, you can stop him from whining, but he's still whining in here. He's still emotionally unstable and you're still going to have a

very unproductive session, even though he's not allowed to whine. Is there a genetic aspect to it as well? Yeah, as I said. Yeah. Yeah. There's, again, there's numerous reasons and you cannot treat them equally. This is like one of the things that sucks also with the ask me anything. Yeah. What the fuck are you doing? is like you have this crystal ball and there is this person that clearly struggles and needs an advice and says, I have a four-month-old dog and he's doing this and this. And basically that person gives you some interpretation of what is going on and you take that for granted and now you're throwing an advice that you're interpreting and it goes from bad to worse to a tragedy. it's such a horrible idea to do this kind of stuff because you're misleading and you're giving most of the time. Once in a while you most likely will give a good suggestion, good advice, but can even the person follow that advice? You don't even know who the fuck you're talking to. You're reading something. What you are doing at why? For likes and for subscribes and creating content. It's kind of the same thing. I think Dylan was talking recently and so did I think I don't know if it was Jay or was it Larry. when you have a seminar or workshop. It's the worst idea to bring a dog that has some serious issues and we're going to fix them today. It's already as unstable as it can possibly be and now we're throwing them in this completely weird environment and now we're going to create a problem so we can fix it. It's just like the mother load of bad ideas. I'm just talking. Sport dog, puppy. You're going to have some puppies. I saw that your dog had some fun this weekend. It's been wild. I cannot remember when was the last weekend that we were not doing anything. There's been protection seminars. There's been obedience seminars. There's been monduring seminars, monduring trials. This weekend there is an IGP trial we're having. There is a bunch of readings. It's endless but I love it. As tired as we get it's very that's kind of what I'm interested in. Do you have any tips on raising a sport puppy? It's a selfish question from distinct. Yeah, distinct. We just talked about the crystal ball, guys. No, you're making me do exactly that. I don't know what is the puppy. I don't know what's the maturity level. I don't know your skills. It's like anything that I will tell you right now most likely will be a bad idea. you know. Any thoughts on determining if there's a lack of clarity understanding versus a dog blowing you off? Yeah, that's the... Giving you the middle finger. Just kidding. We talked about that earlier. That's really the deal breaker. And this is kind of when

I teach at the school. Like, really the most important thing is to understand what is going on and diagnose it correctly. Because if you misdiagnose you're going to write the wrong prescription. So, you know, it can be this or it can be this. But they either one, if it's clarity or if it's just, I'm just going to do what I want to do, they have to be approached in a very different way. And force is not necessarily the solution if the dog is blowing you off, neither in clarity. Again, it's a... I guess the best way that I can answer this is that you need to be very sure what the problem is. And then the prescription kind of comes naturally how to solve and how to deal. Okay. Once she pays off her car, she'll be signing up for the TWC course. When is your next course? You know, I don't know. I have probably... I was going to say I'm going to look at my calendar, but I even looked in the calendar for our podcast and I messed it up. I don't know. But I do have... there are a few more weeks of the current class. So most likely sometime end of May, I would say, or July is when we're going to start the next class. But that's easy. You can find this. You can just email us. Training without conflict dot com is the website. I'll post it up here. That's easy. Anything else you want to touch on, man? Or are you... Ivan talks something that has found... Let me see. Ivan talks like someone that has found a scientific method to his art and is now tired of the dilly-dallying with the muck. Do you know David? Yeah. I'm so bad with names that I... Oh, yeah. I think I know. I believe I actually stopped him at the ICP the last one. But I missed his presentation and then we were going to hang out and of course something happened. Yeah. So that presentation filled up like that. I missed it too because it was... Oh, too many people that had a limited amount of seats there. But David's brilliant. He's one of my favorite people in the world. Love you, David. And David, are you going to be at the next ICP conference? Let me know in the comments. And I hope you can make it, Ivan. I don't really, I don't know. In August. I am not making it, but I cannot remember why I'm not making it, but I know I'm not. I'm telling you, sometimes they get me very frustrated, these conferences, man, because I don't know. like I like to be, you know, when we, once you make a presentation and then there is a Q&A. Nice. I don't think the Q&As need to be always that was very nice and what about this? I'd like to challenge your ideas, whomever you are. And once

you stand on your ideas, that's when it gets interesting to me. But if I can rattle your ideas, that's also interesting to me because it makes both of us or everybody think about it, you know? Yeah. And I like you rattling my ideas, man. I like it. Yeah. What do you think the next, what do you anticipate the next biggest innovation, dog training tools or methods? Or AI and robotics, that's what I think. Yeah, no, I think even if AIs eventually train dogs, I think, like, I don't know, my take is that maybe dog training is going to become this exotic, cool thing that we can do. Even though if the AI does it, that will be kind of something that we can step outside the art of dog training, man. I think. But otherwise, I don't know as far as I'm sure there will be, there is discoveries all the time, you know? There will be, we evolve, there's no question. I think the electric color is by far the most like, like really, really amazing tool as far as if on the aversive side of things. But what is going to be the next frontier? Who knows? We're going to find out soon because it's moving so fast. brain imaging, protein mapping, there's so many different things that we're going to be, I mean, the world is changing every week. I watch those AI things. I've sent you a couple live in, but I'm excited for it. As long as we survive. As long as we survive. And then the UBI, the universal basic income, universal high income, the world is going to get very interesting here in the next few years. And I'm happy to be alive to experience it. I just hope that we make it through. you know. But it's as far as dog training, I don't think that's going to go away. I think that's going to be one of those cool things that people don't like. Like, I think even more people may like and appreciate a life animal. Because we all going to, you know how Elon Musk says, we all going to have robots eventually, like within years here. I mean, imagine the thing sitting in a corner and, okay, do this, whatever, you know. And it's going to be cool, but at the same time, I think as humans, we're going to need and we're going to appreciate even more than right now, the life interactions. Like, I know, like, I don't know if it's Joe Rogan or some of the cool podcasts, I don't know, I don't know, but they were talking about, you know, which professions go and sometimes there was a conversation about the chefs and cooking and stuff and how, you know, it's just like it will make a perfect brain surgery, it will make a perfect meal for you, but you're still going to want to go to a restaurant where the human kind of fucked up your steak a little bit. It's going to be a thing, you know, like appreciate

the human touch. Well, I think that there's going to be art that's human only, there's going to be movies that's human only, there's going to be a human only aspect of our society that is going to be appreciated and, you know. I'm high music right now, I mean, I'm kind of, I'm half and half, I really, I love it. Originally, I was like, this is weird, like, I know this is all fake, but then it's just like you hear 10 seconds of the beat and you're, this is cool. Yeah. But at the same time, I think we're going to, we're going to start to have more appreciations of the trial and error and the imperfection if you want to think that way, you know. Yeah. I mean, it's something that, um, I write songs all the time, man. You know that with the AI? Here, let me sign into this thing here. Where it's good. Okay. So hold on. I'll show you real quick. Here, let me working on human. So, uh, David's working on human, uh, ailment detection, expanding on our patent and dogs retrofitted with sensors, you know? and then Andy says, imagine, well, the neural link, dude, imagine us having a neural link, the dog having a neural link and we can telepathically communicate, you know? I mean, Jess says that, hey, maybe we should introduce this, dude, a debate forum format conference presenting video case progressions from each side. that might be something that is, uh, mind blowing, but it can go wrong. Well, we need a moderator, you know, a good moderator. Yes, you absolutely need a moderator. And then, um, it kind of depends who who's debating. I love debates. I mean, I watch debates all the time, like in any kind of debates. This is very, uh, very interesting to me. Um, and I think debates are a must-have, like what, what she's saying. She, I think she's absolutely 100% on the right track. I think this is how, it's just like, you know, even, even if in science, you write a paper, you have the peer review and everything is good, but then you present it, and then you have questions, and then somebody challenges your idea. And now, you have to have the knowledge and ability to defend it. And something good comes out of this. I think always something good comes out of this, but, um, yeah, it's not a, and, and even when we're talking about this kind of debate, it's not necessarily, I have to win and you have to lose. It's just like a, it's a conversation where you challenge and you listen and you get challenged. And ultimately both sides evolve in a good way. Like there is no, you know, it's, it's a very good, um, way of, of moving forward, but. Well, it's also uncomfortable too. Yeah, it's extremely uncomfortable. And, and my fear is because of that, we're going to end up back on the same thing. You're a good trainer. Tell me that I'm a good trainer. And now everybody tell us that we are very good and let's kumbaya, you know, we call that a

circle jerk. I, I really hate this. Hey, look at this. That's just written by about, uh, here, let's see. This one is about TWC here. It's good. Part of the town is a place to be where dogs learn to play. So while I'm free with love interested, they'll teach you the way conflict fades as they brighten the day. At Ivan school, we brought what we learned with joy and trust a bright fire beat. just written like instantly dude. It's wild. Yeah. Wild and you can change the style. You can, I mean, it's just, it's just. Career Bell says that he'll debate you on NAPO post system on your podcast. He'd be happy. So challenge ideas. Okay. It would be nice if someone find me a scientist to debate on odor with. They always find an excuse to avoid it. Cool, man. Yeah, I would agree with David on this because a few years ago I had Simone Gabor, the Canadian ethologist, you know. I had when, when, man, I, I don't know, like, I mean, he was like, I started a conversation with him and he's doing detection dolls with, doing research on detection dolls, but he's getting just pet people from around the block and they're doing some things. They don't lack motivation. I'm just like, just wasting money, I think. Not even understanding anything. So I can totally relate to David's frustration. It's like, but they're afraid to debate because they get exposed and that's the last thing they want to happen. it's very difficult. The whole thing is very difficult. Just like Kirubel right now, he keeps pushing the envelope and I've clearly told him that we're cool, like there is no reason for him to do, but he goes on. go on. Well, we're all free to, that's a beautiful thing about living in a free country and being free human beings is that we're free to express ourselves in the way, but the thing is that there are dogs that are counting on us and it is our moral obligation in my opinion to be the best stewards of these animals that we can be. Yeah. We've been talking forever and we've been talking kind of nonsense a little bit, but that's okay. We just need to just talk. I love it, man. I love it. Well, let's sign off because we're approaching four and a half hours. This is my longest live stream and I'm so honored that it was with you, Ivan. I'll come back down there. What's that? Hopefully everybody that was hanging around. Enjoy that. And thank you for challenging me and thank you for, you know, just being you and, and, you know, I appreciate, I appreciate your mind. I look forward to going to TWC. I like the conversations that we have,

not just pertaining to dogs either, man. We talk about a lot of stuff. And so. That's for sure. And again, I mean, we can think as challenge and whatever, but there is, there is never really a bad intention. It's actually, I'm always ready to change my mind. Yeah. We, as we all should be with new information presented and just so you guys know, I put up a link. This book here is amazing, but also I put up a link to the behavior, the foundations of behavioral science, the new behaviorism as well. And I'm going to get that book as well for, I didn't see that on your shelf when I was there, but now that I see it, that Rutledge, keep in mind that these books are not easy reads. They're pretty arduous, but they have a ton of great information. And just like I was saying earlier, you can open this book. In fact, let me, I'll show you really quick. I'm just going to randomly open a book like this. And then this page right here, a delay reduction hypothesis, a delay reduction hypothesis was developed to integrate data from a series of experiments on choice condition reinforcement. I mean, you can open this book on any page and it doesn't just, it has the graphs, it has all the data. get lost in it, you guys. This is, it talks about birds, lizards, rats, cats, dogs. I will, it's on, it's on my Kindle. The actual hard copy is in the house, but I will suggest you guys another book that's very interesting. Yeah. What books do you have? Let's sign off with some book recommendations. Here, I can't see it. Neurobiology of sensation and reward. Hold on. Let me find a link to that. It's not an easy one, but it's very, very, like you need, you need a little bit of a understanding to really fully, like I am on my, I kind of went through it one time just like this and now I'm really focused on very interesting topics of it. It is a very, it's very, very interesting book. I can. I put a link in the comments there, you guys, for this book. All right, Ivan, let's say goodbye to everybody here. Thank you guys for listening to all that nonsense. Again. Thanks, man. Sharon.