E89: 바바라 커리어(Barbara Currier) - 위브 사랑하기 배우기

But he's hopefully going to have a promising career in agility, and he's also doing dock diving, which he already is obsessed with. That's fun. The waffle, right? Yes, that's the waffle. So I wanted to focus on weave poles today. I know you have a class on that coming up. But as a non-agility person, I'm going to totally admit that some of my questions are a little on the basic side. First off, just wow. Like, without knowing how to train them, if you look at weave poles in general, it seems like such a complex behavior. Can you break it down for us a little bit? What pieces or skills kind of have to come together to have really well-trained weave poles? Well, weaves are actually my most favorite piece of equipment to teach out of all of the agility equipment. It's the hardest behavior for the dogs to learn because it's the most unnatural. Like, if you look at agility as a whole, it's pretty much all natural behaviors for the dogs, things that you would see them doing if they were out running in the woods, except you don't normally see them weaving through trees. So weave poles is really very unnatural. And so it can be quite difficult to teach them that. And I find it such a fun puzzle to teach it. And I love to make it a game for them so that they find it as much fun as I do. The downside on weaves is it can be hard on their bodies. So you just want to make sure that they're physically ready to ask what we want them to do. So you just want to make sure that they're old enough and that they're strong enough because it is, it is can be, it can be quite taxing on them. But one of the parts of weave poles is the dog must learn to always enter the first with the first pole at their left shoulder and then continue their rhythm through all 12 poles. So it's a very specific behavior. And it can be difficult for the dogs to do this at extreme speeds and still maintain all 12 poles. So they have to learn how to use their body so that, you know, they're at full speed and they can hit all 12 poles. Oftentimes the dogs will pop out if they haven't been taught properly how to do that. Or they'll get their entry and not be able to hold on to the poles. Because there's a lot of things that come together with weave poles. There's a lot of body awareness. There's a lot of them knowing how to rock their weight back on their haunches to collect to get into the poles. There's footwork involved. There's two different styles of footwork in poles. There's the swimming or the single stepping. And then there is the bounce stride. Most big dogs single step and most little dogs bounce stride,

but which kind of looks like a rabbit hopping in between. I say most because I do know quite a few big dogs that bounce stride. Um, and they do just fine. Their weaves are just as fast. It's not a problem. Um, but a lot of people sometimes get a little too hung up on the footwork. If they, you know, if they have a big dog and they see their big dog is bounce striding, they don't like that. They want to make them single stride. But I think it's important to let the dog choose what is most comfortable for their body type and for the way they move. Um, as long as they're not doing a combination of both, that tends to have problems. Um, but you really want it to become muscle memory for the dogs so that when they're doing the behavior, they're not thinking about it. They're just doing it. And that's where the speed comes from. The more that they think about it, the slower it is, the more methodical it is. But we want it to become muscle memory so that, um, they're just going through the motions. So, uh, just to make sure everybody's on the same page. So single step, you're talking about when they go into the weaves and it's, okay, I'm on my left foot on the left side and my right front foot on the, on the right side. And bounce is when they have, you know, both feet on the ground on each side, right? Yeah. Yep. Awesome. Wanted to make sure, cause you know, terminology and stuff. So, so even kind of not knowing much about the topic, right? I've heard of things like two by two training. Um, I've seen trainers kind of use guide wires, uh, you know, moving the poles and then gradually getting them closer together, things like that. Can you just kind of briefly explain what some of the different methods are that are out there, what those things are, what people are talking about? So there's basically three, uh, different methods to training weaves poles. So there's the two by two method, um, where you teach them much like it says in the name, you teach them two poles at a time. The channel method where, um, it basically looks like a shoot of weaves poles and you slowly can close the shoot. It's the way the base is made so that it slowly comes together. So the dog starts with just running down the middle of the poles in a straight line. And then as the poles start to come closer and closer together, the dog actually has to start weaving to do it. And then the third one is the guide wires, um, where it, it looks where it's guide wires that are put on the poles. So it basically looks like a maze that the dog walks through, um, and, and they can learn that way. That's kind of interesting.

So, so which approach do you usually use for your dogs and what are you kind of using in the class? So my preference, um, is the two by two method. The base of my, my preference is from the method that I learned from Susan Garrett with her two by twos. And then I have over the years adapted, um, for some things with my own dogs and some, some holes that I was constantly seeing with dogs that were coming to me. I'm kind of known as a weed guru in my parts. And so whenever people start having weed problems, they come to me and I, I kept seeing a lot of the same issues. Um, and it was, and even with people that had taught their dogs with two by twos, but what was interesting was I didn't see the issues with my dogs and I wasn't actually sure quite at first what I was doing differently than what everybody else was doing where my dogs weren't having this issue, but other people's were, and I ended up with my, I took a young dog that I was just training and I basically documented every single thing I did to try to find what I was doing differently than what everybody else was doing. Um, and found that it was a lot in my beginning stages of my approaches that would prevent these holes from happening that I was seeing in other people's dogs. And so I have kind of modified it to adding more of that stuff in and a little bit of other things that I've found here and there that have helped with it. I think when you say approaches, you mean the dog approaching the polls or are you talking about something else? When the dog approaches the polls. Yeah. So like in the class, we do what's called, um, entries like on and around the clock game. So you kind of have your polls in the middle and you pretend you're standing on a clock and you work through your different entries. But what I was finding with a lot of people is a lot of people stayed at the straight on approaches or the more straightforward, easy approaches. And I wasn't being methodical about this. I just didn't do it. I did not stay at those approaches much. I stayed at the harder approaches. And so right from the beginning, the dogs would learn to bend and hit those weave entries from a more difficult angle and with speed right from the beginning and went on two polls. It's easy. The reward comes fast and, um, it's easy to find. And so I was finding that with my dogs, I was building up the muscling along their spine right from the beginning and, um, was building up that drive to find the poll, really dig in and grab that entry. So I do very, I do really very few easy entries right off from the beginning.

And I don't really concern myself with those entries until I start adding in like the full six and the full 12, because I consider those entries easy where those entries become difficult is when the dogs are at full speed and they have to learn how to power down to get into their polls. So I worry about that once I start adding in, um, sequencing and that type of thing. But from the beginning, I really worked those hard entrances right at the first two polls. And it really seems to help with some of the fallout that happens down the road, like getting the entry and not being able to hang on to the polls or, um, missing the entry and going into the second poll and those types of things. That's really interesting. I was actually going to ask you, you know, this kind of feeds well into what my next question was, which, you know, I think our listeners in particular are probably pretty familiar with the idea of kind of building up skills gradually, but it seems like there's so many pieces, uh, to the weave poles or so many different axes, right? That you have to gradually kind of make more difficult. You've got your speed, you've got the number of poles, you've got the entries, you've got the sequencing, you know, you're more advanced handling. So can you just talk a little more about how you juggle all those different pieces? Is there an order that makes sense for people as they kind of try and put the things together? Do you work on them in different training sessions? I mean, how does that work? How do you approach it? So I start with two poles and teach the dog to find the entry from all the different angles and with speed and enthusiasm right from the start. And then, um, again, like I mentioned before, the reward comes fast when you're only using two poles. So it's the perfect, perfect time to get the dog to think that the game is really, really fun. I also keep my sessions incredibly short, like, um, three correct entries on each side and then done. And so my dogs are looking at me like, uh, seriously, that's it. Like that, that's all we get. And I'm like, yep, that's it. That's we're doing, we're done. That was the session. And so the more we play this game and it's super fast and it's super fun and it, and it all happens really fast. The more they're like, oh my God, this is the most fun game ever. I, all my dogs love weave poles so much because it's because I keep everything so fast and exciting. And then when they're like, this is the most fun I know of. I'm like, yeah, I know. I mean, we're done now. And they're thinking, what, what? No, I was just getting into it.

And I'm like, yeah, well, we got to wait till the next session then. So I really want them to love, love the game. And the other thing that's important is that I don't worry about if they're wrong. I want them to make mistakes. If they're not making mistakes, it's too easy. But I also want them to understand that making a mistake is not a big deal. I want them to learn how to fail and just keep trying with the same amount of enthusiasm. Often dogs, when they make a mistake, they're like, oh, I can't do it anymore. It's so hard. That reward didn't come. I can't do it. I can't do it. And then the owner gets stressed and then the dog gets stressed. And suddenly it's a meltdown for everyone. And so when my dogs make a mistake, it's just, oh, my God, we're going to try that again. That was a good choice. But come on, we're going to try it again. And they just don't get the reward. And they're like, OK, OK, I'll be better this time. I'll get it. I'll get it. And to them, it's just like a mystery that they're trying to solve or a puzzle they're trying to figure out. And so they're super happy to try again for me. And it's not a big deal. And there's never any shutdown and, oh, this is too hard. This is too hard. Now, if they fail twice in a row, I will take a step back and I might back chain. Like, OK, so this may be standing here at 3 o'clock is a little too hard for you. But what if I stand at 2.30? Can you do it at 2.30? And then we'll go from there. And if they're correct a couple of times at 2.30, then I'll go to 2.45. And how is this? Can we do this now? And so on and so on. And then from there, we move to four poles and kind of follow the same thing as above. And then we move on to six poles. Of course, we angle them a certain way. And then we gradually make them straighter and straighter. And then I stay at six poles until I'm in love with the dog's footwork, speed, and understanding of their job. Oftentimes, a lot of people will get to six and they're like, OK, now it's 12. But the dog doesn't fully understand their job yet. And all we've done by adding in six more is we've just made it harder. We've made the reward farther away and the dogs really start to slow down. So I stay. I'm in no rush to leave six until I'm in love with the behavior the dog is showing me. I really want them to be confident in their footwork. I really want to see what we talked about earlier, the muscle memory and not so much the hard thinking about the job. I want all that to come out now so that when we move on to 12, then it's just getting the

stamina of doing this behavior longer for 12 poles and just getting the speed going for that long of a distance. Then once I have the footwork and the speed that I really like at the 12, then I'll start working in distractions like, you know, can you do your weave poles when there's a dog playing tug next to them? Can you do your weave poles if I'm throwing a Frisbee? Can you do your weave poles if I have a plate of chicken next to you? All these things so that when they get into working in a trial environment, the stuff that I like to call it my quote unquote torture, which my dogs love because it's like a super game for them, that they're like, oh yeah, trial distractions. This stuff's easy compared to what mom does to us at home because they get these huge, massive jackpots when they can go through the weave poles when I'm throwing a Frisbee. And, you know, like one of my, I've had a few dogs over the years that were food driven dogs only. And of course we worked up to this, but one of the things that I do with my food driven dogs for a distraction is I will line the base of the weave poles with steak and they have to weave over top of the steak and not touch it. And then at the end, if they're successful, they can come back and eat all the steak. And it's so much fun. And I recently, I have a young group of dogs in a class that just started trialing and they had been with me since they were all eight week old puppies. And now they're all trialing and it's been really cool to see. And when they were all learning their weave poles, I had a little Sheltie that was very food driven, not toy driven. And so we did that and she's like, oh, she's never going to do it. And she did it like a rock star. Like she just was like, oh yeah, steak on the weave poles. Yep. We got this. I know my job. So it's, it's really, yeah, it's really, really fun. Then once I worked through this distraction stuff, then I start handling moves. You know, can you stay in your poles when I'm front crossing before and after the poles? Can you stay in your poles when I'm rear crossing, when I'm blind crossing? And then I add a jump and, you know, now can you do your poles when another piece of equipment's been added to it? Can you do your poles when a jump is after the weave poles, when you see something else coming? Um, you know, can you do your weave poles when there's a tunnel nearby? When we're going to go to a tunnel. Then once I'm loving all that stuff, then I add the next six and then we do the distractions again. And then we start adding in more difficult sequencing.

I mean, you've definitely got it down to like a method and approach and all the pieces are there. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's important for people to recognize that you really do have to kind of work through all those things systematically. And yeah, for sure. So, uh, both in the course description and just now you kind of mentioned the idea of having your dog actually love the weave poles. So, you know, forgive me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like a big piece of that is really about confidence, right? Making sure that they know how to do the behavior correctly. Can you talk a little bit about that? So how does, you know, loving the weaves and confidence, how do those things kind of go hand in hand when it comes to getting good performance on course? Like I talked about before, it's all about teaching the dogs that the game is awesome. So that means keeping the session super short, making them always want more, making them understand that mistakes are fine. Mistakes are not a big deal. Um, and that it's just a puzzle. This didn't work. Good try. Let's try something else. So the, and the more value that they have in knowing exactly what their job is, the better the performance is going to be and the drive into the weed. So, um, I do little, I call them mini weed drills, um, which I go over in the, the class too, um, that I do with my dogs a couple of times a week. And I go outside with one stick of cheese. And so when that stick of cheese is gone, game over. And I take off really big bites, like huge chunks, like probably like an inch, inch piece of cheese. So super easy to see, not crumbly. And so basically I get maybe four to six times pieces of cheese out of one stick. And so I go out and I take my, whatever course I have set up in my field and I take all the jumps and I just put the bars on the ground because to me, when, when I'm working my mini weed drills, it's not necessarily about the jumping. Um, it's about the love for the weeds. So I put all the bars on the ground and then I just randomly walk around the field and from different approaches of jumps without having bars. I send my dogs to the weeds, sometimes with motion, sometimes with no motion. And I will sometimes do very weird handling moves, um, things that I would, that you would never see in a course. I will, I will send them to like the weirdest types of entries. Sometimes my husband, my husband will come out with me and he'll, he doesn't really know agility very well. Um, and so he'll, so I'll say, Hey, um, you know, Mike, tell me, tell me how to get me to in these weeds, you know, send, tell me something.

He'll be like, all right, go from that jump to the weeds. And it's completely random. And like, you know, she has to skip like four jumps or, you know, do this massive, crazy entry and we do it and it's fun. And she thinks it's the most amazing game. And I do that a couple of times a week and it's super easy. It's quick. She gets these big hunks of cheese, which are like a meal for her. And so she thinks that we've pulled are the most fun thing in the world to do. In fact, the, my agility field is sensed off from the rest of my property. So when the dogs are outside, they can't get into the agility field and they all run to the field gate, like all the time. And if I let them in, the first thing they do is run over to the weeple because they're like, Oh, we doing those drills? Cause those are super fun. And that's what you want to get from your dogs. And that's going to get that performance. And so when I'm at trials and I say to my dog, go weave, they hit those weaves with such intensity and such drive. And they dig in so hard to get those entries and keep those poles. And they work so hard because I've created so much value for the poles. So to kind of take a little bit of a step back, I guess, what are, you know, when people are working on things, what are some of the common training mistakes people make as they're, they're trying to teach weaves? What, what problems do they cause? I mean, if you, if you're looking at a little bit of problem solving there, what do you see people doing that maybe isn't optimal? So the biggest one is moving too fast. Moving to 12 poles before the dog is solid at six. So I tell my students, there's no trophy or title for the person who can train their weaves the fastest. And so when people get six, they're like, I'm just going to add on the next six. And it's going to be great because we all want to say my dog has 12 poles. But all you're doing is by moving too fast is that the dog is not clear really on what their job is, is you're getting slow, inconsistent weaves that have to be managed or babysat because the dog doesn't really understand. And so they're just going to get slower and slower. And they're going to get frustrated because they're going to be confused. And then you're going to get frustrated and it just becomes this vicious cycle. And that's usually when people start coming to me and, you know, oh, my dog can, can get the entries, but they can't hold on, you know, that type of thing. And so then they come to me and I often find that they moved to 12 poles before the dogs really understood six.

And my advice is always, okay, let's go back to the beginning. We need to redo this. So, you know, that was kind of going to be my next question is how do you problem solve some of those issues? So do you basically just do that, take the step back, go back to six poles and kind of retrain, you know, all those different aspects before you go back to 12? Or, I mean, is there kind of more to it? So it depends exactly what the issue is. So the most common problems are missing entries at speed. So if it's a missing entry problem, then I usually recommend that we go back to two poles so that we can start with, can you find your entries from all different areas without having to have the dog wait for the reward to get through all six poles? That makes sense. Because again, the reward comes quicker on two poles than it comes on six poles. So it's easier gratification for the dog. So I like to, for missed entry, start back at two poles and then I work up to the four, up to the six. Now with a dog that already understands the, um, the concept of poles, it goes really fast. It really doesn't take long at all to revisit these things and, and, and get the dog to understand. If the dog is having problems with, they get their entry, but then they can't hold onto the poles because they're going at speed. Well, then I will start them back at four poles or six poles. Um, and, but add in sequencing. So coming off of a tunnel. So we've got some speed, um, and really teaching them how to grab that entry and hold onto the poles. And with that comes, they also need to be building up some muscling for it. Um, and so a lot of it, I think with those dogs comes from, um, doing more straight on approaches and not enough of the angle approaches from the very beginning where they can build up that strength along their spine. And then one of the other ones is the popping out at 10 pole, which a lot of dogs do. Um, oftentimes I find those were from the handlers that try to leave the dogs, um, whether it's they're going lateral or they're trying to get a little bit ahead and they never taught the independent poles from the beginning. They really babysat the poles because they wanted the dog to be right so badly. So they stayed back and they basically matched the dog speed and they were right there. But once they wanted to put them into sequencing, they wanted to leave, but we didn't actually teach the dog that. And so now the dogs are like, well, you're leaving. So I'm leaving too. So when I teach this from the very beginning, it is completely independent from the handler. We have, we are quite far away from the beginning.

We have nothing to do with it. We don't help them. We don't lure them through the entry. We don't, we don't, we don't do any of that. It's all on them. So it's quite easy the way I teach it from the beginning to have that, um, lateral and independence because we, we teach it to them from the very beginning, as long as you continue with it. Cause oftentimes what I'll see is the dogs have this amazing independence when we get through the end of the training, but then the owners go right back to babysitting and then the dogs will lose it. So I'm, so I, I have to constantly remind my students, your dog has the skill, trust them, let them show you they can do it and leave them. This is a question I don't usually ask here on the podcast, but, um, I used to love back when I was a journalist kind of asking this question, cause it seems to always get kind of unexpected nuggets of interesting information. Um, and since I've never trained a dog to weave and don't always talk about the topic, obviously you're the expert. Is there anything important that I didn't think to ask or that you'd want people to think about kind of as they're working on weave poles with their dog? You know, probably the most important thing about weave poles that I think sometimes gets overlooked, forgotten, or people don't think it's as important as it should be is your dog must be done growing before you teach weave poles. Like I said, in the beginning, it's one of the hardest obstacles on their body. And I always make sure when I have young dogs that I take them and have them x-ray to be positive that their growth plates have closed before I start training weave poles. So you can do a lot of damage to them. It's very hard on their shoulders. It's very hard on their spine. It can be hard on their neck. Um, and it's not, it's, it's not something you want to do until you're a hundred percent sure that they are done growing. And the other great thing about doing the x-rays is I always have, um, usually around 14 months, I always have full x-rays done of, um, shoulders, elbows, hips, and knees. And so one, I can tell that the growth plates are closed or not closed. And if, you know, depending on your breed, um, I have a student that has a borzoid and she x-rayed her at 14 months and her growth plates were nowhere near done being closed, but she's a borzoid, you know, but, but it was good information to have, um, because we certainly, especially with a breed that large, don't want to be doing even really contacts if their growth plates aren't closed and hers didn't close for quite a while after that.

So, um, you know, that's really important information to have. But it also gives you a picture of what your dog's body looks like before you do the sport with them, whether you've got any elbow dysplasia or hip dysplasia, or it was, you know, without getting a picture, some dogs don't even show these things. And, um, to me, I just think it's super important to know what you're starting off with. Right. Right. And I'd imagine it's useful to have those, heaven forbid, they do get injured at some point later on, you have a baseline. Yes, for sure. Picture to kind of refer back to. For sure. And the other thing that I always, um, and I bring this up in the class too, is if I have somebody come to me and they say, you know, my dog is always weaved really well and they're now popping out at pull 10 or they can't hit their entry. Like, but they never had a problem with it before. My first thought is your dog probably has an injury and that needs to be addressed first. Um, you know, as, as we, all of the FENSE instructors try to teach dogs are not, um, they're not out to try to make us mad and push our buttons. That's not the way dogs work. So if your dog is all of a sudden exhibiting something that is unusual for them, the first thing I check is injury. And so I, you know, like my, um, my poodle who loves her weave pulls, a tell for me that she has a rib out is if she misses her weave entry because she never misses weave entries. And so if she can't hold on, I, I mean, I immediately like leave the ring and we'll bring her to a chiropractor and sure enough, she'll have a rib out. And I certainly don't want her running with a rib out. I don't know if you've ever had a rib out before, but it is incredibly painful and I don't want her running like that. And so I let my dogs tell me, I don't just assume, oh, she's being bad or she's being lazy. I assume, oh, okay. You're actually really trying to tell me something and what you're telling me is, oh, that really hurts. I need some help here. And once we, once we put it back, you know, get everything back, she's totally fine. But I certainly wouldn't want to just be annoyed at her and expect her to run all weekend like that. So, um, you know, that's something that I try to instill in my students is, you know, make sure that you're thinking about that first and foremost before you. And sometimes there is some, you know, something's happened, um, you know, whether they've gotten, um, sometimes what can happen is if they get an injury, the injury has been fixed, but they now associate holes with pain.

And so sometimes we have to go back and desensitize them to that and say, look, see, it doesn't hurt anymore. So we can do these again. Um, or something has happened in our training is, has kind of, you know, whittled away. And so we need to go back and take a look at that. But I always try to stress that people make sure somebody checks them first, that it's not an injury or something going on that way that's affecting their weave holes. Let's chat about the course for a minute. Um, it's called Love Them and Weave Them, right? So it's on the calendar for December, which this is coming out, I believe on the 16th of December. So registration will be open when this, um, comes out. What level of training should dogs and handlers have if they're interested in the class? Can you talk a little bit about that and, um, kind of what you'll cover, who it's designed for that kind of stuff? So, uh, for this class, the dog should already know weave holes. It moves a little too fast for a dog that doesn't know weave holes. Um, and I, I think later on in the year, Julie Daniels has a foundation weave class coming up and that would be the class for the dogs that don't know weave holes at all yet. But this one is for dogs that know weaves, but the handlers aren't in love with the performance, whether it's, um, you know, and it will address the, all the common problems. The, uh, going too slow, the, the inconsistent footwork, the missing the entry, but not the, or getting the entry, not being able to hang on, missing the entry, popping out a pull tent. It will actually address all of those things. It will also give you the independence so that you can put them in the weaves and leave them and get to where you need to go next. Um, and basically the kind of the way I think about my weave poles is when I send my dog through a tunnel, I want to just be able to say tunnel and know that they're going to come out the other end. I'm not expecting that they're going to try to dig out the middle of the tunnel or, you know, so I kind of want my weave poles to be the same way. When I send you in pole one, I expect to see you exit at pole 12 and I'm going to go do what I need to do. That's your job. I've got my job and we'll meet at the end. It's kind of my theory. And so that's what this course will teach. One last question. It's a question I've been asking everybody when they come back on. What's a lesson you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Probably to train the dog that's in front of you. You know, often we go out expecting to train one thing and the dog's telling us that they

need to work on something completely different. And we really have to listen to them and be flexible in what they need. Because if you think about it, they're the ones doing the hard work. They're the ones running and jumping and doing all of this crazy stuff. And, you know, oftentimes I go out with my plan of, you know, today we're going to go out and work on throttles. And my dog says, nope, today I'm struggling with my start line today. And so that's what we're going to end up working on. So, you know, you have to be willing to abort mission and listen to what the dog is telling you. And sometimes my dog says, you know what, I'm just not feeling it today. I just, and I say, all right, well, let's go play a game instead. Or let's go for a hike, you know, because I wake up some mornings and don't want to work and my dogs are no different. And so, you know, you really need to listen to your dogs and hear what they're trying to tell us. And also just to embrace and love the dog that you have and stop warning the dog that they're not. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Barbara. I love that. Thanks for having me. It's so much fun. It is. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Amy Cook to talk about noise sensitivity in dogs and what you can do about it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.