E113: 카말 페르난데스(Kamal Fernandez) - 긍정성의 길

who does nothing really and just is a family pet and needs little playmate. Awesome. Yeah. So I understand kind of a lot's happened since we last chatted. You published a book. Yes. My book, Pathway to Positivity, was launched at Crufts this year, which was really, really exciting. It's been a long time coming together, a lot of planning and a lot of work going into it. And it was really exciting to launch it at Crufts, which is the biggest dog show in the world. And it was really, really well received. So I'm hugely in-depth and humbled by people's response to it and very, very proud of how it's sort of been received. So yeah, really exciting. Awesome. Well, congrats. Do you want to just share kind of a short overview? What's it about? Yeah. So Pathway to Positivity was, I was approached by the publishers to write a book basically discussing positive reinforcement-based dog training for dog sports specifically, and also discussing a little bit briefly about my journey on a personal level as a dog trainer from more traditional dog training when I first started, which was a considerable amount of time ago when primarily everybody did more show and tell with varying degrees of compulsion and possibly aversives in their training to now a trainer that uses positive reinforcement-based methodologies to train dogs in all spheres of dog sports and in all walks of life. So they approached me about the project, and it was an opportunity to share my experiences both practically and actually living, breathing, and walking that walk, or the path, I should say, of positive reinforcement-based dog training. I think that although there's a lot of information about reinforcement-based dog training out there, a lot of it is based on theory and what should happen. Whereas the book really is about a person, myself, my experience of actually trying to train dogs positively, as the phrase may be coined, and all the ups and downs that goes with it. And the book is a little bit of, there's some stories in there about my own dogs and the experiences I've had with them and the ups and downs of dog training, and also some ideas and skills that are unanimous and irrespective of the dog sport that you partake in. They're going to be a great asset in your artillery, and just some fun anecdotes along the way. Okay, so maybe this is an obvious one, but kind of just start with a basic question. You know, why did you write it? So I wrote the book because it was really, I started writing a blog some time ago, and I found that I really enjoyed it, to be truthful.

I enjoyed giving my opinion and insight into, you know, dog training and how it applies and how I perceive dog training and my experiences and sharing that with others. I mean, I teach a lot of people and I teach across the world, and I feel very passionate about what I do. It's very interesting to be able to work with people and to share that knowledge. And a book was a great way to take that even further. And also, it was, I suppose everybody would love to think of one day writing a book about their experiences and their journeys and their, in what they do. So I was really, it was a, it was really a bit of a labor of love, to be honest. It was a bit of a thing on my bucket list, so to speak. And all the things just aligned at the right, all the sun, the moon, et cetera, aligned at the right time for it to come together. The description, kind of looking at it, says, the book shares your process for developing a balanced, well-adjusted dog with skills that transfer to competitive dog sports. And I kind of thought that wording was interesting. Is the book for sports people, pet people? You know, who's the target audience? To be truthful, the book is applicable to all. Anybody that wants to have a dog that is a great family pet and a great ambassador for dogs full stop. I think that's where my primary agenda, whenever I get a dog into my home, I welcome a dog into my home. My first portal call is to create that dog being a model citizen and being a really nice dog that I'm not ashamed or embarrassed to own or take into different situations, or I feel concerned about where I take the dog. I have to be hypervigilant, et cetera, et cetera. My first portal call, aside from any specific skill for a dog sport, is to create a dog that is well-adjusted and balanced. I think that is my primary concern. And having had a lot of dogs over the years, varying breeds and varying backgrounds, rescue dogs, rehomed dogs, dogs that have had issues, you know, puppies, different breeds, et cetera. The thing that I would say was my benchmark was that all my dogs have got really, really stable dispositions. They're very easygoing about life. They don't tend to have any extreme end of the spectrum in terms of anxiety issues or phobias. And it was too many dogs for that to be a coincidence. And I started to really analyze why it is that my dogs tend to be that way and why I can take dogs that have got behavioral issues and relatively quickly improve their behavior. And when I broke it down and really started to scrutinize it, I realized there was key

things that I did in the way in which I rear them, how I handle situations, how I build their confidence that underpinned them then going on to be, hopefully, a great sports dog. Because to me, the two things go hand in hand. And I wouldn't want to own a dog that I could do sports with that on a day-to-day of life, the dog would be, you know, basically a problem or a hindrance to me. I want to have a dog that is a great dog to own, but I can walk it around the town center and the dog's, you know, really, really relaxed and chilled. And I can sit outside with my daughter and have my dogs around. Alternatively, I want to be able to take that dog into a sports arena. And the dog gives me 100% focus and commitment. And to me, the two things are interlinked. So I would say the book is actually applicable to anybody that owns a dog is in by the very nature of owning a dog becomes a dog trainer. So it's really for anybody that trains dogs. It seems like you start right at the beginning, the very first chapters on finding the perfect dog. So when you're considering that, you know, looking at choosing a dog, what factors do you go into? There's a lot in that chapter that really explores the endless list of criteria that we have when looking for inverted commas, the perfect dog. And the bottom line is that when we strip it all back, it's a little bit like I always equate it to going on Tinder or to dating or match.com, where you're trying to find the perfect partner. And what would be applicable for me, what would be suitable for me, wouldn't be suitable for somebody else. The key is to be truthful with yourself about who you are as an individual and what your aspirations and desires and wants and needs are in your life in order to find a dog that's suitable. I think often people put the sport before the ownership of the dog and therein lies the problem. You know, when you buy a dog because you believe it's going to bring you inverted commas to success, ultimately what will happens is that ends up being, you know, a relationship fraught with issues. Whereas if you are truthful with yourself about who you are as a trainer, as an individual, as a person and your lifestyle, and you find a dog that's going to best fit with that, you will ultimately have success in both entities, i.e. domestically living with the dog and owning the dog. You'll have a great deal of joy and also in a sporting arena. For me, looking for the perfect dog is very much a moment of self-reflection. You've got to think about what you're looking for and what you want that dog to do.

And therefore, that will determine the dog that's most suitable for you. I know in the, you know, from the TOC that you have several chapters on various pieces of training, the power of positive learning, how to be an effective clicker trainer, whether clicker training worries to every dog. So I want to kind of talk about this for a minute. I think most of the podcast audience probably, they're probably pretty bought into positive training if they listen to the podcast. But do you have any tidbits from working on the book that they might be able to use if they were talking to, you know, another dog owner who maybe isn't quite as bought into the idea? Absolutely. So my personal, my own personal journey has been an evolution from a trainer that like everybody, like most people at that time period used a melee of, you know, positive training. We used reinforcement. We used, you know, treats and toys, but we also used an added compulsion. And what I have learned by experience is that fallout, sorry, that punishment or the aversives or compulsion has fallout. It has a side effect. And that side effect might not be seen in the moment that you use it. And it might have the desired effect of stopping the behavior. But there is always a fallout from the use of punishment. And often we can't control where that subsequent fallout may occur. It's hard to control. For example, if you use an aversive on one behavior where that will then be transferred to that anxiety and tension that that technique has on the dog. Also for me, it's very much, I'm a trainer that, a dog owner that prioritizes my relationship with the dog above everything else. And I want to have a relationship which is based on trust would be definitely a huge part of that. And it isn't to say that, you know, balanced trainers or compulsive trainers aren't, that those methodologies don't work because I would be foolhardy to say that they don't. For me, it's more about what I'm willing to do with my dog in the name of a dog sport, first and foremost. And for me, dog sports are for our own gains and for our own ego. And as much as we aspire to train a dog to enjoy, love and crave the sport that we partake in, it's still largely for our ego. If, you know, to put a dog in a vehicle or fly it across the world or into another part of the country to compete in an event, that's for our gains. So for me, from a moral and ethical point of view, I feel strongly that we should be doing it, training our dogs in a way that doesn't compromise our morals and ethics. I'm very nonjudgmental about how people train their dogs to each their own.

In my experience, reinforcement based dog training is just so much more effective. And I equate it to my dogs of old would be watching television in black and white, you know, with the coat hanger in the for an aerial trying to get a decent signal. And my dogs now are watching HD surround sound, panoramic or singing or dancing for blockbuster movie. That's the comparison I would make in that not only is the information clearer to the dog, I can pinpoint really, really accurately where the strengths and weaknesses in my own training are, whether I've over-reinforced something, I haven't reinforced it enough, I haven't broken it down. I can, you know, I can constantly revise it. I can, there's so many benefits to the way in which I train and use reinforcement. There is less fallout from using reinforcement. The most you might create is a dog that's slightly confused or a dog that, you know, doesn't perform consistently within effective reinforcement based dog training, but that's applicable to all methodologies. But you tend not to get the other stuff that can be created when you use compulsion, etc. The other thing about reinforcement based dog training, which is unanimous to all training, is timing is a huge part of being an effective and proficient dog trainer. And using, you know, we all have days when our timing's off. I know sometimes I'll reward something or mark something and it'll be the absolute worst moment to do so because I'm a human being and I am tired or, you know, I might have over-anticipated or whatever the reason is, the most that's going to happen with my dogs now is that it takes them longer to learn the information. Whereas if the trainer of old, from my own personal perspective, is there would have been a mistimed correction, would it be grossly unfair to the dog. And again, it comes back to the relationship I want to have with my dogs. I want them to be trusting of me. And although they might be confused, they can, the most that's going to happen is they're going to get a treat or a reinforcement or a lack of reinforcement at, you know, an incorrect moment. But there isn't any physical discomfort or pain being inflicted on them at an incorrect moment, which basically is being grossly unfair. So for me, you know, I could talk about reinforcement-based dog training all day and how my own personal experience has shown me consistently across the board with numerous dogs of my own and my students, et cetera, that have shown it can be done and done very, very well. So, yeah, hopefully that's what the book basically says.

You know, it really does go into the practical applications of reinforcement-based dog training and also my own personal struggles with my own dogs and how I had those moments where I questioned, is this the right approach, can I do this, et cetera, et cetera. So hopefully it's written in a way that's user-friendly. It's just a personal perspective, really. So knowing that most of our audience probably has at least a little bit of clicker training experience, can you share, you know, a tip or two from the book or kind of off the top of your head that might still apply to them that can kind of help them be more effective when it comes to clicker training? Yeah, absolutely. So this is the one that will probably be controversial in when I say it in that I don't click for approximations when I'm shaping behavior. And what I mean by saying that, this is the one that can often split a crowd of people like, you know, Moses at the Red Sea, I don't click my dogs. I don't press the button on the clicker when my dog gives me an approximation of a behavior. I only click when the dog does the end behavior that I'm training at that moment. And the reason being is that, for me, that keeps the power of the clicker far clearer to the dog. Often when I see people shaping, they are clicking and reinforcing the dog for approximation. So the dog sniffs the box, they click, the dog pauses the box, they click, the dog eventually gets in the box and they click and reward. Well, from the way in which my dogs would perceive that information, there's three behaviors that I've told them I like, which for me would be confusing. So the way in which I train and which is different to a lot of people is I will reward the dog for approximations. I might give the dog a tree, I might praise the dog, but I ultimately wait for the dog to do the end behavior before I press the magic button and save the dog. That's exactly what I want in that session. The reason that, to me, is more clear and effective for dogs is it allows me to minimize my dog's confusion. So, for example, with the previous explanation I offered, the dog would be offering me three responses and it would be correct because I've clicked all three, i.e. sniffing, pawing and getting in the box. Whereas the way in which I train, although I've reinforced them and given them the tree, the dog will over time understand that the click is the thing that they're working for. So when they hear that magic word or that magic marker, they will very quickly dump all the variations and keep consistently offering that same behavior. That's one thing I would offer.

The other thing is that, and again, it's a bit controversial, is once my dog understands something and I minimize my dog's failure and frustration when they are learning, once they learn, then I'll challenge them and I will almost allow them to get a bit frustrated, minimally frustrated. So it teaches them to work through that little bit of they're not quite sure what they want. And I equate it again to the dog figuring out how to get through the maze. A lot of trainer thought about clicker training and shaping is to not have any failure. And for me, I think there's a level of failure and frustration that is healthy for a dog developing confidence and tenacity and the ability to think in a heightened state of arousal. And I employ this technique a lot with dogs that are reactive or have reactivity issues to teach them how to think in a heightened state of arousal and when they're frustrated to actually use their brain as opposed to just reacting inappropriately. So two things there that I probably do a little bit different from other people when it comes to clicker training. Yeah, and they're both super interesting. I'll have to think on those because that's got wheels turning. To dig in kind of the third piece there that I mentioned, you know, does clicker training work for every dog? Clicker training definitely does work for every dog. However, and the caveat to that is not all dogs take to it initially well. And in my experience, there is a type or a strain or an ilk of dog that really doesn't do well with clicker training in terms of offering behavior. And that is dogs that have been primarily bred to do a task. And bearing in mind a lot of the dogs that we have for sports are of an ilk. So I'm going to use the breed that I first experienced this with, which was my Malinois. And I noticed when I first tried to shape my first Malinois, he was really, really, he hated shaping. He hated offering behavior. He just wanted to be shown. And I tell a little, I think it's in the book possibly, about teaching the dog a hand touch. And a hand touch is a relatively basic behavior, but that I would consider a basic behavior for a dog to learn. And I could get him to do a singular nose tap. And I wanted him to maintain contact and sustain duration. And the dog couldn't do it. And I spent probably about a month battling away. And I could get no more than three taps. And the dog would get frustrated. And he'd displace. And he'd avoid. And he'd work away. And et cetera, et cetera. And out of my own frustration, one day I just got so exasperated with the whole process.

I put my hand on his nose, held it for three to five seconds, and I clicked him. Instantaneously, the dog went, I know exactly what you want me to do. Now, the behavior that I'd been battling with for a month, say approximately, I couldn't progress it. Within that one session, the dog was doing a sustained hand touch with duration. And I could walk down the road, et cetera, et cetera. And he wouldn't remove his nose until I clicked him. And it was a really, really profound example of a dog that didn't want to problem solve. And if you look at it or think about it logically, he was from a long line of dogs that had been bred to do a task and to do it very, very well. So you create a dog that's very tenacious, very, very biddable, that has an incredible desire to work. But they are, generally speaking, what I would qualify as a show and tell dog. Show them what you want and then tell them what to do and they'll do it. So the ability to think laterally has often been taken out of that ilk of dogs. So when you ask them to offer behavior, they get frustrated very, very easily. And frustration in breeds like Malinois are actually a desirable trait because, for example, for protection work, frustration is used to create animation and drive, et cetera, et cetera. But from a collica trainer's point of view, frustration in offering behavior is crucial for my dog's learning. Now, I could have chopped that down. I could have played around with varying ways of approaching that. Bearing in mind this was nearly 20 years ago. So my learning curve with that dog was to teach him in a way that actually taught him how to think through and to be a problem solver. And I learned the lesson with him, which I then employed with my subsequent Malinois. And, you know, her skill set and her ability to problem solve is phenomenal. But it wasn't natural to the dog. It was taught to her. And I still say to this day she's as good a dog as she is and she doesn't get over aroused or she doesn't get overstimulated. And she has an amazing ability to regulate her own drive, which wasn't innate within the dog. She was actually more extreme than him as a youngster because of that technique that I've used to teach her how to to think when she's excited and to listen when she's in a heightened state of arousal, which are crucial components for a sports dog. We want our dogs to perform things in an environment that is challenging. We want them to perform behaviors in drive and in speed. We need to also ensure that we're teaching them to utilize their brain in the same vein.

That's kind of interesting because I think that most people would think about that problem differently, right? But I like how you explained it as the dog just didn't know how to kind of think laterally or didn't know how to kind of figure out how to problem solve. And you had to kind of teach that concept, which is kind of neat. Yeah. And, you know, certain breeds of dogs, like I'd say, Australian Shepherds are phenomenal for lateral thinking. Absolutely amazing at problem solving. Whereas a breed like, you know, Malinois or working line German Shepherds, not so great at it. They get frustrated very easily and they almost want to use their brawn rather than their brain. And as I say, it's just it's one of the many observations that I've made about clicker training. So coming back to the individual, the original question of does clicker training work for every dog? Yes, it does. But it's really down to the application of the methodology. You've also kind of got this chapter on play. So I was curious, what do you get into there? So play is for me, it's a crucial part of my relationship with my dogs. And I believe that all dogs will play. But whether they'll play to the point of where it can be used as reinforcement is another question. But for me, play is a medium to check my dog's temperature in terms of their temperament, how they're feeling in an environment. I can also gauge if the dog is confident, if it's over aroused. I can observe the way in which it's playing and I can tell if the dog's apprehensive or anxious or worried or whatever the case may be, all via the medium of play. It allows me to build trust in with my dogs because I can introduce handling. I can deal with, you know, if the dog's concerned about something, I can utilize play. And I think plays are really, it's a bit of a lost art in that people are tending to use food to train their dogs, which is brilliant. But I think there's definitely more that we could be doing to utilize play effectively. And I would say that play as a reinforcement is a huge, huge skill to develop with your dogs that is worth investing into. You know, for example, with my jackapoo, Sugar, she was a dog that didn't come with play or didn't want to play. And she was very concerned about your hands moving around her when you tried to play with her. And I shared a video of one of her early play sessions on YouTube, which, you know, you could see the dog very, very uncomfortable with me playing with her and very concerned.

And it was a huge part of improving our relationship or certainly establishing a relationship with her was to build trust via the medium of play to teaching that dog that my hands can be near her, on her and around her. And I can engage with her and use the toy. And, you know, sometimes I push you away and to have resilience and that all that stuff I can create via the medium of play, which is hot with with you can do it with food. But for me, it's far more relationship enforcing or reinforcing to do via the medium of play. I mean, bearing in mind that play is a huge part of social interaction for all, you know, living beings. You know, people play, dogs play, horses play, cats play, etc. So interspecies play is such a huge medium for which we could we can tap into and use and therefore extend our relationship with our dogs. The other piece that I really wanted to get into was that in the description, you kind of mentioned the importance of laying good foundations. And I know we talked about this a little bit at the beginning. But when you say good foundations, is that kind of what you're talking about? Is just like the piece for a well-adjusted dog or are there, you know, in terms of training foundations, are there skills that you consider are important for the dog to learn for that good, solid foundation? Yeah, absolutely both. So, you know, the foundation I lay with my dogs for being really great pets, i.e. playing with them, being able to play with the toy, bringing the toy back to me, allow me to handle them when I play with them, you know, touching them, interacting with them, them being able to offer me behavior, etc., etc. are all fundamental skills or foundation skills for sports. But they also underpin my dog being a really, really confident, outgoing dog full stop. So, for example, like I talked about shaping. Shaping is a great way to teach my dog that, you know, they can access the thing that they want if they offer me behavior that I want or if they offer me behavior. So that, when you're talking about a skill for dog sport, say, for example, the dog, you know, putting its feet on a perch is a behavior that I would shape. But I can also do that. I can apply the principle of the dog offering me behavior to get what they want when I'm working on a domestic vehicle or if the dog wants to, you know, chase squirrels or birds, etc. I can apply that same logic in order to get control over them and also to create a dog that I can take into a field with, you know, livestock or other dogs. And the dog understands how to behave. So the principles are all the same.

And I think it's really important to not differentiate between a dog that's trained for a dog sport versus a well-behaved domestic dog. I mean, my life skill classes, which I run on a weekly basis for just people that want to have a really nice dog, are all based on dog sport skills. And the ultimate goal is to train the dogs to be, you know, model citizens and also to create the foundations for a fantastic relationship that's going to last a lifetime, which surely is what we all aspire to do with our dogs. I love that perspective, just approaching dog sports from that angle of starting with, you know, building out life skills and how interwoven those two things are. Absolutely. I mean, I think the other, sorry, interjecting there is, you know, all of us have to be realistic in that, you know, my boxer, you know, had a major injury and there was a, you know, his career was in jeopardy. I mean, I didn't know whether the dog would ever compete. And I was then, inverted commas, stuck with this, you know, purpose-bred sports dog that would have been just a pet. And, you know, he had a shoulder injury, which would have limited his ability to do any dog sport, you know, never mind the one that I intended him to partake in. And the reality is, is if I'd just focus primarily on creating this dog that loved to bite and chase and, you know, and fight with helpers, I would have had a really, really horrible domestic pet dog. Because, you know, I've created these beasts that I then can't live with. Whereas my approach is create a dog that I want to live with first and foremost, and then build the other attributes from there. And, you know, the reality is, is that, you know, our dogs, when we partake in dog sports, if we place all our emphasis on that, then we are certainly, for me, missing out the joy of owning a dog to its absolute fullest. So anything else that you want to share that folks should really know about the book? Just that the book is, as I say, it's a personal perspective. And it was definitely a labor of love and one of passion. And I hope that they enjoy it as much as I did putting it together and reminiscing about some of the stories and looking at old photos. And I hope that that comes across to the reader. I mean, the feedback so far has been absolutely amazing and really, really humbling. And I hope that people continue to enjoy it and share it with other people and provide the feedback they have on it. I'm immensely proud of it. Hopefully, you know, I might have another project in the pipeline.

I'm a bit of a sneak peek there. Yeah, exactly. This might be something else coming up. But for now, Pathways to Positivity is my book that I've got out. And I hope people enjoy and, you know, glean from the pages. So where is it available right now? Where should people go if they want to find it? Yeah, great question. So at the moment, it's you can get it from performance.co.uk. Basically, I'll do it direct from them. I know Clean Run are going to be stocking it in the States. And I believe there's been pockets of people importing it to New Zealand and Australia. But I think that's been more a little group of people that have been enthusiastic about the book and they did a bulk order. If you do want to order a book, I would suggest just contacting performance.co.uk and they'll be able to assist. Awesome. Last question here. I've been asking everyone who comes on lately this one last question. So what's something you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Oh, this is an easy one. The concept of consent in dog training was something that I recently was teaching for a fellow FDSA instructor, Julie Simons in New York, and the discussion of consent came up in dog training. And it really got me head scratching about consent and how applicable it is to my own dog training. And do I ask for consent, et cetera, et cetera. And it really got me looking at my training and analyzing my own training. And the long and short of it is that I think that any trainer that is concerned or cares about the dog's engagement and the relationship should, instinctively, I should say, looks for consent from the dog. Because without consent and the dog's willingness to engage with you, you're going to create a very different response than one that we aspire to create. And one of enjoyment and connection, et cetera. And the only way you could do that is to have a willing partner. So I think consent and the concept of it was something that I hadn't consciously made a note of. It wasn't that, but it was definitely subconscious within my training and a definite thread through the way in which I rear my dogs. To have them constantly consenting to what I'm doing with them and engaging with me from the correct perspective. And if they aren't willing and they don't give me consent, how that steers my own decision making in order to, for want of a better term, win them over and persuade them that what I'm asking them to do is either beneficial or enjoyable or acceptable or in some cases not. And finding alternatives for what the dog isn't comfortable with, et cetera.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Kamal. This has been great. My pleasure. Lovely to talk to you as always. I wish you all the best and hopefully people enjoy the book. Thank you. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Sarah Stramming to talk about adolescent dogs. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice. They'll be next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.