Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 40: Vladimir Dragicevic

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crying go out of course small village they know that i'm from that house and they call my parents they come and you know take me and then you know like dog was just next to me you know like and like i always was like that have that kind of things with dogs you know i can and that's like it's similar in serbia it's in bulgaria but there is a lot also street dogs right yeah yeah so so you get exposed to something that i think it's very special of of of dogs being dogs without necessarily being a house dog right even even in you know like you know yard dogs most of time in the world there was in some on some chain with some you know yeah metal pot sometimes is water there or sometimes it's not even water you know like they drop them you know like bread that's it you know like you know like so but somehow we are not was like that all our dogs was most of time free and everything so i always was with them you know playing with them in dirt you know like and everything you know so i always have that let's say empathy to the dogs even you know did you have any interaction with the like the you know like the sharp planines those kind of dogs or no no it not was so much popular in yeah in my village almost like these terriers and i remember my first let's say my first dog that i i was i don't know 11 12 years old when i get my german shepherd female you know linda so that is first that i was a little bit more interesting about you know to do something and then i remember that i get some books uh it's not a lot of books on serbian language language you know so i find some really old about german shepherds and how to train german shepherds yeah i don't know who is writer of that that books but i read some you know things and then i try you know to do something and then i also remember that uh i tried to to find some old blankets to put on my arm wrap on your arm right and you know try you know to play protection things you know of course and and with that female you know like everywhere i go with her for swimming and you know like we know have great time but let's say my first serious dog that i'm how i involved in igp or ipo in that moment yeah was belgian shepherd malina rumba yeah so in that moment uh in that moment with my girlfriend we decide you know like okay we can buy some you know working line dog you know and then we explore what we can do it so decision was on the malina you know like and we read a lot of about them like how they are active energetic and everything so okay we start searching

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you know we find some liters we go there and okay because we know how much they are you know like active we wanted to calm one you know like because okay we want active dog but not so much back you know like right and then you know like i saw one that was on the corner just sitting all other was playing and that one was like you know just sitting there and nothing you know like and then i said oh i wanted this one you know i didn't want to look this that not the play and everything yeah so i want this because she's calm and there is i will go over over team a little bit that is how people you know think when they go to choose puppy in one hour they can see a lot of things but you can't see nothing you know like when you're choosing pup you need to have breeder that you trust him that is from the beginning you know like with puppies and you will say okay i want puppy for pet or for competition or for this and then breeder if he has experience and everything he will say oh this puppy is yeah for you you know like yeah but we was thinking oh this is most calm one we want that one biggest mistake in that moment right but it was right choice you know from from this point when i look behind it was right choice because because she was like that she pushed us you know like to do every time more and more and more so when we come home you know like it was like switch immediately on the devil you know like and then how like that you know like we started with some you know basic trainings we went in some club do some you know obedience little bit you know basic obedience yeah obedience and then we was like oh maybe we want agility then we do some trainings with agility then they say oh there is also some things you know like protection you know what is that you know like uh igp or in that moment ipo what is ipo you know like we didn't know nothing about that but that is you know like tracking obedience protection but you know like it's need a lot of time for training and everything but in that moment because in that moment i was active karate in karate i was also competitor i compete on national championships on international world championships uh european championships so i was what style was i was what did you shot to can yeah so it's like that thing yeah so you know like and i was like you know professional everyday trainings almost every weekend competitions then you know preparation camps and everything so i say okay it's for ipo it's nice that but i don't have time you know like right it's definitely a big like yes where do you put your

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time right but you know a little bit okay we i do both things when i have time you know like for trainings i do some trainings but my focus was karate you know like because i was let's say really good in that and then you know happened that situation uh that on one competition i injured in my knee and it was necessary to do surgery and something more happened that i decided not to do and then i decided to stop with karate and then there is you know plenty of time so you know like right so i say oh what to do now you know because i'm used to undo you know like every day minimum two hours the discipline of doing discipline of doing and everything so i said okay now i have more time to make focus on dog training and like that i start you know like to be more and more and more and more in the in the ipo you know that was some somehow start of all of this you know so as far as the protection sports ipo was the thing in in serbia or did they do any ring stuff or what at the time okay let's say we have you know uh trainers who do ipo but i can say you know low level you know like uh ipo one and if somebody have ipo through in that three in that moment that was like maximum and then i you know like and they stay in there they don't let's say they don't want you know to do more they are on comfort zone and that's it you know like i remember one uh because they teach me like that you know like we go in that club and they okay now you are on ipo one you are staying there some time then you pass on ipo two because nobody is there you are staying there sometime to collect the cups and everything because you know nobody is there and then when you want to retire and your dog you pass ipo three and that's it you know like okay it's like that you know like because you don't know you know it's like that and then my first seminar was with mario verslipe and then so that was uh all of a sudden a whole different yeah something you know that's like totally open my whole different yeah open you know like really big door and you know and then everything finish that first day so you know dinner time and everything he said sitting next to me and then i asked him okay when you start to prepare your dog for ipo one when for ipo two and then when for ipo three and he said i don't understand then i repeat my question he said again i don't understand that i was confused so maybe my english is not good he said no no no i understand what you are saying but i don't see sense of that like sense yes you know like because you know like i immediately prepare my

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dog for igp three ipo three and i said oh normally you know like and then like when he spoke i immediately everything connect with karate you know like in karate if you have results you know like like kids you know like in junior or it's super but if you don't make results like senior it's yeah you know like it's not it's almost nothing but you know like you need to improve yourself on high level you know like on the senior senior level so it's same here okay maybe you can be best in ipo one or two but if you don't make best things in igp ipo three on big competition it's you know okay super bravo but it's right it's kind of like the saying of like you you can be the king of your little village yes yes but that's not what's about yeah ideally you want to i say everybody want to be champion in their yard you know like right and a lot of them it's you know champion in their yards or now on the social medias but when it's time to go on big competition so the first serious thing was with mario that's a that's a pretty good start yeah but you know before that when i say okay like uh i want to when i see what is ipo then i start you know like internet searching and then first thing that first videos what i watch is was from mario and yours videos i think from some world championship 11 12 years before yeah those are the times that me and him were yeah really so that is what i find like like okay mario i think in that moment two or three time world champion you two time world champion so i say okay if i start with this i want to be like those guys you know like you know because you know like you know because i was you know like in in karate i have that competition spirit you know like i want to fight with best one you know like i don't want like you say to be best in my village i want to be best yeah in country to try to be best europe balkan world i don't know like i always have this if you're putting time into something you want to yes do the max you can right so then when we start with with uh ipo competition so my first ipo competitions i won you know like i say wow my first dog first competition and i won like and there is people who is like more years involved in all of this so i want to say wow super you know like then second competitions we won again you know like wow super then i say okay let's go further you know like i think i'm good at this yes i was like wow super you know like i get this you know like so i said okay let's go somewhere you know further so first compete first

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international competition was in hunger we say we check on internet or there is some competition there we want there and then you know like uh cold shower we say you know reality yeah i make obedience judge read score 70 points wow like my first thing was okay this judge don't like us you know like that was was my first sure you know like yeah then okay i go out take a little bit walk put my dog in car and i went back then i start watching other competitors you know like and then i say okay this is something different you know like there are levels to this yeah yeah like not one level but you know two three levels you know above us you know like you know more focus more precisely yeah this more this then i said okay okay i now you know then we go back in our club i go to my trainers i say okay this is not good you know like but they try you know like no you see he take you a lot of points here a lot of points there you know like it's not just like that i say okay but you know i have my eyes you know like i'm and maybe sometimes i too much criticize myself you know like even today you know like but just too hard on yourself right i think that is something what push you you know to go forward you know like yeah when you have that self-critic you know like it's it's good to have it as long as you don't get discouraged and you start to go yes away yeah sometimes you're like oh i need i'm gonna go harder and better i need to yeah sometimes i have even that that i push myself back you know but sometimes that's good sometimes let's say it's not but right you need to have that i think self-critic you know but not so much you know like and then you know like after that i say okay i will not do any more trainings in that that club sorry so then we start you know search and then that first seminar was with with mario that like like we spoke like yeah open the big doors you know like yeah and then you know like we start go around in on seminars whenever we hear some seminars it's i don't know in croatia or and i remember that uh in that period you come in bulgaria i think twice uh so i think we first time we we meet there you know like it's i don't know yeah that's quite a while back those were really good times yeah really you know like i think maybe you know 10 11 12 years before was yeah you know like so you know like that you know we start seminar seminar seminars you know learning which is in a very different way what you did because again you you like in serbia didn't have that strong tradition like how germany or belgium or you know there's like already these champions

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and there is this tradition and structure and clubs and you can do places you you had to self-discover and search and go places and spend money to travel somewhere and you don't even know what to expect how much you learn or not learn yeah but you know like every seminar i remember even that uh on that seminar in bulgaria i meet this uh juta juta japan yes and then you know like yeah really nice guy you know like we made there and then you know we start speaking and then he told me that like how he is your big fan that every time when you are europe he is going there and only listen your seminars and i say sometimes you need to go in some bad seminar he said why i say even from bad seminar you can learn a lot of things yes you can learn how not to work yes even even if it is just to appreciate the good things of something else yes you know like to see you know like if you got some stupid idea to know oh i saw that on that seminar it's not working you know like he was like wow like you know he was so surprised you know so i think you know from every seminar doesn't matter yeah doesn't matter if it's good or bad you learn things you know like so what to do or what not to do you know somebody also show you know what what to do you know like so there is times it's interesting with seminars and some sometimes when somebody when you are watching a seminar and and you see day one something happening and you're like man this is ugly this is like what the hell is going on here and often people will be that just really dumb shit i'm driving back home yeah but if you stay to the end things can start to look different all of a sudden you start to find that it makes sense what was happening first day and where it went the last day so but that kind of comes with some experience i guess to be patient to even when you don't like something to be patient to see where it's going where it's actually gonna go because you can be very surprised what the end result can be right yeah regardless of of how it is done yeah yeah exactly how did the helper work came around because as we said i mean you've done world championships you're right now one of the five people selected for the fci this year yes so clearly a high level helper works tell me about that how did that end up happening so i think in that helper part a lot of karate again helped me a lot of in that because you know karate teach you know movement that you this momentum you know like okay i was in the fights so you know teach you that reaction how to you know if

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how to you know if uh control emotions control emotions timing timing exactly timing you know like teach you how to handle pressure that also helped me like in competition things you know like the percent yeah i remember my first world championships in sweden when i finished for example obedience i go out people was thinking that was my fifth six seven world champions but it was my first one they said wow like how i handled my dog yourself yeah but you know like because i also compete in karate you know like like i told you know almost every weekend competition so okay you have something in your stomach that i don't know how it say on english you you know like but when i step inside of the field or step inside of the fighting yeah arena like that is i lose that so i know how to we call it the butterflies butterflies yeah and they're good to have because they give you they give you i also teach that i want in karate right when i was like when i see my opponent and i think i think oh i will have easy fight you know like i will beat him easily and then i don't have this kind of butterflies most of time i lose that fights you know like too comfortable yeah you feel too comfortable so that will be easy and then it's not you know like so through karate i learned this all kind of things you know but i think it's also i mean for sure from doing serious sport any sport and competing in it helps you but you also have like i i believe that people either have that type of personality that they can and and and and other people that they cannot like even if you take karate like i've never done karate but i've done sambo and some jiu-jitsu and but it's same stuff and but any sport you know when you have you can be very good in the training part but when it comes to actually the challenge and the handling the pressure of competition any competition there is a special person that you either are or not yes then it's that like you say personality go right out but i think also you know like uh like even we are small country we have a lot of successful sportsmen you know like oh novak djokovic now in the nba böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle times that we have that, you know, make strong personalities, you know, like I remember in karate, let's say I have one of best results when I struggle a lot for, for example, because I live on the village. So when I start high school, I travel every day. So I need to wake up, I don't know, five, five something at the morning, take the bus, go to the school. So school. So there is no

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time to go back home, then stay to my cousin. I eat something, a little bit sleep, then training, and then going home and I go home 11.30. I'm at home. Then next day again. So in that period when I, it's, you know, like it was really hard for me, you know, like, you know, like every day wake up early morning, you spend all day in the big city, you know, like and everything. In that moment, I have some best of my results in karate, you know, like, you know, so somehow that, you know, hard times, you know, like make you stronger and make that personality. Also, I think that is same with IPO, you know, like, because it not was easy at all, you know, like, like you say, we need, I need to travel like Croatia, Bulgaria, go there, go there, you know, like try to find some equipment, then you can find it, then I build by myself, you know, something, you know, like, so that, you know, and you don't have the support, like you can go to a workshop or a seminar, you can get something out, but then you come back home and now you're trying to replicate. And then something goes wrong. Yes. And now it's all you, you have to figure it out. Yes, how it's, you have to figure it. There is nobody. Yes. They show you, let's say one step, but then you're like, after some time, you pass this step. So what next, you know, like, so you are on alone, you know, like on that. So let's say, you know, like that, what all, you know, like, happen, you know, like help you somehow, you know, like, so how about my helper work? Yeah. So I remember one competition, it was one competition in Belgrade. I remember even when he was competing there with, with his dog champion and I remember, yeah, I remember him that he was, when he go out, you know, like with, you know, like with his, this, his attitude, how he's walking, so confident with, I think also he has some black sunglasses, something like that. And I think he take on IGP three on that moment. Andras Benke was judged. He take 99 on protection, you know, like, nice. Oh, that was, wow, super, you know, like, and then I go in the field, you know, when there's some break and then that helpers, I think was two helpers from, from Hungary. Of course, you know, they put sleeve on the side. So I was looking on that sleeve and go around like, you know, like, Oh, look that sleeve. And then you come back again. Then I go on side and I come back again. Should I take them, take that sleeve to try, but okay, maybe they will be angry on me, like, because I taking

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their equipment and everything. So I was looking, Oh, nicely, can I try it? But in that moment, I didn't try, you know. So then next time in club, I saw sleeve. Okay, let's try it. Then I put my hand inside. And I was surprised because inside this. You put it in the wrong. No, no, no, I put it on right hand. I put, but you know, like, there was a handle. I was surprised. Oh, it's handle inside. Normally, it's handle inside. Otherwise, the dog will take it. And then I put that sleeve. And I remember this, this, uh, when I put that sleeve on my hand and I said to myself, Oh, it'd be so nice if, if one day I can be, you know, I can be, you know, I can be, you know, I can be, you know, help in my head, you know, like, you know, like, even if I don't expecting at all that it will be going that direction. I was, I have that, you know, like, Oh, it'd be so nice if I can be, you know, helper in big, big, you know, competition. That's where it starts. You have to, you have to dream and you have to, you have to call it in a way. Otherwise, if you don't, Yes, of course. It's not gonna happen. Yes. I always say, you know, like even today when I, you know, teach some other helpers or when I have somebody who want to do competitions or something, I always say to them, you need to have big goals, big dreams, you know, like, it doesn't matter if you will get there, but you need to have big dreams. If you have small dreams, for example, your dream is, Oh, IPO1, IGP1. Yes. You will have BH, you will be close to IGP1, but if you have big dreams, Oh, I want big competition, I want this. So you're, you will have big progress and you will be close and you, you will ever achieve that, you know, goal that you have, you know, like, so I always say you need to, you know, dream big, you know, like, and that's how, like, I say, I even now, like, my biggest dream is to become world champion in one moment. And I say to myself when I start with this, I will be world champion, you know, like one day. It doesn't matter if it will be, you know, like, next year, in couple of years, doesn't matter. So, like, but when you have big goal, of course, you will put smaller goals, you know, because it's not, it can be like immediately, Oh, I'm there and I'm world champion, you know, like, so I put to myself, you know, some smaller goals on that way to become, you know, something big, you know, like, yes, that's a good way to do. That's a good way to do. And man, I mean, I think everybody that has won. And I don't, I cannot speak for everybody. But that that's what I'm saying. I think that everybody

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that has won. They, everyone started with the dream that that's what they want to get to. Yeah. The crazy thing is that probably many trainers want to, but few accomplish it. And what makes it is that like, I always think about this is very interesting for me. Because it's like, sometimes I, I feel that there will be somebody is like, Oh, I'm gonna become a, even if it's not world champion, I'm gonna be a national champion. But somewhere in here, they have a hesitation, they know that they're saying it, but they don't believe in themselves. But it's interesting what happens with the people that really believe and are trying. But ideally, when you think about it, in the last 20 years, you have 20 champions. So what happens? Yeah, then you have to know how to somehow, like, I just just speaking for myself, that this is like a super interesting conversation for me, because I have the same thing. I'm like, Oh, yeah, I'm gonna be a world champion. And then there have been times something meant, how would I handle the situation if I, if they didn't happen, then you have to somehow, it's between, well, you cannot hesitate, you have to go all in. Like for sure, if you want to become champion, you have to go all in. But then somehow you have to be able to manage the disappointment and still continue to pursue the goal, right? Yes, I think it's if you give your best, if you give 100% yourself, and then even if you don't succeed, you can, you can say, Oh, I didn't do this, this and this. And then you blame these things that you didn't do. Then you start blaming yourself. Why I didn't make this? Why I didn't make this? And because of that, I didn't achieve my goal. Yeah. But if you do your best. Yeah, that's the discipline, right? Yes. That's like when it's like, no, no, it's 5.30 and it's raining and it's cold, but I'm going to track. Yes. Or my friends are going to a birthday party and I'll be back. I'll be there, but yeah, I need to go to the training field and do something with my, these are the sacrifices, right? Yes, of course. Like I again, go back on karate karate teach me that, that, you know, friends call you like, you know, in that moment, you are like young guy, you know, just start, you know, parties and everything, everybody go out, you know, like, you know, and then they'll start calling you. Then you say, Oh, I can't tomorrow morning. I have training or tomorrow I have competitions, you know, like, and then, you know, this karate teach me that kind of discipline of trainings, for example, that it doesn't matter if

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it's tomorrow, like you say, rain day. I also remember one situation before this, my first world championship in Sweden. I wake up one morning, it's so heavy rain, like, then I first think, no, no, I will not go. Then I say, Oh, when I go tomorrow in Sweden, you know, like long trip, everything, expensive. Then I go there and, oh, start rain. I will say, Oh, judge, sorry, my dog don't work on the rain. No, it's not possible, you know, like, so I say, okay, let's go. And I find one field next to the bus bus station. And then I look on the, when I start playing the track, I look on face that people on bus station, Oh, this guy probably is crazy what he's doing. Yeah. Yeah. In the middle of the field, you know, heavy rain. And then, you know, after that with dogs, so probably he's crazy. He needs some help. Yes. But that is how it's work. You know, like if you, I have the same stories. Like when I, I mean, that when I had to escape from, because it was communism, right? So Bulgaria, and I got somehow, to Belgium. And then I started to train in the club. And, and then they, I don't know. I mean, that's so far out, but I think it was pretty intensive. I want to say that it was three times a week, but at least two times for sure. And I don't show up. I don't show up. I don't show up. And finally, one of the guys calls me. It's like, what's going on? I'm like, it's raining. He was laughing so hard. He couldn't even talk. He's like, dude, it's always raining in Belgium. Get your ass to the club now. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, you did this like, yeah. So there, there's these things. It's very cool. And, and so, so back to the helper work, you've got the sleeves, you've got the bug inside, you've got the... Yeah. I want to do. So they give me, you know, a little bit of chance in that club, you know, like to do something, you know, with some dog, some helper things, you know, like... And then somehow that stop, you know, at all. So then, then in one period, nothing, you know, helper work, you know, even if I buy, you know, my first helper pants, my first sleeve, we soft stick and everything. And then, you know, like nothing, nothing, you know, like... And in one moment, one of my friends, he called me, oh, do you want to do some, you know, you know, helper work, protection work. He, you know, he is taking dogs, you know, to prepare them, you know, for, you know, the self-protection, guard work and everything. He said, okay, you know, like I need somebody, you can do whatever you want, you know, like, you know, like it's, even if you make

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some mistake, it's not that that dog gets will go for a gift. Yeah. So I immediately take that, that chance, you know, like, and then, uh, I not, not maybe every day, but for sure, every second day we do some, you know, like helper work. And then I do, you know, like what I was thinking that is good in that moment. So I do a little bit experiment, push more or less, see what, how dog react on that, you know, having the courage to experiment. Yes, you know, because it's, it's, it was, you know, like, not that pressure that if you make some big mistake, it's, you know, like something that happened to dog, you know, like, and then, you know, like that was like really, really nice experience for me, you know, like to have that kind of dogs and some dogs was, you know, soft one, but even with that kind of dogs, you need to know how to, you know, like, build them self-confidence and everything. Then it was some, you know, really strong dogs, aggressive dogs, you know, so it was... You kind of right away got exposed and started to like, okay, I cannot work everybody the same way. Yes, yes, yes. So I see, you know, like, difference, so with this dog, like on this way, on this dog, that's just not gonna work with. Yes, yes, exactly. But that was, you know, like really, really good experience for me, you know, like, uh, and like that, I, you know, start more and more and more than I pass, uh, helper license and then, you know, little by little bit, I, you know, got a chance for some, you know, to be helper on some exams, you know, like... Club trials, right? Yeah, club trials and then, uh, yeah, yeah, and that, in that period, I, uh, I start, we start working with people from Czechia, you know, like, uh, because I was crazy about all of these things, you know, competition, competitions and everything, so, uh, we start to, you know, just go and watch world championships, you know, like, so, I remember on first world championship, we just watch, you know, official trainings and, you know, like, start taking notes, you know, what, you know, I don't know, trainers fall from Germany, what, how they are, do official training, so, oh, he do this, this guy do this, Knut Fuchs work on this, Mario work this, you know, Ivan work this, so, we, you know, like, we have catalog and, you know, taking the notes, you know, like, what they are doing, what they are doing before, you know, like, on the official training, because, you know, a lot of trainers, the training is the, like, the competition is the result of your training, yes, yes, so, this is where you need to

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pay attention, so, we take notes, you know, for example, how, how somebody prepare dog for, uh, send away, you know, like, and then after that, I saw how that working on competition, you know, like, so, okay, this kind of preparation, or it's good on the competition, or not good, so, you know, yes, and, uh, that was on the first championship that this kind, then on second, I wanted to see how competitors prepared themselves before they enter on the field, so I not was on the field, so I was behind the field, you know, watching, you know, how, you know, like, it was interesting for me, for example, Knut Fuchs, you know, when it's obedience, he comes just on the normal color, when it's protection, he come on that area, on harness, you know, so that is what, what was interesting for me, you know, like, how there, how competitors preparing dog and dog himself for something, you know, like, so on that next one, I, like, I was behind of the field, and then on third one, we meet that, uh, people from Czechia, you know, watching and everything, you know, start a little bit speaking, from where you are, we are from Serbia, blah, blah, blah, and then we, you know, like, was, we have a good time, and then they say, okay, it'd be nice to visit Serbia, you are welcome, and then they come, that was like, uh, I need to say, like, Iveta and Milena, they come first time in Serbia, and that, it was like, let's say, because on seminars, when seminars, seminar, you know, trainers just speak on their technique, you know, how they, you know, like, uh, how work from, let's say, from the beginning to the, to the end, yeah, but with, with, with Milena and with Iveta, they, they show us, you know, training, training, you know, like, how they are really trained, you know, like, in, with some problems with this and this, and then, that was like, surprise for me, it's something, you know, different, valuable, yes, yeah, you know, like, and then, you know, like, uh, they suggest us to bring Marek, Marek Urban, so, uh, that was next stage in our training, and he also a lot of, he helped me a lot in my helper work in the training, and also like, uh, competition helper, because I can say for myself that I'm Czech style helper, you know, like, this kind of technique and everything in competition, yeah, so he helped me a lot and, uh, like in training also, and like in, like competitor, you know, like helper in competition, you know, so we work, you know, some periods together, and like I say, like, I little bit by little bit

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get chance in some local trials, and then my first, let's say, bigger competition was in Croatia, uh, they give me chance to be helper there, like for their nationals, yeah, it was, uh, their national, you know, yeah, national championship, you know, okay, let's say it be 20 dogs, I think, you know, like, something like that, and then after that, after that next competition was world championship, ooh, so that was, you know, like, like, so at that point, what did you feel more comfortable, the, the front or the back half? I, you know, like in that moment, I, you know, like if you, if you had the choice to say, this is the part I want to do, which one you would take for, from this moment, I always will choose, you know, first part, technical part, because I, I go through this second part, you know, and I know how, how hard one is, you know, like, and, uh, so if I can choose now, for sure it will be first part, but, yes, you know, like, because, you know, long attacks, it's special story, I can say, there is always something, yes, for sure, that was, you know, like, about that world championship, so it's, you know, it's sometimes, you know, not sometimes, it's really hard, you know, like, to be helper in other country, you know, like, you know, to get to even get chance, you know, like, you know, to be there, like, you know, like, and that, that championship was in Slovenia, so, talking about the world championship, yes, I mean, that was hard throwing you really into a lion's cage, yeah, that soon, that, that's tough, that, that was, there is also story about that, you know, like, how everything start, you know, like, like, so the first plan was that FMBB be in Italy, but Italy canceled, and then Slovenia accept, uh, to be host of that FMBB, so when I hear that immediately I have idea in my head, oh, because I was in good relationship with people in Slovenia, so I call, uh, my really good friend, Nanad, Nanad Milojevic, so I call him and say, oh, I have one idea, so if you can come to my house to speak about that, and then he come to me, say, okay, I'm listening, you know, I say, ah, do you know that FMBB this year or next year will be, you know, like in Slovenia, so I have idea if we can work somehow just to be reserved there, to let you try there, yeah, but to give me chance just to, you know, sitting there, you know, to be reserved and to be there, you know, that will be even that start, yes, good start, you know, it's actually the better start, yes, yes, and he told me like, and Nanad, I always like, and I even today I have a lot of, you know, conversation with him, and, uh,

48:45

uh, I think also he helped me a lot to stay on the ground, you know, like, uh, in all period, do like, even, even today, you know, like to not, you know, when, when you achieve something, a lot of people start flying, you know, like, and, you know, not touching the ground, you know, but he always, you know, like, and because of that, I a lot of time like to, you know, speak with him because I remember first time when I asked him something, he, he told me like this, you don't need second mother and father to praise you, you know, like to say what is good, so if you ask me about opinion, I will tell you like honestly what I think and what I think you can do better, you know, so in that moment when he come to my home, uh, I tell him, okay, if, if we can work on that, that to just be reserved there and he told me like, like this, you know, like, I think that you are idea on the edge of the road, then I was, you know, what happened, you know, I was confused, you know, like, and he then next, next was like this, you know, like, I don't think that you don't deserve to be there, I think you, you are good helper, but you know, to go there in another country where they have their own helpers and just to come there and say, hey, I want to this guy to put him to be reserved, it's, you know, it's not nice, you know, it's really, it's really hard. Especially when, when somebody can say, well, what, who is he, what has he done, like, how, why, you know, like, he come from some Serbia, like, I didn't have experience of previous competitions, nothing, you know, like, and then, you know, like, he told me like that and then we continue conversation in some other direction and we finish, so I was like, you know, like, okay, maybe he is right, it's not easy because Slovenia in that moment, they have experience of organizing, you know, no, yeah, they do that few times, yes, you know, a few times already, you know, like, and they have helpers, you know, like, experienced helpers and everything, you know, like, and then, you know, like, okay, okay, not good idea at all, then tomorrow, he called me back and say, oh, I think about that all night, almost, you know, like, maybe it's not even bad idea, maybe it's idea good, but we need to work on that, it's not, it can be like, just, you know, like, oh, we can't put us there, give us chance to be, so we need somehow to work on that, in that moment already, we know about some helper seminars there, like, about Perio, yes, you know, like, not just to prepare me, but just to show myself in front of other people, you know, like, you know,

51:34

you know, you know, you know, helper seminars, then was also examination for helpers, you know, like, so just to start, you know, to people see, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, good way, that is one thing, and then also in that moment, you know, like, I also call Milos Kovac, I also, you know, like, this is, you know, like, also one guy who has, I don't know how to say maybe biggest impact in, in my, you know, IGP career, you know, like, like helper and, and then I call him, you know, also and tell him about that idea, what I have, you know, like, and he immediately said, oh, good idea, you know, like, we need one more helper, because some helpers in Slovenia, that moment, they start fighting each other, something, some politics, yeah, some politics starting happen, so he said, oh, they need one more helper, I didn't think about you immediately, but I think it's good idea, okay, let's work together on that, so we start working on that, the stars are starting to line up for blood, yes, somehow, you know, all, you know, pieces start, you know, like, coming together, you know, so I went for that seminars, I pass that examination thing, you know, like, there in Slovenia, and people were surprised, you know, like, wow, you know, like, you know, Milos like, helped me a lot, like, he said, okay, you have good technique, good things, but there is, you know, some small things that you need to fix to be even better, because, you know, sometimes it's hard when you are training helper and competition helper, so because most of time you spend in training, you know, try somehow to help dogs and everything, but in competition, it needs to be totally opposite, you know, like, so I needed that switch, you know, to switch myself, yes, to switch my personality that might not be, I'm not helping you, I'm not helping you, exactly, you know, like, and Milos like, helped me a lot, a lot in that kind of things, because in that period when he was helper, everybody say that he was, let's say, 10 years in front of everybody, and he has that kind of experience and everything, and then, you know, like, let's say, we work on that, and then come that, they say, okay, you will get a chance to, when board of FMBB come there, you will have a chance to show yourself, you know, like, and then when you get that chance, you know, like, you will not let her go, you know, like, you need to do your best in that moment, you know, like, to show yourself, and then, you know, like, it was few tests, and then they choose me

54:21

on long attack, you know, like, and I was so happy in that moment, you know, like, and I remember Nenad was outside of the field, I went out, and he said, oh, what happened, you know, like, you are reserved, say no, say, ah, okay, I mean, how you think you are in, I'm on long attack, and he say, he say just, oh, super congratulation, and nothing, I was, you know, so excited, so happy that, you know, like, I get a chance, I take that chance, and then they, you know, like, put me on long attack, I was, you know, not just, I didn't think at all, you know, like, what that's meaning, you know, I just was happy because, you know, like, I wanted to be reserved, but, accomplishing, yes, even more than what I, and then, you know, like, it was a little bit more in Slovenia, and then we started driving home, I remember Nenad was next to me, he was driving, and almost one hour, nothing, he was so quiet, he's all stressed out, because this is like a huge responsibility, and he understands that, and you don't, yes, yeah, like, I look at him, you know, like, why he's not saying nothing, you know, like, I was, you know, so happy, so excited, nothing, nothing, you know, like, I said, what's happening, you know, like, yeah, and let's say what, after, you know, one hour, he say, okay, and like you say, he was so much in stress, he said, okay, it's super, but I'm so in stress, and he said again, I don't think that you don't have quality for that, but you don't have experience, you don't have experience, and this, you know, this competition, this world championships can put you on the top, or can you put, and also, it can be the end of your career, and it can be the end, and it's more chance, be to be end of my career, because of that, I don't have experience, long, long attack, yeah, malice, you know, like crazy, fast, and everything, and then, you know, like, he said, I'm so afraid about this, what will happen, you know, like, and then, you know, like, I was thinking a little bit about that, but then I stopped, you know, thinking about that until one moment, then, you know, like, how it's, you know, championships coming close, then, uh, they called me to come in Czechia, you know, with, uh, Czech national team to do some training, you know, like, with them, and I went there, so first round was, let's say, easy work, a lot of learning, to listen to this, like, it was, first round was like, okay, warm up for dogs, for me, and everything, and then we have, you know, break, and then, play, Hacek asked me, you know, why you want to

57:12

be, you know, helper on long attack, especially on FNBB, and I say, but, you know, like, this is something, you know, honor for me, you know, like, I'm coming from Serbia, what kind of honor, did you see how fast this dog is there, do you want to people, you know, like, uh, swear at your, yeah, to, you know, to tell all, I say, no, but, you know, ah, you will see, you will see, you know, like, and then we start second round of training, and then we take, you know, really long distance, you know, really long attacks, and those missiles are coming, oh man, like, then after that, I realize, oh, shit, oh, like, you know, like, now I, then I start become a little bit concerned, concerned, and maybe a little bit afraid, you know, what can happen, you know, like, and, uh, it's a big responsibility, the long fight is a big responsibility, like, I always say, you know, like, even when I teaching the helpers, and when I come to that part of long attack, first, what I say, most important part is about helper work, it's not every helper for long attack, absolutely, and I tell them that, that, that first, most important that not everybody for long attack, and second thing, that don't mean that you are not a good helper, that mean that you are responsible helper, that you are respecting that dog, that you are respecting that, uh, handler, so if you don't feel that you are capable to do this, and you are accepted, for sure, this is recipe for disaster, you know, like, uh, and then, you know, like, you can injure dogs, yourself, it's not good, no question, yeah, no question, I think, you know what I think, it's the, it's just the way things, the way helper gets elected, it can be done better, and we've had these conversations in different times, but even, even when they're, like, let's say, they are watching five helpers, and they say, well, you're gonna do this half, you're gonna do this half, I think it's always, it, it, it would be so much better, even when, let's say, two or three judges are evaluating, and watching, and they say, okay, well, I saw this helper catching two dogs on the long bites, and he did super, if I'm a judge, I would always walk to that helper, and say, how do you feel, which part do you feel more comfortable at? Yeah, exactly. Because that's so important, even if you have two catches back-to-back that are beautiful, how do you ultimately feel, which part you feel you're better at? It's important for the, of course, the judge to know, but they never really seem to ask you that. Then, that's in that, uh, uh, FBB 2018, they, they asked before, you know,

1:00:19

is somebody don't want to do long attacks, or they're more prefer longs, or short, you know, like, so I remember then, in that moment, they asked us, you know, like, how do you feel, you know, like, so very good, but I think even if they ask, you know, like, I, I'm not sure that you have the experience to, to answer it, correctly. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So, yeah, that was, you know, like, but again, I go back, you know, like, like, I need, again, to say, like, how much Milos helped me, like, about my preparation, like, mental preparation, how, you know, to be focused, how to handle that kind of, uh, pressure. He, I speak a lot of time with him, and, you know, I need to say how much he is today missing, how much I miss him, you know, like, and, like, and how much I need this kind of conversation, again, even that, some months before when we have that, uh, helper selection in Croatia for FCI, you know, like, I try to remember what kind of things he is telling me, you know, like, and, and, on which, for what I need to be prepared, you know, like, so... You know, me and Milos, we, man, we were friends for a long time, like, and, of course, he, he's in Europe, I'm in the States, but we go to competition, and somehow, I don't know why, but we end up talking, and every time we had incredible conversation, like, very, very interesting and stimulating, like, you get excited about talking dogs with him. He had a, he, I don't know, that was, like, early 90s, and he had a dog that, his name was Ivan, and, and he was doing really good, and I'm like, man, he has a chance, and I, at that point, I didn't even talk to the guy, I didn't know him. He had very, I don't remember, but he had good scores in obedience in, in tracking, good enough to, to place in a good place, and he's doing the first part of protection, and it's going really good. He goes, like, he goes, like, he goes, like, I remember it, like, he goes for healing for the long bite, he puts the dog on a seat, and the dog somehow, as he walked away, he saw the helper going out of the field, and he got fixated looking there, like, so strong, that the one, the second helper comes out, comes forward, keeps yelling, he is there. I'm like, what is that going to look like? And, of course, it ended up very bad, because he, he eventually got the bite, but he went like this, you know? But, ultimately, because of all the conversations we've had, and, you know, regardless of how he was training and everything, he, he, he had very good passion and understanding.

1:03:24

And then he was, became a judge, and I had him, and Mojtza, I mean, he, he judged one of the Malino nationals here, he stayed in my house. Ah, yeah, I didn't know that. Oh, no, no, we have a, quite a bit of, of, you know, a good friendship we had with him. And Nenat also is not a foreigner in the States, like, in the 90s and early 2000, when we had a different president with AWDF, and somehow he, he always would come, even if he didn't judge, he would be, in some way, involved with the organization. Yeah, yeah. But in a very good way. Yeah, yeah. So, it's very kind of interesting that, you know, when you talk about Nenat and Miloš, I have also, and, and many people have that they've been around them, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then, then on that, you know, like, on that championship, it was, I think, you know, hard the situation in my helper career, you know, like, even if that moment it's not was so long, you know, because I, I have just one big competition before that. So, it happened one situation with one dog from Germany, from Maure and Wagner, I think, I say, good that name with dog blue, that, we have, you know, let's say, impact with dog, and dog go out injured, you know, like, oh, that was, like, hardest, hardest, you know, like, time for me, you know, like, because, you know, I also think, you know, like, when you are helper and competitor, that you are even better understanding, you know, like, yeah, the importance of everything, you know, like, and I think that every helper, you know, like, need to be involved also in the, to be like, competitor, you know, to, to have, to appreciate, yes, exactly, you know, like, and the respect and everything, you know, so, so, that happened, and it was on the middle of the group, you know, like, so, it's not like, oh, like, I will stop now. I was there, I saw it. Yeah, yeah, like, of course. It's never, this is never an easy thing, so I'm curious to hear your take right now, after so many years, because I know this is something that, as a helper, stays with you. Yeah, it's, you know, like, changes how you see it, so I'm, I'm very curious. But stay, you know, like, even, even if you, like, okay, you never can forget this, you know, like, but even if you are living in the past, you know, like, then people come, you know, like, some on bad way, some of good way, try to ask, you know, but more is... Especially at the moment. Especially in that moment. Emotions are running high. In that moment was like, but I need to clear my head because it was in middle group.

1:06:30

Yeah. So it was four dogs more. You cannot stay shaken. You need, you know, like, you know, to, to try to stay focused, you know, to not happen again. Extremely tough. Like, and then again, I go back, like, how much karate helped me, like, in this situation to try to clear my head and to finish that group. And then, you know, like, I finish that group and we go to dressing room and I remember that I enter in building. And, you know, in my head was like, you know, like, I don't hear nothing, you know, like, it, it. And then somebody stopped me and start talking something. And then I start looking and then I just remember that I see German flag on the chest. Oh, man, I was thinking, oh, now they come, you know, to, you know, blame me about all of this and everything. That was my first thing, you know, like, you know, for sure they come, you know, to argument with me, you know, but in one moment that was hardest situation on the field and then maybe one of the best thing in that moment because two team leaders come to me and I don't remember who was. Like, I know just one of them is also helper in Germany, really good, good helper. And both of them come to me to say that it's not my fault that I'm doing amazing job and, you know, like, and then just to continue like that because it's, you know, like everything it's okay. It's can happen when you're like doing like that on that level that normally that can happen. Something can happen. Yeah, something can happen, you know, like, so that they also told me that they spoke with other people from German team and then that I have support from all of them. That's so cool. That was, you know, like so cool from them. Because I feel a little bit relief, you know, after that, you know, like, because, you know, they come and give me support, you know, like, of course. And then, you know, like... And that's a hard time to give support because you, you, you know... And then, you know, then, you know, even if they try to put me out of, you know, like all of these rumors and everything, of course, it's come to you, you know, and then they say, oh, broken neck, broken spine, broken ribs, broken this, broken this. So a lot of information come to me, like, you know, even I didn't know if it's true or not, you know, like... Right, right. And then, you know, after some hours, you know, like the Mauren text me, like... Because she got to one wet, second wet, one wet, say, like this, second wet, like that. So she take her dog and went to Germany immediately to the her wet. They check everything. And then she text me, like...

1:09:32

And that was, like, really nice also from her, you know, like... And I don't know how many competitors, because in that moment, you know, like you are in high motion, your dog is injured and everything, you know, like... It's a roller coaster. Yeah, it's, you know, like... And she text me, like, that, okay, dog is injured, nothing, nothing serious. She told me, like, just... Dog stretch some muscles on the back. That some... If I remember where some old injured, that... She said that that happened to her dog, but when she... Accept to compete on that kind of level of competitions, there is also chance to something... You are taking. Yeah. You take that risk, you know, like, that something like that can happen, that she said why that happened to her dog, but still, she's accepting that, that is, you know, high level for competitions, she's not blaming me at all, you know, that's it, you know, just, you know, continue with your work, everything, it's okay, you know. So that was, like, you know, for me, you know... A lot of people wouldn't do that, but that's the right thing to do. Because you're not doing anything on purpose, right? Yeah, of course. You're not doing this on purpose. You... Yeah, it's a tough one. But after that... I remember me walking to you also, I'm like, you gotta shake it, you know. You gotta shake this off and you gotta... You really cannot stay with this because you have so many... You had two more days to go. Yes, yes, yes. I'm like, you cannot. You probably... When I came to you, I don't think you would remember because you were... No, no, I was... That was a very much... Yes, I was, you know, like, I remember when that happened and then I go... Go out after that dog. I remember that I throw my sleeve, you know, like, and that... I was saying to me, I don't want anymore, you know, like... Right, right. And then you need to, you know, clear your head and say, okay, you need to, you know... And that's not easy. It's not easy at all, you know, like, and then, you know... But, you know, it's happening, you know, it's... And then after that competition, because before... You know, like, when I watch World Championships, a lot of time I have comments on Helper, especially sometime on long attacks. And then after that competition, when I pass all of these 130, 40 dogs and everything, get that experience, I say to myself, never, never again I will make some, let's say, comments on Helper. Quick, quick emotional comments.

1:12:00

Yes, yes, yes, because, like I, like we say, that long attack, especially on Mali national championships or FNBB, it's hardest thing, mentally hardest thing, you know, like, to do, you know, like, not so physically, but mentally, it's, you know, so hard, you know, like... Because there is no... That you can say, oh, I will be relaxed, you know, like, now kind of relax a little bit. No, it's, you need to, from the first until last dog, 100% to be focused from the moment when you step behind that blind, before moment that judge give you sign that you can go to that middle line, and then especially moment when you face the dog, you know, like, that is, you know, like, hardest part that, you know, like... And that's when we talk about being a competitor and also being a helper, how much difference it makes in understanding the responsibility because you're on both sides and you know, you know both sides. And... Yeah, very tough one. Man, you had a incredible... I mean, I'm really from, from where you're studying and how much you had to search and find your ways because, again, there is not much, if any tradition in the country to going right away into world championship. Yeah. On a Malino championship, doing the back half. And, of course, something didn't go as good as it had to. Which happens in every competition. Yeah. This is inevitable. Yeah, yeah. Right? There's no way you can catch 120 dogs. Without any... There is absolutely not possible. Yes. But that's... A lot of people don't understand that, you know, because they didn't was there. And after that, I have a lot of comments from the people who even didn't do helper works at all. Never, you know, even on training. Yeah. And then, they start making comments. Ah, look at this, look at this, he injured the dog and everything, you know, like... That was, you know, crazy. Even, you know, like, if you try not to listen to this, it's somehow, you know, you hear this kind of comments, you know, like, and... So, let's go back to... Your dog. Because he's gonna be... What? How old is he now? In May, he'll be 10 years old. He'll be 10 years old. Yes. And you're still planning to do the Sassit in Dubrovnik. In... Or where is it? In Dobrys. In Dobrys, in Czechia. Yeah. Yeah. We... I have for now this plan to, you know... And... How old was he when he got this beautiful obedience score? Like... Was it a year ago? Two years? Half year before. Right. In Memorial Miloš Kovac. Right. It was... He... Ninth and half, you know, like... And... We got best obedience, you know, 96, you know. But... He's, you know, like, in...

1:15:22

You know, really, really good shape, you know, even if he's, like... In... One month or two, he will be 10. He's gonna be with the walkers coming on the field. No, no, he is still... He's not giving up. No, no, no. He is still, you know, like... When I look at him, you know, like... How much he is happy when he goes on the training and I don't see him at all, you know, like in... In any situation, you know, like in the training, obedience or... that he is, you know, going down, you know, with something that you know, like you can feel, oh, he is like grandpa, but it's not, you know, like... I mean, it's insane. I mean, there is not that many dogs at that age that can still not just participate, but really do it, you know, competitive. Right? but but really do it yes competitive right even now in the in in Slovenia last year on fci he was nine and something still he has you know like you know obedience okay we have some mistake you know like because i always yeah but you were making you know like this training stuff right it's always training stuff yes you know like okay you know like but still you know like even that people was like wow like nine years and something like and on that kind of level of work is yes but maybe maybe it's you know like okay it's for sure one part of genetic and maybe second part the one good thing uh in Serbia that we don't have qualificatio i mean good thing for me like competitors and for my dog that we don't have qualification so i can go directly on the world championships you know like so it's not because you know every competition dog you have to train and you yes to even train even more after that so i i know when i sometimes speak with somebody from i don't know czechia when they say that have two three qualification for fmbb then two three qualifications for fci so even if they make qualification so that is you know seven eight yes trials you know and that's not easy for an older dog to yes stay in yes in shape you know so it's even more you know harder trainings you know like and after every trials to get some experience so competition and everything so you know like so here is the interesting question for me i've never had a dog to go that far and i probably could have but i'm like okay it's it's time to stop for you it seems like no it's not time to stop we're gonna keep going until he if he wants to do it and he's healthy we keep going but the interesting question that i have here is how does the training change when he was four and when he's nine like like preparation for competition

1:18:27

so when he was because when he's nine yeah he cannot do as much but he knows yes now to where when he was three you can do a lot yes but he didn't know now we don't work hard we work smart you know like that is you know like uh so now i need to be you know smarter in in training so it's not to be so hard for him overwork him yes of course you know even if he want you know like uh i said you know like that probably he will die in the uh with the living mouth you know like so which is not a bad way right yeah it'd be nice that you know so you know like even if he want i need you know to stop so you know like now it's sometimes you know like i leave him in on in the yard you know he's running barking so now there is no more that kind of things because you know like he's become injured you know like yeah start running you know chasing something you know then stopping that and then he come you know a little bit limping you know like so this kind of things i try you know to stop and then you know more time to you know warm up him more time to cool down him a little bit you know stretching you know like so let's say you know know when he was young you know like you say oh no problem you know just from car go out you know like go we do when we do it again and we do it again yes no problem you know like so it's you know like like i say you know like we need to train more smarter you know like but okay now he has you know experience he know you know how thing it's work you know like so it's now it's just to keep him in the form you know like that you know that's it you know like because about you know training training you know he has all he knows yeah he knows yeah so next question we have obedience we have tracking we have protection when they're young one phase is better than another as they get older the phases that they get better start to kind of change did that happen with him to where he or was he always really good at one phase and not as good in one phase i i was with him i was thinking that obedience will be worst part for him you know like because yeah i was thinking like that because from early age he was so hard to train him in obedience it was like like it was situation that i want to kill him you know like in the training that was frustrating yeah so so much frustrating for frustration for me like like i was thinking oh obedience for sure will be worst discipline for him like as far as him not getting it or he wanting to do it his way or he don't get anything you know at all you know so for something we need you know if some dogs can finish in few trainings for

1:21:31

him need you know a few months you know like uh do something understand you know even if i try you know okay let's try on this way let's try on that way you know like i try you know like a few different you know techniques or styles whatever but like for him was struggle like really struggling you know but then when he got something he was like for example that that is difference with female and him you know for female she was you know so smart then that preparation how to enter on the field and everything need to be so you know like in order you know to prepare her to enter on the field and you know do obedience or protection so it not was possible you know like you you are on the street and say you know fools and she will do fools if you see on the street you know fools or something she will just look at me oh we are not on in training field what you want from from me you know like it was like that but with him you can say in any kind of situation whenever you are on the street on the beach wherever you can when you say fools he was in the perfect yeah like immediately bam you know like in perfect foot position no problem at all you know like so that is that was different you know like and sometimes i said that for igp we need a little bit stupid dogs you know like you know because all of this routine and everything so sometime you know like yeah they can get bored of work yeah i've done this hundred million times yeah yeah so like so but for for protection the the thing it was that i didn't have helper for him so i was also helper for him so until one period that was okay you know like and then when you want more that become you know problem you know like how much i think that is okay for him that that uh it's look okay then i see that it's not okay so right that that was biggest problem that to experience a little different moves yes to open up with a little more aggression of course for you to be on the back yes behind him all those things yes when i change position that i was behind him he was confused you know like oh what are you doing now there you know like most of time you was in front of me now you are behind so you know he was a little bit stuck in there so biggest minus for protection that i didn't have you know all time you know helper for him you know so maybe if i have you know helper so maybe he will be even better you know like in in protection you know so but definitely now like obedience he's best discipline you know like even if i didn't believe you know that it would be like that you know but

1:24:25

yeah it's interesting like i i think it's also like it changes way and depending what like a lot of times um can be different it can be the obedience is good but then the the most of the time not from boredom but maybe just held and being all this like okay i know you want me to come i want you want me to do it fast but that's as fast as i can do it today and tracking can be a big struggle in the beginning but then just because you have so many repetitions eventually tracking gets better when was difficult and and basically it there is really some switching what they were strongest in the young age and how it changes and they get older and you have to modify your how you train and what you do right yeah for with him i didn't see that that it's something changing you know like like like i told you i didn't see any kind of change even if he is now 10 years old almost so are you gonna what's the plan how you gonna do the training to prepare for the company i mean this is what like couple of three months from now yeah in three months so for now he he is at home you know like uh running little bit on treadmill you know like keep him in the condition i think in this age when dog become older the i think most important part not when you finish competition then you say oh in six months i will be i will have next one dot i think it's most important okay okay not to keep him in top four but also not allow dog to go completely dressed yeah yes yes yeah so to to keep him in some form so when it's how it's competition it's coming closer to you know just a little bit rise that form and then stay there you know like i think especially very much like fighting yes you have your training in camp when it's time yes but but until then you have to stay because if you go too far yeah it's it's really hard yeah it's really hard you know to to go back you know so i think for for him now it's most important you know like to stay in some shape you know like not allow him to lose little lot of uh muscle and everything so you know like to keep him in some let's say middle form you know that that is you know my how i think for now yeah that is that will be you know most important yeah so now you also i mean lately you've been almost every weekend somewhere doing seminars and working dogs yes like a lot how does that feel and how how sometimes you ask me about how it's uh generally or how it's with uh training i mean both like like like how how does going places help you to get better in what you do and appreciate and also how do you deal with being every weekend somewhere and not

1:27:57

being at home with the dogs to prepare yes like about that first how it's helping me to be better that from every workshop or seminar however you know like even if i try you know to help people to be better i also learn a lot of things from bad people you know because you know different people they come with something so even some of them you know it's with experience some of them not experienced you know like even from that kind of people you you can you know even small things you can you know take you know like see something that you didn't have idea about something then you see oh look this they are doing something that maybe can help in my training you know some kind of technique or something so so generally that is also good for me because i'm not saying that oh i'm now good in this and i'm stop there i always try to be better and better you know like uh to every keep the door open yes take what you like yes of course and i think uh i also in for helpers and also also for uh people who is uh want to compete or they already compete i always tell them don't be satisfied with yourself you know like even like you said that uh when i watch this obedience when we where we get 96 when i watch video i say oh we got 96 but still can be better you know like even if it's 96 i see some parts that i don't like every time when i finish some helper uh competition like helper when they see videos go on the working dogs i start look watching this video how soon do you watch the videos after immediately immediately immediately when they put yeah like i just you know wait you know like immediately when they go out you know like i start to know watching and you know try to see what can be better you know like even if you do super you know helper work everything was super no i try to you know to find evaluate yes what can be you know even better you know like and almost a lot of time and not sat or this can be better this can be better you know so i push myself to you know every day be better and better that i also say to helpers you know don't be satisfied with yourself push yourself even more and more about the dogs staying at home and and and and and and and everything the life at home versus being on the road so when i have you know chance or opportunity i take you know dog with me even if it's you know like sometimes you know they stay you know couple of hours in car you know like but sometimes you know like when i travel and i then i know place where i go that it's okay then i take my dog with me and you know try to

1:30:48

make some trainings with them also you know sometimes it's good you know new field you know yeah then it's also think about that it's a lot of people around you know like that is also one thing you know like when i train train at home most of time i'm alone in the field you know like and that is also some of experience what dog need to get preparation of yes feel of yeah yeah that is you know like for example because i travel a lot of time in czechia you know like and then most of time on training fields there it's you know 10 15 people 20 people there enough to get the field yes and then especially you know like they say oh this guy is coming on the field he needs competition you know preparation you know so they are cheering they are loud nice it doesn't matter if it's on the tracking or on the obedience protection so the dogs used to be on that kind of you know environment environment and everything you know like so sometimes you know like when i have you know opportunity i take dog with me so to use that people who is on the workshop or seminar you know you know to to change a little bit you know atmosphere and yeah and everything but there is also times when they are staying at home you know like the good thing that is natalia at home you know like and then she takes care about dogs and you know like i said to try to stay in the shape you know especially them keep them yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes especially now when i am you know like i'm out of home you know three weeks you know like and then you know she is doing you know good job that you know that try to to keep especially you know duke that he is you know like old guy you know like and then you know like i like i say before you know he's on treadmill you know like yeah they all need different yes attention different kind of attention right i was it was hard for me to do this to like i i tried it for a little bit when i was traveling a lot to take my dogs with me for that reason but i um after seminar i always felt very empty that is what you know i take the dog to do my dog i always felt even if my dog i didn't allow him to feel it i just never felt that i'm giving what i want yes i was becoming very frustrating and simply because you you just don't have the energy because of your empty that is that is that is thing you know like uh yanni was good in that every time yanni would come and he would bring his dog he would work work work work but he will always find time and he would bring his dog and somehow i don't know if he was

1:33:36

faking it but he always had the this emotion enthusiasm and the right emotions which i felt like i cannot do it and and then eventually i'm like i i i it's better not at home yeah yeah yeah that is that is that is you know also you are right i just wait to finish to say that is things also you know like even when i'm at home you know there is some people that coming you know like on the on the training with lessons yeah lessons and then on the beginning first what i do first finish lessons with them and then i take my dog then i see that oh a lot of time that you don't have any more this does the spark is not part and that also you lose nerves you know like so sometimes that that is even worst you know like like for your own dog yes because yes it's nerves you know like because you spend all this energy for other people and dogs and then yeah then i what i start doing oh first i do with my dog then i start with other people you know like so but yeah you are right but also like when i go back uh after home like after seminar like you say like i need you know minimum one day you know like to recharge little bit this kind of emotion and everything you know like to can train with my dog but that is you know that is also funny story funny story yeah like when you're going around and or when you when you are trainer in your club and everything so you need to find yeah balance let's say you know like because most of time like there is you know like uh we always have fun jokes you know like when you go to the mechanic the car of mechanic guys most of time it's not working yeah you know like even if he is fixing all other cars but his car it's yeah broken you know yeah i always have problems with that and um even i mean i i i get so empty that even that they you there was a time where even like with natalia where we both of our they are both natalias yeah we with my wife you know she used to be like something wrong why are you not talking to me like i i i i i i'm just empty this is like i i i i i i i can't listen i still can't listen but that's that that i'm done and it took some time for her to to get it and that's kind of how i felt with the dog but there is something interesting about being away and i want to see how that is for you i because of how i train i guess or maybe it's not even how i try maybe it's universal thing but when i'm gone and when i come back if my dog is typically giving me 100 percent when i come back he's 120 130 he's like let's fucking go yeah i've been waiting so even though the training sessions are less for me they end up

1:36:49

being super productive because of the level of motivation and excitement that we're back doing it how is it for you sometimes we say sometimes less is more you know like right so even sometimes when i'm at at home you know like you know sometimes you know you i just rest the dogs you know like you know leave them some period you know without nothing you know yeah and then when you go back on the training there is no that like you said like that like you said like let's go let's go let's do something you know like so it's same you know like when you go for the trip you know and then go home you know like so they are like like the charge again you know you know like during the training for for sure dog it's you know like little bit by little bit you know they lose little bit you know they lose little bit you know yes it's like it's on every day you have pizza every day right yes of course you know like so i think it's sometimes it's good thing you know that you know like like like you say you are not at home and then come back and then dog is yeah okay let's go let's do it you know like when it gets tricky is when you're working on something you're trying to solve some problem and it's not done yeah it's and now you have to go for this weekend and this weekend and now the dog is sitting home but it's there is something that needs to be finished and it's not that's a difficult problem but sometimes you know like even if you have let's say problem and it's not done sometimes it's you know we said the the the morning is uh smarter than night you know so sometimes you need to leave you know like to take some time and then you know start again for example a lot of time i have true i have sometimes you know i remember that sometimes leaving the problem okay leave it you know like and revisit in a little while so i remember i remember that first time when that happened with that female when i start you know like work with her so we pass igp1 so we wanted to pass igp2 and we wanted to go in romania with some competition there and i don't know day before you know like trip let's do some obedience sit she she makes stay sit stay okay let's help her do this this and it's not work at all you know right and then now we start to yes pushing more yes and then you know i said okay we will not go even if it's you know like okay even if she not make it it will not fail you know but i said no i don't want to go and they say okay i leave her seven days without seven or ten days without training nothing you know like and then we start again sit pam everything was okay you know even if

1:39:32

that moment i didn't can't solve this you know like like you said even if i push more that it'd be even worse than worse you know like so i said okay we will not do so i remember that we didn't do seven to ten days and then everything was okay and it's all right yeah right it's a it's a crazy thing how with the brain works right i i kind of want to thank you on behalf of the american team because you you will go to the fmbb and you will help our team yes and that's very much appreciated from all of us yeah i always i know that's a you you know it's not easy to do but like being in the sport and being in the communities and regardless of which country and what like helping each other and sharing it's so cool and um yeah i mean what is it like so you're gonna come back home and you pretty much you have to go to italy yeah i will drive to italy you know right but yeah and that makes it even more difficult for your dogs but at the same time you really you're you're going and you're going to help quite a few people yeah and and most of the american team is really relying on you to help us so yeah thank you you're welcome it is really cool i always that must be hard too because um how how this is a whole different level of pressure they all there is always pressure as a helper just as we were talking at your first okay here you are do the long bite yeah yeah now you you're going and you're like okay guys i'm gonna help but you don't know most of the dogs you don't know their training and you may have some ideas what to do but then there is no time for things to change so there is yes there is a lot of different pieces to come together i think that also one good thing with me that i think i really fast can't change myself from adapt to what they want what they want you know like uh you know to even you know when when they contact me and ask uh help from me you know i immediately say okay prepare me some material some video something you know like because when you can really help yes because when you come that's smart yeah yeah when you come you know so close to the competition that okay you are already prepared so you know you just need to you want to stay in the pro yes to stay in the program and just you know help dog to stay focused you know like not to lose training and everything so just you know to to stay on on yeah on that level so i already told them you know like okay guys prepare me that's super whatever you want you know like uh videos material you know speak with me tell me what you work so for sure i will not experiment with

1:42:41

something that you know like uh because that's a whole different level yes yes yes yes yes yes when you think about it they are training they're preparing their qualifying now they're going there and this is the last training sessions yes and those last training sessions are woof yeah yeah yeah yeah it can be you know like like i when i which champion i think it was no it was the fci it was the fci and i go and and we do training and it was the very last training in protection before competition and everything seems to go perfect until i say out and there is no it's not happening he is like there is not happening um it was uh mark sacoccio you know and he was in a very tough place he's yeah you know because it's like what do i do do i do what i normally do to yeah yeah that is what do i do what do we're gonna do now you know and of course i also i'm shaking because i wasn't expecting it so things like this can happen yes of course and you're in a very very very tough place yeah like like i remember also i think fmbb in greece so i was on training with friends from turkey with erdinche and gizem and also come on that field uh from belgija dave with bert yeah they're cool guys yeah really nice guys you know erdinche and gizem and also bert and they was all of them was you know super so we just finished i helped the erdinche with uh and gizem with their dog and we just finished you know protection and then they went back come and i just you know taking my pants you know like helper pants and they they start training but do first half and then because i don't know because i don't know because of his bags and everything they say okay he will do with his dog long attack and then happened disaster it was so badly crash with two of them yeah oh man you know like and then what i was think oh man it's good that they didn't ask me right i don't know if it will it will be happen with me it doesn't matter you know like but that happened with his dog you know like and it was you know like the good thing that he was one free day and then protection that he can you know like a little time yes yeah more time to to kill the dog and then i was thinking oh man what if that happened you know like if because they come you know they say oh you are there can you do also helper work with our dogs and that that happened you know like two days before protection that it's possible you know so there is also you know now i even more thinking about that what you just say you know like also about you are going there to help you know people you know and then i always

1:46:06

you know thinking you know and to be you know safe how much is possible you know like and nothing can happen you know like but there is also some you know like uh good things that you know like we have you know nice time i remember you know like even uh last championship in slovenia i also was with usa team you know with marco sarah uh who was more there you know uh erin you know then that uh uh riley from uh canada so we have you know like really nice time there and and uh you know okay trainings uh joking really good time and then we figure out that what is meaning that when you go on world championships okay it's competition but also that you meet friends from other parts of right world you know like that we are all there together that we have you know super time together you know like you know whatever you know like the other side of the train yes like important side like if you ask me what is more important i think it's pretty equal you know like okay it's competition but still you know like you are there with friends you know like and uh people that think alike and have the same passion yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes you know with bertman i mean i know him from so long like for so long i mean way back from belgium and and the first ever world championship and whatever but there was a time this cool story with with jungle uh i think 2000 2001 i became a a vice champion like knut beat me by one point and or we tied some it was super close but so i go from the states and i have no idea what's up and i'm in well it was in germany and and it's going to where a whole week i haven't done any protection and it starts to kind of bug me i'm like i i have no idea who i have anymore next to me we haven't done like i feel like i see everybody change but i don't have a helper it was just me that was not american team and bert he was busy at the time him and roger were training the japanese teams and they were helping a lot of people and i kind of i saw him at some place i'm like bert can you i i i need some help and i know he was so again he was very busy with everything and somehow he find the time he's like okay let's go let's go in in an hour or meet you or whatever and we do a training and it's go and of course he he didn't know my dog at the time but we had a very good understanding and i felt comfortable with him you know yeah yeah yeah we can vice champion he had like amazing protection work because well who knows if it's because of that but this is another story of how you know you can work with everybody and and you can make

1:49:45

a lot of things happen and yeah yeah you know like when you are helper you know like even in that uh world champpion's beat czechia when i compete with my dog a lot of people you know like can you do help or work with my dog can you do with my dog can you do i was in one moment thinking i come there like like helper not like competitor but still i'm you know feeling good if i can help that's a very hard place to be yes you know like but i'm you know like i really know when you come on that kind of competition that kind of level of course i will try you know to help you know right and then i'm glad if i can help you and you know like whatever you know like it's it's good feeling for me you know like even sometimes it's not easy you know like you need to be focused on your dog and then you know now that's the problem that's a big problem because you you even as you're helping somebody a big part of your brain is like i feel like i need to go out with my dog yes something instead of being here yes but sometimes i think it's more like about us not about dog that we are feeling you know like maybe sometimes dog is don't need at all you know but we want to feel you know like more comfortable you know like oh if i do one more training that i feel better you know that that you can let's say i'm sure that it will happen you know something you know i don't know yeah so the near future we have that that's it with the old boy with duke duke we have the fcii and hopefully you take one of the parts as a helper even if you don't just the the fact that you are one yes the five it's a it's already huge thing and you have a young one that comes from vitusia that come from vitusia you know like so how is he doing how he although that you're gone all the time but he's what do you so what is interesting for me is because you you know like you were quite a few dogs here for the time that you're here you saw the mom you saw his brother you saw some siblings older and everything i would like him to be like some of that dogs that i see that to he be like like them you know like because i see really really nice dogs you know like generally you know like i put on the side training and everything yeah just the role yeah raw material yes so i would like that if he will be like some of them you know like but for now he's you know like you know do puppy things you know like try to be you know to do some stupid things you know like and everything what puppies do you know right and uh so for now you know like i'm you know that was interesting right to to see the like

1:52:55

relatives yes actually not just to see but to have the opportunity to play with them you know like so yeah that is that is that is really really good and then you know like start thinking oh if my dog will be similar like this one so i will know how to let's say handle and what kind of approach to have with him and everything you know like so but i'm you know like for now i have this kind of let's say approach in in training so because he is young i don't do too much things we just play you know like yeah i allow what are they like six seven i think almost seven seven months old so i'm you know like like on the beginning i allow dog to be you know puppy to play so more it's playing more you know like fun things that's me too yeah i used to be on i used to be so like oh well he's a four month old but he can learn this and this and this and and with more time and experience i was like okay yeah he can learn all this but why is that the right age is that like a like if you look at a kid yes yeah you can teach even if the kid has the brain and the intelligence to understand high level mathematics or astrophysics or whatever is it really that time to do it or is it better to wait exactly like a like like like i always give these examples of the parents that exactly there is the kid that's really good at tennis and it's like oh because you're really good at tennis we're gonna sign you up and it's gonna be tennis tennis tennis tennis tennis exactly until the kid is 16 years old and he says i'm done i'm done with that in in period when he needs to show his full potential right 18 90 20 years old then okay it's not kids anymore but in that period they they need to start showing their full potential they are all in that moment they are burned totally you know like and that is what i saw also in the in the dog trainings especially with malice you know like because when you have puppy of mali even if they are three or four months old they are you know like compact you know like and then you can start thinking that oh i can do even more they are ready you know like but they are physically ready maybe but mentally yeah they are puppies you know like and then it's you know a lot of trainers you know like just you know want to rush with something you know like and then put a lot of pressure pressure pressure and then you can see you know like they also put on me a lot of pressure with duke for example you know like because in one moment i see really fast that he needs more time you know that it's not like oh i will can do like much much earlier so i saw and realized that he needs more time to

1:56:02

understand some things and then people around me start oh why you didn't did you do something with him i said no nothing you know did you pass bj i say no why he's not ready you know like i see that if i push him more for sure i will break him you know like so i give him more time you know like and then well why you don't do this why you don't do this why you don't do this why you don't make bh why you don't make igp1 why you don't start competitions i say when he will be ready he will compete you know like and uh that was also what how you say you know with with now parents with kids you know like they are you know like i don't know three or four years old okay let's do math let's do study languages let's do do some music school that and kids forgot to be kids you know like and i think it's same with with with dogs with puppies you know like we need to allow them to be puppies you know that's where i am at this point yes you know like and there is different i mean there is again just like different people and like you know when i with with jungle he was exceptional in his own way and if i was you know like if i was who i am today who the hell knows what would it look like but he was two and a half when he was vice champion he was champion of the marinois in the states he was champion of all breeds he was champion of the german shepherd because then they allowed us to be and he became champion uh vice champion of the world at two and a half or maybe a little over yeah yeah definitely before three years old there is starzan we just got igp too yeah yeah like and he wasn't anything fancy yeah and he's what he's close to he's actually a little bit older than than him but but you cannot you we should never compare yeah of course you know like when two with with duke i passed bh when he was four and half almost five years old you know i just passed bh you know because you know okay for sure he was ready before but i didn't want you know like i just say okay until he was yeah what he was ready then i will pass you know bh one two three and then we will go for yeah world championships you know but you know it's every dog it's different story you know like but generally i think that dogs need you know to give them time you know especially on the when they are puppies you know like more it's a it's a give and take like you cannot like if you take it very slow you know eventually the dog is five years old and you're like oh oh i missed the boat yes that or you push it too soon of course you know like that the good thing youtube doesn't help you because you see this

1:59:08

of course that is six months old dogs doing incredible things that that and then you're like where did they go oh yes exactly that you know because people come ah did you see on youtube that dog one years old you know running six blinds dumbbells everything you know like i said okay when was that video i don't know one year before so where is that dog now nowhere you know like most of them it's nowhere because it's you know like like again like with with kids you know there is a lot of talented kids in tennis for example but then parents push them a lot because for example in serbia because you know novak djokovic now now it's like yeah you we just need you know to sell everything to put all money on your private lessons and then you will become new novak jokovic yeah but novak jokovic is only one yes and he's special he's very special but from how much kids you know like exactly suffer because of that yeah absolutely you know they probably had real opportunities to be as good as him maybe yeah but they need a different approach for example yes right of course of course you know so you know like but that's what you say you know like that the good thing with me and and duke that he is you know like dog like that that that even with let's say now 10 years old that he can compete it's insane but you look this so let's say he was five five and something let's say i say okay he's ready to we can start competitions and then then covet come and then yeah and then that was uh and then in europe i think we lose two years of any kind of competitions of course so if you have dog who is not capable to handle all of this so you just prepare dog then covet come six seven years old dog maybe one competition and done the thank god that he is you know was you know like dog like that that it's in good shape and healthy healthy yeah exactly this is healthy and then he can give me you know two or three years of competitions you know like you know as a breeder it's really i start to the the older we get and the more experience i get with breeding and i have plenty of experience i mean jesus christ i have two two females with puppies right now one has nine one has seven that are two days old at the same time right and i've been doing it for 40 years but having this um like a a different appreciation of longevity of how long the dog has a working life you know it's different when they can so like my very first mali she she was 17 or close to 18 years old and she ended up i know what happened at the time she did some a hurdle and back then it was the wooden

2:02:30

yeah yeah hard jump like you don't mess around and i know this one time she really hit it hard with the back leg ended up breaking a little bond chip that was staying in between and kept running kind of you know yeah rubbing and and messing the joint but i mean this is very early 90s and and i'm like okay i don't know what to do and and you know you do some x-rays you do some things but you don't see it until eventually we did surgery and and they took it out by the time they took it out it wasn't even because when it broke of course some sharp edges whatever by the time they took that bone out it was like a like a real circle like there is no sharp edges just because of all the the things and but anyway the the longevity as a breeder is something that really if if all breeders including myself we start to take on their consideration and really appreciate it along with all the other traits i think it's super cool because we can start making dogs because the older they get the more they know yeah no question about yes but then it's like being healthy or not that's game changer yes exactly and and and now we have so much the the like the the medical side of things and the knowledge of selection and stuff like emphasizing on somebody like your dog it's like okay he's 10 years old and he is jumping a frames and he's making fast recalls and he's healthy that is something to be taken under consideration like very seriously and um because you know you can you can have this dog for a very brief moment in time and by the time they are six you know that that's about it and the moment they are seven yes they can participate at the world championship but that's what they're doing they're participating there no competition no more simply because they don't have the body anymore yes exactly to do it yeah it's very interesting like he did this kind of and in igp as far as i can keep track and i'm not that good at statistics i'm so bad actually in that but the the oldest dogs that i know that have won there they've been about eight years old and they're two or three you know and i think if uh if we all start to focus more when we breathe and appreciate longevity health it's not a just like with people it doesn't matter if you're 90 years old if you need the diapers and you're not functional yeah then you're out of the game yeah exactly the cool thing is to be 90 but to be able to walk and take care of yourself and the same thing with the dog and yes the environment yes the the nurture you know how they feed what the but the genetics are huge

2:06:26

they play very big importance of course and if we pay attention to that even even to the point that let's say well that dog is not that great maybe has a shallow bite maybe has whatever but he's fucking 10 years old and he's still going strong yeah we can we we should not leave that alone that's something that should grab our attention yes of course so now that training is big before you know that memorial miloš kovac i was uh in poland with marko koskesal and he was even if he know my dog you know from before like he was so you know surprised even in you know nine and something and still you know like it's impressive yes there's no question that energy and everything and then he's going around telling people oh you know this dog is almost you know 10 years old and still you know like that kind of energy and everything you know like that he's not losing at all you know yeah and that that is thing you know like i remember it in one moment you ask oh when you will stop i say probably he will tell me you know like when i see that talking with you all that yeah like you know like like no no it's it's it's normal question you gotta let it be a little bit it's it's it's normal question you know like when you have dog you know like even over the eight you know like it's normal question that you can say oh when you plan to stop you know like but with him it's you know like you know like i don't know you know like but okay for sure i have planned you know after this you know uh competition in czechia you know to to retire him you know like and he can enjoy you know like even if he is enjoying now you know like right but i think you know like he is really enjoying training you know but that's the thing this this is also very important because what happens typically in a sport dog from a puppy we train very hard we do all sorts of things then two years old then three years old then five years old and we're going strong we're really and then we start to see the the body or injuries and whatever and then we leave them all of a sudden we just kind of leave them because we know they're not competitive anymore and and that becomes very hard for this dog that is eight years old that they still want to do of course you know right and this kind of dogs assuming they're healthy they can also they can help any of the young trainers or helpers or like there is so much value of older healthy dog that can yeah you know i i cannot wait to see we will see i cannot wait i also you know like just you know to stay healthy until that and everything you know so

2:09:33

well man super conversation yeah thank you for thank you for this coming and and anytime i'm in europe and you're around i i'm like let's walk my dog and so that is one more thing that appreciate it there is one when you are europe what the one thing what you need to do do you need to come in belgrade in serbia that you never be there you know like so invitation is open always you know i know last time was very very close very close it was so close and i don't know what happened that i i didn't come because me and vency yeah yeah you have yeah i mean we were coming yeah i mean it was in last moment you change plans you know and i don't know exactly what happened that i changed my plan but no i i definitely there is two places that i really like i for whatever reason as weird as it is i never been to russia and i it has to happen and and coming to belgrade it's like it has to happen there is no question like i i because i i mean it's balcani i like the culture like the the food the music the just you know i feel kind of home but i've never been there yeah yeah that's coming yeah all right man okay good one good one you're welcome thank you so so böyle Thank you.