E124: 나쁜 개! 원치 않는 반려견 행동 다루기

Where I live in particular here in Guatemala, people often get large working breed dogs, like German Shepherds are very popular, because they want to feel safe. So they basically want a pet dog who looks a little scary. So just to be sure that the burglar will rob the neighbor's house rather than their house. But then they also want that dog to be a great family dog and to be good with their small children. So I often end up recommending a combination of management to just keep the unwanted behavior from happening and more exercise and stimulation. So that's like things like allowing the dog to sniff more on a walk, feeding out of Kongs, learning to play with a dog and doing a little bit of that every day. So there's lots of little puzzle pieces to that. Especially where I am, the other source of unwanted behavior that I'm seeing a lot comes up in former street dogs. So I have clients who've adopted a dog off the street. They just kept seeing that dog around their neighborhood and it seemed like a sweet dog. So they caught it and they kept it. The challenge with this is that these dogs have grown up with a lot of freedom. And they've never been confined to a room or confined by a leash. And they have no idea how to be a pet dog. So when they're being turned into a pet dog, they often react to confinement by showing separation anxiety or excessive barking, destructive behaviors. And unleashed walks, there's often all kinds of flavors of leash aggression that comes up. In that case, that's also not really an impulse control issue, I would say. It's just a dog who got put into a situation that was overwhelming. So what I tend to do here is I try to help the owner see how hard these seemingly simple pet dog skills actually are. And then we start very easy. So, for example, we practice walking on a leash in the most boring environment rather than going right into the city center. And then once we're in a place where the leash aggression doesn't show up, we can reward and practice the kind of behavior we actually want the dog to display on a leash. And then gradually we'll go to more exciting places. Tanya, do you want to weigh in? Oh, yeah, totally. So when we talk about unwanted behaviors, we're usually referring to the point of view of the human, right? That's what also Chrissy is saying. Like, okay, now we took this dog and we want that dog to be a pet dog. So a person of a family deciding that X, Y, and Z behaviors don't work for them, that's usually where we see a lot of those unwanted behaviors.

When you're not talking about really more problematic kinds of aggression or fearfulness, et cetera, it takes a balance, right? So that means people and dogs are no longer living in harmony. So sometimes some things need to change. So maybe now the dog is chewing the walls of the house. That's not going to work for the family, right? But maybe the dog also have a list of unwanted behaviors on their humans. My humans leave me alone eight hours a day. That shows my complaint list. So when I hear about how to address unwanted behaviors, I usually hear people talking about four different focus points. And Chrissy talked about the fourth one that I usually think of. One is more training, as you suggested. So impulse control, like you said. Distraction, proofing that behavior. Or the famous dear eyes, the differential reinforcement of incompatible behavior that serves a similar function. The point two that Chrissy also said is management. So that goes along with training. So you're preventing a behavior from happening in the first place. Therefore, you're also preventing its training. If it is a behavior that gets to be self-reinforced. So you're eliminating the maintenance of that problem behavior with management. The third focus point that I usually hear people talking about too is behavior suppression. So a lot of people would talk about punishment. And of course, there are many question marks that can be raised about that. So if a behavior doesn't occur in a vacuum, as we know, it has a list of antecedents and motivation operations. Then what fuels that gap if you're just suppressing? So that's something that we have to think about. The number four is what Chrissy said a lot. The needs of a dog. And also, brilliant Sarah's trimming with the whole picture. And it talks a lot about that. So sometimes, not always, the answer to a problem of a problem behavior might lie on the emotional, the physical, maybe the chemical, or the social need of a dog being met. So yeah, that's not a simple topic. Right. So it's not just about training. Right. Right. Chelsea? So first, I just wanted to reiterate that dogs aren't ever inherently bad dogs. They aren't out to get us. And they're not vindictive. And even if they are, it's not helpful to think of them that way. Even if they frustrate us. Fundamentally, dogs do what works for them to fulfill some need that they have that's not being fulfilled. And though it's not always easier for us to decode, it's usually not very complex on their end. And of course, we want to teach dogs how to make good decisions whenever possible.

But when we talk about impulse control, I think it's really important to remember that an impulse behavior is not a deliberate action or even a conscious decision. It's an unconscious response to some sort of stimulus, like some condition in the environment or some state that they're feeling. So when we work through impulse control in a sense of distraction training exercises, we're teaching very specific things. And when we do that in different contexts, we help generalize responses to distractions. And the distractions can become the cues to the behaviors that we want. So that's how we would use impulse control training to help manage unwanted behaviors by working through these distractions in these scenarios. But as we give them the more opportunities to practice this, they develop this repertoire of more desirable behaviors. They develop a history of behaving the way that is desirable to us. And even if it is provoking big feelings for them. And I'm a huge advocate of proactive training and of doing this deliberately. But I don't think it's realistic to capture every possible situation that will incite an impulsive response with a training plan. So I think what ends up being important with our ability to cope with our dog's range of behaviors, and that goes back to what Chrissy and Tanya were saying, it's about management. And it's also about doing the training to develop our relevance or importance in the dog's world so that we stay on their radar when we do need to get their attention in the situation. And if we built this history of being relevant to the dog and being important to them, then they listen to us more. So it sounds like everybody's kind of in agreement that, you know, it's really about more than just impulse control work. And, you know, kind of this idea of management is super important. And, you know, kind of when you think about the other things that come up a lot, right, when we're talking about unwanted behaviors, at least in the positive reinforcement world, it seems like the word arousal is like becoming this huge buzzword. And people are just like, well, he's over aroused. You have to manage his arousal better. You have to manage his frustration better, right? So maybe you guys could talk a little bit about how you differentiate impulse control and arousal levels and kind of pull those things apart a little bit. Or even just kind of how you talk about them, either with clients or, you know, other dog trainers. And how much of a role do you feel that arousal plays in unwanted behaviors, or at least the ones that you tend to see in dogs?

Tanya, do you want to start us off this time? Oh, boy. The word arousal and impulse control. There's so much talk about it, right, nowadays. And, of course, for good reason. We see dogs doing stuff and we try to figure out what is happening. So the word arousal does come up a lot when talking about unwanted behaviors. Probably more so for behaviors that look like, I don't know, exuberant, big, loud, frenetic, not precise. So when we imagine an animal that is over aroused, that usually means, in my circle, a dog that lost control somehow. Therefore, one needs to train in pulse control. That kind of like to tame the beast, so to speak. That's usually what people think. So those two works come together in most conversations I hear, arousal and impulse control. But usually I tend to think more that if those things are coming up, there's an issue of anxiety. So that's what I have to address. So arousal, usually we talk about optimal arousal level. And when we talk about those, it's more in the dog sport world. At least that's when I hear most. For example, the agility dog is star line, is clear-headed, and, oh, boy, he wants it. Now, the over aroused dog is that dog that has no longer mental capacity at that time to perform that behavior with its optimum latency, maybe the speed, accuracy, precision. And the under aroused dog, a dog that does not want, at least that's how I see it. So we talk about regulating one's arousal. We tend to think, oh, yeah, the dog is over aroused. So I think about three things, kind of the environment, controlling the arousal. So is that dog to close to a trigger? Does that dog need more acclimation? Or another one is the inner state, so that we have no access to, right? But we can assume some things based on the outside behavior. So the connections that the dog has to that space, for example. So you see, I don't know, like, as we were chatting in the Facebook group some time ago about not playing fetch inside the living room, right? So that connection of playing a arousing game inside a space that usually we expect something not arousing definitely creates different connections, right? So the inner state of that animal is a little different when in that space. Also genetics, I think, can we regulate that, though? So have a play in how aroused, how fast an animal goes into and out of that state. So all that in relation to arousal. But now when we talk about impulse control, I think more about social etiquette. So it's a little bit the opposite mindset. So when we're trying to, like in quotes, tame something we don't like, we tend to blame a lot of the dog, right?

So even the word tame sounds so bad. So we're trying to make it small, trying to reduce, trying to, you know, like make it graspable. So something that is not acceptable socially. Dog jumps on people, for example. We work on impulse control, in quotes. We try to minimize that. We work on distraction proofing. Is that dog too close to the person? Is the person making eye contact? Is the person squeaking, hi, puppy? So the main idea that I see around me when talking about impulse control is that we need to tame an animal that wants something too much. But, hey, we can't create frustration with that. When you talk about that kind of state, we have to be very, very careful. So imagine an artist that wants to create, but can't. Her hands are tied. That's how you create some frustration right there. So what are the ethical implications of that, of doing that, of trying to, in quotes, tame something? So I rather think about channel the inner awesomeness into something that can be allowed to both. So I want to make sure that I can create something socially acceptable. Definitely not something that will create problems to society or the individual or the family. But always with a way of giving that dog access to what he needs. So the way I go about teaching in post-control or whatever that is, is actually to basically build a huge reinforcement history on behaviors that are very easy to do. They're fluent. For example, sit, stand, eye contact, match, whatever, you name it, right? And that option was previously and heavily reinforced, but also recently reinforced. So it is very clear in the dog's repertoire. And you make so much of that, that we do eliminate unwanted behavior because the other options are so more interesting. They are so much more relevant. So we don't need to tame the beast. We don't need to think on those terms. We can think about channeling inner awesomeness. That's what I am all for. That's what my logo also in my business is. It's a dog being shoot out of a cannon. Meaning, oh my God, let's channel. I don't want to reduce you. I want to understand your awesomeness and I want to have appropriate outlets for that. So it sounds like, you know, kind of what you're saying is you want to take that arousal or that big emotion, whatever it is, and kind of channel it into something that's more socially acceptable, which is, you know, typically what people consider impulse control to really be, right? Is that an accurate understanding? Absolutely. Yeah. Awesome. And it is like a very hot topic right now, right? Because people are talking, okay, how we do about doing that?

Are we doing negative punishment? Are we, you know, doing it's your choice like games? Are we instead doing a way that doesn't cause frustration? Are we, are we doing a distraction as a cue for a known behavior, as I'm suggesting? So there are lots of ways of going about, and that would depend on the individual in front of you, right? If the family can't do something or like, it really ties down to what that family needs and what that dog specifically needs. So we can mix and match possible versions of how to achieve that. Chrissy, do you have anything to add? First of all, I really, really like that metaphor of channeling the inner awesomeness of the dog. I'll have to remember that and use that when I talk about this. Tanya already made some really good points. So maybe I'll focus on how I, how I talk about it when I'm trying to explain to a client what's going on with their dog. So in my case with my clients, I usually, the dogs who have arousal issues are usually more aroused than the client would like them to be. And that then leads to a lack of impulse control and results maybe in unwanted behaviors. When I want to explain the relationship between arousal and impulse control, I usually, I talk about things like hormone levels. So I point out that the higher the adrenaline levels get, the harder it is for the dog to stay in a thinking state of mind. Dogs and people alike, we need to stay in our thinking state of mind in order to be able to control our impulses. And if your dog is very excited for whatever reason, can be positive or can be negative reasons, it gets really hard for him to listen to you or to remain calm and quiet. I also use human analogies for this. So like when you're on a roller coaster, you probably couldn't solve a simple math problem. And you like being on that roller coaster, but you're so excited that your brain just doesn't work the way it normally would normally work. And something similar happens when you're scared. So you're nervous, your heart starts pounding, you see monsters in every shadow. You're highly aroused, but in a bad way in this case. And if that's how you felt as you are walking down a dark alleyway and I asked you to remember the pin code of your bank card, you might not be able to remember it. Even though you've put that code into the ATM machine a hundred of times. That's how I try to help people see the relationship between the dog's state of mind and their ability to actually do what you want or to just remain calm and quiet in a certain situation.

I like that. I know the analogy and I'm not sure where I picked this up because it's not my concept. I want to say maybe from Deb Jones, but I can't guarantee that it was originally hers. Kind of the idea of, you know, if you answer the door and there's a cop standing there and they tell you there's been an accident, like that you're not going to be able to remember the relevant details of the rest of your life. You know what I mean? Like you're just not going to be able to do a complex math problem. You're not going to be able to kind of answer detailed questions about what somebody was wearing or anything because you're panicking your head. Right. On the other side, if somebody, you know, rings your doorbell and says, hey, you just won the lottery. You're going to get so amped up in a totally different direction, but same result. You probably can't think. Yeah, totally. Chelsea, do you have anything you want to kind of add to that? Sure. Kind of building on what you're saying there, I like looking at arousal as information. I mean, we're getting a lot better at this in the sport world, at being able to read our dogs and their ability to be able to undertake a task that we're asking them and noticing the subtle kind of tells that they have that the behavioral expression of, you know, what's going on in their heads. Because the ability for us to see this and for us to be able to help our clients see this will really help create more success. You know, it helps decide whether this is a situation where we're going to let a dog make a decision here or when it's clearly not a situation where the dog is going to be able to make a decision and we need to step in and get them out of the environment or change something in the environment to kind of help them be successful. Uh-huh. Kind of control the decision for them. Yeah. Yeah. But it becomes like the cue for the handler. It becomes a cue for the trainer to make that decision for themselves, for what direction is the session going to go right now? What does the dog need? Mm-hmm. I think that's important to kind of think about, right? That it's not a one-way street. It's not just us looking at and saying, hey, this is unwanted behavior, so I need to change something about the dog. But maybe, you know, we need to look at it, take it as feedback, and say, okay, maybe I need to change something about my setup or my actions. Or expectations. Right. Right. So I really like that. I think, you know, whenever positive reinforcement trainers start talking about eliminating behaviors,

we kind of get into the realm of incompatible behaviors pretty quickly. And I know it came up earlier in the conversation. So I wanted to drill into that a little bit, kind of circle back to that. You know, is teaching an incompatible behavior often the answer? I originally was going to say always, but it sounds like we've already kind of talked about some really smart other solutions. Can you guys just kind of run through, I guess, what some of the other options are that are out there for unwanted behaviors, you know, while still sticking in that positive reinforcement methodology or mindset? Tanya, you want to start us off again? Let me just give a quick example. So the listeners, I don't know, dog jumps on people that enter the house. Sometimes an incompatible behavior for jumping is lying down. So dog cannot sit or lie down at the same time as jumping. So that's the excludant, right? That's what we understand as incompatible. If jumping is socially not acceptable, we ask the dog to lie down instead. In fact, that's a very, very common way of decreasing jumping as we talked. But you asked about, like, teaching an incompatible behavior, if it's always the answer. I don't think so. It's always, always the answer. It's a good way. But you need to consider what's the function of that problem behavior. What was the function in the first place? If the dog wanted to greet the person and lick the person's face, can you convince the dog to get a cookie instead? Maybe. Now, it depends on the dog, right? Is it equally fulfilling for the dog? And for a lot of dogs, probably not, unless the dog cares more about the food than being social. If you consider the dogs, most of them are somehow socially deprived. So, I don't know, as for myself, I remember doing tons of mat work with my very sociable codon retriever. So she would not jump. When all the stars aligned and all knobs of the controllable parameters were correct, she would stay in her mat while eating, like, an, I don't know, an emu femur bone, right? But you could see high levels of frustration in her. So sometimes you have to be careful about that, about just doing NDRI. So fast forward a few years. Yeah, even, like, now at this age, age did not diminish her desire to greet people. I had two babies, lots of nanny care and visitors. So without too much effort, now she no longer jumps on people. We had tons of visitors in the house now. In fact, she looks somehow a normal dog. So I open the door, she greets the person coming, gets her toy in her mouth, moves her body a lot. So circle, circle, circle the person. Would I recommend ditching my work? No.

But I have my eyes very open to the needs of my dog. So meeting people is so important, as we're suggesting, right? So just thinking, just the DRI is not the solution. You have to think about the whole picture. And also, like, we asked about what other options. I think definitely making different associations. So when talking about behavior problems, I think a lot about classical conditioning as well. I use a ton of desensitization and counter conditioning to work on behavior problems. So those are the things I usually tackle on. So I like that you mentioned, you know, what is the function of behavior? What is the dog getting out of it, right? Because I think that's super important to kind of think through if you're creating a plan and deciding, okay, should I teach incompatible behavior? Should I go with a different option? Chrissy, do you want to kind of pick it up from there? So I really like Tanya's example. So let me add a different example to that to show another component that can often be important to add to alternative or incompatible behaviors. Yeah. So while I do teach and try and teach a lot of alternative behaviors or incompatible behaviors, management is also something I integrate a lot. For example, right now I'm working with a client whose dog will redirect her aggression towards the client. It's a leash aggression case. The dog gets triggered by motorcycles and bikes, but she's being walked on a leash. So she can't get to the bike, but all the feelings she's feeling, they have to go somewhere. So she's like a pressure cooker and she ends up attacking the owner instead. That owner lives in an apartment and she doesn't have a yard. She doesn't have access to her car at all times. So she needs to walk that dog in public in her neighborhood. There's just no way around it, right? And rehoming is not an option for her. She loves that dog. So on the one hand, we are working on looking at bikes and back at the owner instead of lunging and biting. That would be the incompatible behavior component. But at the same time, I'm also putting management and safety strategies in place. So outside of training sessions, the dog is being walked in a muzzle at all times. And I've taught the owner how to safely restrain her if she unexpectedly runs into a motorcycle or a bike. So she has learned how to secure the dog in a way that will make it impossible for the dog to get loose and also impossible for her to get bitten. So incompatible behaviors are usually an element of working with unwanted behaviors for me.

But they are rarely the only element because in real life, a lot of the time we can't avoid the triggers at all times. So we need a way to deal with them while the dog is still learning that unwanted behavior. So I like that. So so far we've gotten, you know, we talked a little bit about training alternative behavior, classical conditioning, desensitization, just looking again at our management options. Chelsea, do you have anything to add to that? Sure. I mean, I think we tend to emphasize the incompatible piece because it's usually the element of do in the instruction, right? This is what you're going to do. And like, that's what we often, you know, get attracted to and hung up on. But like, like Tanya and Chrissy were saying, it's, it's, we always have to consider the bigger picture. And that's super important arousal piece. And that needs to be part of the equation in our decisions and what we're going to have as expectations and also assessing what the dog actually needs from us. So if it's as simple as if being still is very, very hard for this dog in this moment, having a solution that involves a dog moving around is actually going to be a lot more successful than, you know, fighting them to be still. Sometimes even just changing a set of conditions can make a big difference as well. Like going back to the on leash kind of greeting example, approaching from the side can have a pretty positive effect versus approaching head on. And something as simple as that can do a lot to impact the behavior without, or, you know, stillness in the sit and a lot of control. So I think, I think you kind of mentioned in there, you know, if being still is hard, having an option that allows the dog to move is super important. And I think that's, that's probably something a lot of people don't think about, especially in the pet dog world. Just the idea of, okay, how does the dog naturally channel this behavior? And can we pick something that's incompatible, but still kind of allows them to do the thing that feels right for them in the moment. And I really like that. I think that that's kind of an important thing to think about. That's probably often overlooked. So thanks for that. Let's say you've got a client that's consistent with a client with a dog, the client themselves isn't the problem, but a client with a dog is consistently exhibiting an unwanted behavior. You know, you explain your typical go-to solution. Let's say the client is a good client. They listen well, they really give your plan, you know, their best try. The problem just isn't getting better. It doesn't matter.

Like they've been working on it for a while. You feel pretty confident. They're actually doing the things you told them to do. Or maybe it's even one of your own dogs, right? Maybe they're just doing something super obnoxious. You put a training plan in place. How do you decide how long to try one option before deciding that method just won't work for that dog or won't work for that dog and handler combo? And that it's time to maybe, you know, consider some other training options. Chelsea, do you want to start this time? Sure. I mean, this kind of feeds back to what we were saying before. If it's the go-to solution is not really compatible with the dog in front of you, then I'm pretty quick to drop it. And I think these are the kinds of things you can see pretty quickly because we should always be looking at the cause and effect of our training decisions. And if something is working, you should be seeing an increase towards the behaviors that we want. And if what you're seeing is the opposite, like if you're seeing like a degradation of a sit-stay during a greeting and the dog keeps getting up and getting up or even more subtly is slower to sit when you cue them, that might not be the right or the most sustainable solutions to that. And it's also important to consider, like if the dog has mixed feelings about what we're asking and what we're recommending to be done. Those are the kind of things we want to pick up on right away before we send people kind of on their way with like a training plan. We need to be looking for these like more subtle signs of frustration and stress. And I think often those are there pretty quickly and that can help mold our direction for that client. When it comes to actual management, I really expect things to be effective pretty quickly. Like we should have management solutions to improve the situation that are going to work off the bat. And I think that's, you know, our job when we're working with others to empower them to be able to stop the behaviors in front of them that, you know, they're not, they're making them unhappy. When I see this kind of thing, we really like, again, we need to be thinking about the big picture. Or, and what's the big picture for the person and the dog? Like what do we functionally need out of the dog in this situation? How is what we're asking affecting the dog? Are we being fair about, you know, bringing them into this environment? Is what we're asking the client to do realistic for them to sustain? So you mentioned in there that management should happen pretty quickly.

And the thing that kind of jumped into my head is right. If you don't want them jumping on your guests at the door and your management solution is have them in a crate before you open the door. Well, guess what? That should, that should happen pretty much a hundred percent of the time immediately off the bat. It should fix the problem. Right? So, yeah. So I think that that's a good point to kind of keep in mind that there probably are some quick management fixes, even if the training is going to take a little bit. And then, you know, we should see constant progress from there. Chrissy, do you, do you want to pick it up from there? I agree that management should work right off the bat and a hundred percent of the time if implemented correctly. Training, on the other hand, of course, that takes a little longer, right? Still, I, so I usually tell my clients that if they spend a few minutes on whatever homework I gave them every day, they should see an improvement within the first week. So I, for the most part, I do weekly private lesson packages. Mm-hmm. So I tell them that there should be a visible change in between two sessions. In between two sessions. And if there isn't, we'll change something in the next session and reassess. Because I think being effective matters. And while we probably won't resolve a serious behavior problem in just a week's time, if the strategy is working, we should see the first changes soon. And the owner needs to know that as well because that will help them stay motivated and actually follow through on their homework. Mm-hmm. I like that. Both the, the point about being effective matters, because I know, I'm sure everybody on this call knows, that, you know, that's a huge component of the PPP program from Denise's perspective. Really making sure that positive trainers are considering what is effective and not just, you know, what maybe is the most interesting solution from their own perspective. And also that you kind of thought about the client mindset of keeping them motivated by seeing change from week to week. And, you know, hopefully the next week you're able to then look at their progress and say, oh, look at how far you've come. You know, kind of keeping them in the game. Which I think is also super important as a, as a people trainer. Yeah. Yeah. Tanya, do you, do you have anything to add? Yeah. Yeah. Well, what Chelsea and Christine said is pretty awesome. I love what they said. I just want to point out one last thing, which is I, I deal a lot with behavior cases like aggression or extreme fearfulness, et cetera.

So I just want to mention that if there is no progress and the training, you believe that the training plan is robust and you adjusted your training plan to that family and to that dog. So all of those things are met and they're still not getting there. So I think we also need to consider referring them to a vet behaviorist and considering if medication support is a thing for that dog. So I just wanted to mention that option because sometimes if, you know, the behavior problem we're talking about is a little more serious, then we also need to expand our solutions and think a little outside the box too. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And, you know, we've had Jennifer Summerfield on before and she said, you know, that often people kind of consider medicine a last resort and that that's really the wrong way to look at it. That often if you get medicine on board sooner, you can make more progress more quickly and then everybody's happier sooner. I'm really glad that you brought that up. And we need to change things fast, right? If something's not working and you immediately notice that, change it. Change it fast because behavior change should be fast. Otherwise, if it's not like a serious thing. Yeah. So I think at least in the pet world, you know, behavior problems are often most common when a client maybe gets a higher energy dog than they bargained for, right? So maybe it wasn't exactly the right fit. But, you know, we kind of mentioned the idea of enrichment and other lifestyle changes earlier. Things that, you know, maybe aren't necessarily directly related to the problem behavior itself. And I want to talk a little bit more about kind of how those things factor in. Chelsea, I know you have a class specifically on dealing with high energy dog clients. So can you start us off? Sure. I mean, this is such a common source of frustration among, you know, that subset of the dog only public. And I think as dog trainers that we see a higher proportion of these dogs than the entire dog population because, you know, want, need the most help. And I have a lot of empathy for people who are frustrated and who are showing up on a trainer's door looking for, you know, better ways of dealing with their dog. So I think the first thing is to note here is that there's going to be some amount of compromise and expectations on both sides. The people are going to need to step up to provide outlets for the dog. And the dog is also going to have to learn to adapt to maybe a bit of a quieter life than, you know, he was born to live. Mm-hmm.

So addressing their issues is going to be tackled by identifying the top priority needs for the dog and the person. Like, does the dog clearly need to move more? Then we need to make more opportunities for that dog to move. If the dog is frustrated and getting into things in the house, then we need to design activities that fulfill and soothe the need to find and to hunt. And we need to balance physical activity with mental activity because if we use exercise alone, we're going to end up with a very fit dog who still has a lot of needs unfulfilled. So we're going to build a marathon runner. Oh, yeah. People do that, right? Like, they just, you know, they get in the habit of exhausting their dog in some way. And their dog, like, the amount of time they have to exercise their dog to be tired just gets longer and longer and longer. Right. So really, I recommend that any physical exercise has a deliberate planned mental exercise component. So that Saturday morning trail run, 10 to 15 minutes in the parking lot before and after, sniffing around on leash where they're not just, you know, in pure cardio mode where they can explore a little bit. It doesn't have to be a long time, but it's something. Or if they're playing with a floor pole or fetch in the backyard, add a little bit of a training game in. Like, you're out there playing with a dog anyways. Have them use their brain a little bit. Or if the dog's running around in the backyard with the kids, add a little treasure hunt where the kids hide the foodstuff toy or make a kibble trail in the grass where the dog has to use their mind and their nose and their brain. Just to enrich, you know, the exercise that you're doing anyway with them. On the other side of things, if the human needs quiet time at night, then we need to help them create a routine and a set of habits and a structure in their home that satisfied this need of the human side. For example, you gate the dog in a TV room with a foodstuff toy, like a stuffed Kong. This could solve a situation where otherwise the dog is pacing around and getting into the garbage after dinner. But the reality is that both sides need to adapt to each other to be successful. Yeah, I love the kids make a kibble trail idea. I haven't heard that one before, and that seems so brilliant. I mean, if you have a family with kids, I mean, what better way to get the kids interacting with the dog in a positive way and satisfying everybody's needs at the same time? That's so cool. Chrissy, do you want to kind of pick it up there? So I also see a lot of that.

As Chelsea said, I think as dog trainers, we see lots of frustrated clients who ended up with a higher energy dog than they thought they were getting. Personally, I really like Sarah Strömming's way of breaking the needs of a dog down into four components. She calls those the four steps to behavioral wellness, which is exercise, enrichment, nutrition, and communication. I think that's a great way of framing it and talking about it in that way can make the needs of a high energy dog more easily relatable to pet dog clients. I also like Chelsea's point about the need to compromise on both sides. So maybe that dog would love to be a sports dog, but he won't be a sports dog. Still, there are ways to give them a little more exercise, a little more mental stimulation. And maybe the owner was looking for a couch potato dog and, well, didn't end up with a couch potato dog. But there are ways for that dog to learn to relax at night while the owner is watching TV. And I think one of the most important parts here when working with clients who are struggling with a very high energy dog is to help the client really understand and empathize with what their dog actually needs and how his maybe unmet needs are related to unwanted behaviors. Because when the owner understands and can actually relate to what's going on inside of the dog and how the dog may be feeling in this situation, they are much more willing to try and find ways to meet those needs. And once we are at that point, there's usually lots of things we can do and come up with from feeding out of food toys rather than out of a bowl to hiring a dog walker or just taking the dog with you on your weekly jog. Lots of little things. And once the owner is able to understand and sympathize with their dog, they are much more willing to actually make these small changes that can end up making a big difference in both their life qualities. And I will try, I know we've had Sarah on the podcast before specifically to talk about the four steps to behavioral law. So I will try and figure out which episode that was. I think it was episode two. I think it was super, super early on in the podcast. So I will try and link to that. I'll double check that episode. And then I will link to that in the show notes if anybody wants to go back and hear more from Sarah on that specific topic. Tanya, do you want to talk to this for a minute? Yeah, that's one of the things actually that I refer my clients to a lot for the steps of behavioral wellness. Sarah's training is quoted a lot in my private.

So everybody should go back and re-listen to that if you haven't yet. I was that owner. I did exactly that. I got way more than I first back in for. I was supposed to get like a mellow golden retriever. That's not what I got. So I was that owner. So I empathize a lot with what they go through. At the same time, I think if everybody's miserable, I mean, everybody's miserable, the dog is frustrated. If the family doesn't like the dog, I'm not afraid of having difficult conversations with them about rehoming possibly. So if everybody's suffering, that's not most of the cases, right? A lot of people are kind of suffering, but they're also willing to adapt and compromise or change their careers like I did. I was a musician. I was not a dog trainer. I was doing my PhD. So now here I am. But not everybody wants to change their careers because of the high energy dog. So I think just I read it somewhere. I cannot quote now from whom I forgot. But it's an example I always give to my clients, which is imagine you're a very active, high energy dog locked in a room without anything. If you imagine yourself, you take yourself, there's no phones, no computer, no book, no anything, but maybe a mat, maybe a mattress. And that's it. And a cup of water. And how many days can you sustain like that, right? So that brings a lot of empathy. And I think that example makes them understand very clearly what the dog actually needs. And referring to Sarah Strimmings, it's a great idea, I think. Mm-hmm. I like the focus there on empathy, the really, the idea that we need to figure out how to get our clients to kind of understand things from their dog's perspective. I think when it comes to behavior problems, that can't possibly be overemphasized. I mentioned, I think, that each of you have at least one class in the PPP program kind of focused on unwanted behaviors. So I want to talk about each of those for a minute. Tanya, I know you've got the Countering, Countersurfing in September and the My Ball, My Food, My Space Handling Resource Guarding in October. Can you just share a little bit about each of those? Yeah, absolutely. Both are the topics that I absolutely love. I like to help families to live successfully with their dogs. And both courses address common problem behaviors like that. Countersurfing is one that is a very popular topic, right? Who likes to eat while being watched or while being drilled at. No one wants it. So this course definitely addresses the topic of how to create clarity about how to access food without frustration for the dog. Dog wants food. Dog gets food. But on my own terms.

And I think getting clarity helps the dog understand exactly what is being reinforced so we don't see frustration. I talk a lot about cue transfers as well. So I talk about the environment as being a cue for the dog to settle. The smell of food or you chopping onions being the cue. So the dog will automatically go to her mat and lay down and wait. I don't expect that the dog will be calm. But at least they are waiting. So those are things that I think are super important so we can have a successful life as a family and a safe life as well. If you have kids and dogs who go for the kids' hands, that's not a safe thing. So we want to curb those behaviors, right? Okay. So the other class is the resource guardian class. It's also a topic that is very dear to me. I have a mild case of resource guarding on my hands. Mild. Whose golden isn't, right? They like having things in their mouth all the time. So the resource guarding class address mild cases of various kinds of resource guarding, maybe related to food, to toys, to spaces, maybe dog-dog issues. We talk about how to coach clients, how to set up this space. So with management, we solve a few of the issues. So it's a super fun class. I think people usually think research guarding is something boring to train. I kind of have fun with it because we have to think and plan the spaces a lot. And I think that that's a cool thing to do, personally. Right. Of course, I'm going to share some training plans as well, specifically about how to change, hopefully to change some emotions about it, but also how to use behaviors to reinforce better choices. So that's what I usually cover. Christy, you've got your Cars, Cats, and Kangaroos Don't Chase that class. That's also in October. Can you tell us a bit about that? Sure. This is going to be a fun class to teach. We'll go into several kinds of unwanted chasing behavior and into different approaches to resolving them. So do you simply manage the dog in the face of the distraction? Do you teach them to stay calm despite exciting things going on nearby? Or do you teach a solid recall of the thing that they'd like to chase? So we'll look into things like chasing choggers, chasing motorcycles, chasing animals. And I'll present several possible paths to working with these challenges. In particular, we'll talk about how to find a realistic solution for pet dog clients. So it's really not about what you would do if this were your dog. It's about what your client is likely to follow through on. And most people are not looking for the most elegant training solution. That elegant solution is often quite time consuming.

But most people really just want to walk their dog and be sure that the dog won't kill the neighbor's cat. So I'm going to emphasize finding a pragmatic and workable solution for the team in front of you. So that will be a big part of the class as well. Awesome. And then last but definitely not least, Chelsea, you've got a class on behavior intervention techniques in November. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Sure. So this is a topic that arose from a trend that we've noticed in the positive reinforcement training community, where sometimes people feel paralyzed about what to do in the actual moment when things are going really wrong, especially when it comes to actually stopping their dog or preventing some unwanted behavior or interaction from happening or continuing. I mean, of course, management prevention and training specific skills are at the top of our priority list in solving these overall problems. But right in the moment when things are going south, and especially if the safety and well-being or happiness of the dog, of the handler, of another dog or person in the environment is at risk, how do we actually intervene without damaging trust? So there's a mechanical teaching component to this to be able to safely, physically handle a dog in the kindest and least invasive way. But I think more importantly, we need to understand how to help our clients understand how to make the decision about when to provide choice and when we should step up and decide on behalf of the dog. And being able to do so, how do we make it clear that we aren't muddying our communication with our dogs and abroding confidence? How can we be mindful of the emotional consequences of these interventions? And what ways can we rebuild trust? I love that because it's, I mean, it's something you see constantly, right? When do we manage and when do we train? Or I think Amy Cook calls it therapy. So when can we do therapy versus when can we, when should we just manage the situation, just get out of touch? So I think that's crazy important. And I do think that's something that people really don't necessarily understand very well. All right. So I feel like we've covered a ton of ground here, but I wanted to ask you each, if you could really leave listeners with one big takeaway or tip for working on problem behaviors, what would you want folks to remember, you know, if they kind of get one nugget? Chrissy, do you want to start us off? The most important thing to take away from me would be, or that I want people to remember is don't equate your dog with his problem behavior.

Your dog and the behavior are not the same thing. So it's okay to love your dog. And at the same time, it's okay to be frustrated with his behavior or angry at his behavior. Uh, in most cases, the unwanted behavior really isn't an intrinsic part of the dog. And that's great news. Behavior is flexible and can be modified. Um, so you can work on changing your dog's behavior. And at the same time, you can keep loving him for who he is. Mm-hmm. Uh, Chelsea, do you want to go next? Mine's very similar. It's about looking at whatever problem you're dealing with as behavior and trying to look at it as objectively as possible. It is not the dog, it is behavior, it is the action. And then to understand the behavior and the context of the ABCs. And even though that's not the only model for what's happening, it's a very useful one to look at the context of the behavior. And I mean, everything from the environment to the emotional backdrop of that moment. And then what's the, um, what's occurring on the other side is the consequence of that behavior. And I think when we think in terms of cause and effect, we opened up many different possible solutions. Mm-hmm. So you mentioned ABCs. You're talking about antecedent behavior consequence, right? That's what the abbreviation says for? Okay. Uh, Tanya, do you have a takeaway for folks? Yeah. Don't address just the behavior you see directly, right? As people were saying, uh, uh, Chelsea and Chrissy, uh, mentioned those things already. So I think those are the main points. Uh, and this to me, like, I think the focus on antecedent is very, very important. Like all the possible things that we can consider antecedents or motivation operations, as people say, uh, that's a huge part, I think. So I focus a lot on those, of course, training, but, uh, when you focus on a, uh, we see a lot of cool things. Before we go, it turns out that, you know, I was looking at the schedule and it turns out that each of you have at least one class on the schedule before your unwanted behavior classes that we spent like most of this conversation talking about. So I wanted to just give each of you, uh, you know, a quick minute or so to talk about whatever PVP class you've kind of got coming up next. And if you know offhand what it runs, it'd be good to kind of mention that just so that folks listening know when to go sign up. Chelsea, do you want to start yourself? Sure. So this month I have, uh, managing multi-dog households that I think is available now, um, if you want to grab it. And I'm really happy with how it turned out.

Um, I talk about, um, a lot of different considerations, um, the logistics and like over some crucial skills that make living with a bunch of dogs easier on everyone. And I think in September I have, um, the high energy dogs workshop. I called it bouncing off the walls. Um, that workshop, we work up, we look at both, um, management aspects and training aspects is training a dog who is moving and thinking a million miles a minute is a really unique training challenge. Awesome. Tanya. Yeah. I have two workshops coming up very soon. The before baby setting the stage for a new baby in the family that's coming on August 11th. I have the after baby that comes on August 10th. Uh, I absolutely love those courses. I finished the PowerPoints this week and I'm in love with my PowerPoints. I think we all love it. There are a lot of ideas about, uh, of things that we don't necessarily think from this perspective of a new mom or family, uh, that now that I have been through with two babies, uh, I have a lot to share with you. And a lot of things are not necessarily common sense or they're not necessarily, uh, very common knowledge yet. Chrissy? My, my first PPP class, uh, come relationship strengthening recall games. Uh, I think it's still open for registration. And actually I just published a second lecture with my feedback on everyone's videos and questions this morning, right before, uh, uh, we started recording this podcast. Um, I really, really love teaching this workshop and recording my feedback lecture was even more fun actually than doing the first part. I, I got a lot of great questions and some awesome videos missions. Um, so I think by the time this podcast airs, if you wanted to, you'd still be able to grab the recalls workshop. Also my, my calling all dogs class, uh, is actually may also be open for registration when this podcast airs. It's running at FTSA in August. Um, and then in September I'm teaching walk with me. That's a class on leash skills for pet dogs. Um, it's going to go into different ways of working on leash skills from training and food based approaches to equipment based approaches and movement based approaches. So we'll talk about reinforcing the desired position next to the handler, which is the way that positive reinforcement trainers have traditionally trained loose leash walking. Um, we'll look into using front clip harnesses, longer leashes, or head halters to prevent pulling. And we'll also take a look at the knees fences, popular circle methods. So for, for folks that are listening, anything that was in July will be open for registration through the end of the month.

Um, so registration is always open. Even if the workshop has already happened till the end of that month, you just, if you register after the actual workshop, the live piece of the workshop has happened, you, you lose the opportunity to ask questions, um, or submit video homework, but you still do get access to all of that. So you get to see the questions everybody else asked and on the videos that they submitted, you get to see that feedback. The July ones that, that Chrissy mentioned and, um, somebody else had a July one too. Chelsea's will be available for registration through the end of the month. And then the ones for August open on the 22nd of the previous month. So July 22nd, we'll see registration open for all of the August workshops. And then it kind of continues that way. So the 22nd of August, you'll be able to register for the September workshops, et cetera. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining me, ladies. This has been a lot of fun. Thank you. This was really fun. All right. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Julie Flannery to talk about fronts, healing, positions, and more. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, they're next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.